Why Are These Commanders So Unpopular?

[@kovala]

Jaya is such a cool commander and she’s gotten a *ton* of support in the last few years.

[@LucasSkyCarvalho]

Indeed, but in the currently "meta" of commander (I'm not talking about cEDH) she is not that much playable. You can discard some cards with madness to make advantage with her ability but if you are going to do a madness deck Anje Falkenrath is better. You can try a Flashback theme but it's not that good.

[@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514]

AND, she's hot as fck.

[@andrewfornes5320]

My friend has a budget build of her and hold his own against decks like my Angus Mackenzie, my other friend's Kaalia and my brother's Urza deck. Her discard to destroy a blue permanent is amazing with color change cards and untap effects.

[@XIIIHearts]

A big hurdle with Kaho is that with how his play from exile ability is worded, if say an opponent removes him before your next turn, those cards will remain in exile forever. If you blink him, his ETB will get you 3 new instants, and while you are allowed to play those 3 from exile, any other card previously exiled by him will be lost for the rest of the game because this Kaho is a new different object.

[@Commander_Claw]

I mean it would be OD if you could Blink her and keep the previous exiled and get a new 3....with Kaho in commander games is to be modest with her. Don't grab all 3 cards or 2 overly strong ones....she's a On Sight KO

[@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514]

It reads "you may play a card removed from with Kaho" the way it's worded implies that it should work at any point in the game. The problem is WotC stupidity.

[@Veelofar]

I remember I had a Jaya deck back in the day. It was a deck all around amplified damage. I joked a lot that it almost never lost, since I treated it as a bomb. If you double her last ability’s damage enough, you use it and everyone dies simultaneously, which is a draw. I only played it when everyone agreed to “sit on the bomb” which was basically an attempt to defuse the bomb. It sometimes worked.

[@wikidclowne6891]

Little trick with Kaho: If you have a counter in hand, search up another counter. Your opponents will notice the counter in exile and if you tap Kaho, they'll think you don't have one available and you can hit them with the one in your hand. Probably only work once though

[@tattooman3603]

Wow, never seen Vogar. Such a great card. Maybe not the best commander, but definitely an amazing card for the 99.

[@yavivanov6650]

Just a 4/4 menace, that MAYBE draws some cards, if it doesn't get exiled first. Meh

[@Tspang42]

@@yavivanov6650 nahhh that’s definitely a great pyoff spell in a sacrifice deck, each creature that was sexed before you sac it is just another card deeper when you sac him

[@TheBarvaz]

I built Jaya Ballard, task mage after she appeared in one of your underwhelming commanders videos. I have 15 decks from cedh to very casual and she's still one of my favourites

[@connorl0204]

My cousin is one of the 138 meloku decks! His deck was really fun to play a couple times with people that had never seen the deck, but after two or three games they wise up to the infinite turns gimmick (mystic sanctuary loops with turn spells that dont exile on resolution) and its surprisingly easy to set up the combo, even though its a land based combo in mono blue.

[@andrewfornes5320]

I have a Meluko deck that can spit its lands back into play with Retreat to Corahelm & Walking Atlas. I love not being punished for bouncing my lands and going infinite 1/1s seems a lot more fun than infinite turns. I'd love to play against his deck. Never played another Meluko in the wild lol.

[@connorl0204]

@@andrewfornes5320 usually, once the loop is presented, everyone just scoops it up, so it doesnt result in major feelbads. Since meloku gives you a way to close the game through during the combo, once its online if no one can interact with the initial go-round theres no point. A deterministic combo makes things much easier. And im not saying your infinite landfall combo ISNT deterministic or is in any way worse, just saying that it doesnt make for a wildly unfun game as a result doing it his way either. Its just a big puzzle both ways. I think mason also went this route because its sorcery speed because he likes the added challenge of having to work harder for the win.

[@jugsjapansunitedgamingsociety]

Vogar is a great shout both as a commander and in the 99. He is the commander of my current zombie deck and I’ve used him in my Yawgmoth deck

[@henrykilman9639]

I LOVE mono-colored decks, I have a white "Preston, the Vanisher" Deck, a black "The Raven Man" Deck that works around madness cards, and I'm working on a deck for each of the other colors!

[@benoitl.3606]

Kaho is probably one of my favorite decks. The best thing with her is that you have to be so open with your intentions that it's actually better to play more on the janky side if you don't want to be hard focused.

[@dynesaurus8264]

Kalitas has 238 decks, I thought he was going to say "it's recently come down in price, currently only $238"

[@CyclopsWasRight]

I like Dwynen, even if dropped into the 99, she's still a great addition to any elf deck.

[@strangebynature2798]

Brimaz pairs so well with Rune-tail, Kitsune Attentant. In fact it pairs so well I've made a Rune-tail deck loaded to the gills with Brimaz effects

[@noahwarp9]

My buddy runs a Zirilan deck, and it's a lot of fun. It's his personal pet deck, and he's tweaked it to an awesome degree.

[@theavatarkal]

I built Jaya back in 2012 as a mono red, artifacts, lifegain deck and its one of few old decks I've kept around since then. It's gotten a lot of good upgrades over the years.

[@jonaderjona5805]

Another good addition for Hedit Ojanen of Efrava is Verdant Mastery from Strixhaven. It's just so easy to give an opponent forests, but the payoff isn't really there. I originally had that deck and transformed it into an Abzan Elves deck centered around Yavimaya and Urborg that plays the two lords that give Elves Forestwalk as well as Filth, Karma and such.

[@jcbillman]

I play Jaya. She’s basically KOS at my table because she shuts down so many powerful commanders. She synergizes well with copy spells like Fork because you can discard for her ability or copy big stuff that’s important. Also works with cards like Invoke Calamity and Underworld Breach. Very spicy.

[@SiliconSicilian]

Brimaz, Kalitas, Meloku, and Kaho all had some legs at one point. Online trackers are just picking up hotness from the last few years. Patron of Orochi was seen a little in my area as well. Like the Zirilan tip as I don't really like red but have a lot of unused dragons that would be fun to try. Good video!

[@loxeggcheese]

I saw zuran at a pretty good price some months ago and gave it some serious thought. I think the big hindrance for it is that it’s a tutor in your command zone. Sure I throw in a tutor or 2 in a deck every once in awhile but having access to tutors every game is often a recipe for getting bored w a deck

[@golrakklestuff6861]

Zirilan of the claw surfers from a lot of similiarity with scion of the Ur Dragon:Can tutor dragons for one turn with a drawback. However, Zirilan is only one color, surfers from summoner sickness because of the tap ability and the ability is more expesive. + Scion of the Ur Dragon works with graveyard which is easier to play around than end of turn triggers

[@GagleDan]

i hope they revisit the spellshapper cards I would love to have a deck based around them, especially ones like Jaya who can do multiple things

[@christopherr7657]

I prefer mono-colored commanders. I appreciate the love for mono-colored decks and cards from Kamigawa. I also have a Zirilan of the Claw deck. It's a fun deck to play, and I recommend it.

[@chillinon3263]

I was actually just building Zirilan for a buddy at my LGS! Magda covers a lot of the same niche arguably a lot better, but the haste and tricks you can do to avoid the exile makes him an interesting build around even in 2023 Great vid

[@davidcardoso3525]

Love seeing Brimaz get some love. Brimaz is the first deck I built &, even as decks come & go, this one is still money, in my book.

[@bradtaasevigen9777]

How do you use his ability? I've always thought he was underwhelming. How powerful is an extra 1/1 a turn?

[@aham2903]

I ran Kalitas for a while. With a solid build capitalizing on his abilities, he's really fun and effective. his GY hate has made a difference in games so many times. I called him my "Blue-collar commander" because there's nothing flashy or crazy with him, he just shows up and gets to work.

[@shapooopiefour7173]

Could always make Jaya like a little bit worse Skirk Fire Marshall and give it Protection from Red. I think you only need to do that once, then you could slow everyone else down with the threat of her other abilities as they try to rebuild.

[@288kris]

My favorite deck to play is my mono-white Kitsune, rune-tail. It has 535 decks but it’s the only one I’ve ever seen. So much fun with halo fountain and strixhaven stadium win cons.

[@cteal2018]

my favorite part of "Offering" ability is the fact that you can "Flash" it into play.

[@AENock]

Vogar would ne sick with Contamination. Contamination is a 2B Enchantment; At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Contamination unless you sacrifice a creature. If a land is tapped for mana, it produces Black instead of any other type and amount. You hose greedy mana bases and you pump Vogar. Pestilence would also be incredible, and really flavorful. The deck builds itself and its so good!!

[@branhasknowidea]

My Jaya deck goes so hard. Been burn-link-ing with my 1980 Dumpster Dominatrix Bae for years now.

[@jlawsl]

Dwyenen was pretty popular back when it was first released, everyone just went to Elzuri or Kamahl for those type of effects.

[@Raistlin600]

I used to use Zirilan back in the day with safe haven in a reg 60 card deck. It was insanity at the time.

[@BloodSplatterArtist]

I used to run a jaya deck back in the day. Always liked to have at least 1 mono red EDH Deck and she was one I tried. This was over a decade ago though so it would probably get whiped by even a precon in today's meta.

[@RaubkatzHimself]

I think 7 years ago a friend of mine had a Meloku deck that was ridiculously strong, never seen one again. Highly recommend this commander

[@jamesthefront2246]

Dwynen is so great! She’s in my Rhys the Exiled Deck

[@nickmiller3748]

My roommate runs Kalitas. It’s a rough deck when he gets attrition down and run through your board for 1 black mana per creature

[@LTJ]

Love my Patron and Zirilan decks. Got the idea for the Zirilan one from this very channel...

[@Chinchillaman5]

I like the lifegain strategy in my black/green elves commander deck. Especially with black cards to take advantage of it.

[@Exterminatedslushie2]

So Demo, I’ve been trying to brew an Izzet cast from exile deck for a long time, and I’ve settled on the Strixhaven double faced Dean, rather than Ethuri, tormented prophet. Does Kaho count as a cast from exile effect and does this influence cards like Delayed Blast Fireball or 0 cost suspend cards can she effectively tap for 0 mana and cast a suspend card into play automatically?

[@Exterminatedslushie2]

@@shadowfate05 Thank you kindly for the answer! :) Useful to know

[@connorl0204]

If i were to make a guess as to why people arent making decks around brimaz and kalitas its because those two are so good in the 99 of a deck that they dont feel like they need to have them at the helm to experience it.

[@stevensecor465]

I have a kalitas deck. It's a zombie token deck. I like making him really big and putting whispersilk cloak on him. Lifelink is good. Makes it so I can run necropotence and graveborn muse

[@clintdejong]

patron of the orochi seems super fun. i found himin my storage and might build a deck around him ^_^

[@malikileefred6011]

I think there’s two main reasons these commanders don’t see much play. 1) They’re mono-colored. Some people like having multiple colors, I myself find that most of my favorite cards and pet cards (like cruel ultimatum) are gold. This just ends up making sort of niche mono colored commanders less played in the command zone, although I have played a lot of these guys in the 99. 2) Most of these guys are expensive (mana cost wise) with delayed effects. I’ve tried making a Jedit deck, but it just wasn’t fun having to pay six mana, wait a turn and then have my pay off just be a 2/2 that might be unblockable to one person. Same sort of thing with Zirilan, that’s 8 mana and two turns to cheat out a dragon, for one attack. For me personally I just don’t like commanders that take that long to activate, regardless of what the ability is.

[@mrnekomaneki01]

Your number 2 sounds about right. Unless you are in a super casual pod any of these 5 costing and more commanders are just to slow.

[@markcahalan5698]

Kalitas is similar to the new Nemata - all you need is a gravepact Patron of the Moon as a commander with a storm cauldron would be really funny

[@seanrostiser2355]

Can probably say the reason people don't play Kalitas is because most people would run it as a removal heavy deck and just exile everything their opponents play, which isn't very fun for the group. Just my opinion on it, because that's what I first thought about when you brought him up.

[@RoninWolfos]

Unspeakable Symbol would be fantastic for Vogar. Run a bunch of reanimate on death cards and some supplemental lifegain. 🎉

[@actiondk2279]

Jedit is one I like playing in games. And Snake basket would work great with the Patron.

[@CromwellMTG]

Jedit ojanen has been my favourite deck since i started playing in 2014 Bunch of green recursion and bomb enchanments with some control. Its only gotten better with yavimaya and green power creep

[@arceespot8145]

I liked the concept of Kaho, summoner of the unspeakable

[@Urvos]

Rhys the exiled gains life, similar to Dwynen, but is in golgari, being much better for life gain subtheme, and still has quite few decks, I think about 300

[@Boyahda]

My playgroup plays as written so when I use Spanish Meloku it makes 2/2 tokens.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

I agree that kalitas is super underrated but also people don’t like to play against it because it tends to lead to your opponents not having any creatures

[@riukenavatar8625]

Patron of the Orochi is nuts. You know why Prophet of Kruphix is banned? This isn't that dissimilar, especially if you build around instants, flash, and activated abilities.

[@Shimatzu95]

I actually just assuned kaho works like isochrom scepter, have to read up the specifics again.

[@vincentmaisonneuve6335]

one of my favorite unpopular commander for flavor and power, sengir, the dark baron

[@mrpinguimninja]

I've tried in the past to build a mono red control deck helmed by Jaya and a Blind Seer deck, but now I'm thinking of combining those two into one big chameleon control deck

[@Commander_Claw]

Never heard of chameleon control is that specific to a certain color?

[@mrpinguimninja]

@@Commander_Claw No, I was just being funny lmao, what I meant is that I'll try to build an EDH deck that has both Jaya and The Blind Seer as secret commanders and then use effects related to color hosing/hating in conjunction with their abilities to try to control the board

[@Commander_Claw]

@@mrpinguimninja to be honest that was a really cool term...it had me fooled CHAMELEON CONTROL...just look at it when you read it...I might have to make that into a video and coin the term

[@mrpinguimninja]

@@Commander_Claw that would be cool! If you do please link the video, and if I manage to brew this idea i'll send it to you!

[@Commander_Claw]

@@mrpinguimninja I'm saving your name now!

[@LionFighterX]

You didn't mention using Madness cards with Jaya!😊

[@BigDrew49]

I have Vogar in my Wilhelt deck and he's incredible. Lousy as a commander though as there's not much synergy for +1/+1 counters in a mono black deck.

[@andrewamann2821]

You could go with artifact-based development, and tap into black for a more aristocrats-centered archetype. Black may not have a huge amount of support for the counters, but the support that it does have is at least interesting...

[@PattyGoesZoom]

I made an Orochi deck after watching this video, and good lord it's insanely strong at a casual table. It runs away with the game in a single turn cycle if you can flash it in.

[@Rexcilious]

Kaho is now officially a project

[@Mid-Tyr]

Friend in my playgroup actually has a 50k+ Jaya commander deck

[@mathmagician5990]

I used to have a Brimaz deck. One of my strongest decks

[@ironman2818]

I think on a lot of these, power =\= fun to play with or against

[@THEN00BINATORX3]

my podmate has a kalitas deck. its a menace for sure

[@mrnekomaneki01]

Dwynen is a 99 card full stop. Because we are at the point where if you wanna run elf tribal there is one commander for it because it is just the best in all ways and since it is also a cheap card it is just what people run. I mean you can run other elf commanders but you are just doing a disservice if you don't run Lathrill as EDHrec suggests. You can run other elf commanders but it will always be suboptimal for elf tribal.

[@edhdeckbuilding]

some players like to build commander decks for reasons other than "it's the best"

[@orgazmo686971]

Dwynen and Patron of the Orochi - so I have 2 of these.

[@barrysetser3909]

Is Meloku sending you money for all the props you've given her over the years? I did finally getting around to at least putting together a decklist but have not built the deck yet. Least you brought me around to seeing her since I already pack a few mono blue decks (Minn, your Rayne deck and a Reality Chip one) and am mostly in tune with playing the Blue. I wonder if one of those 138 designs is mine? :)

[@bernhardeisl7382]

Just built a vogar deck the other week haha😊

[@issicsilva5502]

I noticed all these commanders are mono colored. My local groups have a tendency to shy away from mono colored commanders. Consensus being that multi colored commanders are just stronger with more variety.

[@CalicoSunstrider]

The Problem with Vogar is that he cost too much (€/$/etc.). Quit literal take his Commander Deck you made and replace him with Ghoulcaller Gisa. It will perform way much better.

[@ninjaman0003]

the main reason i don't play mono color is just how straightforward and boring they are. yes, i have a henzie "toolbox" torres deck, but i went with a twist of theming the deck around life and death. so the deck has tons of recursion creatures and life gain. popular, but somewhat different.

[@ryanrobot7975]

I find mono colored decks less straight forward personally but I usually do off color themes so I have to find creative ways to solve problems

[@jcalendar882]

Some of these used to be popular. People move on to the new thing that does it better. Any commanders that aren't "popular" from pre edhrec era are not uploaded or people don't make them. Anyone that relies on edhrec doesn't know how to do research as many people don't really update those decks or don't build it as there are better alternatives that people build. Most of these commanders have way too high of a cmc for today's meta.

[@jsoioioi8685]

Rule question for Spoils of War: if X = 3, am I understanding correctly that I can put 3 +1/+1 counters on as many creatures as I want? So if my board has 10 creatures, I can pay four mana and put 3 +1/+1 counters on all 10 creatures?

[@LadyTsunade777]

X is pre-set and cannot be chosen, so in your example you've got one opponent who has exactly 3 artifact and/or creature cards in their graveyard. You then cast Spoils of War for X=3, and when it resolves you get to distribute 3 +1+1 counters among up to 3 target creatures. (You can't "distribute" to more targets than there are counters, just the same as you can't target every creature and player all at once with Aurelia's Fury by only paying X=0 or X=1) In this example, you're putting out 3 total +1/+1 counters, not 3 per creature, because Spoils of War says "distribute" and not "each". Always check Scryfall or Gatherer for up to date official Oracle text for older cards, the Oracle text is the official rules text for any card, not what is actually printed on it.

[@jsoioioi8685]

@@LadyTsunade777 Got it. Thank you

[@DigitalinDaniel]

I love all the Game-Night exclusives, but I wont be getting them until they are printed in non-foil. I think Dwynen is just too easily and cheapy outclassed by Marwyn. I like Kaho but once you play him you quickly realize how rough it is to do so, if only returning to the battlefield recognized previously exiled cards... or if he could just cast anything from exile in general.

[@deadNdivine12]

Kaho.. I can see why it's not popular. Only playable if you're gonna run the free counterspells maybe include vanishing(aura) Maybe just maybe I'll build a deck for it.

[@norrock1]

Kaho and zirilan both sound interesting

[@lracseroom8286]

I feel like Vogar is unpopular because Mono B is a real bad color for plus one counters. Too many hoops to jump through and suboptimal cards you would have to run to make the deck really tick.

[@animebrezel1272]

Vogar vs Kothophed Kinda the same but different, vogar is better for decks that want to sacrifice i'ts own creatures with stuff like ashnods alter instead of Kothophed who just wants to kill every opponents creature and gives you carddraw for doing nothing if an opponent sacrifices treasures or fetch lands

[@olafthemoose9413]

Brimaz suffers from adeline existing. Both cards are very similar but adeline is just better at it for the most part.

[@dominicmetzger3246]

Maho feels like a trap and probably why it isn’t popular at all. You get your combo, and someone just removes or blinks Maho and all those cards are exiled forever. Eventually you’ll run out of useful cards.

[@Kuehnpiano]

Greel, mind raker next 😊

[@owenmachin1862]

Rhys the Exiled is a better version of Dwynen. even though he doesn't see much play either that's definitely why Dwynen doesn't have many decks

[@WindchaserX]

Vogar's unpopularity is due to supply issue. No one really buys Game Night boxes.

[@scottricks1676]

My adhd ass can’t brew over 2 colors. I get very overwhelmed by the options. If I do brew 3 colors it’s always very heavily swayed to one or two colors.

[@tylerb2523]

i mean most of these commanders are great as part of the 99, not many people are going to look at brimaz and say wow i love tokens so im not going to play adeline

[@bossibozz3528]

Its just a pain to play against kalitas. He has the same problam kaervek the spitefull has. You can plan him in some matchups, as you just shut down some decks and they HAVE to kill you to even play the game no matter what the others are doing. Also when your gameplan is soley to kill opponents creatures they will stop playing them. Been there tried that. No fun for anyone. Was the first commander i build.

[@urahara64360]

I personally like Dwyen better in the 99

[@dominicmetzger3246]

Mono colored commanders are some of the worst is probably why. Less options = less power. Of course a very very small subset of mono colored ones are great, it’s just rare.

[@Neiscience]

whoo yeah!

[@The.QuasiOG]

Oh-Row-Chee

[@bradtaasevigen9777]

Brimaz sucks though. How is maybe 2 1/1s (that puts brimaz at risk) a turn good

[@edhdeckbuilding]

you could try building around it.

[@yanncatt]

Demo, i love ya but it's pronounced Patron of the ohr-oh-chee

[@amelialouma4762]

"play less colours" Well I'm building Tiamat so, not today sir.

[@LadyTsunade777]

Basically, there's two main reasons Legendary Creatures are far less popular as commanders: 1. There's other flat out better commanders in the same and/or more colors for the same strategy. 2. They work far better in the 99 and far worse as the actual commander. and these reasons are often interconnected. Vogar: there's so many other far better aristocrats commanders and other much better card draw sources. High mana cost, only counts deaths during your turn, and has to die himself to draw cards. Dwynen: as you point out, there's several other far better Elf tribal commanders, both in mono-G and multicolor. Lifegain is trivial in EDH unless it is your direct wincon (Felidar Sovereign, Test of Endurance, etc), and other commanders do that far better. Brimaz: used to be decent, but fell off over time. Mono-white tokens has far better commanders now. Jaya: I can kinda agree on her, because she is quite fun and unique, but there are other commanders for similar strats. Madness has Anje, mass damage has Firesong and Sunspeaker, etc. Jedit Ojanen: 6 mana for a 5/5 that is _occasionally_ unblockable and creates a single 2/2 per turn with no other effects is _horrible._ There's just no way around it. Kalitas: just better in the 99. Grave hate is abundant enough for all colors now, and if you really want grave hate in the command zone, Anafenza is a better option. Meloku: as you mentioned, great in older standard/modern, but bad in EDH. 5 mana for a 2/4, plus paying 1 mana and bouncing a land to create a 1/1 token is pretty bad, especially with other more recent mono-U token makers like Talrand and Deekah. Flying tribal is also better in WU. Patron of the Orochi: great in the 99, not so good as commander. Zirilan: thanks to Dragons being in all colors now, much better in the 99 and far worse as commander. Even in mono-R Dragons there's better, like Lathriss. Kaho: far worse thanks to the fact that you instantly lose the exiled Instants forever as soon as he leaves the field, because the exiled cards are linked to that one specific instance of Kaho. Also, Kaho can only use each Instant _once_ since he has you cast the original card, which then puts it onto the stack and then into the grave, so he can't use the same exiled card unless you go through several hoops. Zethi is a straight-up better Instants commander thanks to the fact you have access to all the exiled Instants all game, as well as an additional color.

[@benoitl.3606]

You're kinda missing the point. Its true that these commanders have better alternatives in term of raw power, but if raw power where the only criteria, we would all be playing T&T or 5 color nonsense. They are all doing something unique that, for most of them, no other commander is straight up better for. For example, I played with both Zethi and Kaho and they don't have the same gameplay - at all. They are not even comparable imo. With Kaho, you can afford to play cards useless unless paired with another card, since you can tutor for the pair, like downpour + siren's call or reins of power + synthetic destiny. You can even go even more jankier with untappers, like polymorphist jest + twincast + peer pressure. And the instant being exiled doesn't really matter if you have both tutored protection spells (shore up

[@ryanrobot7975]

We aren't playing CEDH everyone of these cards brings something to the table that would make a deck with them different from others and makes them fun in different ways, that's why people play them. I have a Taniwha deck I know it's a bad card but nothing else plays like it so I love that deck

[@davemcduringo4377]

Kaho is disgusting if you put any effort into "what 2 or 3 instants do I want to repeatedly find, cast in sequence, recycle and repeat the whole 2 card combo", and use the third card to recycle the lot of them. 1-2-3 punch instant combos. The list seems endless once you get on this path.

[@Murwiz]

Why is Brimaz almost $20?

[@edhdeckbuilding]

he gets played in legacy.

[@Murwiz]

@@edhdeckbuilding ahh ... that's a meta I'm entirely ignorant of.

[@AngoDecay]

you must be joking with jedit

[@joshrobinson2409]

I always wonder why some call commander him or he when they are clearly female characters dwynen has boobs he is a she lol

[@bisowa8883]

To be honest I think that these guys aren't popular because most of them are pretty boring

[@longdangley]

vogar is just slow and tbh bad