Why Are Unpaid Internships Still Legal? Defending the Indefensible - How Money Works

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Nobody likes needing to go to work, but we do it because it puts money in our pockets and food on our tables, and hey if you can find a job that you don’t totally hate to fill this requirement that’s great.
But what about jobs that you aren’t paid for at all?
Unpaid internships rightfully attract a fair bit of scrutiny in modern corporate America.
Many say that these roles effectively amount to slave labor, where scummy companies are able to take advantage of free workers to do the menial tasks that they would have otherwise had to employ an office secretary for.
Even the best unpaid internship programs at high end technology companies have their critics, for some pretty valid reasons.
And you know, on the surface this looks pretty cut and dry.
A worker should get an honest compensation for an honest days work, that’s just fair, but what if that compensation didn’t come in the form of a pay check?
Well it’s time to learn how money works by defending the indefensible and looking how unpaid internships of all things could actually be the answer to a lot of the problems facing our modern workforce.
#LaborCrisis #Careers #HowMoneyWorks
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[@HowMoneyWorks]

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[@sauron7839]

"Unpaid Internships" are basically old style apprenticeship without guaranteed entry into a guild at the other end.

[@chrisjackson1215]

Perfectly said! Unpaid internships are absolutely fine: if you get the promised reward for doing well. People don't get their reward anymore - or at least not enough of one.

[@archmad]

i think you missed the point of internship. it's not about the entry to the company, but an entry to the industry. would you rather hire few people for their experience, and outsource the mundane tasks to India and just let no experience people work and make a mess and just make experienced people leave.

[@PaleGhost69]

@@archmad No they would rather hire a family member of a higher up.

[@Miranox2]

There is never a guarantee even in old style apprenticeships. It always depends on whether the apprentice is competent enough.

[@DaxVerus]

@@archmad people follow money, people also follow where they feel wanted, paid according to their work and accomplished. You can gain skilled labor and you can earn skilled people by paying them still. Outsourcing is not the answer unless you want to make every possible dollar and NOT a strong business. The problem with modern day capitalism is not that people do not know how to run a business, it is that people want to make as much money from it, and not make the best business they could. If I had to outsource to make ends meet, I would let my team and workers know, not just do it. But too many people outsource to cut corners and make more money each quarter so they can retire early, sell the business while inflated, or keep the largest cushion possible at the cost of upsetting employees, support teams, and customers. That hurts the business in the long run and while you get more money sooner, you get less overall money in the long run more often than not. The problem is the unpaid side of it. Pay the intern, guarantee some level of compensation, a position, etc. Greedy people exploited what used to be a simply volunteer position for college kids in their last semesters. The kids would volunteer the time as much as they WANTED not as much as the company demanded. It is not what it started as and has now become exploitation

[@FinancialShinanigan]

If I wanted to get people coffee without getting paid, I'd just work for my parents.

[@Chris-es3wf]

Except your parents are effectively paying you 10s of thousands in food, shelter, etc.... maybe stop being so entitled?

[@Capitanvolume]

@@Chris-es3wf they signed up for those expenses when they chose to have kids.

[@gonzalomorales5605]

Gladly, no one is forcing you to take those unpaid jobs.

[@NathanCassidy721]

@@gonzalomorales5605 Depends on the parents.

[@johnallenbailey1103]

@@gonzalomorales5605 uh, they kind of are.

[@behrensf84]

The problem with unpaid internships is that only rich people can afford to only be paid in experience...

[@RetrocadePodcast]

Yup. No one who needs income for basic necessities can afford an unpaid job, therefore unevenly leaving that internship (and experience and skill that one may acquire from it) to only the already well off.

[@alicea5]

Or someone whose living expense is covered for by someone else and can be on welfare. I work for the county so I have had clients who live with parents or their partner who pays all their living expense and client will be eligible for Foodstamp because even if person has no expense, they have $0 income, and they r not paid for the work they do so we can’t count that as income.

[@ianlittle1653]

@@alicea5 People with internships cannot get food stamps or welfare because they do not meet the work requirement

[@swimminginthecesspoolofstu2070]

RICH do NOT take unpaid internships

[@alicea5]

@@ianlittle1653mmm-in my county, if they don’t meet the student requirement then they will have to meet the work requirement of working paid 20 hours per a week (this only currently apply to students. If a non student applied with $0 income - they r eligible with no work requirement). Some foodstamp regulations truly make me wonder which group is it benefiting.

[@ajr4698]

Within the world of conservation and marine biology, unpaid internships have practically become a requirement to get any form of paid work. Stats to vary but the general rule is that you need to do about 3 unpaid internships to land an entry level job (and this is on top of your bachelor's and masters). A typical internship is usually 3 months to 6 months. So you're looking at a minimum of 9 months of full time unpaid labour. And often you have to pay just to turn up. So it means that unless you have parents able to pay your living expenses and for the internship itself (usually in the order of £1000 a month) then getting into this industry is nearly impossible. And the industry has the audacity to complain about a lack of diversity.

[@mfk833]

Thank you 👏👏👏 and you know what I found even funnier? It's when recruiters say: for this entry level job underpaid, with 70h working week : you need to have 3 years experience. But.... Internship doesn't count as a real experience.

[@sillysailor5932]

Why does everyone jump to rich parents. I dont have those I still did internships. I worked minimum wage for a long time before and saved.

[@mfk833]

@@sillysailor5932 in France, minimum wage is 1200€. Imagine, you have a business degree, 30 thousand to 60 thousand student loans. That you reimburse: 550 to 650€ per month. You have like, 600€ left ? Housing is very very very expensive in France. Particularly near Paris. That's why we don't have that much home owner. So, to this 600€ left, you have like 400€ going to housing (let's say that you have hdlp from the state, which won't happen because they don't give it when you earn the minimum wage -> because housing is way more expensive). You still have 200€ : 40 goes to transportation (if you have a car it will be sooo expensive that it is not possible for you to have one). 60 goes to electricity bills, mandatory assurances, phone bills, internet bills. Let's say, you may still have like. 60€ for food ? There is about 30 days in a month. Authorities say that a person (alone) need in average : 7€ per day to eat correctly, with only home cooked meals (you cannot afford eating out). Do you see the problem? 7€ per day x 30 days = 210€. But you only have 60€ remaining. Do you understand the problem? Just for the pleasure, I'm gonna give you somme exemple of how food is expensive in France: around 90cents for a small bag of pasta. 1€ the bread baguette. 5€ for a middle range piece of steak (not good quality). 3€ the kilo of tomatoes. 5€ two pieces of corn. Do you understand how life is expensive in France? Come here as a tourist, and you will see how your money will be flying away. So yeah, we're gonna talk about the rich parents. And I think what you're saying is actually really funny. Because even the people in France with rich parents, won't do an unpaid internship. Because this is slavery. As an intern, I was often working until 9pm, 10pm, 11h30 pm was the worst I did. And I was doing the same jobs as the employees. So let me laugh. And I was only paid "500€". You cannot do much with it.

[@sillysailor5932]

@@mfk833 I live in Edinburgh 400 euros for rent sounds cheap to me. Might move to Paris. Not to mention if you are eating any kind of steak- even mid range steak- you can't complain about being unable to save. I love steak but it isn't exactly a necessity nobody died from not having enough steak.

[@mfk833]

@@sillysailor5932 that's exactly what I said if you carefully read what I wrote. That this is totally imaginative because you cannot really find such a cheap price for housing anywhere near Paris. That's why I said, let's imagine that you have help from the state to help you pay your rent. And why are you talking about me personally? I was giving examples of what is the cost of food in France 😂 I'm almost never eating meat personally. Maybe, once every couple of months 😂 I don't see what you're trying to prove here. My discourse was pretty much clear. I was giving a figurative exemple to serve my argumentation 🤦‍♀️ so not, my personal case.

[@marlonsubuyu2012]

Internships should pay at least something, everyone has to eat, pay for transportation. It's not easy

[@genericytprofile852]

Yeah I mean like even minimum wage is better than nothing tbh. And if you saved beforehand it can really help carry you along.

[@jimziemer474]

Internships are part of your education. It’s a good way to build experience and contacts. Internships are not meant to be long term jobs and generally are relatively short. It’s a way for businesses to help others.

[@dzulaimin2473]

@@jimziemer474 so the student need to eat rocks and sticks to survive the internship?

[@tomy3116]

They should definitely be paying, but I think quite a lot of them are unpaid rather than low paid because of labor regulations, which may effectively turn them into employees, even if they might not be hiring the intern at the end of their internship.

[@ianlittle1653]

@@jimziemer474 How do you pay your rent during this "education"

[@financeclubyt]

I think a few hundred dollars for internships would be great. The company's don't need to pay a lot but I think 0$ is problematic

[@OopsAllFrench]

In my experience, stipend internships already make up a lot of the paid internships too. Even a small stipend can help the negotiations become more reasonable as I’ve seen month long positions for a few hundred dollars that, while they don’t pay min. wage nor grant any benefits, allow expectations to be realistic in what will get done, what someone will learn, & allow people that really sync well the change to join as a junior employee more quickly

[@0Clewi0]

we have laws for college internships as they're part of the curriculum, the absolute minimun is even at $0 to provide transportation and food, or compensation for not providing them, and how much could you be paid depends on the area of study, and that's just for 1-2 months during the summer.

[@bonnibbel6177]

@@OopsAllFrench 999

[@floridaman318]

It's gonna get to the point where we will have to pay an up front fee to any potential employers to work for them. Oh and don't forget an application or processing fee.

[@HowMoneyWorks]

You joke but there are such things as internships that you need to pay for.

[@sownheard]

That's literally the dutch higher educational system. We pay. To than be forced to work 8 months for free. Or we won't pass our school year. And if you don't pass the job you worked for for multiple months won't even look at you. 😂 It's peak scam

[@CantoniaCustoms]

Can't get a job without paying for an internship, can't pay for the internship without a job, such is life.

[@stevenroshni1228]

Some majors (for example teachers) the last year of tuition paying study is teaching in a classroom almost full-time.

[@linkingwithnaz1295]

There are jobs where they charge you for an internship

[@donaldmark177]

People are complaining about employee wages and this is the more reasons to start your own business. Even if its something small, make yourself your own ceo... Nevertheless Investments are easiest means to accumulate money .

[@michaelmark7929]

Agreed 💎

[@derekjohn4770]

I'd same mentally! hahaha, but not everyone is bred to build a business.

[@steceymorgan6156]

Hello!! My name is Teresa. I'm 25 yrs old Portuguese and still living in Portugal. At the moment I'm studying more than investing. I don't have much money but I'll start investing heavily this month. Thanks dude and I really appreciate 🥰. I wish to gain financial freedom at least 30....

[@cbarnes5108]

Most entrepreneurs fail. We only see the success stories in media. For each of them there are 4-5 failures where people got wiped out. You can become wealthy as an entrepreneur or an employee. The risk profile however is very different between the two. For the vast majority of people working a high nd low paying career, investing wisely is the best and quickest path to wealth.

[@donaldmark177]

@@cbarnes5108 that percent is because people start a business and put no effort into it, no time into, not much money into it or it generally being a pretty uncompetitive ideas like selling iphone cases. If you put the time, money, commitment and with the right mentor/broker, then you're not playing odds, you're just taking risk, it's not like the lottery where its a predictable percentage of odds.. its based on 100 factors.

[@davehoghead]

The single most important skill from Engineering undergrad was learning how to learn. Knowing what you don’t know and how to approach problems. I haven’t worked in my field at all, and taught many coworkers. Still think co-op or interns should be paid though. It’s a bad manager who can’t get value out of their interns

[@Chris-es3wf]

Interns aren't there to add value in the immediate... if you can add value as an intern then you're probably at a retail store or low skill job

[@cmdr1911]

Couldnt agree more. I am a mechanical engineer by education and a heavy civil engineer by trade. I could use CAD and read plans. They said good luck and i have been out here for a decade now. Learning by doing and figuring out as I go. Learn to problem solve and be flexible

[@cmdr1911]

@@Chris-es3wf I doubled the production of a PHD electrical engineer. He couldnt do anything with a computer. But drew by hand. I turned all his napkin drawings into plan sets people could actually use

[@Mischu708]

I could afford to pay the rent because i worked part time in the internship in my field

[@Chris-es3wf]

@@cmdr1911 what does that have to with interns?

[@igormarcos687]

As a senior developer companies already abuse us by requesting "tests" that are basically you doing some task for them for free, sometimes a fully fledged monetized feature. Imagine what the beginners have to go through. The way to solve is making unpaid labor illegal again (I thought it was already).

[@Sanscripter]

Yeah whenever those show up I just pass

[@lemetwe3401]

As a senior developer, you should have zero problems declining any job that "needs" such test. There is enough demand.

[@errrzarrr]

The issue with this is is becoming a trend where free-laborers are taken advantage of and in exchange they get nothing useful for them -not relationships that are worth of (toxic environment), not gaining technical skills, nothing really useful for them to profit later. They doing boring mind-dumbing paper work, carrying coffee cups and such. Even worse, paid workers are being compared to these guys to push salaries down.

[@akivaweil5066]

How is your grammar so bad even after editing the comment?

[@nicolasmiani750]

it's still their choice, it might be a bad one, but it's not up to you to decide their choices, only the, their family and friends. If you want to be everyones guardian, you'd have to go down a rabbit hole too deep to support this logic, because to make it valid, you'd have to apply it to every other aspect of peoples life.

[@sillysailor5932]

If it was just free labour to taking advantage of it would disappear. Do you want to be free labour that is taken advantage of? Of course not. If interns weren't getting something out of it they wouldn't do it.

[@skyranger1366]

@@sillysailor5932 Yes Massa I do enjoy having all the fruits of my labor being given to someone else.

[@akivaweil5066]

@@blakejohnson3864 You are a hypocrite for also spending the 5 seconds required to write a comment. Perhaps you should stop correcting people and get a life. + his comment was close to unreadable when I originally commented.

[@GiantFrog]

The benefits of an unpaid internship are great, for the people who can afford to continue existing in this mortal realm with no income. My greastest criticism, apart from companies possibly abusing the system, is that it further divides the poor from the wealthy. I don't think it's the government's place to foot the bill with financial assistance while companies don't pay their lowest workers. It's already far cheaper to pay a good hourly rate without benefits!

[@FriedPlacentaBurger]

I use the logic from Goodfellas, “F**k you, pay me.”

[@NathanCassidy721]

I have a better one that I follow: “If you’re good at something, don’t do it for free.”

Unpaid internships are beneficial when you actually learn and they dont just use you for cheap labour

[@floridaman318]

Or if they actually lead to a job.

[@JessicaMiller-pc4dj]

But they will only ever benefit youngsters who live at home or those with parents who have money to support them - hence, freezing out everyone else who doesn't have these options, which creates more inaquality.

[@sownheard]

Good luck rolling that dice.🎲 Sadly most won't be so lucky

[@rivulet5417]

*Free

[@cocoacoolness]

I may be biased but I like how in Australia if you do an unpaid internship you can't do productive work and that it must be clear that there is a meaningful learning experience for the interns. If you are just doing coffee runs you probably aren't learning anything

[@MrNemitri]

The only time that I can justify paying 0$ for labor would be if its a special project to graduate, otherwise it's just modern slavery.

[@sownheard]

Yup

[@brad7944]

Even worse. A master had to feed his slave and give him a roof, while employer doesn’t

[@kingknog9318]

@@brad7944 you still have time to delete this

[@alphacentauri1760]

@@kingknog9318 Once it goes online, it can’t be deleted.

[@nicolasmiani750]

sure, slavery, where the person has the free choice to go into such internship or not, and when they are in it, they can leave. Comparing owning a human being to a young person doing maybe a bad decision is not the best argument. If you want to make a difference in this, build a company and pay your interns what you think they deserve.

[@ninjabastard]

any company that can't even pay minimum wage so the intern can at least live somewhere, is a company you dont want to work for. the unpaid internship could potentially give you good skills but it likely wont since the fact its unpaid already conveys a lot of information about the company's value to the intern for his time. I would like to see an analysis of how often an unpaid internship actually helped and how much more likely you would get one vs a paid one. Theres still a cost to set up an unpaid internship for the company, (supervisor time, computer, etc. ) to the point those costs dont justify the minimal incremental savings of not paying 60-100 dollars a day. i doubt a company can utilize endless unpaid interns for anything relevant because you have to really manage them or they just go off the rails and can take down major systems. in my experience, it takes about 10%-20% of the teams time for a few months before you can really trust an intern to not fuck up. i would think a company which is trying to find good workers would have better retention of its interns paying them through their internship because stiffing an employee for a few thousand dollars really doesnt inspire loyalty to stick around when another company makes an offer. I think that is the goal of having an internship right? An employee and employer get a trail relationship together where they both get something and if it works out they continue it. Because if the employer is teaching or building company relationships for an intern, then again, you're going to lose them after the internship if you dont pay them during the internship. If its not teaching or relationships, then why should the intern stick around without pay? In your own video, you didnt stick around after the unpaid internship which in my mind is a failure of the employer since they just sunk a bunch of money into training you which another employer benefits from. you might have made some valuable work but then couldnt they have just paid a little to not lose the training costs? If you assume the intern is going to leave, the value for an intern is things that they can do without supervision which is coffee and other menial bs.

[@majorfallacy5926]

I didn't find this one too convincing. Training on the job has worked before unpaid internship were a thing, and was arguably even more effective. But we're now in a work culture where companies don't invest in their staff anymore, so anyone who can afford it now has to do it themselves. But since not everyone can afford to invest in themselves, I'd argue this leads to an overall loss of productivity in society since medium skill jobs don't profit from the flexibility that this kind of work culture facilitates all that much

[@majorfallacy5926]

@@a.k8069 yeah I don't disagree at all, except that there are ways to at least mitigate the issue, which countries with more social democratic roots than the US show. It's also legit to just view internships as an extension of the education system (as long as they fulfill certain standards) and have the state subsidize them by boosting wages of trainees beyond what employers are willing to pay for unskilled labour. It's also not like interns are worthless by definition, I'm starting an internship right now and it pays the same as working as a cashier would. At least where I live, unpaid internships are only really a thing in highly competitive fields with an oversupply of labour, but with an engineering degree my employer basically expects me to be productive within a month or so, albeit to a lesser degree than someone with more experience (who gets paid more)

[@johnallenbailey1103]

As a social worker with a bsw and msw, I worked for free for almost 2 years.. it's ridiculous and didn't help me get any closer to a decent job.

[@zerohero5753]

For the pay you are getting in that field I don't think expensive education is worth it. Most people are either volunteering or being underemployed because they couldn't land a position in the medical field with their Psychology certification. Should have chosen something more lucrative.

[@sophiasoto1405]

The mental health field pays too low and employers always take advantage of good people. It makes a Masters degree overpriced.

[@johnallenbailey1103]

@@zerohero5753 that's was 5 months ago. Now I have 2 jobs, 50$ an hour and 70$ an hour. I'm about to clear 6 figures this year.

[@TrangThu-hb9iy]

@@johnallenbailey1103 if you don’t mind, what’s your job now?

[@johnallenbailey1103]

@@TrangThu-hb9iy I'm a behavioral therapist

[@Mekias]

I actually got into my entry level IT job through a 2 month training boot-camp where they paid for my hotel room and gave me a $25k salary (this was 20 years ago). I had to apply for this and it wasn't a guarantee of long-term employment but, looking back, I got incredibly lucky. I couldn't have afforded to do an unpaid internship.

[@arandajose20]

25k for two months? That amazing, unfortunately today it seems like the power has shifted way to far into the corporations/wealthy and regular people get shafted.

[@jeffbenton6183]

Interesting commentary. I'd be interested in your opinion on studies that found that people who completed paid internships were more likely to receive a job from that company than people who completed an unpaid internship (and that there was no statistically significant difference between people who didn't intern at all from those who did unpaid internships)

[@dracsharp]

The problem is with the incentive. Yes an employer is encouraged to take full advantage of you, but if they bother teaching you, then they may even lose money on you. An employer is encouraged to keep their interns unempoyable. They might be good people, but it's in their interest not to be.

[@smithynoir9980]

"They might be good people, but it's in their interest not to be." Then they simply aren't good or decent people, no matter how much they would like to believe they are. A good person does not use 'its in my best interest' to exploit someone.

[@johncasey5594]

I personally would never work for free. People have a choice. You can choose to not accept unpaid internships and eventually the employers will need to rethink their position on unpaid internships.

[@crazymonkey60123]

It wouldn't be a problem if people had common sense and not accept unpaid jobs

[@BTrain-is8ch]

@@crazymonkey60123 People complain about unpaid internships because they can't afford to take them and they feel that puts them at an unfair disadvantage compared to people that can. People always look at this from a "companies pay laborers" perspective rather than the "laborers charge companies" perspective. Companies are forced to pay what laborers charge. Price floors distort the market and steal competitive advantage from laborers that can make the numbers work.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

@@BTrain-is8ch Define "make the numbers work"?

[@deb5392]

The problem is in thinking of a internship as a job. It's not. If you have an unpaid internship in the US, by law the arrangement is supposed to be more to the intern's credit than the company. The projects you work on are not supposed to replace paid labor. If you are following the law, an unpaid internship costs time and resources that the company will not recoup. Saying that a unpaid internship (following legal guidelines) should be paid is like saying students should be paid to attend their classes. Paid and unpaid internships are two different things.

[@johncasey5594]

@@crazymonkey60123 Absolutely!!! But alas some do and then blame capitalism, greedy rich, etc. for their woes and not their lack of spine, no ball sack, lack of self respect for themselves, their time, etc.

[@arthurgolovanevsky680]

As someone who had 9 internships (5 unpaid), I completely experienced the benefit that unpaid internship gave (it led to paid internships and eventually to a great job despite financial crisis). However, I also saw what happens when unpaid internships become more common: their value decreases. We had UBS and Merrill Lynch running “internships mills” in their wealth management departments. It almost never resulted in full time job and had very little prestige on the resume. In the meanwhile few prestigious unpaid internships were as difficult to get as a full time job, which kind of defeats the purpose.

[@abisek.e7636]

How money works having one of the best series on KZbin by financial youtubers

[@HowMoneyWorks]

Thanks for the kind words :)

[@KamikazeMedias]

@@HowMoneyWorks can I translate all your content for local language of mine? Your stuff is the best simplified economy vid. So i kinda want to show it to others but ppl are too lazy to check the english internet. Asking for permission

[@abisek.e7636]

@@KamikazeMedias ask in Twitter or some other personal social media idk think he will see it in here

[@KamikazeMedias]

@@abisek.e7636 idk Man i already sent him an email

[@KamikazeMedias]

@@abisek.e7636 i don't use Twitter its toxic

[@perveilov]

If we're going to defend "unpaid internship" as morally acceptable, then I can't wait two decades from now where "you need at least master's degree and three years of experience in related field" for a janitorial or clerk work. I'm sorry, but why we allowing the set of entry level work bar to be so goddamn high?

[@CantoniaCustoms]

"You need to pay 70k per year and have prior work experience for this internship"

[@kingknog9318]

Supply and demand, more people go to college and get a degree, the higher the standards become to weave out applications

[@kittenwizard4703]

@@kingknog9318 if a majority of people can't get work because of the supply and demand model of the economy, I think we need to really consider if we should reconsider how supply and demand works, the population is only gonna get larger, and if there are so many people that a majority can't even get into the workfield, we need a way to help them survive, almost like some sort of welfare

[@kingknog9318]

Innovation and invention is how you help. Supply and demand is not a human construct, it’s a fact of life and will always be there as long as scarcity exist. Think of it like this 50 years ago having a highschool diploma could get you a job anywhere. There was less supply of people and many never graduated highschool. When education got better more people applied to those jobs, so now companies raised its standards to a college degree to lower its selection pool. That’s less man hours to find a new employee and a better chance to hire someone more qualified.

[@matteomarino3511]

@@kittenwizard4703 No welfare, I'm not paying taxes to feed other people. My money is MINE

[@NathanCassidy721]

I kinda agree to a point as I feel experience is more valuable early on in your professional life. Proving that you know what you are doing and the potential of having companies with prestige on your resume is going to make it easier to sell yourself to potential employers. BUT there is the saying, “If you’re good at something, don’t do it for free.”

[@HowMoneyWorks]

- The Joker (Batman The Dark Knight)

[@mordet2]

But isn't the point that when you need an internship, which is when you start out, you're not good at that something yet.

[@NathanCassidy721]

@@mordet2 Technically yes. But if you're smart about it, you can trick an employer in thinking they are getting a good deal when they are actually paying for your training. Fake it until you make it.

[@Corgiking521]

I think a problem I have with these unpaid internships is that they primarily can only benefit people who’s parents are paying all of their expenses while in college. I always had to support myself in school and work full time and there is no way I could take unpaid work. I would miss out on the opportunity solely because I didn’t have enough money for it.

[@kamilareeder1493]

My industry basically requires internships 😪😪 it was horrible i essentially had 3 jobs and they said my attention seemed divided and unfocused 🙃🙃🙃. Paying me would have bought back time

[@Jasta85]

Unpaid internships depend completely on the company/environment you're placed in for the value you get out of them. Yes you certainly could develop relevant skills and connections, or you could spend months at the photocopier and running coffee around the office with nothing to show for it. It's a gamble on whether you'll get anything useful out of all that time spent.

[@user-ve3bs2ye7w]

I’ve worked a few unpaid internships, and I have to say that they are generally more understanding and flexible. Can’t make it today? That’s okay! You work for free? A coworker will get you lunch just for coming. I’ve made a few good connections and I don’t regret my unpaid internships. Before anyone asks, no, I was not financially stable. I drove in a car that was on the verge of breaking down.

[@LincolnOlson]

An unpaid internship was a game-changer for me, but it was on my terms - I offered to be unpaid. It got me in the door at a place I really wanted to work at and I was able to prove my worth that at the end of the first month I was hired full time, not to mention all the experience I got along the way. Very underrated...

[@burhanuddinsakarwala5033]

Yeah this seems great... until you encounter the situation in India today, where you pay to be hired for the Internship. Countries like India are so overcrowded that Engineers now pay to be hired for Internships. Even after paying around 400 dollars worth, you may not be selected for the Internship.

[@TumblinWeeds]

Wasn’t there a high school kid on Reddit who got a lot of downvotes for asking if he should take a six figure salary job or go to college. And then they looked into his history and he actually wasn’t bluffing. He just started coding at 12 and did 5 unpaid internships in high school. He said if you ask around underfunded startups, a surprising amount are willing to take a high school kid if it’s free. And let’s face it, almost no one’s gonna give a 12 year old (or even an 18 year old) a paid full time professional job even if they’re great at what they do. But this kid became the exception because he had 3 years of work experience at 18 from mucking around a few hours a week, at an age where you have too much free time anyway. I wish I’d been like this kid. Even a little bit of work experience, like a single month, would have made finding my first job so much easier.

[@Komyets]

I really like the little hidden messages you place in the subtittles, also thise whole series of videos is incredibly entertaining and educating!

[@cmdr1911]

I was a mechanical engineering intern in yhe electrical department. They paid/used me as a drafts man to doing all their electrical diagrams and design cases. They paid 13 bucks an hour. I got college credit. Their PHD in electrical engineering that couldnt use email got the help he needed and I was ignorant enough to be unable to steal company secrets. Good times.

[@DD-ko1nn]

I appreciate the alternative view. Thanks for giving me something to think about and keep up the great work.

[@AlexSantF]

I'm currently working as an IT intern and I get paid a little less than the minimum wage. If it's already difficult for me, I can't imagine what it is like for people that don't even get paid.

[@joshuaciresoli2927]

I got offered an unpaid apprenticeship for skilled labor as I was working on completing my tech college certificates. I politely declined th offer of sixty hours weekly for no pay, as I would have to buy the tools, pay for gas, and pay for a cooler all with no reimbursement on the word that, when my required OTJ training was complete, they would sign the paperwork to allow me to license with the state or get a paid position. I am no slave...

[@Oncopoda]

Saying that you're playing "devil's advocate" seems like a way to defend an indefensible viewpoint without getting yelling at.

[@emptystuff1593]

Well, it's a good exercise to get the viewpoint of the person you disagree with.

[@randomguy4989]

@@emptystuff1593 This exactly. I think truly understanding something also involves trying to weigh in both sides or the pros and cons of anything, because life rarely is just a 100% absolute in good vs bad. Even if you disagree with the argument it makes sense to try to contextualize what the other motives are and playing devil's advocate helps that. It is even part of academic philosophy, if you are doing academic research normally there is always a limitations section where you play devil's advocate against yourself to try to see your own shortcomings and possible weaknesses of your arguments. Obviously you don't disagree with your own reasoning (because then you wouldn't have it in the first place) but it makes sense to try to see why others would.

[@adrianodangelo2188]

I like this discussion a lot, and I think it's a fairly balanced perspective that you promote. I think an aspect that's worth exploring further is how that paid/unpaid internship division seems to get starker when you go towards more "care-taking" field internships. I myself did a degree in Athletic Therapy (Athletic trainer for you US folks) and we never got any kind of payment for the labour we put in. My wife is a social worker and she was never compensated for the work she did in her internship, and it's true for nurses, teachers, etc. It seems like fields which are traditionally pre-dominantly female don't receive the same treatment.

[@henkondemand]

Working for free is a bit like volunteer work since it's your choice to take the internship. If you are in a field that demands such internships there is indirect pressure which should be illegal. Working unpaid or not is a matter of principle. Do you value yourself enough to be compensated for your labour? It seems many people don't or are forced out of the choice.

[@manubarros4775]

In a society with universal basic income unpaid internships would be perfectly justifiable, wouldn't it?

[@jaredjohnson8387]

I don't know about perfectly justifiable, but it would more feasible.

[@sownheard]

Exactly than it's less bad.

[@garesonc9672]

A society with universal basic income would be broken anyways...so its a mute point.

[@johnsmith34]

​@@garesonc9672 Debatable, but even if universal basic income fails to live up to expectations, there are other ways of creating a safety net. And as long as there is a functioning safety net, unpaid labour won't be a major issue.

[@matteomarino3511]

In a society with universal basic income you are a slave to the government. Who will pay for the UBI? Because even if you want to only tax the rich, it won't be enough. You'll have to attack the middle class just like commies always do, raising taxes, and dooming your economy.

[@krombopulos_michael]

I think the biggest issue is that unpaid internships act as barriers for anyone without enough help from their parents. It's only a quick and easy way to get connections if you can already afford it. If they are integrated as part of a university program so it's effectively just part of your college term then OK, but otherwise it should be illegal. If we want an easy way to help people make connections and learn skills without risk to the company, they should do so on short term, low-wage contracts that can easily be terminated when the period is up, or else converted into a high-paying full time position.

[@sir_coma60]

Thank my employer that my internship is being paid for. It baffled me when u mentioned "unpaid internships" in an earlier vid, but it shows there's still much to learn for me.

[@Noobificado]

Great video

[@xornedge8204]

This opened my eyes to this topic although I still think in first world countries they shouldn’t do this for more than 2 months. 40 hours per week, about 4 weeks a month, 3 months equals to over 480 hours of unpaid labour. If you have no experience they could do 1 month unpaid and 1 to 2 months at apprentice rate(£4.30 an hour in the UK) for it to be a fair deal. Working nearly 500 hours for free is a bit too much when you consider transport and food costs for staying in the company. Unless they cover it for the duration of the internship.

[@kuanwilliams4287]

Very enlightening

[@mihailucianritan5873]

In Romania we have a law that separate this two, one is practice (unpaid scholarship like internship where you just learn things) and internship where you do things for the company, is illegal to do things in company that benefit financially the company if you are not paid.

[@sillysailor5932]

This sounds like one of those things that sounds good on paper. I can't see how it would work in practice. If you walk through a door and hold it open for guy behind you haven't you benefited the company?

[@DrReplaySC2]

If you work for free you're in the wrong line of work period. Get into a field that's so valuable no one can say no to you.

[@Lillith.]

You make a good point. In the Netherlands they made internships part of your degree because there was such a disconnect between what schools offered and what companies needed. For students it's also a great way to explore their options and what they do and don't want to do. Because it's part of your studies there is no barrier. I think it's a great way to do internships.

[@zbot2123]

This video makes me angry, because I completely disagree with the premise that the risk to the company is high enough that they need to not pay you at all. Probationary pay is one thing, no pay at all is another entirely, we used to call that slavery.

[@NathanCassidy721]

The thing is you are forgetting the biggest factor here. A large portion of businesses are small businesses (in America anyway). And small businesses do not have the same amount of capital as corporations like Amazon. So when “bleeding heart” mid-wits push for laws like, “All jobs should pay $15/hour,” the businesses that get hit the hardest are the local Mom and Pop shops. Why? Because you caused their expenses to go way up this they cannot afford as many employees. So his premise that the risk to companies is pretty high is valid. The real problem is that major corporations who can easily afford to pay their employees would absolutely take advantage of cost-cutting measures like this.

[@darronkingston378]

Slavery is NOT unpaid work, and it never has been. It's forced unpaid work. Usually forced implies punishment upon trying to leave; not the punishment being the leaving itself. People seem to be forgetting that free choice is still a thing these days...

[@Sir.Craze-]

The video shouldn't make you angry. He is playing devils advocate and it's hypothetical

[@noel9568]

By far my fav finance channel! Its like if matpat did finance and business theory!

[@Mexican00b]

nice point of view... Defend slavery too! it also makes sense on the monetary side, aint it?

[@jaxx6712]

Great video man, I’ve being watching for a while, even with the sub rally, you are still incredibly underrated. Good job 👍

[@HowMoneyWorks]

I appreciate that!

[@levelup1279]

I'm amazed how fast this channel exploded, I guess it's no longer a hidden gem.

[@franklobe]

Why not just waive the employment insurance requirement for post-secondary students working in an approved internship? The student gets paid from employment insurance and stops getting paid if they leave the internship. The employer would need to provide a job description for the internship that is beneficial to the intern to get approved. If the intern gets hired then the employment insurance gets their money back from payroll deductions.

[@highestqualitypigiron]

With Disney you have to PAY for an internship. Now that's really messed up hahaha

[@CantoniaCustoms]

Wait till they ask for prior work experience too haha

[@samfrostinjapan]

For a shorter period internship for a technical position that doesn't discriminate based on experience, it reasonable to pay for it. It's almost certainly going to be a cost to the company for the first month or two with very little produced. After a month or two doesn't make sense. Granted, most companies can recoup this from the hiring benefits and stuff.

[@minusCEE]

My school was doing something different. They have a class where the professors using their connections let companies sponsors projects (most of the time are subset of real projects the companies are working on). We student formed groups, pick a project and work on it for class credits, there's no exam, hw, just that project and we're responsible for communicating with the company and their clients if any. Usually the companies hire some of the students right after graduation with just a get-to-know interview

[@randeep6346]

Germany is the master of apprenticeships. The UK has just started where the government covers the basic salary for a period of time, so the cost is much lost to employers. We got our first apprenticeships in our company only last year. These individuals did not have a degree, which was always the requirement before. Great way to experiment and historically the company has always struggled to get the right skills in our specific industry.

[@simonnicholson7608]

Most of the arguments for unpaid internships also apply to paid internships. Getting experience in a feild is great, but you don’t need to be unpaid to get experience.

[@Master-ls2op]

the problem is unpaid internships used to be fore skilled labor like plumbing, electric, welding. skills you needed to get hands on time and experience.

[@GeneralChangOfDanang]

Now those apprenticeships actually pay pretty well.

[@Master-ls2op]

@@GeneralChangOfDanang but they are not as easy to find and have allot of government over sight. plus you are not allowed to really learn and make some mistakes.

[@jeffshackleford3152]

@@Master-ls2op I disagree with your assessment. It depends on who your training guy is. If he is good, then he will put you in situations that allow you to make mistakes and not effect the overall goal of the project. If he is bad then he will call you a retard etc and blame you for everything wrong on that project. While in college I worked in the trades and I had a good trainer, while I have been around other companies who have very bad trainers. To the point where I was training their new guys for them, as a new guy myself. The apprentices should absolutely be paid, just carrying boards or moving tools around has a value component to the overall job, because if the helper did not do it then the skilled guy would have to do it. Thusly taking his time to not produce the finished product. The biggest problem I see with most skilled guys is that they do not see their helper as an extension of their ability to produce.

[@markjohnston8691]

I think a short summary of what he is saying is that the problem is more complicated than it might appear at face value and there is no elegant solution. That indeed is the case with most problems.

[@verdiss7487]

I've never seen such a convincing argument for UBI without any direct reference to UBI

[@josecipriano3048]

If work is being done, there needs to be compensation. What this system leads to is companies cutting operational costs just to increase profits, to the point that huge banking institutions are overworking unpaid staff literally to death.

[@maverickburns864]

Great video! I hope you keep making these "devil's advocate" videos as I find them very interesting even if I may disagree. Kind of sucks that people who aren't familiar with the channel just dislike even with the disclaimer :(

[@alminzukic5740]

Unpaid internships are "okay" if you're in school, outside of school it should be very illegal.

[@sownheard]

No both should be paid. Otherwise you can set your company next to a school and get a couple of free workers every year. Instead of keeping Workers.

[@nishant54]

Absolutely not. Both must be legal forever for those who want to do voluntary internship and make contacts.

[@nishant54]

@@sownheard That is okay because at least schools are giving you free experience by stting up a company and they still need top level executives who arenot from schools.

[@sownheard]

@@nishant54 it's not okay because the insensitive structure to hire new workers will only rise in expectations and not in price. Young unpaid workers will lower the average salary. they are less likely unionize. Couple that with having less money after school leaving people desperate to pickup any job in/out side there field to make ends meet. At the end of the day bill's still need to be paid

[@nishant54]

@@sownheard Bills don't need to be paid in schools. Parents are for that. Whereas internships give you real world experience and chance to be prioritized when you look for job. Unions were great formerly but now it has become a tool to extort members and employers, so no one believes in such unions. No salary would come down because high and moderate paying job will always be there while interns will help lower level employees saving their time.

[@BensWatchClub]

F in the chat for those who can't grasp the concept of 'defending the indefensible'

[@HowMoneyWorks]

It's alright, I know I am not going to make many friends with this series, but hopefully the people that do understand it enjoy it.

[@marvinstenersen8083]

@@HowMoneyWorks that we do, it is a brilliant video as always! 👍

[@olzt100]

What an unpaid internship really does is the same thing that a temporary employment agency that for a company except it's cheaper. Companies get to review potential workers that they like for no money. Unpaid workers are not learning top secrets or valuable skills that they can transfer to another company and improve their value. The benefit entirely goes to the major company that is using the internship to their advantage.

[@biulaimh3097]

If I want to give my labour for free to a willing recipient, no third party should dictate otherwise.

[@emptystuff1593]

"Knowledge of industry standards that is up-to-date and relevant" : Someone which just graduated from school (or university) will need to train himself at his first job to become profitable. "Building a contact network with a group of peers and employers" : Any job does that. "Risk free way to condidates to prove their worth to an employer" : At the cost of no salary for the employee. Maybe it would be a better idea to reduce taxes on the employee salary. That way he costs less but doesn't receive less. That's a tax I would be willing to fund. Another way : In my country, there are some government jobs which requires lengthy trainings. You're paid during the training from day one. To avoid seeing this training go to the waste, they have a special contract : You must stay at this job for at least ten years. Maybe USA could implement a two-year contract or so, so that it ensures they see the result of the training they give.

[@Meton2526]

There should be no minimum wage, including a wage of nothing (unpaid work.) Minimum wage prevents anyone who is currently unable to produce value in excess of minimum wage from getting a job and learning skills that will get them to the point where they are then producing value greater than an arbitrary minimum wage. Welfare is the tool for assisting people who can't produce value greater than a set amount, not tyrannical policies that tell you you're not allowed to accept employment for some figure you voluntarily agree to.

[@skyranger1366]

Said like a corporate bootlicker.

[@Meton2526]

​@@skyranger1366 Said like someone that understands what money represents. You can't just push a minimum wage policy to magically make low skill people produce more value. They have to get experience and skills, or if they're not capable of learning those things (they do exist,) then you have welfare policies to cover them. Government distortion of natural emergent market pricing only serves to screw up those market pricing signals, and leads to less efficient allocation of finite resources that include labor.

[@skyranger1366]

@@Meton2526 Minimum wage was never designed to help employers it was designed to help employees. Because without it most jobs would be paid like unpaid internships. And isn't it ironic that employers complain about low skilled people and yet refuse to train them. No some other guy will do it. 50 years ago companies used to train employees from the ground up on the job and compensated them well. Now days employers have off shored all those training costs on the employee and are shocked that employees want more money as a result. And even if the employee has the skills and experience employers still try to low-ball. Just admit it employers want cheap slave labor not employees.

[@Meton2526]

@@skyranger1366 Minimum wage was designed to prevent foreigners from being hired. It was a racist policy right from the beginning. Now I'm not going to say that modern proponents are racist, but the origins were not benevolent.

[@shadbakht]

Why not at least pay them minimum wage, as opposed to zero? Zero money?

[@malzahar33]

Internship are part of the study cycle in France, and are paid. I am an engineer. For companies, when they hire an intern in his final year, basically it is an engineer at half the cost for the companies

[@jmurphy6767]

Companies that rely on unpaid help aren't good companies and aren't able to be profitable without "cheating."

[@rubenaltadore552]

I worked as an unpaid (for tips basically) intern for a while when I was still in school and that helped build a tons of skills that helped me get hired by the same company right after graduating. After that we kind of set up a system where when we need to bring on new people, we give other new graduates 1 month internships as a "both ways" trial period and then transitioning to Jr roles after that. This has helped the company grow with a young team and has helped the new graduates who usually find it very hard to get a job down here in Mexico making our company kind of like a doorway into the system. One can argue if the system is wrong or right.. But regardless, this is the way things work today, and low paid or unpaid internships that provide you with skills and experience undoubtedly have given a ton of people of my class a chance to have a job, and even star buying our first homes within 5 years of coming out of school. Every industry is different, this has worked in the mining/exploration side.

[@MostHighDwelling]

I was lucky to get a great supervisor for my current internship that was paid in high school. Now that I'm in college, I will be more likely to negotiate in the future now that I know it's possible.

[@jamesvanriper6334]

Technically in the US, unpaid internships can only be for the education of the intern. They can not expect real work is done.

[@SerangelROM]

Managing an intern means that employee isn't doing what they are paid to do and work lags. An intern is basically getting free education from a company in return for minimal labor. If a company really wanted "interns" they would hire someone with basic knowledge of what is required and allow them to be autonomous in their work, they wouldn't hire someone who knows nothing and must have their hand held each step just so they can get some experience.

[@frozentime1585]

an unpaid internship is a form of slavery in which ur employer can make u work 12 hrs a day and still not hire u for a full time at the end of the internship. Might as well do chores for ur parents or elderly neighbors for a small amount of money than no money at all.

[@jazz13071]

If you can't afford to pay your employees you can't afford to be in business. The problem with unpaid internships is that people who can't afford not work can almost never afford to work a full time job for free. Even if it is menial tasks, and if they are menial tasks then chances are the internship isn't really giving you helpful experience. Learning how to take a coffee order or file away paperwork is not helpful to grow your career.

[@stischer47]

Perhaps it's just IT, but I have always told my students (and the companies who want to hire them) NOT to work for a company who will not pay them. Period. Even summer internships (which are tryouts for both) are paid. Slavery was outlawed by the 13th Amendment.

[@BrandonPMotsilanyane]

How long you gonna do unpaid work while your expenses are growing especially if Ur a fresh graduate in covid little savings and no to few people to lean on for financial assistance......I get times are hard but the more business are reluctant on paying to train people the more it will be harder to fill in future cos they would have left a gap and next thing ull be competing for barely skilled labour and it won't be cheap so it's a sword that is gonna kill us all

[@HowMoneyWorks]

You nailed one of the biggest points in the video. Yes these roles can give you a head start, but going 3 months without pay is something that only already wealthy people can afford. This further widens inequality.

[@nishant54]

@@HowMoneyWorks No you can borrow money from parents or friends for at least 6 months of internship. Then all inequality would be narrowed within a few months after you get high paying jobs due to experience.

[@siva25143]

@@nishant54 except the degenerates of hr dept, won't consider internships as experience, at least where I live

[@nishant54]

@@siva25143 Then that is another matter. But everywhere else that is considered experience.

[@chrissmith3587]

@@nishant54 no you really can’t, at 21 what friend is going to your sugar daddy for 6 months Also experience is only worth as much as you were paid for it for many businesses

[@devenrivera5842]

I graduated with a Kinesiology degree, I’m a sport performance coach now. I was looking into an internship to gain clinical experience as an exercise physiologist. The internship at my university required students to pay $2000 for a couple months of experience. Now we are paying universities to partake in gaining experience, I’ve seen very scummy practices but when it comes to “unpaid internships”, or yourselves paying any company to participate as an intern. It is not counted as work experience, if your not paid then that is volunteer experience. Most companies don’t even consider volunteer experience as work experience.

[@rishabhlenka4505]

Maybe as a high school student or college freshman, I'd be more willing to take anything I could get, but anything afterwards it's not worth it.

[@ArianrhodTalon]

Great video. On another topic, what do you think of 'management programs' where they pitch to fresh grads, claiming that they would put you on track to be rotated throughout the departments to an eventual 'managerial' role. I for one, am always wary of such programs.

[@zio8275]

This is how I started out my career. My program was properly structured and the process was fair. I have no regrets.

[@nadeemchaudhry6585]

Another great video. I can see both sides if the argument, my biggest concern is that internships are open to abuse. There should be (like some countries have) fixed parameters, where what they do and learn is set in stone and with an agreed time frame. Perhaps there also should a social fund for interns that can't work for free, but then they have pay back into the fund over a period of time, ince they start to earn.

[@maccook1692]

What about paying to work? Aka nursing school? I've done over 1500hrs of work/school in the hospital and paid 13$/hr to do it! (Doctors get paid for this portion of their schooling through residency)

[@ThatGuyWithMinecraft]

I feel very lucky to have been in a field in college that had well paying internships as a standard. It is true that these are treated somewhat as sudo jobs that can be pretty selective. However, as someone that would not have been able to pay for school and living expenses on an unpaid internship, I don't think I'd want it another way. I definitely feel for those in degree paths that have unpaid internships as standard, that has got to be rough for anyone without wealthy parents or insane scholarships.

[@seapeajones]

Until rent can be paid with exposure, it is pretty cut and dry.

[@sillysailor5932]

You can't pay rent with essays and tests either. Do you want paid to go to school too?

[@juliesimone2877]

I did an unpaid internship in grad school and completely agree. It was worth the recommendation and resume add ten times over. It pays for itself immediately if you select a place that is in your field and has the opportunities your looking for. It also allows you to be more selective and get a potential internship where one did not even exist. Highly recommend.

[@chaosax0lotl]

I think you succesfully argued against unpaid internships both legally and in a business perspective

[@carlos-mw5ij]

First fucking first love ur vodeos forst btw cheers from colombia im a medical student!

[@BaLis7iK]

my wife is very close to graduating and starting her career as a pharmacist. She's had to do 6 6 week unpaid internships, and also pay for her own mandated insurance as well. previous pharm Ds only had to do maybe one or two. its ridiculous to work 40+ hours a week and not be paid a cent.

[@HellDuke-]

Had a few interns in my job who needed to do internship for their studies. Not sure why they went to IT when they were studying programming related courses but it was their own choice... We never let any of them close to anything production other than cabling work when we showed them what IT work can look like in a server room when we needed to do something and it was safe enough for them to touch production hardware. Otherwise I just had to think of tasks they could do and I could then evaluate and teach on. Programming course students were tricky because they often had to actually do programming on the internship. Good thing I did automation so I had my interns re-do the work I did or just do a task I had planned to do, though in every instance I had to completely re-write the code from scratch

[@TomMcMorrow]

Worked an unpaid financial planning internship before realizing a year after graduation I can't sell anyone on anything. Financial analyst it is!

[@CaraMarie13]

I had to do two internships for my graduate program. I hated them both but i later learned us because I just hate working 😅. But even before that i had done a one year internship that helped me get into grad school (it's like a damn circle). I wouldn't want to do it again but I do recognize that it was those internships that helped me get my first full-time work.

[@ProductBasement]

I worked for a startup for a while and the boss wanted me to start an internship program and offer $5/hour. We advertised this opportunity at my school, and we quickly started receiving applicants, but we also received a call from the school saying we could pay minimum wage or higher or nothing, but nothing less than minimum wage. Guess which my boss chose, and how many applicants we had left -.-

[@ronnyrdr6553]

As a kid, i remember it was rarely still possible to ask for unpaid work to increase skills. So as a teenager looking to save/earn potential money. I wanted to work unpaid in order to increase contacts relations. learn how to easily repair my bike, hopefully learn how to get cheap spare parts. Same eventually for the car (future idea's) or smithing etc etc. Anything really. Just wanted to increase my set of skills. I got turned down at every step everywhere. I know that spending time to learning someone the ropes can be a lot. but therefore the unpaid part. And honestly i'd would've been happy to be there a few hours a week just taking up air and following professionals around preferably allowed to ask question etc. But again no deal. I always wondered why that was. Now as an adult; i just think i'd get to see their dirty laundry aswell and that is what had them frightened.

[@JAN0L]

You can watch Louis Rossmann's video "We don't hire interns" about this topic.

[@drakewilliams3510]

Going in, let’s see what you got

[@muziqkissed]

Can you do one of these on college athletes who don't get paid yet make tons of money for their schools in exchange for tuition?

[@tomlxyz]

I got paid internship, about 2/3 of the entry salary. Although, I can't say that they could have argued with experience being the payment