Why Aren't Halo Maps GOOD Anymore?

[@Dagoroth55]

Unique outlook on the Halo maps. I liked when things didn't make sense. Made things wacky and fun, like Sandbox. You are in a sand bowl surrounded by Forerunner Guardians and their lasers. Do we know why we are there? Nope! Is it fun? Yes it is.

[@spectralassassin6030]

That's what I've noticed most of the new Halo is lacking. Fun. I don't even care if I win a match as long as I had fun in it. Now it's all so dang competitive all the time and it's exhausting. I'm not gonna keep playing a game if I keep getting stomped on by some sweaty try hards over and over again. That's not fun and I don't have the time or want to also become a sweaty try hard just so I can brag about "muh K/D."

[@freeziboi3249]

@@spectralassassin6030 fr

[@margotpreston]

@@spectralassassin6030 Yeah, the constant competitiveness of 343s Halo games is exhausting.

[@flooferfox2407]

it just adds to one of life's greatest Mysteries

[@Pikastation28]

True

[@imperatoriacustodum4667]

You'd think the concept of it being simulated arenas would mean they could go more all-out because now they're not limited by halo's reality.

[@Khronik_]

But they gotta appease the pros though and they dont like our version of fun.

[@spectralassassin6030]

@@Khronik_ That was honestly one of the worst decisions they made. Halo wasn't built on competitive play. It was built on the thought process of "Is this fun? No? Thow it out. Yes? Keep it in." Now it's all "muh K/D!" Honestly feels like I'm playing CoD sometimes and that is one of the worst things to say about Halo.

[@PackHunter117]

That’s very true. 3 steps forward with the cool mil sim idea with your Spartan being a background character with 6 steps backward with the heavy MLG human themed maps.

[@physical_insanity]

@@spectralassassin6030 Even worse is when they ruined Community breakout in Guardians because it wasn't fair or something, so they added shields and gave everyone shotguns basically killing the flow of the game. Like, bro, community breakout was by far the most fun game mode in possibly the entire series and you ruined it because some sweaty competitive were whining, how asinine can you be?

[@YuYuYuna_]

@@Khronik_ Ehh I mean I don't think that's the reason why they are so un-creative with maps and tie them down to "lore accurate" battlegrounds. I mean the proof is in the pudding. Go back and look at what were the top Halo maps that were played in competitive tournaments like MLG, etc. For example in Halo3 there was The pit, Heretic, Guardian, Narrows that were played a ton in competitive and those maps all have different styles and layouts. So I don't think it's an issue of listening to the pros. I think it's that 343 has no creativity themselves to design maps so they think the "safest" bet is to listen to pro players (who also have no creativity for map design or aesthetics).

[@HazopGaze]

"Over-Engineered" - This one term sums up my entire vibe from modern gaming. I seem like I'm constantly saying this, but it feels like this is happening EVERYWHERE. In a way, it kind of is? Like, you're right about a number of things 343 did as part of the Halo space, but I'm of the opinion that the wider gaming industry standards hold a lot of blame that, when talking about Halo and only Halo, end up lost. Every other game franchise-centric creator also seems to fall into this, too, for the record. Rarely do I hear CoD creators or whoever mention "Halo has the same issue" and such. My hope is that one day, player fun and creativity become grander pillars of game design, because as it stands right now, there's way too much emphasis on how to science players into routines or playstyles and it really stinks. Halo Infinite is basically what I point to when someone asks me what went wrong with gaming. Trend following, microtransactions, competitive focused are just a few of the problems you could bring up. Tack on being riddled with bugs and having lackluster amounts of content to that, too. I'm not holding my breath, though. Modern big-name gaming is in a vice grip by companies with way too many schemers trying nickel and dime us for our money as well as our fun.

[@Mortablunt]

Western gaming needs its own madman. Western gaming needs someone like its own Yoko Taro or Hidetaka Miyazaki. Someone who is just going to decide to make their game the way they want the best they can and damn the industry. I can’t think of a single western auteur dev; The closest we get is Hideo Kojima because he just has does much stuff in the western style for a western audience. We essentially need a 2020s equivalent to what John Romero was in the 1990s. Think someone like Michal Kickinski or Andrew Prohorov, but turbocharged. It’s quite unfortunate western games continue to be built essentially to specifications by committee, checking all the boxes to have the right number for wide appeal. Gotta have the open world gotta have the customizable skins gotta have the random quests gotta have the crafting system gotta have the upgrades gotta have the multiplayer mode gotta have the micro transactions. It’s exactly the same sort of assembly process that they use for movies. Gotta have the right group of good guys gotta have a villain gotta have a love interest gotta have a fight scene gotta have a kissing gotta have some big argument right before the third act gotta have the Marvel one liners gotta have an underdog gotta have something for the kids gotta have a lady to appeal to women gotta have a black guy for minority appeal, gotta have someone for the Chinese market… I remember Western devs got very upset at Elden Ring. Along came a game that did absolutely nothing like it was supposed to be. Western games are very maximalist; given the expense that goes into them they want you to see absolutely every dollar that they put into it. Ring doesn’t care about that. You can engage with the story as much or as little as you want. You can clear the game after killing just 16 bosses or you can kill hundreds of bosses to wipe the whole map. Elden Ring doesn’t level gate you to anything mandating that you clear all the side quests at the tavern or hit level 45 before it lets you do the next story mission. And most offensive to conventional Western Developer wisdom is Eldon ring is not handholding and Eldon ring does not clutter you with icons. The game trusts the player to do as they want and does not feel the need to unendingly here them from activity and checklist to activity and checklist to keep them engaged with the game artificially. The game isn’t built to facilitate a microtransaction addiction, the game isn’t built to get noisy reactions on KZbin, the game isn’t built to start an esports scene, the game isn’t built to degerate stream highlights, The game isn’t built to be a lasting addiction like Skyrim, it’s built to be a game. Sadly I don’t think we’ll get our own special auteurs over here. The gaming industry in the West is extremely corporate and it’s all about hitting those committee expectations. Miyazaki got his start with a leap of faith after providing himself to a relatively liberal company. Yoko Taro is downright crazy and transgressive in a way frightening to shareholders.

[@HazopGaze]

@@Mortablunt I'm with you for the most part, but a large number of those 'assembly process boxes' you listed just don't work for the point that I think you're trying to go for here. 1. Open World - Largely varies by the design of any given game and flat out doesn't exist in a lot of them. Open World sections are often put in to instill a sense of freedom and replayability, though sometimes they come up short in execution. 2. Skins - Player expression. That's been a factor in games for a lot longer than the 'over-engineered feel' that a lot of us notice these days. Look at Halo and CoD in the days before MTX took over. 3. Random Quests - See 1. Side quests often serve to expand on the world or even introduce recurring characters, or simply to make the world itself feel fleshed out and alive. 4. Crafting System - Again, purpose varies based on game. Can feel 'engineered', but largely is based in a key part of games, being able to do something yourself. To interact and get something out of doing so. Not always necessary, but I think is something many appreciate. 5. Upgrades - I feel like a broken record with this. Varies by game and it's design. Some gameplay loops are defined heavily by statistical progression therefore upgrades are a must. 6. Multiplayer Mode - ...Just look at what I said with 5, 4, 3, and 1. Same concept. It's based heavily in design. 7. Micro-transactions - THIS actually fits. They don't really serve any purpose beyond pulling money from a game's playerbase, and usually done in invasive ways that leech off of the important facets like player expression or content. So 6 of 7 of these are important facets to any given game, with some being more or less important or altogether missing if it wouldn't work. Your list for movies also misses the mark, IMO. 1. Heroes and Villains - Lumping these two together. This is basic story-writing 101. Protagonists and antagonists. If either of these aren't done well, the story itself will suffer. Same with the world building. 2. Love Interests / romantic relationships - These elements in stories act as complicating factors that exert pressure on protagonists and antagonists alike, and done well, add further depth to characters who end up in them. 3. Fight Scenes - Heavily dependent on the story the movie is built around. Largely it draws from the conflict at hand. 4. Kissing Scene - This only works if you already have 2 in play. Serves as a payoff for a romantic buildup. It's like lighting a fuse and then the firework goes off. Done right, it feels earned. 5. Big arguments before the third act - This is one I'm not too sure of, coz I can only think of one or two examples where I've seen it and both instances have been well executed. Both cases served as key story points. Not like they were there just to be there. 6. Marvel One Liners - Depends on if it's a joke being made or if it's just a snarky comment IMO. Not too sure on that one either. 7. Underdogs - This is also kind of good story writing 101. Especially with hero stories like Marvel or DC. The whole point is for characters to be outmatched because if victory is assured, there is no tension and therefore no real payoff and the audience loses investment. 8. Women, Minority, and Kids appeal - These are all too often case by case basis and I can't call it one way or another. So what's the major takeaway here? It's not the check-boxing of these things. Especially with movies - and games - which are all often drawn from stories, it's the execution of these key facets that determines whether or not they feel 'assembly line produced'. If it doesn't fit naturally within the game, movie, or even book, it's going to come off as forced. In my opinion, it's short sighted to look these things and take them as 'checking boxes' without first recognizing how and where they fit into the subject being discussed. I'm probably running out of space here, so I'll tie this off with a comment on one of your other points. Outside of the microtransactions thing, most games aren't built to get reactions on YT, stream highlights, be lasting addictions, or anything else considered 'ulterior motives'. Most games, by my measure, ARE built to be games. Primarily, it has been the execution of ideas that's been subpar lately. As well as hijacking of otherwise core systems to push MTX or other 'shortcuts'.

[@strangegaming3060]

In CE-H3 had diversity. Look at screenshots of gameplay from any multiplayer map. Even at a glance, you can tell the maps apart instantly. And the appearance of those maps follow their function. Zanzibar could be reimagined as covenant or forerunner themed, but why? It makes sense being Earth-themed. Gemini could be reimagined as UNSC or forerunner themed, but why? That Truth hologram just makes sense in a covenant environment. But with Reach-Infinite, the theme of the maps were totally interchangeable with few exceptions. Haven was the most unique map in H4 because I can't imagine that as a UNSC map with all its gravity lifts, but the rest of them feel like they were focus-tested to be as inoffensive and bland as possible. Long gone is that bridge on Zanzibar or that rotating cover piece on Ascension, or the gates and melee-bridges on Turf, or the stalagmites on Waterworks, or the conveyer belts on Elongation, or the switch-gates on Containment and Standoff, or the turrets on Snowbound. Are teleporters even featured in maps anymore? I don't remember seeing any in the 343 era, unless they were remakes of older maps. 343 traded gameplay depth for the width of their player base, and we all know how well that turned out.

[@mitchconner2021]

Those damned Gemini doors tho. Why are they so loud 😂😂

[@EvanMerkes1]

@@mitchconner2021 🤣

[@biolinkstudios]

reach had forge world, halo 5 forge was insane and alot of amazing maps came out, halo 4.... well only Good was campaign

[@THEGOOD360]

That was the charm to the forerunner stuff in the lore as well. It was mysterious and all we had were tiny bits of info here and there but halo 4 plus a trilogy of novels decided we should explain every last detail about them. Like a horror movie its better to leave much of it up to the imagination, especially when it doesn't even make for a better story.

[@randomhiphop5055]

I liked the forerunner books a lot i just wish they kept all of that stuff out of the games. Originally there was debate within bungie if forerunners were ancient humans or another race and i dont think they ever really resolved that they just left it up to the player minus the last line by 343 guilty spark "you are the child of my makers inheritor of all they left behind. You are forerunner, but this ring is mine". Not sure which concept i would have preferred at the end of the day i just wish old bungie still existed.

[@pododododoehoh3550]

​@@randomhiphop5055 Agreed, the forerunner novels are my favourite halo books, even outside of halo they're just genuinely really well written sci fi. But that weird intense alien ambience that everything forerunner used to give off has definately been squandered.

[@PackHunter117]

It’s super subjective if it makes for a better story or not. As a lore fan I like to learn every detail possible. I don’t care to have as much mystery in the story. And that way it makes it more memorable if it’s used sparingly

[@PackHunter117]

@@EggEnjoyer The idea of humans and Forerunners being the same is super clique. Forerunners and humans having the same creator like humans and angels do in religion is a helluva lot cooler

[@physical_insanity]

@@randomhiphop5055 They did resolve it, and it was with Halo 3 they decided they were two separate races. However, with Bungie's style of storytelling, the ability for you to decide what the case is sticks with you.

[@Quikostdreggs]

After the video, I looked to see how many thousand subs you had, and was shocked! The editing and style of this video are a home run, and your handling of the argument very mature. 10/10 you deserve better

[@Wwclips-Weee]

Plus he doesn’t heart every comment because it exists on his video

[@Dandroid_1]

Halo 1: wacky maps for a chill evening with the boys after a day at work. Halo 2: felt like a classic arena shooter with funny moments and banter. Halo 3: The Forgening. Halo Reach: Forge 2: electric boogaloo. Halo 4 onwards feel like every multiplayer match is equivalent to grating my testicles over a cheese grater. The maps don't even feel mysterious or fun anymore. Pretty much every Halo player I still hang with almost exclusively plays MCC nowadays. I don't give a damn about war games or E-sports or the UNSC infinity. I just want to splatter people in a forklift dressed as a big dumb golden Elite armed with a golf club. Halo was made, at it's core, to he a social game. Rip that out and you rip out it's very soul.

[@monstermash1571]

Something that was driving me nuts in Halo Infinite were the god damn pit falls in the middle of certain maps. WAY too many of the maps had certain doom waiting below. Too many times, I was in a heated firefight, double kill, TRIPLE KILL, I leap into the air to play aggressive, shields down, going for a headshot!......"Suicide" I can't understand the logic of having pit falls in the middle of maps, maybe it'd be intresting for 1 map, but I can think of like 3 maps in Infinite off the top of my head that have them.

[@robrulez4532]

@epic7783 Maybe you should just get better at increasing your IQ beyond room temperature, lmfao. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people while I sit back and have a good laugh at your next spaz out.

[@LeMicronaut]

Noticing the map decline with Reach was the best part, but needed more emphasis on Bungie copying 1:1 campaign sections into multiplayer. I could never tell if those maps started with multiplayer in mind (Boneyard, Spire, Sword Base, especially Boardwalk). The Cage and Powerhouse were both really good, though. It'd be really nice to see a follow up video cause if you went through a few map vs map case studies, it'd be much more informative design-wise. When you really look, 343 doesn't do lore practical layouts either and a lot of the geometry and paths are arbitrary and akin to a paintball field. That doesn't make it "competitive" design, just simpler to draft. It's not that the map concepts are boring, it's that- at most opportunities- 343's geometry and dynamics are infuriatingly timid. For example: Did you know, Halo 4 has not one, but TWO maps with running trains on them? Well, if you didn't, that's probably because they both run high above the player with no influence on the playspace at all. The maps are Perdition and Harvest. Terminal was one of my favorite maps from H2 just cause I thought the insanely exposed energy sword sitting on the active monorail that runs along the entire level's length was funny. Plus the warthog has multiple jumps across it. Awesome shortcut or humiliating execution by the Guardians? It's all up to player timing. Round 2, Halo 2 isn't the only title to introduce a brand new map focused on harnessing wind power. While Zanzibar has a slowly spinning wind turbine you can climb onto and a deployable access bridge and gate for the attacking team, Vortex (H4) is a quasi-symmetrical map that has no dynamic map elements, just infantry-only mancannons and rolling hills with a central base that has numerous hatch escapes. Turf vs. Bazaar (Infinite), Blackout vs. The Rig (H5), Midship vs. Coliseum (H5), Waterworks vs. Shatter (H4), Headlong vs. The Spire (Reach) would also probably be worthy of more direct comparisons. Laid out like this, it's really baffling how close they come to hitting the mark, but just end up whiffing it by missing that special sauce.

[@EddyVinck]

When you mentioned there are no ways to flank anymore + all the open areas, that really made sense. We can only hope that people will forge more fun maps.

[@SamWinks]

A big point you didn’t mention was the introduction of more movement mechanics and options in later halo games. Designing maps with intentional sight lines, player routes, power positions, safe spawns ect is much harder when you have to account for more than just one base movement speed like in older halo games. The general speed of recent halo games requires play spaces to be expanded to accommodate the game mechanics. The more ‘powerful’ the player becomes the weaker the map becomes. What was once a wall you have to walk around to engage in combat in halo 3 becomes something you can just clamber over in halo 5.

[@yoyo21926]

make the wall higher. its what they did on the pit remake. they even added more ramps to encourage more fast movement.

[@SamWinks]

@@yoyo21926 that’s my point. Maps have to be adjusted, rescaled and reworked to work in a new sandbox where the player has a lot more options. If you played construct from H3 with the jet packs from 4 and reach it totally changes the routes that are available to the players in the game.

[@yoyo21926]

@@SamWinks classic halo movement was too simple. its ok to add some new little things and reimagine classic maps a little to make it flow the same.

[@brandonjohnston7757]

@@yoyo21926 No, it really wasn't. All you needed was what was there. Things like crouch jumping and being able to move in any direction while aiming in any other direction was enough. If players wanted more options that was what the vehicles and map pickups like halo 3 equipment were for.

[@yoyo21926]

@@brandonjohnston7757 i dont think i wanna pickk up an equipment just to sprint slide clamber. why dont we remove jump while we are at it and stick that on a equipment.

[@SoulbentAnime]

You are so spot on with part about 343i trying to make everything storybased. You explained it well when you said Bungie has lore tid bits but that was all. They prioritized fun over everything and look whose games are more popular

[@legogoka-boomstudio1838]

Something you prob should’ve mentioned is that if bungie came out with the “training simulation” excuse for halo 1 we might’ve never gotten cool shit like red vs blue

[@optiTHOMAS]

I miss halo's classic map design. So many iconic designs. I hate the artificial design barriers that 343 give themselves. They are so obsessed with Spartans its just a bit rediculous. That might be why we won't see our elites back anytime soon. 😔 I also miss the classic gun sounds! Regardless, good stuff here, man! 😁👌🏻

[@PackHunter117]

What’s even funnier is Halo Online with the UNSC Anvil Station has Elites and Spartans training together. And the Shadow of Intent actually has its own Elite version of the War Games simulator. So 343 can’t even use the lore as an excuse for no Elites in multiplayer

[@optiTHOMAS]

@@PackHunter117 yeah, absolutely! it would fit the lore so, they dont have an excuse! 😅 I think it'd be absolutely badass to see Spartans training with elites! I wish they were around. Besides the stuff with them in Halo 5, it feels like they were never even our allies in the story currently. I miss em! Well said!

[@willking636]

This has got to be one of the best summaries of how at least I feel that I've even seen. I think it puts to words in a very unique way what a lot of people feel and think. It's important to focus on things like old map design in a way where you say more than "old map design". That is something I'm very guilty of, but I love the way you specifically mention how the map should feel free to just be a halo map. That alone is such a big point. To hell with the aesthetic being natural, make it naturally feel like a shooty map! Great quality too this video needs more views for sure

[@peacelove6455]

The shift in map design is because 343 have made the focus on Spartans/Military. They are therefore making more "Realistic" human maps which ends up lacking in creativity and Scifi aesthetic.

[@FlamespeedyAMV]

They lack anything lol.

[@DDustinC]

OG halo maps always had a unique flow and style to them that set itself apart from other fps games. In an ideal world we'd have maps built for social play and maps built for competitive modes in Infinite but we can't even get maps period. I also don't understand 343's philosophy of not remaking beloved maps and how there wasn't a single one in Infinite. Where's midship, zanzibar, ascension, Turf, Guardian, Lockout any of these?! Thank God we're finally getting a pit remake but it won't come till next year, like wtf.

[@stevenwebb3475]

Probably because people got mad at them for doubling the map size for sprint.

[@jiffbombastic3694]

I miss games not being designed to be total sweatfests and more centered around being fun. They really had to manhandle all the aspects of the game until you played how they wanted you to.

[@theequalizer694]

Because 343i decided to make multiplayer “canon” to the campaign. So now most infinite maps just consist of forerunner structures and UNSC/Banished bases

[@aptspire]

Remember the "social weekend" events in 3 and Reach? Everyone on both sides got together and messed around for the fun of it.

[@hrthrhs]

"Draining" that's the best word I've come across to describe how I feel about Infinite's MP. I can't quite figure out why.

[@alexanderrobins7497]

Draining is an accurate word. Too many people categorize things as good or bad, but Infinite isn’t either, since bland is how I describe it, which might be worse than being bad.

[@scottnewman522]

they had character before. arenas, hydro electric plants, beaches, satellite arrays, forgotten forests, space stations, you name it. now we just get generic sci fi town square or generic sci fi military base

[@sethen132]

the aqua teen segment has me laughing so hard im crying thank you

[@gendygoblin8391]

The bungee maps also felt like you were a tourist visiting these areas you normally wouldn’t in the campaign. Their diversity also kept the game and world interesting and if they fucking kept playable Elites they could absolutely add more diverse Maps with lore in mind if the game mode was invasion. The diversity also gave you the sense you were in a universe in conflict.

[@OfficialKoharu]

High ground has ALWAYS been criminally underrated…

[@OakThorn39]

First time ever watching any of your vids and that opening was a hell of a way to grab a new viewer's interest right away. Good stuff man, I like your style!

[@brodieleonard5817]

2:50 "and halo one was just kind of... d-doin stuff man" 😂😂

[@Bioshockaholic]

At least at the time as a middle/high schooler, I thought the “it’s all a digital training exercise” thing was kinda neat touch

[@codylujan]

DUDE I love how you said bungie kept their locations vague and left the backstory to us. It lets our minds wonder and lets us have a creative take. I loved how vague the description was on the maps. they were so haunting and cryptic, you had absolutely no idea why the structures were there. at some point you didn't care, you were happy to just imagine what it was like out there beyond the map. 343 comes in and says, "no, this is where it came from, this is how it was formed, here's who created it and why." it kills the thrill. I also want to add that bungie's "blam!" engine on H3 had that "90's feel" to it. Obviously it was a modern engine but it felt perfect. The perfect balance between a little dated architecture and just new enough to get the job done. H3 was unapologetically Halo. Nothing can top H3.

[@PackHunter117]

While I agree that mystery is really cool here and there the lore nerds like myself love to learn every detail about the story if possible

[@YuYuYuna_]

@@PackHunter117 Yeah but don't speak for all lore nerds. I myself love to know any details I can about the maps and what their relations are to the inner workings of the covenant or the flood or the UNSC, etc. However I don't enjoy forced lore telling where everything is so sterilized and clean cut and there's no mystery. You have to have some degree of mystery in a story, questions for the player to ask themselves and make them actually THINK about the story. Like here's the map description of Halo 3's Narrows: "Without cooling systems such as these, excess heat from the Ark's forges would render the construct uninhabitable." It describes the location and its purpose but doesn't go into further detail. There is a balance to it and I'd rather have too little details about a map's relation to the game's lore and world building so I can think about what the purpose of it might be and get creative and more excited about thinking about the game than have them tell me: "This location was used by the brutes to mine blah blah from the mountains but then it became a highly contested battleground with the UNSC" like where's the mystery in that. Where's the space for me as a fan of the story to imagine anything. Learning every little detail about the story is fun -- to a degree. There come's a point where a story over does it and removes all the fun of mystery out of it and then there's no wondering about "what could have took place here?" when you see a partially destroyed covenant/forerunner structure or a convenant/forerunner base that is now overgrown with algae and moss and forestry. To each their own if you like having every little detail available but i like there to be enough information to make me interested but not too much so I can imagine why this structure was abandoned or how this location fits into the larger picture and plans of the covenant/unsc/whoever.

[@PackHunter117]

@@YuYuYuna_ That’s what the Precursors, early Covenant and human history, the many holes of the Insurrection wars, a lot of current holes in the War of Annihilation, the Covenant Fringe, questions like what do female Unggoy or Jiralhanae look like, and other stuff is for my guy. Heck we didn’t know Thrallslayer was still alive and had joined the Banished until the Encyclopedia even though everyone assumed he did. However it’s anyones guess til 343 confirms it if he massacred the Councillors in the H2A terminal or if there are or were other Brutes that wore the armor Thrallslayer wears. Then there’s also not much info on what Jackal Pirate life is like. We don’t know if the Prometheans are still around or not. We’ll never know all the species that didn’t get indexed by the Forerunners before the Halo Array fired. And now thanks to Infinite there’s the Endless too now. And there’s still Halo Rings we’ve not been on yet. And also what Forerunner life was like such as civilian life. And yes visually we’ve never seen Forerunners outside of a few pictures and terminals of mostly the Librarian and Didact. And so so so much more mystery

[@PackHunter117]

@Kimi Timoskainen Read my comment to YuYuYu and you’ll see over 10 examples of mystery still left in Halo. And now with the Endless there’s even more new mystery. But even without the Endless there’s still much mystery left.

[@InformerMaz]

@@PackHunter117 Meh.

[@Tsuki_Mond]

Dam okay like the vid and didn’t even realize that the full 9 mins had passed already . Love your style feel free to keep it up . Also love how you didn’t hang on any hate for the maps just if they felt fun or not.

[@Bullwon]

Back in my day we had a single stone wall in the middle of a canyon that only lead to a river. AND WE HAD FUN

[@JKNACK3]

That intro got me man. I wasn’t expecting that. 😢 thanks for making a great video FROM THE JUMP.

[@VladimirLorenzo-k4k]

maybe its a result of the game mode i played most in reach being infection, but i felt like most reach maps had their own unique spots that, from a 'fair and balanced' gameplay perspective, completely broke the maps, but made playing them all the more fun. sword base had the hallway to the air lift vent that all the humans would sit in the back of and slowly one by one the zombies would rush in and kill them until the last guy had to escape up the lift knowing full well that there'd be zombies waiting at the top, boardwalk and countdown each had places that youd boost on top of using other players and those that couldnt make it up get killed first only to come for you after. then after reach fell into 343's hands, the infection multiplayer pool of maps pretty much removed those and replaced them with edited versions that removed those spots or blocked them off. when i played infection in halo 4, it felt like no map had any good place to hold out and i had much less fun. also, dont know why they removed the ability for infection game modes to involve infected using other eapons because that killed a lot of possibility for custom gamemodes like swat, fatboy, or duckhunt

[@rosshall8067]

That intro was gorgeous

[@ethanaterx5046]

This was very well done, and I was amazed to notice just how few subs you've got. I look forward to whatever you do next. On a side note I agree with everything you said here; the new maps just don't have the same luster as the ones in the old games.

[@DagothUr_HAL]

Imo Bungie made maps unique in a sense that they have a feeling being different. There were landmarks that you can easily tell what it came from. From lighting, to the ambiance, and to the backgrounds. Sure there was remastered or reworked maps, even then they weren't just a coat of paint they were differnt in their own way to make it stand out a bit. Newer maps from 343i well a few did stand out, most felt the same in the weird way. I still sometimes load old maps and run around to just explore them. So much effort and love were placed into the maps.

[@sholtzi2593]

Between Halo 2, 3, and Reach, there were over 60 maps to chose from. Given that Infinite was supposed to be the "definitive halo" and the "long term live service" you'd think they could've just remade 10-12 of the most classic, nostalgic, agreed upon good maps in halo's history and went with that for launch, but instead they decided to ship the game with... a middle-eastern town, a space weed farm, a shooting range, and some random streets _at night_

[@jaymon64anabel53]

Yeah, as I love the Halo Reach maps so much- whether they’re remakes or simple forge maps, it changed right after. I miss how they made the maps, like CE’s were insanity during matches but that’s what made it so fun. I do however, really enjoyed some of the maps in 4 and 5- it gave us a deeper dive into how the colonies looked like behind reading about them. If only they balanced it out, I would’ve been okay.

[@Wylie288]

Reaches maps were awful. They were terribly designed for MP. they took them from campaign areas and repurposed them. Easily the worst maps in the series as far as the entire game collection of average goes

[@jaymon64anabel53]

@@Wylie288 Understandable bro, I respect your opinion. 👍

[@YuYuYuna_]

@@Wylie288 Strongly disagree but hey Reach was a game that you either loved or you hated.

[@zubbworks]

Me and my friends did reach forge world. We put tanks in pillboxes for across the map sniping. We made floating towers for sniping as well. Alot a sniping actually. It was one of the first games I played where bullets didn't disapear quite so short a range. We had fun. We liked the elephant level in 3 as well. We built bases all over, I put one in the minefield. It kinda worked. Good times.

[@jaymon64anabel53]

@@zubbworks Oh yeah I know the feeling man. I really enjoyed the maps that didn’t even make sense as well, there’s just random structures and weapons laying around the map. Basically no style of anything, really fun with random people joining to kill each other on. I also really liked Sword Base, despite it being camping lift 101.

[@HaloVFX]

Solid video, don't think maps will ever be as fun as the OG's purely because the gameplay in infinite is sweat-focused as opposed to fun. If you're out in the open, you're basically dead on sight. In Halo 3, the person shooting had to be able to lead their shots properly and even then the distance made it difficult to kill enemies at distance so was nicely balanced for open-areas etc

[@blunderswish7121]

I haven't run into this perspective on maps before. Thanks for the insights, and work done to create this! Great video!!! Going to check out some of your other stuff.

[@jonm.678]

I agree completely. 343 sacrificed fun on the altar of competitive gameplay. Not everything needs to be grounded and canon lore. It’s okay to just go crazy and have fun with these ridiculous maps like a random forerunner structure in the trees (Guardian) or a floating flood containment base in an icy region of the world (Lockout). Just have fun with it, dammit! They were so close but still missed the mark

[@Wylie288]

Nothing about "grounded in canon lore" has anything to do with competitve. Competitive players only care about readability. Not theme.

[@jonm.678]

@@Wylie288 that’s my point- there’s nothing fun about the new maps because 343 only focuses on making competitive play based maps while overlooking more environment with lore based maps

[@beefs0ck911]

Dude I LOVE ridiculous wacky map design like CE. They’re my favorite to slap together in Reach’s forge.

[@kevindeklerk7401]

343 and every other franchise killers: "You may think that is what you want but that's not really what you want."

[@Green-IV]

You raise good points! Me and some guys on reach have been making cgb compatible mods/maps lately and some of the maps are just spectacular. I cant wait for the community to see it all

[@SuperBounce]

Thanks man! Excited to see what you’ve got cookin!

[@justcast1429]

343s stupid decision to make matchmaking “canon” is a reason why playable elites aren’t available anymore

[@lindholmaren]

Same honestly I wish we didn't have to have a thematic event with a scripted story and new modes just to add a new goddamn map in a way that "makes sense" I want more behemoth that just drops you in a sandbox looking forerunner environment and just lets you go, aside from the spawn pads, weapon racks, Spartan callouts that don't make any goddamn sense in modes like SWAT (why is "popped their shields" coded to trigger EVERY TIME you do health damage on an enemy instead of when you pop their shields?)

[@Youwouldknowmebtnow]

There reason the modern maps suck is actually very very simple. They are designed in such a manner to force contact between players at given points. With weapons and vehicles not spawning out in the open so much, and limiting the verticality, your options for creating your own points of interest to contest simply don't exist. "being wacky" is just you picking up on the least subtle part of this design. The problem is actually much deeper in the core gameplay. Before hand, players where given many points of interest and ways to get there based on choices that compliment the vehicle and weapon sandbox/ spawning locations they had and the whole map would be this breathing dynamic thing. That simply doesn't exist anymore. Even subtle things like not spawning on the same side every time you die contributed to this abundance of options. The only path to travel is simply the quickest to the enemy/action.... that's boring. Most of it is travel to maybe 20% of the map that actually sees any action. It doesn't matter what you do aesthetically if all your maps funnel you to a single point of contest; the middle of the map...

[@Youwouldknowmebtnow]

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with these maps. It's the fact the game design limits how you can use them. You can go into forge and make them interesting pretty quickly by simply blocking/adding paths and sprinkling in erratic spawns, weapon, and vehicle placements along with powerful areas to control like towers or key points of cover that control sight lines. 343 fails to understand the map is not just a set piece to play in. It is infact, a mechanic itself and needs to be treated as such.

[@Mashusiai]

I ironically was okay with Halo 5 combat changes but the maps took a huge nosedive in terms of creativity and Unique, even its forge maps looked bland in comparison to reach. The soul in map design nowadays it feels like it was made for other fpses.

[@CharliReef]

Currently working on a map in halo 5. I want a beach arena map with two sort of lanes, one higher than the other, and some sort of forerunner structure in the middle, flaming drop pods and gunned down corpses indicating you're not the only ones to have fought here

[@StonedGossard_]

Zanzibar is goated in my family and friends, so much time spent on that "windmill beach""

[@SamsarasArt]

Halo CE had some of the most experimental multiplayer maps. Like boarding action where you have two space ships with 5 levels and the vacuum of space between them. Each floor on both ships had teleporters which allowed players to warp from one to the other. Chiron was also one that utilized teleporters in an interesting way. This area was a labyrinth with teleporters all over the place linked to one another in a seemingly random pattern. It made navigation tricky and confusing though it is possible to commit how all the teleporters link together to memory.

[@jokroast6912]

If you feel the editing is too much then sure don't hit that quality bar, but I do want more like this.

[@lukerucker7858]

3 lane maps make arena modes way less free flowing and casual

[@logan_jp3]

Did you mean: 343 has no idea how to make anything halo related?

[@robrulez4532]

@epic7783 You don't have to be a chef to criticize a chef. Not to mention, fans are far better at making Halo related things than 343 ever had and ever will be. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people.

[@robrulez4532]

@epic7783 ROFLMAO! Right on cue on giving me the inevitable reply like usual with you people. Since you have absolutely nothing to say to counter my comment, you had to become so obsessed with how old a comment is, lmfao. It's clear I struck a nerve. Go ahead and give me the inevitable reply like usual with you people.

[@waldrichlee305]

Based on Bungie and 343 interviews, my wild guess is because 343 prioritized competitiveness over fun

[@EngY2502]

We currently live in the minimalist dark age where corporate greed mutilates everything it touches, from franchises to culture.

[@SpecialNeedsMuffin]

Bungie shows more than telling. 343 tells so much they have nothing to show.

[@Ribbons0121R121]

I like what reach did with the older maps to give them a practical place with cool details And hang ‘em high became a fucking astounding slipspace gate area

[@newb529]

This channel name makes me miss the super bounce videos back in the day

[@twiggysmalls69]

That 10 second intro made me emotional.

[@burddog0792]

6:37 Funniest thing is they've added a bunch of cosmetics and armors that don't fit Halo at all.

[@pododododoehoh3550]

cant agree enough with the point about trying to make everything into the cannon

[@h_nt_r]

Yeah, the sad thing about Infinite for me is that the BTB gameplay trailer we saw over a year ago made me think this game would bring back Combat Evolved's awesome huge oversized maps where you could fit a Scorpion everywhere on the map. Unfortunately it ended up being the opposite with all the claustrophobic spaces. Ironically I now think that Halo 5's BTB and Warzone maps are usually way more fun to play on.

[@anonymous7564]

Part of this was due to 343 attempting to recreate what Halo 3 aspects players liked. What the consumer does not ever do is go replay what those other titles were like, and you quickly acknowledge that Halo 3 was a claustrophobic, smaller and 3-lane designed centric principle in map design. It was designed around providing players with 'easy to understand" regions and areas without compromising the accessibility of lower even much skilled players. By extension, CE and 2 had larger maps with wider open spaces, less "closed off rooms" and "areas" and was designed around it's more competitive aspects of playing, intentionally, as you weren't "meant" ever to play "video games for a living" at the era -- but you were meant to say "Get owned, Scotty!" across the room at your friend. Contrary to what many misinterpret; competition, friendly or for money, is still competition. And the removal of competition is why Halo Infinite's maps are so freaking bland. If it wasn't for the slide mechanic, ironically, these maps would be some of the worst in the series.

[@chunkis]

I hope this channel blows up, this is genuinely a really great video

[@Spartan_Jackal]

2:20 made me actually laugh out loud. Good shit, my man.

[@BajaBlastUrUterus42069]

343 is making maps more competitive than explorative

[@FlamespeedyAMV]

Which if the competitive sucks, (it does) then you are in for a bad time

[@whitedragon312]

Well, you said it, everything has to be clean and symmetrical for the pros

[@chocolatelightning]

That intro was just flashbacks to my youth

[@samiamtheman7379]

Yeah, I remember their dumb "multiplayer is just a training exercise" thing was also one of their justifications for removing playable Elites.

[@Noobster15]

I point of view before watching is they use to be made for fun but now they’re made for the competitive community like esports

[@bordapatrol4930]

every nook and cranny in Halo maps used to matter. It really spoiled other games maps for me like OW years later with 90% wasted space

[@AquaSloth]

Honestly, great fucking video. Reach is one of (if not) my favorite games in the series, and I never really thought about the maps not having *that* set piece in them. Interesting to think about. Whenever I think about older games, I think I chalk a lot of the cool shit up to naivety and not having a blueprint that “works”. It felt more like “this sounds cool, let’s throw a giant Ferris wheel in the middle of the map” and less trying to balance for comp scene. I dont think one is inherently better than the other, but it is interesting to think about the difference from halo 1/2/3 to reach on beyond.

[@vostok_-9716]

Pretty good video, enjoyable. Some of my favorite maps in shooters make no sense, like Facing Worlds in UT or that map in space made of platforms in Red Faction 2. Another problem is how vehicles are no longer the focus of BTB. In nuHalo basically all BTB maps have 3 lanes for vehicles, and trees and rocks are placed all along on their sides. It kinds of separates vehicles and players on foot, vehicles are confined on their rail roads and spartans can just pop out of the woods, fire at them, and then go back hiding. Thinking about it, 343 kind of made big maps not open enough, and small maps a little too open. Gameplay and weapons also made BTB worse I guess, big maps wouldn't need so many obstacles if DMR and newer BRs weren't so precise. In Halo 3, the slight RNG spread of the BR meant it lost effectiveness at longer range, allowing players to move out in open spaces without getting consistently completely destroyed in seconds by anyone looking at them no matter the distance. That, and vehicles being made of paper since Reach, they can easily fall to concentrated AR/BR fire. (let's not talk about Halo 4 where you could spawn with plasma pistol and plasma grenades...what were they thinking???)

[@antoniorios3856]

I think the pace of halo has sped up so much that these maps wouldn't work, would feel cramped and small

[@OP._.]

I miss super bouncing in h2 on og xbl so much.

[@GregAliano]

Chiron bit freakin killed me lmfao.

[@Hyper_Dexterity]

The title should be renamed to "Why Isn't Halo good ANYMORE?"

[@anonymous7564]

That answer is easy. Because 343 tries so very hard to cater to too many audiences instead of just making a Halo game. So in this case, they try very, very hard to please the "Halo Community" and "Casual" players of the game, which in turn leads to millions upon millions wondering "Who asked for this" without actually realizing the Halo Community did for years.

[@SynthLizard8]

I've come to realise that complaining and ranting is a sort of therapy, it's why young people are soo neurotic because their lives are a mess. This is what Halo fanbase is in right now, one big therapy session to get out some cathartic frustration and longing.

[@oversizedlegalfees7351]

This is what I’ve been saying for years. The maps don’t have to “make sense” or fit in with the lore. We’re not writing a book here. The primary goal in games should always be making the gameplay fun. Anything else isn’t understanding the medium, or should be an afterthought

[@scotthallgv]

343 left their mark on HALO for sure. Sadly, it was a gigantic dingleberry laden skid mark in their underwear.

[@graysonquarles5298]

What in the deep fried fuck is this filter my guy? Good video 10/10

[@coryt93]

Halo is Bungie’s baby and also the halo we grew up and loved. 343s version of Halo has been more focused on sweaty gameplay and it seems like they’re trying too hard and the passion doesn’t show like it did for Bungie. Don’t get me wrong, I know a lot of 343 devs truly love Halo, but a lot of them just don’t get it because they weren’t brought up with it. There is an impressive amount of iconic maps from Halo 1-3, because of unique, bold map design and an openness that contrasted a lot of other shooters, then and now. It wasn’t trying to be call of duty, or whatever game, it was its own unique thing that made the trend, not chased it. I feel like every other map now is a tight-quarters forerunner map. You can count the amount of excellent arena maps 343 has made in 3 entire games on one hand. 343 does some really good things here and there, but they just miss the big picture so very often. Great maps = great replayability. Can’t wait for forge.

[@josephcasper8803]

Missing interactivity Easter eggs and a good name to remember by

[@LegoPieOwnage]

This is a really well put together script!

[@Woessner1101]

Subbed just off the Chiron/Aqua Teen combo reference. Also great vid all around.

[@PackHunter117]

I mean it makes sense though. Militaries always have mil sims. And the idea that your Spartan is in the lore duking it out with other players is super cool.

[@infamoushacker4chan883]

Simple explanation: Bungie prioritized fun. 343 prioritizes monetization.

[@anonymous7564]

I'll fix this for you. Bungie prioritized monetization without care of the consumer. 343 prioritizes the Halo Community who flipflops when the definition of fun is, which typically removes competitive play from most of the game.

[@alienatedpoet1766]

As a writer, I've been saying this forever with 343's whole approach toward multiplayer. If they wanted to "canonize" multiplayer as simulations, that's fine. The book Halo New Blood shows that, but it isn't 1-to-1 with the games. But its like they go out of their way at every turn to be like "This match is canon, so is this one, and this next match." Holy crap 343, not everything needs to be canon to "my spartan's story" Stop telling me what's "my spartan's story" and let me make my own spartan story. Heck even the armor and coatings are at odds with this canon mentality Sure the fracture stuff is non-canon, but what about FOTUS? It seems like up until maybe now that stuff is canon. But we don't have official confirmation that FOTUS is non-canon. But if these are military simulations, why do we have a bunch of non realistic goofy stuff in the simulations? If that stuff isn't canon, then what IS supposed to be canon when you said everything is canon? Is desync canon too? It creates too many unnecessary questions. Then the few times where 343 SHOULD be hands-on with their lore, they miss the point. Like Spartan Eklund is now canonically part of Fireteam Crimson. 343... what happened to 'our spartan's story'? Did she leave before Halo 4, or were we playing as Eklund and now Spartan Ops is no longer part of "our story"? Are you actively rewriting the story YOU made for me? Why should I care about the current one if you'll just replace it by Halo 7? 343 need to stay hands off with the multiplayer "lore" tell their main story with events and cutscenes, then lay off. We don't need all this extra stuff to be LITERAL canon. 343's approach would be like Christopher Nolan comes out after Inception ends and says "Nah, Leonardo DiCaprio is in another dream." And crush every single fan-theory. Let the fans have their fan-fictions and stop shooting them down!

[@luvair6765]

I remember so many halo 2 maps by name, i can only name plaza in halo 5. I feel like that map was the most halo in 5

[@fearless3073]

It's a mix of supposed technology limitations, shitty management, and of course laziness

[@Coeaxe]

I don't think maps being geared to competitive is the biggest factor (look at the BTB maps, they aren't competitive at all but are all so watered down compared to Bungie's BTB maps ex: Sand Trap, Vahalla, Headlong or Terminal). It could definitely be one but there are definitely more issues. Games in general have had terrible map design in recent years. Halo, CoD, and Battlefield all come to mind. In CoD you have the exact opposite, Mw19, Vanguard, & kind of Cold War all have terrible map design in my opinion, and the devs have explicitly stated that those maps were designed with "safe-spots" in mind, therefore more casual-friendly. Battlefield 2042's maps are just complete trash, I don't think I can point to a single issue since there's so many. It seems DICE forgot how to design a map that caters to all playstyles. But back to Halo. One overlooked "feature" of old Halo maps were the unique engagements that aren't possible in Infinite's social playlists. Set weapon spawns affect how the map feels a ton. Think back to "The Pit," each map would start out with 1 person running to snipe, 1 to camo, 1 to rockets, etc, etc. or look at Midship/Heretic, both teams would spawn looking at each other, maybe get a kill and then rush p2/p3, etc, etc. These unique engagements made the maps feel even more special (+ the amazing layouts). This is just not possible in Infinite. Agreed w/ your point on how 343 design maps for lore reasons, that it kills all creativity and is overall a shit design choice though lmao

[@flip2.021]

Your voice makes this video very fun, thanks

[@physical_insanity]

Short answer: because 343 can't make good maps. 8:13 Yes. Frank O'Connor said it himself, they hired people who hate Halo, or rather hate it for one reason or another, and wanted to change it. Bonnie Ross isn't even a player of the games and wants to make everything lore based, melodramatic and insanely story driven. Those are the people who were bothered by the old formula, the minute minority, and for some reason they were put in charge of the franchise.

[@EthanRom]

I missed how cozy the maps were. Hanging out by the beach in Zanzibar and all. Now everything has to be in the middle of a battlefield or lore consistent with no mystery. The Headlong gate, Sandtrap mystery, why are there turrets in Snowbound? Stuff like that

[@motozealot5176]

TL;DR: 343 Sucks basically explains it

[@xcessiveO_o]

bungie knew well enough that some things are better left a mystery, 343 like you said came and had to apply their coat of paint to everything, 10 years wasted....

[@LostShipMate]

Good stuff, I hope your channel grows. New Sub. edit: Chiron TL-34 was awesome, after you spent hours memorizing every teleporter.

[@schkoopdawhoop7885]

Great vid man! Subbed. Can’t wait to see more from you.

[@lo-rez]

Good point at the end. Who is 343 making Halo for, themselves? I can almost guarantee that no Halo fan asked for any of this crap

[@FutureOfHalo]

Definitely no breathing room and virtually no room for casual play. If you go against a full team and you have a bunch of randoms, you'll get wrecked worse in infinite than in Halo 3.