Why biological sex matters, with Kathleen Stock | The Brendan O'Neill Show

Kathleen Stock, author of ‘Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism’, talks to Brendan O’Neill about the consequences of trans ideology for women, gay rights and free expression.
Read the transcript: www.spiked-online.com/2021/05...
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[@andreavalentinaperez2734]

I'm a lesbian and this professor is really inspiring, smart, articulate, rational. Such a smart and beautiful woman. Much respect. Sometimes I feel like i'm no longer included in the lgbt community because of my personal opinion on the gender ideology but firgures like Kathleen truly give me hope

[@jaynehenderson5240]

You're not alone, Andrea.

[@bkilg2509]

Did you see the kathleen stock and julie bindle stated a lesbian organisation this month ?😊

[@andreavalentinaperez2734]

@@bkilg2509 i didn't know that! What name?

[@bkilg2509]

@@andreavalentinaperez2734 it's called the Lesbian Project (no ambiguity there 😁) and Martina Navratilova is the organisations patron. It's already been called transphobic so you know it's only for women.

[@andreavalentinaperez2734]

@@bkilg2509 If it's called "transphobic" you know it's female only 🤣

[@anthonysullivan2973]

Thanks to Kathleen and Brendan, on an excellent talk, I am a father of four two boys two girls ranging in ages from 10 to 18 and the subject is an absolute minefield for me so I'm extremely thankful for some clarity and common sense on the subject, I'll definitely be buying Kathleen's book. many thanks.

[@ZootBurger]

Splendid upload, thank you. Always a delight to hear from a brave Professor who hasn't fallen prey to the insidious 'wokery' that is corrupting and ruining our best universities. 👏

[@Grappapappa]

She's an analytic philosopher. They are a tough bunch of people.

[@christinawhite6637]

Fabulous chat. I'm a heterosexual feminist spending much of my life fighting for equal rights for women and that all seems pointless with the transactional politics appearing to be taking over. Well done Maya x

[@martinkennedy5675]

The prohibition of sexual desire by mutilation, to the detriment of some but for the benefit of others, has been tried before. For three hundred years the Catholic Church castrated pre-pubescent boys to produce biddable catamites for the sexual gratification of princes of the church, and for similar reasons female genital mutilation continues in primitive societies to this day. Both of these horrific practices are regarded as grotesque abuse and it is disconcerting to see their revival under another guise.

[@richalderson6069]

All this gender/trans/identity stuff is such a headf*@k for me, I'm so glad I have podcasts like this to retreat to.

[@tobak952]

maybe you should try to expand your understanding instead of retreating to people who also don't understand it

[@richalderson6069]

@@tobak952 I don't want understand it. If you are trans, live ypur life and I'll live mine but don't expect me to believe that biological sex isn't real and that I have to see you the way you demand the rest of society shpuld.

[@tobak952]

​@@richalderson6069 if you prefer to remain ignorant you go ahead, but thanks for being honest about it atleast

[@georgesrobitaille3767]

@@tobak952 What is there to understand? Please enlighten me as to why male to female transsexuals are no different than those born in the female sex.

[@tobak952]

@@georgesrobitaille3767 obviously their bodies are different, hence why we need the word trans in the first place- but no one is saying that they arent. All people are saying is that there is a difference between sex and gender and transwomen are women

[@philoposos]

Her laugher is very pleasing. It disarms the tension of the subjects they were discussing and captivates the audience. Well, I can, at least, speak of myself, and I certainly was captivated. I am not quite sure why I follow spiked (I am not even from Europe or an English speaking country with English speaking social issues). But getting to discover that reasonable people like Kathleen Stock still exists, specially among a group I came to expect so little from (the feminists), certainly has a big role in it. I am glad she has the courage to face all the peer anger she must receive for voicing her positions. People like her make the whole world a little bit more sane and bearable for us all. And for that I am sincerely thankful.

[@lewreed1871]

"English speaking social issues". You may have nailed the problem more accurately than you know with that phrase.

[@philoposos]

@@lewreed1871 that is your first export commodity today. The sad part is that there seems to be a market for it everywhere it reaches. People seem eager to absorb and reproduce grievance politics and victimisation culture. Strange times.

[@lewreed1871]

@@philoposos I can only apologise on behalf of reasonable people. I had been preparing to leave my country permanently until the pandemic hit, largely because the culture has come to feel like that of a US college campus. I'm sick to death of it. I say that as a member of the so-called LGBT community.

[@philoposos]

@@lewreed1871 Don't apologise. It is not your fault. (I personally blame twitter). Anyways, you have my respect, man. You had all the incentives to just go along with the tide, however, you chose to remain reasonable. Shows character. If you ever find me in any social media (thasol), please, add me.

[@lewreed1871]

@@philoposos Always good to have a kindred spirit around. I also felt goodness from Kathleen Stock.

[@GLOKD]

Kathleen Stock is a calm and lucid thinker. Thanks for the intro, spiked.

[@garfieldbraithwaite8590]

Re defining women and lesbians without consent looks like old fashioned misogyny to me

[@ktwashere5637]

there was an article in Newsweek which described trans ideology as the new homophobia. Its also a modern manifestation of misogyny.

[@karentanner4002]

As a woman, I can sometimes tap into masculine traits and visa versa ...but that does not make me transgenda. As humans, we need to play a part in certain circumstances ...its not fake or a game, its about tapping into our left and right brain. Sometimes I am childish too ...sometimes , as humans, we naturally migrate to a certain set of behaviours which is normal, complex but human. But that does not make me question woman or man.... People are complex and wonderful... I once found myself , after spending time with a glawegian and naturally adopted an accent ...it never made me Scottish. Sometimes, it shows empathy and respect. But I hate how gender has now become politicised...its dystopia and breaking down relationships and society. Male and female spaces are important for so many reasons and personally, I don't want that to disappear, and neither do most men I suspect. The worst thing is that we are being labelled if we dismiss or try to openly speak about it. I respect everyone as people ...until they lose my respect.

[@ronnasurmon1656]

Correct!

[@douglasfreeman3229]

Masculine traits? What do you mean? I am reading the novels of the Bronte sisters right now. Is that a feminine trait? I consider myself a man who enjoys the novels of the Bronte sisters. I would never consider this a "feminine" trait.

[@cryaboutit7499]

@@douglasfreeman3229 masculinity could be being a quick problem solver or having a more straight forward attitude to things. Jordon Peterson explains it the best on the What is a Woman documentary kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGqbnGmOd6-CZ9k

[@balalaika852]

@@douglasfreeman3229 Exactly. Why are certain traits thought to belong to either men or women, when it's clear not one aspect of human behaviour is specific to a sex. Makes as much sense as saying tall women have male height, or men with size 5 feet have women's feet. It's nonsense.

[@perniciouspete4986]

She's saying that she's tired of being bullied by the alphabet people. She's not alone.

[@peterallum4069]

She cuts through the crap and explains all the madness in the clearest way I have ever encountered.I wish I had had her as a philosophy lecturer.

[@charliemilroy6497]

People usually get aggressive when their argument is illogical

[@jamescaley9942]

If you are secure in your identity, it doesn't matter much what other people think. The demand for official recognition and policing of pronouns arises out of a profound insecurity that a chosen identity is not real.

[@jasonchambers4495]

It does matter what other people think.

[@pseudonamed]

Very sensible and intelligent woman, thank you for a great interview

[@fabiesque]

I am soo in awe for Kathleen. I find her exquisite. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that she does not make sense to people. She is compelling, charismatic and frankly (on a lighter note) very good looking! (-:

[@ActionmediaUK]

Thank you

[@wendyb3713]

Feminism has absolutely contributed to this mess. I'm glad you addressed it.

[@natashalion8028]

If you are born into the wrong body, that mean's you've the wrong parent's !? These are my assigned parents !

[@robbiekop7]

Are they millionaires 😏 can they adopt me 😬

[@douglasfreeman3229]

I am a man who enjoys reading the novels of the Bronte sisters and have read many books by feminists and I have always preferred the company of women (and I am not into football). This has never lead me to believe I am actually a woman.

[@douglasfreeman3229]

Prof. Stock is reasonable, intelligent, calm, well-spoken, polite, thoughtful and articulate. Apparently to some these are the qualities of an "extremist". Keep it going Prof.!

[@veda1166]

I don't want to live in this world anymore it's just horrible

[@euanmacleod3738]

Hope you're doing okay.

[@skulptor]

Gender identity..how i want others to feel about me today...

[@chrisneedham5803]

I identify as a Bake off winner and now I'm a national treasure

[@James-sk4db]

My pronouns are massa/sur if you don’t use these you are transphobic.

[@karentanner4002]

Thank you ...very calm and respectful debate xxx

[@karentanner4002]

Lovely person xxxxx

[@suzannelaird4853]

Just wondering, has anyone heard of a woman prisoner identifying as a man request to serve the prison sentence in a mans prison?

[@spurge83]

Men get longer sentences for the same crimes so there's that.

[@primafacie6442]

People is public office (like home office officials responsible for prison populations) are simply to cowardly to challenge the groundswell of identity politics and woke culture today, for fear of losing their jobs. We are experiencing a tyranny of language and societal norms that only serve to shut down intelligent conversations and inhibit understanding, so impeding acceptance of all people for who and how they are.

[@John-go2bi]

Fiction is a good word in all of this

[@audreywoodward]

I literally dispair at my other gay friends who are so open minded, their brain has fallen out over gender identity.

[@user-nd9re8vr6l]

Is ironic how feminism was the first one to say “women is a social construct”, and now it has come back to bite them in the butt 😛

[@douglasfreeman3229]

I think they meant gender stereotypes and gender roles were social constructs, not actually women themselves.

[@PierreRiopelClone]

Well, you are a feminist which means you are suspicious person to me. But all what I heard from you makes so much sense, so I have to give you credit for it. Truth is fact not feelings. Excuse my English, coz I'm French Canadian.

[@GayFrogsTho]

This is going to rustle some jimmies.

[@OrwellsHousecat]

🍿

[@valerieurquhart3133]

Factitious disorder and in the case of the parents of the 3 year old, Factitious disorder imposed on another? Just looking at this from another angle.

[@Tina06019]

One is born a baby girl, and becomes a woman by surviving one’s childhood.

[@cooperwesley1536]

So much common sense... thus, so much "triggering."

[@douglasfreeman3229]

I have found that the term "common sense" means many different things to many different people.

[@randygault4564]

45:40 well there was also that time Madonna (among others) said that all men should kiss another man at least once in their life. I don't remember the exact quote. It might have been more than that. There's an entire genre of gay porn involving supposedly straight men.

[@douglasfreeman3229]

As a heterosexual man the thought of kissing another man makes my stomach turn, so to Madonna I say "Fuck off!".

[@joelleschachter2867]

As i am listening to this and much more about the trans story i thought why there is nearly nothing about men versus trans men in sport in bathroom and much more

[@user-nd9re8vr6l]

Society catering to women is OVER!!!!

[@micksc1]

Stay super gay Kathleen

[@douglasfreeman3229]

Super hot, too!

[@annalenafischer9549]

I think she is a very pleasant person, but I also disagree with most of what she says. Some things are just not well researched or explained, but im only making this comment to show that not all allies are extreme and hateful of the opponets site. And i did listen to the entire interview. I hope in the future people can have more common and calm conversations about such topics and we all become a little more understanding for other opinions and beliefs :)

[@L_Martin]

Which of her points do you find to be poorly researched? I am glad there are people who can disagree civilly with Prof Stock. It’s an incredibly weird time.

[@EM-cg4iy]

I wish Kathleen Stock would stop attacking heros like Julia Long and Graham Linehan. Then I could admire her unreservedly.

[@randygault4564]

31:30 She made exactly such a statement in the intro. She's an essentialist when it suits her.

[@lewreed1871]

"People with a cervix" isn't "essentialist" in your reading? This stuff keeps being hoist by its own petard.

[@user-nd9re8vr6l]

🏃‍♂️

[@Pumpkinhead77]

I'm hearing the old idea of "man bad, woman good" here.

[@54f6]

She’s fucking honking.

[@douglasfreeman3229]

What does this mean?

[@DR-nh6oo]

It helps to know if you are intending to make babies or go through the motions perhaps, but otherwise, wtf has it got to do with you? If you need to know it should be bloody obvious, pun intended.

[@suereed3474]

Actually it is. Scientists yave found that men who identify as women usually have a female chromosome when most men will yave two male chromosomes and vice versa for women who identify as men. But I don't know if all who proclaim gender misalignment have this.

[@pseudonamed]

all men have an X chromosome, I think you are confused about what exactly a "female chromosome" is?

[@biggsydaboss3410]

I find it interesting what people claim as fact. If you're simply going by incarceration rates regarding sexual crime perpetrators. Then yes it does look rather lopsided. If you take in to account the criminal court bias that favours women. As a crime, sexual assault is less one sided. Then we could also look at the evidence that shows for all crimes, men are far less likely to report it to the police. So she's wrong on calling it a fact. It can easily be showing to be not so factual.

[@OrwellsHousecat]

domesticviolenceresearch.org

[@biggsydaboss3410]

@Burnt Matches Nah, you're cool. 😊

[@OrwellsHousecat]

@Burnt Matches troll

[@hooligan9794]

I don't think that misogyny is at work. I think it just happen that women (for obvious reasons) care more about excluding trans folk from their traditionally protected spaces. If men started kicking up a fuss, they would be attacked with just as much vitriol.

[@ActionmediaUK]

Trans folk are men! Men Read 'The Monster speaks'

[@hooligan9794]

@@ActionmediaUK Are trans-men men?

[@ktwashere5637]

the issue is not the trans people for f's sake. Its that the demands the trnas people make enable someone like Wayne Couzens (look him up if you are not British) to say "yeah I am a woman now" and the authorities would be legally required to move him to a women's prison. If trans folk were decent they would not be demanding that this happens. And if they genuinely were women they would understand ouir point of view.

[@Tina06019]

@@hooligan9794 No. They are women who want to identify as men.

[@randygault4564]

37:35 this claim only makes sense if you assume biological women are inferior, in the particular roles.

[@frazerduncan356]

Randy, you're a loser mate.

[@OrwellsHousecat]

Not true?

[@charliemilroy6497]

You lost me with the claim on ageism. It's about kids being taught to ignore wisdom and ironically real lived experience. They are not going against people because they are old, it's because they don't agree with them.

[@Deepfake820]

A biologically determined bell curve? Now who would have thought? She is a bit behind on that one. It's called the Swedish paradox

[@jamesbryant8133]

Sad to see my comment about the professor was deleted. I guess you didn't want her to be offended...... I didn't insult her, just questioned her motives, even agreed about trans yet comment was scrubbed for image. I thought you held yourself to a higher ideal but I guess not. Have to unsub, can't endorse the behaviour.

[@OrwellsHousecat]

YT deletes comments sometimes - it scans for certain trigger words etc

[@ZambeziKid]

BO is a clear transphobe.

[@douglasfreeman3229]

Yes. He is afraid of the prefix "trans". I am a "postphobe" myself, although the prefix "pre" freaks me out on Sundays, when I become a "prephobe", before becoming a "postphobe" again on Monday.