Why Both Anakin's Apprentices Used Reverse Grip (Brilliant) - Star Wars Explained

[@sir_beatdown1015]

"Ahsoka is more precise and reserved, where as starkiller is more unleashed." I see what you did there.

[@cheeznipz8891]

I don’t get it🗿

[@sir_beatdown1015]

@@cheeznipz8891 The Force Unleashed is the game Starkiller is from.

[@taylorgarrett793]

@@sir_beatdown1015 i guess ya could say he really likes to unleash his powers :P

[@afrophoenix3111]

Roll credits...

[@Silverauren]

​​@@taylorgarrett793 *Proceeds to hunt all the elderly in the galaxy, even his own father*

[@IRBitterSoB]

Also worth noting is that Ahsoka became Anakin's padawan not long after the battle of Geonosis, where Anakin witnessed most of the Jedi died to those battledroid group tactics, so that would probably seem like the #1 threat in his eyes. Although Shien was not popular, I wonder how many of the surviving Jedi there used Soresu, since it was supposed to be the blaster-defensive one.

[@grumpygoat117]

Couldn't cite where I read/heard this, so grain of salt, but I seem to recall something/someone saying that out of all the Jedi to take part in the first fight on Geonosis, none of those who practiced Soresu fell. While this makes some sense, as like you said it is the supreme defensive form, I couldn't say exactly where I heard this since it was so very long ago.

[@dougdayz7079]

Obi Wan was one of them

[@LoneWolf5960]

@@grumpygoat117 What you've said is true to what I remember also. In addition and oddly enough, those who practiced Nii-man (Form 6, which has it's main roots from Soresu) mostly died out in the first fight on Geonosis. Kind of strange if you ask me. It may have to due to the fact Form 6 was popular to the Jedi Counselors who needed to practice a decent lightsaber form but practiced the bare minimum since it focused on force-based attacks added to lightsaber sequences and less on various forms of swordplay. Jack-of-all-trades but master of none lightsaber fighting style, but with more force based attacks. Probably why most of the Nii-man practitioners died off I guess, even though the root of Nii-man is Soresu.

[@AndorRadnai]

Obi Wan was the undisputed master of Soresu if I am not mistaken.

[@LoneWolf5960]

@@AndorRadnai You are not. Windu considered him THE master of Soresu, the embodiment of the form. Much like Dooku embody Makashi.

[@darylsdesigns6679]

Both of Anakin’s students employed the Shien reversed grip. Both of Darth Tyranus’ students employed Jar’Kai fighting techniques Both of Obi-Wan’s students would go on to master the Djem So variant of Form V

[@samuel_saysske1355]

Did Qui-Gon use Jar Kai??

[@darylsdesigns6679]

@@samuel_saysske1355 I meant Ventress and Grevious, probably could’ve said Darth Tyranus

[@dancooke8811]

Actually in The Clone Wars it was stated Ahsoka was trained by Yoda in Ataru.

[@dancooke8811]

No he used Form IV Ataru

[@dancooke8811]

Ventress not to sure...Grievous was trained by Dooku in Makashi and other basic forms of combat then he made his own.

[@deoge3278]

That clip of Starkiller slipping in n out of the shadows...picking those storm troopers off silently. Its so badass. It kinda makes me think of Leon the Professional.

[@BlackyBlackerson]

Man. Galen Marek is probably my favorite character that’s been non-canonized. Even though he was “only” a video game character, his story was so well developed, and playing through his story across 2 games endeared him to many fans. Not to mention, Sam Witwer is a super fan right alongside many of us. Sure would be nice if they’d re-canonize this character and give him an appearance in something new.

[@robertstevens7033]

I want a story about Star Killer. Witwer deserves a shot at playing him live action

[@FirstKingPotato]

I hope that he doesn't get added back to canon since they'd have to nerf the hell out of him to fit in.

[@aidanlafountain3206]

What makes it worse is that the second game involved cloned force users done by vader which Sidious could have learned about which would have made the whole /but somehow he returned/ bullshit make more sense if they were both in the same canon but no they de-canonized it then did it anyway.

[@alexandermaxwell9099]

@@FirstKingPotatothat’s fine. I want him to exist. He doesn’t have to be op. Even his place as vaders apprentice is so unique

[@DemonicAlduin]

​@@FirstKingPotatothey could always bring him back as a clone from FU2 as that would explain why his power is not as op

[@wraith1771]

I don’t know if it was accidental or intentional by the writers, but having both of his apprentices using similar styles is quite cool.

[@AllardRT]

And both debuted the same year too, months apart.

[@b1_boom411]

Reverse grip in the real world is actually very exposing. Starkiller and Ahsoka were able to utilize it due to the agility, and perhaps due to their connection to the force, while in the real word, even two swords leaves you very exposed. This is most likely because in the real world, duelists don't run past each other for a backhand strike, but rather focus their target in front of them, and focus solely on them. It also sacrifices your reach, so in a duel irl, you are setting yourself up to lose. We also don't have the force at our disposal to amlify our pathetic human forms. A youtuber I follow called Sellsword Arts has mutliple videos and shorts explaining this much more in-depth, and with all different types of swords.

[@ericschuller908]

I have to agree. I prefer longer blades and longer handles - most of my swords are about 50 to 60 inches long - since I can wield such large weapons with one or both hands for flexibility, strength, and variability. It also compliments my size, since I'm about 6'2 and I have a wide stance in my upper body due to having much broader shoulders than is usual for someone my height. Shit, my fucking arm span is a full 2 inches wider than I am tall. I prefer to keep opponents at a distance and use my size and strength to wear them down while switching between one and two hands.

[@ericschuller908]

Letting someone get too far into your stance is just asking to get hurt.

[@themutualfriend5286]

I follow them as well :)

[@BachBusoni]

The only in-universe explanation that holds water for me is the idea that reverse grip is a better way to block/deflect blaster fire from behind, which is obviously irrelevant in real life.

[@dianapennepacker6854]

Yeah there are few instances where reverse grip makes sense. Same with double bladed light Sabres. Now an alien or robot could make it work. I'd love someone animate one of them that used them and where it made sense. That would be one hell of a complicated project though and I wouldn't even know where to begin to how it would look. Probably would look ridiculous haha.

[@EisenhowerPark]

I've tried reverse grip with my practice sabers and in VR. One seriously needs telepathic ninja powers to make that style useful.

[@georgizahariev7639]

For me worked quite well

[@spartan1347981]

@@georgizahariev7639 it has its limitations and just isn't as practical as holding the sword normally, but it does have a few positives going for it at least

[@spartan1347981]

@@thaynealexander oh shit I said sword lmao I meant saber, obviously irl sword styles reverse grip just isn't practical whatsoever, I should've clarified in universe it has some benefits

[@JordanReedYT]

@@thaynealexander The Shinobi 🥷 of Nippon lore often wielded a Ninjato with a secondary Shuto in a reverse grip defensively. There are very specific swords, styles, and methodologies that come into plan.

[@vast9467]

It also helps when fighting people in Star Wars

[@JKurayami]

I think what works most is that they don't only use the reverse grip. They fluidly go from reverse, to normal, then back and forth again. In real life it's hard to do that with a sword practically in the middle of combat, especially depending on the shape of the grip. But the smooth cylindrical shapes of the sablers, and the Force allows for this effortlessly.

[@codylane1415]

You got to think it's mainly a handle they are throwing the beam does not way that much

[@TheWolfman112]

​@@codylane1415 Actually, in canon, the blade has a "gyroscopic" effect, simulating the effect of carrying an actual weighted blade.

[@TheWolfman112]

Source: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHrIl51smbSbpK8

[@nik021298]

Wow, the source is the actual official Star Wars youtube channel. That's impressive.

[@TheWolfman112]

@@nik021298 No better source than the actual people that came up with it lol

[@juniorboy1815]

I’m obsessed with the idea of Ahsoka and Starkiller meeting/Fighting. That would be a really interesting dynamic, Anakin’s apprentice meets Darth Vader’s apprentice.

[@agssilv5919]

well a fight is a no no unless u want ashoka dead

[@W1ckedshort]

Nuke vs coughing baby

[@unlucky7s561]

Dueling Starkiller would be a career ender for Ashoka. Sorry to say eventhough I adore her. She would have to master Soresu midfight just to survive.

[@danielcox7629]

Her force powers aren't up to the task of dealing with his force powers.

[@TLim-mr7ro]

Starkiller was specifically trained in the dark force to be a weapon for Vader, no way Ahsoka would stand a fighting chance. Not to mention his OP offensive force abilities that took even Sith masters decades to learn. Like his Force Lighting, which was so strong that he could utilize Sith Seeker as the only known user.

[@areafurrynone1913]

3:26 Is nobody gonna talk about how smooth these transitions are?!!??

[@matttan8066]

Honestly anakin is a jedi master that the council didnt notice and his two apprentices are amazing that both trained from the dark and light side of the force by him as anakin and darth vader. Anakin should be proud of them and especially his son luke as well.

[@LoneWolf5960]

But not the emotional maturity of a Jedi Master, and to be fair was a little too emotional when he acts towards some action. Given Anakin's life up to Revenge of the Sith, it's understandable and even reasonable given his situation. Still not acceptable and I would have agreed with the Council if I were in their shoes. Not that Anakin wanted to be a Jedi Master (yet), he just wanted access to knowledge that could only be accessed by a Jedi Master without letting anyone know of his relationship to Padme.

[@crimsonfire6932]

Technically both of his apprentices are failures. Ahsoka never got passed the rank of Padawan, and Starkiller never became a banite Sith apprentice. Anakin is also technically a failure since he never achieved the rank of master as a Jedi or a Sith. But ahsoka was more powerful than any knight. Starkiller defeated Vader twice. And Anakin was more powerful than most council members and Vader was more powerful than most Banite Sith before him, even killed Tyranus. So being powerful does not necessarily make you successful in your space cult.

[@LoneWolf5960]

@@crimsonfire6932 Indeed

[@spartan1347981]

@@LoneWolf5960 I agree, he didn't have the emotional maturity (tbf he was only like, 21 at the time of revenge of the sith) or really a good technique/knowledge in the force since he was more combat oriented. Both these things I believe a master needs, even if he was probably "the" master of djem so in the order, surpassing anyone elses expertise in the style

[@matttan8066]

@@LoneWolf5960 both failures yet thdy survived except starkiller his one is complicated

[@venkelos6996]

I find it telling that both of them also dual-wield lightsabers; another practice frowned upon by the Jedi. It sort of makes me hope that Cal Kestus might also gain a more available option to do this. I really like that he had a db saber option; I even usually put up with going to Dathomir early to unlock it that little bit sooner, but he only dual-wields as a combo ender, and it could be cool for him to evolve his style in this way. Anyway, yeah, both Galen and Ahsoka use two lightsabers, and I Luke to think these can also offset some of Form V's failings. It's notable that Anakin rarely does, and he pays for it the one time, yet both of his apprentices do.

[@finlayames6216]

Technically Galen never dual wielded, his clone did.

[@dennis7515]

Cal gets a dual wield option in the new Jedi survivor, if you look in the trailer, you can see it

[@trueredpanda1538]

@@finlayames6216 this is true, but I wouldn't be supprised if Galen was capable to dual wield just as effective as well to be fair.

[@finlayames6216]

@@trueredpanda1538 it wouldn’t surprise me if he was capable, though maybe not quite as good since otherwise his pragmatic nature would use it instead.

[@AndorRadnai]

I think his defeat while using a two saber approach was due to him being less experienced in the defensive use of it at the time, even though he displayed masterful bladework on the offensive. Mind you, he did not gain a massive advantage over Barriss Offee by using two sabers, maybe because of him neglecting the practice over the course of the war.

[@Kazuma11290]

I always figured Anakin taught Ahsoka the form as an advantage against hordes of blasters during the war. And consciously Vader taught it to Starkiller for the same reason, but subconciously because Anakin missed his pseudo-daughter Snips.

[@dancooke8811]

He didn't...Yoda did it says so in The Clone Wars series he taught her the combat form Anakin only gave her a training exercise against Clones with Blasters set to stun.

[@Kazuma11290]

@@dancooke8811 Meh. That's lame. I'm sticking with my headcanon.

[@callous2k486]

@@Kazuma11290 it makes complete sense. You’re forgetting that all younglings are trained by Yoda until they’re old enough to become Padawans to other Jedi

[@Kazuma11290]

​@@callous2k486 Yeah, no. It does make sense. It's just lame. I'd only expect Yoda to teach the younglings Shii-Cho, for being the most fundamental skills, and Niman to Padawans for being the all-rounder style. Both of which I believe were popular styles in that era, and would have allowed the most range for the Sniplettes to grow individually.

[@callous2k486]

@@Kazuma11290 it’s possible he just noticed that Ahsoka was much more agile than the other younglings, and so decided to teach her Form IV as he could tell she’d be good at it

[@jsrocker248]

Can we talk about 3:19 and those fantastic cuts between each movie and series?! That was beautiful

[@jinxie712]

Was thinking the same thing. Had to keep rewatching that.

[@ericblue5436]

Ahsoka Tano & Galen Marek; two of my favorite wielders of the lightsaber! In my own experience, wielding a blade in the reverse grip is solely for parrying an attack to throw your opponent off & leave them open for a counterattack. This is not something that comes easy! It requires lots of training and patience to be able to defend yourself properly with the reverse grip...patience that isn't organic to most individuals. If you use two blades with the reverse grip like Ahsoka, it still requires lots of training and patience to do it right. The people I know who would use reverse grip dual-wield are wild and unpredictable with their fighting style, which makes them more dangerous to their opponent because the opponent often doesn't know what to do.

[@Nempo13]

However, you wouldn't ACTUALLY be able to parry crap. I swing my lightsaber with a traditional grip, you are reverse and blocking the attack. I will even give you the benefit and say you are stronger than me. Guess what? I just cut your arm off. Your hand cannot exert strength in a reverse grip, so you can only use roughly 10-20% of your strength in such a grip. Real world blades you would lay the blade against your arm and use your ARM to block the blow using the steel of the sword to blunt the edge of your foe's blade. With a lightsaber? I swing and hit your block, this forces the hand arm and saber in your own hand to recoil back...into your own fore arm cutting it off. Reverse grip limits your reach, spinning doesn't help as that forces you to pivot upon very predictable pathways while simultaneously limiting your view of me. You cannot have wide attacks as your hands and wrist will limit your mobility in a reverse grip and once again...your available strength will be horribly reduced. Reverse grip is used in media to look cool, that is all. Once you apply physics and biology to it you can see just how dumb of an idea it really is. There is exactly ONE style in the world that uses a reverse grip, and it is in one hand with a knife while you use an axe in the other. It is known as 'fang and claw' and was used by the Native Americans. It was a grappling style of combat where you stab the enemy to keep them pulled close then hack them to death with the axe. The reverse grip is with a small blade and you keep your hand firm as you stab downward. You make no cuts with that hand as the whole point is to bite deep and get a hold with it. Military around the world teach how to use a knife this way still, which is also why all military knives have a single edge and not double edged blades. A single edge blade lets you tug the person around by the knife stuck in them instead of cutting through them as you tug on the handle. Anyone that knows anything about combat and fighting in general looks at reverse grip with complete disdain if the blade is longer than 4-5 inches.

[@ericblue5436]

@@Nempo13 WHOA! Awful lot of force for a simple observation. I will say two things, though. Number one, I'm familiar with what you're saying here. Especially in reference to using a smaller blade for smaller, focused attacks while infighting. Number two, I don't use a lightsaber.

[@Tim_is_a_hooligan]

This theory works really well within lore , in the Bane Books they often talked about how the double end lightsaber was inferrior but the ones who learned it often had the advantages because no one was used to fighting against that syle. Having both apprentices learn a similar style make sense Vader would be like if it ain't broke why fix it

[@funnature8679]

Ahsoka with shien(form 5) with agility of ataru means they will not be just in one place rather switching positions, count dooku is about being in a similar place, yet Ahsoka and Galen will use agility so they will be in different angles and not in one place at all times. Everything about Ahsoka and Galen's form is like them swinging a luminous torch and a shield at the same time in the same hand; the torch being a plasma of their tool while moving like a gymnast or acrobatic, while being a whirling barrier, while galen moves differently when approaching his target. I've seen certain showcase of great agility of sports people or movement arts yet have no idea on the peak of agility, with great agility it's possible, it's very effective for someone who can zip around and for human ninjas with acrobatic skills is definitely enough. Also ataru's best tools for the normal hand grip are great with a lightweight and short twin items like the drumsticks, lightweight japanese fans shown in Noh theater, wakasashi is also useful too.

[@elroyjohnson4559]

In some martial arts that deal with sword or knife play they tend to alternate but rarely because of the reasons you brought up. But the only reason why they teach to switch is for control as well as in the moment you can surprise the opposition with the reverse or ice pick method. With the reverse grip you never face off head on. You strike the flank most exposed from an unexpected angle. But switch to standard asap if prolonged

[@funnature8679]

@@elroyjohnson4559 Agreed on the striking the flank and at an unexpected angle; Also the second paragraph about it mentioning the agility is only hypothetical. The first paragraph mention anout the two apprentices is about their style and how the form feels like when looking at their style. You're are correct about the things you mentioned. For anyone who is not a ninja or moving around like a acrobat it's best to use standard.grip.

[@SPCBRAWLERZ]

I fell in love with the reverse grip I saw the fighting style when Starkiller in the video games and then Ahsoka in TCW. I found it odd at first but then realized the potential and rarity of how this form was. Now even with me walking with a stick or cane, I go with reverse grip sometimes. :)

[@markcarpenter6020]

It's only useless if you have only studied fencing. In kendo it's a known stance and extremely useful. Largely for the reason you just said it catches people off guard and they aren't used to dealing with it. However if you are dealing with someone who knows or has been trained to deal with it I would suggest using a normal stance. Reverse grip severely limits your reach and has a lot of disadvantages. It's honestly best if you can switch back and forth between regular and reverse as needed cause that opens up a lot more options for you.

[@spartan1347981]

@@markcarpenter6020 these are the same limitations that anakin cited as to why he didn't like ahsoka using reverse grip, but because she was adamant on continuing to use it he instead gave her a second saber and trained her in jar Kai so that some of the limitations of her reverse grip was countered with a second blade. I like how both apprentices of Anakin used the grip style Anakin didn't like and cautioned against lol

[@Eskeletor_210]

I prefer the double bladed or just a Bo Staff

[@markcarpenter6020]

@@Eskeletor_210 for a light saber I like the double bladed as well.( For regular weapons I like the naginata). In the hands of someone who knows how to use it a staff is probably better than a sword( just normally doesn't look as cool) but spears and staves are incredibly effective weapons.

[@spartan1347981]

@@markcarpenter6020 the only issue for a lightsaber polearm type weapon (like a lightsaber pike) is that you rarely can lightsaber proof the staff portion of it, making the shaft weak to being cut by lightsabers, that and it's not an effective weapon for blocking blaster attack

[@Lord_Viscerate]

Both Ahsoka and Starkiller rarely use the reverse grip for attacks, but mostly for maneuvering. If you slow down Starkillers animations in TFU he actually almost never strikes with the backhand.

[@xenocide1307]

Ahsoka's use of forms 4 and 5-shien is comparable to Plo Koon's preferred styles, but she was more mobile where he was more physically imposing. Starkiller while using form 4, also seems to integrate much more of form 6 into his application of lightsaber combat.

[@stevenyarnell]

What an informative video! You never cease to amaze Star Wars fans like myself, sir. Keep up the good work!

[@TheStupendousWave]

Thank you!

[@starkiller9897]

Thats what made Anakin/Vader so brilliant he incorporate the old styles & infused them in essence creating his very own new style with a mash up.of the old. This is the very same technique Bruce Lee used by combining multiple martial arts!!

[@spectated8159]

3:24 - 3:34 This transition sequence was completely unnecessary and the coolest thing I've seen. Wtf man, I lost track of what you were saying because I was distracted by this randomly awesome sequence.

[@Troan_kyr_am]

The reverse grip light saber form is based off of martial arts style from the Philippines, using knives, hiding the blade onto your forearm. Let your opponent not know the true length of your blade. Therefore, you can surprise them with an attack. That’s why one of Asoka‘s light sabers is shorter than the other, for that explosive surprise attack.

[@thorn_lekoh]

To be fair dual wielding is only viable if you have one of your blades shorter than the other in general, star wars or not

[@DavidGuzman-yj3xk]

I really want to say thank you everyday I come and from the first 3 sentences, I am captivated by the story! Thank you for your amazing breakdowns and cheat codes you give us! Truly a BLESSING!

[@Mezha07]

This just proves how terrifying anakin or vader is when it comes to teaching apprentices

[@witherwolf3316]

I'm glad that effort was actually put into explaining this tactic other than "it looked cool" it acknowledges weaknesses and then gives reasons why it can work in specific circumstances.

[@RedMay]

All my life I tried using reverse grip like starkiller against my brothers when we’d fight with lightsabers, never worked out, eventually though I decided to really pay close attention to starkillers fighting style I noticed how he’d constantly swap his grip for different attacks and how aggressive he was, I started doing this since it was much easier to block with a forward grip and like starkiller my opening attacks would start and finish with the reverse, after a while I got good at it and then I actually got really good and was unstoppable… almost, I was younger so they were still stronger then me, but I did damn good after I really learned and tried

[@Abracastabya]

This can be answered simply: “because it looks cool!”

[@marcuskruger7567]

Ever since I was about 9 or 10 years old I have been teaching myself how to use a toy lightsaber. I adapted to the use of the reverse grip and I must say I do understand its disadvantages (such as leaving your front completely exposed for an attack), but I also grew up playing Star Wars The Force Unleashed & watching Star Wars The Clone Wars, so I've definitley developed an appreciation and a bit of a talent for the use of the reverse grip. BTW, my personal favorite lightsaber form would have to be Form 4: Ataru (the acrobatic form); I'd wanna specialize in that form if I could as well as Form 3 (Soresu) & both variants of Form 5.

[@qualthos1]

Reverse grip is a counter style or an assassination style. Counter style - The grip is more in line with your forearm and closer to instinctual defensive movement without a weapon, which allows for better defense. It is also easier to parry attacks to the lower body because the blade is already down. The lack of reach is an issue against faster opponents, but can be balanced by using another blade in a normal grip in the opposite hand. Assassination - the downward stab is the most powerful and penetrating of attacks, especially for daggers. Obviously very short range but if you surprise your opponent, it's the most powerful single shot you can dish out.

[@brandong.1337]

In my book the whole reverse grip thing is just a cool looking style choice from the animators. Half the time they're doing something with it they're holding it normally.

[@demonic_myst4503]

Thats just called beibg the know ut all meta nerd that answer can fit anythibg why is plasma weapons used in a sci fi film forget any in film lore people like plasma their for sells films its a buzzjill meta boring way of viewing things

[@CharlieHepp]

@@demonic_myst4503 The Secret rise up solo

[@krimsonentertainment4717]

My point of view on it: since you can enhance your swing strength using the force you could choose to swing a reverse grip saber the same way you would a baton. It would hit hard and fast, a power blow rather than a quick cut. For defense against sabers it could potentially be dangerous, pushing your own saber closer to your own body. However should you prove strong and your fingers nimble enough, you could spin your blades in your hand the same way you could spin a bottle in your hand and essentially rotate the force of the opponents swing away from you and make a opening. Think of Greivous and his spinning saber hands but instead of his hands rotating its only the sabers. A duelist could use that to disarm, confuse, parry, feint, apply more force, and give you greater benefit for defense. But you need to use it smartly and not wildly like a sith marauder.

[@powerofanime1]

I feel reverse grip is like an EXP Potion in RPGs. A good boost to a new player, to help them survive when they start out, but rapidly becomes pointless and even hindering as they gain real experience. Adding Ataru helps with that, but I can't help feeling it's more a compensation thing than an improvement thing.

[@DeusEstNatura]

Because it is the hardest to master by having lots of oppenings defensively. If you can master defending yourself while also throwing off your opponent fighting unconventionally it gives you the biggest advantage. Similar to using a whip or dual sided lightsaber only few could master it and threw the opponent as people tend to have their own combo tricks on conventional duels, so something that completely throws off their plan gives you a huge advantage.

[@funnature8679]

To the Jar'kai style is simply to items used to swing around, and each "lightsaber" is different in obvious and subtle ways, Cal kestis is long grip like a shinai handle, then anakin is normal sized, with the center of gravity near the bottom 1/3 maybe, obi-wan's is lighter and palpatine is small for single hand, and very easy to twirl and manuver around the bottom; two is possible. I bet Palpatine's plasma blades are easy to twirl around the hands; also slippery to complement his speed .

[@rudybaran]

Great episode (as always ^^) Whenever I see clips with Starkiller I can't stop thinking how great of a cast Sam Witwer would be in a series about Starkiller and how deep, intruiging and emotional this character is...

[@MoFiTheMagnificent]

The big reason I want starkiller brought back into canon is to see the Padawan of anakin versus the apprentice of Vader fight in a duel. I can also see starkiller being an inspiration for "starkiller base" similar to how he inspired the rebellion logo in his game. A team up with maul to take down sidious and Vader is possible as well. Lots of possibilities for his character

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

Disney will ruin him

[@stevenyarnell]

Labelling an ''expanded universe'' character as ''Disney Canon'' would be an insult in itself! We saw that with Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Leia Organa.

[@AndreVeaseyJr]

Not confident about canonizing him but would like to see Jensaari, EvanNova95, or a versus series youtuber do a match up.

[@paulguthrie4857]

This is the kind of stuff my brother and I would sit around and discuss. Kudos!

[@shkotayd9749]

The ONE show I have seen making a, icepick grip look viable, are the old Zatoichi films from the 60s and early 70s. Zatoichi Challenged for instance, where he fights a technically sound samurai at the end? As a BLIND man, he made it look viable. Its a form of style that might work MUCH better with the force as your ally. But Zatoichi in the film made it look viable there too. I suggest everyone giving the WHOLE film a watch. it is a masterpiece.

[@stewartknoll2338]

I love the tactical uses of perfecting different forms and utilizing them all in a unique way. Very high IQ move right there.

[@kamenrangerzeo8251]

Imagine if Galen Marek (Starkiller) and Ahsoka were around at the same time frame and worked together with Anakin Skywalker. They would be considered the sword and shield to Anakin/Vader if Ahsoka and Galen joined his side. (Possible what if scenario there?)

[@Lemuel928]

So more Lego Star Wars Time Travel?

[@holeeshi9959]

if ahsoka fell along with Darth Vader, and Darth Vader didn't get burned, this could very well happen. Emperor Vader, with his right and left hand

[@barryallen9198]

@@holeeshi9959 breaks the rule of two tho

[@jaieregilmore971]

@@barryallen9198Sith break rules a lot times.

[@magsy0358]

That’s some funky outro song

[@augustleo8368]

To quote Shadiversity, the reverse grip is stupid. You lose range and power in the attacks.

[@Endariel]

I think the main reason that reverse grip even exists in SW is to impress the audience. It is like taking a handicap and still be good, so of course a viewer would be impressed. Already a regular Lightsaber is a very uneffective weapon for a regular human in a world without the force. As much as I love it in fiction. It has no weight, no crossguard and has no "blade" that cuts but it sort of omnidirectional, meaning the risk to harm yourself would in RL be excessive. And a reverse grip would massively multiply the likelyhood that with a reverse LS would would cripple yourself in seconds. Unless there is the force that gives you telepathy and super-sense and a plethora of superpowers all at the same time. In actuality, it is a miracle we know of no Jedi or Sith who actually crippled or killed themselves with how bad Lightsabers in real are. You'd just have to invent a machine gun shotting massive amounts of rounds, and any Jedi or Sith would be toast. Heck a regular SWAT team with modern bullet guns would kill any of them easily. Sorry for that. ^^

[@TheAncientSith]

Ahsoka and Starkiller were two of the not-so Jedi to actually give Darth Vader a good fight, and they were both trained by the dude.

[@BSM-vw6cf]

I wish Starkiller and Ahsoka met, maybe sometime after the battle of Endor when Ahsoka realized Anakin turned back to the light.

[@TheAncientSith]

@@BSM-vw6cf I wonder if Starkiller will ever be canon since we got that nice Easter Egg of his armor in Andor. Many people think Disney would waste him though.

[@BSM-vw6cf]

@Crimson Acolyte as much as I want Starkiller to be canon I feel like Disney would ruin him unless they can stay true to who he was before.

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

Ashoka tano hanging with maul and vader made no sense

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

@@TheAncientSith Disney will ruin him

[@j-p4194]

Very well researched, great video!

[@finlayames6216]

Ashoka wasn’t trained from scratch by Anakin though, she had already obviously received some training as a youngling and used reverse grip from as soon as we saw her (which was the same as when Anakin saw her). So while he never corrected her (yes I said corrected, reverse grip makes no sense unless the users body is anatomically different to ours and at the point is it even reverse grip) he also didn’t start teaching her that.

[@guillaume___crl]

Great editing and footage selection ! 😎

[@sanjurohanamizuki6181]

in real life , a reverse grip had a great deal of usefulness . If you were fighting inside with your long sword , a reverse grip would shorten it , making a small space less of a hindrance . It can also be used to control the distance between yourself and opponent , either by getting so far inside the range of their weapon that it becomes awkward to use , or by making it hard for them to judge the length of your reach and breed a hesitation to get close enough to strike you . Also , purposely leaving openings in one's defense can draw your opponent into a predictable attack , creating an anticipated opening to strike them ... " one must move their enemy , not be moved by them " Tsun Tzu

[@robertagu5533]

Exactly or your playing their games an embraced into their strategies. Many on here only like traditional an would also fall to these unconventional users unable to adapt. An in death duals and battle not being as flexible and adaptive can be fatal

[@m4r00123]

If you find yourself needing to shorten the longsword, you don't use the longsword. In terms of distance control, you're the one being controlled and you are forced to enter oponent's strike range well before you reach yours which puts you in a disadvantage. Furthermore, your thrusting capability is severely limited.

[@crushedscouter9522]

Lol no it doesn't. It's absolutely useless

[@crushedscouter9522]

This comment makes me laugh every time I see it🤣🤣 you have to possess no common sense to think a reverse grip is a good thing.

[@thenationaltimelyactionhou9328]

Starkiller: Imma bout to Unleash the Force!

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

It looks very cool, but in practice, it's far, far worse for literally everything.

[@markcarpenter6020]

Yes and no. Technically it's worse for most things however it's very good for catching people off guard. Since it's not used often specially in western sword styles most people have trouble predicting your movements and have trouble knowing how to block the attacks from (what's to them) very strange angles. I think limiting yourself to just a reverse grip is bad but being able to switch between a regular and reverse grip at will opens up a lot of options. It was part of my personal style after I studied kendo when I was in the military (I had originally studied fencing)

[@chrisortega7521]

Awesome montage editing starting at 3:20. Very well done! Seamless transitions like that are diamonds in videos. Good work!!!

[@j-dawgboneyard6699]

Galen Marek was one of the first to use reverse grip. Dave Filoni just wants to copy starkiller and have Ahsoka do the same exact thing.

[@Elemento0420]

Revenge of the sith game in 2005 had jedi enemies with reverse grip. And Clone Wars 2008 film out before Force Unleashed. So Starkiller copied other people as both holding a lightsaber and being Anakin's apprentice.

[@joelthomas6350]

Also, Ahsoka was created by George Lucas and Dave, not Dave alone. Marek was created by Haden Blackman…

[@j-dawgboneyard6699]

@@joelthomas6350 yeah, but George wanted to kill Ahsoka off at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Dave wanted to keep Ahsoka alive. Sounds like to me that Dave and Disney ignored George Lucas. In fact, they ignored a lot of his ideas.

[@joelthomas6350]

@@j-dawgboneyard6699 I agree, they changed some things. But the point is Ahsoka is by no means a “copy” of Starkiller. She was an original Lucas character.

[@j-dawgboneyard6699]

@@joelthomas6350 you gotta think about this, before 2008 Clone Wars series was created, who ever heard or knew anything about an Ahsoka? NO ONE.

[@zodrickzheioh7318]

honestly hadn't even thought of it, but it makes a lot of sense, Being unorthodox will always have an advantage when paired with the right skill set.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

Anyone who's ever tried to use a sword will tell you reverse grip is literally THE WORST thing you could ever do lol. Don't listen to drivel written by people who write without basic research. 😆 It's ONLY value is as a purely defensive "shield" on one side of your body to parry attacks on that side. It's useless for offence and being a light saber than can harm you seriously if it even touches you, having that reverse grip is seriously dangers to the wielder.

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

Anything that you could do with a reverse grip, you could do better with a real grip. Unless you're trying to use it on yourself, I guess.

[@HellionSol]

There’s something you arent considering here. It looks cool

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

@@HellionSol It looks a lot less cool the more you know.

Yes but the people who use it are also magicians so realistic rules don't really apply, same with saber staff

[@markcarpenter6020]

It's not "the worst", if you know what your doing it's pretty damn effective. It's not compatible with wester fencing but it is very useful in kendo. I've studied a bit of both and found it's highly effective against someone who only knows fencing since your movements take them by surprise and they often misjudge where or how to block a reverse grip blow. That said it does limit your reach and is much less effective against someone who knows how to deal with it.

[@ChronicY2K]

Anakin prepared Ahsoka for order 66 without even knowing by teaching her Shien...

[@savagedarksider7259]

Galen Marek would be A greater Sith Lord than Ashoka.

[@Elemento0420]

Well, no shit. Ahsoka has no interest in being a sith.

[@rrobroy]

Ashoka, hearted ventran from clone wars. Knew the score long before; could not go dark. Marek on the other hand had no choice. Because.

[@TheRealSladeValentine]

uduh... i wonder why that is Captain Dope

[@iluvblqck40]

The reverse grip is good for some certain moments in lightsaber duels but I wouldn’t rely on it and for blaster deflection it’s a no brainer to use it

[@charlestonjew7587]

Good insight and reasonable explanation In the broader scope, it was just another way to make lightsaber combat look cool. In the OT, it was pretty basic and simple because we'd never seen lightsabers before. In the prequels, they up the ante a lot with acrobatics, blaster deflections and the introduction of Darth Maul's dual-bladed lightsaber and later dual-wielding. Starkiller and Ahsoka reverse holding was just the next gimmick to come along. The the sequel trilogy gave us a flaming broadsword with plasma hilt-guards.

[@JordanReedYT]

I’ve actually thought about this quite regularly throughout the years, so it’s great to finally have a video that provides some clarity!

[@Suguru_Geto69]

3:26 - 3:33 so no ones gonna mention that clean ass edit

[@theallofist5461]

Cool in-universe explanation but considering the nature of a lightsaber's blade, the reverse grip with be worse here then with conventional blade where it's not liked much at all.

[@NovikNikolovic]

0:28 Subtitles: "Let's open up another Holocaust"

[@LvDalek]

Something I like about starkillers variant of this is while it’s still elegant in its own way. He has this raged beast aura to him using force grips and crushes mid saber combos.

[@Multi68stang]

I always thought the reason Starkiller used the reverse grip was because he never considered his lightsaber as his main weapon but instead considered the force to be his main weapon with the lightsaber being a accessory and it wasn’t till the events of The Force Unleased II that he focused more on improving his lightsaber combat abilities. I always thought that this is what made Starkiller so unique as where the Jedi and Sith pretty much worshiped the Force Starkiller just looked at it as a simple tool to destroy his enemies.

[@DaniG._.German]

Anakin Skywalker will forever go down as the Jedi who thought outside of the box. One of the few genuine Jedi amongst a sea of hypocrites.

[@Native_Waldo]

3:26 to 3:35 is a sick edit not gonna lie

[@MrShinoTheBugman]

it's nice to hear an explanation. I think they look ridiculous. guess I'm a bit like Tyrannus in that regard, as all I see are openings and weaknesses and awkward movements. especially directly in front of them where a duelist opponent would be.

[@blacksun6245]

Dave filoni got the reverse-grip from Starkiller

[@Raulgonzobonzo]

Anakin was a perfect master tbh

[@R35PECT77]

The fact that Ashoka survived order 66 and starkiller being able to go toe to toe with vader and sidious proves anakins teaching is exceptional

[@levifurr18]

I've always wondered this it would be badass to see starkiller and ahsoka fighting each other

[@baneleaf7025]

I thought part of his training Asoka in that form was also because it was the perfect counter to his own form so they could push themselves to the limit when training.

[@geezus7678]

If they do a Star Killer show, they need to make it a non canon and animated series. They need to make him as crazy as he was in the games. They would need to make it targeted towards adults too, for the brutality and death. That’s how they could do it right

[@Ctrooper2011]

Upon hearing how Shien was perfected by combining with Ataru, I now wonder if Makashi's blaster weakness could be countered by combining with Soresu.

[@flyingblasian1352]

One thing to note too, the reverse grip does have some improved leverage when absorbing powerful blows. It’s not used in real life because it opens you up to so many more angles of attack, but if someone were able to counter that with superhuman reflexes and speed, then the actual blows coming in would be easier to repel. If one were trained by Anakin “I only know how to power attack” Skywalker, it’s possible that this may have even been a requirement to stop them from getting physically overpowered by Djem So, especially when it comes to being trained by Vader. You can even see Obi-Wan switch from a standard 2 handed grip to a hybrid reverse grip in a blade lock with Vader during the Obi-Wan Kenobi series because Vader was physically overpowering him and driving his blade into him slowly but surely.

[@Nexsusthepro]

The reverse grip I read was originally an aspect of the making of star wars unleashed, and seeing that the profile of "always staring at the back of the character" meant the lightsaber would be rarely seen if held from the front, so a more iconic aggressive "with form" for the secret Vader apprentice

[@xjf459]

Shit this is just the absolute pure source of Star Wars lore and theory . Irrefutably the best with exceptional continuity and quality

[@Billyblue98]

I wanna say, before watching the video, I looked up The Clone Wars and The Force Unleashed Both from 2008. The Clone Wars Film was August 15, 2008, the series debuted October 3, 2008, and The Force Unleashed released on September 16, 2008 Starkiller and Ahsoka also both began using one Lightsaber and then picked up a second one later on

[@karithay]

Real reason: The writers thought it was cool with little to no thought of how it actually worked. Subsequent explanations are just trying to justify it.

[@tarkajedi3331]

Mobility is key !!! Great video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@devonrex9194]

Practice how you play. If you practice for years backhand you will be setup for success. Success I sent measured in what your style is. Is is measured is your endeavor and tenacity.

[@ss5gogetunks]

In larp combat I like using reverse in one hand and normal in the other, using the reverse grip primarily to block and the normal grip to attack

[@brokenbridge6316]

This was a very interesting look into why Ashoka and Starkiller were like this.

[@troyhencely]

Marek is as brash as Vader where as Ahsoka is a bit of Obi Wan and Anakin. I think mixing the forms was genius and it helped both Apprentices take down many opponents at once. Anakin wanted his apprentices to live if face with a whole battalion of enemy's.

[@Talvi_Sota]

„Being looked down upon“ actually has a reason. That reason being, that using reverse grip on a sword is really not the smartest thing to do. Sellswood Arts, a Channel that’s mostly about swordfighting did a very good series in videos on fighting with reversegrip. I do love Asoka and her fighting style is very unique but ye at the same time, reverse grip…..also sellswood arts did many videos on lightsabers aswell. I do recommend them

[@Marksgaming0684]

Man if only they introduced him in the series and had them fight. I would love to have seen them as a final fight for her in the Ashoka series

[@jumble513]

I thought dual reverse grip was mainly a varient of the double-bladed saber. In the Bane books DB says a double bladed saber is like a sword with a flag on the end, announcing the wielder's intentions. I thought a double bladed reverse grip would function similar, with the added advantage of being able to psych out an opponent with the off-hand weapon. It also offers balance for those using the more acrobatic ataru form. I really liked your contextualization for those characters. Made a lot of sense ❤

[@duroprem]

I'm pretty sure the primary reason is that it's because it looks cool. I understand the need to weave some lore around it, but seeing as the reverse grip is practically useless regardless of the weapon you use (except some very specific situations), I'm betting the rule of cool is what it all comes down to.

[@Bierserker]

The image at 0:20 perfectly illustrates the main reason you would not want to use a reverse grip in a light saber duel, no matter how unusual that would be. Vader is closer than he needs to be to land a hit yet Starkiller still is out of range. In addition to that, a reverse grip limits the range of motion of the blade and most, if not all of the advantages it could have in a real world duel with steel weapons, simply don't apply to lightsabers.

[@yunusemreselcuk2128]

A nice and informative video, thanks a lot.

[@MrTraveler33]

Actually you seen the shirt with the Jedi missing the leg. Reverse grip protects the wide stance just like lead foot for darth maul and his staff style fighting.

[@jsolo1271]

Star Killer was given an NBA Jam-level skillset for the style of the game.

[@chrisshorten4406]

I use a reverse grip when sword fighting, as (for me specifically) it allows for quick and wide strikes, powered with the "swing of a fist". It definitely has weaknesses, but it also has some unique advantages that shouldn't be totally ignored.

[@Tateisadrummachine]

God this makes me wish TFU2 was more fleshed out. The combat in that game with dual sabers was just perfect.

[@martinmolloy3544]

The old adage-the best defense is a good offense! And always strike first clmes to mind and is obviously anakin's way as well

[@jamesblake5176]

this kind of in-depth explanation of the types of different fighting styles is just 1 great example of what makes epic fantasies like star wars so special, and it's also a prime exhibit of what's been lost in the acquisition of the ip. disney's dumbing down of the wars makes me very sad.

[@gamithemighty5932]

Considering that when i see a Reverse grip user I think Ataru, more than i think of any other form. I could Instantly see why asohka used a reverse grip both for shien and ataru. first of all, If memory serves correctly, Both Ataru and Shien Are Reactionary Philosphies. both shien and ataru focus less on atacking but responding to attacks from both ranged and melee strikes. second, the reverse grip is underestimated in my opinion. an example of this theory is that catching an oponents incoming strike in a forward grip, is Harder to Repston your self with in comparison to a mere reverse grip, something not many people think about when examining the reverse grip, is that it is less about attacking or defending, and ore about ending the encoutner not the conflict as quickly and safely as possible. and since the very idea of ataru is to constantly react in moving your body out of the way of incoming blows and into a more advantageous Postion, it comes to fruition further in the examination of why a reverse grip is a better choice for the ataru from. But, as for Shien? Normally No. a More Easier to manuever form could possibly work better to block and redirect with, since soresu it self is ALSO a reactionary form. BUT the problem is that ataru shien and soresu have three specifc practices that act very differently in comparison. especially when you consider that soresu is the basis of BOTH ataru, and Shien. but again a reverse grip is easier to use a more verticle or lower guard than a forward grip. that is why i thik that anakin would feel a desire to teach asohka a user of ataru, to use a reverse grip when using shien. beause it plays to her strengths. a shorter stature, means less target area, which would make it that much easier both manuever and guard when reacting to encounters or ambushes. and while someone who is taller may find more comfort in a forwars frip someone that focuses on reaction maneuvering their body and using their blade work as a pivoting point to help determine and manuever their body into a more advatageous positon, would be able function far easier with reverse grip. since using a forward grip would require more focus than a reverse one. its one of those things that is harder to describe but easier to explan in practice,