Why did the lifespans of the Dunedain decline?

[@ulbingelias6894]

What a day after playing hours of LOTRO, watching a video from my favorite KZbinr 👍

[@istari0]

I had never thought about the effect of Arda marred on the lifespans of the Dúnedain and the idea that one's individual deeds could have such a dramatic impact on one's lifespan is completely new to me. Eldarion must have lived an exemplary and accomplished life! P.S. Could you provide more details on this Elixir of Immortality? I don't trust what I find on the internet.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Believe it or not, it's Vanilla Coke.

[@istari0]

@@DarthGandalfYT Damn! I'm allergic to that flavor.

[@bluelightzwit7447]

​@@DarthGandalfYTHeathen

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

@@DarthGandalfYT " Vanilla Coke." Normal or zero (no "sugar") 🤣

[@Alastair_]

Elves - Do nothing, get giving eternal life Men - Literally defeat Satan, get slightly longer lifespans.. for a while

[@professional_cynic98]

So eloquently put

[@tamerofhorses2200]

Yeah but the elves are tied to Arda, and cannot pass beyond it. Their "immortal" nature is actually constrained by the end of Arda, whereas humans can transcend that.

[@harryknapper1133]

The mortal nature of man is a good thing in the books. Morgoth corrupted the nature of man to fear death but truly immortal beings end up eventually being jealous of them.

[@thorshammer7883]

Personally I would call Sauron the equivalent of more like a High rank Principality in Middle Earth then literally in the exact position of Satan. Similar to something like Gog of Magog's position as 2nd place.

[@Alastair_]

@@thorshammer7883 They defeated Morgoth as well. Sauron is just like a high ranking demon that took over.

[@mcintma2]

LOL funny closing comments! Another notable thing about the Dunedain is they were generally strong and capable until close to the end. So 209 year old Aragorn was probably still quite formidable and sharp-witted!

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

5:10 TBF in Real life Genetics does play a role in the general length of a person's life (its not an absolute thing because of improved medical treatment generally increasing the span of a person.) and assuming that Numenorians have a Rare Genetic trait (from whats described seems to be a Dominant trait given that it gives a "Dilutionary effect") for increased age (via Increased Cellular regeneration, Prevention of Apoptosis ect.) than its likely that once they mix with the normal Population the numbers affected with the condition and aging will likely be smaller. So despite being Pseudoscience mostly today there is a grain of truth to it but its usually based on Conditions and abnormalities IRL. (For example Sickle Cell Genetically is autosomal dominant as in its expressed but its less sevear in People who have a heterozygous gene resulting in a condition known as Sickle Cell Trait.)

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

@@AlexFoobar104 yup sure not saying its bad or anything

[@GawainSSB]

Its not really pseudoscience either, if Dunedain blood is somehow special in a magical way, then the dilution of it resulting in lesser magic is logical

[@skatemetrix]

There's another factor as well- proximity to Valinor. Numenor was closest to Valinor of all the mortal lands. But after the fall of Numenor Valinor literally vanished from the mortal world- so there was nothing left to sustain the surviving Faithful Numenorians.

[@kyleshurmur-dg3kq]

No mate they was given long life spans for what they did durimg the war with morgoth once numenor sabk bemeath the sea they started mingling with normal.men if what ur saying is true why did aragorn live to 210 years old that stil double thay off a normal man

[@gcash8892]

@@kyleshurmur-dg3kq its both. living near valinor also gives long life.

[@nguyentrung9607]

In my opinion, at the end of Third age: - The Rangers of the North can live to be around 100 years old and their Chieftain can live from 150 - 160 years old. - The Steward of Gondor and the Prince of Dol Amroth can live from 100 - 120 years old depending on his nobility and mightiness. In addition, lesser nobles of Gondor can live from 80 - 100 years old.

[@andreasderycke42]

Good video! But I always wondered, where do you get those LotRO Gondor kings from?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

They're just screenshots of random Gondorians in Minas Tirith lol. I used Swan Knights in Dol Amroth for the Numenorean Kings because they look even better.

[@bristleconepine4120]

Question: what was / would have been Eldarion's natural lifespan? Naïvely, him being Aragorn's son, I would guess a similar or slightly shorter lifespan to Aragorn (i.e. a little less than 210). However, he's also Arwen's son, and Arwen would have all the blessings of being Elros' niece. Could Eldarion have had a lifespan of 300+ due to the ancestry from his mother?

[@CalridRobnor123srs]

As a half Elf he would have had the same choice Elrond and Arwen have to choose a mortal or immortal life, Elrond chose immortality, Arwen chose mortality, there are few cases of where this is so, but it is granted to these descended from a Certain line of Elves.

[@CalridRobnor123srs]

Both Arwen and Aragorn are descended from Elrond in some way, Arwen is Aragorns aunt, sort of. Elrond is kinda Aragorns Father, but it's complicated

[@CalridRobnor123srs]

Long story short the Valar gave the particular familly of Elrond and Elros the choice to be either mortal or immortal, Elros chose mortality and as said Elrond chose immortality. This is by no means granted to all half Elves, but Elrond and Elros earnt it in some way according to the Valar or Angels under Eru Illuvatar the one god.

[@istari0]

@@CalridRobnor123srs Only Elrond's children were given the choice. Eldarion was always a Man although quite long lived, passing his father by 3 years.

[@bristleconepine4120]

@@istari0 I am not aware of any source verifying this to be true. All I know of is *The New Shadow,* which is an abandoned work in which Tolkien mentioned in a letter, after abandoning, that it was to be about the end of Eldarion's reign, without any detail on how that reign ended (natural causes, or assassination?). Source, please.

[@brethilnen]

Cool video it is a very interesting topic,

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

Do a video on Vardamir ,son of Elros ,the king who refuzed to rule

[@captainwozza5306]

Love the ending to this masterful piece! Words of wisdom! 🤣☝

[@jonystyles9473]

Amazing lore bro thanks once again, cheers!

[@paolomesterom6899]

Great video mate!!

[@Ramborg3]

Great stuff man keep it coming!

[@GravesRWFiA]

good review but you missed one important element. Imrahil's family was said to have elven blood.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

Hallacar died age 359 and Elendil was slain aged 322 meaning Elendil might have lived as long as Hallacar if he had died of old age! Another thing to remember is that Elendil was the senior heir of Elros, 1st King of Numenor as the 4th king's eldest child was a daughter and Elendil was her senior heir. Also, Elendil did not fall under Sauron's lies and abandon Eru Illivitar, nor did he turn traitor to his king! I also have theories as to why the Heirs of Isildur died so much younger than Anarion's. Isildur had a chance to destroy Sauron forever and he did not. As for the great deeds, Isildur's line didn't have much of a chance to do any. Stability of the realm? It not all of the Angmar-Arthedain kings are recorded as fighting against Angmar so it was fairly stable. Bloodline. We know the line of Isildur remained pure, and we are also told that both of Aragon's parents were descended from Isildur and only Earendur, Arvedui, Aranarth and Aragorn are recorded as having more than one child. Also, Arnor covered most of Eriador so there was not really any land to add to their realm. Also, none of the Heirs of Isildur really knew of Sauron or his horrors as none saw what he had done so they lacked concern and they were far away from Mordor, but Meneldil and his son both knew and experienced Sauron's actions and the aftermath. The House of Anarion was responsible for the protection of the rest of Middle-Earth and did a perfect job of it! With the Chieftains of the Dunedain, they kept the people of Eriador safe, the kept peace in Eriador as best they could, they kept their bloodline pure and so they kept longer and more stable lifespans. As for Aragorn II, he protected Eriador, Gondor and Rohan, he was willing to die to give Frodo and Sam a chance to save all Middle-Earth, he restored the kingship of Arnor and Gondor, he spent many years fighting to bring peace to Middle-Earth and he had a White Tree, a living symbol of the ancient friendship between men, the Eldar and the Valar in Minas Tirith and it was treated with respect. The White Tree was something no succeeding Heir of Isildur had ever seen! Also, it is more likely that the House of Anarion did worship to Eru Illivitar than the House of Isildur as Arnor had no sacrid site, though I am sure Elendil worshipped Eru Illivitar as he had seen Eru Illivitar destroy Numenor with his own eyes!

[@Edward-nf4nc]

Also, Earnil II defeated the Haradrim, Wainriders, saved Gondor and helped defeat Angmar. I know he was far removed from Ondoher, but concerning great deeds, shouldn't he have lived much longer, or did the fall of Minas Ithil have that great an effect concerning his great deeds? As Gondor was at peace during most of his reign as Minas Morgul did not attack Gondor during his reign.

[@themediumcheese]

What're your thoughts on the fall of numenor book that came out recently? I think it's excellent

[@user-bt1pm7wo7o]

I have an Idea that I’d like to see you turn into a video. What if instead of Sam going with Frodo to Mordor, one of the other hobbits like Merry or Pipin would go with Frodo. How would that change things up with Sam being captured along with Merry or Pipin, and Frodo being with Merry or Pipin?

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

We would’ve heard the Uruk-hai say: Stupid fat hobbites! We ain’t going no further till we’ve had a breather!”

[@ZiggidyZach]

As medical technology advances we will eventually outlive Númenóreans. Hundreds of years of Sarumans upon Sarumans breaking a thing to know a thing will yield us what we've always wanted.

[@4Bobay]

Is it possible that Tar-Atanamir later became the Witch King of Angmar?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I don't think so. He's stated as dying, and his death is marked as a very important turning point for Numenor (they start clinging onto life). Him disappearing and secretly becoming a Nazgul seems too far-fetched.

[@Nagoalc]

I love the dark humor at the end of the video lol

[@tadghsmith1457]

Another reason for their decline was that they mixed their blood with lesser races of men. The perils of this is something Tolkien is always keen to warn us about.

[@zdhim2714]

I urge you to go read about the King's strife Mr. Racist.

[@tadghsmith1457]

@@zdhim2714 What about it? The Kin-strife (not “king strife”) was a civil war over maintaining the bloodline of the ancient Numenorean kings. A bloodline which conferred wisdom and extended lifespan. Once that bloodline was diluted Gondor declined. It proves my point that Tolkien believed that only the same race that created a civilisation could maintain it. The kin-strife is the middle-earth equivalent of the modern culture war, where mass-immigration is causing societal breakdown in any country that tries it.

[@zdhim2714]

@@tadghsmith1457 It literally does not however. The entire point of this episode is to show thaat Castamir's supporter (and himself) where deluded bigots because Eldacar's was not diminished by his mixed ancestry, it was the strife itself which diminished Gondor. If anything, and if you are adamant on projecting your bigotted and racist delusions and fears of "the Culture-war" and "mass-immigration" then Tolkien condemns YOU, as it is the mass-migrant Rohirrim who end up riding to save Gondor and the half-northman Eldacar and his sons who ultimately rules Gondor and crush the descendent of Castamir, still reigning over a mighty kingdom for some hundreds of years before the Great Plague ravages Middle-Earth and drains the strength of Gondor, and still then it is only because of the failure of the line of Kings (through supernatural elements, ie: the Witch-King) that Gondor enter its final phase of decline, under which it still remains a fearsome regional power.

[@tadghsmith1457]

@@zdhim2714 Irrelevant. Whatever way you try to obfuscate it, once the blood of the Numenorean kings was diluted their lifespans shortened and their wisdom reduced. Tolkien states that very plainly. That is what they were trying to prevent, as was right and proper in the interests of self-preservation. It is possible they took it too far in certain instances in the sense that some mixed-race individuals could still be of high quality, yet the principle that mixing their blood had a deleterious effect remains true, and Tolkien is clear about that. Make no mistake, If Tolkien was alive today he would be roundly condemned by the woke mob, who generally hate his work. What goes for J.K Rowling would go double for Tolkien. He would be cancelled. If you think otherwise you are a fool.

[@thorshammer7883]

This reminds me of the slow gradual decline of long lifespans of humans in the Bible after the preservation of Noah's family from the Flood and the great demonic evil that existed on mass before then. Multiple factors would play in overtime and Yahuah intentionally limiting the lifespans after the evil lawlessness that happened before the Flood when the doctrines of Watchers and evil nephilim were at the peak of their power defiling the earth and beasts and murdering the righteous and leading so many astray in abominations. Slowly over the generations after Noah divided the territories of the earth among his sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth and their own sons where their decendents would inherit, lifespans would shorten bit by bit among the nations of men especially when the doctrines and idolatry created by Watcher returned through Canaan and the Tower of Babel incident happened making Yahuah have to divide the languages up to prevent another pre flood resurrection of great evil from happening too early. Even with the Ancient Hebrews being as holy as many of them would live would slowly live shorter and shorter lives over the many generations and their decendents despite retaining it the longest where people like Job lived for over 200 years as such. This decline occurs over time and as the world grows more wicked and the more people reject Yahuah and endorse their flesh and lusts sinning so do their lifespans shorten as a judgement approaching the endtimes as it subtlely effects everything around it within the confines of the world. And there is much Yahuah and Yahusha have to do and let happen through free will in his plan to renew the world and preserve the righteous and saints and give back eternal life once the presence of sin is removed according to his will and truth fulfilling prophesy he written.

[@supernautacus]

The Younger Dryas Flood and the changes near the end of the Second Age match up.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@supernautacus Excuse me but I don't understand is what you are meaning and intending to state with these named events and how they match up. What are you referring by these 2nd Age changes and this Younger Dyras Flood?

[@supernautacus]

@@thorshammer7883 ...It's easy to study. Tolkien clearly did. ^_^

[@thorshammer7883]

@@supernautacus But what did you mean by "match up" however? In what ways or examples or conditions do they match up with the Biblical narrative?

[@supernautacus]

@@thorshammer7883 ...Study and see ^_^ that is the best way to learn.

[@sampm86]

Arnor "quickly divided"...after 850 years? ;)

[@istari0]

Anything under 1000 years is quick!

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Haha, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. 800 years is a long time for an average Man, but for the Dunedain it was only eight kings, and for the Elves it would've been a blink of the eye.

[@pippinisawesome52]

Your outtros are so unhinged I love it😂😂

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great vid

[@BelegaerTheGreat]

4:00 Wait, it was because of MORGOTH that magic faded???

[@the12th68]

If it is the fading of magic that causes the decline of their blessing, does places where magic is still stronger in middle earth help prevent it? The chieftans where raised in Rivendell where magic is still stronger. Could that have helped? Does white tree count as well? Maybe that´s why some of the kings and stewards of Gondor a but longer?

[@maesmydog6691]

Considering the marriage to a middle-man (Valacar) presumably shortened the lifespan of the Numenorians (like his son Eldacar), the marriage to the elves might have hightened it. Arwen beeing the niece of Elros (1st king of Numenor and brother to Elrond Half-Elf) would "refresh" the blood of Elessar (in our world pseudosciene) and their son.

[@strongsuccessfulweeb1400]

It's because of Eowyns stew

[@calcifiedinnerbaldur]

The ending had me laughing.

[@billychops1280]

I always just assumed that it was because enough Middle man hood made it into the lines of the dunedain through the years, which is why I sort of supported Castamer in the kin strife of Gondor, but I guess I was wrong

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The interesting thing about Castamir's reason for knocking Eldacar off the throne is that it was demonstrably false. Eldacar was already 182 when the civil war started, so it would've been fairly obvious that his lifespan hadn't been shortened. I think it was Castamir using it as a flimsy excuse to take absolute power for himself.

[@billychops1280]

@@DarthGandalfYT extremely possible but we can’t ignore the fact that the middle man blood in the Royal line was going to further reduce the lifespan along the way

[@DraconimLt]

even if that was the case, Castamir went about it completely the wrong way, and showed that in the end his true reason was greed for power and want of the throne. If it was truly just about this, he should have just let those who wanted to mix get on with it and kept his OWN line and those who agreed with him's pure and then if he was right he could say ''I told you so'' a century or so later. Or push for these policies peacefully. As it was, even many of those who agreed with him about this wouldn't follow him when he betrayed his kin, and many of those who supported him in the beginning turned on him after a few years under his Tyranny...

[@billychops1280]

@@DraconimLt right idc about his powerlust I cared about his purity of blood

[@DraconimLt]

@@billychops1280 the problem is that with Castamir you couldn't have one without the other. Then you have to choose, do you break with the guy cos you agree with one of his policies but cannot accept his powerlust, or do you argue that the end justifies the means, no matter how evil, and walk that dark path with him. Which would you do? Also, bear in mind that following a similar path on Numenor actually ended up shortening the lifespan of the Kings Men...

[@bastadimasta]

We can find reasons for it but decay is a major narrative in LOTR. Tolkien's mythos is all about corruption of the world because of deviation from God's original plan.

[@ghostlyfieldclub2930]

It feels bad seeing AI images on such a well researched video... alas, it hurts when art loses its value

[@Sionnach1601]

"Many evil things there are, not in Mordor only." You're right unfortunately about the doctors. All will be judged at some time. Anyway thank you for the video.

[@billychops1280]

But doesn’t that mean that f the Royal line continues to marry into elves, that the lifespan would increase, like if Aragorn’s son somehow married an elf would that then sky rocket his son’s life expectancy to 300?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

There's no evidence that Elven blood will enhance the lifespan of a Man. It seems to come entirely from the gifts bestowed upon them by the Valar. Galador, 1st Prince of Dol Amroth, allegedly had an Elven mother, but he still died at 125 (his father reached 126).

[@ingmigueleduardo7]

I loved the narration at 5 : 10 when you mentioned that mixing with other non tribe relatives would only accelerate the decline of dunedains and also also, while this is "pseudoscience" in our real world, in middle earth was a very real thing. Surely in our modern times when you say some scientific facts about the conservation of paternal lineages and genetics, then you are considered a "*cist", a pseudoscience follower or an exotic conspirationist !!!

[@SirBoggins]

Simple: It was Eowyn's stew 😋

[@jameslave98]

Puesdo science? It's called biology

[@Pilgrim22]

Because they mingled with lesser men.

[@christosvoskresye]

Sorry, the reason given in the books is that they were intermarrying with "lesser men", i.e., their racial inferiors. Is that offensive? It should be. It was the "racially superior" Boromir who failed, and the short, unmagical, unheroic hobbits who succeeded. This was Tolkien's way of showing that even if "racial superiority" was a thing, it is far from the most important thing.

[@tkellybrew]

Do not discount the effect of The Ring! There was woven into all the Great Rings the motif of "preservation."