Why didn't the Elves attack Angband?

[@videocrowsnest5251]

Morgoth must have had a pretty efficient logistics network (...maybe they got help from a certain order loving Mayar later known as Sauron on designing it) to grow their army while under siege. Basically all the infrastructure from food to water to weapons manufacturing and raw material harvesting/refining to training grounds to living quarters to waste disposal to pits where dragons grew and lived to prisons, torture chambers and other places of suffering, were underground and in Angband. This means the true size of Angband was in all likelihood, even accounting for supernatural powers, truly gigantic. And all of it had to be self-sufficient too, because unless there were secret tunnels allowing for small shipments to come and go, anything else would have been noticed and stopped. Everything thus was made, produced, grown, or sources from within Angband itself. So for a complete and utter nihilist, Morgoth sure put a lot of time, though and effort into working on their logistics. Especially as Angband probably also had a pretty sophisticated (or at least very functional) air circulation/ventilation system to ensure breathable air was present/toxic gas buildup wasn't an issue for all the underground sections, and likely this had to make sure of mechanical methods to function. A lighting system would also come in handy for at least a part of the labyrinthine complex for those beings that more preferred a lamp to work over darkness, so all this would mean they also needed some form of power grid/source of power to keep things running, be it machines, or enslaved elves put to work.

[@celdur4635]

Morgoth had several Maia organizing its forces. And used its "magic" to help too.

[@felixleong61]

And to think that Angband is much smaller than Utumno.......

[@CT-pi2gl]

Maybe their agriculture was based upon vast caves of fungus, mushrooms growing on the bottomless piles of the dead.

[@TurinTuram]

interesting points about the geography inside the gates of Angband. A Valar can shape mountains after all, so Angband is no doubt entirely be shaped like a nightmare for the attackers.

[@mecurio541]

You should make a Mysteries of Middle Earth installment concerning the "Sea snakes" that are referenced in the books and other marine monsters of Arda, I don't think anyone has adressed this on KZbin before.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I could, but I'm not sure if it would be worth an entire video. I'm fairly certain they're mentioned a grand total of once in Tolkien's entire work. I could include them if I make a video about various obscure creatures.

[@carrotifson1331]

Darth Gandalf Best Gandalf

[@sayagarapan1686]

My mother was the best Gandalf. She had a better beard.

[@SirBolsón]

The GOAT

[@goshlike76]

Quality video on a topic that has been the debate on many forums or countless nights in front of a fireplace.

[@wojta610cz5]

Elves should have started biological warfare and started plating trees and flowers near Angband. Morgoth would hate it so much, he would have attacked.

[@ryanwielewski5192]

Lol psychologically making him so mad he attacks too early and his forces are defeated and the siege continues on. This is actually quite close to what really happened, as ard galen spread right up to the gates of hell Morgoth attacked earlier than initially planned, he still got the victory but it wasn't a decisive victory and some of the Noldor realms survived until the battle of unnumbered tears.

[@KertaDrake]

Just play really loud music on out-of-tune lutes and poorly-made flutes! Maybe with some extremely large drums to keep up a constant beating noise that doesn't have a proper rhythm...

[@jeffagain7516]

Thanks again kind Sir, great vid. When you addressed the posed question directly with a profound "NO, a cataclysmically emphatic NO!" I laughed and immediately hit the 'Subscribe' button, recognizing your adherence to reality, not a feeble attempt to garner support for a disastrous consideration! Thanks again, look forward to viewing more of your skilled work. :)

[@ryanwielewski5192]

Do a video about Sauron's first victory against the elves and his isle of werewolves, and its ultimate downfall, would be an interesting video.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Great video, so basically the siege of angband was the best the elves could hope for out of no other better options. Giving them four hundred years of relative peace to build up their forces. Which unfortunately avail them nothing due to bad intelligence and disunity preventing them from Making use of their full force when morgoth broke the siege.

[@istari0]

Their full strength still wouldn't have allowed them to successfully invade Angband. Attacking a heavily defended fortress such as Angband successfully would have required far, far more troops than the Elves had available.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

@@istari0 still i cant imagin that all the free poples of beleriand:Noldor and sindar of hitum,falathrim of Fallas ,elves from nargothrond ,ellves of dorthonion and minas thirith,feanorians from himring,lothlann,aglond ,thargelion,estolad,sindar of doriath,and the three houses of the edain could still couldnt have taken angband

[@wedgeantillies66]

@@istari0 That's why I said siege was the best of the options available that was nothing more than a sticking plaster in regards to winning the war against Morgoth. Maybe if the elves had been united and had full strength available to prosecute the siege. Things might have gone differently, but then again with curse of the valar in affect, properly not.

[@istari0]

@@wedgeantillies66 The problem is the Elves weren't really able to build up their strength even if they had been united. Elves reproduce slowly and seldom had children in times of trouble, which pretty much characterizes the entire time from the arrival of the Noldor in Beleriand until the end of the 1st Age. Even when there were no major fighting going on, Morgoth still sent out raiders to harass the Elves. He could breed more orcs quickly so losing even a hundred orcs to kill a handful of Elves worked in his favor. The Elvish population in Beleriand from the time of the great victory of the Dagor Aglareb to the terrible defeat of the Dagor Bragollach likely did not increase much, if at all. Meanwhile Morgoth's forces continue to grow. The Elves never really had a chance; even Fëanor foresaw this as he lay dying in the aftermath of the Dagor-nuin-Giliath. I don't think it is correct to characterize what Mandos told the Noldor as a curse. Other than the part that the Valar would not allow the Noldor to return to Valinor, the rest of the Doom of Mandos was foresight into what would happen to the Noldor as a result of the Oath of Fëanor and the evil they had done in its name. Mandos did not tell the Noldor that the Valar were going to do these things to the Noldor; he told them they would bring these things down upon themselves.

[@wedgeantillies66]

@@istari0 Was more a question as to if in unity, the Noldor and rest of the elves could have had any chance of defeating Morgoth and his massive hosts of orces, balrogsd and dragons. Though on reflection agree that the numbers imbalance was far too numerous for them to overcome and even with aid of increasing population of man. Doom or curse, the results of oath still left the elves in a pretty pickle that they could never get themselves out of without the assistance of valar to defeat morgoth.

[@MilkTeaSept]

Thanks! This was a very interesting video, and answered a question which I had pondered for a long time! There was never much hope that the elves would have been able to defeat Morgoth unaided, but I always thought that their best chance to make an attempt would have been after the Dagor Aglareb. Since they had utterly destroyed the armies of Morgoth at that point, if they began a direct assault upon Angband (rather than a siege which would have done little except delay the inevitable), there might have been a slim chance of success. I see that the elves were prevented from doing so by their lack of information, and their disunity, as well as a myriad of other factors. And even if they had done so, they would have most likely failed. It is interesting, how Morgoth seems like an enemy who can physically be defeated by the exiled elves. It is in theory possible to defeat his armies and to slay him, and it seems at points that the exiles come breathtakingly close to doing so... And yet in reality, they are so, so far away! Regarding Gwindor, I do not think he got anywhere near as close as Morgoth's throne room, though I may be wrong. I believe he only got past the very outermost gates, and into the courts just outside the main gate, before being trapped. It is said in The Children of Hurin that "they burst through the outer gates and slew the guards within the very courts of Angband, and Morgoth trembled upon his deep throne, hearing them beat upon his doors" which implies that they only got into the courts, whereas Morgoth was deep down below them. I think that Gwindor could not anyway have gotten past all the mazes of Angband to reach Morgoth's throne room. Rather, the mere knocking of Morgoth's doors at the surface is enough to make him tremble in terror deep underground.

[@ShadowPhoenixMaximus]

Why didn't the elves track the orc raiders to the entrance of Angbands caverns? They could launch small expeditions to assess the impact the siege was having on Morgoth's forces.

[@Uncle_Fred]

The problem is that as mentioned, Angband was a vast network of caverns and traps. It would be impossible to enter it without a huge force. It wouldn't give you good intell either, since the forces could hide in deep areas and give the invaders a false sense of numbers.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

I suspect because they didn't have any short Irish guys to use as tunnel rats, and this early in Middle Earth's history, there weren't enough elves or men who would be that suicidal.

[@TJDious]

WHERE WAS ANGBAND WHEN THE WESTFOLD FELL

[@jackolantern147]

Attacking it probably.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

Where was Utumno when the westfold fell?

[@istari0]

Underwater.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

@@istari0 where were hilsorien ,lon dear and ostinethil ?

[@yuliakalashnikova6161]

I love your videos! The tone is right where it should be and the discussion of the political dimention is what I was really missing! Thank you very much!

[@professional_cynic98]

The content I’ve truly been waiting for

[@coryallen6818]

I think that the answer is obvious, Morgoth… While he certainly had lost some of his strength from him imbuing it into Arda to corrupt it as well on the creatures of Arda including the warping of some unfortunate elves to create orcs, and can’t forget the Maiar. Anyways it’s said that Morgoth was only matched in power by the Manwe. In fact it took the host of the Ainur, in order to subdue him, as well as fend off his regular corruption of Arda. Their also would have been who knows how many Balrog would be within the stronghold. I know that Fingolfin challenged him to a duel and did injure him, I think in a huge all out battle, Morgoths weapon Grond which is described as coming down like lightning and it caused fissures in the ground, so I imagine he would just be smashing any kind force that came within Gronds striking range.

[@saeedshahbazian9889]

Yeah but he is also scared. He doesn't want to fight. Even with Fingolfin. Later he just begs for mercy. But he could do damage if he fought in a war. Maybe if all the prices had a fight with him he would lose.

[@mingthan7028]

Against the power of Thangorodrim, there can be no victory....

[@michaelsavage7884]

Dorthonian video= Legend

[@GRWelsh7]

I guess it is for the same reason attackers besiege a castle rather than storm it. Also, it's a story about the Eldar consistently being their own worst enemies.

[@TurinTuram]

very interesting and well detailed

[@Ishkur23]

I always thought the elves' war against Morgoth was kind of hopeless right from the start. It's like: Really? You want to fight a literal god? You got anything that can kill a god? No? Then what the hell are you expecting to accomplish with this war? I mean Fingolfin's bravery and heroism is unparalleled, but seriously: Did he really expect to win?

[@eduardoalamo1240]

Well, Fëanor was a pretty rash and reckless kind of guy, he didn't care at the time if he could or not beat Morgoth, just that he somehow had to do it. When the other elves set out to Middle-earth, they didn't fully comprehend Morgoth's power and sheer impossibility of defeating him with what they had. From what we can tell, no, Fingolfin didn't expect to win, he probably wanted to go out in a blaze of glory after he believed he was seeing the doom of the Noldor.

[@Byenie0912]

Fingolfin chose to block instead of doing the roly poly that's why he lost

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

Morgoth: Woah! Woah! Woah! Woah! Come on Elves and Men Come to me through fire and war Come Fingolfin, come and look upon Angband Upon Angband Woah! I'm a god. How can you kill a god? What a grand and intoxicating influence! I'm a god! How can you kill a god? Shame on you My sweet Noldor!

[@antonionotbanderas9775]

For years I crawled the dungeons of terminal angband and I still don't really know where I was.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss i was waiting so much for thise video

[@varyar77]

that closing pun... I'm not sure if you should be proud or ashamed!

[@Disgruntled_Dave]

Both. He should be both. It was one of those things that made me laugh and groan at the same time. The resulting noise sounds surprisingly similar to crying!

[@DavidWesley]

The siege was an AngBandaid solution at best.😂

[@bomberattackcrnibombarder6402]

"Attacking Angband would resolved into a gangbang" -FAquotes

[@paulemge9156]

For some reason I read this as Why didn’t the Elves attack Angmar

[@floricadura3342]

Well in 1409 elrond gathered elves from lindon imladris and lorien and marched in angmar.We now that thise counter attack left angmar weac but not distroied .I alwais imagine the elves as marching into angmar slaing orcs and man.Thne WKgives the order to retre to carn dum,gundabad and mount gram before unlisching a shonstorm against the elves

[@alanmike6883]

Darth if you were sauron, during the war with the elves in eriador, what would you have done differently??

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Take it slower. Finish off Rivendell, and then send forces down the Gwathlo to destroy the Numenorean forts there. I would only advance on Lindon until my flanks and rear were completely secure. I'd probably still lose because the Numenoreans are deadly in a pitched battle, but I wouldn't get crushed between two different forces.

[@alanmike6883]

@@DarthGandalfYT That's not bad Darth. Also if you think of it if your plan succeeded there'd be no noldor elves after the fall of numenor if that still went ahead. If so would elendil absorb the territories and would the new capital be at the grey havens? This would be a great what if scenario.. Would the free people's lose the war of the last alliance?

[@ryanwielewski5192]

@@alanmike6883 What would you do if you were Sauron?

[@alanmike6883]

@@ryanwielewski5192 Very similar Ryan but with a few changes. Like the fingers of a hand, before I started Id send a force to distract the elves of lorien. Then when crossing the river, though the main force would be heading to eregion and eventually rivendell I send A huge force to Go up near the coast just outside Lindon acting like goalies so that when rivendell fell, I'd head West driving the denizens of eriador straight into the arms of that army like hounds to the Hunters so no survivors. Then converge on the mithlond on one big attack. Even if I still lost the casualties would be devastating especially to the elves.

[@TheMaulam12345]

hey good work, would be nice if u make something like mystery creatures of middle earth?

[@Balthasar_Gelt]

You do are very Great job

[@KertaDrake]

With the lifespans of elves and that much of Angband was likely underground, they should have started rerouting a river into the gates!

[@LeHobbitFan]

🤟 ANGBANG GANG REPRESENT! 🤟

[@bard5865]

ANGBANG!

[@ryanwielewski5192]

@@bard5865 I see you're subscribed to Survive the Jive, I also enjoy his content!

[@istari0]

I didn't think Elves matured that slowly. Slower than men but physically not by that much. I would have thought it to be on the order of 2-2.5 generations of Men.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

According to NoMe, they intellectually mature much quicker than Men (being able to walk and talk at one), but don't reach physical maturity until 50, and aren't considered an adult until 100.

[@istari0]

@@DarthGandalfYT I think the most relevant part is reaching physical maturity at 50; they could fight at that point. In the Council of Elrond, Elrond even speaks at being at Thangorodrim when he would have only been in his early to mid 50s.

[@marjae2767]

How did Morgoth feed his forces during the siege? Let alone increase them? Was he draining his own power the whole time?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I've considered that as a possibility. I honestly don't see how else he could've fed his armies. Mushrooms farms?

[@fightforaglobalfirstamendm5617]

Numbers, geography and politics.

[@lukasmeier9245]

Could you make a Video about what if the free people won the battle of unnumbred tears?

[@biropgrules]

a much better what if is what happens if fingolfin actually kills the then very weakened Morgoth, and the aftermath directly after. Even if Morgoth eventually reforms, his armies would at best have been forced out of angband due to no longer being able to avoid hunger(wheter Morgoth allowed them to ingore such due to his own magical power sustaining them, or had some magical underground farming system we dont know, but we know he somehow did, but it seems guaranteed that this would vanish with him) and the barren wastes of the north, or at worst, ripped themselves apart in a brutal evil civil war, as at this point Sauron was not strong enough to be the clear and undisputed next dark lord. How the elves might react in such a scenario, and the political borders and alliances that would have come as a result seems interesting at the very least.

[@Byenie0912]

my guess would be the end of middle earth. if morgoth was defeated earlier, no one would be able to control the massive armies lying dormant within Angband. Not even Sauron and the Balrogs would have the power to control and subdue millions of beings. Angband would be immediately overrun by mindless orcs and dragons who will simply destroy any life it sees without strategy. just pure malice for destruction. the war of wrath worked because the might of valinor decimated and nuked beleriand. without such power to contend with angband, a leaderless army would be akin to a world war z apocalypse in middle earth

[@JMACCSArmiesOfMiddleEarth]

Awsome vid man loved it! Shame the 1st age elves couldnt get their shit together

[@CharlesOffdensen]

What did the orcs eat?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Unfortunately, we have no idea. It's possible Morgoth used his own powers to sustain them.

[@micahp.4356]

​@Darth Gandalf which would be a good theory on why he was weak when the valar captured him.

[@Thoregor]

Or they just practiced cannibalism.

[@Thoregor]

​@@DarthGandalfYT also didnt Morgoth get his ass handled by Tulkas near the beginning of the first age? Or that was before time was even recorded, I dont remember that perfectly.

[@CharlesOffdensen]

@@Thoregor I don't think cannibalism can sustain a population.

[@gmansard641]

Didn't it turn into the nightmare of the Fifth Battle, the Nirneath?

[@istari0]

The Nírnaeth Arnoediad, had it succeeded, would have at best restored the situation to what it was before the Dagor Bragollach. Morgoth would have simply rebuilt his forces again and launched another major war in a few decades, probably with a lot more dragons.

[@gmansard641]

@@istari0 Yea, didn't Eonwe (or maybe Mandos himself) tell the Noldor it was hopeless in the end, just as they departed Valinor?

[@istari0]

@@gmansard641 It was Mandos who told the Noldor that the evil they had done as a consequence of the Oath of Fëanor would ultimately bring ruin upon them. Later, after the first battle the Noldor fought in Beleriand, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, Fëanor foresaw as he lay dying that the Noldor would never defeat Morgoth.

[@gmansard641]

@@istari0 The Silmarillion does not say directly (to my reading), just that "Some say it was Mandos himself. . . " though when Tolkien wrote like this it is usually true.

[@istari0]

@@gmansard641 It's possible it was a servant (probably a Maia) of Mandos but I'm inclined to think it was Mandos himself. In any event, Eönwë was the herald of Manwë.

[@sayagarapan1686]

I enjoyed this, or at least found it interesting.

[@skatemetrix]

Yes, but how was Morgoth feeding his armies when they all lived underground in the barren rock? Where did they source food from? Secretly via the far east by the Easterlings? Did Morgoth will his minions through starvation? In theory the Elves partial siege could have worked if the supply lines were cut off and, demonic Valar or not, Morgoth can't muster his dark armies if there's not enough food.

[@ryanwielewski5192]

Prisoners were fed to his werewolf and Dragons so perhaps they fed on captive elves. Also maybe they killed weaker Orcs and fed the stronger ones, just a thought, but it told that his wolf and Dragons were fed human flesh and elves.

[@Uncle_Fred]

My personal headcannon here is that Morgoth farmed huge mutant fungi growths in the depths of his fortresses, much the way some ants do today. Small, worker orcs would gather what they need in raids, while much of the nutrients is extracted from minerals, heat and chemical reactions.

[@istari0]

Tolkien never explained how Morgoth fed his armies but even during the siege of Angband, Morgoth regularly sent small groups out from the other side of Angband. Even if Morgoth was bringing in large amounts of food, clearly the Elves didn't have the manpower to maintain a full siege to cut those supply lines.

[@Uncle_Fred]

@@istari0 There must have been some sort of industrial-scale farming going on though, either within Angband or in some nearby held territories. It's the only way he could sustain a huge fighting force. He also had a lot of larger beasts like wolves, trolls, and dragons. I assume they need to eat too, and if so, their calorie intake must have been enormous. However, I don't recall Tolkien ever definitively stating if dragons eat flesh. It's not like Tolkien didn't think about these things either. Mordor had it's slave farms in Nurn, for example.

[@skatemetrix]

@@Uncle_Fred I think there were massive farms somewhere far east of Beleriand in the northern regions, perhaps in the area of north Eriador. It seems the Elves did not keep tabs on Morgoth's influence beyond the northeast part of Beleriand...

[@WarsmithValeryain]

Because Death, that's why. Elf Lord: "Any of you invulnerable?" Elf Army:.... Elf Lord: "Than we shant be fucking with that there Fortress today!"

[@Henrique-wy6cv]

first age is the best age

[@billychops1280]

To be fair Maedhros was a great leader and close second to Fingolfin so his brothers basically treating him as high king wasn’t as bad as it sounds, since basically Maedhros was a second high king in the east and unlike Fingolfin Maedhros actually held out and pushed as many forces of evil back

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Maedhros was a great leader, but even he couldn't keep his brothers in check all of the time, and they were the ones that ended up causing the big problems.

[@billychops1280]

@@DarthGandalfYT I absolutely agree and I hate Celegorm lol, but honestly it’s a little ridiculous that he’d have to keep his little brothers in check considering they were adults and noble princes

[@8_8_Purpura_Committatus_0_5]

The answer is quite easy. Angband is one big selfsustaining bunker complex with everything it needs to survive The assault of non "Godlike" powers.

[@MikaelKKarlsson]

So the host of Angband was a well sized troupe, while the Noldor had a lot of lead guitarists busy working on their emo riffs. :)

[@jdspencer60]

Fingolfin did....

[@MaGiCMushroomClouds]

Why would they? Angband is a good dude. That was a trick question wasn't it.

[@kongspeaks4778]

Basically the elves weren't having enough sex

[@Davidh41690]

Ang bang... It works

[@SamirZehar-ol1dc]

Maedhros is pronounced "mai-thros" btw :)

[@MadnessTW]

TIL that when thousands of orcs have their way with you underground, that is called an "Angbang". Interesting.

[@brethilnen]

Angbang lol

[@samuelvine]

Ang Bang? *facepalm* lmao

[@alphasierrazulu]

1th

[@markstott6689]

I wonder why, during the siege of Angband, the elves didn't encircle Thangorodrim with fortifications. Walls and towers weren't beyond the Noldor given the hundreds of years they had. 🫥

[@DarthGandalfYT]

It's definitely not a bad idea. I wonder how stone fortifications would've went against the rivers of lava Morgoth unleashed in the Dagor Bragollach.

[@markstott6689]

@DarthGandalfYT Most fortifications, such as the type I'm suggesting, would have an incredibly large ditch in front of them. Think at least 5 metres deep and 10-15 metres across. If the walls are built upon the bedrock and the ditch is filled with water, then I suspect that they will hold. Additional siege lines in front of the fortifications would soak up lava too.

[@scoobysnacker1999]

@@markstott6689 I'd guess a good part of that is that the Elves were clearly superior (to Orcs) in the open field, especially if they had cavalry. You negate some of that advantage with fortifications, and then they could also be taken and held against you. Add to that the fact they couldn't fully encircle Angband, due to the mountain range and what lay behind it... you might have your main forces tied up in the wrong places if Morgoth issued a host from around the mountains.