Why didn't the Dunedain continue Arnor?

In 1976 of the Third Age, Aranarth opted to discontinue the Kingdom of Arnor even after Angmar had been destroyed. In this video, we look at the reasons why he might have done this...
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[@user-xn9um6ne2q]

Coincidentally, I watched your video "why didn't Sauron reclaim Angmar" earlier today. If the Dunedain had reformed Arnor, then, I think, Sauron would have taken the risk to retake Angmar.

[@janvijaysingh2692]

Arnor would have been irrelevant in the time of the war of ring even in this case

[@ulbingelias6894]

In this case, yes sauron would took the risk, but both angmar and arnor would be extremely weak but I think this new arnor would still overpower the new angmar, because angmar has only the orcs of the misty mountains which are few in number, but on the other side arnor would have powerful allies like: Lindon, the Blue Mountains, Rivendell and (potentially) the Lossoth and they would be very much aware of angmar and will take active efforts to destroy it. If this new Angmar would fight the new Arnor during the war of the ring the only change I can think is that the Grey company wouldn't march south on the account of being occupied by fighting Angmar.

[@TheStrudelJonny]

not to mention sauron launched an assault on all races of middle earth(aside from a few) and the newly established arnor would’ve been wiped easily

[@istari0]

That would have required rebuilding a force capable of doing so and assumes that no serious action would be taken before Angmar was rebuilt.

[@efaristi9737]

@@ulbingelias6894By the time of the war of the ring, the orcs of the Misty Mountains grew in numbers again. I think you're overestimating the "allies". Lindon and Rivendell populations were dwindling every day, growing weaker and weaker. And it's unlikely the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains would have helped. Dwarves are generally not interested in others peoples affairs.

[@General12th]

Hi Darth! It was 1974. Disco ruled the charts, and the Witch King attacked Arthedain.

[@istari0]

Word on the street is that the Witch King hated disco!

[@neildaly2635]

Shake, shake, shake; shake, shake, shake; shake your Witchking.

[@dubya85]

Dunedain were just.....ahh ah ah ah..stayin alive

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I do find it amusing talking about dates that are close to our modern era. For example, how King Ondoher died while storming the beaches of Normandy in 1944.

[@istari0]

@@DarthGandalfYT Or the Balrog attack on Tokyo in 1980.

[@anti-liberalismo]

As for the population of Fornost, it could define be populated, it is said that most of the Dúnedain survived the fall of Fornost and were driven beyond the Lhun. Arvedui probably evacuated the civilians before the Battle.

[@user-yy5xs6xj7r]

I think you are missing an important reason here. The main political problem with rebuilding the kingdom of Arnor / Arthedain was not that there were not enough people (the degree of depopulation in Eriador is often overestimated), but that there were not enough _subjects_ of the possible new king. The main population of Eriador weren't Dunedain. While the chieftains could rule Dunedain because of their hereditary status, the rule of the kings of Arnor over other men of Eriador had been based on their power, authority and ability to be kings (=protect their subjects). After the fall of Arthedain the chieftains lost that power and authority. Why should scattered hunters and farmers pay taxes to some wandering chieftain who couldn't protect his kingdom and his people and even didn't look like a king? While the Dunedain probably could force some of those other people to pay taxes by threats and violence, they didn't want to (and also this politics would lead to more skirmishes and more scattering of the population). And without taxes the chieftains couldn't afford to have standing army, craftsmen, merchants, courtiers and other infrastructure required to re-build the kingdom.

[@Limubi1]

I think you make a good point. There was a choice between trying to rule a geographic area, which requires a civil service and a standing army that existed in Gondor through to the Fourth Age and beyond, or on the other hand have a less formal, more flexible tradition that only applied to the Dunedain as a people, rather than Eriador as a territory.

[@istari0]

This makes sense. There were too few Dúnedain left to reestablish the kingdom and in their chosen role as protectors of the people who were left, the Dúnedain could not really increase their numbers.

[@squamish4244]

@@istari0This led to a vicious circle. Without a recognized central government, population decline continued even after the defeat of Angmar, just like the population declined for centuries as the Roman Empire's central authority broke down and collapsed.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

@@istari0 They could easily increase their numbers. They could have a lot of sex and make many children. They live a long time! lol It only take 9 months to increase your population by 50%. When you live for 250 years or more.......that's a lot of kids.

[@anti-liberalismo]

Finally somebody who agrees with me! The depopulation of eriador is truly overestimated

[@tiltskillet7085]

Great video. It's interesting to think in terms of the sheer pessimism implied in naming Arthedain's heir "Last King"...Dunedain gift of foresight or no...and how that might have informed Aranarth's later decision. Maybe he'd have thought about the problem much differently if Arvedui had named him "New First King No Really Not Kidding."

[@thomasalvarez6456]

My question is why didn’t they establish larger bases, the rangers being covert probably works out more in their favour. Especially when protecting places such as the Shire, but surely a base near Lindon or Rivendell would be beneficial to the free peoples.

[@fipse]

Cirdan would definitely have allowed them to settle in Lindon. The land was quite good and most likely not very densely populated. Not sure about Rivendell, the area around it is not great to support any kind of population.

[@squamish4244]

They were based near Rivendell, in the Angle.

[@LordTelperion]

Catastrophic population collapse is the reason. It was a genocide, there were barely any humans, let alone Dunedain, left alive in the whole of Eriador after the wars of Angmar and the fall of Fornost (and every other city). There was no more economy, no trade, no government, no schools, and barely enough people left to even rebuild a small town, let alone a nation-state.

[@squamish4244]

@@LordTelperionDarth Gandalf's video on why Eriador was so depopulated goes into more detail on this. He does mention that demographics and economics were not Tolkien's strong suit, and that in our world the 400 years of the Watchful Peace would have been enough time for even a tiny population to grow to a substantial size. Someone also pointed out that Tolkien's tendency to depict certain lands as permanently empty and ruined by war must have come partly from his WW1 experiences, where the battlefields _were_ depopulated and literally ruined - and are still off-limits today. But Tolkien provides solid in-universe explanations. The collapse of central authority and the lack of a recognized king could work against recovery for a long time. After the Western Roman Empire fell apart, the population of Western Europe declined for centuries afterwards. The city of Rome was mostly abandoned. In Middle Earth, there's another dynamic. The natural world is intertwined with the forces of good and evil. It's quite reasonable to assume that the land was left poisoned by the evil of Angmar and settlement was innately difficult, even when there were no direct threats. This would have been true even during the Watchful Peace. After the Watchful Peace ended, evil slowly returned, the weather got worse, and recovery was impossible. And of course nobody was going to be settling the Barrow-Downs anytime soon...

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@squamish4244Excellent comment.

[@Wolfogre]

I always assumed that the population of Arnor was so badly depleted from the war that the land simply could not support a more advanced society, outside of scattered tribal bands of Dunedain and the occasional smaller town such as Bree. The Witch King could have ordered his armies to wage genocidal war against the economic and demographic base of Arnor (i.e. the peasantry), explicitly to cause a total collapse of the kingdom. Spending a few tens thousand lives of orcs and humans could be seen as a price Sauron would be willing to pay for that.

[@ingold1470]

It's quite possible that the only Dunedain survivors were their warrior class, good at war, diplomacy and bushcraft but not at rebuilding cities.

[@Wolfogre]

@@ingold1470 Yeah, excepting the occasional farmstead or herder, which simply wouldn't be enough to maintain a realm.

[@Byenie0912]

Middle Earth was in a perpetual dark age. Imagine only the nobility knew how to read and write. Everyone else are serfs. Orc raidings were frequent. No trade. No highway infrastructure. No advances in agriculture. Hard to develop society and increase the population because the god of technology is the enemy Meanwhile, in Mordor where the lands are almost barren and the geography is hazardous, Sauron managed to increase his army to hundreds of thousands and managed to supply and feed them. Elves seems to even refuse to share the recipe for lembas bread That thing can answer world hunger and world peace in middle earth

[@onetwothreefourfive12345]

That's a great point ​@@ingold1470

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Great video! Thanks for making it. It was really informative. I think in context, the Northern Dunedain made the right call. They were playing the long game.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

How about a video on the Chieftains of the Dunedain or the Heirs of Isildur like you did on the Kings of Gondor?

[@Limubi1]

This was a very good and informative analysis. Thank you :)

[@kazikmajster5650]

I really thought this was going to be repeated information, but DG again manages to pull out something new! Not astounding, but not terrible.

[@Kartal49ful]

Can you make a Video, what if the Balrog on Moria never awoke or wasnt there or under Erebor insted of Moria?" And Thank for all the good Videos.

[@Darrow1991]

I always wondered how the Dunedain could survive in remote settlements with few people. What did they eat, how did they make their goods, how does a young dunedain meet another young dunedain and start a family when they are so few and (apparently) scattered? That is a video that I would like to see.

[@wedgeantillies66]

Survival was the name of the game and after the war with angmar was concluded. The survivors realised that if they attempted to rebuild their former kingdom it would put a target on their backs that they no longer had the population or military might to resist. Plus adopting a guerrilla style strategy of warfare to survive and still protect their lands and people beanies them to survive until the time was right for the crownless to once more be king.

[@SCpath]

exactly.

[@wedgeantillies66]

@@SCpath Indeed and in total agreement with you.

[@searaider6340]

You’d think their numbers would of recovered enough after a thousand years or so

[@ralphdamm6579]

Exactly!! Unless there were only 8 people left in Arthedain 1000+ years is MORE than enough for a population of even just a few thousand or so to recover. I mean, think about the Black Death. The plague killed millions of humans, and it only took Europe 200 years to recover their lost number. Tolkien is not perfect and there are times when his worldbuilding makes zero sense. By the time of the War of the Ring Arnor should have been up and running again.

[@johnrambo5795]

Yeah, Tolkien wasn't really good at compreheding how much a populations changes after 1000 years.

[@tiltskillet7085]

In the real world, yeah. Small populations recover, and maybe even more than that, new populations come in. It's hard to come up with explanations that work...probably none that don't rely on making assertions that aren't directly backed up by Tolkien. But see also: "Why Was Eriador So Depopulated?" kzbin.info/www/bejne/fHXYq3x-pZlmrNUsi=2Mme5ErvX5S6MNG6

[@johnrambo5795]

@@tiltskillet7085 my explanation is, that the Land is mostly kinda worthless. Much of southern Arnor is bassicaly just grassland, not very fertile Land with very few forests, if amy. The nort is still under threat by wild animals, trolls and perhaps even small Ork raiding parties. Same with the east. Rhudaur is not a fertile Land and full of trolls. Arnor really is a Bad place to Establishe a big kingdom

[@tiltskillet7085]

@@johnrambo5795But if the lands were so worthless, kingdoms would never have been able to have been established there in the first place. Orcs, Trolls, and other threats that have no counterpart in the real world seem like the most plausible explanation with realjustification in the texts, but as far as we can tell from those texts they aren't overrunning the countryside either for most of the millennium after the fall of Arthedain. Thus Eriador meaning "Lonely Land" or "Empty Land" rather than "Monster Land".

[@LordTelperion]

It's similar to the Roman Empire and the split between the West and the East: the senior Western half failed, but the Eastern half survived for another thousand years.

[@WhoIsCalli]

Real interesting topic. Didn’t know about that prophecy

[@cavetroll666]

Cheers thanks for the video

[@whyukraine]

Will you please make a playlist of ALL your videos?

[@Antipius]

Very good video 😊

[@kurtuhlig2553]

An idea for a vid topic. The 20th and early 21st centuries of the Third Age events and effects on differing areas of Middle Earth. For example, would the Dwarves of Khazad Dum have noticed what was happening in Arnor in the Angmar wars, the loss of Arthedain, and in turn the balrog awakening a mere five years after. Then, the sight of the dwarves fleeing having effect on the Elves of Lothlorien. What effect that had and so on.

[@frggdeckkkydexhhgg]

Middle-Earth was a shitty place during that time. Arthedain and Moria fell. Gondor and Lothlorien lost their kings. A lot of elves lost hope and sailed west. Lindon and Rivendell lost the manpower and haven’t fought a war ever since. Rhovanion was no more and the northmen were subject to genocide. Dol Guldur corruption spread across Mirkwood. Nobody expected 400 years of watchful peace. It was pure luck, that Sauron got scared away by Gandalf for 4 centuries.

[@paulemge9156]

Gondor probably should have tried to do a migration, offer something for people to move to Arnor to help bolster the area

[@user-yy5xs6xj7r]

It doesn't seem that there were enough population in Gondor to support such a migration. Gondor itself was relying on Northmen from the vales of Anduin to provide enough soldiers. Surely sending settlers into an area Gondor didn't control and can't recruit soldiers from wouldn't be a wise decision for a Gondorian king.

[@kurtuhlig2553]

The Dunedain were in serious decline at this point.

[@Limubi1]

By this point also there is so little communication, trust, and joined up thinking between the two kingdoms that this foreign policy decision probably just didn't even occur to the Stewards in Gondor. Earnur's expedition was the exception, not the rule at this point. That's part of the tragedy: Gondor and Arnor at one point were these mighty inheritors of the legacy of Numenor, but centuries of distance, mistrust and a lack of communication, exploited by Sauron, meant decisions like repopulation just did not seem possible or even apparent.

[@istari0]

The two kingdoms had been separated for almost 2000 years at this point and Gondor was also past its peak at this point. Gondor had enough enemies around it that spending the resources to try and reestablish Arnor as what would have basically been a colony of Gondor would have been a bad idea.

[@crabberdabberye]

short answer, because the plot needed it to happen

[@TheGreatUnwashedThing]

I think another point to make is that in addition to his experience of the First World War, Tolkien likely had a very early 20th century understanding of what happened after the Roman Empire collapsed in the West - which was that civilization effectively completely unravelled and knowledge declined resulting in the Dark Ages. We know now this is only even close to true in a few areas - mostly in the far north-west of the old empire and in the richer regions such as Iberia, southern France, and Italy, even where Roman elites did not maintain their power their new 'barbarian' overlords relied on the old Roman power structures to exercise authority. This only really changed with the Justinianic Plague in the mid-6th century and even then, north-western Europe was never as depopulated as Eriador is supposed to be. Of course even if Tolkien didn't have this understanding of the fall of the Roman Empire, I think he would still have had Eriador be a sparsely populated place both because it would make the story too confusing unncessarily and also because it allowed him to write about the kind of things he wanted to write about.

[@ladyalaina42]

Thank you! I am especially interested in learning everything about the Dunedine. How did their numbers decrease so much??

[@billychops1280]

Isn’t there like 50 rangers by the time of Aragorn? 50 warriors usually means there’s about 50-70 woman in the community with about 100-130 children (boys and girls) and like 30-35 elders. And I’m not just pulling these numbers out my ass. The method I’m using to determine the population of these people is the same one that our modern day historians use to attribute to barbarian populations that were migrating and fighting the Roman’s in history. This method tends to be accurate about 80% of the time. And it’s basically like this: the amount of warriors (let’s say 30K men) make up about 80% of the male population over 18 years old, the woman tend to be as numerous (so 30K) or slightly more woman than men is the rule (so most likely 40K adult woman) the children tend to be 50% of the migrating groups population, so 60-70K of them. And 20% of the total population is of the elderly so around 15-20K (these numbers can very depending on weather and circumstances) keep in mind the reason these people would migrate is because there were too many of them in their native lands to feed everyone so they had to leave. Ok this is a bunch of info dump but yeah

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

Probably not a bad guess. Unless the rangers are a much more specialized class of warriors than the typical able bodied man could handle. Maybe your numbers are their core clan while they work with and on behalf of a wider populace because the rangers do actively protect the Shire from the peripheries.

[@anti-liberalismo]

There were 30 rangers of the North that went to help Aragorn in the south, and they were not, by no means, the majority of the rangers, but only those that were near Rivendell to get the messages of Elrond and Galadriel. One thing to note is what actually happened during the Hunt for the Ring: The garrisons of the rangers at Sarn Ford and at the pass of Andrath were both completely destroyed by the Nazgul, that's why every enemy in Eriador entered Bree and the Shire! One other thing to note is the gear of the Rangers, they were a professional fighting force, the closest Eriador had to a standing army, they had a lot of weapons, horses and had chainmail armor for every warrior that came to Rohan. One other thing: the orcs of the misty mountains were diminished but their strength grew during the War of the Ring, wargs came to the west of the mountains around that time, most of the Dunedain would certainly be occupied holding off the forces of evil in Eastern eriador. One other factor: Tolkien explicitly states that most of the population of Fornost survived the fall of the City, since Arvedui had news of the attack before it came, he probably evacuated the civilians. And last, but not least: during the Fell Winter of 2912 the Rangers of the North had to feed the entire population of the Shire to prevent them from starving to death, there was no way for them to feed the whole Shire without they themselves starving. Conclusion: the population of the rangers was definitely not in the low hundreds or low thousands, I believe they were more like between 25 to 30 thousand, scattered all across Eriador, so they would never be able to muster a true army. The rangers of the North were but only a small portion of the population of the dunedain of Arnor, probably the last nobles and knights of the old kingdom instead of the majority of the population.

[@billychops1280]

@@anti-liberalismo very interesting and good to hear, but I can’t believe that the rangers numbered between 25-30 thousand, it’s extremely plausible that the entire population of the Dunedain/Arnorians is around 25-30K but there’s no way there’s 25-30K professional Fighting Rangers in the North. That would make them larger than the Gondorian standing army which I believe is between 20-25K in the latter days of the third age, though during this war specifically its probably around 16K And I’m not just pulling these numbers out of my ass, I’m relying on a vid by Darth Gandalf who researched the strength of Gondor during the war of the ring But anyway from what you’ve said I can definitely see the Rangers Numbering between 5-8K professional fighters (excluding males under 18 and men over 100-120 years old, if we were talking about regular men, like of Rohan the max age cap would be like 70-75)

[@billychops1280]

@@anti-liberalismo but also upon further inspection, it dawns on me that I forgot the longer life factor, so my initial numbers (even though they are wrong) are even more off by about 20-30% in each population category, since for example the elders of such a group would be like between 100-110 years old.

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@billychops1280 oh yes, certainly, I was referring to the whole of the people. Just so you could get an idea of how larger was the population of Gondor compared to Arthedain, when Gondor sent a mediocre force(between 20 to 30 thousand I should guess) to the North the dunedain of arnor were amazed at the size of it! Darth Gandalf's video about the Gondorian strength is extremely solid, but I still believe the numbers he brought fell a little bit short, Gondor would have around 1 million inhabitants at the war of the Ring probably, but upon the clues and evidences we got I believe Gondors forces would be like 30 to 35k instead of only 25 to 30k. As for the professional fighters of the rangers, even I believe thousands of them would be a lot 😂, I believe only a few hundred, or a thousand hardened fellows would fight while the rest would be farmers or craftsmen.

[@alanmike6883]

Darth what do the think would've been reasonable of the Population of Arnor From it's founding The split into three. And when arthedain was the last one Left?

[@anti-liberalismo]

Since he didn't see your comment, I will give my own take: The time of the war of the Last Alliance: probably 2 million Breakup: 1.5 million Fall of Fornost: between 60 to 100 thousand at the absolute most These estimates are based on the population of Numenor, which Tolkien actually gave us, and was 15 million people.

[@alanmike6883]

@@anti-liberalismo That sounds like a good reasonable estimation. Knew about numenor itself being over ten million And the faithful had been a minority and slowly emigrated to middle earth. Which begs another question about best guess at the population of Gondor at it's founding by islidur And anarion To it's days in the war of the ring 🤔 And a what if Gondor had fallen first instead of anor if arnor never had the breakup

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@alanmike6883 in my own estimates about Gondor, I believe it was a total of 4 million at the foundation, 12 million at the peak, which was the peak of the Eastern Roman Empire during the time of Basil II(the inspiration of Tolkien for Gondor), and around 1 to 1.2 million during the War of the Ring. If Gondor fell first before Arnor, the whole of Middle Earth would have been conquered by Easterlings, orcs and southern. Period. If Arnor never broke up they would obviously be stronger to resist Angmar, but their population would continue to decline without war, and with war there would be a hastening of their decline, and with the Great Plague, they would probably be overrun by Angmar anyway.

[@anti-liberalismo]

Worth mentioning that the dunedain of Arnor and Gondor were always a minority in both of their realms, but were numerous enough so that the whole military of Gondor at the War of the Last Alliance up until the Kin Strife was comprised mostly of Numenoreans with only a few lesser men.

[@alanmike6883]

@@anti-liberalismo Which hastened up the Decline in Gondor

[@carlcramer9269]

Maybe Sauron was satisfied, having ended the royal line of first Arnor and then later Gondor?

[@SB-qm5wg]

The Witch King of Angmar did have a very powerful once-a-day attack called overattack. Very powerful. Over powered by some standards.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

If your taking suggestions for things to talk about, perhaps a review of the poems found in the Tolkien Reader.

[@untitled568]

So basically Aranath created the rule of two..

[@anti-liberalismo]

That reference was so good it took my breath, just like Vader did to Padme

[@anti-liberalismo]

I was thinking here, Aranarth could not have the funds to rebuild the cities of Arnor, arthedain fell in 1974, and he became the chieftain in 1976, just imagine 2 years without taxes?! This was obviously not the case when Aragorn rebuilt Annuminas, as the population of the Dúnedain would have 1000 years to pay the chieftain

[@Funkopotomis]

What if we made Arnor great again? By which I mean every single one of my TATW campaigns

[@squamish4244]

I think this question is easily answered with: Arnor? What Arnor? J/k the Watchful Peace was a period when Arnor theoretically could have been repopulated, or at least parts of it. This is where the prophecies matter regarding the decisions of the Dunedain. If that window of time is lost, then the rest of the Third Age has increasing evil again in Eriador and worsening weather. Also, this is where "Demographics and economics were not Tolkien's strong suit" from Darth Gandalf's video on Eriador in general being so empty come into play and also, Tolkien's literary intent. He wanted to show how evil has become strong by the time of the War of the Ring, and one way to do that is by depicting the region of the former kingdom of Arnor as still a wilderness and the kingdom as still lost after a millennium. And he needed Aragorn to be a king without a kingdom. As evil is reflected by the natural world in Middle Earth in general, it further made sense to show the former lands of Arnor as still being a wild and empty landscape.

[@Paul_W_222]

There's a great amount of humble decency in keeping a humble title like "Chieftain of the Dunedain" rather than proclaiming yourself a king when you (or claim to rule) rule over a wasteland They were, quite simply, no longer kings... it wouldn't have been right to call themselves "King of Arnor" or "King of Arthedain" given the circumstances. In fact, taking on such a title would have been embarrassing and delegitimized Aragorn and his ancestors

[@00martoneniris86]

If dwarves are maked of stone by aule why when they die the only thing that is left is Bones?

[@anderaristondo1259]

And were did Aragorn find enough people to restore Arnor?

[@crabberdabberye]

Gondorians, Northmen. Honestly these questions are just explained by because the plot needs it to happen. Realistically Gondor could have just supported Arthedain and they’d have been back fine during the watchful peace, 400 years is plenty of time to get a substantial population back especially for Dunedain with extended life spans. But the plot needs Gondor to stand alone so that Arnor couldn’t have just solved the majority of the issues the Fellowship faces during war of the ring. Like if Arnor existed during the war of the ring the hobbits could have just safely gone to rivendell and Arnor probably would have just gone south and wiped out Isengard. But the plot needs there to be these complications so Arthedain/Arnor doesn’t exist.

[@anti-liberalismo]

The population of the Dunedain of the North, from all the clues Tolkien gives us, was around 25 to 30 thousand people, which would be enough to restore Annuminas and Fornost. We can be sure that no large scale effort of colonization would be done from Gondor, since Gondor itself was still very depopulated at the time, nor would it come from Rohan, since the Rohirrim colonized Enedwaith and the borders of Lorien instead.

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

Because the Dunedain had like fifteen guys left total. The End. *Roll Credits*

[@anti-liberalismo]

Nah, more like 60 thousand people

[@Byenie0912]

I have a theory that the elves advised and worked against the reforging of arnor. Maybe to the point that they massacred surviving refugees secretly and pass it off as Angmar ambushes. Hear me out: The might of Numenor was certainly still remembered by the elves. They saw how numenorians get easily corrupted and rebel against the Valar and the elves. Two examples were centuries of king’s men faction, Sauron sponsored sacrifices, and ar pharazon great fleet. Then there’s rhudaur who is neighbouring rivendell who just decided to be bad guys The elves had seen that Arnor’s location is dangerously close to Rivendell and Lindon. If Arnor became another unchecked superpower, then there’s high probability that the elves in the region would be in danger Gondor’s power is already held in check. Woodland realm and Lothlorien never supported Gondor against the incursion and invasions from the east and south. Then there’s the occasional plagues and mysterious disappearances of kings and princes. Elves could have easily honoured the alliances by sending troops early against Angmar or by helping rebuild the major cities to entice people to come back and repopulate. A few hundred years of guidance could have brought back arnor to former glory. Even allow eleven marriages to produce half elves to restore the house of elros. But alas that didn’t happen Only plausible theory is the elves didn’t want a numenorian superpower anymore.

[@istari0]

Elrond and Círdan would have never done or allowed such a thing, which would have been evil unlike anything the Elves had done since the Kinslayings of the 1st Age. They also both knew and remembered that the Elves still in Middle-Earth had been saved in the past by the Númenoreans as well as the later War of the Last Alliance with Gondor and Arnor.

[@Byenie0912]

@@istari0 They would have especially when all they know is Sauron is gone and the Witch King is also gone As far as they know, middle earth no longer have any threats save for the remnants of the witch king’s army Gondor is still there to act as shield from anything coming out of Mordor But Arnor is a danger to their region. Rhudaur rebelled and look at what happened. Imagine if the entire Eriador region is against you. Elves would be extinct before they even leave for Valinor

[@dubya85]

True they formed the CIA of the elves. Numenor shall never rise again.

[@istari0]

@@Byenie0912 1) The Elves very well knew that Sauron was still around and that the Witch King had escaped, not perished. 2) Rhudaur's inhabitants were mostly the Hillmen, who were related to the early Easterlings who had entered Beleriand and in particular to Ulfang, who betrayed the Free Peoples in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The Hillmen had been under the influence of Sauron since the late 2nd Age. Relatively few of the Dúnedain settled in this area, which made it quite vulnerable when the Witch King established Angmar. 3) There is no basis to extrapolate what happened in Rhudaur to the rest of Arnor. There were far more Dúnedain in the other areas of Arnor and they remained allies with the Elves until Arnor was completely wiped out and that alliance continued. 4) Most importantly, again, Elrond and Círdan would have never countenanced such a thing. They had been allied with the Dúnedain for a very long time. There is absolutely no evidence of the kind of corruption that brought Númenor down among the Dúnedain of the north.

[@anti-liberalismo]

Your theory have only one thing which actually may have happened: we know that no man or orc of angmar remained west of the misty mountains, and their lands were genocided, now, I strongly believed the elves took part in this genocide, specially because Rhudaur was just near Rivendell

[@00martoneniris86]

what if the expedition of balin had success

[@istari0]

There was no way they could have defeated Durin's Bane, who about 1000 years earlier had destroyed the entire kingdom.

[@aaronrowell6943]

Good to know it was more prophecy than population. Consider the elves ran city states despite their population issues and historically look at the Spaniards who survived the Muslim conquests and began the Reconquista

[@jerkohasnolastname-hb2hx]

Armor fell in 1974 because Tolkien had died the year before.

[@sakomanlee]

Why would they keep going? Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974 of the 3rd Age. It's a scientific fact.

[@LordTelperion]

Arnor wasn't rebuilt for one reason: catastrophic population collapse. It was a genocide, hardly any humans, let alone Dunedain, remained alive in the whole of Eriador after the fall of Fornost. No government, no administrators, no economy, no tradesmen, hardly any people left to even establish a small town, let alone a nation-state.

[@apstrike]

Your analysis of the prophecy is excellent but this has never worked for me. Societies at war don't have the civilian population die out but have their warriors survive. Yes, leadership can go off and start a guerilla movement that lives off the land, but they'd have to abandon all the common people.

[@Uncle_Fred]

Arnor's history simply has flaws that can't be resolved. It was probably an oversight in Tolkien's world building.

[@willemvanstaden3292]

But why not build like a single, quite secret, stronghold - akin to Imladris - and multiply and thrive there - still doing the ranger thing but from a place of strength instead of stupidity? Also - why EVER let your leader/chief/King go range and get himself killed? Sorry - these Dunedain seem idiotic to my logical reasoning. They could just as well have invited settlers from Gondor to come and populate Eriador as their vassals. Or they could have invited some men from Rhovanion as well - like the Beornings or men of Dale? Why just give up and rely on some vague prophecy? This seems nonsensical from a Biblical perspective. Like: if you want God's aid - first attempt to help yourself - and then be granted strength to do so. And here I thought Tolkien knew Scripture...

[@anti-liberalismo]

Imladris was nothing but a house. The Dunedain most probably had secret fortified places and refuges near the regions they guarded, such as the Shire and Bree, and most certainly in the Angle, but they could not grow their population while fighting constant wars for a thousand years!

[@anti-liberalismo]

They had the stronghold which you speak of, in the angle

[@janvijaysingh2692]

Isn't the content becoming repetitive? You've already covered this topic with as far as I remember 2 videos (it may be 1) before. I think you should try branching out to other fantasies and lores like Wheel of Time, Witcher and Harry Potter.

[@dubya85]

I think you are wrong on both counts

[@Uncle_Fred]

I think one of the issues with the Tolkien lore community is that they've exosted most of the straightforward lore explanations. Only questions that use novel comparison framing or the Christopher Tolkien books on the elder days stuff continue to feel fresh.