Middle-earth Mysteries - The Hillmen of Rhudaur

In this episode of Middle-earth Mysteries, we look at the possible origins for the Hillmen of Rhudaur; Men that betrayed Angmar, but did not long outlive it.
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[@DarthGandalfYT]

Sup everyone. I just want to correct a mistake in the video. I mistakenly call the the "Easterlings of Ulfang" the "Easterlings of Uldor". Uldor was the commander who betrayed the Elves during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, but Ulfang was the leader of the tribe(s). His fate at the time of the battle is unknown. And because I didn't mention it, I do want to point out that Rhudaur isn't entirely deserted at the end of the Third Age; Tolkien did leave behind a note that suggests that many of the Dunedain actually lived in the Angle, which would be in southern Rhudaur.

[@roguelionproductions3030]

Ah good to know! Also, I remember in one of the Old Battle for Middle Earth games that the men of Carn Dûm were referred to as Black Numinorians. I don’t know if that makes a difference in their origins but it was something I was curious about.

[@toringepedersen9614]

Ah, thank you. I was thinking, does he mean Ulfang. About the people of Bör, was'nt they consider destroyed their the battles in the 1st age?

[@bristleconepine4120]

What would you say to a suggestion that some of the Hill Men may have fled to other lands instead of being exterminated by the elves or Gondorans? We know there were Men of Angmar east of the Misty Mountains; could the Easterlings have taken them in? Could the Dunlendings have taken Rhudauran refugees?

[@MerryMohProductions]

@@roguelionproductions3030 Unfortunately it isn't said they were Black Numenoreans in the books. But plenty of people argue against the idea because they reside in Umbar mostly. Unless of course some of them somehow did manage to migrate all the way into Angmar while following the Witch King himself. That said it would... kinda make sense, because they are a fairly powerful race of men, and they practiced sorcery just like the Witch King himself who was also of Numenorean origin; plus they too have a feud with the Dunedain for their fealty to the elves and the ways of the Edain where as the Black Numenoreans were of The King's Men, the people who worshiped Melkor/Morgoth HOW exactly Black Numenoreans could've got to Angmar, particularly under the watch of Gondor and the Elves of Imladris is the question that makes us think twice about this scenario. Although I guess another factor could be dunedain that were corrupted by the Witch King, but that too has it's alibies I'm personally neutral about whether there were Black Numenoreans/Dark Dunedain in Angmar or not, but the stance other Tolkien enthusiasts have on the matter points to a node of disapproval

[@DarthGandalfYT]

@@bristleconepine4120 Ah, crap, I knew I forgot something when I was writing the pinned comment. Yes, it's possible that some of the Hillmen fled east given the fact that there were remnants of Angmar east of the Misty Mountains. And if the Hillmen were of Gwathuirim origin, then it's possible some might've fled south to Dunland.

[@anti-liberalismo]

The assimilation part of the hillmen as part of the North Kingdom could be traced to the line:"many turned from evil and became subjects of Isildur"

[@Funkopotomis]

"Less talking, more raiding!" ~Hillman Chief, probably

[@grimgrauman7650]

I will drink from your skull!😂

[@longfoot3055]

That's a nice head you have on your shoulders.

[@mariyontil]

Serious question: why does no one trust Bilbo as a narrator? Frodo explicitly states that it was out of character and unlike Bilbo to lie or alter his story from the true one in the chapter "The Long-Expected Party". Tolkien went at great lengths to make all the strangest things in the book fit into the lore (e.g., talking trolls, self-governed orcs etc.). All I have heard is that a talking purse is implausible, and we already have a talking sword and a talking dog in The Silmarillion, so… I don't see why a talking purse in a story actually published in Tolkien's lifetime is so incredible, and frankly, if Tolkien had changed his mind about it, he probably would have removed it. Did he remove it in the 1960 version?

[@Guriezous99]

As to what you mention in the end about the trolls eating a village, there's probably some people still living in Rhudaur and other areas in Eriador up to the end of the Third Age. But it's probably on the level of Bree, so pretty small self-sustaining communities totally irrelevant and isolated. Basically just a patch of tiny villages and farms every many milles.

[@dabestestgoblin8495]

Wouldn"t that kinda let to inbreeding? I am no demographics expert, but hasnt there be so many guys in some area in order to be populated for long.

[@Guriezous99]

@@dabestestgoblin8495 I mean, Bree is a thousand-odd inhabitants town and it's existed for milennia. Small-time trade and travelers make wonders, as it happened for most human communities IRL.

[@anti-liberalismo]

​@@dabestestgoblin8495it could, but probably didn't, it's just likely the people had few children

[@userequaltoNull]

​@@anti-liberalismo That wouldn't have done anything, inbreeding affects you whether you impregnate your 6th sister or your only sister.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

A village of Dunedain is possible. Trolls are made of tough stuff, and if it was at night it would not be too difficult to do. Also, Arador was killed by trolls in the Trollshalls. Why would trolls there bother him if people did not live there? Also we are told the Dunedain live in The Angle, and there were no manish settlements within a hundred leagues of the Shire, which is the Angle where the Dunedain live, but it don't say the Dunedain are the only people who live beyond a hundred leagues of the Shire, so it is possible that other people live in or around Rhundur where a troll could eat a whole village during the night.

[@istari0]

I like the idea that the Hillmen are descended from the Easterlings of Bor but I wonder how many of them survived in the aftermath of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad to escape into Eriador. Of course, that could explain why they ended up in Rhudaur; all the better lands were taken. Over time, their northern neighbors under the Witch King could simply have corrupted them and taken them over, reducing Rhudaur to a vassal state run by Hillmen corrupted to the service of the Witch King and through him to Sauron.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

It's possible that none of them survived. Those that could be found in Eriador might've simply been those who never crossed the mountains in the first place.

[@ellanenish5999]

Actually Men of Angmar are mentioned not once but thrice, as a distinctive cultural group, 1 - LotR, vision from the barrows, the famous Men of Carn Dum, 2 - chronicles of Arnor, in 1409 Witchking ressetled some of his Angmarim subjects into Rhudaur to spread his influence across Rhudaur, 3 - Angmarim living east of Gundabad were driven east by the Eotheod who searched for a calm place to settle in

[@user-yq6ct6mr1y]

Is there a reason for not thinking of Men of Carn Dum as being ethnically different from other gwaithurim (or even being some fallen\exiled dunedain)? I mean, if they are just angmarim, why does last prince doesn't calls them as such. We don't call men for their city, but for country, exept if the city is somehow is more special

[@ellanenish5999]

@@user-yq6ct6mr1y you are trying to fit your idea into BFME Rise of the Witchking, but they are not canon and made a lot of stuff up, no Black Númenoreans in Angmar, honestly that is a ridiculous idea and idk why even RotWK devs thought of this, lands of Angmar are settled by the people of the Angmarim which called as Men of Angmar when mentioned during the migration of Éotheod northwards, Carn Dûm is the capital so I do not see a reason why they couldn't be called by that name as well, also as these "Men of Carn Dûm" (as described in LotR) assualted and killed the Prince of Cardolan they might have been an elite of Angmarim warriors hailing from the capital of the Witch-Realm of Angmar - Carn Dûm, and because of them being elite troops they were matched against the bodyguard of the Prince of Cardolan

[@MerryMohProductions]

@@ellanenish5999 I'm skeptical of that creative license as well; that said I can see how it is possible how the Witch King could've brought Black Numenoreans with him from Mordor or Dol Guldur with the help of the Easterlings invading Rhovanion, and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains guiding them through secret passages. Mind you it's still a big jumping the gun, but in defense of BFME the inclusion of Black Numenoreans does... kinda make a twisted bit of sense, since they too are bitter enemies of the Dunedain who remained faithful to the Elves and the Valar where as they worshiped Sauron and Melkor. Plus they are a very powerful people who practice sorcery, and the Witch King himself is of Numenorean origin., so there is some poetry in having the Witch-King lead his own regime of Black Numenoreans to contest with the more faithful Dunedain of Arnor... OR at least corrupting some of the Dunedain up north during the civil conflicts to join him, counterintuitive that may be... Like I said I'm more neutral on this. It's up for other individuals to decide for themselves what sort of Men the Witch King led and just how exactly the war went down.

[@ellanenish5999]

@@MerryMohProductions at that point Mordor wasn't a state, I mean there could be some remnant Black Numenoreans commanding the leftover of the Orc tribes within Mordor but as they have an important position already I see absolutely no reason why would they end in Angmar, so Black Numenoreans in Angmar to me are an absolutely ridiculous idea

[@stephenchalmers71]

What are the Chronicles of Arnor? Never heard of them. If they aren’t in the Hobbit, LotR, the Silmarillion, or the Children of Hurin, they’re not canon. And if non-canonical writings aren’t in Unfinished Tales, the History of Middle-earth series, or Tolkien’s collected letters, they aren’t even valuable as an insight into Tolkien’s thought process.

[@scibanana3542]

"Who were the hillmen of Rhudaur? Doesn't matter, they're all dead."

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

Who is king bladorfin ?Dosent matter,he is dead!

[@LegiuneaAM]

How about the men of far harad? You would probably have a harder time with them than with Khand

[@popularmisconception1]

They could also be some mixture, a result of ethnogenesis. Or they could also be renegade Northmen/Woodmen who crossed the Misty Mountains due to a feud or evil lure or something in ancient times. Or they could be relatives of Beor/Hador whom the Dunedain are ashamed of so they don't count them as their own. Or they might be at least partially overgrown descendants of Hobbits, since we know Harfoots and Fallohides stayed in these areas during Wandering Days for about 3 centuries, although this version seems most unlikely. Last but not least, they could be at least partially, descendants of giants, as in giant men, because, if anywhere in Middle Earth at all, it is in the Ettenmoors, right between Trollshaws/Rhudaur and Angmar, where the giants lived.

[@3Kis4K]

Hey Darth Gandalf, appreciate your work on such obscure facets of Middle-Earth. Would you be interested in doing a vid on the Dunedain of the Angle, the allies of Rivendell? The group that Aragorn's family led. Was its core always a group of Rhudaur Dunedain remnants bolstered by the refugees from Arthedain after the fall of Angmar etc?

[@sawney_bean]

Show'em hillmen might!!!!!!!

[@bristleconepine4120]

Video suggestion (possibly for ME mysteries): the Gates of Morning! The GoM are described in the Book of Lost Tales, but mentioned **once** in the Akallabêth. What was JRRT doing including that again? What were his plans? What would a "modern" cosmology look like?

[@jonystyles9473]

I swear u have the best ME lore ... your doubts are our doubts, thanks for the mistery once again! Pls keep it up, cheers! :D

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

So we know the Forodwaith are close to Arnor and unless my geography is off they actually boarder Rhudar, so what if the Forodwaith at some point had a split between those that support Morgoth and Sauron and those that opposed them and the Forodwaith who opposed Sauron became the Lossoth and those Forodwaith that supported Sauron became the Hillmen of Rhudar, this could explain both why the Hillmen were willing to side with the Witch-king and their hostility towards the Númenóreans it would also answer what happened to the Forodwaith and why the Lossoth don't talk about what happened to the Forodwaith.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

Excellent thoughts and a lot of good logic, but you geography is off. Forodwaith boarders Angmar not Rhundaur.

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

@@Edward-nf4nc Thank you

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I did consider the Forodwaith as a potential candidate for the Men of Angmar rather than the Hillmen. But I think the two groups are far too different to have come from the same source. The Men of Angmar were evil, war-like, and embraced sorcery. On the other hand, the Lossoth were very primitive and aloof, and were afraid of weapons and sorcery.

[@ellanenish5999]

now waiting for the Angmarim episode kekW

[@maglor8157]

I like to imagine that some Dúnedain allied with the hillmen, and there was a class of Eru-worshiping evil Númenoreans, because that is just really cool to me

[@Sockenmodulator]

Tolkien possibly thought of the Hillmen as Scots. Then they would be more related to the Dunlendings.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

I should like to hope are some surviving descendants of the Hillmen in Bree or among the Dunlandings: turned from overt evil, but still suspicious of strangers and hostile to perceived threats to their territory.

[@cavetroll666]

Good video thanks 🙃

[@connerhicks9311]

So were the Hillmen of Rhudaur, Dunlendings while the Men of Angmar, Easterlings?

[@anti-liberalismo]

I would definitely believe the troll instead of Aragorn, because Aragorn himself said the trollshaws and the lands to the north were little known to him

[@WhoIsCalli]

Good vid

[@PeculiarNotions]

All pretty interesting theories.

[@alanmike6883]

I like DACs kinda take on these men being a mix merging hybrid of North men And wild men

[@illirei]

8:35 a reference to the Epic Deverry series? A true rarity

[@rockethockett6227]

Could it not be that the hillman of Rhudaur are in fact descendants of the ancient Forodwaith who migrated south? It would explain the unknown origin, and the not quite fully evilness as we don't know what the forodwaith did in relation to the factions of the first age.

[@kazikmajster5650]

*I'm a Hillman!*

[@ryancarter1080]

After the last alliance gondor built a number of fortresses to keep an eye on the land of mordor Durthang, the towers of the teeth, cirith ungol, but all of them were to prevent anything moving west into mordor or east into gondor. Why wasn't there fortresses that kept an eye on Mount doom and Barad Dur? Its not like the before mentioned fortresses had a good view on the places. The people in Minas Tirith couldn't see Minas Morgul, let alone be able to spot people/orcs etc living there and the distance between the two cities is much less than the distance between the fortresses and mount doom let alone Barad Dur, there could have been thousands of sauron followers there and unless they were shotting off fireworks I doubt the garrisons would notice. And it would have been easy for followers to occupy these sites, the mountains surrounding Mordor have a large gap in the east. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a group of easterling worshippers at some point before the watch of mordor ended made their way to Mount Doom and Barad Dur and made shrines/temples to sauron/melkor. So, I will repeat why wasn't there a fortress nearer to those places.

[@istari0]

Barad-dûr was destroyed after the War of the Last Alliance except for its foundations. The fortresses Gondor built looked into Mordor to stop attempts by any servants of evil to re-establish themselves there so there was no particular need for one just to watch Orodruin. It was really only of particular use to Sauron and he was no longer around.

[@Wolfogre]

For some reason I always assumed they were some relict population of the original humans of the region. Kind of like how R.E.Howard described the Picts in his Bran Mak Morn-stories. Maybe some cultural overlap with the Dunlendings but essentially a separate ethnic group in decline.

[@maglor8157]

It’s sad when you have a people that is in the story a lot, but we know more about the lossoth’s ancestors that theirs.

[@ahmeteminerdogan9266]

Can you do narrated videos for some good MERP stories for the unexplored regions of Middle Earth? There is no one on YT doing that, so that would be a first.

[@Paul_W_222]

Mistreated hill people who try to get revenge by siding with the dark forces seems to be a recurring theme in Tolkien's work

[@Carlb328]

I'm pretty sure the men of Angmar were the Hillmen and others who came there or were brought there to serve the Witch King, I don't think anyone lived there before that.

[@onur97able]

That explains why hwaldar never appears in the fornost or epilouge

[@Strength-Honor-Courage]

Does anyone know what the flag banner of Rhudaur looked like?

[@nedmanus4761]

Middle earth mysteries idea: What happened to Amandil?

[@MerryMohProductions]

I already said my piece, stated my theory that the hillmen of rhudaur were middlemen or northmen, or some other race of men who are of the same house of the numenoreans and their ancestors, but as for the the men of Angmar itself, I could see them being a similar stock if not descendants of first age easterlings; or perhaps even a defected population of the Dunedain who fled north to avoid the civil conflict that sparked in Arnor, and the Witch-King coaxed them to fight for him for some false promises of restoring the dunedain or whatever, teaching them the ways of Ar-Pharazon and convincing them to convert to the Kings Men. they'd be the closest thing to a northern sect of Black Numenoreans since the actual entities reside in Umbar (unless they decided to sale a few ships to the coast of the Enedwaith and they hoof it from there on)

[@MerryMohProductions]

Maybe they were Northmen or Middlemen? though personally if I were Tolkien I'dve just made them corrupted Dunedain

[@mingthan7028]

You mean barbaric Wildling?

[@MrChristophSteininge]

There are some hints to be had from modern ethnography. The process of ethnogenesis underwent some changes in the understanding of these processes. During Tolkiens lifetime there was the assumption that peoples solely defined themselves by descendance. And that is how Tolkien depicts this process in the Silmarillion and subsequent works. This is no longer the state of the art of ethnology in modern times. Since the works of the author is, in this case, the final word, it is complicated to apply new approaches to these problems. Tolkien took the easy way out, he did not explain it at all. He left it undefined. Furthermore he was not an ethnologist, he was creating myth. And if something in this myth did not fit his ideas about how peoples came to be, he left it undefined, because there was no way he could have done so, even if he had ideas about ethnology! For the sake of understandig his works, the hillmen of Rhudaur just were there, and they did what they did.

[@michaelodonnell824]

There's a weakness in this narration that the narrator doesn't even realise is a weakness. He assumes that the Dunedain had a right to rule Arnor. But who were the Dunedain? Essentially, they were Numenorean refugees who INVADED the land of Arnor and assumed that they, and they alone, had a Right to rule, despite the fact that there were many other peoples living the land, long before the Dunedain were forced to flee Numenor. Imagine you are living where your ancestors have lived for millennia. Suddenly, there appears among you an invading force that has little respect for your culture or your history and, claiming to be a "Master Race", demands the right to rule over you. Any group so treated would naturally harbour enmity towards the invaders and their arrogant decendants. When one remembers that the Dunedain were invaders, any and all hostility towards them is incredibly understandable... But British people like Tolkien and the narrator believe "Master Races", British or Dunedain, have a Right to slaughter and dominate "Lesser" races...

[@holypaladin4657]

The narrator acknowledges the Hill Men could have had any number of legitimate grievances against the Arnorians whatever their heritage. Also the idea that Tolkien believed what you say is kind of ridiculous when you read how he portrays the Haradrim. It is due to the Numenorean and Dunedain’s colonising ways that the Haradrim are driven to the service of Sauron. So in the end the baddy humans are portrayed as bold doughty warriors, and at least in the case of the Haradrim have ancient grudges against the Dunedain due to no fault of anyone except the Dunedain themselves.