Why do Ex-Mormons Appear So Angry? John Larsen/Carah Burrell @JohnLarsen1 @nuancehoe | Ep. 1660

[@Mr2blue2]

A really kind and gentle man worked for me years ago. One day he seemed troubled and down. I ask him what was bothering him. He said in a couple days he was going to have to choose between paying his tithe to the Mormon church or buying prescription medication for one of his 5 boys. He felt like no mater what he did he would feel like a failure. This was the start and in a way a conclusion to my re-search into Mormonism.

[@tawneenielsen4080]

This part is sad. It shouldn't even be a thought about medication

[@hbendzulla8213]

@@tawneenielsen4080 or food, or even a vacation trip or whatever.

[@leem3299]

Well said. Thank you for sharing

[@Kawiboy]

👊 👍😉

[@jonbaker476]

People are so indoctrinated that they forget that giving the church money is voluntary, not an actual demand. But the church tells you it's a demand and a part of your covenants, so.... They're just a bunch of snake oil salesmen

[@SloanTSmart]

I was cheated on by my first wife after 10 months of marriage, and I thought that was betrayal. But finding out the beliefs and church you were taught your whole life is a lie, but not only that, that leaders and teachers you loved and trusted actively lied to you to keep you in for 37, that is the betrayal I am now living with. That is why my in-laws and parents call me "angry."

[@Mr2blue2]

Well said.

[@mstringham]

My wife doesn’t agree, but I said when our kids get married, we are not inviting the LDS people that are active. When they get butt hurt will just say that we didn’t get to go to the temple marriages. Also, I’d like to say to them that we didn’t want the negativity present at the wedding of this not being a temple marriage.

[@123layci]

Thank you Cara for expressing my feelings exactly ! I live alone in some sweet inactive friends basement struggling to make ends meet and keep my head above water. I have seven children and seven grandchildren, parents, sisters .. yet I have seen only my cats for a few years. I will be processing and working through multiple traumas through narcissistic abuse, SA, and CPTSD for the rest of my days, I cannot seem to connect on a deep level with any single man my age. I am essentially starting over at 54 .. with absolutely no resources but what I have gained internally .. .. The shelf breaker ? A bishop, stake president, and father who did not believe when I cried out for help with a life of daily physical and emotional abuse from the gross 🤢 hands of my second husband .. I was afraid for my life .. but turned away .. and told to go home .. support the priesthood, and love my husband.. hell, I even got shunned and scorned by the marriage counselors who seemed to have a damn crush on my evil husband.

[@mylittlebug14]

Oh that is horrible. Please be patient with yourself. I truly hope you can get the support you really need for you and your children. Hang on. ❤️❤️❤️

[@troysnuffles]

That is so heartbreaking. You should be proud of yourself for escaping the abuse. It will get better and you still have a long life ahead of you, and you will be there to be supportive of your children and grandchildren when their eyes are finally open - the tide is turning with the next generation.

[@mommaria69]

They did that to me with my father… same .. he’s the father he can do what he chooses… he’s the man with the priesthood! 😢

[@dadsarepeopletoo3785]

I'm so very sorry...😢

[@liz3564]

I am so sorry that you have had to go through that. Were you able to get some therapy from someone qualified? Your ex sounds evil and belongs in jail.

[@pjmackall]

Anger is actually a good emotion. It signals to us that something is wrong that we need to look at. A lot of Ex Mormons are angry because the church is so obviously false and they are upset about it. You don’t want to be stuck there your whole life, but being angry at times is ok and valid.

[@michealfrances]

I'm a psychotherapist and I absolutely agree and ratify and affirm everything you say above

[@jonbaker476]

with something like this, I'd say it's okay to be angry for a year or year and a half. No more than three though

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@@jonbaker476 A lifetime of abuse is worth more than a year of anger.

[@townsendv58]

I left years ago. I quite agree that people need to be angry. Therapy is a good, providing you get the right therapist.

[@jamesjeans7019]

Believing the church is "so obviously false" is probably unhealthy for the system and probably philosophically unsound. People are not deserving of anger because they don't believe the same as me.

[@kimmychan1967]

“Anger is when your heart says, I’m passionate, but powerless”.

[@lauriehansen6404]

When I left the church my Mormon sister and brother gave me so much love and grace. I was surprised, thinking they would be very angry. Their love for me transcended my leaving the church. I was equally respectful of their beliefs going forward. It could have gone so badly.

[@bigbrother1986]

The anger and resentment I have had for the church has took me to depths of my soul ... I am lucky to be alive

[@ghosty22xx]

me too. glad we’re both still here. stay strong

[@albertafarmer8638]

Mormonism is an awful cult, the deny the deity of our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST! Listen to real evangelists like Dr. John Ankerberg!

[@sabatamapetla]

My faith crisis is really getting a toll on me, I joined the church back in 2001 in South Africa, served a mission between 2003-05 in Kenya Nairobi, served in branch presidencies, bishoprics, was elders quorum in many instances, Sunday school president many many times, institute teacher, married in the temple about 11 years ago, ordained a high priest in 2018 and have lived a very Mormon life, have 3 beautiful kids. My wife on the other hand is still a believer and finds it difficult that I'm feeling all these emotions at the same time. Its anger this morning, bitterness the next, frustration the day after and hate the other day. It's difficult and I think I need to see a professional therapy to help out... People who join the church outside the US, especially those in Africa like myself and/or South America are always at a disadvantage, without the internet our experience with church information is literally church material that is packaged to perpetuate these mad truth claims and general conferences where this absolute perfection is perpetuated. But honestly though, I've always thought something was not totally right about the church , I couldn't put a finger on it, it was pure intuition "the spirit" I guess, but the truth claims, authority structure, and this out right perfectionism was a problem and discomfort to me.... And then in 2018 I came across the infamous GOSPEL TOPICS ESSAYS, then it was GRANT PALMER, SIMON SOUTHERTON, DAN VOGEL, NEMO, MORMON STORIES PODCAST, and all of a sudden an avalanche of disbelieve happen on me, both spiritual and emotional commotion almost drove me insane. "My Bishop and State President" could never have helped when they have never read the gospel topics essays...uuhh mean come on!!!! My other disappointment was the the BBC interview that Elder Holland did many years ago with John Sweeney, as a qualified Mormon defender and returned missionary I would have done an exceptional job in putting the reporter in his little corner, but Holland's attitude was all over and once he became emotional i knew we had a problem here, Holland failed to even share one stupid scripture to convince Sweeney and yah that was a bit of a DoDo moment there for him. So here i am, tired, confused, angry, alone most of the times... The road to spirituality is often travelled alone, the only true companion is our maker... so my journey begins

[@acetrades1524]

I hear you, and see you. You are not alone, and have a group of people who have been through the same thing. Hang in there!

[@carrielynn6993]

It blows my mind that anybody joins that religion as an adult. My mom joined as a teenager and I was born into it. They just don’t tell you everything. That’s the problem.

[@kimmychan1967]

It’s so hard, especially when you don’t have support or someone to talk it out with in real life. My husband is still a believer too even though he stopped going to church when i did in 2020. He won’t talk about it with me.

[@jonbaker476]

If it makes you feel better I absolutely love your Mr. Bean profile

[@albertafarmer8638]

Mormonism is an awful cult, the deny the deity of our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST! Listen to real evangelists like Dr. John Ankerberg!

[@gregrichens5536]

This episode really resonated with me. Carah's tears unleashed my own as I identified with her, and both John and John.

[@carrielynn6993]

Me as well! She speaks to me.

[@82566]

Me too I just wanted to give her a hug

[@johnb5254]

I like what Larson says about not being able to engage with someone, especially a family member who does not respect you as an equal, who is taught that you are less than because you believe differently. You can't rationalize with someone like this.

[@nsasupporter7557]

“Why do ExMormons appear so angry?” That’s one of the most ignorant questions I’ve ever heard! Because Something we were born and raised in we learned was a lie! Who in the right mind wouldn’t be angry about that???

[@jenniferheil6549]

👍

[@pamelaleannefreeland9025]

A never Mormon here. I can’t thank you guys enough for all that you’re doing. It touches more lives than you know. And specifically, thank you to JL for what he so powerfully said about hope. I was crying with him. I needed to hear that. I know I’m not the only one. I’m sorry that you all have experienced the pain and trauma you have, but I am so grateful that you’re sharing your experiences and insights with us. You are a pretty special trio. 💜

[@msali3180]

I love John Larsen. Thank you for caring about those of us that find little relief from the pain of the loss of loved ones, who will never accept us. When I hear John’s moments of vulnerability, I feel I can go on…….thank you John.❤

[@ohjonash]

Never Mormon here again. I really appreciated you guys talking about never-Mormons who watch the content but can relate to it still. I was brought up Catholic and encountered a lot of religious trauma not just because of Catholicism but because of the very Christian-forward community I was raised in. I loved this podcast; I think it was so emotional and genuine and equally tempered with both compassion and logic. Such great content on this channel. Thank you so much for all that you do!

[@dadsarepeopletoo3785]

Nevermo here as well. I'm hooked on this podcast as well bc I believe it applies to most religions. Including Christian fundies

[@croneunderthedome5605]

An ex-Southern Baptist here. Everything...so true...and so validating. Thank you John and Carah, and John D.

[@trevorper]

Wow. I gotta say… this was one of my favorite episodes ever. Thank you all for you genuine expression of what it actually feels like to go through a faith crisis. So very well put

[@mormonstories]

Love you Trevor!

[@zacheryeckard3051]

Why do a bunch of people who have realized they were lied to and manipulated for *years* (often since birth) seem jaded and upset at the time, money, and growth stolen from them? Big Think Energy.

[@Cel_566]

Regarding anger (30.30) I find both Johns anger expressions to be very cathartic, as a Mormon woman who has been keeping sweet my whole life, with no voice of my own

[@nicoleharalson4929]

It is so painful. I'm pimo. I can't show my family and friends the true me. Sometimes I try and it doesn't go well. So I can't imagine leaving. But it makes my insides churn. I would call it rage sometimes, not even anger. I wish I was brave enough to leave but there would be so many consequences and I don't know how to handle them. My parents would love me but it would break their hearts and they've been through a lot. I don't know how to do that to them. But I feel like there is duct tape over my mouth. So I have to binge these podcasts to keep from going crazy. I know it's not sustainable I just feel stuck. My dad was always so proud of me because I was the best Mormon kid ever. I don't care about my in laws feelings but I'm already at the bottom of the totem pole I'm pretty sure they would think I was scum. My mother in law told me that my most important job was to teach my two year old the gospel. I don't know what to do. I just don't know what to do. Sorry for my rant.

[@mommyofkittens4809]

It’s okay to do what’s best for you. It’s criminal how as women we are conditioned to give and think of others at the cost of ourselves. Yet we are expected not to receive in return l.

[@lebethany53]

I winced when I read your comment, because it is so similar to mine. I officially left the church about two years ago, and I am happier than I knew possible. But, I was PIMO for about 10 years… And when I announced to my parents that I was leaving two years ago, it was completely unplanned and unscripted. It just got to a point where I was literally going insane, living a double life. Dressing differently, acting and talking differently around by family members. It was grueling, emotionally taxing. The reason why I stayed in as long as I did was because I was terrified at the thought of disappointing my parents. To think that I would be the reason for their tears, their worry and struggle, their constant prayers for me to bring me back, it was all too much to handle, so I stayed in. As Mormons, we are unofficially taught to give our power away to anyone who will have it. We read the Scriptures, we follow the prophet, we don’t think for ourselves, because the thinking has already been done for us. We are constantly bombarded with reasons why we are unworthy. Unworthy to take the sacrament, unworthy to go on a mission, unworthy to get married in the temple, and I could go on. What I have discovered in my years since leaving is that I am worthy of everything. I am worthy of happiness and living my truth. I am worthy of receiving respect from those around me. I am worthy of being accepted for who I am and what I believe now. I am worthy of Being listened to. I truly know how hard and scary it can be to finally remove that shell and step into the light, but I cannot describe to you how happy I am. I didn’t know I could feel this free. I didn’t realize that I was shackled to my pain and fear as a church member. This doesn’t mean that your future is without fear and panic, but I will say that those emotions are worth feeling so that you can finally get to the other side. Yes, your family is going to be disappointed. There is no sugarcoating that. Some relationships will be tumultuous, there is no sugarcoating that. But, you owe it to yourself to shine in every direction, not just the minuscule direction that the church will allow. There is happiness, healing, strength, and unbridled joy on the other side of living the bondage of the church. I wish you so much luck! Sending you love.

[@mtsaz7995]

No your most important job is to be emotionally and physically healthy so you can be there for your. 2 yr old and teach him how to be a healthy productive member of society. But you can't do that if you are not the same.

[@eva6750]

Just came across this comment thread. Would love to know how you’re going with this, one year later, if you see this and feel comfortable sharing. ❤

[@calebcarpenter421]

I think this has been my favorite episode. For me, it was never about the details of _how_ the church is wrong. It’s about the fact that it is wrong and _everyone I trusted most_ from the moment I was born told me it was right. They lied to me, over and over and over, about everything that mattered the most.

[@Mr2blue2]

When you find out what you thought was the best thing in life turned out to be the most treacherous. How could you not be intensely angry? You wouldn't be a real person if that was the case.

[@thisisalwaysatest]

Caleb, I understand your pain. ExMo here. I think it's important to recognize, though, how many of these people you trusted knew they were teaching you something wrong? If they did, that's definitely one thing. My experience has been that none of them in my life knew any better and had no clue. it was that understanding that helped me forgive and just focus on our one-on-one relationships.

[@jonbaker476]

For me it's the lack of consent in Mormonism rather than it being true or false. I went on a mission and had no idea what it would be like since no one would tell me what would happen. Just pure propaganda. No one prepared me for how to deal with certain issues such as sexual assault, etc. Same with the temple. No one actually educated me on what would happen and instead just thrust me into a scenario in which I had an immense amount of social pressure on me to comply in the moment. It's messed up. I mean, it's fine to be Mormon as long as it's consensual but it isn't. Almost all they do is take advantage of your youth and inexperience to thrust a bunch of pressure and mind-control tactics on you

[@thisisalwaysatest]

@@jonbaker476 totally agree. Well said. Starts super young with our “choice” to get baptized. Sure, you’re told if you want to live with your family forever you’ll have to do it - “but it’s your choice!” Not much of a choice. Coercion as you say. Where I go a bit deeper is that I think the coercion is so prevalent and ingrained that we don’t even see it and when we do we categorize it as something different than “coercion” and the manipulation it is. A few years after I left Mormonism I revisited everything I once believed and eventually became Christian. Yes, there are cultural problems as with any group, but there is zero coercion in all my experiences in mainstream Christianity. It’s your choice and nothing is hidden. No “hidden knowledge” held out as a carrot, etc. It’s all out there in the open. Many won’t believe that - and I get that the burn from Mormonism is real and lasting - but this has been my experience. It’s one on one with you and God and no one else in between. As it should be. Anyway - good post man.

[@Mr2blue2]

@@jonbaker476 In a word - Manipulation.

[@patricianoel7782]

I have found the BEST therapist. I’ve began pulling away since last October.. almost a year now. 😮I was/ am in pain. It’s not so much as anger but resentment, fear, disappointment, frustration, sorrow, defeat,.Sincerely.

[@swigwerks]

You give words to the grief my family have suffered on both sides. Amazing example of unconditional compassion in the generous and understanding tone you all set.

[@Bones469]

Wow! This was a rough one. Out 7 years now trying to avoid the anger and hate. As a slightly right leaning libertarian, I had all but left MS behind, especially my once hero JL being so bombastic... But this.... Wow it apparently ripped open some wounds, reminding me of issues that still exist.... as I lie here in bed at 2 in the morning, next to my active, somewhat believing spouse, sobbing, trying not to wake her up. Damn what a mess, I realize even coming up on a decade I still carry this baggage... Signed Mr. Sh!tbag...

[@green97probe]

All you can do is hope that she starts to question the church and see that it's a big lie. I'm in the same situation. I've been out six years, and my wife is a lifelong member, so I understand how you feel.

[@sallyostling]

I am part of the 50% nevermo. I listen and watch Mormon Stories for the context in understanding trauma and other mental health issues. It's helpful for me. I'm a cognitive therapy kind of person and understanding the "why" is what helps me the most. I get a lot that I can apply to my own experience.

[@sallyostling]

@@China-Clay thank you! I learn so much!

[@sallyostling]

@@lynhansen3204 no one forced you here. And 50% of viewership is nevermo. There's a lot to learn about a lot of subjects. And a safe place. If it offends you, that's you. Love and let live.

[@koriel-in-real-life]

CARAH AND JOHN!!! Didn't know this was coming, was a happy surprise here the morning after it streamed.

[@function0077]

When I left Mormonism, I lost almost everything (wife, children, etc.), except my integrity. If I could do it again, I would do it differently, but I would still leave Mormonism, because I like looking the man in the mirror in the eye.

[@troysnuffles]

Congratulations! You will be a safe person for your children to come to when their eyes are finally open. Let them know that. The tide is turning for the next generation.

[@nightowl8548]

How is a religion not a cult if you are trapped and can't leave (even though you no longer believe) because it will destroy some part or many parts of your life?!

[@zacheryeckard3051]

It's a cult for many, many reasons...

[@samm8500]

After hearing this I felt so much compassion for ex mormons, and for mormons who aren't able to be ex mormons due to life circumstances.

[@thoughtsbeforesleep]

John Larsen made me wish I was a BYU professor just so I could quit!

[@62Loralee]

Yep. I was depressed and angry and sick very very sick and then i came out to my husband and actually left. I am 100 percent better now. I am joyful everyday. My husband is actually supporting my decisions.

[@kathrynclass2915]

My husband left the church before he dropped his belief in his and the church. He left because when was tired of feeling sexual shame and didn’t want that for our family. I was the one struggling with my belief because logically things about values and history weren’t adding up. I didn’t react very well. I questioned his character (he had been lying about pen and masturbation so there was that in my mind at the time, now I know that’s a shame-based behavior and it’s the church bears a lot of responsibility for that). I believed Satan had gotten ahold of him, not in a possessing him sense, but had led his thoughts away and he had run with that because he no longer could see truth. We, thankfully, stuck it out and through lots of talking and therapy and really hard intense conversations worked it out, but it took YEARS and I know not everyone is as lucky as we were to have that outcome. I stayed for a several years more but now am semi-active… as in I attend virtual sacrament meeting and the occasional virtual RS meeting but it only serves to solidify my disbelief.

[@Maryfs1]

I am dying of something worse than death. Betrayal. My family betrayed me.

[@kerstinklenovsky239]

Anyone who has managed to break free from a restrictive group that claims to have a monopoly on truth has the right to be angry and to feel that they have been cheated out of freedom.of choice.

[@lynnj9721]

Who needs a mom to tell them I am proud of you? I am a mom and I am proud of you! What you are doing is hard, and I am proud of you for doing it! Good job kiddo. Keep going!

[@nextgenmormon1045]

And if you need a Dad I am here. Tough stuff. It’s ok. Be a good human. Your goodness and moral compass was always with you. Keep learning and loving.

[@tjmax711]

This has been one of my favorite MS podcasts ever!!! So excited to hear the three of you will be back together again soon 🎉

[@paulan7218]

Most people would be angry when they realize they were members of a cult

[@zahadriondudynsky6658]

Cara's analysis of the mental gymnastics of blame-shifting is EXACTLY why I went into "hyper perfectionism" while also investigating the truth. (At the same time, I refused to take the familial abuse quietly, I have a temper worthy of a true devil.) But because my parents were demonstratively abusive to the point I could tell it was wrong, I saw them as the hypocrites and liars, not the church itself. I was waiting until I got to a point of confidence that I would be taken as credible when I finally did report them. But along the way, I found the same abuses to be systemic, and in several cases much worse which were then covered up and enabled. So I ended up taking my entire mental baggage with me in silence as I left. The systemic judging and gossiping definitely had me somewhat gaslit into a kind of silence about my troubles. Part of the reason I left is because at points, my parents would also threaten me with the Bishop's office. This told me that the Bishop was inclined to back them up and implied that my parents were confident in him as such. That dissolved any ideas I had of trusting him with anything. Instead I took it to my not-so-Mormon friends and they played a key part in balancing my perspective enough to get out of the mindfuckery that was going on. By the time I was in college, I knew I wanted to make my way out before I got involved with a family or marriage of my own....on my own terms.

[@kathydevries6513]

I have somewhat of a unique perspective having grown up as a never Mormon in a small Utah town. There were maybe 1/2 dozen Catholic (mostly Hispanic kids). And then me. I saw the dark side of Mormonism from a very young age. Parents who wouldn’t let their kids be friends with me, teachers who purposefully gave me a lower grade, thinking there was something wrong with me because of the way grownups treated me-let alone the other kids. It is refreshing to see the ugliness finally exposed to those enmeshed in its clutches. It just makes me sad that ex-believers seem to think the Mormon god is the only god and they don’t consider maybe there is another way that is true. Mormonism is a counterfeit but what is a counterfeit of?

[@mormonstories]

😢❤️

[@marleymae6746]

Ex Mormon here. I found the God of the Bible. The Mormon God isn’t even close enough to even be a counterfeit.

[@kathydevries6513]

@@marleymae6746 ❤️❤️❤️

[@reggieredmond2432]

I’m a follower of Jesus Christ that attended a “ biblical based Evangelical Free Church in Wisconsin “ for years . Our church had almost 5000 attendees every Sunday and more during the holiday seasons. As a black man married to a white women and 3 kids who attended the church K-7 grade school. I started to notice that something didn’t seem right. What I was hearing from the pulpit and the conversations among believers was not sounding like the words of the old or New Testament. And when trump became President the new evangelical Christians showed there weren’t followers of Jesus at all. More and more black congregants started leaving . Non of us who had been members for years were never contacted about why we left. I pulled my 3 kids out of the church school which we paid $ 2000.00 a month. And or giving was pretty significant. The navy blazers, white shirts, red,blue and white ties ( conservative look every white guy seemed to embrace) khaki slacks,khaki Dockers and Penny loafer’s became to me and my family replaced the hood and rope in Madison Wisconsin. Where still faithful Christian and obedient to Christ but we have very few if any contact with our community of believers. We were shown the preview of Charlottesville. And we are ok . Even after the words “ NO NIGGERS WANTED HERE “ was written in front of our beautiful brand new home. Also vandalized one weekend white we were camping. My wife and I are better together then it’s ever been . The greatest gift is we’ve been able to live our authentic selves around our non Christian friends and family. I love Mormon stories.

[@michaelkeith5398]

Love these episodes. Hit on so many great themes tonight! Thank you so much for all that you do!!

[@rachelhansen2417]

I feel like my story of why I left is a bit different. It started because of inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon, it grew to feeling concern for the LGBT community, and ended when I paid my last amount in tithing, followed immediately by being told the next day that I would not get money that I earned in the amount of $100 more than I had paid. It proved to me that every other faith story of tithing is just a coincidence, along with every other miracle I’ve ever heard about. It broke the last strand of hope that maybe it would one day make sense. I had been praying and doing everything as an “experiment upon the word”, and my results did not hold up to the promised outcome. (Can you tell I studied in a scientific field in college?)

[@rooheath]

This is such an important episode and I just wanted to thank you all for the work you are doing and for putting your heads above the parapet and making it easier for the rest of us to get through this x

[@brisingr4153]

“Passive shunning” excellent phrase!

[@vegadog3053]

There is a line dividing those who are angry or justly indignant and those who are bitter and consumed with resentment.

[@chispitablanca]

I haven’t been to church in 20 years and I think the hardest part is knowing that my relationship with my faithful mother is always going to be surface level. I can’t have real, meaningful conversations with her and I can’t tell her my complicated thoughts and feelings. It’s like taking the conversation you have with a barista at your regular coffee shop and pasting it onto your parent. Also, I really appreciate the discussion of how harmful alcohol can be. When you don’t grow up with any modeling of responsible consumption and add religious trauma to the recklessness of youth, things can get pretty ugly.

[@nicoleabate2162]

Poo

[@trudyburgoyne808]

Great episode. I love John Larsen’s insight and passion. Telling it like it is with no sugar coating

[@operaticsoul]

I had empathy for family and friends reacting to my leaving for several years before I spoke out. I endured years of hearing how sad my family was and being excluded from events... Empathy was not reciprocal until I posted on social media.

[@lauraburdett8932]

No.No.No. Baptism for the dead fixes the outer darkness problem. My sister expressed multiple times her disbelief in the church. Sadly, she struggled with mental health issues and took her own life. My sister was barely gone and my parents could not get to the temple fast enough to perform her baptism. I love my folks but I am so angry that they would do this. Completely disregard what my sister wanted and her beliefs and do that ceremony. WTH! I Don't believe in the dead baptism bit but, damn. And they wonder why she never confided in them.

[@ryanhollist3950]

I know this may come off as an extreme metaphor, but it's the best I've been able to come up with. The emotions I feel when dealing with people defending the LDS church, saying I shouldn't be "angry," what about their pain, etc.; it's like having to listen to someone defend my rapist. ETA: I'm not saying I was raped, I'm just using it as the metaphor.

[@jaredmitchell1302]

Shrooms don't necessarily have answers but they grant healing to the brains neropathways and gives understanding and context to your life.

[@trenyarae]

Moral outrage is born of LOVE!

[@MsCaterific]

OMGeee that is spot on!

[@mommatembo]

I’ve noticed in my own personal experience of leaving the church that the more I processed and healed the trauma and confusion from my Mormon upbringing the labels I assumed in regards to my “status” changed over time. Three years after my departure from the church I’ve just recently moved into a “post-Mormon” phase where I feel neutral in relation to my experience and relationship with the church. I can interact with active members with both compassion for their perspective and assurance about my experiences and decisions.

[@ohtobeasuriel]

I appreciate this episode. I've been out just about a year now and I've only gotten to the angry phase about 3-4 months ago so this was nice lol

[@dygz]

I'm hoping to hear, later in this episode, about this pain Mormons supposedly feel when other people leave the church. Sounds to me like the parents who beat their kids and proclaim, "Why do you make me do this? This hurts me more than it hurts you."

[@jonbaker476]

This is a great analogy tbh

[@davethebrahman9870]

When I left Christianity I had some anger for a while, but it went away with age. I think I’d still be angry if I felt that people had deliberately deceived me.

[@alishat-m8132]

This was so helpful for me to listen to. What I got from this is that I’m not alone and that means so much.

[@62Loralee]

My bishop told me i would die of cancer if i didn’t break up with my loving relationship with an amazing man

[@michaeltaylors2456]

Most Bishops are woefully unprepared and completely unqualified to be counseling anyone. I’d love to share some of my more shall we say interesting moments with these misguided men. Not the right forum however

[@troysnuffles]

Wtf??? He must have wanted to go out with you himself.

[@62Loralee]

@@michaeltaylors2456 pm me. Interested in hearing

[@katem2411]

Given how many ex-Mormons I've known are treated by family/friends who are still all in, it would be surprising if they weren't angry. I don't understand how Mormons can expect anything different from people who no longer believe and will never understand why so many Mormons seem to feel entitled to being angry/passive aggressive/ downright mean towards people who have left.

[@esparzasusan]

I have found the peace in atheism, that I never found in my 55 years in the church. I have lovely memories of my teen years in our ward & stake, but I have a trans teen granddaughter, and consider the church a direct threat to my family. I do try to find grace for those finding their way out, or who feel they are unable to leave at this time, but the church as an organization gets no concessions. I am bitter at the loss of 55 years of my life to a cult.

[@Mr2blue2]

Anger at the institution is co-mingled with our own self anger for being deceived. The hidden anger with self may be the harder of the two to overcome.

[@harlanlang6556]

I don't remember a lot of things from my childhood, but one thing is still clear in my mind, and that was when my friend told me at the age of 7 that his mother told him that she brought the Christmas presents, not Santa Claus. I refused to believe it because the one thing my mother taught me to believe in was Santa Claus. And it was a magical thing to believe. I wasn't ready to give up that belief at 7, but I eventually accepted that Santa Claus was a myth. People do change beliefs and understandings....when they're "ready". We're all maturing at different rates and in different ways, but we tend to mature from one stage to another. I think that the reason all churches are declining in membership is that we're all being educated about history, about science, about religion, and we all respect honesty and truthfulness. When basic beliefs gradually become unlikely to be true, such as the physical resurrection of Jesus, about as fundamental a belief as there is in Christianity, then people begin feeling bad about saying that they believe it. Most other churches are not as demanding as the LDS Church, but all it takes is one "unlikely" belief to push people out. As a contrast to leaving the Mormon Church, I left the Methodist Church and was not treated badly, and I have only good feelings and memories of that church, except for feeling that there must be something wrong with me for not believing the basic Christian beliefs which everybody else seemed to believe with no effort. I actually envied their believing. But I had no desire to change other people's beliefs. I really wonder how different I would be if I had been born into a Mormon family in Utah.

[@jonbaker476]

I wish I had been raised a Methodist tbh. I would still have most of the same values but without the crazed intensity of a Mormon. My parents were raised in Mormonism in the eighties, which made them much crazier than young Mormons nowadays. I really don't have a lot of fond memories growing up in the church. I was really stressed as a kid and dealt with a lot of perfectionism and self esteem issues

[@harlanlang6556]

@@jonbaker476 I joined the Methodist Church at 16 but was not raised in the church before that. My parents were "lapsed" Christians who were not interested in religion. When I became a Baha'i in Salt Lake City, my mother had no objection. She trusted my judgment. I really lucked out!

[@mgnwill]

‘To hate something’ and ‘being hateful’ are two totally different things. I hate rice pudding, but I’m not hateful toward it.

[@debbieshrubb1222]

You all touched my heart. Thanks for advocating for us as former Mormons. This has given me courage to advocate in turn

[@TechyBen]

I do feel the same way as a JW. The "Church" is unfixable, as by definition it protects it's self, not the individuals and not any resemblance of worship to any type of real God (let alone the kindness to orphans and widows it should be showing!).

[@sharkofjoy]

I never have anything useful to say, just thank you. Thank you for your stories and honesty. Thank you.

[@joshkeeton9616]

What an amazing heartfelt and open discussion. I came away better because of this. I will be playing and sharing this one for a long time.

[@sidvicious2845]

Hi, Excellent program and comments! Thank you for sharing your experiences and wisdom!

[@Lioness_of_Gaia]

Anger was unacceptable to express, in my family. "Turn the other cheek, pray for them, forgive & forget, etc." That's a lot of unprocessed, repressed emotion. It takes a while to give yourself permission to express it and then finding and learning healthy ways to process and release it. Changing thought patterns and beliefs take time. It can be really hard to get over the shame programming. The Phrasing that anger is a secondary emotion frames it in an avoidant way. This isn't always true. As you mourn, you go up an "emotional scale". Anger is a rung on the ladder, so to say. It's an important step that cannot be skipped if your goal is deep healing and to be an emotionally intelligent and present human.

[@Mama_298]

This popped up on my feed. I quit watching a while back because everyone seemed so angry. I was looking for uplifting content being post Mormon. This episode was what I was looking for. Thank you.

[@haroldwhite5761]

Why would people harm their own family at the behest of an outside organization? Mormon generational trauma.

[@62Loralee]

I agree John D. It can literally end my life had i kept the anger inside me.

[@katherineburford7864]

Steven Hassan's B.I.T.E. model (Control of Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion) is explained in books and videos. He's a cult expert and psychologist who had been a Moonie. Chris Shelton's you tubes on critical thinking are very helpful. He's an ex-Scientologist. Cognitive Behavioral Therapists' expertise has been invaluable for me in coping with Musical Ear Syndrome Tinnitus (an Audiologist CBT) and improving complicated areas of my life. Thanks

[@Moonfasination]

I wonder if that is why I NEVER said “I know they church is true” in testimony meetings I said “I hope the church is true”. Interesting. I’m sorry Carah 😢 your moment of pain was very real, I’m so sorry ❤ I feel your tears and pain, and I can relate ❤

[@rachelhansen2417]

I listened to ex JW stuff before making the decision to leave-partially because it was a way to deal with my crisis without looking at “anti-Mormon” content.

[@rebekahosborne4569]

Excellent Episode!! thank you all for your time and energy.. the work you're doing in so impactful

[@Mushroomstops]

I was a fundamentalist/evangelical Baptist Christian that realized it’s all untrue and I had read through the Bible cover to cover 7+ times and prayed multiple times a day, participated in multiple Bible studies and church meetings and homeschooled my kids for a total of 13 years and immersed myself in the culture from birth to 48 years. I feel many times like I threw all those years away. I’m so glad my two wonderful sons don’t believe and my husband got out with me. :-) I will likely be dealing with some form or other of anger (and many other emotions) off and on until I die but I’m good to myself and understand that this is just part of who I am at this point. I’m getting happier after about twelve years deconstructing. I’m optimistic and expecting to feel even better over time. I love that I’m kinder and more compassionate. It feels good after all that righteous Christian anger.

[@merricat3025]

What made you change your view?

[@juliasummers1770]

There are no bystanders at a riot. If you just watch and do nothing, you have contributed

[@TheDiamondWoman1]

I find that the older you are when you leave the church the angrier one is. When we left, our children were still in junior high and high school. They were not as invested and are not as angry as my husband and I.

[@Heidi-gm4mt]

It's difficult to have genuine relationships with people that have told you they would prefer your physical death over your spiritual death of leaving the church... ☠️ The pain is really good at disguising itself as anger.

[@timhansen234]

Wow this is the best episode yet!!

[@danyabreshears2386]

I never leave comments but I listen to you a lot and I just really wanted to tell you how MS helps me. I am a never mormon but I live in a certain area of Missouri that ensures that I know many mormons. I started listening out of curiosity but I keep listening because of how you help. You mentioned the issues you address applying to any high demand religion or cult but many of the same issues apply to personal abuse. As someone who recently left an abusive marriage and is trying to figure out how to handle kid and family issues I listen from a different side. I wonder if you know how much you help with conversations like this one. Some how the broader church terminology makes the concepts easier to digest when making it personal is to triggering to handle. I don't know if this makes sense but you have been a huge help to me personally because I can handle the format better than podcasts that deal specifically with what I have been through. Thank you.

[@mormonstories]

I am so so happy to hear this @Danya Breshears !!!

[@CarolynandherClothes]

Interesting. As someone from the outside, you do not seem angry or hateful at all. I think you present yourselves as cool, calm, and collected.

[@monicatulia]

Great episode. Thanks Dr. John Dehlin, John Larsen and Carah.

[@desiadaven]

So validating. Soooo validating. Carah, sometimes we are thought twins. Thanks all!

[@CarahBurrell]

❤️❤️ What are we thinking about right now?

[@desiadaven]

@@CarahBurrell Nightcap and bed? Plus the dread of kids waking too early in the morning. We are tired!

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Carah: your comments about how the church has taken your family away. Yes. Thankyou for shedding tears for yourself. They are mine too.

[@rustyshell2]

It is sad that my anxiety is conflated with feeling the spirit. That is really hurtful. Just because I can’t explain why I have anxiety, doesn’t validate the existence of the spirit.

[@solomonjulia5815]

I am currently dealing and working through this right now with my family. What I have been finding recently is there is this idea or image that I am “hateful” because I have left the church, my brother and I are very close and he knows that I have no hate for him or his choices to remain in church but yet in our daily conversation in the same breath knowing I’m not hateful he will say I am hateful and that I am playing with fire. I really had to breakdown what was happening and was able to reflect on my own experiences. I truly believe the church positioned us in way that we automatically throw up the wall if anything or anyone we encounter believes different. I started to recount all the times I have done this myself and it felt like someone was assaulting “my god”! So I can only imagine what my brother is experiencing. We were taught that anything and everything outside of the church is anti-Mormon material from a young age….and interestingly we grew up jacked Mormons, truth is we were conditioned this way. For me there is two things here, member’s are going to think we are hateful regardless and secondly….I am fucking angry, cause I’m losing my brother and there isn’t anything I can do about it!! Thank you for this content, I needed this today!

[@venlakirahvi]

This was such a great episode. Not only applicable to Mormonism and ex-mormons. My understanding is that a lot of minorities that clash with conservative values are deemed "angry" by the majority that simply doesn't understand the minority group's experience. I'm a never-mo but watch episodes because many of the themes still resonate more broadly. I recently had a family member, who works with a higher degree education program, complain that the HBTQ association/society of their students is "sometimes very angry and aggressive". I'm personally not part of the group but try to educate myself so I tried to offer a different, empathetic perspective on the matter. I was inspired by this episode and I'm going to see if I can find a similar discussion specifically from an HBTQ viewpoint. I hope it will help to create more discussion and empathy between factions.

[@jaredmitchell1302]

17:00 As someone with PTSD I went through ALOT of counselors who supposed they could treat PTSD with little to no training. I am grateful I was able to find a good therapist for PTSD but I wish someone had given me this advice years ago.

[@robertdavid2839]

Thank you so very much John. The other day you knocked the baseball out of the ballpark, congratulations. Love your show very much. I met You in Salt Lake for the first time I think it was 27th East and 30th South something like that and I gave you a copy of a three-page information sheet to an MTC professor. Keep it going I may not agree with you completely. Your podcasts are out of this world. Words cannot express your show,, however many should watch.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

I can affirm what you said at the end. Your podcasts didn't make me leave the church. I knew about you, but never watched UNTIL after I had left. Great conversation!

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

John that's so true I had a next-door neighbor back in the late 90s who wanted to be Mormon but the church would not baptize him because he was living with a couple female roommates and his current girlfriend and they would not baptize him because of that and he even promised that they would stop sex until they got married. Now the time I was only like I want to say 9 or 10 so I didn't understand fully of why he couldn't get baptized but later on I now understand the pain in the heart that the church causes.

[@anarchisttutor7423]

I always like to point out that once you stop paying tithing, it is like getting an 11% raise. 100/90=1.11(repeating)

[@wendihosac297]

Absolutely correct, seeing any of you or others in our position who get angry... helps to validate the pain and anger we are all feeling. It is comforting, as we are all trying to heal together.

[@felloserv]

The last ten years of my marriage, leading up to my divorce, I would ideate about staging my accidental death at least 3-4 times a week because I could no longer believe in the church and was struggling with pretending. I thought it would be better to be dead than to have my wife and kids know I no longer believed. I should be able to sue the church for damages to my mental health during those years, and loss of my family. It was a complete mind-f! ...and yes, when I think about the church bs now it still makes me angry. It could have taken my life and no one would have known any better.

[@carrielynn6993]

This episode brought up a lot of repressed emotions. I was born into the church and left when I was about 19 in 2001. didn’t start deconstructing until 2020 though. It was seeing posts on Facebook from a christian friend that set that in motion. I started researching from a non biased point of view and it all fell apart. I do feel angry because although I subconsciously knew Mormonism was not true I was shocked that I stopped believing in God.

[@merivalefreya7064]

self betrayal. I regret so many ways i treated people during prop 8 as a believer. Fuck that shit forever. Mormonism made me someone i am so ashamed of. I hate thinking about bearing my testimony to people in pain, If the devil was real, I was a tool of the devil THEN, not now.

[@DrBananaPig]

Another thought: The Israelites were commanded in Deut. 18.10 that "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire..." meaning they should not worship a god that requires killing your children as a sign of your devotion. This is also why the story of Abraham and Isaac is so contradictory. In 2 Chron. 28.3, Ahaz is wicked because he sacrifices his children to Moloch. A god that requires you to go through cutting your children out of your life is not worthy of your devotion.

[@merricat3025]

I would stay away from life coaches too.