Why do SO many people HATE MMORPGs?

MMOs have a long and storied history, beginning as MUDs before transferring slowly into the behemoths that they were in the early 2000's and 2010s. But recently the genre has been suffering a string of losses. Games releasing don't live up to expectations, games we want get cancelled, and the constant creep of aggressive monetization and mobile games has derailed a genre that for a while seemed to be on the rise.
But those are plagued affecting the entire gaming genre. With releases like Redfall and Gollum, and with the failures of No Man's Sky and Cyberpunk 2077 not too far behind but then you have shining gems like Elden Ring, Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom or even games with promise like Baldur's Gate 3, Dragon Age 4 and many others.
The same can't be said for the MMORPG genre which has seen a long drought of success. Old games hold the genre up while new ones flounder and fail. So much is riding on Everquest, World of Warcraft, FFXIV, Runescape, GW2, ESO, and Black Desert Online among a few others.
Games that are well past their prime in some cases.
The genre has taken hit after hit with closures of promising MMOs, cancellations of much hyped titles like Project Titan and Everquest Next and games releasing with horrific monetization, a focus on mobile, or honestly being just plain bland or broken.
So why do we hate MMORPGs? Because we haven't had a win in far too long. The genre needs a win...desperately.
It leaves us asking a question: Why do MMORPGs suck? And is there any hope for MMOs going forward?
Clips briefly used in the intro are from in order of appearance:
‪@AsmonTV‬
‪@MMOByte‬
‪@ForceGamingYT‬
‪@JoshStrifeHayes‬
Please go check them out.
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[@getondese]

The video game industry almost seems to be destroying itself. A lot of modern media seems to be doing this.

[@getondese]

Good thing for retro!

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

Really though i think we are all suffering from phenomia. Take EverQuest for example it was a bunch of guys in their 20s slapping some stuff together and a half-assed manner. Like no joke watch interviews of the devs. I think there's something to be said for being able to appreciate an experience and create the fondness. but the 70s 80 90 2000s did have fantasy and sci fi at a level that in many ways has gone down a lot in the 2010s

[@goblinphreak2132]

The MMO genre is killing itself. Every other genre is growing by leaps and bounds every year. Every other genre has shown literal proven growth in terms of player counts. Yet the MMO genre is the only one bleeding players year-over-year. You hear excuses similar to "people don't have time to play MMOs" which is bullshit. They have time to play every other game genre. FPS games, MOBA, Battle Royale, RTS, single player RPG, how can they have time to play all of these, But no time to play in MMO. The answer is that the MMO genre sucks ass right now. MMOs were originally based off MUDs. Muds were basically living worlds that you could explore. Basic, But fun. The MMO genre was supposed to expand upon that, living worlds that you explore and have fun. Somewhere down the line that idea of an MMO being a living world was thrown away, And instead becomes a simple roller coaster where you hop on the rails and you are guided from start to finish. There is no real exploration. There's no sense of living world. It's basically just a static environment. Not to mention being dumb down to the point of stupidity.

[@MrAngryMonkey100]

It's from people who will not separate fantasy and reality and purposely inject real life socio-political issues into the game outside the story and politics of the game that were written in to give the world more depth, the same people also use the excuse of "well there is politics in the game why can I not bring my politics into the game?" this is why MMORPGs have become so hated, people want an escape and these people keep injecting reality into a fantasy setting ruining the fun and relaxation of the game and the community associated with that game and also the devs not putting a stop to it has caused this issue to persist.If the devs changed the TOS and EULA to keep the two separate then the MMRPG community would be seen in a better light. I just want to play an MMO and not worry about dealing with politics outside of the game when I am playing.

[@dyrtybarstud5261]

Maybe the problem is that as consumers we have become focused on the endgame rather than the journey and rush to get there. In that rushed process we do not build a real connection to our toons and the world they live in like we did in a time before levelling guides for every part of our progress that discourage the exploration, discovery and feeling of success we once achieved in finding our own pathways to level cap then grinding hard to open the doors to end game content.

[@crystalwater505]

Agreed. Too many people want to rush and obtain things instead of just sitting back and enjoying their experience. Then they whine and cry when they finish the game too quickly and go "WhErEs ThE cOnTeNt".

[@boredfangerrude]

And MMOs are not built to make you want to care about your character or the world.

[@MrTalithan]

@@boredfangerrude What's final fantasy xiv then, chopped liver?

[@PumbaaPickles]

I grew up playing EQ, and it will always have that nostalgia, but its hard to go back to. I wish they would just remaster it, without ruining the way the game played.

[@Onwaxwings]

Check out monsters and memories bro.

[@Stands-In-The-Fire]

I think another big problem that we have to look at, and I know people hate doing it, is us. We, the gamers, particularly the older ones. There was that first generation of MMOs, call it the 97-04 group. And a lot of us started someplace in that era, either first time playing or at least even seeing other people play. And they were new, they were innovative, simply in their existence and what it meant. Fast forward 20 more years, and MMOs are no longer new and novel, they're an established genre where we've gone from "I can run around on a map with 100s or thousands of other people?!?" to "Oh yeah? Well what have you done for me lately?". And we take that established games thing forward with us when we evaluate every new game: we simultaneously want to recapture that first-time magic and get something new. Ask any addict, chasing the dragon is a sucker's game. And yet, we keep biting on it, rather than understanding we live in the new norm where MMOs aren't a novel enough experience that we can count the number of playable games on one hand. We also (full guilty as charged) come into new games with the weight of whatever games we have played previously behind our expectations and patterns. Case in point, ESO at launch. When ESO launched, as hyped as I was because Morrowind had been a huge favourite of mine, I bounced off of it early into the game. Multiple times. It wasn't until my third try that it hit me: I was "That Guy". I wasn't actually playing ESO, I was playing my previous gaming experiences and patterns *in ESO*. I had played plenty of MMOs by then and knew a fair amount of tropes and patterns, so I immediately went and started mob-grinding, exhausting any quest in an expanding localized pattern to clear an area and then moving outward, etc. From playing other Elder Scrolls games, I tried to build my character using knowledge from those, because I knew how those games worked, so of course this was going to be the same right? I was doing everything possible to try and play ESO like it was other games, because I knew better. Yeah, exactly the kind of thing I rail about now when I see people doing it. What can I say, it was an eye-opener. When I actually, finally, went in and learned the way the stats and mechanics linked together (reading tooltips? gasp!) and leaned into running around to explore the world rather than devour and grind in a linear pattern, it 100% clicked. Oh, this is the actual game! It's by no means the majority reason for new MMOs failing or the like, but I've seen time and time again with regards to players hating new MMOs... are you playing the game itself, as it is? Or are you trying to play it like it was *insert classic MMO here* and becoming frustrated that it isn't that game?

[@bountycode]

Very well put Red. Your optimism in this giant ocean of negativity is exactly what the MMO genre and community needs right now. I still go back and play my P99 but since have found a great home in Embers Adrift. So I too think there is hope if we start looking at the glass being 10% full instead of 90% empty!

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

We need hope. We also can stand to offer critism and not allow it to be precieved as all bad. Holding companies accountable WITH constructive feedback is able to stop the negative slide. Yes this upsets lower talent people who cant figure out how to handle addressing concerns, but we can be supportive regardless

[@Redbeardflynn]

Bounty, you're far too kind. Thank you for the super thanks! The 10% full line hits home. It's really what I've been trying to project and internalize for quite some time now. Thank you.

[@MrAngryMonkey100]

@@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube it boils down to keeping Fantasy Fantasy and reality separated from that and some people have blurred the line on purpose to cause problems.

[@Fanelan053]

I played EQ in 2001 as a kid. We didn't have great Internet and I didn't get to play more than a month or two. But I'll never forget the excitement of getting through everfrost peaks to blackburrow tunnel. It was so magical!

[@ChaosSlayerZX]

many people on P99 servers join game to do just that, get to about lev 20, and then quit. And then come back year later to do that again ;)

[@reasonableperson4429]

There are so many layers to this issue: game mechanics, monetization, incomplete games, game breaking bugs, lack of story among so many others. For me, the biggest one though is that I am finding more and more modern MMOs (and maybe games in general) to lack any kind of fun factor. Like they are built from the ground up with a check list designed to keep you in game for the sake of extracting money from you somehow some way. I think that is why so many people are looking to the indie studios to help revitalize the genre. Folks just want to have fun with their hobby again and enjoy that hobby with others. These larger studios couldn't care less about fun, they just want to make all the money.

[@Odseus]

Don't forget the bots.. All the fucking bots.

[@MrAngryMonkey100]

the community's behavior is part of it.

[@crystalwater505]

I don't even play MMOs. I watch you because you're interesting and I like hearing your thoughts on the genre.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Thank you so much.

[@tasselhoff1293]

I personally hate the way all MMO are instance based. I miss running through a new world and seeing other people exploring or setting up leveling camps. Everything is about queing up for the dungeon or raid and waiting 10-20mins for it to pop. Ive been chasing that MMO nostalgia for many years😢

[@timit2thelimit]

Parts of this video were strangely uplifting and got me hype about a brighter future for MMOs ❤ My favorite anecdote was when I woke up early one day in the late 90s to find my little brother sitting at the family computer. He hadn't gone to bed. Instead, he stayed up all night "baking bread" in EverQuest. Our mom overheard and came out of the bedroom to scream and lecture him while I giggled. He still cringes when I bring it up!

[@dennispick]

My opinion is we as mmo gamers are always looking for the next big mmorpg. Instead we should be focused on which game(s) offer what we are looking for in an mmorpg. If a game releases with systems in place that you don’t agree with then don’t buy it. We need to fight with our wallets so these companies know that what they are doing isn’t acceptable.

[@hashtagisaacweaver1999]

My favorite MMORPG is “New World!” Although not my first ever MMORPG, it was and still is my first “launch day” experience! (MMORPG wise, anyways. I played many COD games on launch day) Best moment: 🤷‍♂️ if any of you know how the housing system works, but I had finally reached level 30 within the region of Everfall, (many, many wolfs hunted, trees chopped down, and dungeon raids….. before finally realizing that completing quests and town jobs would level me up 10X faster.) and scraped together 20,000 🪙 for the biggest house in town. I walked up to the gate and purchased the mansion. A glorious moment indeed. Editing the bedroom and living room for at least 30 min. Walking into the back yard with a view of the church, reminded me of Eugeo’s hometown of Rulid! Now, I am once again striving for a 🥈 🏠 in the brimstone sands region.

[@Redbeardflynn]

That's awesome. Thank you for sharing

[@yaykat89]

Back in 2004 I came into contact with an Entertainer guild in SWG which led to my obsession and love of the genre. We would perform at weddings, pvp events or any other server happening and it was the most unique mmo experience I ever had the privilege to participate in.

[@Nirmithya23]

One of my favorite EQ memories was standing along a wall in the Plane of Hate, watching Innoruuk path around. I was one of over 100 players who were gathering the courage to attack the God for the first time on the Tarew Marr server. Epic times that will never be relived. We wiped, of course.

[@matthewolson2386]

One of my best experiences other then always having a group with my family in EQ was when the guild I was in raided Solteris. I still have found memories of that raid and the excitement I had in being in that zone. Other great raids I did were CoA, Ashengate, and Underfoot to name a few were also great times as well but not the same way I felt about Solteris. Truly epic imo.

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

Im looking forward to doing those raids even if it is solo. Im on TLP for real for the first time so will see. But i admire you getting to do that!

[@HenrikLarssonArt]

For me its simple - If there is a cash shop, i don't touch it. Because it screaming greed long way, no excuses. If "you" don't even believe that your own game can stand on a subscription, why should i believe in it and buy it. The free to play modell have ruined many mmorpg's. This is how it is when mmorpg's have become a market for shareholders that want a raising profit for every quarter, it becomes a lemon that they trying to squeeze out every last drop of, before they throw it on the mmorpg dump. So i don't think its the bugs that have ruined the mmorpg genre, i think its the greed. But hey, i can be wrong.

[@Smullik]

The veil that games put up infront of their monetization methods is growing thinner and thinner and MMO players are some of the first to see something for what it is

[@williampalmer8052]

I can't single out one "best" experience, but I would say that, for me, Vanguard captured a feeling that I haven't found since. I started in early access, and was there until the moment the server shut down. No other game has managed to connect three distinct spheres of gameplay the way it did. Whether you were a crafter, diplomat, or adventurer, what you did contributed to the whole world and affected everyone else. And owing to its small population, you knew, played alongside, or were at least vaguely familiar with just about everyone else as well. The lack of level scaling made it feel like there were always new challenges to conquer, and new zones to look forward to exploring. The world felt vast, and full of intrigue, and each zone's lore was uncovered through diplomacy, and winning over the locals' trust, not through endless cutscenes and info dumps. Combat could be slow and challenging against difficult enemies, but also gave a feeling of power and mastery when mowing down less formidable foes. It never felt like a slog, like a chore, which is how it seems in gameplay footage of a certain "successor." I would like to see a real Vanguard 2, built upon its foundations but set in a more content-dense Telon and stripped of the tedium exemplified by the original game's 50-55 grind.

[@rept7]

The fact every major MMO that is out on the market is at least 10 years old does a lot more damage than you'd think. I want to play something where rotations aren't a thing and builds are more about complimenting your playstyle instead of optimizing for numbers. However that can be achieved, it can only be done by a **new** MMO that reaches that Elden Ring, Baldur's Gate 3, or Breath of the Wild level of groundbreaking success. Until such a thing happens, I may as well "hate" an entire genre I really want to get into.

[@Serevarno]

My favorite MMO ever was Everquest Online Adventures on PS2. I was Thom the Bard on Proudpine Outpost. GMs held a surprise server event in Freeport, and I was organizing people into groups through general chat so we had all the spawn points of the big mobs covered and we successfully defended the city. I was awarded a few unique to the server items from the lead GM running the event. I was also known for being the person in our guild that would do chat callouts for people to get out of AOE attacks from bosses (like Lady Vox and Siliskor) by shouting WANG. Our main group splintered from the guild we were in and formed our own called "We Are Now Guildless". WANG. XD

[@Sammysapphira]

Because people hate playing content and want everything given to them for no effort which defeats the purpose of a long form genre.

[@Dr4g0n89]

Publishers & Developers know that MMORPG (hence the name Massive Multiplayer) bring out the most profit with the least effort. The more players you have the more profit you make. Build your game upon that profit you come to pay to win, go one step further and make the game extremely unpleasent for non paying players and make the game as competitive as you can. Which will all result in more profit and less fun. I thought Swords of Legends online would be my next MMORPG until i reached the Raids and the Holiday events started. It was litterally walking in a flat empty pond collecting shiny globes that fall from the sky. It was so unimaginitively bad and horrible that i quit the game. It was so stupid i was like what the hell. World Of Warcraft had the major bonus at launch that it had already a franchise of gamers who love Warcraft and to be in the World itself was just so immersive and satisfying that it made it a great game.

[@Remianen]

Yeah, this is probably why I'm still playing EQ1 and City of Heroes. My favorite memory was my first trip to Vex Thal In Everquest. We were half an expansion behind (PoP had just come out) and I never thought it possible for a raid to last 16 hours but in those days, whatever you left up, another guild would come and kill. We stuck it out all the way to Aten Ha Ra, wiped to her twice, then kicked her multiarmed ass. Hell, we wiped to Blob 1! Man, there were like 40 people who called in sick to work or school just to get this done. That would NEVER happen today with "vending machine raids". Heck, it's rare to even get people together for four hours to raid!

[@nicholascowling7052]

Great intro man! I remember when WOW was released... lol. I think I was too young and inexperienced to get frustrated and the joy and excitement at being able to play definitely was stronger than my disappointment. Also... I think a lot of people were more understanding as Blizzard seemed to be genuinely surprised by how popular the game turned out to be at launch, and also surprised at how poor their capacity was to handle that volume. (The also gave day refunds every so often for those first few months when the servers were really bad.) As to why so many new mmorps fail, I think we are chasing that feeling of excitement or wonder we previously had. All of these games seem to copy systems that are popular from other mmorpgs, but outside of story and settings, don't have anything that really wows the player. I've tried a bunch of new mmos throughout the years as they come out, and while some are more enjoyable than others, none seem to have that same polish and care that WoW had. GW2 seems to be still going strong, but even then, it still feels just like everything else. Started playing EQ. From there, WoW was a monumental jump forward, after that, there hasn't been any game that's made the same kind of leap forward progressing the genre.

[@Redbeardflynn]

I'm glad you liked the intro! Thank you! You have a very valid point - chasing that feeling. Almost like the first experience was "too good"

[@Jiraki_the_Wingless]

I've got hope still! It doesn't hurt. I have so many stories over the years, it's hard to pick a favorite. I've made countless real life friends through MMOs, friends I still keep in touch with decades later. I'm hoping to keep that streak going.

[@lowpinglag]

3:47 You mention a few MMOs that had a bad launch, but most people have forgotten the worst MMO launch in my opinion, Anarchy Online. The game was virtually unplayable, had constant crashes, your character would fall through the world get stuck, and was so bad the dev game out a free item to those that stayed subscribed. 8:10 A game that closed. My MMO home since 1999, Asheron's Call, shut down January 2017.

[@R4VEFOX]

I just went back to AO and am amazed I ever left it. Nothing like AO, period!

[@BrightlifeMMOs]

Holy. Editing. Batman. That beginning TV scene is inspiring.

[@brianmurphy6480]

I don't hate MMORPGs. I hate the things nowadays that call themselves MMORPGs, wearing the superficial characteristics of the real ones of old like some sort of alien skin suit. 🤷‍♂️ Edit: I think WoW killed, not the genre, but the expectations of the companies making them. It was no longer enough to make a great RPG accessible to and loved by thousands; each and every one had to be flashier, more expensive, and more profitable than anything that came before. Everyone suddenly wanted to act and be treated like a rock star, instead of an indie band with a cult following. So they promised what nobody could deliver, and suffered the inevitable fallout when we all realized it.

[@thewintersteiner]

Hitting level 26 and getting Clarity for my EQ enchanter circa 2001 was an incompatible mmo accomplishment for me. I made so many friends and started making money selling the buff also. It’s like being the only one with a car and license when you’re a teenager

[@briars83]

Great video RedBeard! I still believe in the MMORPG genre. There will never be a perfect one size fits all mmo game imo. Adventuring in WoW back in 2006 when it was new to me and making friends in game was fun. PUGs back then didn't have a bad rep as it does now.

[@Redbeardflynn]

Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. I didn't jump in to WoW until Burning Crusade but I remember loving it at that point.

[@k0mm4nd3r_k3n]

Man, that bit with the TVs and the different MMORPG gamer youtubers talking about the absolute state of the MMORPGs, that bit was truly inspired content. Bravo. Magnifique. Keep doing what you're doing haha.

[@SephPumpkin]

This deserves more views. I’ve also been feeling this great disappointment with mmorpg’s for far too long so I get it. Awesome intro btw, I’ve been watching all of those guys talk about mmorpg’s.

[@paltrax]

yea i remember age of conan's content gaps at launch (among other problems) but they did seem to fix it after not too long with ymirs pass an tarantia commons two fairly big zones but yea i think modern gamers aren't as forgiving on that sort of stuff anymore

[@Donler]

We need a long, challenging leveling experience where time and skill alone determine your capability as a player. WoW Hardcore is a step in the right direction for the genre. Sorry Asmon, death penalties are what was needed all along.

[@aldiana218]

I just started EQ.... again.... on the new server. We shall see how that goes. Would love to find a server that is friendly to folks who played way back when but are starting fresh... The people I met, friendships made.. the last point I needed to become GM Artisan! Lots of good memories... I'd love to find that again.

[@darkwulf2k]

I think MMO's biggest problem is it has become so single player friendly. Now this is necessary evil a bit, but the grp content just hasnt delivered, or become soloable. My best raid memory still comes PoWater vs Coirnav. TLDR version is at less than 1% of his HP left, we got booted from the zone for the 15 minute timer. Never seen a roster go from + online to like 20 so fast lol. I was there in the snow after climbing up the hill both ways for the launch of WoW day 1, and the server issues. It is really amazing how the genre has changed, and going to change going forward. For our sake I do hope that golden boy mmo comes, but with so many options available out now, and to come, will we even notice?

[@danpitzer765]

At this point, I'm just hoping and praying that whatever the secret project with one of their own IPs is that Daybreak is working on is what EQNext /should/ have been, rather than the monstrosity that had the people who coded it calling it anti-fun (which is what got it canned). Give me the complexity and social networking ability of Luclin-era EQ, and a modern engine and UI (and without the hell levels, please, for the love of Thule).

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

Agreed completely. I keep thinking about TLP servers and what people are doing and what lessons may be learned as Daybreak toys with it

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

Seems to me some solutions can be simple. Such as soft caping repeating quests but also making all exp from questing. Pushing people to run around the entire world and help others. Many players want to do things the fastest way.. okay so dont just make it take longer, make it take doing things like creating an alt. So much potential!

[@robertfugate2232]

I refuse to get hyped for any mmorpg these days. Been burned too many times. Theyre gonna suck until I see them released and see that they dont suck.

[@lifetotheminimal1211]

Monsters and Memories is looking promising, but I’m high on hopium

[@robertfugate2232]

Yeah you are

[@VarnFury]

Mixture of things. I've played MMO's since 2004, starting with EverQuest and moved out to many other games. I feel many MMO turn end game into a "Collect ___ amounts of currency to get gear" follow by "Grind ____ Zone Raid boss for best gear". This is all fine and good but it's boring. I remember EQ being one those games where you randomly talk to NPC and they might talk about a legendary weapon. You'd find a hilt in some zone before talk to the same NPC later to learn you need go to another zone because they heard a Rat King found a Rune... You go kill the boss, get a rune and the NPC would send you somewhere else. That sense of Adventure is kinda lost in todays MMO. The other thing is the interaction with people seem very different in todays MMO. I use to enjoy jumping into groups, randomly chatting about life and such while just randomly grinding down enemies in a zone, it's how you made friends back in the old MMO's. People use to be really chill back then.... today, there are allot people who like be trolls or toxic, dungeons become a speedrun challenge (looking at you, WoW Mythics) and people only want to best of the best for groups/raids. It sometimes get to a point that people just don't want to deal with other people, hell some MMO's introduce NPC so you don't have to deal with it. Lastly, allot of today content can be solo. Old MMO's use to have you group up to get things done while leveling and there were a few areas you could solo (if you had the right class). As long you have decent gear, you can just mow down enemies like it nothing till you hit end game in todays MMOs... hell some "Group" quest can be done solo if you have the right class and gear set up, never needing another people till you hit end game unless you want to hit a random dungeon that might have a few quests tie to it.

[@demris15]

This was great… I loved playing Thornblade, was my first time raiding and having a 50 character… I’m sad I didn’t have the time to stick with it

[@civilian4live]

The main reason is ALL games, not just MMO's are not made to be fun anymore, they are made to extract as much money from you as possible. This is enforced by 2 sub reasons. 1. You can't 'win' an MMO. It is not possible to actually 'finish' an MMO. 2. The social pressure.

[@thetopface]

The healthcare industry, the energy industry, the legal industry, the political industry, the military industry, the movie industry, the music industry... Name an industry that doesn't still fail us in 2023. Why would the gaming industry be unique?

[@davidburnside8370]

I still think Age of Conan and Wildstar were some of the best innovative games to shake up MMO's that were just handled so poorly. It's sad that they do not get any attention or praised for the things they did right that new games should really be considering.

[@ADesertVoice]

I wouldn't write of Throne and Liberty yet. It is only in BETA. IF NCSOFT takes the criticism to heart and fix the static combat and remove auto-play, I think it will take off and be a success.

[@IPlayVideoGamesAndNothingElse]

I think of every single game the same. It’s underdeveloped broken/ buggy over monetized garbage until the industry can prove otherwise.

[@boredfangerrude]

The genre has great potential but the way we talk about them, cover them and develop them is wrong. We get excited for games that have archaic features as mandatory, we hype up every MMO, we don't go into far enough depth when talking about MMOs and most importantly, we aren't trying to be the solution.

[@joeabernathy5402]

I've tried WoW, SWOTOR, FF14, DCUO, Eve, The Secret World and ESO trying to find one these games that u actually like but the biggest issue for me is there's not a single mmo on the market with any legitimate respect for my time. They're designed to be addictive in the internet of generating money first and foremost, with being a fun and enjoyable experience being arguably a complete afterthought.

[@bengaming3649]

The big issue in my mind, is that they need to stop thinking about MMOs in terms of millions of players/subscribers. Too many people want too many different things for them to shoot for those types of number and that is why all of them fail. Also they need to stop being so greedy. Sure they need to make a profit, but they need to try shooting for profitable without trying to squeeze every penny they can out of every little thing. Until they figure this out, MMOs as a genre are pretty much dead.

[@lifewater]

For me (outside of pay2win or pay2inconvienience) it’s just that games do whatever it takes to hit mass appeal. This sounds like a good idea because more players = better to most. To me that’s a bad thing, it leads to no grind, lack of difficulty, brain dead questing, fully solo enabled gameplay, streamlined leveling, theme park game construction. But it really just comes down to me being old. It’s dumb to expect these kind of things in todays market. I’m just a relic of the past

[@jasonm7997]

A guild name Coldlight, i met many friends in DAOC we even made the ranking boards and we were not hardcore players. My favorite memories are from this game. Not Everquest (everquest is still my favorite of all time). I the comrondery of this guild with members named ladyhawk, sparhaken (can't quite remember if the second name is correct) Defy, some ogre lady lol and many more! Sorry p1999, Daoc just beat you out on my guild faves..... Although doing fungi king during kunark with just 3 people was good times too.

[@jasonm7997]

ps. MMO's don't require us to meet others and we have lost a lot of that experience. Actually playing with others, adding as friends and creating relationships.

[@antondovydaitis2261]

Not soon, but the long term future is personalized games tailored to each customer by AI. You can logout anytime you want, but you can never leave.

[@ukigaumaukigauma2032]

I don't know i feel like mmos just try to overcomplicate their systems while not giving you enough freedom with character builds and world exploration. Armor set bonuses and mods like damage meters pigeonhole players builds; everything being instanced takes away from exploration and finding random rare mobs. My favorite mmo is Everquest Online adventures frontiers for the Playstation 2. There were no mods, you controlled 100% of your characters build, no instances, you had to come together as a group to accomplish things because the game wasn't solo friendly at all, of course you can build/gear and use abilities in creative ways to do some crazy stuff though. The majority of your gear could be resold after wearing it... I don't know just simple fun times

[@TheRexTera]

I think players today want something that’s more singles minded than an MMORPG. It’s easier to have a consensus in a community of a game around a game mode like a Battle Royal or a DOTA style game. MMORPGs are by nature something that’s fragmenting the community. It also usually end up having too many features the developers can’t support. Just look at Retail WoW. Just look at how small potion of the game is relevant compared to the actual scale of the world. There is no chance Blizzard could ever have the resources to truly “evergreen” up all of that content

[@pppoopoo4514]

I literally just want another classic WoW without the loot RNG. I want a medieval fantasy tab target MMO with arenas and battlegrounds, and I want it to be impossible to play the same expansion 7 times and not get the best weapon of that expansion. Looking at you, warglaives.

[@Zhiroc]

MMOs have the problem that they no longer excel in any niche. About the only one I can think of is the ability of advanced players to be able to gank new/casual players... and that's not really much of a selling point. Early MMOs was where you could go to have interactions with lots of people, and while that still is true to some extent, purely social interactions are now commonplace in various forms. I've said before, and I'll reiterate that to me, a future successful MMO has to invent gameplay that depends on 1000s of players. Take Eve, the only one that comes close. Without its galactic intrigue machinations, its intricate player-based crafting and economy, it would be nothing.

[@Chris-zg7ty]

I'm not so optimistic about gaming and especially MMOs. Until the gaming industry has a reckoning that realigns game development away from this greedy corporate mindset that puts cash generation over everything else I don't think anything will change. At least not with AAA games. The only hope are indy games but we all know how next to impossible it is for an indy developer to create a game as costly and time consuming as an MMO. Just look at Pantheon development and that game had the benefit of Brad McQuaid (at least for a time). Maybe Ashes of Creation can make something happen or Monsters and Memories but that will be a long slog to completion. Sadly, I think we will just have more Throne and Liberty garbage unless and until people stop making those games so profitable.. As for my favorite MMO RPG story it probably has to be completing my first epic weapon in EQ (Druid epic). Completing that back in the day was truly epic. Running around as one of the very few people on the server with a powerful weapon that stood out so much visually (actual animations/effects) was a serious sense of accomplishment. That or maybe my guild killing Quarm for the first time. Defeating that boss felt like the culmination of such a long, fun journey of raiding in EQ. Very satisfying gaming moment.

[@Midori_Hoshi]

ORPGs and the gaming industry as a whole have pretty much only gotten worse since around the year 2000. I find myself hopeful that an upcoming game won't fuck us over with various forms of bullshit but then it almost always happens. I wonder why I even bother with video games at all anymore.

[@dave8413]

Hey Flynn, fix your mustache :D

[@boredfangerrude]

Before going far into the video, my answer is stagnation, greed and investors who don't understand the genre or its fans.

[@markodardanis5667]

The magick for the few early months..EQ Bam!

[@javierkiman8302]

Not all need to hate mmorpgs. Not noticeable to know if people hate games that are repetitive and take too much time on the same controls with it not being like Animal Crossing involvement. I don't really want to play a game that brings elongated strain and of another getting further in that method of gaming like RuneScape. When Smash bros is very fun but limited content or Animal Crossing on the kind gossip and a trade off from favors being the only best choice, unlike others in Animal Crossing. That has great graphics for a GameCube game like some others have. Once you look into games of GameCube.

[@Jeff-ne1lh]

There is something else that the gaming community refuses to admit...Hipsters love them some retro. If it's new it automatically sucks and if it's retro or Indy it's automatically the best thing eva x10.

[@ChaosSlayerZX]

Let me tell you why I "hate" - or rather don't hate, I just don't care, because its less than 1% chance that any new game can deliver what I want, and I have too little time now to play, to spend it on getting and putting few dozen hours into new MMO, and I will soon abandon. When I played EQ1 in 99-04 I loved it, and I literally have nothing else to compare it with - it was the only one. However by end of my run I already started to get annoyed with certain things. I got very firm idea what I like and what I disliked. EQ2 and WoW addressed a significant portion of my EQ1 grievances, but not all. While they removed many tidies hardcore mechanics that always felt forced, they introduced new things that I also didn't liked. By 2012, when I left MMOs for good, I knew exactly what I want from my game, and how I want thing to set up, and none of existing MMO ever since did that. This is does not apply only to certain base features and concepts, but down to how I want to class balances set up and so on. Since that day I started working on my own EQ1 Emulator server that will be set up exactly how I want it to. I hope to complete this grand project one day.

[@mgaming7]

Best Day ever was getting my First EPIC in EverQuest 1.... I had to take a monk down into Naggy's lair and Feign death so I could monitor the ragefire spawn. I slept at my computer for 3 days and it finally spawned at 3AM on a monday morning and I was able to get enough guildies and just random helpers to get the fight done. Best day ever. EQ 1 was the best mmo ever. but the MOST important part of the MMO was the COMMUNITY... all games like wow, swtor etc have the worst, most toxic asshats in the world playing those games. EQ has the Best community of any game ever.

[@FirstNameLastName-okayyoutube]

MMORPG players are like when a girl says " a guy should just know how to get with me". Western world does not really want spin around color blasts, we want story and we dont want to have to explain how much we want continuity friendly storytelling. Yes game play as well, but story that makes sense and is not a bunch of aweful west coast unfunny jokes. Asian markets have majority chunks that actively disbelieve in continuity. And apparently everyone struggles with story telling. ESO is only around imo because of the story. Otherwise its graphics would not save the soulness grouping environment. MMO requires something that players will want to talk to eachother about. It wont be how your dress flutters when you attack, and is it not a good thing to discuss the 0.03% drop chance of the common gear. Mmo's suck because of cultural conflicts of interest.

[@MrAngryMonkey100]

because most of the time it's a community's bad behavior using off platform behavior to punish other players in-game they know this is violating TOS and EULA it's torous interference of a contract by a 3rd party.the nutjobs needs to realize they are going to be held responsible when the time comes..

[@Mirx777]

I just want to point out that the market has changed drastically in the last 15-20 years. Now everyone make games for the Asian market and not just Asian companies, because they have the largest audience = profit. In this case all the Asian trends are global now. So we can cry but no one cares as long as they make good money. :)

[@cory8619]

Over 20 years later and Everquest is still the best.

[@aseraaviendha9872]

Come hang out in Embers ;)

[@javierkiman8302]

By the method with how you are speaking it thoroughly is wrong Redbeardflynn.

[@goblinphreak2132]

I would dare argue that the MMO genre is the only one fucking up. Because out of all the gaming genres, The MMO genre is the only one losing players year-over-year. Meanwhile every other genre is growing in player base. Not to mention more people are becoming gamers everyday. How can more people join the gaming community but none of them want to play MMOs? We hear dumbass excuses like "no one has time to play MMOs." Well how come they have time to play every other genre? It's not that they don't have time, It's that they feel it's a waste of time because the games aren't fun. Strengths and weaknesses. One of the biggest aspects to be removed from RPG gaming. The worst offender being MMORPGs. A skeleton being immune to piercing, But weak to bludgeon weapons, fire magic, and holy magic. Treants being weak to slashing weapons and fire magic, But heals if you cast water magic. This idea of a strengths and weakness system has disappeared from modern gaming. The only game that I know that continues the proper strengths and weakness system is pokémon. Could you imagine if pokémon got rid of strengths and weaknesses? It would be boring as fuck! And yet MMOs, you can cast a fireball on a fire elemental and it dies. THAT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. A fish will not die from water magic.... You have to use physical weapons or lightening magic. I could go on for days. Because the system no longer exists. I had one guy on Reddit try to argue, The strengths and weakness systems are not fair. Both because someone out in the world would be able to absolutely dick on you by exploiting your weakness, to the idea that you would miss out on content because of your weakness. They want to be this unstoppable force. The problem there is that all current MMOs are designed that way. They already have the games where they are in an unstoppable force. And yet they keep begging for new games where that mentality is continued. And when it is continued, they decide they don't want to play it. Because their "insert favorite game" already has it. There is this moronic sense of give me what I already have, And when given, they returned to their favorite game. So the new game doesn't even get a chance to grow. They keep asking for the same shit. And shit it is. That person has a fear of missing out. That stupid FOMO meme. Scared that they can't 100% the game with one character. Scared that they can't do a dungeon because it's their weakness. You aren't supposed to be able to solo the entire game.... You should miss out. You arent a god. you are someone living in that mmo world. You arent supposed to be unstoppable. World of Warcraft was amazing back in the day, because you would actually die, You would actually lose, And you would have to try again. Sure if you want to party it was a lot easier than if you soloed. But even at a party you would still end up dying. You had a sense of adventure. Modern MMOs you basically never die. It's so easy that you can reach max level in a week. Never dying isn't fun. No matter how many times people try to claim that it is. Look at elden ring. People die constantly, and yet they never give up. They keep dying, they keep trying, and eventually they overcome that fight, that feels so good when you finally beat that battle. The dopamine high is just amazing. And you go man I can't wait for the next fight. I can't wait to struggle and lose so I can feel that high again. MMOs don't have that. They don't have that sense of "I'm about to get fucked up".... And that takes me back to the twat on Reddit. Thinking that it would be unfair if someone exploited his weakness, If he had one. If he was a fire mage, and a water mage came up and just kept hitting critical hits from doing water damage. Thinking that this wouldnt be fun. Of course it's not really fun to lose. But it is fun when you overcome an obstacle. Being unstoppable god in a game is never fun. Your greatest time playing games, guaranteed, was when you struggled and overcame to win. Modern MMOs don't have any struggle. It's easy, It's watered down, It's garbage. Riot, maybe they make an MMO that is actually hard. Maybe they'll have a proper strengths and weakness system considering their MOBA and even their FPS game have these systems. Maybe they'll have proper story. Maybe they'll have a world that actually feels like you're living in it. Who knows. For me, My biggest loss was Star wars galaxies. The crafting system was immense. Crafters actually had a reason to exist. You can become a master craftsman and people would actually come to you knowing that you made some amazing gear. That doesn't exist in modern MMOs. Crafting is almost always a side thought. And they do it in a way that it becomes tedious and boring. They do in a way to where you have to pay to win. And that's bullshit. They design these games specifically to have artificial walls that you have to pay to get through. It's a design principle that's ruining the landscape of MMOs. $15 a month subscription is more than enough money. This get rich quick idea for MMOs is absolutely retarded. $15 a month * 1 million players is 15 million a month. A small MMO game studio can pay their entire dev team for multiple years off of this, and still have money left over for other things. The absolute greed of the industry is what's ruining it.

[@domehammer]

I like MMORPGs but most MMORPGs focus on the MMO and forget what RPG is. Modern WoW is a dumpster fire of a RPG and depending on server the MMO part is a burnt out crack house. WoW shines at end game group content to point it ignores almost everything else.

[@mattstansbeary3068]

Here a hint. It will not come. I Remember a SOE Developer that work on EQN. There isn't 1 MMORPG there are many and out of all of them you will find a piece of what you think is great about it but looking for 1 Perfect MMORPG it will never come.

[@boredfangerrude]

There can be a perfect MMO for you but not for everyone. I've experienced it myself with RuneScape 2 and Rift.

[@halfmint5519]

when you can equip 3-5 passives, but each one costs as much as an Ar-15 or more ($1300) to max level each. when you can buy boots, vests, helmets, gloves for $250 each, but need 16 copies to max level.

[@MORGATH99]

we hating em ? i dont have em

[@blaket1841]

Because gamer dads turned them into credit card swipe simulators with gdkp.

[@wudookid3492]

I want an MMO that isnt grind fest. MMO that inst a chore simulator online. I am pretty casual player if i compare myslef to other MMO players but even though I love the fantasy of power progression. But i dont know any MMO that lets me play the game the way I want to achieve certain power levels. They all will force me into borring grind at least or grind + sweaty competitve content at worst case. MMOs dont feel like games anymore sadly personally for me. Borring quests. Plain combat mechanics. Technical issues like servers that explode if it has 20+ players on single map etc. And social aspect isnt anymore such a huge deal in modern age of global comms and social medias

[@viridian10]

if you have balls of steel and skin as thick as a rhino try mortal online 2. completely novel idea and very fun as a hardcore mmo, 1200 hours in and I can’t play anything else and trust me I’m in the same boat as everyone else every modern mmo sucks but this one

[@DesrynDoes]

Dude, excellent video, all-around. MMORPG players are super jaded at this point and tend to sabotage their own enjoyment. Sometimes even before release. If you were throwing shade at the Age of Conan tutorial, though, I'll fight you on that. Tortage was still, to this day, one of the most memorable, polished, and well-done "tutorials" I can think of outside of the Isle of Refuge in EQ2. Now, if you're saying the tutorial was great and the game after was rougher at launch, well, OK I can agree with that. :P I almost spat my coffee with, "Pain in the dick!" 10/10, would watch again

[@mrfish229]

Because gamers can't stop comparing themselves with others. Nobody likes p2w but 100% of the time people drops a p2w game is because they comparing themselves with others. Imagine if someone quit life because someone has more advantages than you, literally loser mentality.

[@slizzysluzzer]

MMOs are boring and they always have been and they always will be. They're one part walking simulator, one part mindless combat, one part timing puzzles - that are also mindless in the end - papered over with an air of enforced sociality to gloss over the fact that, without that, you have half a game. They are idle games with a chatbox, subscription fees to roleplay in stagnant and uninteresting settings. And the legitimately interesting parts of having all these players gathered together and sharing the same world is quickly clamped down upon and seen as a fault instead of a means of generating emergent gameplay in a living and changeable world. The Corrupted Blood incident and UO's virtual ecology should have been the guideposts forward. Instead it's nothing but curated content that I'm sure developers and designers spend much time on - but end up coming off as cookie cutter and built for everyone, because it is. The world ends up being nothing more than a stagnant series of collectables between expansion cycles that are very elegantly produced - but leave you feeling cold by the end of it. This is a core fault of the genre and it always has been. Nobody wants to experiment because that would mean threatening the revenue stream. At least mobile games are honest about fleecing you out of your money.

[@IPlayVideoGamesAndNothingElse]

I don’t like MMO’s simply because I’m forced to solo in every one of the ones I play. I try and talk in chat but I’m always ignored even when I ask for help with understanding things in the games.

[@donnyosrs8282]

osrs = best mmo forever and always

[@merelythepawn]

"The problem with modern MMO's is they suck" Well that's an easy conclusion. How about, The problem with modern MMO's is they lack the refined game design principles, that others before them learned from. DikuMUD had how many people playing since release? They did what now? They typed stuff and quaffed and fleed... what nonsense are you babbling?

[@michaelmorrison5280]

You're wrong.

[@boredfangerrude]

Why is he wrong?

[@michaelmorrison5280]

@@boredfangerrude He just is okay. Leave me alone.

[@elwood_eq7550]

Let's be real about a couple things...1. MMO's do not help create meaningful friendships or communities...and 2. They do not provide opportunity for any real achievement in a persons life. Friendships/Community: The biggest reason for these are to help yourself, and others, when times are bad. (i.e. Moving, death in family, marriage, job loss, etc...) When you are young the "need" for this kind of support is less, but still important. Anyone in an MMO will usually offer a kind word to someone suffering a death in the family, but that means little when you need someone to watch the kids so you can keep your job while taking care of funeral plans. The "friends" you make in MMOs are "Fair Weather Friends", but in defense of this it almost has to be this way. Online scams, and people looking to take advantage of others on the internet, very often use the social aspect of MMOs to find victims. While their are exceptions, of course, but if you depend on people you meet online to fill a void in your life in a meaningful way it will most likely end up being a terrible mistake. Achievement/Goals: MMOs are games! Pure and simple fact. Anything you do, while being a fun memory, will mean almost nothing when the servers go dark for good. Compared to the time invested in the goals you achieve in MMOs, and what you ACTUALLY get out of it, it's hollow at best. Time spent in the real world achieving goals is MUCH better time spent compared to logging 100+ hours (or more compared to old school EQ) in order to get that legendary +1 bastard sword (old school D&D ref haha) is a major sign of an unhealthy problem. Try bragging to ANYONE in the real world and tell them how long something like that took and watch the blank face stare back at you with pity in their eyes. Videos games are fun. It's fun to play them with others, but do not place too much value and meaning in them trying to make it out to be something with a higher purpose. This has been true since the Arcade days of old in the malls across America in the 80's. That was social, fun, and ultimately a colossal waste of money! Sure was fun...but fun is fun...nothing more and nothing less.

[@hashtagisaacweaver1999]

Can’t you say this stuff about ANY online video game though? 😂

[@subzero308]

I feel mmos r just boring id much rathee play a game like skyrim but Coop with drop in drop out coop like Borderlands wish they would port skyrim togrther to xbox. I would pay to be able to ppay Skyrim with a friend.

[@temporaryname8905]

I am loving WoW right now. I actually enjoyed Shadowlands quite a bit too.

[@eddie5525]

Monetization Saturation

[@wowsnav]

I hate modern MMORPG's because they are extremely casual and don't respect the player's intelligence, skill, or time. The best MMORPG's were all before World of Warcraft came out: Ultima Online, EverQuest, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE Online. WoW tried to reshape the genre to be a very easy, casual experience for unskilled people, and thus WoW and every single MMORPG after it were enormously simplified experiences that didn't require anything out of the player but a short time investment. Even if someone decided to make a truly classic style MMORPG, it would be a financial failure because the vast majority of gamers today are very low skilled, low effort players that want to be spoonfed dopamine hits through trivial accomplishments. You will never get millions of players in a hardcore classic style MMORPG with things like full loot PVP or heavy XP loss on death. If you want to play a MMORPG today, you get to brave the hordes of microtransactions, foreign gold/currency sellers, bots, instanced content so it's not a truly connected MMO world, handholding mechanics everywhere, and last but not least, devs that intentionally try to remove the "massively" part of MMORPG, i.e EverQuest guilds could bring 100 players to a raid if you wanted, but most guilds were closer to 60, then WoW vanilla capped it at 40, then 25, then 10, a full 6x less than the EQ average. Doesn't really feel like you're going on a big dangerous raid with your guild when you have 10, or even 25 people. All these problems essentially came from World of Warcraft and its desire to market MMORPG's to people that are bad at games or don't even play games at all. They utterly destroyed an entire genre because WoW printed so much money, every single other MMORPG dev or dev considering making one decided "We need to copy what they did!"