I tried every popular MMO. It did not go well.

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World of Warcraft, Old School Runescape, Final Fantasty XIV. All of these massively popular MMOs have one thing in common, they struggle to attract new players. Why is that?
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[@JoshStrifeSays]

subway surfers on the right side of runelite -plugin when?

[@ThisisCitrus]

Do you have to comment on every single video about MMOs? It's like going into peoples Twitch and advertising your own channel.

[@Zadamanim]

​@@ThisisCitrusits nothing like that lol

[@themGAMEman]

​@@ThisisCitrusexcept its nothing like that tho

[@ThisisCitrus]

@@Zadamanim It kinda is.

[@nikito702]

Part of the whiplash with WoW is that somewhere along the way they kinda shelved all the previous expansions from being mandatory experiences for an up-and-coming adventurer. This got overwhelming because there were so many different expansions you had to play through just to get to the new stuff. They made a change so that you can now choose to do any expansion that you want on a new character up until you get to the point of the newest expansion. However, new players go to Battle for Azeroth no matter what with no real explanation of what's going on or who anybody is. It's like being pushed into season 8 of Game of Thrones when you've never seen a single episode.

[@flameknightdragon]

and it does not help that many of the zone quests end in either dungeons no one does anymore, in raids that no one does anymore, or behind outdated reps that take forever to farm.

[@dexterwillmon]

It’s honestly why I like leveling more, in classic.

[@Zvalgryn]

​@@flameknightdragonyeah I got super depressed trying to do nostalgic content and it's just completely empty.

[@igot2remember]

@@flameknightdragon They could help alleviate this problem by putting in a roulette system like FFXIV. Current expansion player earn currency to use for current expansion by doing old content, so that way new player are not left out to dry with a empty world. Would help even more if they had a min item, and level system for older content.

[@EnderGoku9001]

@@flameknightdragon fr they fucked up the dungeon finder in shadowlands and now you can't really farm rep like you used to without hitting high level

[@Tom-Pendragon]

I think I'd love to see another triple head to head, maybe RuneScape 3, Elder Scrolls Online and GW2?

[@yeetmyteet69]

Agreed, that would be great

[@af6756]

GW2 would just blow the competition..

[@azenyr]

These youtubers complain about MMOs but never play the actually good ones

[@Blueniter]

I remember playing Elder Scrolls Online just for 10 minutes, Did not look bad but did not hook me.

[@dragonriderabens9761]

ESO in 2023 is one of the worst cash grabs in MMOs out there so that one gets a hard pass for me

[@savnana3605]

I feel like FF14's intent is "just do the ENTIRE main story forever, and leave its rails when you're comfortable." Targetting a single player experience first, and the 'mmo' part when you feel like it.

[@Crealgood]

@RhosVelka What? Have you even played it? It is most definitely a 'true' MMORPG, whatever that even means. It was way more ways to interact with other people in the world than any other MMO. While it is heavy on the story elements, which happen to be one of the best story lines of any game ever, it even goes as far as having an entire Casino you can gamble in with other players.

[@cassidyreid5059]

I get what you're saying here for sure@RhosVelka

[@bamberscher_offiziell7261]

@RhosVelkathats what it is, also the reason why i quit/pause. Absolutely Shit Concept.

[@TannerGrigg]

you must not understand MMOs FFXIV gates you into doing certain dungeon and raids before being able to progress... the map is clearly linear and no freedom to roam.. way to many loading screens. most boring experience for new players ever... i have read "you sense a hostile presence" 3 billion times lol@@Crealgood

[@HappyHubris]

@RhosVelka 100% agree. It's a movie and social space with combat and crafting afterthoughts.

[@Mir_Teiwaz]

I really wish FFXIV would tell new players that side quests are mostly meant for expanded lore information or leveling alt jobs. You can mostly stick to the main story for your main job.

[@C9Kreal]

Game looks like trash lmao holy moly

[@michaelmercer9469]

Tbh, I feel like the community is the biggest reason new players don't stick around. There's only so much "18+ nightclub featuring DJ's Cleavage and College Dropout, come get your freak on!" spam in the main cities your average individual can tolerate.

[@nexeus7302]

@@michaelmercer9469 We had those when the game had 200k+ players. This hasn't changed at all as RP scenes is huge, in every MMO, and FFXIV isn't an exception. If you gonna judge a game solely because of this you're delusional. FFXIV has this trend; you like it, or don't, and if you don't you leave - simple as that. This game has huge lore and story that isn't for everyone. There's a reason why FFXIV is N1 MMO atm, and no, isn't because of those RP dingleberries, because the game is good and it has so much to offer.

[@nexeus7302]

@@C9Kreal I said the same thing 9 years ago, and still eating my words since 9 years. Don't judge a game because of the look. You will look foolish, like you do now.

[@michaelmercer9469]

@@nexeus7302 been here since Heavensward, and no, we did not always have this problem. It wasn't until Shadowbringers that the RP scene in this game became the cancer it is today. Yes, all MMOs have an RP scene, and most of them have an eRP scene as well to some degree, but there's not a single other MMO out there right now where the community is so unabashed about shoving their RP in everyone else's face.

[@maniacmatt7340]

Ff14 is 5 jrpgs in a trench coat. Very fun, but you'll be watching a lot.

[@harrylane4]

And the most recent two expansions, two of the most beloved, are the most cutscene-heavy expansions in the entire game. We love our cutscenes in ff14.

[@StormBurrito]

​@@harrylane4i wish they'd implement story skips for the most recent expansions. I had my friend sit down and do the whole endwalker story for me so i didnt have to sit through it. I play the game just for the raids and i wish they'd save players like me some of the trouble since clearing the massive amount of story they put out can take up so much time, but the fact that i have to pay to skip anything is really annoying considering how many hundreds of hours a new character needs invested into it to catch up.

[@the0s0ph1st]

I think it was revealed in the latest Fanfest in Vegas that they'll add a new option to start the game in a later expansion (I think it's Shadowbringers) come Dawntrail. Don't qoute me on that though.

[@StormBurrito]

@@the0s0ph1st that would be incredible it true

[@normalmighty]

@@StormBurrito The didn't announce anything solid, and I wouldn't expect anything in 7.0. Rather, Yoshi P said that they've been laying the groundwork so that later down the line they can allow new players to start at 6.1 without being lost or confused. You can see this with things like the unending codex, which is given to you at the start of 6.1 and gradually adds background lore entries for characters, places and events as the come up, so that if you didn't play through that part of the story you can get a TLDR summary.

[@howdoesonename7090]

As someone who has played WoW since vanilla (aka classic), I agree that the new player experience is incredibly confusing once you leave exile's reach. Sadly it comes from the sheer amount of expansion packs WoW has had. It used to be you had to level through each of them in order, but it got to the point where levelling took so long that they had to condense it down to be possible to level through just one expansion's content. There is a mechanic that unlocks once you get to level 60 that lets you level other characters through a different expansion to BFA, but I honestly think this should unlock immediately for any new character. Also the rule of thumb with WoW is that the most recent expansion is end-game content, so Dragonflight is only available from level 60+. However, when the next expansion comes out it's been stated that Dragonflight will become the new default levelling zone for new players instead of BFA, which I think is better as it's more about exploration and learning about important lore characters than fighting a war where you're instantly the great champion of your faction. (Also the trading post isn't the microtransaction shop (yet. There's some drama over a recent 'bundle' that included some of the currency) - it's earned via in-game tasks)

[@chossachgameplay3840]

they should do the same way as ESO when you have your tutorial zone and then ask you what zone you want to start it. that way if you want to story from start to finish you should pick one of the classic starting zones. otherwise pick one of the expension zone leveling zones.

[@jslaughter95]

they *do* do that, the problem he's referring to is that for new players it forces you into the latest expansion story just before the new expansion, AKA the current expansion is Dragonflight, so brand new players will play through the Shadowlands story. It can be a little jarring with being thrown into that story without knowing who any of the major players are, but at the same time it also helps to some degree in keeping new players current with the story@@chossachgameplay3840

[@beasthunt]

I started back at WoW a week ago. Yes, it's confusing coming back. The main quest for older content no longer exist and that's criminal, imo. I left during legion and I have no clue about any of it anymore, but Dragonflight is pretty dern fantastic. Even Chromie-time lasted for a few main quest in Draenor and then stopped....lol.

[@AD-ro6yp]

@@chossachgameplay3840 It literally is like that. You go talk to chromie and select the time you want to play.

[@lad4830]

They should've kept it in order. New level 1 character should be able to go anywhere from vanilla all the way to shadowlands (or DF if they bought expo), but there would be only one campaign that if your would've decided to do before doing side quests it would take you through all expansions in order. That way you could tell a newcomer to WoW to follow the main campaign and when he is done he can go back to do the side quests that would further expand the knowledge of the world.

[@jessie1078]

GW2 is the only other mmorpg besides osrs that has really hooked me. Still find myself going back to it sometimes :)

[@TwelveTables]

I agree. There is so much to do in gw2 that it's actual insane what's there for the game. Everything gives you experience and exploring what seems cool at the moment is how you level. Honestly, the hardest thing to learn in gw2 is the map specific currencies and you don't even deal with that till you get past the core game.

[@draenei]

gw2 combat felt clunky and graphics are meh, personally, i have like 3k hours on wow but FFXIV is the gold

[@ZXChris93]

It has insane value too. The only thing in GW2 you have to directly pay for is the expansion. Everything in the "Cash Shop" you can technically buy with ingame gold, the Living World season areas and story is free if you log in even once during it's introduction, which is a couple of months at a time. When the new expansion cycle was announced, afaik not that many people were upset we'd be paying more for content, considering how little people had to spend for the most part for the last decade.

[@draenei]

@@ZXChris93 im sure its a great game but it just doesnt appeal to me :/

[@Royal.Grand.Majesty]

Completely Agree.

[@ElysianAura]

I think I'd love to see another triple head to head, maybe RuneScape 3, Elder Scrolls Online and something else?

[@guitarbass22]

Star Wars The Old Republic, maybe?

[@Neetru]

Wizard101

[@ZenataUSA]

gw2

[@matthijs2981]

What about the harry potter thing

[@ksfjcu]

Path of exile!

[@greywitchleila]

Longtime FFXIV player here. One thing I'll say is that you do NOT have to do every yellow quest. That's how you get burnout. This isn't like WoW where doing quests is the main way to progress where the goal is to end up raiding. You get more than enough experience doing MSQ and your job quests. As for the text dumps? Idk if anyone actually reads them. And as for complaints about VA, you have to realize that section of the game was made in less than 2 years after the utter failure that was 1.0. It's a miracle that FFXIV 2.0 ended up in as good a state as it did. As you get further in expansions you will get more VA and more impressive cutscenes, but the earlier stuff was made under much different conditions than anything more recent.

[@litchtheshinigami8936]

this.. i'm relatively new and apart from bigger storybeats i really didn't care for most of the early story ahah. the big bad guy fight was interesting.. now i'm in the part after that and i'm just crying cuz i want the interesting part ahah

[@nayshine7875]

I’ve noticed that as a newer FFXIV player. All my pals have been playing for a while and they’ve just kept telling me to get through realm reborn and I thought it was gonna be another game where “it gets better at hour 100 I swear bro” but it actually does get better surprisingly

[@lithrean739]

Came into the comments to say exactly this, so just giving this a thumbs up instead!

[@jaydunna2645]

"This isn't like WoW where doing quests is the main way to progress where the goal is to end up raiding." what? lol

[@pawkeshup]

Also, you have to account for the fact that the early quests were meant for both returning 1.0 players and new players, so they really had a rough go trying to put it all together. They've worked on it a lot over the years because they don't want to just remove it and redo it like other games, but I really think they should. It's the weakest part of the game by far.

[@kraftyk4162]

A lot of the complaints on FFXIV are fixed far later in the game. They added a lot more voiced cutscenes and made new mechanics more fun than a text bubble. I do think they should go back and tweak a lot of the new player experience, though, because it is largely outdated.

[@Krunkeridleios]

That's the main problem with final fantasy tbh, Everyone just say it's fixed later in the game.

[@loki210]

@@Krunkeridleios I mean, not that that itsn't a legitimate design problem, because it absolutely is, but at least with FFXIV it actually is true and not just the playerbase huffing copium about a broken game.

[@tomwallen7271]

That's great for the existing playerbase, but it's never fun for new players to hear "Don't worry, it gets good after the first 200 hours."

[@kujaa1831]

@@tomwallen7271 Exactly, I want to believe that the game does get better after ARR but I've alrdy sunk over a hundred hours into that first bit. Just reached heavensward and I don't even have the motivation nor energy to continue anymore lol.

[@I8one2Many]

​@@tomwallen7271you need to play a support class and you can get pretty far pretty quickly. The fashion/crafting is great in ffxiv.

[@Avohaj]

Actually that "microtransaction shop" in WoW that a quest told you about, isn't (yet) a microtransaction shop, it's more like a (free/included) battle pass system where you do certain activities in the game and earn currency to buy pretty things. It's actually a pretty good non-predatory system which would be really great if it didn't compete with an actual microtransaction shop that also exists.

[@Wolfstorm701]

Did he mistake the Trading Post for a microtransaction shop?

[@hitmandoggymr47]

@@Wolfstorm701 yes

[@atomicbiff]

This comment needs more views. Trading post is a really cool system that’s an anti micro transaction shop

[@SwitchTalkChannel]

Without looking into it, I'm going to guess that it is predatory, since you used the term 'battle pass'. Either you're using the wrong term, or it's predatory. There's no such thing as a healthy 'battle pass' system. By their very nature, they are designed by experts to force you to play 24/7, regardless of it being mtx or not (which it often is, of course). (Also, as you said: since there is mtx in the game, everything else is rendered moot.) I now refuse to play games that are pay-to-win or even have mtx really of any kind. If they do, I play the free version. If there isn't a free version, or the free version itself is entirely built around pay-to-play features (such as Warframe), then I'll simply not play and find another game. To quote Asmongold on such issues: 'Don't play games you hate and feed into systems you disagree with. Don't spend money on it. Don't play it. Quit.'

[@atomicbiff]

“Without looking at it” sums it up perfectly. The game costs 15$ a month no matter what you wanna do in it. 😂🤡

[@Quiiescent]

Just wanna say - super high quality video. Love your tone, delivery, editing, pacing. Independent of the topic, I think you’re doing great stylistically. Hope you’re able to keep making videos and you continue to get traction :)

[@Savoritas]

I never understood why you'd build gameplay investment through the amount of buttons to press instead of making those buttons fun to use in the first place. Guildwars 2s done a great job on that.

[@AsheOfAx]

I’m so proud of Idyl! He’s gone from copying J1mmy to copying Josh Strife Hayes! /s

[@srsethalot1973]

I'm dead XD

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Copying success is the best way to make success.

[@martinpadilla5224]

​@@JohnFromAccountingalso the best way to become unremarkable...

[@WolfmanXD]

"you'll never encounter someone who looks like you." Me who has found an npc in endwalker that looks exactly like my character - 👀

[@max7971]

Gorillion identical miqotes be like:

[@Dropsey818]

it just works

[@cattysplat]

There's only a handful of faces for each race. If you really want to be unique, pick an unpopular race like Elezen, Roga, Hroth or Lala.

[@Voxrar]

FFXIV has always been stated as, and holds true to this "It is a Final Fantasy game first, and an MMO second."

[@Emptylord]

@25:55 Pretty certain that's a screenshot of the Trading Post, which is currently a free-to-play Battle Pass-like system. Those are rewards you can buy from a rotating selection using a currency you earn by playing the game - essentially like if your Final Fantasy achievements dropped a currency you could spend on cosmetics. It probably says something about the quest you did that you came away thinking it was a premium storefront.

[@assboi]

Give this video a few months and it will be factually correct. They're already flirting with the idea of monetising the Trade Post (the Medivh set from July, the two sets from August, the straight up selling one time 200tenders in August)

[@icannotbeseen]

@@assboi yep there's no way the trading post won't be a full-on cosmetic cash shop by the end of the year. you'll get the first few tenders for free to get you hooked (I mean, I logged into retail for the first time since castle nathria and got three mounts from there. the fuck. it's so jarring when you come from wotlk where the only cool mounts probably go to the raid lead first and then you never do yogg+0 again or they're attached to something like immortal where 24 people have to grasp how to walk in a slightly curved line so you can get the stupid achievement)

[@treeaboo]

@@icannotbeseenHonestly doing Yogg+0 every week, rolling the mount and winning with a 100 is how it should be. Especially if you're doing Ulduar in Phase 3. Not sure what guilds can't do Yogg+0 at this point, we were doing it with 1 tank for months until he had to quit, then were doing it without a raid lead and with 2 new tanks that hadn't done 0 lights before, all in Phase 2 and we're not exactly tryhard. You're right about the tenders, no way there won't be increasingly more ways to buy them for real money on the shop, even if it is in combination with other shop purchases.

[@Dropsey818]

@@assboi honestly why would they amalgamate the actual shop into the trading post, the trading post is stuff you earn in game, the mediv set was in the shop NOT the trading post, there is literally no news about items in the trading post costing real money, you can farm gold in wow very easy and convert that into your local currency on your blizz account which is cool, i paid for my Diablo 4 with my wow gold, people who hate on the shop are usually mount collectors, they are mad they cant get the mount achievs without buying mounts from the shop to complete achievs,

[@fissionphoenix4995]

Old School and RS3 are both available on the Jagex launcher really easily but that's assuming you want to create a jagex account first... which I assume is actually going to be the preferred option moving forward as it's (supposedly) better account security.

[@Grog]

As a veteran OSRS player I just noticed this the other day 😅

[@kelseycochrane3103]

i switched over with no real issues. the authenticator is fucking annoying though.@@Grog

[@LilacMonarch]

iirc they said they're going to soon make it mandatory

[@MagiaErebea028]

Yep all my characters for both games right there in the little drop down window it’s great

[@Wishkeyn]

As a new player I don't see why you wouldn't start with a jagex account. As an older player I definitely felt very hesitant to make one, but did eventually. And well its a lot more covenient especially when playing both of them at the same time.

[@Dominik-K]

Amazing video, loved the production and a your points on how the onboarding experience is still something that can be made better

[@thatrandomguy12123]

As a hardcore FFXIV fan, I will say that your ability to enjoy it will change based on what you're wanting from it. Final Fantasy XIV is an MMO, but it was designed to be a Final Fantasy game first, and MMO second, so a lot of the weirdness you got from how the story is presented might be due to that since the storytelling style of the average MMO and the average JRPG are so different.

[@RickNasty42069YOLO]

Nah the game is just shit.

[@poisonated7467]

That's arguably a problem. MMORPGs weren't designed to be some other game first. Nor were they meant to be main story driven either. It's where modern MMOs differ from older MMORPGs. MMOs lost the RPG. In FFXIV, you don't feel like an adventurer making your way in the world. You feel like the main character saving a planet that you're forced to care about because.... its a main quest??? It simply just doesn't work well in the genre. The world needs to be the main character and you're experiencing it the way your character would along with friends you begin with or create along the way. That's an RPG. Which, again, FFXIV is just an MMO, not an MMORPG.

[@thatrandomguy12123]

@@poisonated7467 I completely disagree. FFXIV being an RPG first is the reason why it's become as loved as it is today. Modern MMOs losing the RPG is arguably the reason why so many fall off before they can even hit their stride, because far too many focus on being massively multiplayer before being an enjoyable game, while FFXIV went the opposite route. Just because it's not traditional for a MMORPG to be main story driven doesn't mean that it's a bad route to take, FFXIV is proof of that considering it is currently the most played MMO on the market right now. While I can understand the want to just be "another adventuter", the FFXIV devs clearly understood that so many other MMOs go that route, while rarely do they do the opposite. If you want to be just another adventurer making their way, then there's 50 MMOs you could play instead. It also doesn't ask that you care about the main quest just because it's the main quest. You care because of the characters, which often have as much depth as you'll get in a fullscale single-player experience, with characters like Emet-Selch and Zenos genuinely being some of the most well-written antagonists I've ever wanted to punch.

[@poisonated7467]

@@thatrandomguy12123I dont disagree that FFXIV is very popular, but tbf, it's popular among modern MMO gamers who haven't played anything but the WoW clone. FFXIV is a WoW clone. The design and philosophy behind both are basically identical or as close as can be. While there are 50 other MMOs that don't take the MSQ, you still dont feel like an adventurer for multiple other reasons. Caring about the MSQ because of the characters is no different from caring about the MSQ because it's the MSQ IN THE BEGINNING. Why should I care about those characters? Because they're in the MSQ. My character has no real other reason, in the beginning, to care. They aren't my party members like a D&D campaign, or an oldschool MMORPG dungeon. They aren't my guildmates either. Equating the MSQ and it's characters to a "fullscale single-player experience" is the problem. It's the problem with all modern MMOs. They are trying to force a single-player experience in a genre where it fundamentally doesn't fit. If you want a solo style game, that's what single-player RPGs are for. MMORPGs are about very minimal solo activity, lots of group activity, socializing within said group, class, zone, guild, race, alignment, etc., and about having the world itself be the main character that you experience through all the systems of the game with others at least vaguely with them if not directly with them. Solo play is causing a lot of the problems within modern MMOs.

[@thatrandomguy12123]

@@poisonated7467 Alright, so I find a few issues with your argument. First, the argument that it's only popular with people who haven't played WoW is asinine beyond belief, considering that it recieved and still enjoys a massive surge of players from the WoW exodus. Hell, most of the biggest FFXIV content creators on this platform are former WoW players who grew disillusioned with Blizzard and their game. FFXIV being a WoW clone holds about as much water as WoW being a Runescape clone, or Runescape being a Neverwinter Nights clone, the only real similarity between them being that they're all MMORPGs. I don't see how caring about the characters in the MSQ is some backwards thing considering that's how literally every story ever written was. You keep talking about how solo play is causing problems in MMOs, yet you fail to actually bring a single problem into the conversation. It honestly seems like you just have a "different = bad" mentality. If you want a MMORPG that has "very minimal solo activity, lots of group activity, socializing within said group, class, zone, guild, race, alignment, etc. and about having the world itself be the main character" then go and play one like WoW or Runescape, clearly FFXIV isn't for you.

[@CianaCorto]

FFXIV is easy to get into imo. Even for solo players. But the early game gameplay is boring because the button bloat from later expansions was cut down, which means early game has very few buttons now.

[@normalmighty]

In my experience it's actually a lot harder to get players from other mmos into the game than it is casual players who don't play many games at all. Experience players from other mmos have to unlearn a lot of things they take for granted, like mashing past the story to get to the "real game" for example.

[@skyesfury8511]

@@normalmighty You can skip through the story in FFXIV just like you can in any MMO. Not sure what you're referring to that needs to be unlearned. The same basic mechanics are in FFXIV that are in WoW, Rift, GW2, ESO, and most other MMOs.

[@ReticentLily]

​​@@skyesfury8511"skipping through the story" in ff14 still involves probably 50+ hours of cutscene skipping and running from dialog point a to dialog point b to reach endgame, which is a biiiit different from other mmos. For instance, I started playing DFO a few days ago because of a friend, and due to an ongoing event I had a max level character in like 3 hours running through a list of dungeons oneshotting everything solo. I've been told that without the event it's a similar gameplay experience, just takes longer due to FP systems and the games active encouragement of many alts as a result.

[@Sweetguy1821]

I made it to level 50 in FF, it always felt like a chore to play. Just couldn't get into it.

[@AneirinRPG]

​@@Sweetguy1821lvl 50 wow your right at that sweet spot to most people who end up not liking the game don't get to your lvl I respect that

[@TheTolnoc]

Guild Wars 2 is pretty good. It's going through a light rough patch in balance, but that's end game, raid stuff. Big, beautiful world, large story, lots of old content that's still relevant because they use horizontal progression instead of a constant gear grind.

[@wiggen2149]

My personal favorite on-boarding was Dungeon and Dragons Online (DDO). A brief tutorial dungeon where you assist a higher level party, putting you on an island that has been cut off from the mainland by a dragon. Only new accounts are seen on the island, you can group or run solo. After completing a questline, culminating in helping that same group defeat the dragon, you enter the "true" version of the island that anyone can travel to, now reconnected to the mainland. A key part is that you can skip the questline if you are experience, allowing you to join the game directly, but can still do the quests.

[@Vengerin]

Also, there are a lot of free quests, Standing stones made free a bunch of new classes and races, they give codes to get most of the paid adventures packs very often and some of the big expansions, you can unlock a ton of shit playing (store points, new races, new classes, veteran level...) and while the years weight heavy on the graphic engine, the mechanics, classes, dungeons and raids compensate it. Also events are really fun like Halloween, Risia, Mimic hunt, the kobolds one... One of my favorites mmos, always installed on my pc and I'm always tackling new content. Like soon the Vecna mini-expansion.

[@danielruivocosta6417]

Maaan, I would love to see you doing this tipe of video for other MMOs, like Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online and EVE Online. It would be nice to see if the less know MMOs have a better experience for new players then those famous ones. Great video!

[@TheSingingBUn]

now, as a ff14 player, I feel like this is the sort of game you ought to treat less like an open-world mmo and more like an rpg in an mmo system. Because the content is the main story quest rather than endgame, the game pace is slower at the start, and your character progress follows along your story journey. side note: if you think Gridania is confusing, try heading over to Ul-dah. that's a freaking maze right there xD

[@kmeanxneth]

Yoshi-P did said ff14 is a Final Fantasy game first and MMO second. (Final Fantasy games are story heavy single player RPG)

[@Brandon-bc1fz]

I remember getting lost at least 5 times.

[@TheDigimonXYZ]

Why are people keep parroting this stuff. Rpg with MMO gameplay and systems is trash Rpg. Compare ff14 game play to other ff games, it's day and night

[@TheSingingBUn]

@@TheDigimonXYZ you are answering to a month old comment. The mentality is not "parroting" when people unanimously agree on the sentiment

[@Caterpillar]

@@kmeanxneth definitely not a game to try if you want a more mmo experience

[@chasing1ogic]

I love the subtle joke with the empty Golden Gnome stand in the background.

[@Ewwch]

The beginning of FFXIV is a drag for new people, especially with people with low attention spans lol. It was hard for me to go through A Realm Reborn but hearing all the FFXIV fans saying amazing things about Shadowbringers, it helped me push through the game. I was able to set myself a goal to reach Shadowbringers which allowed me to experience one of the grandest stories of all time.

[@rancorusia]

taking your word for it, just started Heavensward and hate these maps with a passion lol

[@DC-sh6xk]

Shoot once Heavensward started (and even halfway through a RRB) the story got way better. I mean I get the boring start, they have to lay the ground work of so much stuff 😅

[@cassidyreid5059]

;-; I've tried so many times, but I couldn't keep my interest! Maybe one day... haha

[@chillhour6155]

How do you get passed the bad voice acting and ugly character model's interactions ?

[@CraigDurand-vb4xe]

What is destroying MMOs is mid maxing everything! Gaming isn't about fun anymore it's all about how far you can push your character to the max.

[@aspenture1087]

Yeah a lot of people can’t understand the balance between fun and midmaxing. You can midmax while having fun without overdoing it and burning yourself out. People also need to chill out more when other players make mistakes. Yes it’s frustrating, yes it can cause wipes and waste time but just try explaining to them whats killing them/the group without being toxic. People are so toxic towards new players it really sucks. Especially in low keys or levelling dungeons and you’re getting mad at people because of wipes.

[@Soumein]

Sorry, 'mid' maxing? I'm not sure if that's a misspelling of min-maxing, or if it's a genuinely new term.

[@Telepath100]

Hold up, is 9Rain short or is Idyl actually a giant?

[@JazzOfTheStinson]

Yes

[@rushingdown]

Yep

[@AtsAreStupid]

Both

[@timothyvalvo900]

Is 9Rain code bullet?

[@lokkiirl4793]

9rain radiates 5 foot energy

[@kennysalty6019]

Runescape's Adventure Path System is honestly great, and the only thing I can immediately think of for it to do is guide you along some of the beginner quests, like a Quester Path. Have it take players through some of the original quests from launch, Start with Cooks Assistant and cap it off with Demon Slayer since that's a bigger deal of a quest.

[@Boogerdick69]

You mean dragon slayer? Demon slayer literally is nothing

[@kennysalty6019]

@@Boogerdick69 Considering it's supposed to be for brand new players, capping it off at slaying an ancient demon that intends to level a city, regardless of how easy it is, seems like a great starting point, and doing the other five quests that came out first alongside Demon Slayer would show new players many of the different things they can expect from quests. From the fetch-y type stuff of Cooks Assistant and Restless Ghost, to the more story and dialogue based quests like Romeo and Juliet, and the more combat and boss focused quests like Demon Slayer. It would really show everything that makes a runescape quest over-all, as well as making sure the player knows that quests vary greatly in how big, or small, they are.

[@Dyers69]

@@Boogerdick69 Considering the other paths cap out at 20 something that recommends 15 combat lvl seems more appropriate than Dragon Slayer which recommends lvl 45.

[@Boogerdick69]

@@kennysalty6019 like you said "start" the original comment say "cap it off" meaning end it. Needs to be capped off with dragon slayer an started with demon slayer

[@JustSilen]

@@Boogerdick69 Unless you are trolling hard, you're missing the point. The adventure path system is a built-in tutorial and for a quest path to "end" at demon slayer would be perfectly reasonable. The other paths "end" relatively early on as well, because the paths are a sort of tutorial in the first place, they are not meant to hold your hand throughout the entire game, they are an introduction to the variety of things you can do in oldschool runescape. If you "end" the path with dragon slayer, the hardest free-to-play quest there is with highest requirements, you're not doing a tutorial, you're doing a full guide on how to play the game. Why not "cap it off" with theatre of blood at that point eh? Or maybe Tombs of Amascut? Desert treasure 2? A tutorial guide is for new players and the rest should be left up to player exploration, not hand holding. Besides, that's what the activity advisor is for, it continues recommending quests all the way to late-game, because it's a very soft suggestion for people who feel lost.

[@VerboseSparrow]

Hearing "not needing to pay anything extra to create new characters" really reminded me about how weird runescape is in that way

[@hauddubius3706]

True, then again, RuneScape is classless so you're not locked into being a mage or an archer or a warrior. And you can change your appearance any time you like just by going to the makeover mage. So really the only time you'd want to make a new character is try one or more of the ironman modes. Whereas WoW locks you into the class, and iirc also locks in your appearance so change to a different class you'll need to create a new character. But that is offset by not having to pay extra for that new character.

[@poplicker4]

good point@@hauddubius3706

[@joshuahng1]

Gw2 is the only one on a positive trending on graph

[@avagardra]

it's very weird how mmo retention seemed so much higher back in the day when they deffinitely were more arcane. i think back then the incentive to play just to hang out was higher, and now new players sort of have the sword of Damocles over their head, expecting them to understand enough to raid someday.

[@cynthiahembree3957]

Because back in the day we didn't have social media. You don't need to play an MMO to socialize with people online anymore.

[@normalmighty]

@@cynthiahembree3957 Yeah, I had spent weeks playing runescape back in the day without doing any content besides killing cows in Lumbridge. 90% of the time was spent on the novelty of seeing and interacting with real people in the game.

[@Melodeath00]

@@cynthiahembree3957That's just not true. We had all kinds of online chat rooms and things like multiplayer flash games with integrated chats way before WoW or RS. Ventrilo and Teamspeak were a thing. MSN was also huuuuuge all throughout the 2000s until it eventually was made obsolete by the Facebook chat function (which was functionally worse than MSN in every way possible).

[@cynthiahembree3957]

@@Melodeath00 Except none of these were mainstream. Facebook, Instagram and Twitter hadn't been created yet. And those chatrooms you mentioned weren't used by a lot of people outside of gaming. It was incredibly niche. So my statement still stands social media wasn't mainstream and accessible to everyone.

[@Melodeath00]

@@cynthiahembree3957 MSN wasn't any more obscure in 2002 than Facebook was in 2012. It was used by everybody, including the hardcore anti-nerds and tech illiterates. Was probably different for the older generations and in other places of the world, but for my generation growing up back then (born 92 in rural Norway), it sure was the case. Your memory of the mid 2000s sounds more like the mid-late 90s to me.

[@reaxetion6413]

*Idyl complains about FF cutscenes* Me: "First Final Fantasy game? It'll grow on ya"

[@badcheese1]

Great video! I’d love to see more mmos represented in maybe a follow up video. My personal recommendation is a mmo called lost ark- they are actively making changes to the new player experience and I’d love to see a fresh look from a new player

[@flamingosalad3541]

To expand on your FFXIV portion, the tutorial for FFXIV honestly ends at about Lv.15. That will send you into a instance to learn the basics of combat and how to use your kit and then send you into your first dungeon. Its pretty long winded yeah there are a lot of cutscenes but that's just what a final fantasy game is. Heavy story driven narratives that build up and treat you as the adventure that happens to be available until you make a name for yourself.

[@trashtef]

cringe ff14 weeb player

[@VideoAggression]

ff14's narrative is nothing like the narrative in any other game in the series. don't equate them. ff14 drags and drags more than any game i've ever seen. 90% of dialogue is people saying nothing and 50% of movement in cutscenes is emotes, staring, and slow camera panning.

[@Gigi-zr6hp]

@@VideoAggression that only applies to 1.0 which is a remake of the disaster of the launch version FFXIV. The next expansions are great. If you don't like JRPG tropes then stick with Western ones like WoW , GW2

[@huntrokilla]

I did not like how I was locked into an over hour Que for dps for a required dungeon in the story early game

[@TheLucidChiba]

​@@huntrokillacurse of dps sadly

[@iiarskii]

2 years ago when I started playing Osrs for the first time the adventure paths is exactly what got me to understand the game perfectly now 2 years later and I have about 1000 hours in the game and I’m still going

[@MK_ULTRA420]

As a pretend Zamorak Follower, I give new players just enough free stuff and gp to keep them playing long enough for the addiction to set in ;)

[@RhoninWolf]

I played WoW for over 12 years and FFXIV for just over 3. What I prefer about FFXIV is how the game requires dungeons that teach you more complex mechanics so by the time you hit max level, you have a general idea of how to play at a passable level. WoW doesn't require it, so you can wind up with people at max level that have no idea what they are doing. I was an officer in a guild and I can't remember how many times I had to teach people very, very basic things.

[@selenang2006]

i have always said, wow is simply braindead ilevels. You can don the best gear in ffxiv and not sure of any mechanics, you WILL be kissing the floor.

[@flameknightdragon]

@@selenang2006 Also unlike WoW FF14 does not have addons to tell you how to do bosses. you have to learn and memorize stuff on your own.

[@max7971]

@@selenang2006 you never raided in wow, don’t you?

[@max7971]

It doesn’t tho? Orange circles? Sure, any mob in the over world does that, so you know it by that time. Orange arrows? No. Tank busters? No. Not to mention dungeon specific mechanics, like stabby untargetable mobs in one of the lvl 50 dungeons to name an example. In contrast every dungeon in wow has a journal entry that explains what each boss mechanic does. I’m really curious what “basic things” you were teaching these new players. Care to elaborate?

[@RhoninWolf]

@@max7971 I was an officer in a raid guild back in WotLK. That was before the dungeon journal which came in Firelands raid tier. Some of the basic things I had to teach people was keybinding, turning with the mouse and not the keyboard, and their class rotation. I consider that to be very basic. Onto the FFXIV examples, I was referring to what is required through the MSQ. The tonberry dungeon you mentioned is not required for the MSQ. Tank busters, arrows, and many other mechanics are in required MSQ dungeons and trials. But I will stand by the fact, that by seeing the mechanic as telegraphed is far better than reading a boss mechanic in a journal.

[@rigzgx]

The beautiful thing about games like FF14 is that they are modular. The video covers a truth topic, but the player experience is overwhelming when they try to take in everything all at the same time. Even the most experienced player usually does not "do everything". Square Enix did a very unique approach that made this game pull forward from the others in the new player experience but breaking the game down into centric interests that pull the experiences down to singular developments. Story, crafting, PVP, social development, basic material and combat grinds with their own purpose, dungeon crawling, sub combat systems, job/class stories, housing, player events, raiding. Its quite impressive. Great video though, and you speak a lot of facts from the new experience.

[@whydidtheychangemyname]

"A bad tutorial can legitimately be worse than no tutorial at all" Not an MMO, but... looking at you, League of Legends...

[@Shteven]

19:16 Not to the extent you did, but I also had this issue in Lost Arc, there are some places which are so outright confusing that trying to decipher where you're supposed to go takes legit 5 minutes of staring at the map and trying to figure out which path actually takes you to where you want to go. Thankfully this only happened in a few areas and wasn't a constant struggle.

[@flameknightdragon]

WoW's biggest issue is starting people in BFA. not only is it just assumed that the PC was one of the people in the campions of Azeroth aka the heroes that have beaten all the big bads in WoW. but they cut out the prepatch event that started the war aka the horde was at peace with the alliance until they decided to make the night elves an almost extinct people and literally burned their home to the ground. This removed all the context from that expansions plot and honestly it drops people into what is considered the worst era Of WoW's story telling.

[@deckofcardboard]

Blizzard can't make a smooth experience for new players. They're a company that cares so little for storytelling that they give their old players PTSD from the previous expansion "Shadowlands" and while the game design department apologizes the writers joke about forgetting major unresolved plot points {"what sword?"}. Maybe they can joke AFTER they fix things.

[@icannotbeseen]

@deckofcardboard hey at least they pretend shadowlands doesn't exist and send new people to BfA instead!

[@icannotbeseen]

they should probably add a fresh new player experience to every expansion that ties *directly* into the expansion with nothing before it. make up a bit of story why you, the newbie, is suddenly important. I mean, that would require them to start new people (at least the first character) on a higher level and introduce skills like they do with DKs for example to not completely overwhelm people but also make it possible to level to max in current content. further characters could start at level 1. I mean, is that weird? probably? but that way they can still experience the old stuff without having to intentionally do, dunno, Durotar on a level 70 character which really only achievement hunters would want to do. (ie completely devalue old zones) it's probably a really dumb idea but wow's levelling is so messed up I couldn't even begin to figure out a proper fix to the new player problem without starting world development from scratch. For the record, BfA is not worse than Shadowlands. it would be so messed up to send people THERE first.

[@flameknightdragon]

@@icannotbeseen issue is they are not pretending shadowlands never happened. Heck the green dragon flight's has major parts dealing with shadowlands.

[@flameknightdragon]

@@icannotbeseen they really should have made exile's reach not tied into BFA. make is to at the end of it you do take out a major threat and save not general or other high ranking leader from this threat. that would be a good way to do the "heroes" and "champion" thing, and combed BFA and SL when i was making that statement. Legion should have been when the faction war nonsense ended. really going from legion to dragon flight would have been narratively better then the stupid faction war and afterlife BS.

[@CErra310]

In FF14 you unlock the ability to learn other classes by completing a quest, at the end of which the game tells you that you can learn other classes now. You can then unlock those classes through quests which grant a starter weapon. In WoW, that "microtransaction" shop is for an in-game currency that cannot be obtained with real money

[@theia.t]

We need more vids like this with another set of mmos, personally would love to see GW2 somewhere there. Awesome work on this video too.

[@harrylane4]

As someone whose favorite game of all time is ff14… yeah, the first 10 hours of the game are rough and could use a serious overhaul. They made some changes to that first expansion, but they should have focused on cutting down those first 15 levels or so, up to the first dungeon. Also yeah, gridania is incredibly confusing, that’s a pretty common issue and the fact that those cities were designed to be one continuous location and then got split in 2 later, it is incredibly difficult to learn your way around. I continued to get lost in Limsa Lominsa for a long, long time. Game isn’t perfect, but I love it stoll

[@Maybe_Tom_Cruise]

FF14 is fantastic. Just the first couple minutes of this video made me want to play again. I haven't been on in years. I think it's time to hop back in. I agree that the beginning of the game was brutal, at least when I did it. Idk if it's the same now. It takes quite a long time to get through all the early fetch quests and get far enough in that you get to fun more complex combat and quests. I feel like there must be a lot of players that quit out during the boring early sections before it gets really fun.

[@harrylane4]

@@Maybe_Tom_Cruise ARR got an overhaul a few years ago, but it was mostly focused on trimming down those brutal 2.X patches. Most of the very early game stuff went entirely untouched. The game is in a decent state right now, the base story current expansion was really good, and wrapped up a lot of the plot, and they’re getting ready for 7.0 in the next year or so. Admittedly, I’m biased, but there’s ever a time to get back in and catch up, it’s now!

[@Maybe_Tom_Cruise]

@@harrylane4 Yeah, I've been out for quite a while. The last raids I remember doing were I think the savage Omega raids? I think the stormblood expansion was my last. I probably haven't been on since 2018. I didn't get bored as much as I just didn't have time to raid for a while, and that's what I really wanted to do, and after a while off, I never hopped back on. I have some more time now, though, and I'm pretty hyped to get back into now, though not gonna lie. 😂 I'm looking forward to trying out all the new classes and smashing through some new content.

[@AwesomeAim]

I still get lost in the main cities at times. Especially uldah. It makes me feel like a new player every time I'm scouring the map for where something is lol

[@freerice9595]

​@MrShmeaton My friend talked so highly of FF14 so I downloaded it and tried it for the first time maybe 6 months ago. I didn't make it past the intro cutscenes. I was so unbelievably bored out of my mind I Uninstalled the game after 30 minutes. I really don't care about lore or background or story arc etc. I just want to play an mmo. I want to grind. Achieve things. Be competitive. Make friends. I'm sure im one of many players who quit without even trying the game because of how awful the beginning was. I loved final fantasy tactics and ff 12 on ps2 but any ff I played newer than that I just can't get into.

[@matthewpoirier3564]

As a long-time FFXIV player, I understand the trouble that a lot of new players have getting into the game. It's a lot of cutscenes, a lot of info dump text, a lot of just feeling your way through things. But I don't feel it was out of ignorance of better options, only the availability of them. The company and game in general had been reeling from disaster and near-collapse, much like the Calamity shown in the game. So funding was limited, and they were pretty desperate to make a better game that still fit the feel of their classic story-driven Final Fantasy franchise. Voice acting the entirety of the story would have cost an exorbitant amount, not only in money but in time, so it relies heavily on text to fill in the less cinematic or prominent parts of the story. It can be very disconcerting for players with the 'get right into everything' mindset, but it also is good for gamers that love a good story. It's difficult for them to go back and revamp much of that early stuff to adjust it without taking away some of the vital opening foundations, and even then they'd need to get it approved before even making the attempt.

[@trashtef]

cringe ff14 weeb player

[@sparkymotive]

The community is the worst part of ffxiv

[@matus19971]

​@@sparkymotivedepends on the data centre and realm. I'm on Chaos and everything is great...apart from people on Moogle

[@niklass1641]

As a long time WoW player I tried FF during the "Great Migration" of WoW players into FF a couple years ago. I was so used to just flicking away text boxes without bothering to read anything that I realized I had no idea what was going on. I didn't play for very long though because the whole thing was just so... cutesee. Too many cute little characters with cute little voices acting... cute. Way too JRPG for me, but the gameplay was solid.

[@matus19971]

@@niklass1641 that's the thing going in not knowing how it works. I was aware so I read through it all and I can tell you the story is magnificent. There are themes so dark that WoW looks likr a bedtime stoeyfor children in comparison. There are themes of mutilation, corruption, rape even. I'm not gonna go into detaild but saying FF is too cute is wrong on so many levels. It's actually extremely serious and dark. I can't go into details cause spoilers but you get the idea. I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot and doing it properly, especially if you were still on the free trial but obviously I won't force anyone.

[@Nicholas7137]

I subscribed when you said the, "remember, im bald, use that agianst me" bit lmfao

[@devincook4263]

Should've done gw2, the most accessible mmo of all time to all player types

[@Royal.Grand.Majesty]

True

[@imamountainheadtoo]

THIS

[@Trollosauras]

Yeah but I can't get over the combat having like 10 buttons. I want more skills to use :/ am I just playing it wrong? I want to have like 15+ abilities to toggle between Edit: I've been playing wow for 3 weeks on and off. 33 fury warrior and I fucking love this game

[@Seattletyy93]

God of War 2 isn't an MMO dipstick. I'm telling every one you think God of War is an MMO. Hold on, I'm getting a text. Oh it's your parents. They've disowned you for using vague abbreviations that confuse people who aren't losers.

[@jozeflee5571]

@@Seattletyy93wtf are you even saying

[@kagamine14]

I totally agree with ffxiv and it’s tutorials probably needs more depth to it. For what it is, everything is there. Now asking a player to read??? At least in the US That’s a tall order. For example, the job quests for SAGE emphasizes the need to utilize one of its core mechanics, KARDIA. In the instances the npc will literally YELL AT YOU to put kardia on them, but people just black out and ignore the chat bubbles and chat text, leading to a lot of new sages forgetting to use the mechanic in raids. I think we just need better reading comprehension as a whole, but until then… idk maybe the instance should just straight out fail if you don’t do it. 😢 but it may also be a result of a clashing of Japanese and American cultures. Sometimes we just need to be handheld or else we’ll complain and yell, that’s the American way

[@AneirinRPG]

American burn 😆

[@Halicos93]

I'm from EU and I have the same problem as U.S I think ff14 is made for the Asian market in mind.

[@CJ-fn6hh]

I predict this channel will blow up. Your content is solid my guy and very well edited! Great video as always

[@nipple8676]

"just remember. I'm bald" that sold me on your channel instantly lmao, subbed and liked.

[@Madison-ur2qn]

You get told about the class switch mechanic a little later on in FFXIV. Most things in that game are gated through the MSQ (main story quest) like a single-player game. I think it’s around level 20 they tell you to visit other guilds and try other classes, and when you unlock that first new class, you are given the pop up on how it works. All you need to do is switch your weapon!

[@greywitchleila]

You get told after the level 10 job quest for the job you start out as.

[@MichaelPate-michaelkpate]

10 - you can switch to a different class 15 - you travel to the other cities, unlock the Hall of the Novice, and get the first 3 dungeons (or later if you have all the leveling buffs in place)

[@Anonymous-tp5qg]

Or save equipment loadouts on your character menu to automaticaly re-equip your last saved loadout.

[@SpartanWarrior76]

Only reason why I didn't stay with FF 14 is because I love housing in all mmos and I'm not playing lottery with housing. Seriously stupidest thing I have seen for such a huge and successful game. All housing should be available to everyone.

[@greywitchleila]

@@SpartanWarrior76 eh housing is pretty available nowadays, especially on my dc. like half the wards are empty.

[@NeflewitzInc]

I think it'd be interesting to see your take on starting as a new player in Everquest on Project 1999.

[@Melficzeero]

The trading post in wow actually isn't (yet) a micro transaction shop, the currency is purely earned through gameplay

[@VideoAggression]

they have already begun selling the currency in bundles. i can guarantee that is a test as companies like that always do. one day, they will sell it direct. the fomo nature of the trading post is set up too perfect not to sell it.

[@alistillwell1592]

I believe he is probably referring to wow retail and not classic.

[@SquareOFortune]

Excellent vid! I’d love to see your thoughts on ESO, which is as confusing as all the other MMO starting experiences, but feels a bit more cozy in some ways since it plays more similarly to a single-player western RPG. The hardest part is figuring out versions and playthrough order (which can be done anywhere you want, but some characters remember you if you play sequentially). The base game is free with Xbox game pass (but only on the console, unfortunately and not on PC), but at least it’s a one-time purchase for the base game or the latest expansion bundle and no monthly sub required to just play through it. I’ve only played for about 3 sessions total so don’t know anything about it tbh, but I’m curious if you’d feel the same about your starting experience as I did. I’ve played WoW off and on since vanilla, but didn’t “get into it” until 2016 when my friends invited me to level and raid with them and that whole experience hooked me. Every expansion was made as if it was going to possibly be the “last one ever made” (per the old dev’s quotes), so the new player experience is disjointed. FFXIV makes you play every expansion sequentially so that you know the same full story as every other player, but it takes a while to get through to reach end game and the latest expansion. WoW added a “choose your own adventure” feature in recent years so that you could fully level from 1 to the new expansion over the course of a single “old expansion” so that you’d have a full slice of that area’s story, but that’s still not a perfect “evergreen” solution. All signs point to Dragonflight becoming the defacto new player starting experience that hits the reset button on 20-year old disjointed storylines and expansions and will allow them to have newcomers experience the modern version of the game/graphics/mechanics with a more cohesive story. My hope is that new players are encouraged to start in DF (or are just put there) at level 1-instead of 58 like the current requirement-and are guided through the main quest chain for those zones before heading to the next expansion. Time will tell if they end up doing that when the 10th expansion hits next year. 🤞

[@ChrisWhiton]

I hope SNHU's game design program has improved since I was there. I was the first graduating class of that degree and it was almost entirely run by adjunct professors that had no actual experience in the industry. We learned to teach ourselves, which has been an invaluable skill - but I do still feel cheated by the lack of industry connections and lack of having any sort of advisor when it comes to actually moving into the industry post graduation. (I was very frankly surprised to see it advertised on KZbin lol)

[@morganm.8864]

The MMO that I play is Guild Wars 2, I would be curious to see your thoughts on its new player experience

[@danielclark6033]

Really fun and neat video :) I'd like to see your take on the new player experience in Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2 👍

[@NaturesBetter]

RuneScape has the best quest lines of any games ever. Some of the best content in the game, yet it is skipped by many as the game just never ends and will consume your life. But read through the quest stories! Very interesting stuff going on in Old School RuneScape!

[@Audio041194]

Maybe, they are cool the first time but as far as story goes, they are on par with Adventure Quest, which is okay but nothing stellar. WoW actually had better writing because it needed to. Best story telling in an mmo has to be SWTOR since it takes after one of the best RPG's ever launched.

[@eliascarlsson2624]

Or maybe the fact that the visuals looks it was one of the first ever made games

[@monke12354]

​​​@@Audio041194SWTOR is a heavily story driven mmo, it's not very fair to compare it to most others. WoW quest design is mostly garbage menial tasks, rarely with actual great writing. Writing mostly feels like filler aside from a few in every region, mostly those focused on the bigger plot. All quests up to 2007 in Runescape were mediocre writing, but half of them had decent worldbuilding and creative quest design. Especially given that most are all more like side stories making up the world. Newer quests from OSRS mostly have great worldbuilding, good writing, and good quest design aside from some very tedious puzzle solving.

[@shanescott3166]

​@@eliascarlsson2624you must not know what the early games actually used to look like.

[@DehydratedHumor]

One of the biggest benefits with FFXIV is that you get really invested in your character and you don't have to replay any of the story to try a new class. You can play every class and level every crafting class (they are full classes with rotations) on a single character.

[@wilt3569]

Although for a new player who wants to try endgame stuff, it bites since if you're someone who wants to do the current endgame its over 200 hours of story to grind through which turns off new players.

[@RyanWAFFELYoung]

@@wilt3569 I will never, ever, ever, ever, understand people who want to skip all of the game to get to the 'game'.

[@dirzz]

@@wilt3569 200 hours of story IS the game though.

[@diode_wow]

​@@RyanWAFFELYoungFFXIV is heavily story focused. A lot of people want to play a game, not sit through 45 minutes of cutscenes every 2 quests where you teleport to a nee place and talk to someone. Then you sometimes get combat, for like, 2 minutes before the next hour of teleport to talk to "x" person quest.

[@RyanWAFFELYoung]

@@diode_wow It's a Final Fantasy game first, and an MMO second, and it doesn't pretend to be otherwise. If new players bounce off it because they just want an instant level 90 character to grind the same dungeons over and over for 'reasons', then the system has worked, because this game isn't for them, and that's fine. Not everything has to cater to everyone all the time. Besides, the real endgame of FFXIV is FASHION!

[@mepluspie]

Would love to see you do this again with another batch of MMOs. It’d be fun to see Wizard101 in the bunch. And new world now that it isn’t as new.

[@tylerarnettay4144]

Yes I would love to see Wizard101 on this list

[@Audio041194]

Is that game actually still kicking? I never played it but had a friend that did.

[@mepluspie]

@@Audio041194 wizard101 still exists, it gets seasonal updates. some riddled in micro transactions, and some good content/QOL. No idea on new world, I’m on the same boat as you which is why I thought it’d be interesting since it fell off a cliff

[@Kris_Toffer]

I think youre the perfect person to review new player experience for skipping textboxes. Nobody really reads those.

[@Dropsey818]

he just needs to learn the difference between the in game shop and the trading post, because hes confusing it,

[@newspin2477]

Final fantasy's tutorial never ends really ends since they keep adding new features over time... but that very first time you get control of your character and have to talk to a questgiver is literally the only time in the game where you are actually blocked from leaving the area. If you can't get past the dialogue and quest reading at the start, the game might not be for you because the whole game is extremely story driven (and the voice acting doesn't get prevalent until later on). Also, the quest you get right from the start from "Mommy" is questline that takes you literally through the entire game. It definitely moves slow at the start. Typically if you don't wanna read the pop up tutorials, you can just ask people and they'll explain because the community is generally very positive towards new players. There's a lot in the game and different things unlock over time, but you can take your time learning the new systems as they are introduced... If you wanna try a new class, once you get past the first few quests, you can just visit the "guild" for that class and start the new class. I would say that the biggest thing that helps you get past the large barrier to entry in FFXIV is the community as soon as people know you are a new player trying the game for the first time they will shower you with offers to help you get started... WoW players are more likely to be openly hostile towards new players, and in Runescape, I can't really say but from my very limited exprience nobody even spoke to me once.

[@ignatiushazzard]

The runescape community absolutely fawns over new players. We love them 2 problems : very little of the veteran community exists in the free to play servers, and the game is so overrun by bots, which everyone is aware of, unless a new player is doing something wildly noticeable they would disappear in the crowd. I'm kind of exaggerating, but for real

[@AshAsmodeus]

I'd argue there is an actual end to the tutorial in FFXIV.... basically it's AFTER your first Trial because most if not all systems will be explained after that point (including unlocking side-content). The main problem, I think, is that you can hardly compare any of these 3 even though they all list as MMO's.... Runescape is a NGU-RPG; it's mainly about growing your character; the game is centered around your personal growth. WoW is a A-MMO; it focusses more on the action of things and growing stronger because (or in spite of) of events. FFXIV is a narrative-MMO.... That leads to ppl often picking the wrong MMO for them specifically... With a self-written story (Runescape), some story and a whole lot of action (WoW), or a movie interspersed with some combat (FFXIV)

[@merkzr]

I was definitely hoping you also tried SWTOR as I believe the new player experience is pretty smooth, but it was interesting learning about the FF14 new player experience.

[@daroogles]

11:45 tbh, I love Tutorial Island as well, but the most memorable tutorials for me in RuneScape were the ones that were posed as a quest. The one that I remember the MOST, however, was helping the knight underneath Lumbridge defeat a dragon (I think?)

[@stephenwalker4348]

The poisoned food??

[@daroogles]

YES! @@stephenwalker4348

[@freerice9595]

I hated that quest lol but thats just my opinion. I remember it perfectly. Right around all the eoc changes and rs3 they revamped the tutorial. Me and my friend both tried it and we thought the rework was the stupidest thing ever. Maybe we were just stuck in our old ways though but we both highly favored the original tutorial island over the rework with the dragon fight. The sad situation for OSRS is that pretty much its entire playerbase is old veteran players who signed up in 2003 or sooner. So any new feature that new players may be head over heels for, old players will hate it. It's changing the game they love. So jagex has to decide on losing it's player base to bring on new players or stick to their obsolete engine and just add new bosses. The old players are guaranteed to stick around. The new players might love a new feature but who's to say they'll even commit to the game? Then osrs dies.

[@ceshmate1953]

That's what I refer to as Runescape 2. The inbetween of Osrs and Rs3. The first time I did that dragon tutorial quest underneath lumbridge I quit the game cause I didn't understand what to do. I was still a kid then and my english wasn't perfect.

[@ignatiushazzard]

I vaguely remember some kind of fight in lumbridge, too. Was it a dragon? Wasn't that the very first rework?

[@vandalboi253]

You’re my favorite creator rn. Consistent, hilarious, and creative. Love your stuff 🙌🏾

[@chrisholland2918]

Commenting for the algorithm. Only just found your channel, but I'm really impressed at the quality of your content so far. No wonder you're the first youtuber I've come across to be sponsored by an educational institution!

[@sookooya6255]

Getting in FFXIV can be a little difficult for two main factors. 1. The beginning story is pretty slow. 2. The game doesn’t tell you a lot on how to go about playing the game. It’s 100% feasible to play FFXIV alone, but it’s not recommended because player interaction plays a big part in helping you learn the game. My recommendation for getting into the game is to either hit up some friends who already play the game and go through it with them to keep you company, or join a Free Company. Even if anyone reading this is a shy person, I cannot stress enough that joining a FC has many benefits like making friends, finding people who will help you, and getting buffs just from being in a FC. Also I cannot recommend joining the Novice Network because of how much it varies from server to server. On one server the Novice Network may be very helpful, but on another it may be vile, so if you’re insistent on joining one then maybe go to the FFXIV Reddit and ask people what the Novice Network on your server is like before joining. Lastly, there is a lot of text in this game because well, it’s a Final Fantasy game. There’s going to be a lot of reading. If you want to skip through the story and review it later, that’s always an option since New Game+ exists to allow players to replay the main story and some side quests.

[@myxini]

LOL, my NN on Adamantoise isn't too bad, I have honestly talked to some very helpful people and even been gifted equipment when I was struggling. Then again sometimes It's a hellhole of drama. Depends what day you log in. I've heard some others are terrible though. It's been useful for times when my FC or friends were not online to ask questions.

[@wpelfeta]

Back in the day in FFXIV 1.0, the world was contiguous, so the cities were much less confusing. Now that there are loading screens it's really awkward to navigate for a new player. But you get used to it after a while. Most people just use the aetherytes to get around. I just tell people to turn off the Active Help tutorials. No one ever reads them anyway, and the game is simple enough that you shouldn't need them. I never read them when I was new, and I still haven't read them ever since. You do have to go into FFXIV expecting it to be a visual novel, though. There's a lot of non-voice acted quest text. The main story quest is more of a book than a game even in the later expansions, so it's best to set your expectations going in. I think FFXIV has the best world building in an MMO, so it's really good for role players who like immersion, it has some of the best raid designs on the level of the greats like WoW, and it has a great social community if that's your jam. So if one of those three is your preferred way to play, you'll enjoy the game. If not, there are probably better alternatives that do other aspects better.

[@rasmachris94]

The new wow player experience; You're on a boat as a recruit, you arrive on an island, kill some harpies, trolls and a dragon. An hour later your in the main city hub being called the champion of that faction and sent off to war. You go to war and instead of fighting other factions fight corrupt officials, eldritch creatures and witches. You hit 60. You're then immediately sent to the land of the dead or the the dragon isles. You quest there until you hit 70 and then you have to learn; Raid mechanics and prep m+ mechanics/affixes PVP Rep farming How gear works and what stats you need on that gear Crafting systems specifically introduced in DF Do world quests, weeklies, daylies Unlock world traversal with dragonflying tokens that you have to farm Learn your rotation to be effective Have different talents for single and AOE targets for raid and M+ separately And this is just stuff off of the top of my head. This is why blizz are bleeding out. You have so much to learn and it's introduced way too late into the game. The 1-60 experience will teach you avoiding AOES, basic skill rotations, equipping gear, inventory management, cost of death and some other basic mechanics. The bulk of what you'll be playing the game for is in the last 10-20% and the learning curve becomes a cliff you have to climb. This is compounded by what stage you join the game at. If you join in a 10.2 or 10.3 patch you'll be behind everyone else who has been playing since day 1 and will be met with hostility for not knowing mechanics because you're new and they either expect you to have played the game for the past 21 years, or to have played since that expansions release.

[@bdales455]

*points* "Good! Good! Good!" Now this is the kind of commentary I'm going to subscribe for

[@I_enjoy_some_things]

I’m so glad I happened to find this guy’s channel lol. So good.

[@noisepollution4473]

As someone attempting to get into RS3 thanks to necromancy, the onboarding of that game is so rough... My osrs experience doesn't really help as much as it hinders because my idea of "what the first things you should do on a new account" is skewed. I end up going to places that are extremely dead content and wasting time there just because its familiar. I really want to like rs3. But its kind of impenetrable.

[@Ibringdoomm]

Longtime WoW player, recently (2022) left WoW (both retail and classic) and started playing OSRS for the first time. Now, a year and a half later, I don't think I'll be returning to my previous MMO of choice. There are so many esoteric systems in WoW which I only picked up on because they were drip-fed to me over years and years of playing the game. I don't think I would have gotten as invested in WoW if I had to learn everything all at once. OSRS had a very steep initial learning curve. If I hadn't had an IRL friend to help me on my first couple days with runescape I would not have been able to get into OSRS. I think OSRS had much fewer barriers to entry for me to get invested than WoW did. It took me a long time (from Vanilla WoW until WOtLK) to get actually good at WoW, then I was able to stay on top of WoW's learning curve and stay competitive for years. But it took years to get good. With my experience from WoW (and help from the wiki) I made it to endgame OSRS content within a year. I think OSRS is much more accessible than WoW, if nothing else. If classic WoW's playerbase wasn't so toxic, and Blizzard/Activision wasn't such a crappy company I would probably still be playing WoW. I am glad that Jagex cares at least a little bit about retaining their players, so I have one decent MMORPG to fall back on.

[@OperGnomeKDT]

I recently left OSRS after a year for Wow classic - We're opposites lol Ive been having a blast in classic WoW. Both have their own charms. For me im enjoying WoW cus it keeps me a bit more engaged with the action/combat - the game overall feels more alive. But, the thing I like about OSRS is you can play it with as much intensity you want, you can practically watch videos, do other things and just mindlessly gain xp in runescape which is nice and great if you're a casual player.

[@davidfence6939]

Toxic? Sounds like you have your own issues.

[@greenboots_4661]

If I have one criticism of your approach, it's that FF14's amount of reading and story content is a feature, not a bug. It's meant as a gateway for people more used to single player RPGs, like most of the other FFs. I agree that it could definitely use more "show don't tell" when it comes to the tutorials themselves, but the game having a long, story-heavy set of cutscenes at the start IS actually preparing you for the experience of playing the game; that's just the speed it rolls at, and that's why it was able to gain its reputation as the king of storytelling in the MMO space. Otherwise I really enjoyed the video!

[@ChaosHero17]

Osrs is unique in that you can do tutorial island with others and it's not in an instance but in an area separate from the main game

[@ScientistNoRyu]

The story in FF14 is amazing , the ost is legendary ,I really liked FF14 , i played it for 1000h and FF14 Endwalker was my goty 2021 even over Nier Replicant and Yakuza 6,5,4,3 and i'm the biggest Yakuza fan

[@DavidWoodMusic]

based

[@phantomwings4187]

Hey Idyl, long time viewer and hardcore FFXIV raider here. I was not expecting a crossover, but was super excited to see it. You have a ton of super valid critiques on the early game or FFXIV. Like others have said, the "tutorial" ends at level 15 with your first dungeon, and you are encouraged to do the main story quests above all else (you almost never need to grind experience from side quests, they're just for lore and some unlockables). If you're ever interested in continuing your FFXIV journey and have any questions, I'd love to chat and provide any insight I can into the game.

[@TheDinkcool]

It's because of this that I never recommend FF14 to someone looking for an MMORPG. I recommend it to people looking for a normal RPG with a great story.

[@ProfoundFamiliarity]

This is a really good video. I like your style and humor.

[@Welcomingpotato]

Only gripe with vid is the ‘microtransaction shop’ is a monthly shop you earn currency for by doing certain normal tasks like dungeons or quests.

[@fairamir1]

Most new games are confusing in the beginning when you first start playing. Each game has its own format. Just gotta give enough time to learn and get used to them.

[@Dropsey818]

sad to say everyone wants to have their hand held, bunch of whimps

[@cattysplat]

@@Dropsey818 MMO players have wanted every MMO to be World of Warcraft for almost 20 years now.

[@cameronwyatt9467]

FFXIV is my favorite game of all time but the new player experience is hinestly kind of trash if you dont know anyone who plays the game.

[@ntplusofficial]

0:03 No, it was showing you videos about MMOs dying because you were preparing a video literally titled that "it did not go well" and the algorithm picked up on that.

[@Ozzman6661]

As an RS player forever, I started playing WoW in 2019 and it was very overwhelming, especially when you are brand new and trying to do dungeous that have the try hards. Quit a few times cause people just kept flaming me for not being top DPS or some shit. Still play it. Good video!

[@stressedoutofexistence663]

WoW veteran here. Those people can go f* themselves, you do you. You could do most of the content with just bare minimum DPS.

[@cEighteen]

As a long time WoW veteran, my honest advice for new players is to try out WoW Classic Era, get to at least level 15~, THEN try Retail WoW. the basic gameplay loop of questing will make so much more sense if you do

[@TotallyCrazy410]

Even playing WotLK through would be a good option for just learning how the game works + they get some of the earlier eras and continents for a little history check!

[@cEighteen]

@@TotallyCrazy410 I guess so but wotlk kinda sucks ass

[@max7971]

@@cEighteen in what world wotlk sucks compared to classic? You literally recommended the most painful route you can take: the slowest and most painful levels in vanilla, before you get any abilities and barely invested in the talent tree, and then advise them to switch to retail. Wtf are these takes, are you trolling?

[@Immort4llity]

No Guild Wars 2? That's the one MMORPG which does not have any of the bullcrap. :D

[@michaelturner2806]

I'm only halfway through, and I expected a lot of negativity from the title and thumbnail, but I appreciate you actually listing off the things you like and being nuanced about the things you felt didn't hit right. I'm glad I was rewarded for taking a chance hoping this wasn't a "urg everything sucks and is bad" video.

[@alricfremanosrs1509]

Osrs should add a third adventure path that unlocks after you get to tier 2 of both of the first 2. "Path of the Hero" it could offer a couple of xp lamps on exchange for completing either a certain number of quests, or a few specific quests.

[@Lorentari]

Hi Idyl, since you are the CEO I can use my experience to tell you: That was not calculus

[@ebanker1]

WoW has some ramping up to having you be the champion of whatever allience you are a part of, but it is not very easy to do that as you need to catch up with years of gameplay through multiple expansions

[@Dropsey818]

no you dont lol, obviously you dont play wow

[@ebanker1]

@@Dropsey818 you don't know if I do or not, but I do so you can have the wrong opinion

[@Dropsey818]

@@ebanker1 the fact that you say catch up through years of expansions clearly tells me you dont play because, going through years of expansions is not a thing anymore, leveling takes like 2 days if you go super slow,

[@Zoltri]

NGL. I've been playing XIV for 3 years, and I'm still learning about new systems and mechanics in the game. For anyone who dips their toes in, the biggest thing I can say, don't treat it like wow. WoW ultimately is a content treadmill in my mind. Everything you do leads you to the singular end goal of PvE progression, getting gear, getting stronger, going into harder content until you eventually reach a point where your player skill can't carry you any further, and you find the highest tier of content you can current achieve until you improve and grow to climb higher and higher up that path. XIV by design is not that. You can get full Preraid BiS in about 2 hours of effort when a new tier comes out. You only need to reclear a raid 8 times on the highest difficulty, then you have full BiS and you're done. There's no other PvE progression to be found through the standard raiding loop that you'd find in WoW. Instead, XIV focuses on branching content paths. Off the top of my head you have... - Blue Mage: Collecting spells from monsters you defeat out in the world, and doing content with groups of nothing but blue mages where people build their own skill load out and go do older raid content trying to beat it with a full raid team of goofy meme jobs. Something similar to the Brawlers guild where you get weekly challenges to beat the bosses with random conditions, a class storyline, and some solo challenges to beat specific bosses as a no hit run to earn blue mage specific titles - Deep Dungeons: 100-200 floor roguelike esq dungeons you can do solo or with a group with randomized floors full of powerups, affix's and traps. Doing it as a group is "kinda" hard, but doing these solo is a really big challenge, and rewards you with titles a lot of players respect. - Ultimate Raids: Basically big, "What if" fanfiction versions of boss fights. Sticking to WoW, its basically a "What if Terion didn't shatter frostmourne and Arthas won? The fight now us fighting to break out of the sword, fighting an alternate timeline, heavily empowered version of Arthas. Its the hardest PvE content in the game, and its not a part of Gear progression. Its purely for Trophy weapon skins and titles, and 100% optional content. - Island Sanctuaries: a small minigame about growing a factory on an island, growing crops, cultivating animals, collecting rare animals, shipping things off for profit, etc. - Housing: XIV has super good player housing, people main just being a house designer helping others with making their ingame homes look as nice as possible, and people get really creative, using things like Mugs and display cases to make unique door models in game. - PvP: I hate it, its not good imo, but it exists. : ^) Basically just BGs and small scale objective based matches - Triple Triad: Mini card game and collectable system in game, go all around the world fighting people to win cards from them, building your deck to be as strong as possible. Really simple and easy tbph, but a mini collectable sidegame to mess around with. - Crafting: Unlike Wow, Crafting jobs are a full class with rotations, skills, gearing etc. There's Pro's/Con's to this, and tbph, a lot of it becomes automated through macros, but if you want to explore the system, you can 100% do it manually and through skill/knowledge out preform what macros can do. There's also Expert crafting which can't be automated, and introduces a whole new system of mechanics to make really expensive items with each tier. - Gathering: Same vibe as crafting, unique skills/Resources to manage, with timed nodes that spawn off the ingame clock, or Ephemeral nodes where you get 4 in game hours to get as much of a rare resource as you can before they fade away. Going to stop there... But, I think I made the point? XIV isn't about the pure PvE grind. I didn't even mention the MSQ, or a bunch of other systems people interact with as their main gameplay loop day to day, but XIV is designed where you're not forced to do anything, you can do what you want, when you want and the game tries its best to keep content alive forever. It isn't 100% the same, but you can go and do raids from the first Xpac of the game and progress through them as a group. The game has changed a lot in 10 years, so it is easier, but it still requires you learning and following mechanics. I think its critical to understand this concept of XIV. I hear so many players say there's nothing to do when they come from wow and finish the gear grind in a few days. But the point is there's years worth of content to do, but they're disconnected from just the PvE grind that WoW focuses on.

[@kynikostashasch2218]

you should try final fantasy 11; the tutorial didn't exist for decades and now it has one, it's still easy to miss; the basic starter experience is "here's a world; good luck nerd" and i loved it for that.

[@Trolldamere]

0:31 No no no no. That's Josh Strife Hayes. You can be vice president though.

[@Alphard72]

If Josh is president why is he on my second monitor while this is on the first one?

[@Trolldamere]

@@Alphard72 That sounds like a you problem 🤔

[@snuffcassette7555]

i thought i was impatient but hearing how you went thru the start of FFXIV makes me feel like a buddist monk

[@normalmighty]

I mean, that's a pretty typical experience of people trying FF14 because they heard it was good, but not knowing how it differed from other MMOs. most MMOs out there have story as an afterthought that you can either ignore entirely or mash through without reading. I absolutely love FF14, but that's because I'm the kind of nerd that reads all the quest text in WoW sidequests and GW2 hearts. FF14 subverts a big expectation in the genre, and it can really throw people threw a loop if they're not aware of that beforehand.

[@snuffcassette7555]

@@normalmighty i went into it expecting a jrpg so the text wasn't too much for me lol

[@ArtemisUS]

Great video, subscribed!

[@grantlaiblin5410]

I started playing wow for the first time recently . I found that my QuickStart guide is to have an old player in discord to ask questions when I can’t figure out what just happened lol!

[@igggaming9871]

26:04 In WoW's defense, that's not the microtransaction shop. Players get a number of points they can spend on cosmetics just for being subbed, and those points cannot be purchased with real money. (sometimes you get them as part of bundles though).

[@nagoshi01]

RIFT had the asbolute best tutorial to exist in an MMO. God I miss that game

[@duncanrobertson6472]

They did a lot of things right

[@ImaplanetJupiteeeerr]

You have an amazing channel here. Keep doing this, please! Love seeing Wow roasted even though I play it from time to time. XDDD

[@hmvollbanane1259]

Seems like classic wow would be right up your alley. The problem with retail is that at one point a long the way Activision realized that the leveling experience had become so disjointed and unfun as anything dies the second you look at it anyways that people were actually willing to pay an entire AAA retail game price just to skip it. Eventually it became so unbearable that they had to do something so they made the entire world scale to your level and force you to play through one of two expansions to reach the actual new theme park expansion leading to the actual gameplay - the endgame. But since the char boost has become such a profitable endeavour they never did away with forcing you to spend days on irrelevant stuff, half of which has been retconned since anyway. So basically the reason you couldn't hop into dragonflight right away is due to them prioritizing milking the established playerbase rather than getting new players (and the gameplay loop in retail stays the exact same, with the exact same quest designs, from the tutorial island until you reach the endgame when it becomes a hub to play three possible different minigames. M+ dungeons, raids and arena PvP. If you are actually looking for a somewhat challenging world of exploration and cohesion classic is the way to go