Why do some bjj gyms become Cultish and Weird? Here’s what I think.

[@jedidoesjiujitsu3177]

Wow. Seen this problem more times than I care to count. Never thought of a way to solve it. Great answer

[@legionajj]

Thx Jedi

[@RamseyDewey]

Here here! Especially on the part about gyms being “families”. Heck no! I like the people at my gym. I don’t mind hanging out with them from time to time. I would even go out of my way to help out them if they needed it. But I have a family! When people throw the sacred word “family” around carelessly like that, as if it just meant a group of cordial acquaintances with a shared interest, or worse, an actual cult- it’s just gross to me.

[@mattmccaslin3355]

I am curious about how family is used in this context. Keenan talks about instructors banging students, which seems to speak to power differentials being leveraged for personal gain. Which in another setting would be considered sexual harassment. That being said, I feel that "family" is often equated with an inviting atmosphere, which I feel is something people look for in a gym. I think that the bigger takeaway would be to avoid gyms where the employees are not professional as opposed to referring to themselves as a family. I've only trained at one gym, thus my experience is limited. But I would be curious to hear more about the experiences that you allude to. Edit: I just realized who you are! Hi Ramsey!

[@buddhastl7120]

Amen. I always get creeped out by men who call every other man in their life their brother. It’s used to manipulate and empower yourself over those in your life using a familiar bond as a facade to exploit.

[@mattmccaslin3355]

@@buddhastl7120 hmmm. That seems like a generalization. Can you provide an instance where someone calling you "brother" was in an attempt to manipulate you in some way?

[@descoutinho-e1y]

@@mattmccaslin3355 I don't think its the word so much but when a housing association started saying we were a family and a community it just meant the chap running it was running off with the money and didn't want to answer questions on finance

[@bryancjacobs]

If someone asked me as a student how to have a good experience within a gym my answer would be: - Your coach/instructor is just that someone that knows BJJ - Don't date people at your gym - Be a good training partner. - If you make friends great...don't date them :)

[@thefitgm335]

I think it would be interesting to hear about your entire experience training with Lloyd Irvin, now being away from the life almost a decade.

[@Blueblackngold]

It’s pretty chill from what I hear

[@thefitgm335]

@@Blueblackngold What's pretty chill?

[@lovehandles905]

@@thefitgm335 sexual assault

[@statictech7]

And Atos

[@thefitgm335]

@@statictech7 Atos I don't really think is that compelling. Galvao's super Christian, and promotes Jesus a lot. Lloyd was on another level.

[@eddy3011]

Great advice. Sometimes it gets exacerbated because the gym is the only place jiu jitsu guys are really respected.

[@Jonobos]

No one should respect you just because you do Jiujitsu. If someone puts that idea in your head they are part of the cult.

[@kylieminou7775]

then they have a problem

[@SamuraiKidMusic]

you're a good dude Keenan, keep it up man

[@svish5790]

Keenan's the man. If I could ever find a gym that didn't consider itself a fuckin family, then sign me up.

[@billbixby557]

You hit the nail on the head, not just in your sport but groups in general...we as people have our 'public' side and of course we have our 'personal' side. And with enough time being devoted to a particular activity; BJJ, table tennis, archery, etc. our frailties as people begin to 'bleed out' so to speak. I'm in my mid 40s and it took me a while to learn this lesson thus I'm very impressed by your honest assessment of the complication's that would pop up in time and how to properly sidestep this 'quirk' in our human nature.

[@chetfreeland1920]

My old coach put family in every ad and talked shit about people and kicked so many good people out for nothing

[@hongkongkev3941]

This channel, with Keenan being open and honest in sharing his opinions and perspective is real value, because it's refreshing and educational. This is no bullsh*t honesty that can only help any business move forward. Keep it up!

[@jabbokfluxo2139]

Recently going through a ton of these things with a few people! Appreciate all of the posts in regards to gym existence.

[@Macktube]

All this makes a lot of sense I would have liked for him to give good examples of good instructors and instructors who have bad cold Behavior for example I think Eddie Bravo and JT Torres are great examples because they let their students be themselves and don't try to control everything they do

[@aymenjr45]

If they say the word family a lot. RUN

[@jerryh2954]

That is solid advise. From a person that has ran businesses for the last 35 years.

[@coachplifestyle]

Thank you for this commentary! I absolutely love and preach the idea of “flat hierarchy” and listening to you break it down was extremely refreshing. I’m a big fan of yours and will always be.

[@buddhastl7120]

Very well put. Most people cannot handle this level of truth without getting their ego hurt. This knowledge applies to many other places in our society outside of the gym.

[@jasonwe6er]

Keenan introspective and articulate as hell

[@PIA1441]

Keenan. This video is gold. As a female jiujitsu practitioner, I thank you for talking about this. I do wonder tho, have you managed to do this with your own classes?

[@fwilg4118]

4:21 👍

[@ant5094]

I like this. It's a business for service. None of that family BS. Always made me feel weird.

[@eugenekillian8807]

Very interesting vid, thank you. This isn’t just a BJJ issue. You see it in churches, workplaces, and all styles of martial art.

[@SpartaIndigo]

Good for you Keenan! You're right on. I had to quit a gym I was going to because it was a cult. It only took about a year after I left and the whole gym went out of business. If one of your gyms shows up in my area, I'm joining.

[@cinnabun715]

I shut down a toxic Coach and his advances. He smeared me and lied about what went on and avoid accountability and discredit me. His leadership had his back. They are more interested in investigating me as the student than this dude with his soap bubble ego

[@kylieminou7775]

In a nutshell, don't favor some people (students or instructors) over other people, it's a business, not a spiritual retreat, not a feel-good clinic, not a religion, in this business a service is provided to paying customers, in a respectful and fair environment, while learning something awesome, good for you, you totally got it

[@coastacademy-officialclubc3215]

Well said.. still lots of gyms with cult mentality... to many big egos. Well said!

[@andrewtregoning]

it's almost like bjj shouldn't be a business

[@eclipsez0r]

Been there and seen it. The gym is called the academy of mixed martial arts in Western Australia

[@ryanprovost2943]

Good responses Keenan. Thanks for the insight.

[@patrickburke2187]

My life got seriously derailed by a BJJ school where the head instructor/ owner went to Lloyd Irvin business seminars. It was an extremely cultish school. The training was too rough. Got injured a lot and fucked up psychologically because I was a young and impressionable kid. Not cool.

[@lb8313]

OMG. Thank you. So many gyms: we are family. we are friends. etc. But... we aren't. I pay you, you teach me, done. Might be friend-ly... but don't set the expectation that "we are a family", when it's bull$hit.

[@Serjohn]

a huge red flag for me is when someone challenges a leader in a topic, and people defend him just to show loyalty without the initial topic being brought up, its time to get the fuck out

[@thaiboxinginstitute]

brilliant stuff kenenan.

[@Joecool20147]

“The Coaches Start dating the Girl Students” Lol you guys have girls at your Gym??

[@Cbprodzx]

The place I go to to train has more females than males students but its also because the head instructurs' lady trains there and it seems like she keeps things in line. Additionally, there is a sense of respect among everyone which makes things better. I have trained at other gyms where male students make subtle comments towards females and I think that's why most girls leave the gym, there is always that one weird guy

[@Joecool20147]

@@Cbprodzx ya I was just joking, my gym probably averages 2 females per class. Out of curiosity by Subtle Comment, what do you mean. I mean obviously you mean saying something inappropriate, but how inappropriate?

[@jdt8983]

Yeah I've gone into and left a few gyms right off the bat because they felt weird. Now I'm at a gym where I'm questioning whether or not I want to stay...the guy seems like he's getting a little weird and I feel like I'm starting to leave the gym angry. I guess it's about the big picture - do you feel drained by going to a certain place? then don't go anymore - no need to explain. Its your money and you have more important actual worries to deal with in life. loyalty is for actual friends and family and you have the right to enjoy your hobbies however you see fit

[@DoBoBn]

Apple did a similar thing. They would rotate people in the procurement department so one individual wouldn’t get too chummy with their vendors.

[@Handleunavailabl]

Kind of a weird question but Is it okay to leave a good gym if you feel like the head instructor doesn’t accept you like everyone else in the gym.

[@meteoroz]

100% you hit the nail on the head

[@Fanaro]

I also am of that view. But I have trouble also providing students with their inherent social needs within that framework. It is very common for this kind of thinking to devolve into a simply transactional environment, which is actually not human, despite what some idealists may think. How would you balance that? Would love to hear your thoughts, Keenan. I know the typical answer would be "you have to come to my gym and see", but maybe we will be able to reach a description of what we would see at some point...

[@goku-pops7918]

Social needs, you can just be polite. They will get alot of there social needs from there fellow students.your role is to be professional and fair

[@TheDharuma]

Very well said. There is cult like status in a lot of martial arts styles. Mahalo and aloha.

[@dorjedriftwood2731]

Don’t you kinda have a bit of a cult around you at least on the internet?? Have you managed to avoid that in your gym?

[@bropetersbropeters193]

I don't know.... It's really tough to read Keenan. It's like he's not really a bad guy to be around but he is also not a good guy to be around. He seems kinda cultish too, just his approach is a little more sophisticated.

[@fritzdagger]

Yes join my cult.

[@elperronimo]

He has mark Zuckerberg vibes

[@squidguard4743]

@@elperronimo lol

[@rdb3831]

Great advice!! 🤙🏼

[@anoushtag]

Keenan C - Warrior, scholar, philosopher

[@mrfrederick759]

Exactly! It shouldn't have politics or personal views either! Exactly why I left the academy I was at! I don't care what side your on I only want to discuss Jiu Jitsu in class! Nothing else

[@EliteteamMontereyJiujitsu]

Great thoughts Keenan.

[@JediNiyte]

Great video, Mister Cornelius. I would think that the nature of Jiu Jitsu itself would cause people to mellow out and give up some of the tribalistic ego stroking, but sadly that's not always the case. Keep up the good work, Sir! PS: Am I the only one upset that there's not an actual technique called the "Recursive Feedback Loop"?

[@georgej2058]

Good vid. Love your channel. If a BJJ gym were to be truly like America, there would be an owner/instructor with a small cap who calls all the shots, and whom it is verboten and even de facto illegal to even notice that is actually in charge, let alone criticize. 'Nuff said.

[@Slamminbassplayer]

Great philosophy / advice. Thank you! Ossss

[@youjitsuhoneybadgers8322]

I like the term "third place". Meaning a place where people meet outside of family and work. So my job is to provide a fun and safe enviroment for people to meet and do an activity (Jiujitsu in this case). Also try to steer away from forcing people to wear the same gi's and outfits etc. You can obviously offer them, and you should from a commercial perspective. But dont force it on people. I make sure the gi's we offer are of good quality and prizing. But if you dont like the colour, shape or whatever, youre free to roam the internet for something you do like.

[@zeehutt7876]

This guy has a lot of life experience. There is a false advertisement of we are all family and friends here that isn't realistic. And when the coaches were not as invested in me as I was invested in the program there was a serious disconnect where I had to talk about my future there cause I felt unwelcome from a lot of the "cliques" I felt were going on. And long story short I wasn't looking for friends or any handouts like was projected onto me but I wanted what I was paying for. The tools to make myself better at a martial art. The second you don't have that is the second you need to leave.

[@ddesouz6]

I love all this knowledge

[@dgtv71]

I would add that having a clearly defined promotion criteria is a must.

[@THEREALZENFORCE]

Keenan advice is essentially in Latin : "Divide Et Impera"

[@victorthai5165]

Lol seen this happen so many times in the past 12 years ive been training. I was also excommunicated from my gym because one of the instructors many girlfriends was starting to hang out with me outside of class.

[@eclipsez0r]

Seen the instructors many girlfriends happen myself

[@SIickTurtIe]

Video request: list of SoCal gyms with hottest chicks, so I know to stay away from them. 🤜🏾 👧🏻

[@pillowhands3617]

If everyone likes one instructor they’re probably just the best instructor and trying to prevent that punishes their competence and the students interests

[@NewEdgeGaming2]

i was going to a 10th planet BJJ school and the people we went there seem so weird and cult like so i stopped goin

[@ronanscreed]

In all of my years in Martial Arts, most of which have been in rather "traditional" settings ( interns of culture) not a single one of them appeared to have any of the problems spoken of here. Now, I am not saying that my experience is everyone's experience, but I am saying that it's not always the kind of negative experience that is described here. I mean, run your gym however it works for you and I see no problem going with it that way. but the other can work too for some folks.

[@brazilianjiujitsuincorporated]

Nailed it 🫵

[@pjones1403]

I think your on to something, from a psyci stand point. But again, the guy who has the most success is the guy many want to learn from. But I agree with your premise that it's a job for the teacher and a tuition for the student! FOR SURE! Thanks for sharing. Do you have a gym in the Dallas Area?

[@xtoxicxsanity]

Come try Corvo in Richardson!

[@rwdchannel2901]

BJJ Cult Signs: 1.) Bald head, 2.) Claims any martial art not BJJ is bad or bullshido, 3.) Says 'no martial art is good against multiple attackers.' 4.) Says 'I herniated multiple disc in my back and it was worth it.' 5.) Says 'Most fights end up on the ground.' 6.) Believes a BJJ guy beating a boxer is a legit example of superiority of BJJ. 7.) Claims BJJ was made for street fights.

[@Snailshroom]

I found the triggered boxer comment!

[@rwdchannel2901]

@@Snailshroom Boxing would be a good thing to know along with BJJ, but I'm not going to go along with a lot of the BS that is pushed by people who only do BJJ thinking its the be-all-end-all of martial arts all because they watched UFC 1.

[@devilpunishr]

I am triggered because I'm bald :(

[@stillnessinmovement]

I like how your thinking here. I taught karate-do for decade and I loved some parts of it. but the cultishness etc was a real issue. I eventually put it up to chinese culture need a heirarchy, while american culture is sort of against it. it's also a progress vs conservation issue. asian arts are all about preservation of the exact method from previous generation. but BJJ is currently evolving and it is progress and adaptation that is demanded, not historic method. so I think this is great way to move forward. at some point, I think you will run into the issue that some people fundamentally like to compete when training and other people like to just practice. being able to calibrate the level of competition and at times be able to work cooperatively can do a lot to extend skill development and longevity of practice.

[@itakejess8876]

You taught Karate and put it up to chinese culture? Karate is Japanese

[@Joyceages]

@@itakejess8876 😂 I was like wtf? Haha

[@fatguyonthc]

Love my gym so much.

[@genofila8943]

Wouldn’t it be nice if owners and instructors thought it was about the students and not themselves. How many white belts need to quit ? How many black belts need to grab a bunch of students and start own school ? How many purple and brown belts have to wonder - who’s really giving a dam ? Ya school politics are real and it seems so often the ones screaming be humble, be patient are the ones to watch ( Often they are power hungry ).

[@Shortwaveshark]

keenan is so fucking real lol

[@yikemikehappa2463]

Very wise indeed!

[@shootits48]

That's great advice

[@bxlawless100]

It’s like magicians. If you notice the magician, you missed the magic.

[@heavymetalyogi1767]

i like to use the « dont shit where you eat » philosophy.

[@Jessie_James850]

He is correct.

[@LoneStarVII]

We're not friends? ☹️

[@PeterJames143]

haha :)

[@meowingtonz9108]

I think of you more as an acquaintance

[@gumfun2]

Just act with integrity and values and take responsibility for your actions including speech, no? But, ya, the part about balancing the powers, providing value and service to others, and do not aim to be their best friends i think is crucial.

[@austinbentley1996]

If everybody wants to go to a certain person’s class, I think that you are punishing the plurality of students that like their coaching by randomizing it

[@fritzdagger]

It’s good for them to get multiple perspectives

[@blockacademymusic7062]

Spot on

[@PeterJames143]

I hope your system will work but it seems like if you go to such lengths to distribute power then it might water down the quality of the jiu jitsu teaching. You might end up having to get teachers wholesale. Also you don't encourage the really good teachers. I know you are a good teacher and your thoughts on that are interesting, and I didn't know that about gyms imploding after dating scandals although it does make sense and in the light of your comments I have made a couple observations about gyms I attended. Also I have seen the abuses by people who let the authority go to their heads but who fail to moderate that authority with responsibility... and possibly it is impossible to balance the responsibility with the adulation from students. On the other hand it is probably dead impossible to avoid the adulation that you and the other bjj celebrities get, especially at your own gym. Personally I don't think it's wrong to date a student but it can't be a casual fling situation. If a bjj teacher marries a student I don't have a problem with it. But if he's just jumping into bed with all his students that is obviously going to tear his community apart. Very interesting I'm curious to see how it works out for you. I'm thinking of a specific person who is also a bjj celebrity but I have not yet heard a bad story about him even though my teacher was his student and I know some semi-personal stuff about gym politics at his gym, so his gym setup seems like an alternative to your methodology that might also be workable/viable even though he is definitely top dog there.

[@FFTuk]

This is the only thing I have heard Keenan talk about that I semi disagree with. Not strongly against it, but I do wonder too how he manages personally to not be the ‘go to guy’ and mini celebrity at his academy because he is head and shoulders above 90% of JJ practitioners. I am the owner and head instructor of a gym, but I run it with my family (actual family) and never accept favours or anything like what he mentioned. I love seeing high ranked students sharing knowledge and taking on instructor roles. I am there to give the service that students are paying for, and there are choices to go elsewhere. JJ is the perfect sport to humble you as we all know, and I like to believe that most Black Belt instructors have their students best interests at heart and reflect that in the culture of their academy. Yes ultimately the ‘power’ lies with me, but another great saying; from Spider-Man no less, says ‘with great power comes great responsibility’ and the success of your academy and sometimes the financial security of your family comes with not allowing that corruption to creep in. Maybe I’m being naive though.

[@annaa8207]

@@FFTuk we also have a head coach at our gym different from the actual owner and the system they have put in place seems to be working. He is not the only go-to guy at our gym though, people ask questions from pretty much every high(er)-ranking belt that is available. Different instructors have different teaching styles and different strengths so I think it is only natural that people have someone who is more or less their favourite instructor. But our head coach is a professional (has a degree in sports science), that position is his job that he gets paid for. I think that if someone wants to provide the best possible service they might want to consider to have someone who is responsible in developing that service, whether that someone is themselves or someone they might employ.

[@FFTuk]

@@annaa8207 well said, sounds like a great gym!

[@DanieltheBibleNerd]

@@FFTuk Keenan doesn't teach that much at Legion. He does teach but typically its Andris, Sloan, Sunshine or Miha.

[@FFTuk]

@@DanieltheBibleNerd ah ok. Thanks

[@JMmodernJJ]

BRAVO!

[@danielmulholland5869]

As a psych student, I also hesitate everytime I say "self fulfilling prophecy" because it's just the stupidest name of a concept in the field 😂

[@derekbk9093]

4:18 100% accurate lol

[@JSMinstantcoaching]

Doing business is about TRUST, TRUST happens when Someone shows he really cares, The only ones who truly care are GOOD friends, ultimately true success comes down to STRONG relationships, no matter the ACTIVITY.

[@elhud9389]

because they love triangles

[@JoeHeine]

This question is being asked to a guy who got SWAT-raided twice LOL

[@andrewtregoning]

keenan is the yin to andrew tates yang. they must fight

[@danielpakele7905]

Truth Keenan 🤙🏾

[@TheBobbySpeed]

Good ol saying, don’t s*** where you eat

[@tatecomedy]

Could you make a video explaining in depth on how to start your own sex cult, please?

[@CameronberryATTA]

that cut at 2:4? was hilarious!

[@slick222]

why is this not a problem in medicine or law or plumbing? why do people ask jiu jitsu experts questions outside of jiu jitsu?

[@TakeItToTheGround]

I think you forgot individual responsibility/power of the individual. Treat you Sensei/Coach/Professor as you do others around. Act in a way you want others in the club to act towards you. Leave if it isn't right.

[@mikethompson7268]

What you're describing sounds ridiculous where does this happen and why do these gyms exist 🤔I learned BJJ to armbar people I thought that is why we all did it

[@chadbrambers8346]

Learn from a wise and humble black belt

[@forwhatitsworth9958]

wise words

[@porunmexicomejor1]

I think of most of the problems are not bjj problems actually that is American culture.

[@deathofaclown]

wise man

[@RoloSolis81]

Open a gym in San Luis Obispo!

[@benneywenney]

Would love to train with you one day man

[@blackbeltpanda8522]

I understand the instinct to not let one coach be the top of the hierarchy, but if the instructor was truly great at teaching. Why would you try to rotate him out just so his/her ego doesn’t get too big? It feels like you’re robbing your gym of having an excellent teacher, teach more classes.

[@samuelemeryjiujitsu]

Every school Adlai Cleveland has opened in Michigan lol

[@domingos79]

yeap. That's true. I even heard about a gym like these that calls himself an AJJ Gym. Can you believe it? Absurd as there's no such thing as AJJ. It's a mix of a scam and pure low level marketing.

[@elperronimo]

Didn't expect the redpill talk lmao

[@weslleylucassilvadossantos3783]

I guess he isn't say to not make friends at your bjjs gyms, instead, do friends there if you want to, not this bulshit speach "we are like family" and consequently you fell obliged to treat your parters like friend or someone who you care about. Btw, Wise words Keenan, you look like a smart guy that knows how to not have a ruge ego even beeing one of the bests bjj player of this generation

[@devilpunishr]

where i live all bjj academies are this way LOL🤣