Why Does Atheism Lead to Nihilism?

Clip taken from an episode of the Triggernometry Podcast, "The Moral Case Against Eating Meat" | available in full here: • The Moral Case Against...
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[@venus-pq5gg]

There is an assumption in Alex’s argument that doesn’t make any sense to me. Why are human lives worth more than any other object in the universe? Who decides what is valuable and why?

[@malicant123]

A Christian would tell you "because God says so". This would strike an Atheist as baseless argument because one can't prove the existence of God. However, if one simply accepts the argument, they will be able to believe that humans have an inherent importance over everything else, and from that derive a set of morals.

[@venus-pq5gg]

@@malicant123yep, that definitely is not a better answer.

[@adisonransley]

@@venus-pq5gg fax, like if all values are baseless and nothing can be known or communicated, why on earth are humans valuable? because we can create our own meaning or joy? but that's just chemicals! I think it falls short.

[@benxojylol6537]

I dont believe that he said that. We are not worth more than anything. The existence of fulfillment through social interactions gives life an inherent worth, the worth of experiencing joy. Our consciousness decides what is valuable and whats not. That may not satisfy you, but theres no argument that life is worth living, just as there is no argument against the meaning of life. We are all subjective, we decide on the values, we are subjectice, therefore, the worth of objects is subjective. I cant prove to you that I think that human experience is highly valuable, I just believe it.

[@kangarooninja2594]

@@malicant123 Science doesn't prove anything, it falsifies things and whatever's left over is accepted as truth. And when do we accept science's falsifications of the things that we experience for ourselves within the intimate places of our own being? Do you need science to confirm that your love for your family is more than just chemistry, or do you simply accept that your love is significant in a way that chemistry isn't?

[@khurmiful]

I like to think that it’s realism that hits the fan, rather than nihilism.

[@LevantWasTaken]

True, but realism (1800s art movement) is poggers

[@AlexReynard]

No. You *like* to think that, because you believe realism is more noble than nihilism, but it's absolutely nihilism. I see it constantly. Atheists get excited over, 'I'm smart because I don't believe a thing'. And then they don't realize, a lack of a belief isn't anything. It's a blank space for you to put something better. They've literally just made a hole in their knowledge and then not filled it with anything, instead of seeing it as the starting point of a quest. And also, it's not realism because it's arrogant to think we know what "real" is. It's like two NPCs in an MMORPG insisting that there's no such thing as users or computers or hardware, because there's no evidence for them within the game world.

[@ScarredRomeo]

That’s a poor argument: that if there is eternal life, then it makes this one meaningless. No. If one’s state in a possible eternal life is predicated upon what one does in this life, it makes this life *very* significant. This life has never been meaningless for the theist. In fact, it can never be because nihilism never enters into the picture in a theistic world view. It is only possible in an atheistic one.

[@AlexReynard]

I look at it as, maybe the afterlife, in its natural state, is as unsolid and everchanging and substanceless as a dream. Maybe we get this lifetime to accumulate 'building materials' (experiences, sights, memories, emotions) to craft where we'll live after we die.

[@cosmicpickle2659]

As a former Christian up to my late 20s and an atheist thereafter, I can attest to the nihilistic hole that is left behind and the real uphill challenge to rebuild meaning into one's life. I think Alex hits the point square on. Was making decent progress but then the pandemic hit and other things happened which definitely took me back a few steps. Just gotta keep working at it!

[@CptBumFlufff]

Same boat for me, well said.

[@crystalgiddens7276]

@@CptBumFlufff Yes, atheism leads to Nihilism the same way the elite escape justice. Obviously, the elite "make the rules" and cannot be guilty of violating the rules unless they are found guilty by the rules they themselves made. For instance, (elite person "A") may in fact commit a despicable crime. (elite person "A") will bear no responsibility (personal or otherwise including "guilt" etc)) unless the rules he made lead to his conviction for said crime. He therefore leads a nihilistic life and is absolved of ALL responsibility by virtue of his nihilism and status. For the commoner atheist, however, this is NOT such a good system of justice. They suffer along with all other commoners but will never know until "it" happens to them. Difference is, they voluntarily buy into the system which (elite person "A") very much appreciates.

[@brunorhagalcus6132]

Same scenario as you, but never had the sense of nihilism or lack of purpose. I was never a God first Christian though. My purpose was family, friends, good people, God… to the point I thought Abraham was a POS. The only part that changed is I replaced God with science which gave me an avid and much more enlightened purpose. It also gives me solace in the purpose of advocating science so hopefully less future generations will have to endure as much suffering or even death. To me, it’s a nobler purpose than pacifying fear with eternal fantasies.

[@etzie1728]

Meaning is not a property of things, other than which we assign.

[@crystalgiddens7276]

@Brother Ben I didn't mean to say destruction is the impulse of an atheist. I said (elite person A) has no legal or moral constraints whatsoever.

[@SuperScopeRawks]

In theory this sounds ok but in practice when people believe this life is all there is they become deathly afraid to lose it. Most people actually do the opposite of "living life to the fullest". This covid situation is proof people are willing to sacrifice doing the things they love (or even seeing the people they love) for fear of dying.

[@adammooney2415]

Well said living for the sake of life itself is futile.

[@lenloving]

Before coming out as a non-believer, that is to say, an apostate, I avoided doing so as if I had been avoiding the nihilistic hole I was told about as a Christian. It was like a black hole that would swallow me. I seemed to fear not having meaning more than the prospect of a fiery destination if I didn't mind my heart and soul. But, in the end, my mind won out. While my mind would no longer perform the mental gymnastics needed to find or have faith-much less keep it- my mind simultaneously woke to the wonder of nature, the phenomenon of life, my own life, the incredible opportunity and chance I had. Where I feared nihilism and an utter lack of meaning I actually found even greater wonder and purpose beyond my imagination, certainly beyond the limited scope I was previously ensconced as a child.

[@leob3447]

I can very much relate to this.

[@shannaveganamcinnis-hurd405]

Wow. Very well said. Thank you for taking the time to write your feelings. This is exactly how I feel. Are you vegan now? Just wondering, as it seems to be the case for many who have found a greater sense of the world. ❤️🌱❤️

[@bigbabatunde1218]

Hey atheists! Here's a *Top Ten Problems with Theories of a Godless, therefore, spontaneous abiogenesis and evolution.* *1:* No viable mechanism to generate a primordial soup has ever been evidenced. *2:* Unguided chemical processes cannot explain the origin of the genetic code or indeed "life". Miller Urey experiments did not yield life. *3:* Random mutations cannot generate the genetic information required for irreducibly complex structures. *4:* Natural selection struggles to fix so called advantageous traits into populations but seemingly leaves scores of disadvantages that lead to impairment and often disability from bacteria to people and everything in between. A process like this can never realistically be expected to give rise to the abundance of life suited to their environments. *5:* Abrupt appearance of species in the fossil record does not support Darwinian evolution or any other Godless evolutionary theory. *6:* Molecular biology has failed to build and showcase a grand “Tree of Life”. Well, not one that makes any sense or indeed anywhere near complete. Why would that be? *7:* 'Convergent Evolution' challenges Darwinism and destroys the logic behind common ancestry and mainstream evolutionary theories. But Darwinism is still being taught as the cornerstone of evolution. Again, Why would that be? *8:* Neo-Darwinism struggles to explain the biogeographical distribution of many species. Yes they have answers but not satisfactory answers backed with robust, independent evidence. *9:* Neo-Darwinism has a Long History of inaccurate predictions about "vestigial organs" and “Junk DNA” to the point that many proponents of evolution have turned their backs on those predominant theories. *10:* Humans display many behavioral and cognitive abilities that offer no apparent survival advantages according to evolutionary logic, so where did these abilities come from if they didn't "evolve"? This is just a top ten remember.

[@oliverhug3]

@@bigbabatunde1218 what has your list do with atheism?

[@bigbabatunde1218]

@@oliverhug3 Seriously?? A Godless, random and spontaneous origin to life is what atheists believe happened. The scientific community has no evidence to support this nor how or why it would even be possible, but since it doesn't involve God then atheists will go with that as it suits them. LMAO. 😂😂

[@norbeekash2699]

I never felt more empty and lifeless when I was religious. So I had to disagree with the negative impact of not being religious.

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

So it looks like you're fine with dying and losing memory of everything then, AND ALSO in living in an unfair, unjust, absurd world where its possible to be successful through abuse. Yet you think THAT is something worth celebrating...

[@bibaolaitan5189]

@@ForLogicandReason-Mark1 how can you regret losing memory of your life. When you are dead. I am so confused!!!..

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

​@@bibaolaitan5189 You mourn it whilst you're alive because somebody with critical thinking skills, knowledge of logic and reason, and respect for themselves and what they love knows that indulging in pleasant memories and then losing those memories is ABSURD and disrespectful to the effort taken in attaining those memories in the first place. Now it sounds like YOU are fine with losing memory of everything you hold dear to you, which probably includes family members. Well then I have NO sympathy in your case of you losing anything because you apparently puff out your chest and say "durrrrr I'm tough, I won't know when I lose memory of anything, thus its okay for me to lose memory of everything, durrrr"!

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

@@bibaolaitan5189 So much for you mainstream atheists being "more empathetic" than theists. You guys think that us fridge atheists who mourn the absurdity of life and its unfairness and futility are a waste. If mainstream atheists were truly empathetic, they'd understand how we feel and try to make us feel better. The attitude of general atheists is this silly "humanist" attitude, but when put into actual practice, you all mock other's suffering. Its disgusting and I want it publicly known.

[@bibaolaitan5189]

@@ForLogicandReason-Mark1 you re seriously weird. What does what you say have anything to do with what I asked. They os a lot of things that when I think about makes me sad, like dying or loosing a loved one. Can you explain how loosing my memory will be one of them. When I am already dead.

[@andrewthomastaylor]

I don't understand how someone can be an atheist without being completely Nihilist, it really makes no sense to me. Because if their is no meaning and you create meaning, there still is no meaning.

[@glenjennett]

I have trouble finding meaning in what you said. Could you explain your meaning? Do you think a person has to be religious to have meaning? Or that if you have no religion, then you must not have any morals? Morality is not a religious concept or invention, it's a human social construct. Meaning does not come from being religious, it comes from finding something that gives your life value. If religion gives your life value and you are able to find meaning in that, that's fine, but religion is not a requirement for those things.

[@andrewthomastaylor]

@@glenjennett some religions posit meaning outside of “self created meaning” which is basically nothing. Since it is subjective. Meaning for a Christian a Jew or a Muslim is transcendental meaning the don’t define what makes something meanful. That meaning is posited by a creator that is the difference.

[@DrDoof14]

and yet the most horrendous crimes are mostly committed by some religious person or group

[@andrewthomastaylor]

@@DrDoof14 yeah I don’t know about that….

[@glenjennett]

@@andrewthomastaylor Just look at history and you can see how many wars are fought over religious reasons. Christianity is notorious for persecuting anyone for not following their belief system. Even today, many Christians feel that if a person doesn't follow their beliefs, they are not worthy of "being saved" and will try to convert everyone who isn't a Christian. Wars fought in the middle east even today are fought by religious groups over differences in beliefs. It's one of the stupidest reasons, if not the stupidest reason, to have conflict. Personally, I am not religious for a reason, yet I have been able to find my own sense of peace and comfort in the world without it, proving that religion is not a necessity in this world. Compassion and acceptance is and if we can all learn to have those, the world would be better off. Why can we never have world peace? Because not even our religions can agree to get along with each other.

[@kaodi6993]

Its logical progression. Leaving religion changes the meaning of life. No afterlife , death is end of life. Is very sad notion

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

It's actually quite freeing.

[@kaodi6993]

@@ASMRyouVEGANyet to you, me and some people. Other psychi cant handle it

[@kaodi6993]

@BelugaTheSmartCat I agree but depression is a fact too.

[@Zazacollector]

The fact that death is the end of life, gives all the more reason to value the 1 life you do have.

[@posto8421]

​@@ASMRyouVEGANyetyou lying to yourself

[@nette9836]

I was completely nihilistic as an atheist and even believed that many immoral things were fine because I wouldn't have to answer to anyone after. It was a dark place.

[@wishlist011]

That must have been a really dark place. I hope you've discovered more than just the threat of being held to account for your actions as reason not do things that you otherwise would consider wrong/harmful/immoral.

[@yoe91]

So then what happened ? (curious, not judging)

[@TheQuranExplainsItself]

@@wishlist011 let’s get rid of courts, police, laws etc then be consistent with your issues against accountability and not just the hereafter. You guys are always arrogant but never as clever as you think you are.

[@TheQuranExplainsItself]

@Perturbed Atheist he just saw the insanity of atheism when all the evidence is in front of you.

[@TheQuranExplainsItself]

@Perturbed Atheist what’s the necessary existence for this existence genius? You can’t have this existence without an infinite entity with the will to bring all that exists into existence. If you think it’s possible I’m all ears.

[@Iamwrongbut]

I think the nihilistic challenge to this is “why should we make the most of life?”

[@PlantPowerTrip]

Tough one. You’re stuck here anyways unless you call it quits so might as well make the ride somewhat enjoyable? 😂

[@Topazdemonia]

If nothing matters objectively , then all things you can do are equally valuable. Might as well do what you subjectively consider to be making the most of your life. There’s no objective reason to do something over another, so you might as well do the subjective thing. There’s no reason not to

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@Topazdemonia And, frankly, it's what everyone does anyway, even though they might pretend otherwise. That's just human nature. You always do what you subjectively prefer. (Of course, nothing keeps you from subjectively deciding to follow some external objective or even absolute standard. You do you.)

[@Rudol_Zeppili]

And the nihilistic challenge to that would be “why not make the most of life”

[@bdnnijs192]

It would be Christians (or Jews, or Muslims) proposing this challenge. How exactly are atheists the ones who are nihilists when theists keep using nihilistic arguments (unironically, in a twist that is in itself ironic)?

[@AlexReynard]

Atheism leads to nihilism because not enough people who have the basic courage to gaze into the abyss have the extraordinary courage to keep on gazing until they see past it.

[@firstnamelastname5761]

Alex is like the younger brother I never had, somebody I would be incredibly proud of to introduce as my brother & friend. It is not only his articulation & well thought out arguments that is attractive, but the core honesty with which he approaches any subject.

[@HarmzConscious]

Atheists are just people brainwashed by science, brainwashed by the system into thinking everything has a scientific explanation. They think we’re stupid for having a “friend in the sky” when they’re stupid for being brainwashed by science…Coincidences rarely occur, when you think of someone and they come round the corner the same second is because you’re putting that energy into the world. I just made a video on all this and went in deep. Stay blessed 🙏

[@sandydonaldson4998]

Note the critique was of now living in "individualized" times, not "worse" times. Because they cannot deny that people live longer, have more options, are less violent now then 200 years ago when Christianity dominated Europe. Now we also don't oppress as badly on the basis of sex, gender, race, and more. They can't deny that so much of what was considered moral Christian duties even a century ago is now abhorrent abuse.

[@KaiHenningsen]

There's also the fact that, at least in Europe's cities, people are usually so embedded in a number of different, partially overlapping communities, only a few of which are likely to be based on religion, that there's much less of a hole to fall into when you give up religion. Religious communities are much less of a one-stop-shop than in the US. (It also helps that, generally speaking, atheism has much less of a bad reputation to overcome.)

[@aaronclarke7732]

That’s not fair because the Christians in Ancient Rome wouldn’t have recognised the Christians in medieval Europe who wouldn’t have recognised the Christians in the East. We lump so much variable human experience under one word. You are cherry picking the worst ones like critics of Christianity always do: witch burnings, crusades, inquisition, as if they are a representative sample of what is an evolving and highly variable thing encompassing billions of lives.

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@aaronclarke7732 The point is, they *were* a representative sample. (Well, not every specific one, but large masses of Christians in medieval Europe certainly seemed to think very little of gratuitous violence on a mass scale.) I'd say you forgot the excesses driven by antisemitism, which has certainly been preached from the pulpit for a very long time, and had lots and lots of victims even before modern times. For a lot of reasons (and Christianity is just one of them), the value of a human life seems to have been much lower to them than to us. (At which point I have to say that the same is true (though maybe not quite as large) of the difference between the US and Europe - again and again, I get the distinct impression that the US values human lives less than Europe does, see for example the gun debate. (And let's please don't get into the details of that here - my point is the loss of lives this causes in the US seems intolerable by European standards.))

[@reedclippings8991]

Yes!! Meaning comes from impermanence! A musical note that’s permanent would just be tinnitus…

[@trentonshuke3563]

Humans finding things meaningful because of that things temporal nature is very different then those things being actually meaningful. Anything can be meaningful to anyone. The subjectivity of meaning is what ultimately brings you back nihilism. It’s your belief in the meaningfulness of a thing that makes it meaningful. The only objectivity in meaning is that all peoples need it in order to live. That doesn’t make meaning true, rather it makes it necessary.

[@proudatheist2042]

Wow, that's a profound thought. Thanks.

[@trentonshuke3563]

@@proudatheist2042 thanks, I’m not an atheist btw

[@mariog1490]

@@trentonshuke3563 that sounds like Kierkegaard 👍🏿

[@proudatheist2042]

@@trentonshuke3563 you're welcome. However, my reply was meant for the original poster. Even as an Atheist, I know I can learn things from people with different belief systems than me.

[@mitkoogrozev]

When I first heard of nihilism, and how people used it, it just gave me the impression that it sounds or reads like something a recently de-converted person from religion would say. When they realize that there's no purpose in life, it's only sad and depressing because they still hang on to the purpose concept, which has been 'emptied of all it's content'. I've never been religious so I never had such moments. It's just a temporary understandable depression. Your whole world view has been shattered, and now you have no functional behaviors or you cant tell well which one was connected to religious reasons and which weren't. And gradually, under favorable conditions, you can learn how to understand your new un-religious POV, which would get you out of nihilism.

[@TIMMYT3573]

This is an awesome point... Relate to this 100%. I constantly have to remind myself that the idea of a single ultimate purpose is not necessarily a philosophy that holds true

[@potts995]

Debating a theist with regards to the meaning of life seems futile in my experience, because they understand it as a need that they MUST have fulfilled for some reason. It must be prescribed by a god, or else it's not objective, and therefore, it's meaningless, and therefore must be rejected, the tale repeatedly goes. I've also noticed that they tend to apply the same perspective to evolution. They argue that, without God, your purpose in life is to reproduce under an "atheistic worldview," and you're failing at evolution if you aren't. It's a total misunderstanding of reality that they often apply to other concepts as well. I don't know what the trick is to get them to stop thinking in this way, other than just simply not indoctrinating the youth, as a good starting point.

[@cosmicprison9819]

Life is procrastination of death.

[@sn00dles83]

I disagree with this premise, as a Christian this is a temporary trial period with eternal consequences for me and the people around me, making each day infinitely important

[@Contagious93812]

Christianity leads to nihilism, not atheism. Because within the Christian view nothing makes sense without the God of The Bible.

[@madnessoverload7824]

I think nihilism is the only logical conclusion of atheism. Once you understand that there's no creator and no afterlife, you also understand that there's no objective purpose to our existence. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. Being a nihilst doesn't mean that you stop giving a shit about life and become depressed. We need purpose in our life to distract ourselves from our inevitable death, and you can have that purpose while acknowledging that it is purely subjective. Being a nihlist simply means that you do not believe in an objective purpose.

[@lendrestapas2505]

Why do you think you would have an objective purpose if a God created you? Isn’t this purpose also subjective because God chose it for you?

[@lendrestapas2505]

@Arthur Schopenhauer a real pessimist you are, Arthur!

[@madnessoverload7824]

@@lendrestapas2505 Fair point, i guess it wouldn't be objective either way. But at least without God, you don't feel forced to follow a purpose that someone else laid out for you, and instead you can create your own.

[@MiloMay]

thats a non sequitur

[@jeannedarc7533]

It's a soul-sucking and makes you despondent. Yesterday, I thought a lot about what's the meaning of life, your fundamental Ontological questions, and I couldn't come with an answer except to be left in the same state I was when I starting thinking, a state of intellectual nausea and hopelessness arising from the fact that there's no meaning to life. Life is simply there, there's no meaning or higher power, we have simply devised morality and rules to abide by, when we try to enforce our view of life on the actual reality itself, problems will be created as a corollary result, because you can't reconcile two discordant concepts and make them work harmoniously, the two concepts are a fantasy of what life is, and the reality itself which is intrinsically free from any values or fantasies, now tell me how you can reconcile two completely antithetical concepts? Even if you try to do so, it'll not be near impeccable, it'll breed the root of all discord about what is true and about what morals are right, because these things are based on subjectivity which is not based on the objective reality.

[@theuglybeing4673]

I am 19 years old. I was a huge Christian, I've studied all the commandments, active in my church and help the pastors set up the church and actually wanted to be a Pastor at one point. Walked around with a Bible in my backpack and prayed everyday at lunch. Then in this year 2021 April 28th I became atheist and not belived in Go because I've questioned the existence of God in the beginning of 2021 and came to a conclusion that he doesn't exist 🤷

[@that1monk]

i deeply appreciate the clarity of alex's mind. his mind is very refreshing to me. thanks, alex.

[@rachelthompson9324]

the meaning of life is to live it, that's all you need.

[@agentredacted3560]

I'm an atheist and I agree that life is technically meaningless. But, I don't agree that it should be a depressing thing that life is meaningless. Since it is meaningless, it is up to us to give it meaning.

[@justanotherhomosapian5101]

I was thinking about this the other day, the fact that we are going to die makes life more valuable. It creates an urgency to love the people I love, accomplish my dreams and aspirations and create justice now coz the only justice that would ever exist is the justice we produce.

[@santopino2546]

Though I had compulsory religion and worshiping in all my school years, I never really believed it, so when I finally accepted at the age of about 13 that it was useless attempting to force myself to believe, I stopped worrying about it, god threats had already no effect on me. I'm now 60, came to Italy at the age of 18 (my parents’ homeland), and was amazed how such a friendly society had nearly a total absence of religious terminology in their daily dialogues. very few knew I was an atheist, at the age of about 35 to 40 I started coming out without problems and found that more than half the people around me where non-believers and followed religion as a tradition to please their parents. Ideal place to not fall into nihilism.

[@adamc1694]

Theism and religion are not necessary tied together. Antony Flew, an educated professor, once a hard atheist but then at his 80's finally realized it. He then wrote a book "There is a God". In his book he wrote down why he became an atheist, pretty much the same path all atheists been through--he got mixed up religion with just the philosophical state.

[@santopino2546]

@@adamc1694 No, It's all about the lack of evidence, and the adsurd irrational answer that religions give. I was a non believer for decades before I even heard about the big bang and evolution, I was perfectly happy with "I don't know".

[@HarmzConscious]

Atheists are just people brainwashed by science, brainwashed by the system into thinking everything has a scientific explanation. Coincidences rarely occur, when you think of someone and they come round the corner the same second is because you’re putting that energy into the world. I just made a video on all this and went in deep. Stay blessed 🙏

[@santopino2546]

@@HarmzConscious sure, atheists are brainwashed, and believers are the rational.

[@santopino2546]

@@HarmzConscious I watched a few minutes of your video, it's quite painful to watch, I do recommend a good education. A good education is fatigue and takes years of your like and religious indoctrination is pure mental laziness.

[@a.gwhiteley1855]

Alex speaks of the sense of loss of purpose which can accompany the falling away of religion and the embrace of atheism. This, however, is not merely a psychological aftermath which we can "get over" as we get used to being atheists. For this sense of purposelessness is an accurate, rational feeling, given what atheism is saying. The only thing ultimately in existence is, after all, the unintended, blind, mindless, purely material universe which, as Bertrand Russell said, is "just there and that's all". We, with our conscious minds, are (as Brian Cox likes to tell us in his TV programmes) the incidental by-products of this purposeless cosmos. If purpose cannot be ascribed to the universe, it cannot logically be ascribed to that tiny part of it - namely, ourselves. Our notions of purpose and value are therefore illusions, benign fictions which enable us to get by and live our lives. It often seems to me that atheists put their atheism on the backburner while they get on with their lives, and only bring it to the front of the hob when they are arguing the case for atheism!

[@DavidAguileraMoncusi]

"If purpose cannot be ascribed to the universe, it cannot logically be ascribed to that tiny part of it - namely, ourselves." I don't agree with that statement. There's plenty of examples of "emergent properties" in the universe.

[@a.gwhiteley1855]

@@DavidAguileraMoncusi However, a property can only "emerge" if, in some sense, it is already present, as the form of a crystal, for example, emerges from its molecular structure. Put another way, the mole emerges from the molehill only because it is already in there! On an atheistic worldview, purpose can only exist in the universe as an illusion in our own minds.

[@beingisthebestjoy]

meaning is a personal matter brother . Only the a person himself can choose to make his life meaningful or not and that goes for the religious or non religious and btw its a tough path to live a meaningful life it requires alot of self control and humbleness to learn and do whats right for us and others

[@a.gwhiteley1855]

@@beingisthebestjoy I agree entirely that meaning is personal - this does not mean, however, that we are making it up. It is not an illusion, for it points (at least, I myself think so) to something which transcends us.

[@beingisthebestjoy]

@@a.gwhiteley1855 no its not an illusion . We have the pain of selfhood and boredom thats the reason why we want to put significance into our actions and i kinda dont think there is something as a person reaching perfection in this meaning business . Its all a process and takes alot of effort to keep up going

[@aaronclarke7732]

This is a poor argument because that’s not at all the experience of the average member of a parish or congregation who doesn’t study theology. The meaning and purpose is intimately related to social interaction. In most cases I would posit, losing your community is what harms, not losing your beliefs.

[@LARESCIV]

you can do without either if by beliefs you mean religious beliefs, lonewolfing was a thing since forever, what you can't do without is values and virtues which you do fundamentally get from religion

[@Pyriold]

I think most christians are not quite so sure about the afterlife. It's more like a cherished hope. Christians usually cling to life just like everybody else.

[@LARESCIV]

@@Pyriold modern christianity is a shadow of its former self mate, mostly due to secularisation and relavitisation of it through so many diff. ideologies west has put out past 100 years

[@Pyriold]

@@LARESCIV Yea i think you are right, but the reason is mostly science, closing all the gaps in our understanding that religion used to explain. What's left now is just a shadow.

[@LARESCIV]

@@Pyriold If science actually closed ALL the gaps as you claimed, don't think christians would even exist culturally let alone spiritually and dont think muslim world would be so devout and lively in their spirituality either. Theres tons of existential and moral questions not being answered by science, not cause it needs more time to answer them, but because it is incapable of doing so cause those issues aren't of measurable or calculable nature (materialistic).

[@mickqQ]

I’m an atheist I believe that when I die , hopefully a long time from now that “ I” will cease to exist, I will return to oblivion from whence I came. So, the ( hopefully) 80-90 years I get to be conscious is all I will have or ever have, this makes that time incredibly precious, the most valuable thing I will ever have. Nothing will or can ever mean more to me than this time I have alive

[@thymelaka4758]

I was thinking about Ted Bundy when I read your comment. He had nihilistic tendencies too. He expreses it himself along the lines of your comment. You would be surprised to know how many psychopaths and serial killers have said things similar to your comment above.

[@mickqQ]

@@thymelaka4758 My comment is the opposite of nihilism Psychopaths lack the ability to empathise. It’s more common than you think , only a small percentage are violent , quite a few become captains of industry. I’m neither a psychopath or a nihilist A nihilist thinks that nothing has meaning While I think that being alive means everything

[@user-ny7sg9mz1v]

Very good belief to increase selfishness. I can't see emerges of altruism if everyone wants to fulfill it. It's evident, you have used "I" around 10 times to define your meaning in life.

[@mickqQ]

@@user-ny7sg9mz1v I’m talking about myself and my view about myself , so “i” is appropriate. I didn’t define my meaning in life I asserted that my life has meaning , which is the opposite of nihilism. I’m also a secular humanist, So I am invested in promoting the well being of humans.

[@user-ny7sg9mz1v]

@@mickqQ "I didn't define my meaning in life" I thought you just did that? But secular humanism has nothing to do with Atheism. You didn't catch the issue here. You can personally have meaning, but atheism doesn't offer any meaning to life unlike religions. So the issue is you can be an atheist and experience nihilism. Just like you can be atheist and experience a lack of morals because it doesn't prescribe anything.

[@ginismoja2459]

Oh my goodness, Alex on Triggernometry! Am I dreaming?

[@ASMRyouVEGANyet]

This is from last year

[@sphumelelesijadu]

The last point you made is one of the first things that made me an Atheist. Heaven sounded so boring given that life is infinite. Why do anything when there's always a tomorrow? Funny enough now that I am an atheist, I think that if heaven exists, it would be such that boredom doesn't exist and that something good being done over and over again never gets old. Edit: I'm not an atheist because I think Heaven will be completely devoid of meaning or the sheer amount of boredom one would experience. I have much better reasons, such as the lack of evidence, not to believe in a heaven. So even if you were to give me a 'better' version of Heaven you still need to provide the necessary evidence that it even exists in the first place.

[@KaiHenningsen]

Whereas I think heaven would be hell eventually, even if it didn't start out that way (and it well might, lots of descriptions of heaven are really horrible) - but then, I was never not an atheist.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Like in The Good Place

[@thedragonofechigo7878]

Wouldn't still be mental torture in some sense to experience the same thing over again, never having to progress or be challenged. Good to see a south african as an atheist 👌🏽🇿🇦

[@anandhua.b4589]

So basically Alzheimer's

[@madnessoverload7824]

I've heard that in judaism they believe that once you die, you get reunited with God. You don't just keep your individual self and wander around in eternal boredom, but instead become part of something bigger, which sounds a lot more appealing.

[@Kanzu999]

These clips are gold. Keep up the great work man.

[@Mr.ICE-BEAR]

Doesn’t mean the purpose has any meaning just cause you feel it. Just chemicals in your brain making you feel good about the things you do.

[@Clif87]

I grew up a Christian nihilist. I believed in God, went to church, and even understood the gospel (mostly) on an intellectual level. Yet, for the life of me, I could not find any purpose, meaning, or place in life. I remember someone describing their experience with depression during a talk at church, which I was barely paying attention to, and I suddenly realised, that as they described depression, they described most of my existence up to that point. Dark thoughts, hopelessness, no direction, lack of concentration and motivation, etc., etc. I sincerely believed in heaven but it often felt like 'pie in the sky when you die', and in all honesty, it was more of a motivator to get away from this life as quickly as possible, than it was to do any good in the present. However, by my mid-twenties, I had already started to talk the Christian talk quite well, all the while walking an entirely different walk, a walk that more accurately fit my nihilistic tendencies. This led me down some dark paths, (excuse the lazy use of 'dark paths' but I don't want to go into details!) which in turn led me (by God's grace) to a realisation of myself. That is that I am horrible, not totally of course, there's a mixture of good in me, but the potential for evil was limitless if I could only damage my conscience more, which seemed easier and easier to do, you don't know until you try! Some people, (in their self-righteousness I might add) would see me as just a lesser person, someone more prone to badness. But, I remembered one afternoon, while starting to see myself for what I am, that this Jesus guy had mentioned he came to seek and save the lost, that it wasn't the healthy who needed a doctor but the sick and that he chose to go to the cross to save sinners. In short, I finally felt like a sinner. A real sinner, in desperate need of forgiveness and salvation. If you see no need for God or the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus, it's likely because you see yourself as quite a good person. You may well be, but as a warning, I saw myself as quite a good Christian lad who knew all the right things to say and do in front of other people, yet it was my private life that showed a fuller reality. You're not a good person if you just know how to hide the bad. Jesus forgives you of the bad in your life, and he leads you onto a path of dealing with it head on, not hiding, not excusing but a gracious new life. This alone, Christ alone, has taken away my nihilism and given purpose and meaning to my life. And the promise of eternal life. Not some shallow platitude of 'let's all coexist and be nice to each other'. This sounds good but it's the existential and spiritual equivalent of sending a tictac to feed a country ravaged by famine.

[@Clif87]

@@keithboynton I don’t know what you’ve been through, or experiences of yourself or others reading this. But I’m not dismissing those experiences. Why do you say in particular the last sentence is “not cool”?

[@user-vq6xc6zj5z]

Sending a tictac to a country ravaged by famine. I will quote that because this is exactly how this atheist advices on depression feel.

[@__-tz6xx]

I like playing games and have realized that meaning can be created just like the absurdity of an objective before it is made into a game and then has been given meaning. Life could just be seen as a collection of games because of the absurdity of it all and the mesocortical pathway. People start thinking about Nihilism because they have a functioning frontal cortex for higher thought and long term planning when you should think more about the reward system and how you can plan for constant novel rewards though long term planning and commitment to planned activities.

[@lorah3005]

#BoycottMeat and all other animal products of cruelty and exploitation in any way possible!

[@daveray5655]

I agree!

[@lorah3005]

@@daveray5655 Nice! 👍

[@thetrain47539]

I was born to a Christian family. I was never really Christian though. I was diagnosed with autism, so my parents prayed every day that God could "fix" me. There was nothing more offensive to me than that. I started to question God for this reason. When I admitted I was an atheist. I felt empty. But not for long. I started feeling purpose in my Chess Career. I was a young FM at the time. Now I feel only 2 purposes in life. Chess and my family. They're all I need to be happy. As a retired Grandmaster, I think I've got the chess part down. And as a father of 3 and grandpa in a few months from now, I think I also have the family part down. The best things in life come where you don't seek it. Your purpose will come to you when you stop looking for it, but not when you give up on it.

[@amaarquadri]

Imagine living your whole life being told that you will get 10 million dollars when you turn 30, and then one day you find out that it isn't true. I would be very surprised if that doesn't have a big negative impact on your mental wellbeing. Now replace 10 million dollars with an eternity in heaven and you understand why recent atheists struggle.

[@Needlestolearn]

Wouldn’t you find out in death wether you were right or wrong ?

[@sammcdermott78]

I’m only 16 but am extremely interested in theology and philosophy. I’m personally an atheist and don’t necessarily agree that all atheists lead to nihilism. I feel like it will happen more likely to those that do lose their faith as they are basically left in a state where they don’t even believe in what they have based on their life on. So on that basis I agree with him but I don’t think people who aren’t as ingrained into religion of any kind.

[@MichaelVFlowers]

I don't think that most people nowadays, when they're growing up, are told that life only has meaning if we believe in God. Most people, in Europe and North America at least, are either raised without religion or with only some very loose (nominal) association with it. Perhaps even more importantly, their education is totally secular. I plan to do some more videos on nihilism.

[@potts995]

Society is currently structured in such a way that it perpetuates traditional deistic religions like Christianity. There is a lot that we have to deal with as atheists due to stressors related to being a minority. I'd say atheists need to find more ways to build communities if they wish to have a more optimistic approach to life, even small steps can help. Infrastructure plays a key role, while atheists are vocal on the Internet, we need more on-the-ground approaches as well to build up sustainable communities. What we lack right now, I'd say, is that sustainability factor. It's currently hard to imagine what it would be like to have a stable and optimistic society without those religions, because we've been so conditioned to accept them as a requirement for a society to function.

[@Judah132]

"All theory is gray, my friend. But forever green is the tree of life." (Faust - Von Goethe, J. W.)

[@Joe-bw2ew]

Create your OWN meaning? Jack the Ripper did. What do you do when YOUR meaning conflicts with MY MEANING? WAR.

[@enigmaticphantom8389]

Pain... This is why I fight.

[@michaelrch]

The mention of Lawrence Fox made my skin crawl a little... Nice work Alex.

[@joshuasy10]

Straw man argument with no shortage of baseless presuppositions, this is no insult, this is just what i hear

[@richardmooney383]

Only the fanatically religious really believe in an eternal afterlife. If people really did believe they would not care about earthly suffering, whether their own or others', but clearly they do care. Their concern for the welfare on earth of sentient beings cannot be explained by reference to the will of the Christian God, whose only concern, according to the Bible, is that sufficient homage should be paid to Him. His behaviour, as reported in the Bible, certainly does not suggest that He has any concern for the welfare of his creation: if we are made in His image neither should we.

[@endarion1904]

There are so many intelligible and justifiable ways of giving meaning to your own life without the necessity of knowing what metaphysically grounds them. Once we accept we could be wrong about everything, humility is restored without the need for magical thinking.

[@donsample1002]

I can't think of anything more pointless than an eternity devoted to telling the greatest, most magnificent, wonderfullest being in the universe just how great, magnificent, and wonderful it is.

[@AurorXZ]

You're not alone. I suppose that's one reason why so many writers, theologians, and lay-believers have envisioned a paradisiacal future of "fulfilled activity"-i.e. manifesting the fullest of human potential as we participate in God's nature. C.S. Lewis followed such a tradition, positing that humanity will become like eternal gods and perform the creative and governing duties of deities. You see the shape of this thinking in various Second Temple and New Testament texts, variously describing the future human forms as eternal, honorable, and *powerful,* while also variously elevating the resurrected faithful to or above the level of the lower divine beings-angels-and giving them a judicial seat in the Divine Council. The future was a mystery and they couldn't agree on exactly what it was like, but they were decidedly of the belief it was thoroughly better and fulfilling.

[@user-vq6xc6zj5z]

This is what happens when people take language to literal. What the authors of the bible wanted to say is that you will be totally awstruck when you see paradise and hence be full of praise. It has nothing to do with beeing "forced" to praise, it's just a poetic way of describing a feeling you don't know yet.

[@gabejuhasz3743]

Well then there is the idea of reincarnation if I am reborn again as someone or something else but don't retain my memories then this could happen an infinite amount of times indefinitely. Each time it would feel like a new experience to myself and each life could be equally fulfilling.

[@enigmaticphantom8389]

The idea of reincarnation comes from religion(specifically Buddhism). Of course atheists don't believe that.

[@user-vq6xc6zj5z]

3:08 So this is what atheist mean when they say "I have only one life I want to make the most of it": Beeing an asshole and finally beeing able to freely show it to everyone without any consequences is the greatest "bliss" they have to offer. I can not proof there is a God. But at least you proofed that there is nothing of value in this philosophy for me. I actually thanks you for that.

[@malicant123]

I think that it's this is what leads to both hyper-individualism and the extreme fear of danger that saturates the West. If one believes that there is only one life, and that there is literally nothing to follow, then why would they not behave in an appalling manner whilst they're here? For me, it's better to believe that there is a God, and that he will hold me to task for what I do whilst I'm here. It's a healthier way to live.

[@dengelbrecht6428]

@@malicant123 When it comes to the effects of strengthend fear of death, there already is a study that proofs it is making people more aggressive and moraly judgmental. But one would not have needed a study to proof that possible side effect, common sense could have told one that.

[@seekingtruth4045]

Christianity is misrepresented here. I understand there are many denominations, but most believe that faith without good deeds is dead (James in NT) and thus does not lead to eternal life. Similarly, deeds are not good unless they are done out of love. So one cannot simply ignore loving others in this finite life because the infinite awaits, nor can they mindlessly follow rules without love. I suspect most Christians would still be saddened to hear they only have a year to live despite having more reason to hope as most people don't want to leave their loved ones. The real point is that the existence of God (the uncaused first cause, the necessary entity, the cause of all space, time, and matter, etc.) provides a logical foundation for objective morality and thus objective meaning. Alex has acknowledged previously in a debate that the existence of an objective moral standard would give a reasonable argument for God but he does not believe in such thing. So no objective meaning on his view, and even love comes into question as it depends on our definition of what is good. If someone says it is loving to beat his wife, is he right? Or is it not a right/wrong question because it's just subjective? In my experience, most people would say that the wife beater was wrong which leads me to conclude that objective morality better corresponds with reality and is therefore more probable.

[@milesmungo]

Couldn’t the “all you have” perpective also lead to hedonism? Furthermore, being told you have one day left to live doesn’t mean your bucket list has anything virtuous on it. The one guy mentioned telling people to “F off”; some people would likely take it further knowing they have no consequence (Breaking Bad).

[@user-vq6xc6zj5z]

There are scientific experiments already what happens when you confront people with death and make it more salient (and atheism is doing nothing else than that). They become more agressive and moraly judgmental. And than I hear a lot of atheist say " but yes of course we can be moral without a God". I think they a) seriously underestimate the problem of game theory aka the prisoneers dillema and they b) have no clue about the actual behaviour of our so called closest relatives. If you substract titi monkeys I personal do not know any monkey species which are not complete monsters. And with monsters I mean they behave like demons. I am really fascinated by the idea of the arheists that they can build any kind of true moral on THAT genetic heritage. Or maybe it's a new exercise in the philosophy of absurdism.

[@lauterunvollkommenheit4344]

Let's just all thank God that apostates aren't stoned, drowned, or burned to death anymore.

[@JM-us3fr]

Plus nihilism is not necessarily a bad thing, and even if it were, it’s not atheism per se that leads to nihilism, but rather leaving religion leads to difficulty coping with reality.

[@petermartell568]

having an all-[owerful god deciding on your eternal fate is the most nihilistic thing i can conceive

[@fcchannel6162]

again where do atheist get these idea's about god where in the bible does it say god decide where you go no where again the bible says what christ did is a free gift meaning you can take it or not your choice decide where you go god is a god love he's not going to force to do anything so again if you choose not to follow him not to believe in his word all of that was by your choice not his.

[@donthesitatebegin9283]

@@fcchannel6162 That's not exactly a rational argument. More like a shockingly suspicious, expedient paranoid conspiracy theory. You believe it because it is absurd and if it wasn't absurd, it wouldn't be Magical enough for you to believe it.

[@fcchannel6162]

@@donthesitatebegin9283 what?

[@jd2792]

@@fcchannel6162 in the bible its outright said god turn the heart of the pharroa cold so he would refuse mosses offer also every time the jews didnt trust god he summoned some other ruler to kill and enslave the jews only for the jews to kill and beat said ruler a few years later in job god is outright killed the entire famliy of job becuse of a dumb bet god treat our entire life as a game for him .

[@fcchannel6162]

@@jd2792 the atheist argument all in one but its just funny to me how you miss hosea you know when god tell his prophet to go in marry a hooker she cheated on him and how he bought her back to show the relationship between him and Isarel.

[@alexwilder8315]

I don't know, I feel the complete opposite. I feel like ever since I stopped being a Christian I am finally free to have my own hopes and dreams and desires. That was not available to me as a Christian woman. I have everything to live for now, whereas before I had nothing to lose because I was supposed to have given it all to God already. My life was so devoid of satisfaction and even just of simple sense, but now I get to make choices and I get to see the results. I make my own judgements and I get to colour my whole world with them. I just never experienced a nihilism at all. What I did suffer for about 6 years (very severely for the first few) was a total lack of moral codes and principles. Nobody had taught me how animals care for one another, and how I was an animal. I had to go on the internet and learn that all for myself. No one taught me that marriage is thought to be older even, than religion, so I thought that I HAD to be polyamorous and sexually open, because I thought that monogamy had simply been a fabrication of my religion. I had to go on the internet and learn that it's not, for myself. I totally lacked any understanding of how to run my life, fix my own boundaries and set my own standards. But meaning and wonder and specialness, rained down and was found in every joyous and painful moment of the traumatic process of withdrawing from my god-belief. And it continues to now. I absolutely wholeheartedly do not relate to this video at all.

[@shannaveganamcinnis-hurd405]

I totally hear what you’re saying, but I think that Alex agrees with you as well. He is only saying that if there is some sort of void felt, it is false because it is only there because of falsehoods and indoctrination put upon people. Glad you’re in a better place now. Are you vegan? Just curious as this often goes along with finding truth in the world as you spoke of with animals caring for each other etc. ❤️🌱❤️🌱❤️🌱❤️

[@bibaolaitan5189]

I never felt nihilism too. I guess because I never really did anything in my life up until I left religion because God said you shouldn't do so. I just did it because it felt right. I guess I never really had faith. I was just following the crowd.

[@qrx4057]

You confuse productivity with meaning. You might feel the urgency to do something but that doesn't necessarily bring about any meaning whatsoever. Read Tolstoy's a confession

[@RealDaveHelm]

Strong is the Hitchens in you, young one.

[@Jay_in_Japan]

Nietzsche wrote on this. The originator of the phrase "God is dead, and we have killed him"

[@iuliaionelapetcu1411]

Atheism does not neccesarily have to lead to nihilism. I am an atheist, but I do have 'faith' (not in the religious, spiritual sense). I have faith in the human race, in our progress that we could become elevated beings and transcend the limits of knowledge we struggle with now. Think about it, in a way, humanity has beaten death so many times, we have not found its opposite, immortality, but we found so many ways to prevent and delay it as much as possible. That in itself is a great achievment. When you look around and see so much chaos, mindless conflict, it does seem that the nihilism is the only logical conclusion to all of this. However, for me, I try to take a step back and look at the big picture, at humanity as whole. Our developpment as a species has been immense and if we manage some day to find at least some level of cooperation among all of us, I think we could achieve even greater things. This where my wishful thinkiny comes up, but my opinion is that the key to climbing to a higher level of existence, to being more than just political animals running around on our little planet, is for us *all* to find a way to see the others in ourselves, to all work together for the betterment of our species as a single cell. The collective is the individual and vice-versa. I'm not sure if I did a good job expressing my thoughts, but to gain more insight on this perspective I highly, highly recommend taking 10 minutes of your time and google Andy Weir's short story 'The Egg'. It's what made me see life with different eyes. Also, look up the Kardashev scale as well, Uneveiled has a great series of it here on KZbin.

[@naturalisted1714]

Look into Generic Subjective Continuity. Sam Harris recently did a podcast about it, "The Paradox of Death".

[@iuliaionelapetcu1411]

@@naturalisted1714 Hmm interesting, I'll look it up. Do you have a summary on it?

[@Mygoalwogel]

Sub-premise a: Hume's is-ought problem is unsolved (unsolvable?) in philosophy. Sub-premise b: Amoralism is the only Atheism that rejects ‘ought’, thus conforming to Occam's razor. Therefore: Amoralism is the only rational atheism. Major Premise: Amoralism is the only rational atheism. Minor Premise: (a) You believe in being rational. (b) You reject amoralism. Conclusion: You reject atheism.

[@bookishbrendan8875]

Perhaps, but one problem I see in my atheism (and atheism, in general) is that it becomes difficult to feel justified in any choice when faced with such an inevitability. As Alex says, we're destined to die. Today, tomorrow, eighty years from now, you will end. At least the theist can claim an actual end to aim for. The atheist, at best, can only appeal to the here and now as being something to lap up as quickly as we can prior to the void. But what's the point? What difference does it make if, inevitably, my existence will be snuffed out and *being*--at least for me--would cease, along with all experience, sense, consciousness and memory. There'd be no "me", and thus no past to be remembered. Ultimately, it makes little difference whether I live to a ripe old age or blow my brains out tomorrow morning. Same end of ends. This seems rob life of any motivation, in my opinion. Alex says we ought to cherish this life *because* it's finite. I say, why bother with cherishing anything, much less doing anything at all, since nothing will last anyways? What ought I aim for? Hedonism? Some kind of presentist aestheticism? Why? Russell says the same thing. But it always seems to beg the question.

[@McLovinCW]

I must say, I've never quite understood this line of thinking. Just because our lives are meaningless on the cosmic scale, doesn't render them meaningless to us. The human experience has value to the human experiencing it despite it's finite nature. You wouldn't sit down to watch a movie and then not bother because it will eventually end would you?

[@bookishbrendan8875]

@@McLovinCW I get what you’re saying, but that seems to be an improper analogy. Imagine watching a movie only to forget the whole thing the moment it ended. You could argue that the present experience of *watching* is still enjoyable, but it begs the question: why do we act? It seems to me that we act with the implicit expectation of certain ends. I drive to work expecting to arrive. I eat breakfast expecting to feel satisfied after a meal. Without this, action itself seems rather arbitrary, no?

[@McLovinCW]

@@bookishbrendan8875 What it all boils down to, for me at least, is this: even though my consciousness is finite, and there will be a time when I cease to think or feel or remember, I'm still here now. At this present moment I'm here with the ability to use my senses and experience things. If I stub my toe I have no choice but to feel the pain even though eventually I won't be alive to remember it. It doesn't hurt any less in the moment just because I know the moment is fleeting. I suppose what I'm trying to say, and perhaps not doing a great job of it, is that I'm along for the ride so I may as well enjoy it, even knowing it will end. The alternative, it seems to me, is hopeless nihilism.

[@thymelaka4758]

You assume life is enjoyable so worth living. But for many it's not. It's full of challenges and hardships. So how would you console a person in such circumstances? Why shouldn't he kill himself? Imagine a person surviving in a war torn country. He has nothing to enjoy, why shouldn't he kill himself? Why should he survive another day of challenges only to be killed by someone else?

[@bookishbrendan8875]

@@thymelaka4758 That’s the thing, I don’t assume. I know life entails suffering. My point wasn’t that we enjoy life or suffer, but that either is ultimately transitory and pointless given a material worldview. I share this worldview, I merely calling into question the same thing I struggle with; nihilism. What’s the point if there will come a time when everything, at least from my perspective, will end, and thus might as well seem to have never been in the first place.

[@anotherangrymonkey7435]

Reason becomes meaningless in a universe with no meaning. Any reason to get out of bed, meaningless.

[@faikerdogan2802]

🤷 can't relate. Heaven as a meaning always felt cheap anyways.

[@fletcher373]

I see alot of people saying they were religious but felt empty etc. Well i was baptised as a baby, went to church on Sundays and even went to Catholic school. So you could say i was religious but i never considered God. I was going through the motions. Only in the past couple of years have I started to find a relationship with God. That is the ultimate difference atheists always miss. Being so call religious and having a relationship with God are not always the same thing.

[@Hexsmasher2099]

I was born in a Christian family. However, unlike the rest of my family, I am not that devout, and church is not for me, yet my mother told me to go to church, I don’t find meaning at going to church or Christianity itself. I was born with Asperger Syndrome, yet my parents love me nonetheless. By the time I grew up as an adult, I began to see the darkness of Christianity, how some Christians used their faith and religion as way to force people in their beliefs and I how God is not all good because he has done heinous actions, that’s how I realized that God is not at all perfect and neither is his religion, and how the world is plagued by people who call themselves "God’s chosen ones”, which in turn, gave me a nihilistic and atheistic outlook on God and life itself. However, I still respect other religions, just skeptical of the absolutes that come with them.

[@avivastudios2311]

When you say 'absolutes' are you referring to the fact that God says that you should NEVER participate in certain acts?

[@JohnnyPlsCumMe]

Good thing you are becoming active again

[@47StormShadow]

And finally if you only think deeply about the idea of eternity than you will realize that, if every day you are becoming the kind of person that you will be for an eternity, than almost nothing matters more than what kind of person that actually is.

[@Brandon75689]

If you're an atheist. The void that you're missing that religious people don't choose to embrace (majority of the times) is a vast sea of knowledge. I mean knowledge of almost all topics and subjects. Even if it seems useless to you, you will come across a time when it can be used and if it doesn't, there will come a time when it will be enlightening to apply it and understand where other things have spawned from or originated. Culture and knowledge itself can be its own form of evolution. The more you understand history, origins of ideas, and language the more it can be composed and interwoven in a way that will be enlightening on its own. You will be a small entity on a small planet understanding your own roots while waiting for the answer of something much larger than yourself when that time comes. You might be sad that the answer won't arrive in your lifetime, but then you argue neither did God for many people.

[@Laguero]

Agree. Religion contains a rich, thousands year tradition of literature, philosophy, art, etc.

[@kangarooninja2594]

Life is precious and meaningful how, exactly? Everything I've found meaningful or valuable was a discovery, it shaped my conception of it, not the other way around. And if they existed before me, then where did they come from? Either they come from an ultimate and infinite source, or they're an invention of my mind, an illusion.

[@BarriosGroupie]

Why do we all take a 💩 a few times a week, despite it having no apparent meaning? Because we're driven by our fundamental need to seek a sense of 'well being'; and this comes from a variety of sources that we can choose from if we bother to look.

[@mubeenreminders7220]

When you say that there's no meaning behind what you do here if the afterlife is eternal, isn't the reality exactly the opposite, in that every single thing you do matters precisely BECAUSE it determines where you'll end up for eternity?

[@HYPERPEACE]

I told this story before. I was a child when I learnt of heaven and hell. Maybe 8 years old? One day I was standing in the kitchen at my grandmother's place, thinking about heaven, and about what made me feel good. I believed in God because of that. I wanted to believe there was a heaven. Then a thought came to my mind... what if I killed myself and went to heaven now? I was questioning what the point of waiting was. Why did I need to wait for eternity? Unfortunately I didn't have critical thinking back then, I kept believing in God and heaven, I fortunately never attempted to kill myself at that age, but realizing it now, I realize religion is fucking dangerous. That's why I'm an anti-theist now.

[@terminusadquem6981]

This is really disturbing. I have this thought too, back then. I thought at that time it was nice to go to heaven and imma kill myself, but I was afraid of the pain, so I didn't. 😆

[@x-popone6817]

Religion is not dangerous.

[@x-popone6817]

@Perturbed Atheist Source for that claim? Most wars have been wars over governmental dispures (ie. territory, etc). According to the Encylopedia of Wars, only about 7% of wars throughout history have been about religion. If we exclude Islam, it's only 3,2%.

[@anzov1n]

Religious rhetoric seems to equivocate on the definition of meaning. So apparently there needs to be some evaluation (good or evil) with some long term result (eternity in hell/heaven) for something to be meaningful. I don't see how this is any different from something simply being consequential. If I dedicate my life to setting a high score in a video game such that it stands until civilization collapses I meet the criteria - evaluation (Score) and long term (high score for eternity). Sure, the consequences are less significant but it's a matter of degrees. What is so categorically different about meaning in the religious sense?

[@johnnelligan7093]

Respectfully, wanting to get what things done and why? It will never matter what you did or didn't do IF there is no God.

[@Tupelo927]

Well done, Alex!

[@Mcfreddo]

Atheism does not lead to to rejection. Love and ethics exist regardless of any faith doctrine. Wild dogs populations will look after the injured, even though that injured dog in the family group won't fully recover from a bad injury, like a badly broken bone. Seen in Africa.

[@thymelaka4758]

I am sorry, according to Dawkins even a mother doesn't "love" her child. The mother is simply making sure she is propagating her genes. She looks after the child due to selfish reasons.

[@donthesitatebegin9283]

@@thymelaka4758 That's a false dichotomy straight out of your cartoon-like understanding.

[@shinywarm6906]

Odd - the opening question was about individualism, not nihilism. Although CS rightly pointed out that a lack of purpose is unrelated to the loss of religious belief, it's a shame the discussion did not take on that opening proposal. Neoliberal capitalism is predicated on the dissolution of human relationships, the idea that people are nothing but atomised components of the market and the assumption that nothing has value unless it can be commodified. Neoliberalism is the primary reason for the dissolution of any sense of community and shared purpose amongst the religious and non-religious alike.

[@Meccarox]

Facts.

[@nagranoth_]

It doesn't. Quite the contrary. The thought of some immoral monster in the sky manipulating you like a pawn does... the threat of that continuing for eternity in "heaven" is even worse. Nothing can have meaning there. Atheists on the other hand can have a multitude of meanings in their life.

[@wolfskrieger6779]

THE MEANING IS LIFE IS DEATH.

[@siphomnisi3842]

Is it not a. Case of finding meaning for yourself such as reading fictional books rather than listening to a deity

[@deczen47]

finding meaning in meaningless universe is contradiction.. this universe including us human will have meaning only if this universe is created with a purpose

[@02buddha02]

I dislike the juxtaposition of nihilism and religion. Let's just forget about religion. Everybody says you have to create your own value. This leaves the question of suicide as an awkward answer for someone that has a low prospect of improving their situation. The best way to rationally avoid suffering, would just be to give up. This is a terrible thought (imagine survivors in concentration camps, or those from the Atlantic slave trade or anyone else just decided to end their lives because they didn't have a likely chance of improving their station). In this case, it was their irrational faith in something that gave them strength to persevere. No rational subjective based morality or value system would suggest one should suffer for the sake of suffering. But history shows that you should hold on.

[@obiehive1236]

He's wrong. THe fact that we are going to die and all things come to an abrupt end makes life meaningless. There is nothing you can do that holds eternal weight. All we are doing is existing until its all over. Nothing we do in this life truly matters. At least that would be the case if atheism was in fact true.

[@exiledfrommyself]

When you have an infinite life, nothing warrants urgency. If you have a limited number of years, then there's more urgency to do the things you like and enjoy yourself.

[@obiehive1236]

@@exiledfrommyself It is true that there is a sense of urgency. But there is also a sense that whatever you do does not ultimately mean anything. Your wealth, you clothes, your accomplishments mean nothing because in the end you just die just like everybody else and that is the end of it.

[@exiledfrommyself]

@@obiehive1236 The rarity of anything including life makes it more valuable, more precious. There's an urgency to live your life to the fullest; to live your life enjoyably; to get things done and possibly make a mark. An infinite life would make life less valuable and more boring. There's no urgency to do anything. You could always do it at some later date.

[@aaronclarke7732]

@@exiledfrommyself would you take another thousand years if offered? I know I would. The yolo hypothesis does tend to strike me as making the best of a bad situation.

[@wishlist011]

I wouldn't expect to find meaning with "eternal weight". Something that merely encompasses my entire existence will do. I don't anticipate needing it after that.

[@thomasthompson6378]

I think Alex O'Connor is quite wrong to suggest that a medical diagnosis giving us only a very limited time to live would mean our lives would -- for that reason -- completely change. That may be true on rare occasions, but my own experience knowing a good many people in exactly that situation suggests it is unrealistic, particularly if (as is often the case) the individual is elderly. All of us know that "eternity," however we might attempt to define it, is virtually entirely unknowable. And that knowledge is something we've really known since childhood (Alex certainly has known it since that time).

[@47StormShadow]

Another point, how does one explain the fact that Christians are the most giving people on Earth if a consequence of our belief is that all that is transitory is meaningless? If that assertion were true than Christians would do nothing at all except wait for death and maybe even take steps to speed that process up. The divine structure really does support the notion of doing things for others and for ourselves in the here and now. What does not support that notion is the belief that everything exists through arbitrary events occurring in thoughtless matter. That belief lends itself to nothing at all, good or bad, the atheist needs to invent (or to believe that they invent) alternative ways if explaining why we should love and be loved that exist independently from our arbitrary origins and inevitable destiny of extinction. The problem there is that nothing exists independently from anything else.

[@naisa9705]

"You know the truth is that most ppl aren't smart enough to be an atheist because what they do is they make themselves the center of their universe but most ppl aren't intelligent enough or capable enough to do that. Most ppl are so unremarkable they can't make themselves the center of their own universe because there's nothing interesting about them or they aren't confident enough so they have to find meaning elsewhere and if they don't find elsewhere with God. They end up signing up to the new religion which is liberalism, nihilism, or any isms. So ppl are always religious to something. Being religious to God is far better than being religious to any options out there." -Andrew Tate

[@naisa9705]

there are moral atheists/agnostics, but there is no moral atheism/agnosticism. "The morality of nonreligious man has its source in religion, but in earlier, forgotten religion. The sun has set, but the warmth that radiates in the night comes from the sun." -Alija izetbegovic

[@Pyriold]

@@naisa9705 Morality is highly subjective i think. But lets try the thought that morality is god given: Then it's just a divine (soft) law, totally arbitrary. The answer for "is god moral" would always be true, because that would be the definition of moral. No matter what that god wants. And that for me just isn't enough.

[@hopeintruth5119]

Liberalism is a political philosophy, Nihilism is a life philosophy, religion is much more than a philosophy. So I don't get thar point

[@naisa9705]

@@hopeintruth5119 what is the definition of religion?

[@naisa9705]

@@Pyriold someone cannot have morality without religion. Even atheists that act morally do so because they were raised in a culture which derives its morality from religion.

[@waynemcauliffe2362]

Makes me feel happy as being atheist

[@spawncampe]

If I had an infinite amount of money, then the value of the money is seemingly worthless. So however long you have, you atleast no that time is worth something

[@luciocastro1418]

Although I resonate with the idea that religious indoctrination (coupled with the lack of education about the importance of relationships) is the main driver of the feeling of emptiness when you no longer believe in God, I think it does a disservice to the current mental health crisis if we as atheist don´t acknowledge the lack of proper spirituality that isn't tainted with religion and teocentrism. Personally, stoicism scratches that itch. Analytical idealism in my opinion currently is embarking in that territory

[@Orclin]

Having a family and a job will fulfill a vast majority of your needs.

[@KaiHenningsen]

Somehow, in over 61 years, I've never once missed spirituality, "proper" or otherwise. I completely fail to see the point.

[@aaronclarke7732]

@@Orclin what about a tribe?

[@luciocastro1418]

@@KaiHenningsen replace spirituality with purpose or meaning. A relationship with reality that trascends the mundane but also keeps you in the present

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@luciocastro1418 You know, I don't usually think about the "purpose" or "meaning" of life, either. I don't think those are very useful concepts. Now if you're talking short-term, that's different, but I don't think you were.

[@Mike_Jones281]

Nihilism never crossed my mind when I became an atheist. On the contrary, I was more nihilistic when I was a Christian. Why does anything when the big asshole upstairs apparently has a plan for you? Are you not, at that point, living a life where you are just going with the flow? To top it all off, some asshole with prayer could always come along and change reality to their whim, apparently, so what is the point of life at all?

[@henrilemoine3953]

I dislike the underlying deathist reasoning behind that argument. No, it’s not the knowledge that we’ll one day die that gives meaning and urgency to our lives. I want to do things that will change the world for the better not because I won’t be able to do them in a few decades, but because people are suffering *right now* and we can make it better for them rn if we try. My point is, death doesn’t give meaning to life, life gives meaning to life. I personally very much would prefer to live forever. I could do so much more things, experience so much more interesting things, etc.

[@heytherenordic7230]

As a person who happens to be an ex-Muslim atheist and rational person, I’ve been feeling/thinking about nihilism a lot lately. I’ve suffered my entire life and still do 24/7 with severe mental and physical illnesses and are felling nihilism aloe lately. It most likely is true.

[@donthesitatebegin9283]

Life can suck for sure. But you should just shut up and get with the game. Don't let yourself down.

[@sandro12370]

Yall guys have to take a hit of DMT and stop trying to look like intellectuals, because this is the kind of dialogue and mindset me and my 16yo friends had when we first became atheists

[@LouisGedo]

Excellent discussion

[@radicalskeptic8262]

never has something compelled me to complete my assignments than this video.. 💀

[@nevrynkinori3627]

Well. There is nothing that points in any direction but personal and public opinion and when we are not blindly told by some kind of belief or similar then we are free to decide what to do without restriction apart from consequences to ones own actions which can go any way depending on society and much more. I love how this video doesn't tell me what path to take.

[@uncleiroh2319]

as a former atheist i have come back to reminis about the old days, now i am a proud shia islamist

[@He.knows.nothing]

This is a necessary discourse that needs to be spoken more of within the deconstructing community. Nihilism is inevitable for most of us. When you deconstruct your faith, you trim away all the presuppositions you held in it. As you begin to cut them off, you lose your ability to conceptualize things like meaning, beauty, morality, purpose, and virtue as you realize that they were only ever presuppositions and that's all they'll ever be. That's where nihilism lives, in this void of any objective framework for understanding how you ought to fit into the world. This is where the "angry atheist" is born. They are discovering that they have been psychologically manipulated and abused and they are hurt, hey are angry, and rightfully so, but it is a sign for all of us that they need to heal and that we can be the people that help them to do it. We have to give them a community, not just to bash on religions, not just to justify atheism, but to grow and to understand themselves. When you discard your religion, you lose your community, you lose your ability to intimately connect with your family and friends. you understand them, but they're not going to want to understand you because it's necessary for them to believe that you're down the wrong path, that you've chosen to reject god and in doing so, you've rejected their own concepts of virtue, love, morality, beauty and you've enslaved yourself instead to the evil and selfish desires of the world. they will refuse to acknowledge how close minded they are. if you're lucky, you know another atheist that you can find comfort in talking to, but the chances are you were raised in an eco chamber of thought. Online is the best place, and sometimes the only place, for us to come to.

[@Eddyzz01]

i became atheist when i was 18-19 and felt nihilism, not depressed really, but i thought that whatever you do, life is meaningless anyway, that lead me to doing drugs, and partying, good time yes.But i was going nowhere, and if you reading this and expecting this story to change ,,oh i allowed Jesus into my heart and everything changed" no, no .. as i got older i realised that we as humans have moral duty to become better ourselves, and improve the lives of others.And to theists who says ,,you are atheist how do you know that?" Life experience my brothers and sisters, i dont need a God for that, to realise this, What i am saying is you need some kind of structure in your life ( for me stoicism really did that)

[@jeannedarc7533]

"Life experience my brothers and sisters" Exactly what the existentialists who opposed religious systems said, especially Nietzsche.

[@thymelaka4758]

How did you come to the conclusion that you have a moral duty? Heck, According to UK constitution you dont even have a duty to save a person from drowning even if it was within your powers to save that person. Religious folks have oral duties which they have foundations to justify. What's yours? No.offense, your statement above sounds Religious.

[@akbarkhattak6520]

Nietzsche writes, whats is nihilism? ‘ when values de-value themselves, Nihilism isn’t really an outlook of life its just that the values which we believe in have become empty.

[@fcchannel6162]

you believe in nihilism like a christian believe's in god just like you accept that as truth a christian accept the bible as truth.