Why Doesn't The Honda Civic Type R Have Torque Steer?

Here's Why The 2017 Honda Civic Type R Doesn't Have Torque Steer
Honda Civic Type R Review - • 2017 Honda Civic Type ...
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From The Honda Civic Type R Press Kit:
"Front and Rear Suspension - Specially equipped with an Adaptive Damper System (see below), the Civic Type R front and rear suspension systems provide exceptional handling that puts the new model at the top of its competitive segment, which includes benchmark American, European and Japanese sport-compact competitors.
In front, dual-axis struts contribute to the Type R's highly responsive steering, while also optimizing component packaging and crash performance. In back, a multi-link system provides exacting handling characteristics, while also helping maximize second-row seating and cargo space. Firmer spring and bushing rates, additional suspension camber and front steering caster, and stiffer front and rear stabilizer bars, sharpen turn-in response while minimizing body roll during cornering. The front and rear stabilizer bars are bonded to their mounting bushings and use low-friction connecting links for smoother operation.
While the new Type R suspension clearly has a keen sporting edge, it doesn't come at the expense of comfort. On the road, the Type R provides an accommodating cabin environment - along with the great cargo utility you would expect from its 5-door hatchback design.
Dual-Axis Strut Front Suspension
The dual-axis strut front suspension was designed especially for the Type R. It features aluminum knuckles, strut forks and lower arms, and has special geometry optimized for sport handling that includes more initial negative camber for crisper turn-in, and more caster, which adds stability. Although the front track is more than 2 inches wider than that of the Hatchback LX, a ¾-inch reduction in steering axis offset (each side) greatly reduces torque steer. The lower suspension arms are aluminum, and the Type R uses a 29.0mm tubular stabilizer bar.
The front spring rates are twice as stiff as those of the Civic Hatchback LX and the large diameter lightweight hollow stabilizer bar is 1.7-times stiffer. The specially tuned Adaptive Damper System (see below) helps the Type R excel on the street and track by allowing different, optimized damping curves that also adjust automatically to suit conditions while driving, based on steering input, lateral G and suspension stroke.
Multi-Link Rear Suspension
Specially tuned for the Type R, the multi-link rear suspension provides nimble handling in city driving, precise response for sport driving and emergency maneuvers, and the ultimate in track performance in the +R drive mode. Mounted on a rigid subframe, the system incorporates stamped-steel control arms, aluminum hub carriers and a 20.5mm solid stabilizer bar, which helps provide crisp turn-in along with body roll control.
Compared to the Civic Hatchback LX, unique rear suspension tuning for the new Civic Type R includes a 1.6-times higher spring rate, a 2.4-times higher stabilizer bar rate, and bushings that are over twice as firm. In addition, the Type R rear control arms are supremely rigid, the rear track is 1.2-inches wider, and more negative wheel camber is utilized - all to increase handling response, cornering agility and overall stability."
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[@EngineeringExplained]

Hope everyone's day is going well! As mentioned but not discussed in the video, there are reasons why you may not want a scrub radius of zero. I've explained that in a separate video for those who are curious about it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYanfniaZseAkKs Also, if you enjoy scrolling through photos on Instagram, consider following EE! It's not as exciting as Red Bull's page (by an exponential quantity), but ya just might learn something! instagram.com/engineeringexplained/

[@carlosvelasco1642]

Engineering Explained: basically Honda adopted the Ford Revoknuckle concept used in Mass Production for the Focus RS MK2

[@vookash81]

How is this different (better) in terms of steering from a multilink suspension? i.e. comfy Citroen C5 (2008-) has multilink with all the benefits like TypeR Honda or Focus RS advanced suspension.

[@avabro]

Why is everyone complaining that Honda copied this technology from people who did it in 2009, when Toyota were doing it back in the early 90s?

[@Folopolis]

Dilly O Not complaining, just pointing out

[@MrCapi55]

Thank You.

[@jasonl5589]

Man I'm telling you. If they made a stealth edition where the styling is subdued, I will buy this car.

[@EngineeringExplained]

+Jason Lee basically the new Honda Accord haha

[@herculesrockefeller2984]

+Jason Lee Exactly. I would buy this one for the performance, but I'm pushing 40 and this thing looks like a kid broke into a Lamborghini Dealership and Glued a bunch of Lambo panels to his Honda. I would feel silly driving this thing.

[@TheZeek011]

Hercules Rockefeller what do you think of the new Audi rs3?

[@QuakeGamerROTMG]

I miss the days of the Type R being a slightly sleeker version of a clean looking car, these things look like an early 2000's concept car made by a 15 year old.

[@timm.6391]

Just buy it and swap the normal civic parts and rebadge it..

[@STARDRIVE]

Another smaller benefit is that the wheel arch protrudes less into your cabin. The size of the arch can be reduced, since the wheel as a whole doesn't move forwards & backwards.

[@SilenceFictionxD]

Please explain the DSG fart sound!

[@Jack-wu3ie]

SilenceFiction well to change gear you have to lift off the throttle in a manual car. The DSG is an automated manual, still has clutches etc just has an ecu to control it all. And so to dissengage drive, the ecu cuts ignition for that split second whilst the gears are swapped, cutting ignition instead of fuel means that you get the popping/fart noises because theres still fuel being injected. And so travels down the hot exhaust, It's why DSG diesels dont fart, they dont have an ignition system do they. Does that help? Its my understanding of it anyway

[@ALMX5DP]

Jack Gedge I think you are for the most part correct. However I do recall a journalist asking a Mercedes AMG engineer about this and part of the reason was that they intentionally left fuel injectors on while simultaneously cutting ignition to give it that sound. I think some has to do with keeping modern turbo engines in boost, however if you compare AMG sounds to, say, a 911 Turbo S, the Turbo doesnt have nearly any "fart" sound since they likely cut both ignition and fuel.

[@kabob21]

Alan's correct, manufacturers intentionally delay timing on overrun to make the pop-pop-pop. Just some added theater.

[@Jack-wu3ie]

kabob21 on the over run you can use ignition timing as a form of anti lag. Wrc cars are upwards negative 50 degrees timing on overrun and they generate over a bar boost on idle! But they have boost actuators that are opening and closing the wastegate and injecting air, thats not turbo flutter it's these actuators injecting air

[@agentsmith1612]

The S1000 engine from BMW (S1000RR, S1000R and S1000XR) in motorbikes has this "fart" sound to (but no turbo) if you drive in dynamic mode. They call it "sound acoustics". It is very loud, every time I go of the throttle or shift down this sound will created out of the exhaust. There is no technical background, BMW integrated this only because some people feel cooler with this. For me it is annoying.

[@nickydrifts]

My 2005 Accord V6 is only making 240 at the crank but torque steers like crazy on a hard launch, they've come a long way.

[@tomaskjersgaard5325]

Actually the front suspension with zero offset is quite an old invention. The setup with negative offset is a newer invention that is now standard, because it helps to right the car under braking. The McPherson strut and floating caliber brakes are part of that negative offset invention. When you then want to revert to zero offset setup, you get an overly complicated suspension in my opinion. It's like two suspensions in one. Lets call it a hack.

[@mikegrady4]

The torque steer you felt in the corner is probably a combination of the 1) bump steer, because the suspension extended.....2) the Ackerman as the tires do not match the road radius perfectly, causing one tire, generally the inside to slip more because the outside tire has more force on it.....and 3)minimal torque steer. Drive a 1975 Saab 99 EMS if you want torque steer. It was my first car. It was horrible even though it had only 110ish HP.

[@danieldeaseweitzelwalker]

I personally love torque steer. Holding the wheel firmly and adjusting the angle of the wheels to fight the torque to keep it straight or point out of the turn is exhilarating. :)

[@charlesmiller6281]

The intermittent torque steer you noticed is probably due to a couple factors. Side loading causes the tire to squirm and shift the center of the tire patch relative to the wheel. Also the effect of suspension compression in the turn might change the geometry factors you mentioned. Street cars have bushings that compress, allowing geometry to change. Weight transfer combined with bumps and dips in the road can lead to some pretty big differences in geometry left to right. They could probably dial out even more of that. But then you get into the area you didn't want to get into in this video, steering feel.

[@fordgt2659]

If you haven't already, please make a video on traction control, differentials, and limited slip differentials.

[@markboersma8694]

They did it great! I almost ditched an xc-90 (because 400bhp) in the traffic light grand prix due to torque steer, it was really hard to keep it straight and the car could not cope with the power at all. Great solution from Honda, but how did they tackle the problems coming with a scrub radius of zero? Like steeringplay and making the steering nervous when locking up for example? Could you do a video on that?

[@dparker8419k]

I like this type of videos,learning about different aspects of different cars with pros and construction of why it's done is cool

[@LeMalenfant]

You get torque steer in that car flat out because all the torque in a turbocharged type r comes on later, so because it smoothly engages torque it prevents the power to steer abruptly contrary to n/a cars that get more torque steer in the lower rpm range 3k~, the range with the most torque for n/a as cylinders (n/a) have an easier time to completely fill with air before combustion

[@ReubenAStern]

When you adjust your seating position and it influences the car... that is twerk steer. Not to be confused with torque steer.

[@mikewill3176]

Because McPherson Strut suspension is archaic and provides a lackluster ride with lackluster performance. However with it being cheap to produce companies widespread use it.

[@kr2426]

I noticed torque steer more in cornering versus in the straight line after supercharging a V6 sedan I had.

[@foffplease3944]

Yes but it might be aided by the road characteristics a corner with camber will induce that feeling.

[@MrMiTyMarkTaylor]

Great torque steer explanation. Please link the car lift you used. Thanks!

[@Cooperd0g]

There is a tiny smudge on the lower left part of the Type R windshield as you are doing the corners. I thought it was a smudge on my screen. I was getting really annoyed that I couldn't get the smudge out until I realized it was on the car windshield and not my screen. Ha ha.

[@willardSpirit]

Those faux ducts..... but good video on describing how to eliminate torque steer

[@ALMX5DP]

Most modern cars have faux ducts. Sure these are very prominent and obvious, but still.

[@willardSpirit]

Alan Bowers yeah I know I see it all the time. I hate it. My 1st gen s2k has it but at least it doesn't encompass 80% of the frontal area

[@ALMX5DP]

Very true. I think in the CTR's case, it would be more aesthetically pleasing if they didnt obviously make it look like a honey comb grill, instead going with simple black plastic with a few ribs or something (like the foglight surrounds of a Focus ST or something).

[@k.c.slawncare6046]

Fact ducts are a fake styling design that always comes back. Ford used to put fake shark fins on the front quarter panels of their 77-79 Thunderbirds and Lincoln MK V's.

[@ALMX5DP]

Definitely. I think in the next 5-10 years that particular styling fad will once again fade away for a while (maybe for good with the rise of EVs).

[@stevetran365]

Hey, EE, I was wondering if you have ever done a video on tire sizing, and pros and cons of staggered tire setup. Audi RS3's can be spec'd with wider front tires, and idk what the performance benefits of this setup would be. I have also read on the forums that this can help with understeer by creating an oversteer effect for front biased cars. I have also read that this also causes uneven wear on the tires, and also increase chances of hydroplaning. etc. It would be real cool if I got a science explanation to confirm or deny some of these concepts. Maybe even explain tire wall ratios and all that.

[@papajim11]

Excellent video... just great visual info in there! Keep it up! Greetings from Greece!

[@PetrosV5]

Check the old 2004 Renault Megane RS. Similar kind of front suspension to eliminate torque-steer

[@TheEvanAndrews]

So the Type R spindle design has 3 ball joints, whereas the normal civic has only 1... I'm very interested in seeing how they hold up after 80-100k miles and how the camber or steering precision is affected.

[@SirtubalotTX]

Love your vids and I was wondering how this all fit together. One thing however, I think many people are just being pansies about torque steer. Seriously, people have been driving high powered front wheel drive cars for the longest.. in particular, the Honda tuner scene and I don't recall hearing any of them whine and complaining about it. lol. Torque steer is just a 'character flaw' that I accept when I have a fwd car with any appreciable power. I'm glad it can be mitigated in this fashion but It's just not a big deal to me.

[@nadamejazenterprisenadam]

honda deserve more credit for engineering..subaru and honda do extra when it comes to engineering

[@nexamax]

Add a Scorcher from aFe, engage R mode, and you'll find torque steer all day long... however briefly but worth the adrenaline :-)

[@DaRockCRX]

Noted in the comments before but that „torque steer“ is related to the lsd and actually its exactly what you want it to do. Pull the car in the corner. Otherwise you would get understeer and nobody wants that ...

[@solankiguddu7767]

What is devils steering and ackerman

[@383mazda]

solanki guddu It's that when you turn, the inside tire turns sharper than the outside.

[@stuna101a]

Watch out for Charlie's head on the road. I think this is where they filmed Hereditary, they may also be a Prince of hell symbol carved into one of those poles......

[@shs646]

Hi power front wheel drive just sounds funny.

[@KasamS]

Acureyt imo more fun going sideways in a rwd car than being quick af

[@ALMX5DP]

Kasam I like going fast personally. At the limit driving is exhilarating because it's a constant balancing act between grip and no grip.

[@numinous4789]

Then you probably think my 390/385 @ the wheels Speed 3 is pretty funny. I've had lots of "fast cars" thing it was funny too, until I pulled them. I let them catch up to me afterwards, and the dumbfounded look on their faces is priceless. Mind you, I realize 390whp isn't king-of-the-hill (even some Speeds are 800+ @ the wheels), but it's more than enough to hang with many a "fast" car. Besides that, I built it to be amazing in the twisties, and it really handles that goal well (pun intended).

[@strangeclouds7]

Acureyt Look up 1000 hp gti lol

[@shs646]

Numinous your a savage man. 300 hp. Jesus must suck you right into the seat. Lol

[@Poorschedriver]

Great video Jason, I particularly like the comparison to the base civic. It seems that honda has designed a McPherson strut suspension to mimic a traditional dual wishbone suspension, albeit, a very tightly compact one. The Type R's strut doesn't seem to rotate. I'd be interested to see how these suspension angles compared to the EK chassis civics which were the last dual wishbone cars.

[@rztrzt]

Where was the driving demonstration recorded? Reminds me a lot of the Karoo in South Africa.

[@allwinds3786]

A little different than my 77audi fox. When pulling away you better hang on!

[@nrhudec]

It's funny that they have basically reintroduced kingpins into front end suspension design, just with more clever geometry and fancier looking parts. Take a look at this side by side with an old school kingpin system and you'll see this isn't really revolutionary at all!

[@georgejin1764]

Such a great and educational video Jason! Go engineering nerds 🤓!!

[@Chris.Davies]

The correct way to solve the problem is to buy a proper car, with a good portion of the driving force going to the rear wheels. Why anyone interested in a sporting car would buy an FWD car is totally beyond me.

[@junxu7608]

Thank you for this excellent video, made it very easy to understand.

[@IconW]

Very well explained. Thanks.

[@maks886]

That Honda is really good looking

[@dthemiley]

Is it bad that I recognize that road almost instantly? Didnt know you where from Idaho.

[@mr.selfdestruct]

Wake me when they take this technology and put on the Prelude 2 Type R.

[@Theis2a]

What's the disadvantage? Why does the regular Civic not have this?

[@jamessullivan4979]

I had heard that on cars like my base model civic hatchback I have one short half shaft and one long one and no intermediate shaft so on the shorter side it seems to pull to that side when I launch. I thought that was torque steer

[@TheBudoinbatu]

Where was the driving filmed?

[@mannyechaluce3814]

another good reason to keep one's hand on the wheel while driving :D

[@MegaToxic3]

Add toe in on the rear tires and it counter acts torque steer. Did it on my gti and it has no torque steer.

[@susano7135]

Why don't 1000 horsepower FWD drag cars have torque steer?

[@kuraryuX]

Launching it with no hands, with zero tq steer!? That's impressive

[@tannercox4537]

Shows how little power it has

[@MrBatmanster]

@@tannercox4537 Yeah, 320HP in front wheel drive is very little...

[@Bbronson]

@@tannercox4537 most powerful turbo i4 vtec engine Honda has ever produced but yeah it’s little power lol

[@tannercox4537]

@@Bbronson okay it’s still slow relative to any real performance engine. If you want a fast car why would you waste your money on 4 cylinder car. Even with money in it your still gonna get gapped by a little 5.0 slow and that’s sad

[@FireManiac58]

@@tannercox4537 sure but it’s way more efficient and way lighter and way more fun on the track. Plus everything is subjective

[@sithlordsoup]

I got lost but watched the whole thing anyway.

[@insertnamehere4959]

Hey man, your videos are awesome.

[@felgercarb3803]

sithlordsoup Me too

[@gypsyemperor7535]

Renault was first with its perfo hub. Then ford with revoknuckle. Then vauxhall with hiperstrut. Honda basically late to the party.

[@CSIG1001]

Feel sorry for whoever Honda sells this car too

[@Maurice_Moss]

Tom New he said they weren't the first, but they executed it the best

[@BPEKSupraInteractive]

I get school girl giggles when I learn something new from Engineering Explained -- which is all the time.

[@EngineeringExplained]

Happy to hear it! Thanks for watching! :)

[@carib4ever248]

BPEK Supra Interactive I

[@OEMPlus]

im pretty impressed with honda's execution here. they're finally making the best FWD performance car again.

[@joseacuna3239]

*Renault enters the chat*

[@trantas4]

@@joseacuna3239 maybe when it's not broken...get the f out

[@RelaxAndSmokeMeth]

Renot!

[@derzzzz]

Funny how a video on torque steer helped me understand scrub radius better.

[@unphazd5137]

who

[@JasonMcMullen]

Honda Engineering Explained ;)

[@EngineeringExplained]

dosmastrify My point was that many of us KZbinrs don’t start out with 100% clear intentions of what we’re hoping to achieve. I started out thinking this would be very similar to “how stuff works.” Very quickly that became “how cars work” because they’re quite interesting to me, and things like scuba regulators (which I do have videos on) are not quite as interesting to me. The channel name is not always applicable, because not many of us know from the beginning what we’re doing, or whether or not we’ll have any success at it. Hope your day is going well! 👍

[@JasonMcMullen]

Just to clarify I love the Channel, keep up the good work brother Jason

[@Dread168]

The torque steer of a "normal" fwd car would have been cool to see in the video.

[@QuakeGamerROTMG]

Seeing the clip of him even launching the Civic and having no torque steer is really cool as someone who drives a FWD car every day. If you don't then you may not appreciate it as much.

[@SIMKINETICS]

As a retired mechanical engineer, ex-hotrod/autocrosser and a gearhead for over 60 years, I appreciate Jason's excellent, cogent descriptions of engineering brought into real-life experiences we can relate to! I'm not too proud to learn from a much younger engineer who researches, learns and teaches like this. Sometimes I watch Jason's videos twice to mentally capture his analyses because engineering is about understanding systems, how the individual pieces comprise a functional whole. Young viewers who also appreciate this content should consider the profession for themselves. What appears to be an insurmountable job to novices becomes easier with experience that begins with knowing that knowledge builds on itself.

[@nightowlrally]

Yep! The way my engineering professors taught me was that at first it's like you're fixing the same problem but by adding those experiences and technical knowledge, you're making a mental toolbox of sorts. The more tools you have, the more ways you can approach a problem.

[@markvicferrer]

I've been waiting on a technical explanation of this since reviews came out. Much appreciated. Now that Honda's figured out the best way to eliminate torque steer, do you picture a FF horsepower arms race? VW limited the Golf GTI with 210hp to reduce torque steer & it still consistently outperformed cars with high power but were hampered by torque steer.

[@kennyd7667]

Mark Ferrer yes I can actually see this happening of vw continue to make the golf GTi clubsport coz the normal GTi is nowhere near as serious as track car as a civic type r but yeah it could be possible. However Honda are in a nurburgring war with Renault (European company), and Seat (European as well) because these companies make cars that compete with each other for the fastest front wheel drive car around the nurburgring.

[@MJ_868]

Then they'd increase the price buddy so that's a no no

[@michaelmicallef668]

Hirlarious that everyone thinks Honda invented this tech. It’s a blatant copy of Renault’s Perfohub. Renaultsport have been using it to great effect in all their Megane R.S. cars... since 2004! The Mk 2 Ford Focus R.S. copied the Renault’s design and called it Revoknuckle... in 2009!

[@vombsmotorsport]

And toyota used it one the Celica rally car in 96 :D called Superstrut, its nothing new

[@niurou]

So that means don't mess with the offsets and spacers on this car.

[@ALMX5DP]

In general yes, but sometimes the benefits of a wider track/contact patch outweigh any detriment to scrub radius and the like.

[@ParkerOviedo]

As long as you have he proper offset you can go wider and still have a similar center point and stick out more on the inside and out

[@Candisa]

Parker Oviedo You do that by not messing with the offset and spacers, unless you do both in a way that cancels eachother out (which is inferior to just using wheels with factory offset).

[@mikewest712]

Tell that to camber guys

[@numinous4789]

Yep. And getting wider tires must be done on wheels with the exact same offset. Your limit of width, therefore, will likely be inbound-side related.

[@klutzycarlover]

Would this have any advantages over double A-arm? Other than packaging of course. Thanks for another excellent video! Props for putting it on the lift and showing us in depth.

[@daemn42]

That tendency to hold the steering angle under power coming out of a turn, is *not* steering geometry induced torque steer. It's a side effect of the helical gear limited slip (really torque biasing) differential. Anyone who's had a Quaife, Peloquin or other torsen style differential on a high powered front wheel drive car will confirm this. I had one on my supercharged 98 GTI VR6 and it did exactly the same thing in turns. It did not do that before the diff. It also tends to hold the steering steady during hard straight line acceleration so you may be attributing a bit too much to their tricky steering geometry for that test as well.

[@PapotsGarage]

Just explained this in my comment, glad I'm not the only one ;) + you add the AHA from Honda and you have this kind of sensation in the steering wheel.

[@chasehelm4083]

Just thought this too. The LSD is what kept the wheel in place during the turn not torque steer. My 08 Si has an aftermarket LSD and holds a turning track when under hard accel in sweeping turns.

[@destrega984]

Have a sentra spec v (helical torsen diff) can confirm

[@avrilcadabra]

I just commented this also, I notice the same thing since installing a helical LSD (mfactory) in my fwd. It did not do it with open diff. Kind of helps you turn, but you can notice it resisting a lot powering through a tight s or slalom situation.

[@gaspererjavec7108]

I have a 1.8vti that has a torsen LSD and can also confirm

[@rehlo3]

In FWD cars the torque difference at the wheels can cause steering problems, in RWD it can cause living problems :D (joke)

[@mbsnyderc]

They both can cause living problems.

[@doc.voltold4232]

mbsnyderc ehhh i drove both. RWD is harder to control

[@johnny-bracer6515]

+Doc. Volt ......not if you were born in the 1960's like me, steering is way easier to me in a RWD while spinning because you don't lose your steering. a matter of experience, opinion and generation i suppose

[@rubensantana8601]

Johnny-B Racer born in 97 but agree with you

[@morris4069]

Johnny-B Racer Yep it’s just a different feel how the different drive systems rotate when cornering under power. I’d say awd would be the hardest to get used to in how it likes to go straight sideways till you let up some. Fwd similar in that gaining traction again by letting up but still rotates around the inside tire. Blind faith and more power will corner well still. Rwd, there’s a reason the fastest cars use this system. That rear inside rotation just works, a little counter steer and again more power is your friend if you have the 😁😁 to get it done. I’d say the best system being an awd with a one way front differential, just slightly under driven. Best of both worlds, drives like rwd, execelerates like awd and hard cornering under lots of power pulls the front in. I believe the C11 turbo use a system like this? Or my personal experience or racing R/C touring cars 10yrs ago.

[@hayksamvelyan]

It's interesting to see the side by side view of Type R vs Base Civic. Really shows how different the suspension is. In particular, what stood out to me is the double anti-sway bar links (never seen that before) on the Type R and the much beefier lower control arm, in addition to all the other changes.

[@catsspat]

It also allows them to put a larger wheel/tire in the same size wheel well because the tire just rotates in the same spot, instead of moving around in an arc as you turn. But of course, this video isn't about that.

[@kabob21]

I kinda wish Honda had stuck with 19" wheels and tires in the Type R. Mine is pretty comfortable but 20" wheels with rubber band tires makes the car a little rougher ride than necessary even with the shocks set in Comfort mode.

[@Javierm0n0]

So u can start accelerating a little earlier, technically and the torque steer won't be a total drag? Am I understanding the torquesteer Dynamics of this car specifically, correctly?

[@kabob21]

The torque steer in the scenario described wouldn't be consistent enough to rely on to "aid" in track driving. You want the ability to start accelerating earlier out of a turn, get stickier tires. Although truthfully, the stock Continental SportContact 6 tires are probably one of the best street tires I've ever driven on.

[@lolzordje123]

Torque not lost to torque steer, goes straight to accelerating torque.

[@subzero-ku2wx]

No. It's actually the opposite. The more the wheel is turned while accelerating the more torque steer you will get. Thus when you've just passed the apex the torque steer will be worse on throttle than if you wait till the wheels straighten out a bit before giving it more throttle.

[@hallijib]

Love the car but those fake vents give me the shits. Great video thou.

[@scottandrews4822]

They're not fake. They are called air curtains and they help to smooth the airflow on the front of the car ; the air is kept closer to the body this way, which results in a smoother airflow pattern and, as a result, better aerodynamics and theoretically better top speed and fuel economy.

[@ThisUserNameShudWork]

haha blurred out speedo

[@nermket4849]

hot

[@iLupi]

"We were doing a blistering 55Mph" *clearly doing 100+ with a digital readout of 55* good ol top gear

[@ducfandan1117]

Great explanation. In short, they did as well as you can trying to “fix” a FWD platform for higher power... but it will always be compromised because of the architecture fundamentals. This is why my 400+HP car is a longitudinal engine with RWD. ;-)

[@saywhat9158]

Funny how all the "racing" cars choose drilled rotors when we've learned that it is primarily aesthetic instead of the more functional and stronger slotted rotors. I do wonder about how much weight reduction this brings as a side benefit to the looks though.

[@roguetorino]

not enough to mater. personally i prefer solid discs

[@kolourblind3124]

Well it wud be rotational mass so 2.2 pds of rotational mass is the equivalent of 33pds of overall weight.i still wouldn’t get drilled only slotted rotors for me.

[@angelmonroy9644]

I heard that drilled rotors suck but ones with holes cast into them being made don’t

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

EE, fantastic diagrams and explanation of steering geometry! Honda engineers definitely did their homework on this car. Can you clarify why unequal-length CV shafts cause torque steer on FWD cars?

[@Kaputt512]

Create a video about naturally aspirated engines vs turbocharged vs supercharged! Torque curve differences, how they feel, etc

[@rafaelrp07]

Your idea is cool! but..There's too much to say about the difference among these engines that one video wouldn't be enough. Look, if you're going to talk about turbos you'll have to explain why they were used only for high performance cars and now you can see in VW Up! to make it more efficient. Explain this in detail would take a several minutes and then compare old school tubos with newest ones and explore torque curves, the feel (newest trans also play a role in it)already is a subject for one video.

[@gypsyemperor7535]

Renault was first with its perfo hub. Then ford with revoknuckle. Then vauxhall with hiperstrut. Honda basically late to the party.

[@Candisa]

A good copy is better than a bad invention. :)

[@glennmccabe983]

Peugeot had this on its 407 a good while before Renault

[@asthalis]

it did even on a basic 407 whereas today only the most powerful 508 are equipped with such a front suspension

[@glennmccabe983]

As far as I've seen its still used in all models of the Citroen c5

[@spindedark]

My 1997 passat already had a solution for this long before the 407, use a longitudinal engine lol.

[@Polorigolo35]

You should check the Citroën DS, SM and GS front wheel geometry! The scrub radius and the spindle lenght are actually non-existent due to the inboard brakes ^^

[@JogBird]

with power/electronic steering, is it possible to program it to automatically compensate for torque steer

[@DrewLSsix]

JogBird probably, but its going to likely be reactive and thus limited and it will tend to reduce road feel.

[@DrewLSsix]

Fozee Black. Learning how to drive doesnt eliminate torque steer.

[@harryazzole7814]

Fozee Black torque steer can't be eliminated no matter how good of a driver you are. It's a mechanical property. No matter what, if it presents itself it will make lap times slower and make for a shitty car. Ask the EG and EK Civic track community.

[@youngmauro12]

JogBird I’m pretty sure the type R does this. Also applies single wheel breaking. He didn’t talk about it.

[@DutchFocusST]

Ford RevoKnuckle :)

[@kabob21]

Yes, Honda's suspension setup here is very similar to RevoKnuckle.

[@fakealexstrong]

Yup. 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[@Hybris51129]

The original.

[@gypsyemperor7535]

Renault was first with its perfo hub. Then ford with revoknuckle. Then vauxhall with hiperstrut. Honda basically late to the party.

[@glennmccabe983]

As far as I know Peugeot was first with the revo knuckle(sorry I don't know Peugeots name for it) on the 407, they still use it on some 508s but it's mostly on the c5, it was a good design and with the double wishbone aswell it gave an excellent contact patch but it gave a lot of trouble with the swivel bearings

[@SINIS0RSA]

Why doesn't Civics have torque steer? -They don't have any torque.

[@johnny-bracer6515]

lol

[@LordFokas]

I came here and kept scrolling exactly expecting to find this comment.

[@EngineeringExplained]

+Niklas more than the Golf R and STI.

[@johnny-bracer6515]

+Engineering Explained ....how was the shifting? you looked pretty smooth in the launch

[@johnny-bracer6515]

+Engineering Explained ... if you to get one of these, would you buy the new Type-R over a new STI?

[@nk4e]

That car lift though

[@aoescool]

yeah after having a swell time today lifting my car, thats the first thing i notice in the video and im like i want it!!!

[@brendanharris9197]

Anyone know what it is?

[@st_us]

Citroen has done it since the 60's in all their Hydroactive suspension cars. too Bad America never had those cars :(

[@csuzdigabor8479]

I don't know about newer models, but pre-PSA (Pre 1980s) Citroëns didn't have torque steer. The half shafts were equal length and they had center-point steering geometry (DS, GS, SM). No torque steer whatsoever, and in case of a front wheel blowout, the car just continued to go in a straight line. And this was like 4-5 decades ago...

[@ALEX-sh3tx]

I kinda like torque steer

[@gordonjcp]

Back in the 1970s the Citroẽn GS and GSA (and indeed the Citroẽn 2CV and Dyanes, not that they had much torque to show up the problem) achieved this with inboard front brakes leaving the hub free of all that messy clutter, and leaving room for very large brake discs.

[@AZIFMIKAYRE]

What car lift is that

[@ALMX5DP]

I believe it's a Ranger QuickJack.

[@onetirefire1]

actually... I like a little bit of torque steer from time to time :-D

[@EngineeringExplained]

Haha, what is desirable about a steering wheel not doing what you ask of it? I mean it's a bit of a fight I suppose, which could be intriguing, but from a driving standpoint it seems to be a flaw.

[@onetirefire1]

I agree 100% with you on that intriguing / flaw standpoint. It's just the fascination on a, let's say 200hp+ FWD car that you can FEEL the power... not only by going forward but the car wanting to go in another direction as well... Then again... you still have control over it via the steering wheel, so I don't think of it as too much of a problem really (other than the fact that it's a little lost power for acceleration). However i'm a "car guy" (with a '90 Taurus SHO) so i'm kinda used to it...

[@thatguy9171]

Even my Dacia Berlina form 1990 with 45hp has torque steer. It won't go straight for 1m sooo Dacia has more tq than the civic :)))

[@nyftn]

lol

[@PaulHojda]

Those old Dacias had double wishbone front suspension....which is theory is more sophisticated than this civic's

[@dvirus2000]

Paul Hojda with the spring rate of a water bed :)

[@PaulHojda]

That's putting it "softly" ;)

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

you still have a running example of one of those? they shoot up in value like crazy! better restore it, it's gonna cost more than a nice bmw in 10 years!

[@herculesrockefeller2984]

Honda should throw this engine in a CRV with a bad ass AWD Transmission and make a Special Edition Rally CRV-'R' or something. No? Screw you, CRV's are awesome

[@ArtemLokhovitskiy]

Hercules Rockefeller all wheel drive hrv (yes, not crv) with 300hp and manual transmission. I will buy it right away :)

[@ericwilliamson263]

yeah they are. the old ones you could swap b series motors into and do all sorts of stuff to.

[@kurttappe]

That would make the CR-V a roll-over trap like the Lexus used to be. Just....nope.

[@derbigpr500]

So many people who don't understand why it's FWD and not AWD. No, it shouldn't have been AWD. FWD is superior to AWD in hot hatches. FWD hot hatches are kinda like Porsche 911's. Their setup doesn't make sense on paper and it makes it hard to believe it would work, but in practice it's magical when done right. Every hot hatch out there that's FWD drives nicer and handles better than AWD competitors. Best hot hatches? All FWD. Even the Golf GTI CS handles better than the Golf R and is faster on a track despite being FWD and having less power and torque. People don't understand how good FWD cars can be. Mostly americans watch this channel, and americans NEVER, I repeat, NEVER even saw a good FWD car in person, let alone drove one, because there was never a really good FWD model on the market, so you can't know what makes them so good. The first one was actually when Ford decided to bring the EU Ford models to the US, Focus and Fiesta ST only a couple of years ago, so you don't understand the decades long tradition of hot hatches that we have in EU and that is present in Japan too. All the best hot hatches of all times were FWD cars, and they genuinely drive and handle as good as the best supercars out there. Chris Harris ranked the Renault Megane RS Trophy as the best car next to the Ferrari 458 Speciale when he did his best drivers car of the year show, and he had Porsches, Lambos, BMW's, Jags, etc. at that gathering. A FWD hatchback put on the same level as a track focused mid engined Ferrari and above far more powerful AWD and RWD cars for sheer handling precision, involvement and fun. Ever wonder why a 250-300hp hatchback with FWD is faster on a track than a 500+ hp RWD or AWD car with the same weight or even lighter? The combination of a lot of weight on the front wheels with very complex suspension geometries and very advanced diffs means you have LIMITLESS grip on the front tires, and it allows you to make the rear end of the car behave exactly as you want to because the front is so predictable. You'll never drive any other type of car that has the ferocity and sticks to the road into the corners and out of them as well as a FWD hot hatchback does, a properly set up one drives like it's on rails.

[@felicelamanna3654]

derbigpr500 isn't it totally backward that mostly all of the coolest cars, not meant for commuting but for pure driving enjoyment, are rwd. Mercedes, bmw lexus etc. do not make high end fwd. Even in auto sport fwd are moded to awd in most cases. I can't imagine fwd top fuel dragster, f1 or Nascar (which toyota has a rwd).

[@brassmonkey0300]

save yourself 7 minutes he said why in the first 30 seconds, the civic type r doesnt have torque steer because it only happens in high power fwd vehicles.

[@TheJacobshapiro]

It still should've been AWD. I don't get why they decided it shouldn't be when all of its competitors are.

[@doc.voltold4232]

TheJacobShapiro heritage. all older civic r were FWD

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

money. the competitors have more power for slightly more money. if they put awd it would cost the same as others and be heavier, and put less power to the ground. it would lose it's edge.

[@rehlo3]

FWD is also slightly more efficient than AWD, maybe that could be one of the factors

[@InFamousDmac]

All civics ALL civics have been fwd. They beat the competition before with fwd and still are now. Why change?

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

basically what i was saying. by ditching the awd you cut down on costs and weight and you get better mpg and power to the tire.

[@TJ85234]

Because it has no tq.

[@ngokhanh7291]

Tj C but more torque than a Subaru WRX STI ;)

[@Cafe_TTV]

Don't take the bait from this troll.

[@jza80_mkiv]

😂😂

[@GordieC1982]

Hur dur. Clown.

[@chek1n]

lol goteem

[@ThaDutchDK1989]

uhmmm. renault/ford had this already in 2004.. but yeah the japanese cant think thereselve..

[@KXP70]

ThaDutchDK1989 the EK9 Civic Type R had it's steering axis separated from the strut as well. Don't disrespect Japanese engineers.

[@ThaDutchDK1989]

it wasnt the same system paulwalker.. i know how it looked.. and its different further why should i respect them if they boost about there supspension even tough its from renault /ford and already 13 years old.. go watch 2f2f

[@ericwilliamson263]

hey kiddo. what did the ford rs run the ring in? now how about this honda? know your place. if senna was willing to work with them on developing the nsx then i think they know a thing or two more than you.

[@michaelmicallef668]

Hirlarious that everyone thinks Honda invented this tech. It’s a blatant copy of Renault’s Perfohub. Renaultsport have been using it to great effect in all their Megane R.S. cars... since 2004! The Mk 2 Ford Focus R.S. copied the Renault’s design and called it Revoknuckle... in 2009!

[@silverspear21]

I think you are on your own here, nobody thinks Honda invented this and in the video he even mentions that others use this tech.

[@KXP70]

The EK9 Civic Type R had it's steering axis separated from the strut. I believe that was made before the Renault's you mentioned.

[@pswmetalmonkey]

Yea Honda didnt invent it, but they mastered it compared too all the others, bravo Honda

[@lollmao9199]

you the only one who think that bro , honda is just doing its things ,

[@pedrofernandez3893]

I am fascinated by how some of the Japanese OEM's use this new modular chassis to make various vehicles out of the same basic architecture and how it is different from others use and what they used to do before, could you do a brief video explaining this?

[@docfink]

Great explanation of how this car diminishes torque steer. As an owner of a Type R, I experience the same "hold-steer" effect in those high-speed turns/on-ramps, etc. It's amazing engineering and a blast to drive.

[@CoalitionGaming]

The front suspension setup reminds me of the C-Hub and steering knuckle setup of hobby grade RC cars that people race at tracks.

[@itsalgud1459]

I thought I had a pretty good understanding of torque steer since I had my 84 Dodge Daytona turbo, which had a lot of it, but this certainly explained it in much more detail. Thanks as always Jason!😊

[@BrianNC81]

The better solution would be to make a rear wheel drive type R. No torque steer and you could power drift. It would be difficult to go back to a FWD performance car after owning RWD.

[@doubleoazn03]

Question, 3 years later after this video lol. I lowered my car on coilovers and had my stock factory wheels on. Drives fine after being lowered. I then installed some 25mm wheel spacers and put some new wheels with new tires. So I went from some 16x6.5 with 205/55/16 tires to a 17x7 with 225/45/17s. Put the spacers due to the offset and I wanted the wheels to be flush with the body of the car. Now the car feels like it sways lightly from left to right at hwy speeds. I made sure I bought hub centric spacers and I torqued the spacers and wheel to spec. What could give it that feeling of lightly wanting to sway left to right at hwy speeds on the freeway? The new tires I bought I think has a softer sidewall. Could that be a problem?

[@darielperez4483]

Could be your wheels aren't balanced (in terms of mass)

[@NicholasPhamLol]

Did you do wheel alignment after all the mods?

[@paulstandaert5709]

Great video. Way back in the day, the marketing campaigns tried to tell everyone that torque steer was the result of inequal length drive axles. I've proved long ago that it is not true because it made no difference going from equal length to unequal length. But in either case, I've driven some pretty fast front drive cars that were built 25 years before the 2017 Civic was even thought about, and it has never been a problem.

[@MeorHariz]

I drive a fairly low 90HP - 100HP front-wheel drive car. I initially suspected something wrong with the alignment, the camber, the tie rod etc. but the car is fairly new as it is only 6 months old. It's annoying and dangerous as the torque steer kicks in randomly at wide or long corners. It simulates the feel of an understeer but I can tell that's not an understeer as the tires are fresh and how it pulls feel different. My question is, is there any way to significantly reduce torque steer? Will better tires help? Will more negative camber reduce it? I have coilovers on and when it was low it was barely there but once I slightly raised it, it came back.

[@teamklr2bar]

Does the Type R have an electric steering rack? That could be a big factor too

[@avrilcadabra]

That feeling of it not self centering mid corner, my fwd did not do that with a open diff, but does it with a helical LSD installed. The type-R has an E-LSD I think, but maybe it influences that.