Why Don't You Sing Your Own Lyrics?! (w/Martin Popoff)

Join Pete Pardo & Martin Popoff as they discuss singers who rarely if ever contribute lyrics to their band.
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[@WhizzRichardThompson]

I'm surprised Elton John wasn't mentioned.

[@Ianmackable]

Elton has always frankly admitted that he tried writing lyrics but was terrible at it. So when he found a partnership that worked (and holy cow, did it ever work!) he was happy to go that way.

[@jamesbeach6750]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Elton and Bernie Taupin. One of the best teams of all time. John wrote the music around Taupin's lyrics. That 70s run together was amazing for them.

[@damiankarras]

70-75 only

[@Ianmackable]

@@damiankarras Nine studio albums in "only" that six-year span, though, one of those a double, all of them showing incredible range. (Also a soundtrack and a pretty good live album.)

[@Hecatecrossways]

I'm mentioning Elton ( Archibald )John. Prior to his solo career, He auditioned to play keyboards for Gentle Giant. They turned him down flat.

[@BrianRobbins2]

Hey Pete, I have a good show idea for you and Martin: Would an album still be regarded as a classic if it was missing one song? For example: would Judas Priests stained class be considered a classic still if it was missing “Exciter”?

[@robertmarles9665]

Rainbow Rising without Stargazer is another candidate IMO.

[@SH-ud8wd]

Orgasmatron without title tune

[@Nocturnal_Spectre]

Ace of Spades without the title track

[@Nocturnal_Spectre]

I really like the idea although I have to ask: Do you mean regarded as a classic by Martin and Pete or by the general public. Take "ace of spades" for instance (which I mentioned in this comment thread). For Martin and Pete, they might love 10 of the songs (just an example) on the album and there for regard it as a classic album, where as a more casual listener would also regard the album as a classic but only based on the strength of the title track. I hope I made myself clear and I'm not trying to be pedantic, I just think it's an important distinction to make. Cheers🍻

[@BrianRobbins2]

@@robertmarles9665 you got it exactly right!

[@63mckenzie]

Geddy wrote the words and music to one of my favourite RUSH songs ; Tears.

[@kendetulio4009]

Also penned Cinderella Man. I love it.

[@glenfinston704]

@@kendetulio4009Right on Farewell to Kings!

[@glenfinston704]

Love Tears as well as all 2112 B sides!

[@TheRealDannAlexander]

Then there’s the poetic magic of “Take a Friend”…… 😂 but I have to say the lyrics on most of the songs on “My Favourite Headache” are great.

[@JIF882]

He also wrote Different Strings.

[@donhadfield2835]

Another one is Procol Harum. Keith Reid wrote intriguing lyrics for all their albums (except one). He did appear on stage on occasion to recite some spoken word stuff.

[@asdfzxcv3617]

Yes, Reid was great.

[@gregwatson3300]

Cheap Trick took a page from The Who, with guitarist Rick Nielson writing everything. I always wondered why Robin Zander and Tom Petersson didn't give it a go. Interestingly, one of the rare instances of Robin Zander contributing is "I Can't Take It," which I have always loved.

[@david.leikam]

I think Rush worked in part because the drummer wrote the lyrics and guitarists did the music, which also balanced the business side of royalties, etc. (unlike Cream). 🎶

[@brotherhoodoflightshowcurr3318]

In an interview with David Coverdale, he was writing lyrics for the song "Burn".David mentions he brought three or four sets of different lyrics, and Richie Blackmore picked out the ones that they actually used on the song. Pretty obvious that Ronnie James Dio wrote his own lyrics. Joe Lynn Turner in an interview, said he showed up with lyrics Richie Blackmore called it, Joe’s bag of lyrics.

[@NigelSmith66]

While Annie Haslam was writing lyrics by the time of "Symphony Of Light" - and possibly "Tuscany" - both post 2000 albums, for the majority of Renaissance's classic period 1972-79, she was singing Betty Thatcher's lyrics. I have no problem at all with this. In her prime, Annie had the voice of an angel and even if she'd been singing about the end of the world, it would have sounded beautiful. And anyway, take a song like "Trip To The Fair" as an example. The story I've heard is that Annie told Betty her first date with Roy Wood was going to be a trip to the fair. So Betty told Annie to tell her all about the date afterwards. So I'm guessing that the lyrics were inspired by Annie's account of the day, but arranged by Betty Thatcher who was, after all, described as a Cornish poetess. And many of her Renaissance lyrics did indeed sound like poetry.

[@michaelbaucom4019]

Kansas' best lyrics were written by Kerry Livgren, who wasn't the singer

[@asdfzxcv3617]

Yes, true.

[@rick063092]

Love the catch up convos on SoT shows .. Weather w/ Martin and beer selections with the Uk Connection.. always a great way to spend a Friday morning..

[@noheamike5036]

Steve Winwood solo and Traffic. Jim Capaldi wrote lyrics for Traffic and used outside writers on his solo work.

[@powrnap]

Agree on BOC. It works! Also agree there are many nuggets they wrote themselves - Marshall Plan In Thee, Hot Rails To Hell, Feel The Thunder, Godzilla, Divine Wind, I Love The Night, Vengeance, Last Days of May, The Reaper, Wings Wetted Down, Don’t Turn Your Back, etc

[@andrewcarr5923]

Totally of topic here, I've just watched Focus - Hocus Pocus on Midnight Special '73 its tantamount to Prog Thrash, take a look absolutely brilliant.

[@nickvickers3486]

They were a really cool band!

[@stevehartke]

That performance is nuts… heard the story was, other acts went long, so they only had x amount of time to play their song. They were asked to cut the song, and they decided to just play it double time!! So awesome…

[@justamops]

In addition to Pete Brown, Keith Reid, Pete Sinfield, and Richard Palmer-James, another outside lyricist who really worked was Betty Thatcher with Renaissance. All of them worked so extensively with the musicians that they contributed strongly to the personality of the band.

[@guillermomaldonado6277]

From what I've heard, it was Gary Hughes who approached Bob for those first solo albums, beign a "huge" (yeah pun intended) fan of Magnum and beign that there wasn't a Magnum band on those years (98 - 2000). Those albums were magic, I really think that could work again, but not as Magnum but as Bob solo again. Thanks for mentioning two of my favorite (and very seldom remembered) rock bands! 🍺🤘

[@user-qg5yc1mu7p]

Surprised Jerry Garcia was not mentioned.

[@svsugvcarter]

No problem with Hunter sharing headspace with Jerry. After all, part of the mythos is sleeping out of cars together in the early years. ::::::::::: “Immediately after I got out of the Army, Hunter, who is like a really good friend of mine all this time, he’d just gotten out of the Army - he had an old car and I had an old car when I got out of the Army, and we were in East Palo Alto sort of coincidentally. There was a coffee house, ‘cause of Stanford, university town and all that, and we were hanging out at the coffee house and ran into each other.We had our two cars in an empty lot in East Palo Alto where they were both broken. Neither of them ran any more but we were living in them. Hunter had these big tins of crushed pineapple that he’d gotten from the Army, like five or six big tins, and I had this glove compartment full of plastic spoons and we had this little cooperative scene eating this crushed pineapple day after day and sleeping in the cars and walking around. He played a little guitar, we started singin’ and playin’ together just for something to do. And then we played our first professional gig. We got five bucks apiece.”

[@glenfinston704]

@@svsugvcarterI love this story!!!

[@diarmuidmcnally1300]

Love the ranking added to the topic… maybe apply it again to future shows if possible…

[@nickvickers3486]

Great show Pete and Martin! I think what might have been neglected here is the fact that writing great music and lyrics is not easy to do! Don't forget, The Beatles set the ball rolling for performers writing their own stuff and they had 3 great song writers and Ringo was no slouch either... and that fact is always seen as quite spectacular. So in reality to even have one great songwriter in a band along with 3 or 4 great performers is not an everyday occurrence! There probably have been loads of bands who never got much further than playing clubs in their hometown because they didn't have the songs. Not to mention a load more bands that don't even bother trying to write because those clubs prefer tribute and covers bands. I suppose once a band has covered enough songs they start to have ideas about the type of music they want to create, they try and write lyrics and the least stupid get chosen. And maybe one 'lyricist' rises to the top and then he or she thinks, 'crikey I need to come up with 10 more sets of lyrics!'. So they writing utensils and get to work. It probably doesn't matter who is writing the lyrics as long as they fit the song and the singer's voice and the singer enjoys singing them. For some bands this is may be effortless and for others it may well be a case of, by hook or by crook! Anyway it's a fun topic. Other good examples include AC/DC (certainly post Bon Scott, I think Angus and Malcolm did most of it), Oasis (Noel wrote the music and lyrics, while Liam sang), ABBA (the lads wrote the lyrics, the girls sang) and Anthrax! (Charlie Benante writes most of the music and Scot Ian handles lyrics, while Joey Belladona has some of the best pipes in the business! And I suppose John Bush didn't write lyrics either, does he for Armoured Saint?) How about an Anthrax tour with Belladona and Bush?! They could call it, Attack of the Two Killer Bs!!!

[@cleftturnip7774]

I always assumed most singers couldn't read or write.

[@brunosaullo3004]

Excellent topic for this episode gentlemen! I personally am of the opinion that if you are a singer, "Front man of band" , the aspiration would always be to sing what is personal ... telling stories or emoting people with your thoughts or feelings. Unless writing words is virtually unbecoming of the artist singing, I believe the singer generally writes the lyrical message so we as a fan usually relate to the singer in a personal way through the lyrics... I have dabbled into the world of music as a performer and have always found it very important to to write my own lyrics and have found it less satisfying doing covers or singing another persons words.

[@asdfzxcv3617]

Great lyrics from Geezer Butler, about risks of environment.

[@Mark-bi5dk]

I honestly believe it's because. Everyone don't have songwriting availability in them....especially I believe this in bands where lead singers don't play a instrument that they just don't have it in them...I love your take on MAGNUM

[@Mark-bi5dk]

Songwriting ability

[@Justin_Kipper]

You are correct. Tom Brady is a great quarterback but no one expects him to kick field goals too. The dynamic duo of this show don't seem to understand that in many of their examples, but they've probably never tried to write many songs themselves and sing them.

[@wernermoritz882]

This is very true. Talents and abilities among musicians are so diverse. Many don’t want to be involved in composing the song or writing lyrics due to interest, ability or talent.

[@kenfrederick6223]

I was never bothered by the The Who as Townsend has always had real appreciation for the power in Daltry's voice (and his great showmanship) or KISS as it's like a big song writing party (every day!). Like Martin, I never even thought about the writing credits in Uriah Heep. All great bands in any case. 🎤

[@glenfinston704]

Great show and great idea for a show gents! Rush was the first one to come to mind for me as well; Neil’s lyrics some of the best and Geddy owned them beautifully, so yeah, not a problem at all. It’s hilarious that Neil introduced me to Ayn Rand and her ideas in his early work; she is not exactly a hippie Rock and Roller! Although Neil was a long hair he wasn’t typical at all here! RIP Mr Peart.

[@martymartin2894]

Rush are so overrated I don't know how they become famous. Great musicians but awful music.

[@rl328]

@@martymartin2894 hahaha. you're so out of your mind.

[@glenfinston704]

After Rush, the band that I thought of was the Grateful Dead, with Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter. Jerry did quite often until the end sing completely from the heart with Hunter's fantastic lyrics which he knew were golden.

[@rl328]

@@glenfinston704 Good one. If you've ever seen Robert Hunter, you have an example of why some lyricists are better off finding a vocalist who can deliver the lyrics.

[@glenfinston704]

Ya Robert was not a fantastic performer and vocalist but he did put his soul into it which is paramount!

[@fredrkane8481]

I'm super glad that SOT finally does a vid centered around lyricists. To me, when it comes to heavy music, the lyricist is as important as the guitarist. The bands that have kept my attention over the years are bands like The Beatles, Stones, Who, Animals, Jethro Tull, the Alice Cooper band, Black Sabbath, Yes, Crimso, Queensryche, Queen, Alice in Chains, Sound Garden, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Slip Knot, Stone Sour... BOC (especially, BOC). Thanks guys!

[@MetalMan73100]

New guitar behind Pete this time. Looks like some old timey Gibson jazz model.

[@brianmiller1077]

Perhaps a 335?

[@seaoftranquilityprog]

Sire Larry Carlton H7...yes, essentially a 335, but way less expensive.

[@paulfaulkner2855]

Ozzzy can do no wrong with me in the original Sabbath or first 4 solo albums. Its his voice and presence that made him a legend.

[@mellotronin54]

Some of the greatest Jazz musicians interpreted standards or re-worked them in some ways that you would never recognise them but they were chord changes they took from somewhere else and they are visionaries. Go Figure.

[@wernermoritz882]

Not really an SOT band but another good example would be Depeche Mode. I have always loved it when Martin sings his lyrics himself (maybe on 1 or 2 songs on every album), he has a great voice. In recent years Dave also writes songs/lyrics himself and became really good at it.

[@JIF882]

I like One Caress

[@wernermoritz882]

@@JIF882That is a Misfits song.😅You probably meant One Caress from 1993, a song written and sung by Martin.

[@JIF882]

​@wernermoritz882 yes

[@philipquail4044]

Guys, I can't believe you didn't mention Michael Moorcock in the Blue Oyster Cult discussion!

[@markhuntington9149]

Just an idea for a show - Great 70s bands who didn't put a out a great 70s live album - not counting modern day-reissues of course. Some of the greatest ever are guilty of this - Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Aerosmith and the Stones (I don't consider 'Get Yer-Ya-Yas Out!' a 70s album) and I'm sure there are several others

[@alexnejako777]

yup- even though I'm too young to have seen Zep in concert with the four original members I like their studio stuff better. With the production and the instruments - especially from ZoSo onward - studio was better. And that's ok- not everybody can reproduce live exactly what they can do in the studio.

[@NotData]

I often thought about Art Garfunkel for this category. As far as I know, Paul Simon wrote all the songs. And on songs where only Paul sang, I wondered what Art did on stage. I don't recall him playing any instruments.

[@interstellardave]

Alan Parsons Project would be an interesting group to analyze for this topic. It would take some heavy research, though.

[@alexnejako777]

yes Alan is not the lead singer on many of the big APP hits. but they're beautiful!

[@noheamike5036]

Alan did not write lyrics or sing, Eric Woolfson wrote the lyrics and began singing songs starting with Turn of a Friendly Card. Though they still had several vocalists each album, Eric sang 2 or 3 per album and most of their later hits.

[@bgmchrisc]

I've always felt that bands/artists should do whatever is necessary to make the best music they can. I don't think it's a plus to have everyone in the band write, or sing, if they're not all operating at the same level. Don't let the drummer sing a song if they're a mediocre singer just so you can say everyone sings, and don't let someone write lyrics if they have no words in their head. Unless we get too far up our own ass, who writes the song doesn't actually matter at all to whether or not the song is any good. If we truly care about the music above all else, we do a bad job of proving it.

[@christophercheney1006]

With Rush, all you need to do is listen to "I Think I'm Going Bald" . After that, you immediatly think "Thank goodness Neil could write lyrics!!"

[@roblake9856]

That song single handedly turned me off from that album for decades. Until SOT clued me in how great the rest of the album is...like a new Rush album to me.

[@glenfinston704]

@@roblake9856Yes it’s a goodie!

[@JIF882]

...but that was written by Neil. Geddy wrote Tears and Different Strings.

[@MartyMurray]

This is a very interesting topic, which I never really thought about. Back in the old days, most of the artists and singers our parents listened to - Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Andy Williams, all of them, none of them wrote any songs. They were given songs to sing by established writers and did their own interpretations of them. The blues guys wrote all their own stuff, as did the folk singers later on. You know, I'm kind of glad that Geddy didn't write the lyrics for Rush, because if you listen to that very first album, with John Rutsey on it, the lyrics are pretty basic and almost abysmal. Typical bar band rock and roll stuff. When Neil came along, everything changed. Now Alex, who is often considered the clown of the band, or the one with the best sense of humour, does write lyrics, and they are quite good, but really on the dark side, which is surprising. I remember reviewing his "Victor" album when I wrote for Pulse Niagara, and I couldn't believe how dark most of it was. The one let-up was a kind of amusing song where his wife and her friend participated in the recording. He has continued that tone with his new band, Envy Of None, to some extent, although I imagine Andy Curran also does some of the songwriting there, and Andy writes great tunes! When it comes to Ritchie Blackmore, I'm glad he doesn't write lyrics. Most people in the arts, with all the travelling and exposure to other cultures and all the other artists that they meet, some of that rubs off on them. It doesn't seem to have worked with Ritchie at all. I saw an interview with him once where he was asked to give his views on the world, social issues, etc., and the guy is clueless. His views were ridiculous, and there is his wife happily nodding her head to everything he says in total agreement. Talk about a pair of airheads. I have never heard such a load of BS in my life as came out of his mouth that day. Ritchie just wants to play his guitar, and he's great at it, so just let him continue to do that, please!

[@JosephFrancisBurton]

Agree completely. Singers are performers - asking them to write their own lyrics is like asking an actor to write their own screenplay. It happens sometimes, but writing and performing are vastly different skills.

[@scottbazzett2518]

I found this an odd discussion. To question why some of these guys don't write, seems to imply that anyone CAN write a song. Songwriting is a totally separate skill from vocal talent. There are many great singers (and musicians) that cannot write good songs (I think that would be a more interesting conversation). So I would rather hear a great singer sing a good song written by someone else than suffer through a poorly written song by a singer that can't write. By the same token, there are some good songwriters that aren't the best singers, and I often WISH they would have gotten a better singer execute the vocals. A good song performed by a good singer is better than an okay song performed by a good singer or a good song performed by an okay singer. Just my two cents.

[@matthewashman1406]

Elton John is the greatest example. And who cares he has Bernie.

[@stephennorris2524]

Gary Hughes said he wrote Bob Catley's album The Tower in the style of Tony Clarkin.

[@Duqsteel1115]

For me, I’m not a huge lyrics guy. If the songs are really good and the lyrics are interesting, I have no issues with who writes the lyrics. Although….I do prefer it to be someone in the band. But, not really a big deal for me.

[@ryanjacobson2508]

Bad lyrics can sink a musically well produced and composed song, but good lyrics can't rescue poorly produced/composed music.

[@johnmichaelwilliams6694]

Popoff and Pardo are at it again with a philosophical question/issue about singers and lyricists and their varying degrees of exceptions when this is not necessarily an issue but also examples of when each considers it an issue. The first that came to mind for me is the Elton John/Bernie Taupin collaboration where Taupin wrote the lyrics [although as a trivial point, Elton did write the lyrics for the last verse of Border Song in his US debut album]. But another that nags at the back of my mind is the Grateful Dead - particularly the Jerry Garcia and Robert Hunter song collaborations that occurred. Not enough of Deadhead to comment too much on that but would not that Hunter did contribute significantly to the Garcia songs at least on American Beauty. Workingman's Dead and Blues For Allah. Just food for thought. As always, interesting to hear Martin and Pete discuss a topic that might otherwise never cross my mind. Thanks, gents, for your time and this episode. There ya go!

[@ilj1259]

Gabriel insisted on writing lyrics to Lamb but previous albums were group written.

[@JIF882]

Yes. Also, when Phil took over, he wasn't much of a writing. From A Trick Of The Tail to Abacab, they identified individual writers. In that period, Tony Banks wrote the majority of the songs, with Mike Rutherford in second

[@ilj1259]

​@@JIF882 As a solo artist phil had the most hit singles... Funny how that worked out.😅

[@brotherhoodoflightshowcurr3318]

I’m a Bay Area music industry guy hung out with Journey at their Lighting and Video company back in the day. and they were really struggling to find a singer and of course they found that guy on the Internet, Arnell, and he was able to pull off the vocals, which was a huge relief for Neil Sean. obviously, the Arnell, is not a songwriter. It’s difficult to find somebody that can somewhat compared to Steve Perry. That’s a miracle in itself.

[@michaelivan9066]

The crazy thing about Pete Townsend is his demo albums sound better than a lot of bands actual releases.

[@craigburgess7105]

When we had our band, back in the day 85-91, we all wrote bits and bobs ( Will writing a bit if an overstatement ) of the music but for the lyrics it was mainly me and I can say it's quite tricky, or I found it tricky, to avoid cliche. We also had a singer who one really couldn't decipher any of the words he was singing so it probably didn't really matter 😆

[@craigburgess7105]

Or in less words 'I was rubbish' 🤣🤣

[@threeofakindbygeneraldean3007]

Interesting topic with good examples. For the record, Townshend is a genius condensing difficult ideas at least 1967 until Moon's death. Their singer had 2 1/2 credits including one song released much later. Kiss were morons yet had enough classic material during the classic years to make it worth checking out.

[@marlachristensen2076]

Been quite a long time since I have listened into y'all's show.

[@marlachristensen2076]

I think I might like the Charisma Production tee-shirt here.

[@tonyslupe3828]

No Elton John?

[@AttackFromDownunda]

One of those " Exit Eden " albums would probably make the skull thread i noticed in the background. I really like also the " Lizzy Borden " album Visual Lies, which comes before the one you highlighted. I can stream, but i'm on the look-out for physical media of Marillion and Killswitch engage. Thanks for the Disarm The Descent tip. I will check out that Marillion stream you did at the 4 hours, 30 minute mark to see if there is any brain activity left😆Cheers Mate.

[@scottlame6724]

I thought someone might mention Anthrax. I've always heard Scott and Charlie write the lyrics and music. Joey shows up to record when everything is done.

[@entelikey1]

Thrax were the first band that came to my mind too. Joey rules, and with those lyrics he’s the ultimate. Martin should know this and acknowledge. Euphoria and Persistence have excellent lyrics.

[@ollebergstrom4310]

Hi Pete and Martin, I think Pete kept the best songs to "Empty Glass" and "All the best Cowboys......" that explains the rather weak "Face Dances" and It´s Hard"

[@joeylyons4549]

I kind of agree with you guys about Ozzy. Then again I’m not sure his fried out brain was capable

[@danielwolski873]

Who cares if the singer doesn't write the lyrics if the songs are good, but it's an interesting topic.

[@patriotpizzaman]

Album Wars was great last week! I think it was a great mix of people. Grant killed it! Looking forward to the UK Connection!

[@JIF882]

What does that have to do with this video?

[@craigburgess7105]

Totally agree on the point Martin makes regarding The Who (a band that never did it for me - find them flat and uninspiring / my Dad was at school with a couple of them)

[@jamescorbett5729]

Before I forget, Polly Sampson writing Pink Floyd lyrics for her husband to sing on the Division Bell? Come on!

[@MartyMurray]

I always thought Kim Mitchell had more of a hand in the songwriting/lyrics on his solo records, but I'm not sure? I know he still works with Pye. When it comes down to song credits sometimes, it's hard to know who does what. If anyone would know, it would be you, Martin, or Bob Wegner. I was also surprised to see that Pye's real name is Paul Woods! I guess he and Kim have not always worked together, and have had some falling-outs over the years.

[@andrewcarr5923]

Contrarian Popoff boiling the piss of Who fans everywhere !

[@johandunder]

Great stuff! Something flew through my head the other day that maybe could be a topic for a show. Favourite bands whos best song isn't on their best album. For me Countdown To Extinction by Megadeth is their best song but Rust in Peace is the best album. 🙂 Something like that. Take care, boys!

[@apparaoapparao]

In most circumstances, allowing the singer to impart his or her perspective on the lyrics makes the lyrics more interesting. When the lyricist also sings the lyrics, it almost narrows the scope and focuses the intention of the words instead of allowing the verses wider or more diverse meaning.

[@donnybrookdetritus]

First one’s that pop in my head are Ozzy, Geddy Lee and Roger Daltrey

[@wernermoritz882]

All three are talked about in the show…

[@747jono]

What a fantastic show as always you guys are the best 💯💯💯💯

[@ianbrown3304]

I preferred some of Bob Catley's 'solo' stuff over Magnum's (I know heresy).As much as I love Ten, commercially they do not resonate as well as Magnum. So for me, it would be a no-brainer IF the rest of the guys in the band(s) want to carry on. They are all getting on after all. Michael Sadler is a very interesting option as I think he and Bob would work well together but not sure if it would chime as Magnum. The other option could be John Mitchell although he got his fingers burned with It Bites.

[@robertmarles9665]

I thought John Mitchell did a good job with It Bites, the 2 albums he did with them were pretty good. When they played live he nailed Dunnery's guitar and vocal parts. He's a great musician, he could do well with Magnum if that opportunity came up.

[@aldebaran4154]

Renaissance was a band where the outside writer worked. Betty Thatcher's lyrics are perfect for Annie to sing and with the sound of the band. Robin Zander doesn't write all that much with Cheap Trick and that works well.

[@musicmann1967]

With Kiss, it's interesting. I know Mitch Weissman, who has written with them and was friends with band (mainly Paul Stanley) for a long time. From what I understand, the band was always looking for co-writers, it wasn't a thing where the producers or the label were pushing co-writers on them. They seemed to know they weren't prolific enough writers to fill albums with quality songs with just the members writing. That's something a lot of fans don't realize. Just because a person has written a great song, doesn't mean they can always do that. Creativity is a funny thing. Some people have songs or song ideas flowing out of them all the time. With other people it can be a much more random and fickle thing that doesn't always happen .

[@mariopimenteljr8312]

Cool, interesting episode!

[@wernermoritz882]

Great topic! This has always bothered me in The Who and early Sabbath, especially since Daltrey and Ozzy were not that much involved into writing the music either.

[@FireMoon42]

I don't think James Dewar wrote many, if any, lyrics for the Trower albums?

[@jesseruth9357]

Welcome to another episode of the Max Webster discussion hour! I'm kidding... sort of. 😄

[@ericdinse5047]

I thought I was the only one who thought that !

[@MartinPopoff]

I know, so funny. We - and more me - sure mention them a lot.

[@JohnMacRae23]

Cool show idea... Not sure about the Who section... Townsend was the established main songwriter years before Tommy. Daltry only wrote a handful of songs their entire career, but I think he is integral to the voice of those Townsend songs, and got a across a power that Townsend couldn't provide.

[@daicullinane7746]

Interesting topic. However, once you diverted into Kiss not always writing their lyrics I was waiting for one band to be mentioned, Pink Floyd. If you accept the fact that Dave is the main singer. For years I believed only Geezer wrote the lyrics. Then I find out Ozzy did write a few lyrics, but they weren't necessarily the best.

[@andrewcarr5923]

Sometimes a great singer is just that and to have that talent alone is enough for most, of course they are generally the focal point of the band whether they wrote the lyrics/music or not and they tend to get the most adulation from the fans.

[@stevefletcher6163]

It’s an odd thing, in a band you have individual talents, singers, drummer , guitarists, bassists, keyboardists. We always have this assumption the singer should be the best lyricist but there is no reason why he would be.I can’t say a singer not writing lyrics has ever bothered me when listening as long as he sounds comfortable singing them. Another way of looking at this is would some bands songs be better if the singer hadn’t written the lyrics and which bands songs would be better with better lyrics.

[@wernermoritz882]

Spontaneous answer: Changes by Black Sabbath 😂

[@747jono]

Look forward to Friday morning at the funhouse 😂❤❤

[@burnett179]

Ozzy wrote some lyrics in black sabbath .ok black sabbath am I going insane are not great lyrics but the writ which geezer says in his book was written by ozzy is in my opinion are as good as anything sabbath has ever done in all eras.

[@starglasses76]

I agree. Based off of the Writ, I wish Ozzy had written more. One of my favorite Sabbath songs.

[@carl-johanfougstedt199]

An interesting theme! Outside writers can be really essential for the music. Bernie Taupin is such a great lyricist, so I don´t think that Elton John could outwrite him. Pekka Kainulainen is a central force for Amorphis. On the other hand if a band delivers basic, or in worst case generic, rock lyrics, it doesn´t matter who is writing the lyrics.

[@jamescorbett5729]

I read somewhere that Rick Wakeman also used to look across at Jon Anderson and think “I don’t know what the hell are you singing about and I don’t care”.

[@marlachristensen2076]

I am interested in your bothersome level ratings of 'Journey'. I never thought of any of this like this.

[@pvdguitars2951]

A lot of hit and miss with Chin and Chapman in Sweet, Suzy Quattro…

[@peterdelaney7061]

Joe Cocker didn't write his own material and Linda Ronstadt published very little material. I think this topic is much more interesting when you discuss solo artists, especially vocalists, because the lyrics seem much more integral to the performance. Honestly, who cares who writes the lyrics for a band like Dream Theater?

[@marlachristensen2076]

@38:00, Dream Theater is a rather bothersome band to me as well. The one thing they did, of which I am impressed with, is their cover of Elton John's song "Funeral for a Friend." I find it adventurous for any band to attempt to cover this song.

[@ericdinse5047]

I thought Bob Ezrin was the one who suggested that Gene sing God of Thunder. I have heard a version that Paul sang, (maybe that version was what made them decide Gene was the better choice).

[@jimmyjambhere]

I always thought it was weird that Neil wrote all the lyrics for Rush, Geezer wrote all the Ozzy Era Sabbath lyrics was weird but it definitely worked. Who wrote the lyrics on the first Rush album?

[@JIF882]

Geezer actually didn't write all the lyrics. Ozzy wrote some as well. The lyrics on the first Rush album were written by Geddy. Apparently, John wrote lyrics, but never presented them to the band.

[@peterdelaney7061]

The more you hear about the behind the scenes shenanigans, the more I believe a lot of Ozzy's career has been a complete fraud

[@andrewt4935]

It has been a fraud. Surprised Ozzy wasn't even mentioned here as a zero contributor.

[@JIF882]

​@@andrewt4935 Ozzy wrote some songs.

[@andrewt4935]

@@JIF882 The ones Sharon paid others to write for him?

[@JIF882]

@@andrewt4935 They were his friends. Motorhead turned with Ozzy

[@andrewt4935]

@@JIF882 We know the history. Still he didn't write. Probably can't even spell his own name.

[@apparaoapparao]

I also appreciate when the bass player writes the lyrics and leads the band. Most rock and roll sound engineeers/producers de emphasize the bass in the mix; but when the bass player leads the band, often by writing the lyrics; he or she imposes his or her will on the final master with bass up front.

[@alexnejako777]

Thin Lizzy, Hawkwind and Level 42! and any of Paul McCartney's projects too

[@JukkaTirkkonen-xz9xy]

Thanks to you boys you are great... I'm listen now U2,s popmart live from mexico city -97 What about U2's greatest albums..? 🙂 Alarm, depeche mode, ultrafox ..✌️

[@wernermoritz882]

U2? Don‘t think they fit this topic.

[@JIF882]

Are you new to this channel? This is for Hard Rock/Heavy Metal/Prog. Peter doesn't like New Wave or Alternative

[@aymericleroy8500]

re: King Crimson, neither lyricist was brought in by Fripp. Pete Sinfield was a friend and songwriting partner to Ian McDonald, so Fripp found himself, after McDonald left, with a songwriting partner he hadn't chosen, and whom over time he found he didn't really like writing with. Greg Lake evidently didn't have a problem with singing lyrics by Sinfield as he later hired him for ELP's later albums. Richard Palmer-James was an old friend and bandmate of John Wetton's, and had been Supertramp's original guitarist and lyricist, writing all the lyrics to their first album. Wetton had become more confident with his own lyrics by the time they did UK (although Bruford wrote the lyrics for the last song on the debut).

[@JIF882]

I didn't know that about Bill.

[@aymericleroy8500]

The lack of any credit for Wetton is a clue... And Bruford has confirmed this.

[@martymartin2894]

All the very best singers wrote their own lyrics, because then its more personal and from the heart.

[@brianmiller1077]

But then again I don't mind that great singers like Sinatra had the best composers of the day writing stuff for him. He's got the vocal chops, they have the songsmith skills.

[@martymartin2894]

@@brianmiller1077 suppose I'm going to contradict myself and agree, Elvis Presley too.

[@peterdelaney7061]

Not necessarily. As previously mentioned Joe Cocker and Linda Ronstadt, who both could personalize a song like no other wrote little to nothing. Perhaps the greatest female singer of the last 60 years, Aretha Franklin, was not a prolific lyricist. What about some of the "worst" singers of all time such as Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, Johnny Cash, etc.? I don't think your premise holds up to scrutiny

[@martymartin2894]

@@peterdelaney7061 I now agree.

[@martymartin2894]

@@peterdelaney7061 I now agree.

[@tomasandrew9354]

Not every singer has the talent to write lyrics. I’d rather have a singer who recognizes their limitations and have someone else write the words. I don’t really mind it, especially when the singer is a great vocalist. Because the singing adds a lot of meaning to the words, so if you have a great interpreter, that has its own value.

[@jimmyjambhere]

Bruce did write some stuff on The Number of the Beast but due to legal reasons he could not be credited. He left Samson to join Maiden.

[@jamesw4895]

Look at ozzy. We will never know what percentage of the lyrics he wrote. But he definately made them his own both live and on record. Due to bob daisleys constant work with many performers and his dependability i believe his side of the story as well as geezers. Just because you dont write the lyrics doesnt mean you cant sing them with conviction. I bet there were times when geddy lee was in awe of neil pearts lyric ability and gladly sang them. Knowing his part was to sing and lay down great bass and keyboard parts. Same with steve harris.

[@NigelSmith66]

Manic Street Preachers. Almost without exception, James has been singing Nicky's lyrics and up to 1994, (the missing presumed dead) Richey's lyrics. Again I have no problem with this. Like Pete, I am not generally big into lyrics. For me it's nearly always all about the music.

[@ChrisNorwood3]

Meatloaf, Elton, Fall Out Boy come to mind. The Who.

[@marlachristensen2076]

Oh, I made a mistake. Alexander Deowolf is a Magma fanboy.

[@musicmann1967]

The Who was the first band I thought of when I saw the topic. I don't agree with Martin about the Daltrey's presentation lacking something compared to Pete's interpretations of his own songs. I think Roger has a great voice and really delivered. (I love Pete's voice too) But I always thought of Roger as kind of inferior to Pete. He's a bit of a dummy and doesn't seem to have a lot going on between his ears. That aspect is the part that bugged me. You have Pete, who is an intelectual and and artist, and then you have Roger,,who's a bit thick in the head, interpreting those sometimes very heady conceptual lyrics. A weird dichotomy. They're one of my favorite bands though, contradictions and all

[@stevehartke]

Writing music is a lot different than writing lyrics… Ritchie never wrote lyrics, he had Gillan, Coverdale, Dio, Glover, JLT, and now his wife… two separate skills.

[@SH-ud8wd]

Grateful Dead

[@helterskelter1178]

Bryan Adams wrote Rock and Roll Hell and War Machine for Kiss

[@JIF882]

Actually, Rock & Roll Hell is a cover of a BTO song

[@Justin_Kipper]

It's a bit odd to suggest that Lake resented Sinfield writing lyrics for King Crimson... Sinfield also wrote a lot for ELP.

[@seaoftranquilityprog]

No one ever said ‘resented’…I just said that both Lake and Wetton took not writing for Crimson and it drove them to become strong lyricists after leaving the band.

[@Justin_Kipper]

@@seaoftranquilityprog I said you _suggested_ resentment: "And you have to wonder, going forward, did this bother a guy like Greg Lake or John Wetton, who obviously became big-time lyricists after King Crimson...I don't know. _Maybe they weren't happy with it._ "

[@thekivster]

It doesn’t really affect the music at all for me.