Why DUNE's Messiah Is A Lie? | Dune Explained

[@ribcagesteak]

Frank Herbert presents an interesting thought experiment: Does knowing the future justify atrocities committed in the present to secure it? Is the future worth saving if it requires the destruction of the present? Many atrocities have been committed in history in the name of the greater good or in pursuit of a better afterlife. Herbert substitutes these goals with actual precognition and concludes that the human capacity for violence remains the same.

[@KymHammond]

Its a little bit more nuanced than this: Herbert asked is there an evolutionary quality rather than something continually manipulated or constructed via machines or ideologies that could lead humans to peace? The atrocities were happening continually and although spice had allowed Humans to free themselves from the enslavement by thinking machines they were no closer to producing and living in a truly egalitarian and peaceful societies. Spice, although its had given men, particularly almost god like visible powers with which to manipulate their own thinking processes, other men by force and cohesion by controlling fabric of space-time itself, it had also exposed their ruthless politician reflexes for power as they reverted back into a desperately brutal and cruel feudal existence, as baroque as it was.

[@ryanhampson673]

That’s the thing about evil. The vast majority of villains aren’t evil for evils sake, they truly believe the are doing the right thing in their eyes.

[@woo1818]

@@ryanhampson673 true, evil hides behind good. Hiding even from itself.

[@mrbluebell2735]

It's certainly a trolley problem on a cosmic scale. Being omniscient and prescient on top of this doesn't mean the trolley is going to spare the most number of people. Especially if it means sacrificing ones family and beloved for the many. I mean, what monster would do that to kin and companion for complete strangers? A noble idiot likely would. Paul chose family. Leto the younger endeavoured to be free of such tyranny.

[@JEEDUHCHRI]

“Before man was, War waited for him”

[@AlwaysFeelingSleepy]

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved" is not a quote by Herbert. It's from Soren Kierkegaard.

[@kevactual]

Good catch my man. Lets keep them honest

[@c3920]

It is said the KZbin algorithm was created by the Bene Gesserit.

[@kevactual]

Nope, that's got harkonnen written all over it. :)

[@PK4Real]

The Bene Gesserit actually planned for you to write those words 6500 years ago

[@Steelers4Life47]

It’s said your mom was created by the Bene Gesserit.

[@jevinday]

Tell the bene gesserit to stop sending me shit recommendations

[@FayeLawnKrack3d]

How about Twitter and Bluesky algorithms?

[@danielschaeffer1294]

The BG’s plan, to marry Leto’s daughter to Feyd Rautha, was moronic, as well as being cold-hearted and immoral. Leto was an honorable and caring father, and would NEVER have allowed his daughter to be married against her will to a sadistic psychopath. He and his allies would have risen in revolt instead of the fremen. Either way the Harkonnens were doomed.

[@chasx7062]

Paul Atreides is ALSO a Hakkonnen LOL 😂 That would have been awkward

[@LRCollier]

I mean, the BG are capable manipulators. I think they would have found a way, like they have done for millennia.

[@bryanaa196]

But its not the name he carries. Most royalties even in our time are relatives anyway. I think the Bene's have always worked to keep the power in balance, as they said the Atreides are getting defiant and they started building a military than can rival the Emperor's which is not good, the Harkonnens are sadists but they can be controlled. The movie didn't mention but I think in the book Duke Leto resents the Emperor for something resulting in tension between House Atreides and House Corrino.@@chasx7062

[@stephengrant4841]

Nah, it probably would have worked. Leto would have agreed if it meant permanently ending the millennia long feud. It's still a feudal society, remember, and sacrifices like that have to be made for the good of the House.

[@deathsdoor07]

They might as well live in Alabama.

[@konekillerking]

Paul wasn’t the tool the BG desired. They wanted full control over the construct. The Golden Path was for the survival of humanity. Humanity had to scatter to all ends of the Universe if it was to survive.

[@mrbluebell2735]

The BG hold themselves as cold and dispassionate gardeners over the great tree of humanity. Mercilessly pruning branches and twisting others into idealized forms. They've forgotten that the tree is very much alive and willing to fight back.

[@KymHammond]

This is a great way to describe the Bene Gesserit, but I don't believe they can really be described as completely cold and dispassionate, as that is our touch point for understanding how they understood the spice-induced cosmic Imperium and why they chose to breed a super being, with the qualities that they, as females, still processed: with human qualities. This comes about because the spice that had changed the course of human history and evolution had given males, with carefully controlled amounts, superhuman attributes with which they were able to spread across and then control the known universe. Where males were cerebrally and physically deformed by the consumption of spice in order to produce such powers, females instead were not despite being able to consume a more refined form of the spice, that gave them access to internal experiences as a form of prescient intuition from the genetic memories of all the other females who had lived before them. Their physiologies gave them psychic powers that males could not match and which would kill them if they consumed the same refined spice liquid, but that they themselves could not wield as a power in their own right. For instance, they could not be Guild Navigators; they could not fold space-time, nor could they match the Sardaukar, an order, as they were, in its own right. To wield power, the Bene Gesserit needed to access the very core of male being.

[@daniels7907]

Yet it Paul who has *61 BILLION* people slaughtered to secure his place on the throne. So how are the BGs the bad guys?

[@chasx7062]

@@daniels7907 The Bene Gesserit created Paul thru Jessica, its just that Jessica chose a Y chromosome from Leto instead X LOL

[@daniels7907]

@@chasx7062 - So? Most of the Landsraad can say the same. The BG breeding program was aiming to create the Kwisatz Haderach, but a secondary goal was to advance evolution more generally. How else do you suppose that somebody like Feyd could even hope to challenge somebody like Paul? Answer: because Feyd was a product of the same breeding program. Most of the nobility was, along with commoners of genetic merit. The so-called "Jessica crime" was disobeying her orders out of love. Also, for inexplicable reasons, because Jessica *could* still have produced a daughter. Even normal women IRL don't usually wait 15 years between pregnancies. Remember that Jessica had control over her body and could have conceived and sex selected a female child at any point during those 15 years.

[@mrbluebell2735]

@@KymHammond their outward demeanour is more due to their discipline and conditioning. The Litany doesn't erase fear, it divorces their high cognition from the effect of terror. It certainly makes for someone very difficult to break. It also means it's near impossible for an acolyte to be in direct opposition to their overarching plans. In this manner they were TOO successful with Jessica. She was bred to have relentless ambition like her sire. The order never realised how far that actually was and the lengths she would go through for her children. Thus the impossible occurred many times with her.

[@maedre1759]

it's so funny that because of superpowers people really believe he is the messiah, you are just being manipulated by bene gesserit just like the fremen

[@PearTree450]

This is literally the story of every religion

[@maedre1759]

@@PearTree450 +1

[@omarbaasz]

​@@PearTree450please don't talk nonsense, I assume you haven't even explored religion, I suggest exploring islam and it's message and then tell me if it's made up or if it's the truth

[@jainilpatel5811]

@@omarbaasz Only thing islam has taught is terrorism and hatred against any non-muslim through jihad.

[@PearTree450]

@omarbaasz I have same conclusion I'm afraid

[@esrasimge8351]

Great and simple explanation! So the Bene Gesserit literally tried to create a god and expect to control him? Lol.

[@KymHammond]

Only in that the superbeing would have "powers" that extend from themselves and thereby through him rule the universe. In their story universe the spice had already given humans god-like attributes like a prescient vision for safely navigating through folded space-time, so their breeding plan was not so far fetched or egotistically driven as it would be in our universe.

[@daniels7907]

He was never meant to be a "god" outside of public relations. The *real* purpose of the Kwisatz Haderach was for the Sisterhood to gain a male BG who could both see the male line of Other Memory (which the sisters could not), as well as having a souped up version of the prescience possessed by Guild Navigators, allowing him to observe distant events and see the future. In this way, they hoped to be able to better plan the future of humanity. Remember that advancing human evolution was one of the BG's primary objectives. All those people with cool abilities were products of the BG breeding program, which was meant to maximize human potential.

[@KymHammond]

@@daniels7907Agreed. Fixed. Spice was found to give males and females different attributes. Females are able to drink a refined liquid versions of the spice via the collected water of a drowned young worm which gave them access to their genetic memories. Males died from drinking it but in controlled environments and consumption were able to develop super human attributes.

[@stephengrant4841]

@@KymHammond spice has nothing to do with folding space-time - thats a Lynch movie thing only. It allows for folding space time to be safer because the navigators can see briefly into the future using it, but the same general process was achieved with computers before they had been banned. Folding Space time though did not require spice.

[@KymHammond]

@@stephengrant4841 by using the Holtzman generator. Yes..

[@KryyssTV]

The underlying point of the Dune mythos was the relentless unpredictability of freewill and the inescapable limitations of human leadership. Even if someone possessed the sum of all human knowledge, could foresee the future and know everything in the present down to the very thoughts of every lifeform that informstion is meaningless without control. It was freewill that undermined the plan to create the savior of humanity, it was freewill that stopped Paul from following the Golden Path and the same force that led his son to choose it. For all the power of the empire, mastery over memory, mind and body as well as time and space itself that all meant nothing in the face of the most powerful force in the universe that every human has - the power of choice.

[@mak2ma]

"For all the power of the empire, mastery over memory, mind and body as well as time and space itself that all meant nothing in the face of the most powerful force in the universe that every human has - the power of choice." ... op do u know how metal that line is

[@KryyssTV]

@@mak2ma Sometimes, very occassionally, the simple truth is awesome 😁

[@AndreFlickUS]

Nice work! I noticed that many people don't understand why Paul isn't 'the' Kwisatz Haderach, likely due to only watching the movies or reading the first few books. This video is a great explanation, packing important points into just 6 minutes. Keep up the good work!"

[@TantheMan415]

Idk, in Dune and Dune Messiah many people in the know say he is the KH. They literally defined the KH as being the only being who can see all genetic history and Paul was the one to do that. The problem with all of these types of discussions is that there are legitimate flaws in the “in-universe logic” of all of this combine with real inconsistencies between books.

[@lemon4087]

i was wondering how come feyd rautha didn't get the KH stuff? Who're his parents btw?

[@rizkyadiyanto7922]

​@@lemon4087paul become KH after drinking elixir of life and survived.

[@earthlingjules]

I really enjoyed your video because unlike others I've watched about Dune, it doesn't seem like you just generated and read aloud a chat gpt summary as your script. It was very concise and insightful.

[@sagargangabisoensingh]

I love chatGPT in the way that lazy KZbinrs got more lazy and made it apparent by using chatGPT and people that are passionate about the story keep making amazing content like this

[@rebeccaly]

This was a great video essay! Concise but so thoughtful and thought provoking!!

[@sarasweet3578]

Please do a video on the golden path!! I would love to know why it seems counterintuitive that the golden path was necessary for the continuation of the species--almost as a loophole to justify paul and Letos actions. thanks!

[@ValaritasYT]

Noted!

[@trenhen4311]

I’m not sure if justifies Paul’s actions. I’m only reading children of dune rn but Paul never even saw the golden path until his son was born and he walked blindly into the desert. Through his entire reign he precariously locked himself to certain paths to achieve an end with what he could see as the least possible calamity. He didn’t even really know what his motivations at that point were and he admits that to himself.

[@alinaanto]

Love this video. Straight to the point, very well crafted!

[@Rayvah]

I love your videos, and have watched everything on your channel. Have you deleted older videos? There are some you've mentioned that I can't seem to find.

[@ValaritasYT]

Thanks a Iot! Yes I deleted some old vids. I wasn't super happy with how they turned out, but I'd love to try remaking them sometime and do a better job.

[@ukwan]

Leto II worm boy wasn't really the KH either.. he was certainly more powerful. The KH was meant to be a BG tool to be manipulated, it all derailed when Jessica's ego got out of check. Helen the emperor's truth sayer certainly saw it that way, she totally lost her shit when Alia was pre born. But let's be honest Alia fucked her up in the end so.. Jessica wins again. 😂 Paul was the fulcrum, the point where the universe's future tipped towards the Golden Path. But he never had the balls to become a worm god 🐛

[@KymHammond]

You highlight some interesting points. Leto!! chose to exist in semi worm form - the makers of the spice - for protection, longevity and as a way of escaping the demands of human emotions that really weren't evolved to deal with the spice. The Kwisatz Haderach was intended to be a Bene Gesserit - i see him as a Krishna like figure - not to be manipulated by them but rather as part of them all sharing the genetic memories and god like prescience: they would then all be gods or have the same powers and be part of the same hive mind. Ali was the Bene. Gesserit who was meant to mate with Feyed-Rutha to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. Ali was the only Bene Gesserit who was able to share all the male memories as well as all the female memories.

[@mdc123-v2v]

Paul was too moral, or too weak, to fully embrace the Golden Path, he skirted it, but set the pieces. He couldn't see past the sacrifices needed to save humanity, and was burdened by the BG's betrayal of his father. I see him as an incredibly selfish, indecisive figure, strong enough to lead millions in a jihād, but too much of a coward to give them a future worthy of their deaths. He did however secure his children's place among the Fremen, by accepting his weakness and indirectly provide humanity the push they needed by allowing his son to do what he could not.

[@KymHammond]

@@mdc123-v2v Don't forget that Paul is only a character in a novel who the author uses to talk about themes like power etc, rather than providing a simplistic narrative of heroism and salvation.

[@kevactual]

Nope, no such thing as a "kh", thats just BG shorthand for the current goal of their breeding plan. Leto II was more powerful for the simple reason that from his birth he benefitted from all the training and lessons that were evidenced from his father's life as a truely unique first of his kind individual and I'm sure alia's situation was in instructive too. What BG manipulation? if jessica had had a girl as per the plan, you think the bg would be able to "manipulate" the Harkonnen to not hate the atreides enough to forgo the blood feud or not scheme with the emperor to acquire access to the most valuable commodity EVER? you would probably all ready need to be a super being to suppose you can do that. Jessica does not have an ego problem, she loved her man and said fxxk the party (as in political) Family first bitchs ! paul had no balls for the golden path because no one ever in the entirety of huumon existence, has ever had the balls. paul grew up normal (elite normal, I guess) until he was 15 and only then would he be taken out of his comfort zone and clue in to what would be necessary to avoid huumon extinction by going down the golden path ie. -living long enough and being strong enough to cope with living that long to bring about the conditions to make the scattering come to pass thus avoiding extinction. Not until leto II, a pre born, a male abomination helen would say, with no conception of sweet fxxk all, except through other memory, picks up that load and makes it his own, brings a tear to my eye thinking of that boy and his sacrifices. cheers

[@khanch.6807]

The end of golden path is the Scattering. Humanity becomes unkillable as whole after it. Spread too far and wide beyond time and space for even a god like being to conquer.

[@mak2ma]

love the ayaka pfp while delivering dune's crazy lore 😭

[@svetoslavsimeonov6903]

OSHO said that too The Mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience.

[@KingOfMadCows]

The interesting thing is that the Bene Gesserit weren't the only ones trying to create a Kwisatz Haderach. In Messiah, Scytale casually mentions that the Tleilaxu made their own Kwisatz Haderach. And Mohiam deduced that the Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach committed suicide.

[@karachaffee3343]

You go around the philosophical merry go round long enough and one ends up back with Heraclitus.

[@daniels7907]

The greatest trick in all of this is that so many fans erroneously believe that Paul is a hero, when in fact Herbert wrote him as a villain. Paul used his genetic gifts for selfish ends. Not surprising really. Even Duke Leto wasn't above political ambition, which is why Shaddam IV was afraid of him. But there are still holes in the story. Why did Jessica wait so long to produce another child? Families that literally rule entire planets ought to be able to provide for more children. Why weren't the Bene Gesserit monitoring House Atriedes all those years, considering how 90 generations of eugenic breeding hinged on what was going on with them?

[@poisonapleproduction]

Herbert did not write Paul as a villain. Have you read the book?

[@mrbluebell2735]

He wrote the book as a love letter to his wife. It's as much Jessica's journey as Paul's. She inadvertently triggered the entire cosmic tragedy. And while Paul has qualities of Paragon and Pariah, he's chosen to preserve the lives of those he loves above the unnumbered billions. There's no limit to atrocity when committed out of love. That's the warning. A trolley problem with an omnipotent tyrant preserving what matters to him to the detriment of everything else.

[@chasx7062]

@@mrbluebell2735 hmmm The HighTowers in the Dance of the Dragon?

[@daniels7907]

@@poisonapleproduction - In a famous quote, Herbert said that charismatic leaders should come with the warning label, “may be dangerous to your health.”

[@poisonapleproduction]

@@daniels7907 never read the book? Then how do you know Paul is the villain? Tiktok?

[@ubberJakerz]

Incredible video essay. Subbed!

[@stephengrant4841]

You're overall right about most things here. One thing people misunderstand all the time, though, is that the Kwisatz Haderach and Lisan al Gaib are not the same thing and weren't meant to be the same person. The Lisan al Gaib stuff isn't connected to anything about the Kwisatz haderach. Both are "prophecies" but the KH is tangible - like you said, a prescient man with genetic memory. It wasn't a prophecy, but more of a plan. The LG, though, was a fake story they planted so that the Fremen could be mass manipulated if need be one day. Paul only ends up being the Lisan al Gaib out of circumstance - the Kwisatz Haderach happened to be born a generation early to a family doomed to be sent to Arrakis to die. Because of that, the KH had to deceive the Fremen (fairly easily because they were too hopeful) into thinking he was the Lisan al Gaib. They wouldn't understand what a Kwisatz Haderach is. When they were making those prophecies, which happened individually, the Bene Gesserit did not expect their Kwisatz Haderach to pretend to be the Lisan al Gaib.

[@chasx7062]

Pure semantics? The three abrahamic ? religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam stem from the same monolithic God? They only differ in prophets & messiah? The KH & LAG are essentially the same Messiah that the BG were waiting for. They just repurposed their god for the fremen. just like if the Romans repurposed the Egyptian god horus as Jesus christ?

[@stephengrant4841]

@@chasx7062 except the Bene Gesserit don’t care about the Lisan Al Gaib and it wasn’t supposed to have any actual significance outside of being a way to one day manipulate the Fremen, if necessary. And the KH isn’t a god to them, or a messiah. That would be the wrong terminology. Have you read the book? They didn’t repurpose the KH and redress it as the LAG - again, they were supposed to be completely unrelated.

[@stephengrant4841]

@@chasx7062you’re missing it. The Bene Gesserit didn’t intend the KH to be the LaG. Those two prophecies had different ends, they knew any LaG was going to manipulate the Fremen and be fake, because any son of a Bene Gesserit could have done that.

[@chasx7062]

@@stephengrant4841 irrelevant LOL The BG were playing god but they found out that they were not god heheh

[@stephengrant4841]

@@chasx7062 I mean, it’s not, you just can’t see it. Paul isn’t actually god lol.

[@MitchellColley-e9p]

this explains further your Paul video better; thanks!

[@Krunkishisamurai1]

Great work!

[@makcraft]

It always have confused me that they have marked Paul as a flawed because of him being an insider of feudal corruption and war, yet they expected that a heir to Feid Rauta and a daughter of Atreides would be better? I think that would be even worse. Bene Gesserit is a religious cult, and they have lost the reason why they do it over milenia, they know the process and goals, but have lost the reason. Because in reality Paul have become Kwisatz Haderach (at some capacity), and his son too, proving that generational waiting list is flawed, and anyone can become the fated one, if they know about it and are raised/trained properly

[@stephengrant4841]

You aren't quite right at the end. True that anyone can be a kwisatz haderach - if they have the right genes for it, like Paul and Leto did. The generational waiting list was necessary - without them mixing the genes like they did, there would never have been a man able to be prescient to that extent and also survive the Water of Life and the bene Gesserit version of it.

[@mak2ma]

but the eugenics do play a huge role in the making of KH, just like we have evolved from our ancestors to have the strongest genes to adapt to harsh changes in our environment! :DD (p.s. this not darwin from a burner account, trust me)

[@skyshorrchannel3474]

An excellent analysis video - I'm subscribed. I ended up writing numerous changes into a long labored script of mine - as you spoke. Keep it up!

[@Lord_Ralph]

In other words: War. War never changes.

[@cameron.t]

Zetans just subjugating Earth and the Milky Way because Spice Empires are too strong in the rest of the galaxy 😂 Edit: Universe, not galaxy

[@Lord_Ralph]

@@cameron.t Zetans fear Paul Muad'Dib Atreides. The Nissan al'Gaib - the Car from the Outer World - will drive them to Paradise.

[@8aleeb]

That was the most succinct explanation I’ve heard on this 👏🏽 thanks

[@muadek2]

Great video. You touch upon the topic that virtual No one addresses and that I couldn't find the answer to myself. Thanks!

[@chasx7062]

BUT here's the crux of it all: Paul Atreides was the Messiah !! Paul freed the Freemen, then was rejected and died for their sins, just like some other dude, 2000 years ago? Paul saw all this in his Prescience, BUT he let it all happen, ie Free Will)

[@KymHammond]

Not quite. The questions Herbert asks about God pertain to power and human essentialism, not faith.

[@chasx7062]

@@KymHammond Human Hubris always puts themselves above God and why they ALWAYS fail. YOU see when they respect the Worm God, they survived, when they worshipped Paul, their victories led to their downfall.

[@neelmadhun85]

Er not quite. Herbert suffused cynicism in the storyline, here he is telling us that Fremen beliefs have been manipulated, and someone with the knowledge can take advantage of such a situation. Paul is the Messiah because his mother and himself used the Missionaria Protectiva tools to turn him into a warlord. We should not forget that his prime objective as the surviving head of Atreides family, was revenge and (as the chips fall) a shot at the Golden Lion throne. Where the story takes off from the ordinary is that he had prescience. But what he saw in his visions of the future is a very definite existential threat to humanity and he even worked out the underpinnings of the way out (the Golden Path). However, that way asked a huge sacrifice of Paul the man (he would have had to forego his humanity and put to the sword billions of beings), and he was not ready to do all that. His son (the future Leto ii) would chastise him for not having had the courage to commit fully. His choice later in life after having made sure that his kids had survived (meaning someone else to bear the Crown of thorns, if I am allowed this analogy) was to go in the desert, blind and to certain death. Even that he manages to spoil, becoming a thorn in his family's (ok, sister's) ambitions. Sure, he had free will as he 'free willied' himself of a sticky situation. Paul is not a hero for the reasons we are shown (Messiah, toppling the Corrinos, revenge), because of his manipulation of events displaying a degree of self-service and a lack of honesty. Certainly, the billions dead in his name that we are not shown but told do not add to any heroism. He is a hero for reasons that only him, his son and possibly his daughter, are aware of, setting humanity on the Golden Path. And that too he is trumped by his son in the end. As for dying for the sins er ignoring the inanity of the parallel being made, he did not make the ultimate sacrifice of turning into what Leto II became. [After this, I am tempted to say Poh Tah ToH]

[@chasx7062]

This Video still misses the crucial point: Free Will vs Pre-Destination... Paul was a mistake for some people, but for others he was pre-destined to be the Messiah, whether he wanted or not The Cosmic gods work in mysterious ways !!

[@tannthomp]

Can you do a video on Netflix’s The OA

[@couldbecooked6662]

you are a great narrator keep at it!

[@TheLogician1]

so Paul is not the Kwisatz Haderach??

[@Sheev3]

From my understanding, he isn’t. But if he was willing to sacrifice everything, he would be. It was a conscious decision by him to not become what he could’ve

[@Joanbueller007]

he is in theory (the shortening og the way) he can see psst and future, but not work the way the bg intended, his son is a better KH in my opinion he chooses to follow the path that helps humanity

[@stephengrant4841]

He is in that he can do what the Bene Gesserit wanted the Kwisatz Haderach to do. He just isn't the Lsian al Gaib because that was a fake story. Those two titles are completely separate things.

[@pamelajohnson9214]

Paul is a pre mature KH but he refused the Golden Path. He technically wasn't supposed to exist.

[@wingthomaux]

@@stephengrant4841the result of his actions was to fulfill the fake prophecy, in a sense he made it a true prophecy in hindsight.

[@FibonacciWhale]

When was the golden path first mentioned? Was it in Children of Dune?

[@bryce2fadeway]

Oh man. Is dune becoming the greatest SF movie ever made and would be next to 2001 and all? My lisan al gaib side of me tells yes 😅

[@8440k]

Thank you for conclusion! Many talk about how Duncan Idaho became the greatest kwisatz haderach/ greatest god emperor where he was just and a literal god but that is so empty. Billions upon billions of lives and generations had to die for this. This was completely cruel, merciless and suffocating!! The machiavellian strategy was extremely implemented here.. It makes the protagonist unlikable. Sure humanity survived but every life was dispensable and only the kwisatz haderach was important. Everyone else didn’t matter.. Frank Herbert warned of such leadership.. many dune videos fail to convey them.

[@robgronotte1]

Was Leto II really the Quisach Haderach? I don't remember that being said in the books. Seems like the real one would have had to had more Harkonnen blood.

[@nagatetanikaze382]

Appreciated the concise explaination!

[@hayien]

It was a transformed Kierkegaard quote actually.

[@angelabatiste446]

Very nice, thanks for explaining this.

[@Jajajajajaja08]

Ngl, I heard that last quote in Jamis’s voice 😂

[@martindiaz3353]

We learned in Dune 2, that Paul's mother was, indeed, a Harkonnen. Leto was an Atreides. So the basic design of a Harkonnen and an Atreides is fulfilled. Only in reverse. The Bene Gesserit wanted to control it, so it had to happen in the way THEY wanted, Only it did not happen in that way. They did not forsee this as in the coversation between the Reverend Mother and Princess Irulan in 2 said that Leto was killed to end the Artreides bloodline. Meaning that they did not see that the bloodlines have already been joined in Paul. The Reverend Mother told Paul's mother that they have lost both bloodlines in 1. The Reverend Mother also mentions that other bloodlines are alternatives. They don't hope, they plan. If they couldn't control their Kwisatz Haderach, did this mean they could make another one? To possibly fight the first? Will the child of the Princess and Feyd Rautha give rise to another Supreme Being? We will see.

[@chiymai]

Make more of these!!

[@myrkwood4741]

The fact that bene gesserit actually represents VERY REAL aspects of our world today and ideas implanted in every religion and belief systems. I cant help but suspect was Herbert also pointing towards systems like bene gesserit controlling humanity without their information for centuries? Because then again look at ALL belief systems dont they all seem a little too similar? Almost like they all came from the same source?

[@mak2ma]

art imitates life 😉

[@jubilantcheezer]

Excellent summary!

[@MROJPC]

The Golden Path. Herbert was not able to finish the final 7th book, but in a sense, the open ended nature of the unfinished chronicles do better to express the limitless possibilities that lay open for humanity and was the ultimate victory Leto II won. He forced humanity to explode into the furthest reach of space and break all boundaries and also provided the tools necessary to make sure the species survived and was capable of endlessly reinventing itself. It's very cool to think that the story of humanity in the Dune universe escaped the prescience and plans of Leto II which was his ultimate goal, and in a sense, it also escaped Herbert. Anything Herbert could have written for book 7 would only have encapsulated a sliver of the totality that humanity had become. To put it another way, I think of the Dune books as the chronicle of a last universal common ancestor (LUCA) for intelligent life throughout an expanding universe.

[@chasx7062]

Spreading human stupidity across the universe may be Elon musk's wet dream for money laundering, but not good for humanity

[@shadowbandit3975]

@@chasx7062 The amount of stupid in this phrase is flabbergasting.

[@chasx7062]

@@shadowbandit3975 why dont i see my reply? has it been censored?LOL

[@chasx7062]

@@shadowbandit3975 did i say some about elon musk for his cult to delete my post??? LOL

[@Frediusvitae]

5:25 These words just live in my soul. Frank is the guy i would call genius.

[@neelmadhun85]

Please do and at the top of your lungs. Best SF storyline ever. Shame he could not finish. No Leto II in this case...

[@edwinmodu3178]

Dude I’m speechless 😶 That was spectacular! & Ear-tacular I have one thing to say though the point of the breeding programme - kiwitze haderach was a man who could stand in the place no woman could stand and vice versa in other words the fusion of male and female principle in one self visa vis micro macro the universe. Anyway quoting Frank Herbert at the end really is a brilliant check mate to any further arguments or attempts at enlightenment

[@santino406]

The legend of the messiah was initially a lie, but it became reality. The Bene Gesserit designed the Kwisatz Haderach, but he escaped their control by being born a generation earlier.

[@lordfenrir1394]

3:30 Not platonic, i think he is more close to Nietzsche Ubermensch. "The man is a rope between beast and overman".

[@CambrianAnomalocaris]

The BG seemed to have been trying to actualize the Platonic figure but the Nietzschean one is what they created.

[@nenyeo6090]

@@CambrianAnomalocariscare to expand on that? I’m not as familiar with their works.

[@alasdairmacdonald4685]

Nice work! 👏🏻

[@karmicbreath]

great essay!

[@Entropy8787]

This is really informative!

[@청솔향-g9u]

The first impression I had of the Quesadderlock was that humans had been playing with humans for too long. In fact, the biggest mistake of the Butlerian Jihad was that it nippled the bud of harmony between humans and machines. The problem between thinking machines and humans was not their existence itself, but that thinking machines were monopolized for the power of a small number of humans. It was the inequality of information that became the driving force that turned the entire universe where humans live into technological feudalism. The Butlerian Jihad arose to break it down, but in the end, human feudalism that only castrated thinking machines while ignoring the root of it took hold. And the three oppressive organizations that stood up to maintain that system were the Bene Gesserit, the Guild, and the Thuleirax! These three organizations had been transforming humans using the knowledge they had and the medium they had, the Spice Melange. And the Bene Gesserit knew that the result would be the Quesadderlock. This was because they were in charge of the womb during the process of human transformation. Knowingly or unknowingly, humans were born under the influence of the Bene Gesserits and were 'conditioned' from an early age. And the result of this human modification is the birth of the complementary life form, the Kisatz Hederak, who seeks to be free from the tyranny of the worldly institutions. If we continue to create and modify humans as needed and distort their lives, a backlash will come someday. The Bene Gesserits knew the nature of this backlash and distorted it to manipulate it for their own use. Of course, the intention of the Bene Gesserits is for the survival and prosperity of humans. The Bene Gesserits, who sacrifice and use even their femininity for this, are like a symbol of the mother of humans. However, since their experience was limited to the female ancestors of humans, they were not prepared for the Kisatz Hederak who would be born as a man. In other words, it was a lack of imagination. Why did Lady Jessica go against her lifelong education, conditioning, and religious beliefs to give birth to a boy for her beloved husband Leto? The Bene Gesserits could manipulate men by almost any means, but they were helpless when it came to simple love between a man and a woman, and if left to their own devices, the Kissat-Hadderak, who would otherwise be imprisoned in the hands of a gentle mother, implemented a method to overcome this predicament. She was born before the prison became even more solid with the Harkonnen beast genes, using the most instinctive human emotions. As mentioned in the book, the Thuleirax artificially created Kissat-Hadderak using their Gola program. They created many failures, including Hasimir Fenring, but they succeeded in creating real Kissat-Hadderaks several times. However, during the process of forming the ego, the artificial Kissat-Hadderak committed suicide. The hardware was normal, but the mental issues were not resolved. The Bene Gesserits, who ruled the womb, believed that they would succeed. The only thing that didn't know was that the Hwabiman Quisatshaderak was a being that went his own way and moved according to his own plan, and therefore was an entity that was impossible to condition in the first place. That's why I'm certain that Paul is a perfect Quisatshaderak, despite the owner's claims. And I think that perfection was not the moment he drank the sandworm's water and became enlightened, but the moment he escaped the trap of the Tuleylax represented by the face dancer Sidetail and truly became free from the prophecy, that is, the moment he became completely blind. At that moment, Paul Atreides was completely free from the scale of human destiny. If we compare Paul to Buddha, the moment of awakening is the moment Buddha attained enlightenment, and the moment he became completely blind is the moment Buddha died and ceased to exist anywhere in the three lives. So who is Leto II? It's the path that Paul didn't take, the path that Paul rejected. And the moment Leto II opens his eyes, Paul's eyes close forever. In other words, Leto II is a phoenix born from the ashes of Paul. Leto II is a Quisat Hadelock like Paul, but he is an entity excluded from Paul's prophecy, that is, Paul himself. The eye that sees everything cannot see only itself. In other words, as Quisat Hadelock, Paul and Leto II are the same entity. However, Leto II fuses with a sandworm for the 'Golden Path'. However, the fact that Leto II exists intact inside the sandworm in the scene where Leto II dies shows that even though Leto is a god-in-the-sandworm, he is not a being that has completely transcended humanity. This is the tragedy. For over 3,000 years, Leto II was a human, but some thought of him as Quisat Hadelock, some as a god-emperor, and some as a great sandworm.

[@diaco423]

loved the video, i still want to believe that Paul is still and willl be a good person and leader

[@Tayler_Oliver]

great video🎉

[@Shaan_Suri]

Well done video, thank you

[@honzikklima6181]

It is important to mention that the sisterhood had taught themselves many abilities. Including slowing their aging significantly. They however were disciplined enough to refrain from using this skill. It is specifically stated that it would bring too much attention to them. They sacrifice their egos…. They sacrifice much for the greater good. Important!

[@sterlingdennett]

The Bene Gesserit wanted their Kwisatz Haderach to be born under their control and raised to be completely and absolutely obedient to their wishes. They would then use his power to totally control human destiny - FOREVER. The BG were NOT the good guys, here!

[@PrzybyszzMatplanety]

The point is there are no good guys in Dune whatsoever, Atreides may look like them in comparison to Harkonnens only. BG main objective was to reach peak of human potential and leave humanity as something far superior it ever was, but it doesn't mean they were benevolent order of loving nuns.

[@mak2ma]

yet they're the inadvertent victors of the story, they achieved their goals of peak human existence and removing the threat of their extinction (the scattering) 😉

[@chickenburger1207]

There’s no photos in Dune lore?? Why can’t the Fremen fathom an Ocean?? They’ve NEVER seen a photo of it??

[@mattrozdoba5660]

Great tone

[@EclipseEH]

I need question answered I have one and only problem/plot hole from Dune that I cannot seem to forget about. Why is it that the Bene G say Paul must remain alive in part 1. But in part 2 Moheim just says it was the Bene G’s plan all along to Kill Paul and end the Atreites bloodline?

[@uwesca6263]

Change of plans. Also paul was not the only person who could be ancestor to the kwisatz haderach. The other one was the nephew of baron harkonnen, and they collected his seed between the movies to make sure they can continue their plan (it get some screentime in the book). At this point paul was a liability.

[@chasx7062]

Well the Space Karens couldnt control Paul, so he was NOT their puppy kwisatz haderach, so he needed to die... Question is why didnt they control Jessica to control Paul? Villeneuve's movie made it seem that Jessica was the driving force for Paul's vengeance

[@KymHammond]

Not all Bene Gesserit had female, some has sons. And those that were born all needed to be tested for their prescient abilities: to be able to handle pain and to test the strength of their minds so that they could be used in the breeding program. In a dropped scene after Paul kills Feyed-Rutha a cousin of the emperors steps forward to try and kill Paul. Paul immediately recognizes him as another like himself so Jessica/s choice to have a son was an extreme gamble. Moheim chose to recognize Paul as he passed the test. The Bene Gesserit wanted to kill him as he was showing up in their visions as a disruption to the breeding plan and the stability of the Empire

[@EclipseEH]

Nobody answered my question lolz…..Why did the Bene Gessesit order to kill the Paul and the atreides while also not wanting Paul or Jessica harmed?? Like moheim says in Part 2 that she ordered the emperor to give spice control to the Atreides because they wanted Paul dead but then in part 1 she is very clear “they are under our protection”

[@chasx7062]

@@EclipseEH The Bene Gesserit were schemers, the space karen's lied all the time to mind trick their acolytes !!! Of course they didnt want to kill Jessica... i believe in the books it was the spacing Guild who wanted to kill Paul coz they saw him as the bigger threat than his father

[@CitizenScott]

By disobeying the BG's order to birth a daughter, Jessica subverted the BG's plans to create their own controllable version of the Kwisatz Haderach. By truly delivering on the promises of the manufactured Mahdi prophecy, Paul subverted the BG's Machiavellian power play, and became the true Lisan Al-Gaib. By recognizing his mistake and walking away from his position of power, Paul subverted his own evil empire, and became a true Prophet; a true Hero.

[@fer662]

"humanity's survival depends on both understanding the past and the future avoiding the repetition of same mistakes". And that is an extreme idea?

[@ValaritasYT]

no, breeding humans and creating a super-human is an extreme idea.

[@steveplummer5779]

The thing I love about this is that it's in contrast to the typical false messiah narrative. Typically in stories the prophecies already exist and someone twists them or uses tricks to fool people into believing that they fulfill these prophecies. But is Paul a Messiah? I mean, if a deity lays a plan and puts seeds through religion into a culture, they're called prophets, laying the way for a messiah. The stories are planted. It's hope force fed to people, just like what the Bene Gesserit did. By having prophecies fulfilled, it builds faith in said deity. The proof is in the fulfillment of the so called prophecies, not how those prophecies were laid. So, sisterhood (with superhuman abilities already, near deity level manipulation of the entirety of humanity) or god, it doesn't matter. Prophets were sent, prophecies were made, and they were fulfilled. Paul IS a messiah. The mistake is assuming a messiah is a good thing. Many real life religious messiahs also bring peace for a group but war and death for a great deal of people. Yes, Paul did not reach the pinnacle of "godhood" that the sisters were originally after. But the proof is in the results. He freed the Fremen, and Arrakis bloomed again.

[@KymHammond]

It is the inner human dimensions that the Bene Gesserit and the Kwisatz Haderach share through prescience which is spiritually associated with the Golden Path, as the salvation for humanity. The Kwisatz Haderach is a savoir in the sense that his becoming makes it possible for the Bene Gesserit to action the Golden Path. At this point however and had his becoming happened at the right moment they all would have been sharing a God like consciousness. Paul is only a Messiah really for the Freman based on the myths and prophecies the Bene Gesserit has spread so that they could work safely. For the Freman the prophesies for filled their collective desire for a home world paradise that they were willing to fight as an army for.

[@JustWatchingVideo56]

The point was to have the genetic history of both the Harkonnen and the Atreides but Lady Jessica was already a Harkonnen so the point was mute. Paul was Harkonnen and Atreides. Also the plan was incestuous since it would’ve been a Harkonnen niece and uncle getting together.

[@carmelopappalardo8477]

They never would have received their Messiah because House Harkonan would have wiped out the Atreides line.

[@amols2169]

those were Jamis' words

[@josephbcarter]

Good vids bro. Only complaint is that you mispronounce key words…. Chani, Sietch, Muad’dib, etc. Just clean it up man!

[@timothydawson2689]

On point in every way, thank you.

[@movieverse2626]

well done video!

[@hammerofluke2013]

I love these videos

[@JohanMartens1]

Your assessment on the continuation of wars during the Messiah era is wrong. If you read books 4-6 it is very clear that during the Emperor Leto era wars all but stopped. This was one of the pillars of the Golden Path. Leto enforced peace so that during the Famine times people would have a yearning for Chaos. In the Chapterhouse books it is very clear however that even then, thousands of years later, violence has significantly been reduced amongst the 10,000 planets. It is explicitly stated in the beginning of book 5 that it one of the lessons of the Golden Path.

[@sarasweet3578]

I just do not understand WHY arrakis and the Fremen were chosen in the Bene Gesserit plans? Because of spice or what?

[@uwesca6263]

Spice is the most important substance in the universe, without it there would be no revered mothers (they need spice in their creation). It is extrem important therefore having a strong grip on it is necessary.

[@KymHammond]

Spice gave humans superhuman abilities with which to defeat the robot machine and then to manipulate the very fabric of space-time itself. The spice is the substance that all humans now rely on for maintaining power.

[@sarasweet3578]

@@uwesca6263 so how did they know/ensure that the kwisach would end up on arrakis? Was it coincidental that the emperor sent the atreides to arrakis or did the Bene gesserit “guide” that to test if Paul was the one?

[@uwesca6263]

@@sarasweet3578 it was a plan in the making for thousand of years. I suppose the original idea was to have the kwisach being born and molded by the bene gesserit and than enter arakis as their prophesized messiah. With this the fremen would immediatly follow the kwisach and kick of anyone who currently rule over arrakis giving the sisterhood the sole power of spice. And with their widespread network of agents and the strongest army there is they could ruled the known universe. That paul ended up on arrakis was kinda surprising. But the emperor sent leto to death for his extrem charisma, charisma strong enough that a bene gesserit gave him a son despite not allowed to do so by her order. You see the emperor ordered his with of giving him a son, which she refused. So leto could make something even the emperor could not. This among other things marked leto for death.

[@sarasweet3578]

@@uwesca6263 okay I see. Thank you for your responses !

[@dilekbozkurt5584]

Great video! Thx 🫶🏻

[@Maniac742]

Dune's messiah isn't a lie. That's what really terrifying about it. False messiah's are easier to counteract and put down than real ones, you just have to expose the lies. Real messiah's don't just command the loyalty and devotion of their people, they command a tangible power, like Paul's prescience. Paul doesn't have to lie to his people to convince them. Everything he says is true. It's true because for him, it's already happened. He's just going through the motions. The Fremen don't believe Paul is something he isn't. He's exactly who they think he is, and that's the most horrifying part of all. He's going to burn down the universe with their hands, and they're ok with it.

[@FargoMorgan]

Frank Hubert I never expected to be so wise.

[@chasx7062]

The Last Jedi?? LOL

[@iansandoval818]

I think we can enjoy his books without agreeing with him.

[@bigbenguitarslinger494]

In many ways, the messianic arc of Paul Atreides /Muad'dib is very much like the Islamic Mahdi. Arabic culture resonates through the tone of Dune,and middle eastern feel echoes through much of the story. The heavy emphasis on genealogy also is a nod to Jewish and Christian ideas as well,as the geneology of Jesus is detailed in two of the synoptic gospels. Jesus also subverted the messianic expectations of Judaism in real life,much as Paul does the expectations of the bene geserit in this story.

[@morgoth4962]

yessss more dune content please 🎉🎉

[@alsimmonshellspawn6021]

How is paul atreides superhuman if he fight with the same strength speed and durability of a regular human? Or maybe the movies got it wrong

[@MonigMedia]

Yooo Alan Alda could play Leto in the next film lol

[@leedutch5155]

I always felt that Paul doomed the Fremen

[@stephengrant4841]

He kinda did. In the later books set several thousand years after Paul was alive, the Fremen are dirt beggars.

[@juansanders-ck1ol]

@@stephengrant4841he didn’t he’ll Leto is half fremen

[@carmelopappalardo8477]

Leto II also was not the Messiah. He needed to seal the bloodline and that was not happening with his birth.

[@kenydemeza]

The sisters were the true villains in the story lol

[@KymHammond]

The imperium is the villain in exactly the same way it remains today.

[@daniels7907]

No, they actually weren't. That's an idea that comes more from the film adaptations more than from the novel series. Paul is a crybaby because Reverend Mother Mohiam made him undergo the test of humanity, which *all* Bene Gesserit have to undergo, and Paul had received BG training. Because Mohiam actually preferred that Paul survive the conspiracy against House Atriedes, after the test she instructs Jessica to skip ahead in Paul's BG training because Mohiam feels that he will need to have the Voice. Note that by this point everybody (including Paul) knows that this relocation to Arrakis is a trap. Duke Leto simply chose to face it head-on, rather than take the House and flee into exile. Yes, the BGs would turn against Paul. Given that he unleashed a jihad that killed *61 BILLION people* is that really the wrong thing to do? Alia really did suffer from abomination, so was it wrong for the Sisterhood to be worried about that too?

[@KymHammond]

@@daniels7907Paul's mistrust of the sisterhood at the time of his testing comes from his father and other teachers. He most likely understood that his mother was meant to have a daughter.

[@daniels7907]

@@KymHammond - That doesn't mean that the Sisterhood wanted Paul dead (at first). Nor Jessica and Leto really. Indeed, Jessica *did* conceive a daughter (Alia) just before the attack on House Atriedes. The BG breeding program could still achieve its goals. Paul was bitter about the test, even though *all* BGs have to do it. He also resented their closeness to the Emperor, and he had unrealistic expectations as to just how overtly they could manipulate the Emperor. Basically, Paul just wanted to blame *somebody* for Imperial court intrigues and he didn't want to blame his father, who led the House to Arrakis despite being fully aware that it was a trap. Indeed, that it was a trap was the worst kept "secret" in the Imperium.

[@KymHammond]

@@daniels7907Never mentioned the order wanting Paul dead. Jessica conceived after Paul was tested and had survived. When exactly is not known. A bit late to try and get the breeding program back on track when they had already backed the move. Insisting on Paul's petulance is a strange remove from the story.

[@larwickas195]

Great voice

[@teamBUCK]

Thank you!

[@trumanshow162]

Kwisatz Haderach will be the “mentat reverend Emperor” with the super processing power & ancestral memories for administration. It’s like a supercomputer with AI software & big data. I was shocked to find that we are all gaining such power with developing technologies and our humane utilization is vital for the future. I recognized that “Dune” is a prophetic masterpiece.

[@AlfredoPuente8]

Funny how they were right about how the Messiah had to be the next generation after Paul.

[@ThirdLawPair]

So what is the golden path?

[@ValaritasYT]

I will make a video about it!

[@chasx7062]

To "teach humanity a lesson that they will remember in their bones": that sheltered safety was tantamount to utter death, however long it would be delayed. In essence, another breeding program LOL with a special gene to prevent people with Prescience from manipulating people and seeing the future. Also involving terraforming Arrakis, thus killing the worms and curtailing space travel. This Oppression made people more curious and eager to explore so when Leto II finally dies as determines, his death will trigger baby worms from his body to turn Arrakis back into the desert and produce spice again and allow humanity to explore far and wide to escape from oppression and future tyrants... (Although this is just Elon Musk wet dream to spread Human Stupidity across the Universe)

[@obuadhachain]

5:38 - I am in agreement w Tolkien whose comments were subtle, respectful, yet telling. And Frank's words (the quote), though strong, are also complicated and wordy. This is NOT to say I wouldn't enjoy Hearing from Frank H were I alive then. I DO though enjoy the most recent DUNE by Denis V. Frankly, I wonder if he has not taken it in a different direction - sticking with it yes, but in part veering in another direction. There is Nothing Wrong with Paul doing all that he has done - there is a LOT of nobility in fact - and I am in agreement with Denis V up to this point. I do not see nobility in all of the OTHER "powers" of the tale - accepting that of his mother. Again, it is my opinoin that DV is purposfully taking the whole story into a New and Better version - One of Bravery, Courage, Mindfulness, Truth-telling, and a reliance upon Not "Powers" as much as Perseverance, Leadership, and keeping one's promises.

[@awsdxd3315]

More dune pls❤❤❤❤

[@charlesthompson5645]

It’s not a lie of passed down legend comes true. The benne geserit had no idea if they would come true so it was in no one persons partaking to say it was a lie. It is not manipulation either because we are Christ it’s not wrong to birth ourselves we do it every breathing moment. It’s when a culmination of random planning and meandering cometogether is when we deem something divine. Paul is a prophet undeniably he is also Christ to arakis for saving it from its own nature.

[@barbara9315]

They pretended that there was a prophesy for a god saviour, and real God laughed in their faces and actually gave them one for their hubris(possibly).

[@IronicWhite769]

Bunny Jesus.

[@thunkin-ai]

not enough is said about the bene gessirt plans IMO

[@EDDIETRUJILLO-q8p]

Too bad the Tleilaxu and Ixians didn't join together.

[@mak2ma]

LITERALLY, i want a fanon piece where that happens so bad

[@muskistutter]

This is why I don’t want a third Dune movie. Its just fucking depressing.

[@mak2ma]

is this Tolkien's burner account 😭😭😭