Why Eggman VS Bowser WAS NEVER CLOSE! | Mario VS Sonic

[@abyss-aster8748]

I think the biggest issue when it comes to the mario universe is that it isn't really easy to properly scale them unlike sonic who isn't afraid to show their feats and such, which in turns allows scaling to be smoother, Mario games overall were just more comical, never really trying to like show scaling, so kinda hard to really scale stuff with the mario universe but that's just my thought on the matter.

[@bigg2472]

Scaling in general is dumb honestly

[@Saysikern68]

Because cartoonish video games like Mario don't care about power scaling but that's a good thing if you ask him.

[@NathanBronson-oh4ju]

Smash ultimate = Bowser surviving a reality level catastrophe and then gaining that power from Galeem when they were at full strength. Multiversal and universal shy in comparison to reality because all the sonic universes and multiverses are contained in the sonic reality, which Bowser could destroy plus, they were fighting in the Mario reality and so there might be a speed cap there.

[@Katloverking]

@@NathanBronson-oh4juuhhhh dude you do realize smash Bros isn’t Canon right? If it was, that would be putting characters like sonic at the same level of characters like ice climbers? like seriously there’s no way you can’t know this.

[@shrapt3528]

@@Saysikern68 Or that it's because not every mario in the mario games are the same mario considering peach's castle looking different with no real world explanation as to why. Some games are linked but the RPG games aren't linked to the 3D platform games. That's why when people say Mario vs Sonic, they have to take Mario from every mario game (comp mario minus paper and comic mario)

[@BahumutTH]

First rule of VS battles: never take it seriously. Never forget Death Battle is not the delfacto authority of VS battles its just another opinionated take, even with research it could still have bias put in. The only way you could have a conclusive and honest outcome is if both companies get together and decide who is stronger but that will never happen.

[@Rathlon9541]

Finally someone i agree with

[@subjectnivleis7572]

Facts my opinion while watching with a friend who was pro bowser we agreed that of it was eggman and bowser in a hand to hand fight bowser wins hands down but if eggman gets everything at his disposal he wins

[@sonicfanmanrealreal5629]

yeah but we can still argue why we disagree lol, and why not take it somewhat seriously? if you just throw around random nonsense and goof around its no fun to scale because there is no basis

[@Yamatonix11]

@@subjectnivleis7572 I would still dispute that just because Bowser has just as many world-breaking and universe-bending gadgets and macguffins at his disposal. Plus on top of that, Bowser is notoriously hard to put down, he has been turned into nothing but bones several times, and comes back eventually. Plus, as the DB guys said, he has his troops loyally fighting for and with him, whereas Eggman controls his through fear or remote control.

[@mikon-j3f]

Honestly the ''don't take death battle seriously'' is a 50/50 point, because yeah, it's just some random youtube channel despite how big it is and there is no reason to get SO MAD at it, but at the same time you can agree or disagree with their results (or even debate about them) and arguments as long as you ACTUALLY hear them, because i kind of get sick of people saying ''death battle is biased'' just to directly don't explain how they are (don't bring mario vs sonic 2018, we all know that fight is sh*t, but it was six years ago)

[@leafonthewindy]

This whole thing falls into the same overanalyzation trap as Mario vs Sonic, Eggman's shonen powerscaling of "this will be even MORE powerful than previously established insanely powerful thing I've done!" versus the cartoonish reality warping nature of Bowser being as strong as the narrative needs him to be

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@leafonthewindy so a cop out answer

[@MindForgedManacle]

@@TheGamingRift11 That's not what cop out means dude. It's borderline like complaining about how hard it is to scale looney tunes characters.

[@notarobber5387]

@@leafonthewindy You can argue the chaos emeralds are as strong as they need to be too. Even starline states that the chaos emeralds fluctuate in power based on scenario

[@ItalysArtHouse]

​@@notarobber5387and even then, you have the Master Emerald, which is debatably stronger than the Super Emeralds, which gave access to the hyper form therefore scaling the Master Emerald above the hyper form if we're using this "as strong as it needs to be" logic.

[@leafonthewindy]

@@TheGamingRift11 I'm sorry but any argument in Eggman's favour will fall flat when Bowser's motherfucking CHANCE TIME from MARIO PARTY is in the power scaling equation

[@that1guy712]

I‘m still waiting for the day in which death battle realizes how big of a role cosmology plays in powerscaling. Trust me, cosmology can make a character busted af

[@BrightBeamBang]

Yeah, it's true. And Cosmology is one of the main reasons why Sonic is so overpowered.

[@Tari_10_Editz]

Death battle: What's cosmology?

[@philace9]

Cosmetology what's that?

[@that1guy712]

@@philace9 The science of the origin and development of the universe. That’s also the reason why real life humans are stronger than fictional characters

[@Skynetbear]

@@that1guy712 They’ve compared cosmologies numerous times Literally any time a Marvel or DC character is brought up they mention the scale of their universes as well as the Dragon Ball universe This comment isn’t really true

[@CausalViewer23]

Could Eggaman not just use the time eater and bring the Titians from frontiers and use them against bowser? That’s four super sonic level opponents also Eggman with the ruby can literally make an army of metal sonics and infinites.

[@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday]

Yeah Death Battle has flaws for a completely accurate fight for both Bowser and Eggman

[@ThegrandKrild]

King boo could control the titans

[@percivalknightoftheflames855]

​@@ThegrandKrildLOL no💀

[@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday]

​@ThegrandKrild Ok tell me how?

[@JeremyKent-td8ed]

That about bowser and eggman army 💀

[@Bankai-bp1qj]

I personally feel like there is one flaw in this argument. And it's that Eggman is a notorious big talker. In most cases, he exaggerates or downright fabricates the power of his creation. Let's be real, if Infinite really was "a trillion times stronger" than anything Eggman has created (in the Japanese version), then even with the six month power boost, Forces Sonic should still get clapped by Infinite and it wouldn't even be close. But, that's my opinion, what are your thoughts?

[@solaris3251]

@@Bankai-bp1qj Infinite claped Sonic after the six months time skip, Sonic only faired better because infinite was not full power at the moment.

[@DamashiTheKaotic]

Eggman is a shit talker, but he is still a reliable source of information.

[@Sonicdxunleashed]

Infinite literally one shots sonic in their second encounter and only when sonic had help he beats him and at the end of the game sonic surpasses infinite

[@StrangestDetriment08..-]

Infinite clapped Sonic many times. The resistance were almost wiped out if it wasn't for the power for friend ship and shit writing on Infinite's dude. Sonic shouldn't have been able to touch Infinite at base cuz that'll be like regular Sonic vs Super Sonic

[@SuperGamefreak18]

@@StrangestDetriment08..-I agree that the show case basically states that there is some truth to his info but it’s Always Big talk on some level

[@Skynetbear]

I feel like people are forgetting just how absolutely busted Kamek is I’ve seen people say that nobody in the Koopa troop can stop Metal Sonic and that using the Phantom Ruby meant that he could create clones of his strongest soldier but Y’know who else could do that? Kamek He has the ability to turn himself and any basic Mario enemy into exact clones of Bowser and can shut down any crazy abilities like his Chaos Control or Bio-data scan from a distance like he did in Mario and Luigi Paper Jam And Time Eater is powerful but Bowser has fought similar beings before like Culex and Bowser himself is also able to time travel by pure magic without any other relics Also unrelated to Kamek but you really undersold the arsenal that Bowser has at his disposal like the Star Rod that made him completely invincible and the Pure Hearts which would have undone the effects of the Chaos Heart which was going to erase all of existence

[@solaris3251]

@@Skynetbear No one's denying Bowser's op hax, the thing is that most of those things wouldn't even come in handy considering the huge gap in scaling between the Mario and Sonic Universes.

[@Dragonfire-ir5ln]

Kamek is NOT scaling high enough to do anything to shut down chaos control

[@solaris3251]

@@Dragonfire-ir5ln Yeah, like, he doesn't even scale to Bowser, let alone the chaos emeralds.

[@Skynetbear]

@@Dragonfire-ir5lnThat’s assuming Kamek is fighting a one on one fight, he’s a tactical fighter that knows to keep his distance when there are stronger allies to keep the opponent busy. He doesn’t need to get up close to use his powers anyways Other powers like his telekinesis can wipe out any fodder minions in an instant in Eggman’s army just like how Metal Sonic can Not to mention that there are literal hundreds of Magikoopas like Kamek that are skilled in the exact same magic who can also transmute others

[@Dragonfire-ir5ln]

@Skynetbear did you not watch the part of the video where he said those fodder enemies from 06 were egg salamander levels-

[@SlothUnspoken]

I view this death battle as one that can change depending on the future of both series. Like maybe in a couple of years Nintendo gives bowser a minion that can control all electronics with no limits.

[@mcpics4448]

That applies to a lot with their MU. It’s why the community loving calls it the Death Battle curse

[@davidgarcia5988]

There are enemy bats known as Swoops that can disable electronics by just flying near them

[@mynameisntimportant1374]

Bowser already wins now and he already has a counter like that

[@mynameisntimportant1374]

@@davidgarcia5988they never touched eggman robots

[@davidgarcia5988]

@@mynameisntimportant1374 I know. I'm pointing out one of Bowser's minions that can actually fuck up Eggman's bots.

[@180223]

Screwattack has not existed since 2019...

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@180223 you know what I mean 🥱

[@Hamantha]

@@TheGamingRift11yes, and you’re basically crediting the wrong people. If you’re not able to get the people who made this right, why at all should we believe the video?

[@sans101]

​@@Hamanthaexactly

[@Warking19]

I definitely think saying its not closed is a little glazing. The fight is pretty debatable

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@Warking19 when the speed gap is this ridiculously different and Even mid tier eggman mechs replicate bowsers best showings Yeah it isn’t close in its current state

[@Warking19]

@TheGamingRift11 I personally disagree with eggmans mechs keeping up with sonic at full power. Mainly because Sonic also never runs at top speed when fighting eggman. I also feel like you didn't really give bowser everything speed wise. He does have incalculable speed arguments like sonic. It's not as consistent but it's still there. Finally dreamy bowser isn't made of 100000 dreams. We don't know how many people were on the island. What we do know is that bowsers minions were on the island when it happened. As of brothership bowser is stated to have 98 million troops under his command. Obviously not every single minion went to the island but it should bump up the total to more than 100000

[@Warking19]

@TheGamingRift11 Hold on there's something I forgot. Dreamy bowser and dimentio isn't his best feat. His best feat is battling and beating Culax from super mario rpg

[@solaris3251]

@@Warking19 What you mean? Culax is fodder.

[@Warking19]

@@solaris3251 Culax is just mario solaris.

[@Legacy-b5e]

You know, despite being a Sonic fan, I forgot about the bat sh*t insane scaling of Sonic characters. Originally my thought was “Well Eggman would be similar to Batman in which he would need prep time” but then you so graciously reminded me “oh yeah this guy’s robots literally scale around Sonic at times” So yeah Eggman sweeps if they gave both their entire arsenal. (Also side note I REALLY don’t agree with how Infinite immediately dies like 5 seconds after he appears it’s really stupid.)

[@TheZetoBlade]

With Infinite It's kinda funny in the moment, but when you really think about it that shouldn't have happened.

[@Tripple_777-3]

​@@TheZetoBladefr😭 allat hype just to get thwomped

[@titaniumstar1772]

Apparently its been confirmed that infinite didnt die, hes just underneath that thwomp reconsidering his entire life

[@DanDaMan1]

​@@titaniumstar1772 💀

[@metaldragmire8539]

Infinite getting crushed by Thwomp is a reference to another video. I don’t get why people are upset about this. It’s a joke. This isn’t his Death Battle. He is simply a pawn here. I would get it if it was about him.

[@rockstarpyro1581]

Okay, I could go on a long tangent but I just really want to say one thing that bothers me about these debunks (Of this matchup in specific, which mind you, I am completely fine with you disagreeing it is a very debatable match up) Just because they SAY that the egg dragoon is Eggman's most powerful machine so far doesn't mean it actually is, otherwise we'd have to accept Bowser's 4 digit IQ meaning that Bowser's brain is superior and therefore he can beat Eggman, also just because Sonic is MFTL doesn't mean Infinite also is, after all you have to prove that Sonic was actually traveling at his peak speed when against Infinite and there's nothing to indicate that

[@solaris3251]

Welcome to powerscaling my brother, the place where people pull out the most bs argument out of their asses in order to justify their characters powers.

[@leedlebob2667]

@@solaris3251 It's also the place where people try to rip each other's throats out for whatever reason.... why do people get so heated over this stuff?

[@martezjones7876]

Sonic legitimately got speed blitz by infinite that makes him mfl to irrelevant speeds due to generations secondly why would eggman not make this mechanism more powerful why would he use the same mechanism over and over. But sonic scaling is weird so I'm glad death battle didn't make speed a factor

[@leedlebob2667]

@@martezjones7876 I decided to watch all the cutscenes from forces (horrific ik). But tails right after saying infinite is faster said "no, it's something else). Infinite likely just displaced his actual position so sonic couldn't touch him, no matter how fast.

[@epiccarrot88]

No, you wouldn't. One is a statement by Bowser, not meant to be taken seriously. Another is a description from the game itself, not a statement by Eggman. The Forces scaling falls under this issue, but not the Egg Dragoon. Also no, Sonic is immeasurable, not MFTL. And yes, the fact Infinite could keep up with Sonic even after Sonic knew what a threat he was does mean Infinite scales.

[@saps1453]

It's like Deathbattle forgot Eggman has a bajillion back up plans as well In the Battle, they showed Eggman only had like 3 back up plans, first was Neo Metal using the Emeralds, second was the Death Egg (which is like one of his worst things), and the Metal Virus which would have been useless against Bowser because of his hax

[@FatalGod404]

When you look back at the series eggman doesn’t have as many good examples of backup plans examples: Perfect Chaos The Arc Black Doom Neo Metal Sonic The flames of disaster Dark Gaia The black hole from colors The Zeti The phantom ruby Any time he fights super sonic Eggman is a massive egotistical genius so he always expects to win, but as seen throughout the years he doesn’t really have a lot of back up plans seeing as again eggman ALWAYS EXPECTS TO WIN

[@caseypitt1296]

How many of those back up plans have actually worked out?

[@henrymalloy1344]

@@caseypitt1296 In idw he baited starline with a mech with a obvious design flaw so he would use up all his power. and starline was almost as smart as Eggman himself.

[@saps1453]

@@caseypitt1296 I never said they worked but he could have planned against Bowser way better than he did in the fight

[@BoomBoxBlaz]

@@caseypitt1296 because he was fighting characters like Sonic, who has plot armor.

[@OtomostheCrazy]

Uh… I guess since I’m getting involved in other comments I should voice my thoughts as well. I personally have no problem with the result. Bowser has some very strange abilities that I haven’t seen Eggman go up against before, and vice versa, so I felt like it’d make more sense to give it to the character that has to deal with the most random nonsense, which is honestly Bowser. Eggman also has to deal with nonsense, but it was at least consistent. Ivo tries to take over the world > Sonic/Shadow/Knuckles/Anthropomorphic creature shows up and messes with his plans > try to find something else to use (and maybe allow it to get too strong/resistant to his control) > repeat Bowser is similar, but he’s not being beaten by Mario finding a super star or mega mushroom every final battle. He had to deal with wonder effects, Mario and friends turned into frikking elephants, suddenly they can put on cat suits and use cherries to make clones, his grand stars were stolen and suddenly black holes destroy everything and they have to reside in a new galaxy that Rosalina helped nurture, his powers get sealed away from some sort of physical debilitation and Mario and Luigi end up inside his body, etc. He goes through a lot of bizarre stuff, so I feel like someone like that would be more ready to handle a new threat on-the-spot. However, I am not a power scaler, so that’s about where my arguments end. If it’s not shown, I can’t deduce their attributes. I don’t know how Sonic has infinite speed in base form when you can’t do that in-game, and I don’t know how a boss has resistance to things they haven’t been shown resisting -_-‘ Interesting video though!

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

That’s the problem with the Sonic scaling presented in this video. It’s pure wank. All he did was putting generous hyperboles and statements on top of each other to make them seem more overpowered. He relied on manuals to wank Infinite and Sonic a lot but then conveniently ignores them when they make Sonic only a "hypersonic hedgehog" like the one from Sonic Adventure. He relied on character statements like Sonic claiming he gets faster every second in Sonic Forces but completely ignores those like Sonic claiming he was too slow to save Tails in time in Sonic Lost World since they don’t go his way.

[@HypercomboProduction]

Funny you mention the cat suit and Double Cherry. Bowser uses both of those in his final boss fight in that game. So it would be funny that after all that work Eggman takes to harm Bowser, 31 more Bowsers shows up.

[@Yamatonix11]

To be fair, Dragonball Z runs into the same problem, and our conclusion is that power levels are, indeed, absolute Bullsh*t. Sonic universe is no exception. Look at the sonic fanboys mald and mope over the outcome, bringing out comments like "BUT INFINITE WOULD KILL THEM ALL" nevermind the obvious hard counters that Bowser's army had (granted, Kamek had a lot of those counters, but honestly considering how much carrying Metal Sonic had to do, I think Kamek kind of balances out somewhat). This is giving me "Super Man vs. Goku" vibes with how this is all playing out, with the Sonic fans being much like the Goku fans, "but it wasn't even his final form!!!!" or "what about MacGuffin XYZ??"

[@HypercomboProduction]

@@Yamatonix11 i know what you mean. I just met a Sonic fan who didn't know Ian Flynn was the writer of IDW. As well as saying Metal fought Super Sonic after Solaris, but when I asked them for a source, they told me to look up Sonic's battle abilities on a wiki.

[@drilltank-6603]

I honestly feel like this is more of an ideological argument rather than something that can be properly analyzed and scaled. Both series have been running for decades at this point and both have power scaling that's completely out of control, so to use all possible elements means that both sides scale functionally infinitely. Bowser and Eggman BOTH cross those infinitely scaling lines, just in different ways and at different points. So to me, it's kind of pointless to even try because it just falls into the same traps as every other power scaling argument: There's no actual way to quantify it meaningfully. So my mentality is that it should come down to how each side uses the resources and tricks at their disposal, and THAT'S where things can be quantified at a level that can actually be kept track of. In terms of ambitions and goals, Bowser's usually pretty reserved and only wants to take over the Mushroom Kingdom and marry Princess Peach. Anytime his ambitions shift is still usually grounded in that initial goal or to remove Mario from the picture, which makes even Mario Galaxy look amusingly petty in terms of motivation. Eggman wants to take over the world at a minimum, meaning his operations scale accordingly. In terms of industry and scale? Eggman hands down. Unless I'm missing something, Bowser's operations are again more modest in scope and scale and while he absolutely leans more heavily into magic it's still, well... usually limited. He's clearly got the ability to manufacture an armada of flying ships and maintain their upkeep, and can arm/protect most of his ground forces in a comparable manner, but I don't think it's ever shown to be disproportionate to his territory and lean into more of a fantasy medieval aesthetic. Meanwhile, Eggman doesn't have a defined territory but tends to have vast swaths of fully automated military bases, research labs, mines, oil fields, you name it and he'll probably either have it on tap or can whip something up in a terrifyingly short time frame. On top of that, his operations tend to scale to an absurd degree, yet it's sometimes hard to remember that the doctor was never modest to begin with. One of his opening acts was an orbital space station! He tends to just be more adaptable in general, with a high-tech slant toward everything he does. In terms of tricks and hacks? This one's honestly a lot more even than it looks. Speed scaling aside, Bowser's a savant at handling anything even remotely magical and only faceplants when it's malign or evil in nature, so he mostly just falls into the same pits Eggman does in underestimating the artifact/overestimating his ability to control it through sheer force of will. If anything, I was more shocked that he didn't start using the Phantom Ruby when he stole it since Forces noted that there doesn't seem to be any real requirements for using it. That does start to lean into an actual issue, though, but I'll get to that in a minute. Eggman's usually pretty good at figuring out or making solid use of whatever he finds, though again he's on even ground with Bowser in that his ego's a problem and tends to hamstring him. So I'll just call it a draw here. And honestly, my reasoning won't give either an edge past this point because it starts leaning into their respective faults and strengths. ...Another criteria is actual leadership, but honestly? Both are iffy on this front for frighteningly similar reasons. Most all of it stems from the fact that Bowser and Eggman are part of completely different worlds that can't actually do anything to hold either of them back. The Mushroom Kingdom (or really any kingdom Bowser invades with the actual intent to invade) almost never actually repels Bowser, and the Sonic version of Earth just gets steamrolled by Eggman without Sonic around to keep him in check. Neither side uses proper strategy, both would just ram into each other at full tilt until one side breaks because that's how their respective HEROES work. It's what they actually have to care about and how they would approach this sort of fight. So it mostly comes down to a mix of where the power is concentrated in each army and how each side uses their resources. The worst part is, both Bowser and Eggman are perfectly capable of fighting smart and dirty as they need to, but both have an almost crippling need to win in their own way, on their own terms. For Bowser, the power is disproportionately concentrated into him. He's the king and his seemingly endless potential and raw determination puts him so far above his own army that honestly, they might as well have not bothered showing up to the main fight outside of Kamek. Eggman's power is conversely more concentrated into his army, and shockingly enough his constant drive to one-up everyone up to and including himself means he regularly makes creations that he can barely control and are either broken from the get-go or have absurd potential. Metal's the prime example of this because he's Eggman's attempt at one-upping Sonic, and hence why Metal trashes most of Bowser's army single-handedly when everyone else falls flat. He has the raw scaling needed to take on Bowser and the sense to take things seriously when everyone else might as well be clowning around. (Which coincidentally why Infinite gets bodied despite supposedly being similar. In Forces, Eggman's largely competent and deadly serious for once while Infinite is power tripping and making all he mistakes Eggman usually makes. It doesn't matter how strong you are, if you're fooling around too much you're going to get bodied eventually.) In a way, this is a battle of ego. Bowser and Eggman both are too prideful and egotistical to leverage their strength properly, and if you largely make the fight between them it makes sense Bowser comes out on top because you can't keep him down reliably. Thanks to his own will and the support of his army, he can grow giant, assume new forms, even come back as Dry Bowser even if you DO kill him. Conversely, wreck Eggman's mechs and he has to run back to base to grab something else. Eggman is personally not strong enough to face Bowser head-on directly. The question is more if Bowser can reach Eggman in the first place, and the answer is 'Only because Eggman insists on taking Bowser on directly.' Let's not forget, when BOWSER gets invaded, it doesn't tend to end so well for him. The Shroobs are the biggest example of this, and Fawful certainly gets his shots in one game later, and in most every case it's because Bowser gets sucker punched or tricked in a way that's outside of his usual bag of tricks. Plus, let's not pretend that Bowser's rationality doesn't fly out the window when he's dealing with Mario. And the worst part is, when Eggman's not crippling himself by feeding his ego, he's got a lethal level of efficiency that Bowser couldn't hope to match. It's like how Eggman put it to Dr. Starline: He could just bomb Sonic out of existence, he has the means and resources to track Sonic down and blow him up without a real fight. Heck, there's a couple instances where Eggman easily gets the upper hand against Sonic (Adventure up until Chaos breaks loose, Adventure 2 is the bigger example, Unleashed has him break Sonic out of his super form in the opening, Dark Brotherhood is him ultimately exploiting Sonic's absence to take over the world uncontested) when he has a different goal in mind than 'beat Sonic.' But doing so wins the war, not the *argument*, and his pride won't allow that.

[@Plsnocringececiliare]

Yea i agree with you. Both series have been runing for too long that powerscalling is just thow of the window. Both universes are cartoony ( one more then other) and the hero and vilans power level scale too what the plots demands. People shouldn't take death battles too seriosly after all it just for entreariment. Only the creators of those series could anser that question, and it could end up being biaes. No ofense of corse.

[@sans101]

I agree but dang What a yapper

[@voidgaming3175]

Okay, but, counterargument: the death battle fight was peak asf

[@Crussly1]

it was, animation was great and same for the fight, just dont agree with the outcome

[@voidgaming3175]

@Crussly1 makes sense makes sense

[@Neometal_Overlord]

Metal sonic carried

[@sans101]

I'm just glad my boy Bowser won

[@JimJom]

I’ve noticed that both people who debunked the episode didn’t know much about Mario power scaling. Like what-

[@insupportofjunhado]

Debunking doesn't necessarily have to contest the outcome, just point out that mistakes were made. This one does contest the outcome, but with the caveat that he doesn't actually know how to scale Mario and is just going off what screw attack said and what some Mario fans told him. I've personally got nothing wrong with his conclusion, only I'd argue the chaos heart void is numerically more impressive than the dream stone, even if the dream stone is better for instant erasure. That could be a debunk video, if I cared, that wouldn't argue with this guy's conclusion, just how he got there. Like a math teacher saying "show your work".

[@The-Almighty775]

That's what I'm saying, it's Sonic this, Sonic that, nobody mentions anything and I say nothing about Mario.

[@DrRachi1]

@@The-Almighty775 if correctly scaled eggman beats death battle's bowser then the video is debunked that's all it means

[@drebound-h1l]

@@The-Almighty775 true that

[@drebound-h1l]

everyone who made a debunk on mario so far has not really known much about the franchise both are powerful

[@ryangoldstrich7334]

I'd also like to point out that "Bowser has better hax" is honestly pretty debatable. The Phantom Ruby on its own can effectively counter basically any hax Bowser has, and Metal Sonic could simply pull the "Bio-Data Copied" card on literally any hax Bowser's army has, including Kamek's magic and all of the shit that he can do. Furthermore, Metal Sonic is implied to have immunity to the effects of any power he copies. Even if you believe that Kamek could nullify Metal's copy ability (which is a *very* shaky argument to make imo), there's still the Phantom Ruby and the fact that Eggman can just make more Phantom Ruby prototypes that are only slightly less powerful than the original. So like yeah. Pair that with the absurd scaling of Sonic characters (not to mention the fact that Eggman is just flatly smarter than Bowser in every relevant way) and Eggman really does have this fight in the bag.

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

I also want to mention that; even if Kamek can negate Metal's bio-data copying...he can just undo it with the Chaos Emeralds or Time Stones. Both can restore a person to a previous state, which is a great way to undo debuffs like what Kamek does. What's more, Metal can use Chaos abilities like Chaos Control without an Emerald. So even if he gets item usage sealed or the Emeralds taken (and for Pete's sake, just give Eggman's guys some Blockite; yes Forcejewels are finite but so is Kamek's HP), he might be able to un-debuff himself anyway. And Kamek can only really seal 1 ability per person at a time; so as long as Metal has more than 1 way to undo ability sealing, he's set.

[@kanemccarthy1979]

The Phantom Ruby can NOT negate Bowser's hax. It got retconned and massively nerfed. All it does is simulate warped reality. Bowser actually does it

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

@@kanemccarthy1979 It "simulates" warped reality but nobody can tell the difference unless the Ruby's user wants them too. Up to and including how that simulation kills them if they perceive it killing them. So what's the difference that isn't actually a benefit to the Ruby? Like, to use an example from the video; let's say Bowser warps reality to turn the Phantom Ruby-using Super Eggman into a Goomba. Nothing is really stopping that Goomba in that scenario from immediately using the Ruby to turn back into Super Eggman complete with Super Sonic scaling. And while that might just be a "simulation"/illusions, underneath which is still a Goomba; Eggman, Bowser, and the world itself all see and feel him moving at should-be-immeasurable speeds and throwing should-be-infinite-multiverse level punches, so that's kind of just what happens. It's the same for anything else you could really ask the Ruby to do. Metal gets his abilities sealed away? Ruby says he has them back. Sure that might be an illusion; but everyone sees and feels them working just fine and get legitimately hurt as a result. In effect: the Ruby's powers being simulations don't really hinder it's use in any real way.

[@kanemccarthy1979]

@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg not being able to tell is irrelevant. By being stated as a simulation that inherently puts it below actual reality warping. Arguing that it isn't is like claiming the hologram of a dragon is equivalent to a real one.

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

@@kanemccarthy1979 I mean if the hologram dragon's fire still incinerates you and it's claws can still slice into you; in what practical way is it not equivalent to a real one?

[@tiagon697]

While I find powerscaling discussions interesting, I feel like they often take certain things at face value or ignore an author's intent Or just other aspects of how battles are fought outside of raw numbers. Like galaxies in Mario galaxy aren't thousands of light-years in diameter, they're like city sized planetoids Or how the egg salamander isn't directly destroying two universes, it's essentially triggering a reaction You wouldn't say the person who detonated a bomb to have the same destructive power as said bomb, they just caused it to explode. Which is more just my disdain for these character what ifs to boil down to just raw numbers when those alone don't determine a victor, they're missing out on other aspects of it like character behavior, less measurable abilities, tactics, etc. Which is why I like the recent death battle because of how the two different approaches to their armies really determined the battle, Bowser tried to keep his army alive while eggman just (literally) threw his army at the problem. Which in turn left him with nothing to protect him at the end of the fight while a chunk of the koopa troop was able to fight.

[@mynameisntimportant1374]

@@tiagon697 1. We are literally only exploring the planetoids inside the galaxies not the galaxies themselves and official media treats galaxies as light years long and infinite in size 2. The egg salamander is using the power of the chaos and sol emeralds who were causing that reaction

[@thechargedfoxie456yt2]

@@tiagon697 I hate it that every argument here gives character items that no longer exist, or that the character has no way of obtaining said item anymore And then not only that, they completely overpower said item If Bowser could wish people out of reality with the dream stone, then why TF didn't he in the games? It would've benefited him greatly, so clearly it can't, and actual smart people can see that everything Bowser does using the dream stones power is actually wishing things IN to reality, which clearly means it can't erase shit

[@Doumdoum_06]

​@@thechargedfoxie456yt2you know why bowser just didn't delete the mario bros out of existence: pride, he won't feel good about winning like that, bowser respects mario and luigi. This argument doesn't take in fact that bowser isn't an absolute asshole.

[@chaoticcorn3083]

@@thechargedfoxie456yt2 True Bowserr dont erase shit he jus says it

[@thechargedfoxie456yt2]

@@chaoticcorn3083 he says hes gonna then gets stopped That doesn't mean he can though, otherwise he would've done it as dreamy Bowser All we see Bowser even do with the dream stone power is wish things into existence, so taking it at face value the dream stone has limits, but everyone unanimously decided it doesn't for some reason

[@Joshua12450]

People keep forgetting that every single trump card Eggman had, Bowser could at least match. Time eater gets wished away by the dreamstone. Chaos emeralds are matched in power by the Grand Stars, or Star Rod if you scale the emeralds as high as you possibly could. Eggman couldn't get up on trump cards, so it came to the rest of the stats, which Bowser had handily.

[@PauloH100]

Bowser wishes for the Time Eater to disappear from existence so that 1 second later he will appear again because he is already out of existence. He can even bring back things that have already been erased from existence, like the Future of 06 and Mephiles. And why do people underestimate the power of the Emeralds so much? They continue to be the most powerful things in the franchise. Which surpass things like Time Eater and even Solaris Emeralds have powers beyond infinity and have survived existential erasures more than once.

[@PineWierdo]

I don't get the whole "Bowser can wish things away" bit because he doesn't do it to Mario and Luigi, his biggest threats.

[@TrixyTrixter]

@@PineWierdo So far as I get it, its a statement vs feat situation. It is stated the dreamstone can do this, yet somehow he was unable to against mario and luigi and lost when he had it. Its like the inverse of how people talk about the Phantom Ruby, saying its just illusions when feats it has done shows that its literally reality warping.

[@hyperfairy7779]

@@PineWierdo he was going to do so, but got stopped by peach and starlow before he could do so, but once he became dreamy bowser, the rules changed, now wiith the dream stone's power within him, there was no chance of his power being stripped away from him, meaning he could have the satisfaction of properly beating mario and Luigi

[@PineWierdo]

@@hyperfairy7779 Yeah but unlike Eggman Bowser almost always goes for the kill, not monologuing or anything like that. It just seems out of character to me that Bowser wouldn't get rid of them immediately. Also with his Dreamstone power up he lost to Mario and Luigi, without power ups, the Time Eater needed 2 Super Sonics.

[@ssneakyandfriends1626]

just remember. bowser can time travel. because he feels like it. (one of the yoshi island titles)

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

Bowser’s literal mind can be a reality warping weapon too as Death Battle highlighted.

[@superdude899]

@@ssneakyandfriends1626 "Suddenly, warping through space and time, King Bowser appeared!" Love how Nintendo gave no explanation for this at all lol

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

I mean yeah, that is cool. But do remember that Eggman can do the same, and actually his time manipulation is probably better than Bowser's thanks to the Time Stones having complete control over time. For example: Eggman could use them like infinite-use Retry Clocks can can go back further than the start of the battle, reversing time enough to get as much prep time as he likes. And if Bowser's time travel proves to be serving him really well, Eggman just just turn time off if he feels like it with the Time Eater; shutting down everyone's time-based options until that's answered.

[@superdude899]

@@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg Bowser has been shown to move while time was stopped, as well as when it was being actively consumed and destroyed

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

@@superdude899 Oh I know. I still think Eggman's options are better when everything is looked at but that doesn't mean Bowser's options are sparse even in this field alone, nor do I think any of Eggman's time-based tools would win over Bowser on their own.

[@mynameisntimportant1374]

0:57 the dream stone didn’t just contain 100000 universes it contained every dream universe that ever was,is and will ever be and the Marioverse easily has infinite dream universes 1:13 dimentio getting stripped of his invincibility didn’t weaken him at all 1:27 not just the multiverse but the whole cosmology including every spatial dimension, concept, existence and so on 1:50 Here all the best feats I had more infinite speed feats but I preferred using the best ones Mario time travelling with pure movement Bowser warping space and time and travelling to the past and different timelines ( both yoshi island ds ) The rpg cast moving while culex eats space-time and exist across all of time at once ( mario rpg remake ) Mario surfing through time ( and reaching the real world ) ( mario Time Machine ) Mario moving in stopped time ( mario 64 ) Mario travelling to other dreams and universes ( mario party 5 ) The heroes crossing from the main dimension to the darkmess one and viceversa ( Mario + rabbids sparks of hope ) Bowser dodging bowser meteors which tagged starship Mario which can cross space-time and universal realms in the universe ( a Mario universe is build like a db macrocosm ) ( Mario galaxy 2 ) 3D world cast keeping up with green stars users and the green stars can cross the universe and 6 atleast space-time continuums in seconds ( mario galaxy 2 and 3D world ) Mario moving in matter splatter galaxy which is a different region of space-time ( Mario galaxy 1 ) Mario moving in the dreams that are aspatial and atemporal ( dreams in Mario can exist across the past,present and future ) Mario and the gang moving in bowser warped station which transcends space and time ( mario party 8 ) and that’s the mainline stuff Mario keeping up with the star spirits who can move in different dimensions ( paper Mario 64 ) Luigi moving in a region where both space and time got completely lost ( paper Mario the thousand year door ) Mario moving in the void which was going to erase all of existence, all timelines, all higher dimensions, pocket realms, space and time etc ( super paper Mario ) Mario moving in a erased world devoid of space and time ( super paper Mario ) Mario moving in cut out which transcends space,time and dimensions ( paper Mario color splash ) All these are immeasurable speed feats and they aren’t inconsistent at all 2:08 no you didn’t you scaled bowser to 2-B screwattack scaled him to 2-A 2:46 you act like mario characters don’t get stronger as well and most of the speed feats i said for bowser were from the classic Mario era 4:26 same speed tier only better agility 4:33 yeah sure ignoring how no one except eggman god tiers scales to sonic 4:44 we literally have no idea how he did it 5:13 obvious hyperbole 5:30 none of this statements prove how each eggman mech is better than the other 6:23 already debunked the dream stone downplaying including how Mario has it’s own maginary world aka the dream depot 6:41 neither this proves how the egg dragon is the strongest mech 7:46 ignoring how the context surrounding it that it destroyed just 1 timeline 8:01 and sonic stating himself he couldn’t beat him and needed shadow and silver help 8:36 eggman is clearly not talking about power here 9:26 already debunked that claim not mention bowser outhaxes heavily 12:52 you say that while admiting yourself you knew nothing about mario scaling at the beginning of the video 13:03 bowser literally has forms that became that and even defeated beings that where all similiar to eggman army 13:27 so we’re going to ignore dimentio was going to do the same on a much higher level ? 15:12 in conclusion bowsee ragdolls the whole eggman army by himself without even trying whenever it’s equal stats or not

[@Mails013]

All what you described have limits. The 7 Chaos Emeralds and thus Neo Metal Sonic and anything powered by the 7 Chaos Emeralds have no limits just like Superman. They have infinite speed, infinite strength and are immune to everything.

[@mynameisntimportant1374]

@ no limits fallacy and illiteracy aside bowser outscales and outhax allat

[@Mails013]

@@mynameisntimportant1374 that is established fact though. The moment Neo Metal Sonic became Super it should have been game over.

[@mynameisntimportant1374]

@@Mails013 ignoring how super Neo metal doesn’t even scale to the games even if he did he would have still one shotted by bowser or stomped by wonder bowser jr

[@nishnishbishb8918]

All that just for bowser to get speed blitz

[@pedrorosas2541]

People truly underestimate how busted Mario characters are. I like Sonic because he is a character that faces adversity, but for Mario? Saving Princess Peach is just a Tuesday for him

[@Crussly1]

sonic beats gods everyday

[@nhile8088]

⁠@@Crussly1He beat robot everyday not gods

[@pedrorosas2541]

@@Crussly1 so has Mario, on a Wednesday before breakfast

[@Crussly1]

@@pedrorosas2541 Sonic does it more frequently!

[@Jdudec367]

@@Crussly1 Are they more impressive though?

[@thedrunkgiraffe8312]

Minor correction but screwattack hasn't existed in like 6 years. And at least they gave immeasurable speed. And they DID include all mechs in the conclusion, fights have a budget dude. Felt like you underestimate bowser a bit, as you said equal stats bowser wins (imo stats don't matter here anyways) and they gave bowser immeasurable too. There's plenty of 5D 6D arguments for Mario, which they acknowledged boths higher scaling in the conclusion

[@DanDaMan1]

Not having Super Mecha Sonic is mad disrespectful. After all, If there are plenty of 5D-6D feats, Please share with us if you can.

[@nehen2225]

Solaris, who got powercrept, was already 6D and arguebly higher. Eggman still has the advantage here.

[@thedrunkgiraffe8312]

@nehen2225 How'd it get power crept?

[@inksinkanimates8921]

@@nehen2225 Solaris didn't even really get 'powercrept' he's a super dimensional time god, literally transcending every dimension 😭

[@nehen2225]

@@thedrunkgiraffe8312 Time Eater affects the same things Solaris does, but bigger since it can also affect non existant futures and retconned worlds, Solaris destroys everything past, present and future but doesn't affect non existant ones

[@rexturbo10]

Bowser army managed to conquer the known universe in a fornite, Eggman army took 6 months to conquer a single planet, enough said

[@ansrfururactions]

Mario armies are basically toddlers w/spears and the sonic verse has Sonic. Unless there is some army in the mario verse that can decimate sonic that bowser's beat, it's a disingenuous comparison.

[@rexturbo10]

@ansrfururactions you are one of those who thinks that if something does not look edgy and deadly it ain't dangerous right?

[@ansrfururactions]

@rexturbo10 you're missing my point. Toads are typically absurdly weak. You could probably beat the snot out of the average toad, and most, if not all, armies are similar in nature to the toads army. Bowser's army is literally the only one in the mario verse that I could think of that is even remotely competent. It's like saying the medium priced lawnmower is better than the luxury one because the luxury mower cut less, even though the expensive one got jammed by a certain blue rock while the med priced one never had a jam occur.

[@rexturbo10]

@@ansrfururactions Eggman took six months to conquer a planet, with Infinite using the Phantom Ruby AFTER he beat and imprisoned Sonic, the fact he couldn't conquer a planet after beating the strongest champion speaks volumes of how incompetent Eggman's army is compared to the Koopa Army, keep in mind they can use the same power-ups as Mario and Luigi, and cartoonish or not, conquering the observable universe is not an easy feat, tell me of any army in any sci-fi setting that came as close as Bowser army did in conquering their universe as in all the planets and solar systems.

[@BeatboxingLeprechaun]

​@@rexturbo10 In my opinion, that's not really a good argument Saying Bowser conquered the Universe doesn't really show how strong Bowser himself is, it more shows how weak Mario is that he let this happen Sonic's friends were powerful enough to overcome the Planet being taken over What Bowser and Eggman conquer just comes down to how strong the main characters are, which Mario vs Sonic is a whole ass debate itself Also, I think people forget that Eggman just wants a Theme Park, that's what he's doing all this crazy stuff for Eggman threatens to cause destruction to the Universe for a Theme Park (Yes, he does all of this for a freaking theme park) In summary, Eggman has no desire to conquer the Universe or anything like that I'm not saying this is proof of why Eggman wins, I'm just saying that conquering something doesn't really count as a feat for either side

[@leviboypopop]

Immediately off-put by you calling Death Battle “Screwattack” in the first two seconds.

[@aidanmccarron6767]

no in 1 seconds ( and hi levit?)?

[@gr8gmr]

You know what he meant.

[@aidanmccarron6767]

@@gr8gmr 0:01

[@gr8gmr]

@@aidanmccarron6767 I'm talking about the creator of this video.

[@RedX03]

Speed is a huge factor don’t get me wrong but you can’t just say speed to everything bowser has. Bowsers hax are called hax for a reason it’s something that just screws you over no matter what you have or do. What’s stopping bowser from just wishing the speed eggman has to near zero with the dream stone and star rod. Characters like kamek have teleportation, which arguably makes them faster. Also magic, yes I know it’s a broad term but one advantage to bowser being from the goofy Mario franchise is that magic kinda trumps really anything. Eggmans only saving grace is time eater, infinite, and neo metal. King boo kills infinite low diff (they show a poor example of how but still) Neo metal vs a grand/power star bowser is definitely a quality vs quantity situation however it’s implied that a single grand star can grant bowser insane power already and his while shtick in some games is stealing all of them. Sadly a single emerald barely lets you teleport. Time eater also just kinda gets trumped by bowsers own bs time manipulation I’d explain more but this could get too long, but feel free to ask for something specific if you want.

[@Yes-qj1kf]

You think king boo beats infinite? Someone that scales higher than sonic post generation. Who has beaten Solaris time eater arasa gin. Infinite is not losing to king boo. Also had can be completely negated if you can put the person down before they are able to use it. Unless they have the same speed or there hax is an automatic thing.

[@RedX03]

@ one word my friend, undead. King boo isn’t mortal ,his life enteral as a spirit. Explain to me how infinite kills a ghost. Not to mention even if he could somehow I just want to mention that infinites “scaling” to being as stronger than beings like Solaris just because sonic beat him is misconstrued. First we’re talking super sonic we have no idea what infinite can do against that considering you don’t go super canonically in forces. Second sonic has help from shadow, and silver for Solaris. Sonic had his past self for time eater. Story book games, I actually haven’t played and I barely know those so feel free to tell me what crazy stuff that villain can do. My point is the scaling is flawed and infinites brashness does not pair well against king boos psychotic nature. Bro waited to pack up Luigi in the opening segment of Luigi’s mansion 3. Eggman literally has to tell infinite he was being stupid not killing sonic when he could have

[@Yes-qj1kf]

​@@RedX03 Infinite was able to stuff into a reality as seen from the sun there isnt much stopping infinite from just trapping him somewhere or just wanting him gone. And no it isnt a "misconstruct". For one infinite is out right stated to be the strongest sonic villian in forces so that infinite would beat solaris. Also in the story book "sonic and the secret rings" the main villian was absorbing infinite universes within himself also in that game he could grant wishes but im pretty sure he had to be freed. Second Sonic having help from his younger self doesnt change much since its himself. Also almost every fictional character would have flawed scaling.

[@RedX03]

@ ok valid, king boo being trapped in like null space or something is much more believable. Looking back considering that phantom ruby, BY ITSELF undid classic sonics super form in mania definitely does scale the ruby itself to be almost equal to the chaos emeralds. I doubt king boos random gem comes close to all 7 emeralds

[@sans101]

​@Yes-qj1kf yes

[@phantomrogue7894]

I agree with you and I hate how anyone who disagrees with Death Battle is called a fanboy and their opinion is treated like the word of God. I saw the argument that Bowser can erase the Time Eater, but I doubt that. Mephiles was erased by time yet the Time Eater could still bring him back in a way.

[@davidgarcia5988]

The Dream Stone can erase whatever Bowser thinks of away. If you don't buy that then Bowser can use the Wonder Flower to turn the Time Eater into something harmless or even fuse with it

[@mcpics4448]

They actually didn’t debunked or downplay time eater the black box gave context to how bowser could theoretically get around that too

[@davidgarcia5988]

@@mcpics4448 It was also shown in the alternative scenarios how Dreamy Bowser can erase Time Eater

[@phantomrogue7894]

​@@davidgarcia5988 Existence erasure negation. Phantom Ruby counters it. It's more than just illusions. Eggman's army also has the speed advantage. No idea how Super Neo Metal Sonic would scale but he could straight up copy bowser. I see the he never copied magic argument but he can copy reality warping abilities so personally I don't see why not but maybe that's just my interpretation. I feel like Eggman was downplayed to hype up bowser but it was still a goated animation regardless. Accurate? Not in my opinion but I still enjoyed it.

[@davidgarcia5988]

@@phantomrogue7894 Has the Phantom Ruby ever shown to be able to resist existence erasure?

[@rhyperiorhunter7339]

Ok to adress the whole "the phantom ruby can make infinite clones of eggman's best soldier" argument, I think people tend to forget the ending of sonic forces where infinite did that very thing and the clones he did create were basically just disposable cannon fodder the heroes mow down in droves, like one Zavok clone gave sonic a boss fight, hundreds were a standard enemy for the other named characters, implying at least that the more numerous the phantom ruby clones, the lower the quality of each individual clone

[@thestickmansavioryt1941]

That's literally just gameplay interpretation Infinite can spawn infinite clones of anyone and anything with no limitations IDW even confirms The Phantom Ruby > The Mastered Emerald

[@rhyperiorhunter7339]

@thestickmansavioryt1941 the whole hundreds of clones being pathetic isn't in the gameplay it's in a cutscene before the final stage, so no leudo narrative dissonance cannot be used as an excuse, the game clearly shows (or a least implies through said cutscene) that the more numerous the clones are the weaker each individual clone is (aided by the fact that it's clear in the narrative that the individual Zavok and Metal Sonic clones put up more of a fight)

[@acejumper1681]

The fight was peak though, despite my boy eggman losing.

[@Leondowski113]

I honestly think Bowser wins… but it actually depends

[@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday]

Well they did take away the Phatom Ruby which can fuck with them Plus Eggmans much stronger mechs or Super Eggman

[@davidgarcia5988]

​​@@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday King Boo would handle the Phantom Ruby and any of its illusions since he can do the same and possibly more than that Ruby for shits and giggles. Some of Bowser's forms like Dreamy or Wonder could destroy some of Eggman's top mechs and Super Eggman. The Dream Stone can just wish whatever Bowser thinks of away and the Wonder Flower can allow Bowser to alter anything into anything

[@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday]

​@@davidgarcia5988 Bruh the Phantom Ruby summoned a literal sun It's not just illusions and tricks

[@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday]

​@@davidgarcia5988 And unfortunately I don't think Dreamy Bowser can destroy all of them Eggman literally threatened time Time Eater can even bring erased timeliness back Can Dreamy Bowser even do that Time Eater is powerful as hell

[@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday]

​@@davidgarcia5988 and honestly I don't think King Boo can do as much as the Phantom Ruby can Especially since the Ruby is attached too Infinite and the jewel on top of his head could be knocked off his head like a top hat

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

As a Mario fan, I find this crazy that Sonic fans actually scale like that. How can they actually believe that Infinite, a base Sonic victim, is stronger than Solaris or Time Eater? The worst part is that Sonic getting exponentially stronger is totally false as Sonic was relatively equal to his past self in Sonic Generations once in Super form. If any of that were true, classic Sonic would be quadrillons of times weaker than an enemy from Sonic 06. I also love how they cling to manuals to buff or hype feats and characters but conveniently ignores them when they mention things that make them fodder like Sonic being a "Hypersonic Hedgehog" in Sonic Adventure’s manual. They will also claim a statement is 100% true when Sonic claims to get faster by the second in Sonic Forces but totally ignore them when Sonic literally admits to being too slow to save Tails in time during Sonic Lost World. Bowser has higher ends scaling that would still compete with most of the things Sonic fans say when they wank too. Just watch the Dimentio analysis of the 40 minutes long Dimentio vs Bill Cipher video for example.

[@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy.]

1. Your opinion doesnt matter to what we're shown. So your opinion that infinite should be weaker than solaris is moot. 2. No. Prove classic sonic was relative to modern sonic. Just because they both scales to time eater doesnt mean classic sonic would scale to modern sonic. Thats like saying because the rock can beat me in a fight and goku can beat me in a fight, the rock scales to goku.

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

@@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy. 1. It’s not just my opinion. The only thing hinting at Infinite supposedly being better than Solaris is an hyperbolic statement from a manual. In reality, Infinite is a base Sonic victim and was even defeated by the OC which clearly isn’t Solaris level. If your statement is even true, why wouldn’t the statement saying that Sonic is only hypersonic in Sonic Adventures be true instead of him having infinite speed? Shouldn’t your opinion not matter compared to an official statement? 2. Yeah. Right. So Classic Super Sonic doesn’t scale at all to Modern Super Sonic but scales to the Time Eater? That means Time Eater is quadrillions of times weaker than a random enemy from Sonic 06 considering the goofy powercreeping Sonic fans try to make into a reality.

[@Welcometoyourlocalchannel]

@@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569 or....Classic Super Sonic and Super Sonic had enough power combined to beat the time eater. Also, Sonic was able to beat perfect chaos in his base form in sonic generations which, if we go with your opinion, means classic sonic should do the same thing? Yet he can't because he's weaker then dreamcast super. The chaos emeralds might also be providing classic sonic with enough power to be relevant in the fight. Also when they say that infinite is stronger they could just be talking about the prototype phantom ruby. Considering the fact that Infinite was stupid and eggman just used it as a battery meaning we never got to see its potential in the hands of someone creative or smart otherwise no one is surviving forces.

[@insupportofjunhado]

Power scaling isn't about good writing and whether what a character does and to what degree they do it actually makes sense or was explained well in a story, was shown well in a story. It is just about what characters or things can do. Usually power scalers have an asterisk, a disclaimer, explaining it is POSSIBLE to interpret this as a lot stronger or weaker, but in this scaler's opinion blah blah, or for the purposes for this discussion blah blah. Like, the Marios who die from a ten foot drop and the Marios who take no fall damage whatsoever and can rocket through space at faster than light speeds to a sudden stop without issue are both valid. Is that good writing? That depends on your opinions on Mario's very loose to flat out negative continuity. Mario games are consistent within standalone entries at best, MAYBE to a direct sequel. Sonic tries to have more of a narrative, and may have fallen into more narrative traps and plot holes because of it. No, actually Sonic has continuity errors out that could have easily been correct before Sonic 3 even released, if you want to take it as a serious connected narrative(30 chaos emeralds in spin ball, no wait, there's still only 7!), but power scaling isn't about judging writing, or game design, or anything else of that nature, just what characters and things can do. Sometimes bad or apathetic writing makes what can be done vague and there needs to be an asterisk or disclaimer.

[@gabrielaraujodealmeida5506]

Then by that logic Mario would be piranha plant level or lava, deaths battle is supposed to take characters at their strongest, just because sonic dint save tails doesn't nulify what he did in generations

[@fabiomgm1293]

Their McGuffins were pretty much tied. Their reasoning to give Bowser the win was solid.

[@Dr.Boundless]

Couldn't agree more. This Death Battle was pretty fun in all honesty.

[@solaris3251]

@@Dr.Boundless The animation an edit was fire ngl, but the result was not accurated at all.

[@solaris3251]

@@fabiomgm1293 I thought you should give the win to the most powerful character...

[@TheRedRabbit08]

Not really, Eggman brings in the titans from sonic frontiers and it's over

[@OverlyEpux]

Nah. Bowser lacks the scaling to actually keep up. Infinite alone scales above the mario verse to an absurd degree - being stated as stronger than solaris who had to be fought in the past present & future all at once. Neo Metal being shown to scale to modern super sonic would put him even further beyond that. Bowser has hax galore but he wouldn't actually get the chance to use them due to the speed difference getting him blitzed

[@bismuth7398]

Videos like this just reinforce my belief that Sonic has one of the most wanked/glazed universes in the history of fiction.

[@Crussly1]

dragon ball?

[@bismuth7398]

@Crussly1 Yeah, Dragon Ball is pretty bad, too. So is Bleach.

[@Crussly1]

@@bismuth7398 dont get me started on opm though.

[@bismuth7398]

@@Crussly1 Yeah... it really says something when Sonic is gassed up to the same level as Shōnen anime.

[@Crussly1]

@@bismuth7398 tbf i wouldnt say as much but its up there

[@peteypiranalover]

Dreamy Bowser Grand Star Bowser Star Rod Bowser Fury Bowser Wonder Bowser Are probably his strongest upgrades

[@randomperson-real]

fury bowser isnt something bowser would ever use, theres a reason why its called "fury" he was literally attacking his son he cant control his fury form

[@peteypiranalover]

@randomperson-real agreed, but I was figure maybe Bowser Jr. Learned control it after the events of the game. Dreamy Bowser would have been better

[@gaztalesans2751]

Okay, so if we give both their full arsenal Eggman still wipes via higher cosmology, Dream Bowser's reality manipulation scales as far as the Mario verse's scaling goes (sonic's is much higher) therefore the hax would be cancelled out by default (Eggman with Phantom Ruby aka Lightman Eggman is also comparable/matches to Super Sonic so there is no way Bowser is winning)

[@peteypiranalover]

@gaztalesans2751 do we have stats scaling for whose universe is bigger, where are you getting your information? Do we know Lightman evenly scales with Super Sonic, I haven't seen that arc. Bowser's reality manipulation works fine enough to counter it like they said that i can see. Grand Star +Fury upgrades feels like a passable way to keep up with a Super Form. I am not saying your wrong, just can you source your information

[@gaztalesans2751]

@peteypiranalover Well, Lightman comes from an official sonic channel, they also wrote a story behind it qhich stated Lightman = Super Sonic, Sonic's scaling can also be bumped up to Outversal if I'm not mistaken, maybe just Hyperversal, Mario Verse only goes so far as Multiversal+, due to high cosmology Lightman obliterates Bowser

[@lefeeshchopped8286]

Thing is, Paper Mario is a separate continuity. So those feats don't apply to normal Bowser.

[@Maxjb1242]

It was confirmed as canon and even if it wasn’t, their crossover with the Mario and Luigi series make them scale to each other

[@PK_Miracle]

​@@Maxjb1242tbh Paper Mario being canon just sealed Eggmans fate

[@Maxjb1242]

@@PK_Miracle in the death battle? Yea😢

[@notarobber5387]

​@@PK_MiracleNot really they both have multiversal scaling with the top tiers in Eggmans army being able to resist Bowser reality manipulation. Even in the death battle they didn't mention paper Mario feats as Bowsers win cons.

[@vaderkurt7848]

@@PK_Miracle No it wouldn't. If everything is canon then you have to give sonic the same thing. Remember mario kun (also has paper mrio feats) needed amps to deal be on par with just a basic base form sonic kun whose japanese material confirms to be game sonic and know the scaling from there and how Eggman builds more things to counter sonic and this isn't even a contest. Also not including how Shin megami Sonic is a fraction of the original sonic. Bowser would get clapped according to scaling. Everything being canon would extremely backfire against bowser not necessarily support him.

[@ImJustCJ644]

Saying this fight isn’t close is crazy

[@Grim0XVr]

Fanboy. I can tell just by this wording. Wouldn’t say that if bowser lost huh?

[@hypertension1011]

The fact is that it is not even close as eggman got nerf so hard to the point of losing 100% no matter what so think again before you comment.

[@HomelessBear-Cyn]

@@hypertension1011 not to mention they put characters in certain situations where they would lose when even in said situation they just wouldn't. the main examples being infinite and sages death. if infinite is as strong, durable, and fast as the games show he is then a thwomp wouldn't hurt him nor would he be unable to dodge it. and for sage rift says that she can be in hyperspace and still control/pilot eggmans army. so she would've just went somewhere else or not even moved from eggmans side to fire the death egg again.

[@hypertension1011]

@@HomelessBear-Cyn this battle is just a huge shit show with cool animation. There team made bowser biased so noticable I will rather no look at.

[@Yamatonix11]

@@HomelessBear-Cyn Infinite got hit by a gravity-accelerated Thwomp that he didn't see coming, and if we're going by game-mechanics, Thwomps are still instant-kill if you get squished by one. Sage didn't die? she survived past the ending, I would assume she just got forced out of the Death Egg after it was transformed into a ? block. They weren't in unfavorable situations, Bowser and his army just had hard counters for all of their BS right up to Metal Sonic going NEO.

[@Hyperchaoticcybernightmare.]

Short version=modern eggman robots can unironically solo dragon Ball z multiple times over

[@guyiguess438]

4:43 he must’ve done it pretty casually too since he didn’t even gloat about how he escaped

[@edwardcross459]

Frankly you can make any argument you really want, if you give Bowser the Dream Stone he wins every time. With the Dream Stone, Bowser basically becomes a sparkly version of Alien X from Ben 10, and can literally just wish anything out of existence. Doesn’t matter how many Robots, Emeralds, or Machines you throw in front of it, it can erase all of them. So, unless you nerf Bowser heavy time by removing it from his arsenal he wins every time.

[@FoneyBone1]

I haven't played Dream Team, but Mario and Luigi (or maybe it's Dreamy Luigi idk) still defeat Dreamy Bowser, right? It seems a bit disingenuous to say Dreamy Bowser cannot be defeated no matter how Eggman is scaled when realistically, as long as he's at least comparable to the characters that defeated him, Eggman should be able to too.

[@avocadoiscool3717]

people dont understand wishing for things is just reality manipulation. eggman also has reality manipulation so it just wouldnt work

[@solaris3251]

@@edwardcross459 No limits fallacy. Even with all that power he still lost to Mario and Luigi, so no, he cannot just wish anything away from existence. And even if he tried it wouldn't matter, Sonic survived Solaris' death stare, that is capable of erasing things from existence. Metal wouldn't be erased.

[@haha_yes3233]

​​@@FoneyBone1You dont get how strong mario and luigi are together lol. They are busted in the bros games.

[@FoneyBone1]

I don't doubt it, but the point still stands that if someone else scales to the same level and or higher, then they could reasonably defeat Dreamy Bowser too. I don't know enough about Mario to say whether Eggman scales to that level, but the original statement that "it doesn't matter" how high he scales is just...wrong.

[@LordSiravant]

Nah, Death Battle had it right, whether you like it or not. Eggman's an inferior leader, Bowser's virtually unkillable, and Eggman's tech has virtually no defense against transmutation magic. Not to mention that Mario's universe pretty much runs on Toon Force, so that alone puts the comparatively-realistic Sonic universe at a significant disadvantage. Not to mention Bowser had a counter to all of Eggman's best trump cards. Even the Sonic franchise itself has shown that Eggman/Robotnik tends to struggle against magic. (Ixis Naugus, anyone?)

[@Moongads]

1 - Inferior leader or not, he leads a group of mostly unconscious robots that lack free will, so it's mostly irrelevant 2 - His tech has no defense against transmutation magic, good thing he can manipulate reality using the phantom ruby (which doesn't just cast illusions, deathbattle completely misrepresented it seeing as it's able to create portals in mania, and if it only casted illusions then classic just wouldn't be in forces) or via nightmare eggman, et cetera 4 - "Toon force" is vague, you gotta show and state how exactly they use toon force, where and when, and how it applies to the fight. 5 - Counter how? Be specific 6 - Eggman can and has used magical artifacts himself so this is mostly redundant (Ixis naugus is from the archie comics? weird attempt at an anti-feat but ok) I can literally think of counterpoints off the top of my head man 😭I hate how BOTH sides of the argument think they know exactly what the outcome is even though they really don't. It's a debate for a reason, I think eggman wins, but I'm not gonna sit here and say "nah deathbattle had it wrong, whether you like it or not"

[@The_Tamar]

@@Moongads i think eggman wins just because i like eggman....

[@metaltrashbucket]

Yeah he's an inferior leader but that doesn't really matter when you have a loyal dog that scales to infinite speed and probably infinite power

[@Moongads]

@@The_Tamar Not helpful.. but I guess you're entitled to your own opinion

[@metaltrashbucket]

@@Moongads it's entirely helpful

[@Chaotix1993]

We couldve had another “THE SUN IS FALLING THROUGH THE SKY OF THE EARTH” moment if he lasted longer

[@Chaotix1993]

Another thing eggman is an asshole but his robots dont care plus hes only nice to infinite sage and metal cuz he cares for those three because they’re his greatest creations

[@Chaotix1993]

Well sage and metal noe

[@Wahknight-ew5ml]

I'm an Eggman fan, and even I knew Bowser was most likely to win. I still would have preferred if they did a rematch for Eggman Vs. Wily first.

[@Magma-Idiot-2001]

My older brother was talking to me about the fight before it's debut, and he outright said that several Sonic fans online said the same thing. Wild world we live in, it feels like the Sonic fans tht are trying to debunk this stuff are the radical/hardcore ones for the Sonic Franchise. People should focus on what's could be more important now: Bowser vs. Sonic, without power-ups and emeralds/stars.

[@thejellygamer6525]

Honestly thought eggman would win when they included Archie feats , I was rooting for bowser but still

[@Magma-Idiot-2001]

@thejellygamer6525 Archie was excluded, they included the IDW comics due to them being canon to the games.

[@thejellygamer6525]

@@Magma-Idiot-2001 Ah that explains it i always thought that the metal virus was an archie thing

[@dentren48]

I think egg man wins the stuff bro creates is crazy and he has sage I only see wily wining is with ra moon but then again egg man’s mech are more powerful

[@zainahmed4172]

You forgot that bowsers is a reality warper. Massive speed gap won’t be a problem if he can just crank out crazy magic. But what death battle did mess up is the experience it time and space manipulation. Eggman seen it with reality warping and time eater. Bowser do have time and space manipulation in magic but when it comes to experience, Eggman has it. But the biggest factor is the army. Sage does not have access to provide Eggman a perfect win because she does not have the date regarding bowsers forces. You also forgot that bowser is just as broken, and smg2, bowser conquered not one universe but multiples of them.

[@HypercomboProduction]

Bowser manipulated time to aid his baby self in a fight against Yoshi. It was never explained how he did that.

[@zainahmed4172]

@ True, I agree but that’s nowhere near Eggmans level of expertise. Eggman have massive experience, scaling and power advantage in time manipulation thanks to Sonic CD, Sonic 06, Sonic Generations and Sonic Mania.

[@HypercomboProduction]

@@zainahmed4172 so is that why the Eggdragoon loses to Classic Sonic in Forces?

[@zainahmed4172]

@ he got stronger after generations. Also in mania he learned new skill: drop dash which basically improved version of spin dash

[@chaoticcorn3083]

@@zainahmed4172 bro won't even be able to react before his entire army gets blitzed

[@rodon265]

So, everyone in the multiverse is multiversal in power... Thanks I hate it.

[@TrixyTrixter]

The problem with having to one up yourself each time. Becomes really dumb after a while and makes characters that are canonically stronger than previous ones seem weaker because the game literally cannot work if they go last games end boss levels of stuff right away.

[@whippilicious8117]

I believe that the reason Bowser won was because being able to change a universe is a lot more powerful than destroying a universe. Changing a universe allows you to change whatever you would possibly want to change, whether that be the smallest spec to the biggest of stars. This would make things like Infinite and Solaris seem insignificant due to the fact that they could just be changed into rabbits or flowers.

[@Luluthebluemoon]

problem is bowser isnt smart enough to do that... you all keep forgetting he is a dumbass!!! and is only a threat when controlled by someone else. even when he had all that power... mario and luigi in BASE FORMS defeated him by simply smacking him with a hammer... this means AMY ROSE could defeat Dreamy Bowser! then there is the fact the chaos emeralds have chaos control warp which could simply teleport bowser from the dream stone inside him or any other item power up. any human who goes into the mario universe instantly gains all these feats... MARIO is literally a human from earth who was a plumber that entered into a cartoon universe.

[@ketchupheinze7475]

​​@@Luluthebluemoon"Mario and Luigi defeated him with hammer" Thats only proves how strong they are. Human would survive a ftl speed from launch stars? No, human would survive being right in core of star? No. Dont bring movie here, since its not canon to games, or you really thinks that Super Star stronger than thing that allowed Bowser conquer the universe? "Chaos control warp" So? Bowser can himself travel through Space and time lol And again, dont bring movie here.

[@Dyoni1]

Don’t buy every brag being a measurement, by that standard Bowser would have a 4 digit IQ, and the number of times Eggman brags about being unbeatable only to then be beaten shows to not take everything they say literally.

[@TrixyTrixter]

Brags can be concidered as long as nothing goes against what they are saying. Bowsers 4 digit IQ is most definitely a joke, even tho bowser is not an idiot, hes nowhere near that. Eggman tho, has so far never (So far as I know) over or down played his machines capabilities to an egregious degree, he knows what they are supposed to be able to do and will gladly gloat about that before making something even better at a later time.

[@Dyoni1]

@ except nothing actually does that, there no system of measurement in place to begin with that actually quantifies the claim. It’s basically the DBZ power level argument with nail synched Piccolo suddenly putting the beatdown on Frieza. Like literally you’re comparing infinity with infinity saying “well this infinity has more infinity!!!” It’s infinity either way. Like really, I have three bags of holding with infinite space in each, I give you one, who has more space? No one, I just have two different holes into infinity, you don’t run out of space in your bag just because I have two bags with infinite space instead of one. It’s infinite.

[@genesismultiverse4896]

The thing I'm confused on is why infinite the guy who is known for illusions didn't make an illusion of himself then to reveal the whole fight was an illusion from the start and eggman using one of the device that was shown in his explanation section

[@metaldragmire8539]

I’m seeing all the comments and the arguments and I’m just like astounded by some people who claim that Eggman is more durable then Bowser. Like I get what you’re trying to say, but without his tech Eggman is just a regular guy. If you put Bowser and Eggman in a fist fight 1v1 then Bowser would easily destroy Eggman within seconds.

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

This is what the average Sonic fan does. I have seen one trying to claim Elise from Sonic 06 has immeasurable speed and infinite strength because she could survive while "Solaris erased the concepts of space and time" 💀 That bitch is canonically too weak to survive a ship exploding on her. 🤣

[@marcopeter7581]

Didnt eggman outrun sonic with just his legs in sonic 3 ?

[@jack7096]

@@marcopeter7581sonic let him get ahead

[@marcopeter7581]

@@jack7096 fair enough. Though metal and sage if they had all their feats would have probaly carried

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

What, like no abilities, no items, final destination? Yeah Bowser should probably win that one. Although I will say, if we're allowing super forms into this 1v1 fist fight; then Super Eggman probably _does_ have that kind of insane durability, even if his hax get negated by something like the Pure Hearts. Super Eggman did still fist fight Super Sonic hax-less after all. Would it match the insane attack potency of the Pure Hearts-amped Bowser?...Hmm...it might be close, since Super Sonic scaling is pretty close to Super Paper Mario scaling. I could see giving that to Bowser still, due to the otherwise insignificant advantage of base Bowser over tech-less Eggman shining though these insane amps; but I wouldn't fault anyone who thought Super Eggman takes the fist fight in this hypothetical.

[@notarobber5387]

Most of Bowsers reality warping wont work on Super Metal, Time eater, and Lightman. Time eater and Solaris erase all of reality which would include Maginary world an infinite sized 4 spatial dimension space made up of dreams. Cyberspace an acausal infinite space that contains the ancients souls, thoughts, memories, dreams, and data. The Arabian Nights which is a world made of text. When text is altered or destroyed so are the worlds. Solaris and Time eater erase this which would require them to have existence erasure that effects souls, space-time, concepts like dreams, and plot. Time eater erases reality and base metal sonic is shown unaffected in white space. As well as the chaos emeralds being unaffected and able to repel the Time Eater. Super Sonic can also resist the eyes of Solaris which induce death. Solaris was also powered up by the chaos emeralds when he destroyed reality. Super sonic can then launch conceptual attacks at Solaris while Solaris does the same. Time eater also fights super Sonic and both can withstand each others attacks which would be able to affect abstract concepts. Time eater exists outside of reality. The dream stone which is made of dreams has never shown the ability to erase anyone who can withstand Time eater's or Solaris' level of existence erasure. Let alone Mario and Luigi that Bowser said he was gonna do but didn't show it. Transmutation wouldn't work either as the chaos emeralds and master emerald can remove adverse affects like transmutation through the metal virus. Infinite with a worse phantom ruby completely resists the cube wispon that turns enemies into cubes. Lightman would have a superior phantom ruby and would be able to resist the transmutation as well. Within the egg field Lightman has subjective reality and can bring his thoughts into reality as shown when he turns multiple buildings into copies of perfect Choas. Even after his invincibility was removed by Sonic's positive aura from the chaos emeralds. He is still able to trade blows with super Sonic. Nightmare Eggman can also manipulate dreams. Nothing Bowser has can take out Super metal, Time eater, or Lightman and his egg fields if he gets caught inside. Bowsers best bet would be buffing through power ups and clones and overwhelming Eggman with painting sealing and clones to try and brute force him or get a painting seal off on Eggman Edit: Thanks superdude for derailing the entire conversation about the debate. Thanks chaoticcorn for feeding a bs argument

[@nehen2225]

And that is without keeping stats in consideration. I will give Bowser the strenght stat regardless of what anyone wants to say, not ideal but just to make the example. Eggman and his robots have to keep up with Sonic and friends. Meanwhile Bowser and his minions can't keep up with Mario who can pretty much run circles around them, and Sonic is leagues faster than Mario. Eggman, even if not comparable to Sonic with any of his mechs, still has to keep up with him AND has tagged Sonic before. Even if we conclude that Bowser has more brute strenght, Eggman's robots are just way faster than him and his army so the probability of Bowser actually pulling off his hax is not very realistic when he has to catch an opponent way faster and smarter than him.

[@beamkirby1158]

(I'm a fan of both series but, I feel like people hold the Sonic universe a little too high because if we talked about everything in Canon, Eggman literally stands no chance against Bowser no matter how it sliced. And I know the ins and outs of both characters very well.) I feel like no one takes the RPGs and the spinoffs into account and those are actually Canon as well (that has not been proven otherwise yet), so Bowser has just as many tricks up his sleeve to deal with eggman's most powerful robots like Time eater or super neo metal, and another thing that I feel like people seem to miss understand is that power Stars (including the green stars and the red star), Grand Stars, shine sprites & power moons have some extreme capabilities to, in fact just one grand star was able to set up a chain reaction that nearly destroyed Mario's universe, and the second time it happened is when Bowser just ate it in Galaxy 2, in power Stars as well as shine sprites and power moons are not that much weaker, meaning all of those scale significantly better than the chaos emerald, especially if you just take into account the number of all of those things combined which overwhelms the odds for the chaos emeralds as there's only seven of them compared to literal thousands of those power sources in the Mario universe. And this is not even counting stuff like the Star rod (Mario legit would have lost a Bowser if it wasn't for peaches interference as Bowser was literally invincible & not even the star spirits at that final battle could have remove movement without a bit of help from peach.) the crystal stars (though Bowser has not been seen using those yet), the Wonder flower, & the pure hearts which have even more extreme potential (and I can confidently say that the pure hearts alone can easily outscale the chaos emeralds is I think super Dimentio is significantly stronger than Solaris or the end). Then there's things like the dreamstone, which can which things out of existence, meaning that time eater and super neo metal Sonic would easily be cleaned up by dreamy Bowser (Bowser ate all of the stones fragments so I highly doubt it was even fully destroyed when dreamy Bowser was defeated in dream team.) and another thing I feel like a lot of people tend to forget is Bowser is very good with dark magic to stupid extents which ARE canon, ensure machines like the death egg robot and the egg dragon are powerful machines but they don't do the same level of power as a punching super peaches castle out of orbit & around the planet. Plus let's be real Bowser outright has conquered the universe and Eggman hasn't even came close to doing that. Plus in terms of armies Bowser has a much better army overall as they all literally can cover each other in ways that the Eggman empire just can't. So what if infinite can create powerful illusions and be a deadly foe Bowser's troupe when King boo can outright do the same thing to a much more extreme extent such as affecting entire dimensions, not a planet, dimensions in infinite can't do anything to King boo either ask King boo just outright hard counters him in every way possible. Kamek is another problem, that old magic koopa literally has next to no limits in terms of what his magic can do, meaning that even near metal Sonic won't be able to copy anything from the koopa troop because kamek can cancel it, and the troop doesn't really rely on technology so, sage is already super limited in that regard. And I haven't even gotten to fury Bowser or dry Bowser, were fury Bowser is just obscenely powerful as it is, dry Bowser is even more ridiculous due to Bowser literally having the magic to reanimate his own skeleton, and Bowser has really good transmutation magic, well maybe Bowser without any power source may not be able to stop reality warping from super neo metal, but you give him something like a power star or a grand star and he easily can match that. And again can warp reality at base form, so the fact that he has access to majority of his power at all times makes a really big difference. There is literally nothing Eggman can actively plan against when it comes to Bowser because, Bowser literally has a much wider army, and the fact that Bowser and his troup are team players, this literally creates a situation where Eggman can't do much against him, because sure eggman's machines can survive getting thrown into a black hole but Bowser has a hole can survive that to a much more extreme extent. Bowser even survived getting thrown into a star going supernova. And saying that all of eggman's robots can outspeed Bowser is an overstatement, Bowser's not slow at all pretty quick opponents in the past and won, and yes Bowser basically counters any of eggman's instant wins because his transmutation magic (and before someone tries to ask me why doesn't he use this stuff against Mario, it's because it doesn't work because they are both similar in strength in every way shape and form. They are both star children so there's a high chance that Mario just outright is immune to a good portion of his magic, like transmutation.) sure Eggman helped Sonic destroy the end, but Bowser also helps Mario and Luigi destroy the Dark star and a super Dimentio. Hell, Bowser fought himself and kicked his ass.) and don't get me wrong Eggman is no pushover by any means, but lets be real there isn't really much he can do against Bowser especially if you just decides to casually turn his robot into stone like he did to the toads in the original super Mario Bros. What is Eggman going to do then? (I don't say this now I've done my research heavily on both characters as I played every most of the games they appeared in and if I didn't play the some of those games I watched one of my friends do it. Eggman has a lot of potential, but no matter how it's sliced Eggman cannot stand up to the Koopa king, there's too much Bowser has going for him. Eggman may beat him in terms of intelligence but that's about it, and I'm not saying Bowser is stupid, he's just really clumsy. But as a leader he does it much better than Eggman ever will do. (And I'm not going to go in full detail about every member of their armies because if I did we'd be here for quite a few hours but to simply put it, all of Bowser's generals can easily counteract some of the things that eggman's generals can do that's the only one that's really a threat to anyone in the koopa troop as a whole is metal Sonic, and even then no he pretty much will get bodied by Bowser regardless, because even for super neo metal Sonic all it takes is one grand star. I'm not going to say there's not a few scenarios where Eggman can win, but they are so specific that it's just not going to happen.)

[@Superpeak45]

@@beamkirby1158we hold it too highly I can agree Mario games are better then sonics but saying that eggman stands no chance against bowser is crazy

[@Superpeak45]

@@beamkirby1158also the chaos emeralds are way stronger Solaris was gonna destroy all of the sonic timeline which is above the universe and sonics universe is infinite

[@M185_X41]

Not to mention when I did research the plane of dreams in Mario and Luigi dream team is called the dream world not dream worlds meaning it's a single universe not multiple.

[@Espurr.8]

I don't really care who wins or if the outcome was correct am just glad it was fun

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@Espurr.8 ….so you do care who wins since you feel the outcome was correct? Which it wasn’t 🤷‍♂️

[@Espurr.8]

@TheGamingRift11 I probably should have worded that different when it comes to the this fight I can see both sides have arguments on why either Eggman or Bowser will win

[@KGKSkull]

@@TheGamingRift11so by your logic the episode was awful completely just because ivo didn’t win. And no speed feat? What about bowser going from dimble wood to the meeting room of castle toadstool in like 3 minutes tops. Or him keeping pace with Mario who DB has calced speed for? Or the fact bowser junior could keep pace with Mario in sunshine?

[@gonzalowhittembury3787]

@@TheGamingRift11 he or she never said that

[@Superpeak45]

@@KGKSkullbro he said he loved the animations he just thought the outcome was wrong

[@pepebowser]

Why can’t we just accept bowser won? Eggman already won one time and bowser deserves a win. It genuinely feels like people don’t want Mario fans to have anything

[@Luisp123-luckbutter21]

True

[@w1nther930]

It wouldn't exactly be right to accept the wrong character winning, would it? Like, it doesn't have to be franchise specific. Goku has lost 3 times in a row to Superman, Bardock somehow lost to Omniman, Vegeta lost to Thor. They have many loses too

[@Wahknight-ew5ml]

I mean Eggman Vs. Wily was more of a draw, but in a way, Eggman kinda won since his creation, Metal Sonic was the last surviving combatant.

[@xenorange]

@@pepebowser you cannot be serious, THE GAMES THEMSELVES are Mario’s wins. Mario has stayed good and consistent while Sonic to put it lightly has NOT. I can’t even fathom why someone would post this, MARIO needs a win? Gimmie a fucking break Sonic was down atrocious for years.

[@Bendytube72]

aw poor mario fans hey go buy another copy of super mario wonder that'll make you feel better

[@HopefulBlue]

The funny thing about Neo Metal is that you could scale it and Super Neo to a Frontiers Super Sonic due to them including Sonic Speed Sim in the canon material they will be considering for the analysis

[@noevlys]

Why is this even such a big problem for people? Like who cares who wins? Ive never even played a mario game or a sonic game in my life, people getting mad at death battle for fictional characters fighting in a non-canon outcome is just ridiculous to me, like why cant we be a nice community that doesn't insult each on who wins.. rather just be glad that something this cool can exist..

[@rafaelpereiragomes1735]

What's worse is that this isn't even new for fandoms. They can be so salty my mom would reject them for spice to food.😄 At the end of the day, these 2 are still great villains. They both deserve a victory, even if I prefer one side. The animation is cool, the music is epic, the personality of the characters is top-notch, it's good all-around.

[@URmomisABaddie-t6d]

It's just for fun ofc 🤷‍♂️ But yeah, you're right sometimes people go crazy when their favorite character loses

[@TheDimensionalArtist]

Before everyone asks... The Phantom Ruby does not Alter Perception. Otherwise, the Spikes that appear from the reality warp wouldn't be hurting them cause it's a PERCEPTION CHANGE. but since it is, it's full blown Altering Reality, it's not a trick of the eye

[@TheDimensionalArtist]

Infinite also wouldn't be able to destroy Buildings with that power, since again... YOU NEED TRUE REALITY ALTERING TO DO THAT, PERCEPTION WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ENOUGH. Also before you say "But that could be a perception change" The Buildings stay broken after Infinite Dies, and the Phantom Ruby Eggman used is destroyed. Meaning it wasn't a result of Perception change, otherwise it would've changed back revealing a world that hasn't been destroyed as much. It was destroyed and needed to be fixed.

[@ПавелДанилов-э8х]

Well he was able to create dark space or something and sealed Sonic.

[@TheDimensionalArtist]

@@ПавелДанилов-э8х Exactly, that needs the ability to Warp reality, not the perception of it.

[@TrixyTrixter]

So far as I get it, the phantom ruby makes use of living beings perception/senses to alter reality. Which really just ends up sounding like "It alters reality" with an extra step.

[@TheDimensionalArtist]

@@TrixyTrixter if that were the case, Several things wouldn't be Possible in Sonic Forces... For one, a Building isn't Living and in order to Target it with an Attack... It has to be alive, it also stays damaged after the war and Eggman most likely didn't do much, and let Infinite do all the work

[@MayorofGaming]

sonic fans when the cartoony character does cartoon logic stuff 😭

[@TheGamingRift11]

Ahh yes because sonic totally isn’t a cartoony character who does cartoony things? 🤔

[@CuteRedPanda64]

@@TheGamingRift11 it's more like he does anime things more than Cartoony things.

[@shadowkirby7210]

The crazy thing is, mfs will say that statements don't mean anything, yet take stuff like Bowser being able to wish people out of existence litetrally, even though it's never shown. By that logic, Perfect Cell isn't solar system level.

[@Sans-Xero77]

I believe bowser still wins against Eggman, you don't need speed to win, you just to make what matter counts

[@solaris3251]

This statement is vague af, and doesn't make use of any arguments to justify Bowser's victory over Eggman.

[@chanceytaylor4209]

​@@solaris3251 Bro you need to stop commenting. Your name is quite literally Solaris. We all know you are mega biased. Let a man enjoy his opinion

[@solaris3251]

@@chanceytaylor4209 You're basically trying to invalidate my arguments by saying: "Oh, he has a Sonic character as nickname, he must be biased!" Try to use arguments next time man.

[@Fnaflover999max]

@@solaris3251 other then IQ. Dr egg man doesnt really have any massive advantages unlike Bowser who has a massive advantage in Durability, arsonal and Abilities. but the biggest thing Bowser has a advantage over egg is counters. They both have Universe alting abilitys that can reshape reality. But Bowser is the only one that has counters or ways to stop dr egg mans. meanwhile egg man doesnt really have anything to counter Bowsers best abilitys. Thats why imo Bowser should of gotten Trump-Cards in the DB but its whatever

[@solaris3251]

@@Fnaflover999max Do you realize that does things ultimatly don't mean much for Bowser, right? Eggman has the speed advantange, the scalling advantange and more powerful mcuffings. The Dream Stone is fodder compared to the chaos emeralds and eggman has things like the time eater that can simply bring things back from non existance. He also has allies that scale to Super Sonic in 06, the same Sonic that was capable to put a fight and defeat Solaris, a being so poweful that was able to erase all of Sonic's cosmology with his mere presence. Pls undestand... Bowser is by no means weak, is just that the gap in scalling from the Sonic and Mario's universes is just too huge.

[@metaltrashbucket]

Nobody is actually powerscaling to find out whos stronger, its all about agenda. Eggman wins

[@unlimitedbladeworksemiya]

My guy power scaled like Mario fans and beat them at their own game

[@Mashu-tw7yf]

Bro doesn't even know anything about mario scaling so he just glazed eggman. Again how big(or powerful) is the mario universe? Edit: Remember guys you owe it to both franchises to research properly(in other words not glaze your own after a quick vsbattles search)and come to a clear answer. Imo neither stomps the other but I'm giving it to bowser and his hax till further notice

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@Mashu-tw7yf yes I had to do research. Did you not listen?

[@Mashu-tw7yf]

@TheGamingRift11 if you did do research you would see that bowser and the rest of the mario cast does have consistent inaccessible and even some immeasurable speed scaling. Mario 64 (mario runs through stopped time) The Void in paper mario which given their crossover game mario scales to. AND AGAIN Mario's universe is actually really big literally on the same scale as sonic's (both are 5D with parallels). I also saw that you said eggman says that infinite is stronger by a trillion fold. No he isn't it says that his creation would pay sonic back for all the defeats he's suffered by a trillion fold. I don't think he was referring to power my guy.

[@Zach-o9y]

​@@TheGamingRift11Ratioed in your own comment section is crazy

[@Fnaflover999max]

@@TheGamingRift11 ah yeah the reserch. guys he totally reserched just take his word for it. he doesnt need proof or ways to show that he reserched but he defently did it

[@Yamatonix11]

@@TheGamingRift11 your research amounts to "b-but muh sonic emeraldzzzzz".

[@andrewfujimura9914]

Sonic fanboys will spend 15 minutes explaining why Eggman is 1000 times faster than infinity MPH and then wonder why Death Battle ignores them.

[@Warking19]

Because its stupid. Infinite lost to some guy knuckles grabbed off the street

[@arl165]

@@Warking19 Lol the author of this video is such a loser, Dreamy Bowser literally solos all of sonic except the archie verse.

[@gamerboi5678]

bro he did that IN SONIC 2- wait when do they fight the death egg? yeah even sonic cant catch him wish this was a classic's fight and what if the mini bosses were there?

[@HypercomboProduction]

​@@gamerboi5678 it is strange that Bowser doesn't use the Koopalings or his infinite Boombooms or Pompoms. Even the Broodles and King Womp don't appear.

[@loveorlogic0]

cough cough ben ten vs green lantern

[@Spark_The_G_Shep]

The power scaling goes crazy whenever these fights happen

[@FatalGod404]

Death battle can’t include every scenario in the animation there not made of money. They also did factor in those mechs just that they did factor in those mechs in the post analysis

[@kadeemwallace6014]

the scenario they went with had the wrong conclusion that's the problem

[@FatalGod404]

@ it really wasn’t but okay

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@FatalGod404 “they aren’t made of money” I hope ur aware they pay their researchers….right? If they can’t be arsed to include the accurate scenario then those payments are wasted

[@FatalGod404]

@ The animator made alternate scenarios for this fight and they can’t include everything in the animated fight

[@metalgamer1416vamoscontodoXD]

​@@FatalGod404if they made different scenarios....does that mean they just choose the only ones where Sonic characters lose even if we know that by pure speed all eggman robots (and yes, all or just 99% of them) already reach Sonic speed and can be actually dangerous to eliminate all bowser minions including kamek and only king boo might survive but it could also be defeat by the phantom ruby due it's reality change? I'm 100% the more you analize the fight, the more inconsistences you find because that scenario they went totally forget the only thing that werent even used in all the Sonic characters loses, the speed, and i'm sure you could Say they can wish this or make that, but knowing that basically they won't even have time to react and they act like they already fight them giving obviously bowser advantage and clearly eggman don't act as if he study them, just pay attention toward the speed and the fact of awareness of the feats of each other and you will see there always were an fave for death battle, in short Sonic characters loses just because they always will do the imposible to reject the speed factor and you can see it in each single time they do an fight against Sonic characters, and we know already that Sonic vs mario was bad due lack of speed factor, and they put all things in favor of Mario , now they do the same with eggman who with one single mecha could wipe the bowser minions (after all bowser its the only one who can resist and compete directly with eggman but we know that eggman could trick bowser in many ways ,after all he only act crazy and berserk with Sonic because he is indeed an problem but when it comes to other beings he try to do and already did better plans like how he did at sonic unleash where he already control the whole situation until Sonic appears, in short he has more scenario to win by just speed, but unless he go slow and don't even try to trick them (wich was this specific case and was used the entire battle) then obviously you wanted to see bowser win by nerf the eggman army forces without even ask why they lose because they ignore the speed, now to beat bowser alone possibly eggman might use the phantom ruby to make another bowser and make himself punch himself for an very basic example, in fact, eggman could just destroy the planet and end the battle if he wanted in first place, or summon the sun and burn them all and make infinite not so exposed knowing how fast he is too, sorry but the more you analize the more you see this battle was pay to make bowser win and ignore all the easy ways the bowser army would loose, i might make more sense that bowser alone destroy most of eggman robots and his bowser army get destroyed due lack of force to be honest but they make him have the army survive more than it should be, in the end this battle was pay to make bowser looks more heroic and likable and see that he can outmatch speed wich for the very rest of his army isnt posible, but im sure you will find an way to answer since you looks like be aware of the speed and mind factors of eggman i guess

[@superdude899]

Downplay Bowser all you want, doesn't change the fact he won and just about everyone agrees lmao. The salt is real

[@anap1680]

A vague your downplaying him before not saying how lmao

[@superdude899]

@@anap1680 Yup

[@sans101]

Fr

[@raiwserkoopa2221]

honestly, i knew long before the death battle that bowser was gonna win. It wouldn't matter if time eater was there, as bowser could just use the dream stone to wish him out of existence

[@yugimoto3296]

Skylanders Superchargers hammer slam Bowser. He's low outer, scaling to characters capable of knocking fictional characters out of fiction and using 'mind magic' (it's a not very subtle metaphor for coding that the Ancients (Developers) used to make the game) to make their own characters.

[@DolphCapnOli2001]

Nice Video. But Thwomp Still Obliterates Infinite

[@Magma-Idiot-2001]

If I had a quarter for every time I've seen Infinite get got by a Thwomp, I'd have two quarters, which is both funny and strange that it happened twice.

[@Aegisdex]

Thwomp is the ultimate counter to frauds, next time someone says you are all powerful make sure thwomp isnt above you

[@JakeStateFarm-yj4yg]

Bowser can troupes are able to take the universe but egg man can only take over planters my guy

[@MATI640]

TheGamingRift 0:32 ya i see Mario's cosmology is likely a fifth dimensional construct as the mystery Circle Galaxy in Mario Galaxy is referenced to be a super space which is a concept of SpaceTime that is defined by having mor0e than four coordinates I.E being fifth dimensional and this actually is consistent as in the level itself we can see things phase in and out of like reality just like how a fourth-dimensional object would react in our Dimension and stuff so yeah Mario's Universe being 5D big game changer as in the same game Mario was able to fight on par with Bowser who tanked the G Galaxy reactor blowing up on him blowing up on him like Point Blank this weapon being so potent that it was going to destroy the entire universe

[@KGKSkull]

Bowser is actually fast, just not on his feet, when in his shell he is much faster and has better defense. Also, bowser had this because of how his army can mix abilities which would give trouble to sage and Eggman. Examples goombas and fire bros make goomba storm, shy guys and spikes make a weaker shy guy squad. His speed wasn’t a factor because his durability is insane and his leadership is far superior

[@huntingdrums]

I feel like if a red plumber could beat a turtle guy than a smart doctor can beat a turtle guy

[@ultraura9743]

To be fair that plumber is very strong

[@saltendo2177]

I think what everyone fails to realize is that battles are situational. You can't just go "Oh, but Solaris, Time Eater, Dreamy Bowser, Star Rod" when the context of the situation probably forbids any of those from being a part of the equation. There exist scenarios where one dors not have access to their biggest trump card, and there are scenarios where one simply cannot immediately come up with the #1 best move while being attacked. It's like expecting Magnus Carlsen to defeat a 1500 ELO while being put on a 10-second timer. So maybe before you try and "debunk" the fight, instead of just listing feats, maybe rewatch the video, analyze from certain points, and consider, "Hey, what could this guy have done in this scenario? What would it do to the opposition, and what would it do to their side? Is it too destructive? Are there better moves to play? What could they have anticipated?" It should go without saying that items and weapons that are considered as "hax" or "multi/omniversal" can be taken away or disposed of.

[@thestickmansavioryt1941]

Realistically speaking, Sage is relative to Sonic in terms of speed, and she was specifically designed by Eggman to search infinite possible scenarios to find the perfect route to act on while controlling Eggman's entire mechanical army. Sage would've instantly constructed the _best_ hypothetical scenario, and the realistic powerscaling for Eggman's army put into picture, Eggman claps Bowser and his son.

[@saltendo2177]

@thestickmansavioryt1941 That is a strong argument, but the *best* possible solution would have to be refreshed multiple times during the fight as the opposition isn't going to always act in your favor. Additionally, if Sage was able to get the best possible outcome, then by that logic, Eggman would have defeated Sonic in Frontiers, which isn't the case, I'm assuming (not having played Frontiers, but he usually wins). Then, you have to take into account that most of Eggman's army is made of metal, which can be burned by Bowser's fire breath. Not only that, but Bowser's generals work with magic, so practically anything is possible. So that's why I argue that it depends on the context. Whether Eggman wants to immediately make the most use of everyone's power on his side or to let their armies fight before even doing anything helpful, you could argue for either side. But there are infinite possibilities, which means that there are infinite outcomes where either one wins.

[@Warking19]

@thestickmansavioryt1941 Some problems with that. Bowser has stuff sage just can't predict. Like his Skeleton just standing back up and all of the items . Also considering bowser has 98 million troops under his command and all of them can use power ups. Sage getting a good scenario would take a while

[@BeatboxingLeprechaun]

Honestly, you pointed out such an important thing in Death Battles We should be focusing on the battle itself, and then wonder what either Bowser or Eggman could've done in each situation instead of saying "Oh, but Dreamy Bowser and Infinite scale to blah blah blah" Good job on pointing that out

[@cringemariobros2516]

This entire video is just Bowser downplay you said the peak is Multiverse death battle showed multiple Feats for Bowser

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@cringemariobros2516 and deathbattle still lowballed bowser to country level in their explanations, by implying that was impressive in the slightest. That’s how terrible they are at accurately judging characters Also I scaled bowser higher than screw attack did in speed yet it’s still not enough 🤷‍♂️

[@Warking19]

@@TheGamingRift11 Death battle gave him incalculable speed. Its in the corner box

[@ihavenolife1295]

​@@TheGamingRift11Death battle gave both Infinite multi and incalculable speed in the black box at the corner.

[@DeathBattleFan-wi4cc]

​@@TheGamingRift11there not called screw attack anymore they are independent now.

[@cringemariobros2516]

@@TheGamingRift11 you said at bare minimum, he gets to Multiverse when he gets way higher and has way more and better feats then just dreamy Bowser and they stated some of those and you completely skipped over the paper Mario feats they did really good, judging Bowser and Eggman the fact that you say infinite is the strongest is blowing it out of proportion when his entire gimmick is just messing with your mind nothing is truly happening, barely any of those characters you mentioned would be a problem for Bowser

[@ItsOvern4U]

If they wanted this to really work. Metal, Jr, Kamek, Sage and Infinite shouldn't have been there.

[@mlgamings6110]

Sorry, but I disagree. This battle was basically magic vs technology and all of Eggman's most powerful weapons (trump cards) were already addressed. The Time Eater and Phantom Ruby were addressed. Although I don't like the way the Chaos Emeralds were addressed with the Grand Stars. They actually should have used the Pure Hearts and the Chaos Heart. Bowser was able to defeat Dimentio using the Pure Hearts despite Dimentio having the power of the Chaos Heart and the Chaos Heart had the ability to destroy the Multiverse, arguably the same level as Solaris. So I agree with them calling the Trump Category a tie. And as for Super Neo metal Sonic, infinite, any of Eggman's Mechs or the Titans? Dreamy Bowser could just wish them away. The end, easy as that. As to why he didn't just do so against Mario and Luigi? Plot Armour.

[@gaztalesans2751]

Plot Armor isn't an argument my guy, he just couldn't therefore if he's faced against any enemy that took sonic in his super form to defeat he'd be gone within seconds dawg

[@TrueDarkLeo]

Reading debates on internet is literally bunch of clowns fighting each other. While I am one of those people who just sits back and enjoys the show.

[@bombertube6860]

Lmao

[@GreatSunkenVessel-yd1]

This is like watching someone give armies of chimps AKs and watching the chaos ensue.

[@X-Cite69]

I don’t care how badly you think forces wrote infinite as a character. Death battle found a way to make him even more of a joke, and wrote him as an afterthought.. Infinite alone could wipe out bowser’s entire army with little to no effort, it’s basically his specialty! He wipes out 90% of the resistance’s forces in sonic forces.. EFFORTLESSLY. .. granted.. that was under a plan knuckles thought up “in a minute and a half.”

[@PheasantRunFarm]

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm really really not, but when your channel has Sonic character emojis it seems like there's a particular demographic that you and your audience are apart of that of course wouldn't like the outcome if it didn't go the exact way you wanted it to.

[@solaris3251]

That's basically saying: "You're all Sonic fans of course you would want to Eggman to beat Bowser!"

[@PheasantRunFarm]

@@solaris3251spot on!

[@PheasantRunFarm]

@@solaris3251 spot on

[@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy.]

Doesn't matter. Debunk the argument. IoI i never understood ppI like you. Why are looking at their pfo and not their argument. If a sonic fan says the sky is blue, are they suddenly wrong because their sonic fans? You can be a fan and right at the sametime.

[@PheasantRunFarm]

@ Just gonna repost one of the messages I've sent before to explain what I find silly about it since it's like super late. If people are really going to make quote on quote debunking videos, they should do their research on the other side as well and try to prove their argument and how Bowser couldn't counter it, but even then there probably would be bias especially on the Sonic fandom side. That's why these videos just seem a little silly to me, instead of a proper debunking it's just "Well, Dr. Robotnik can actually __" or "Why didn't Dr. Robotnik use __?" which makes it hard for me to take it seriously. It's clear this KZbinr, and many other Sonic creators who have made these types of videos, aren't looking with an unbiased view but instead with confirmation bias. I'd say the same thing if Bowser lost and the Mario fandom was doing the same thing. It's confirmation bias, it's targeted for a specific audience. Not saying Death Battle is the gospel, but they seem to present everything in an unbiased logical manner.

[@DXDJ]

“Which is crazy” “Blitz” “Which is crazy” “Blitz” “Which is crazy” Sorry, man. Bowser has too much toon force to lose lol

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@DXDJ so why does he lose in pretty much every game? That’s a cop out answer

[@RichardWaugh-vd2df]

@@TheGamingRift11you mean the same thing eggman does?

[@Serious5GamingS5G]

​@@TheGamingRift11 Eggman also loses in pretty much every game too?

[@aidanhammans9337]

Bowser has Toon Force, Mario and Luigi have more. That’s why Bowser never wins.

[@DXDJ]

@@TheGamingRift11 Because Mario has toon force and is stronger lol.

[@nezooelbosaty8525]

I think that at this point metal sonic has scoliosis from carrying the team

[@jz2848]

You already lost me at 30 seconds in the video. “I don’t know shit about Mario scaling.” And yet you “claim” to scale him higher, but you still downplay and lowballed Bowser, while at the same time glazing Eggman You already have zero reason to talk about this

[@DamashiTheKaotic]

What he meant was that prior to doing research for this video, he didn't know much about Mario scaling.

[@xenorange]

It’s called research bro, he looked it up. Not hard. DB lowballed Eggy If anything man.

[@TrixyTrixter]

Have not watched the video fully yet, but just assuming that he takes DB at their word for the mario scaling, he could still rescale the sonic stuff and come out with a different outcome.

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

He states that he scaled Bowser higher than Death Battle did when Death Battle made him much stronger than he claimed Bowser was.

[@Replies.Delete.Sometimes.IDKy.]

Yes and his words can be observed. You can see this vod then see DB's battIe and literally see with your eyes that he scaled him higher. So yes. He is correct. Thank you.

[@danny660boy4]

In my personal opinion i still think bowser wins but it doesn't mean i disagree with this video because we literally both have different opinions on the scaling of the sonic and mario

[@whyumad2983]

Elaborate

[@Alex-il9jm]

Could you explain how?

[@Shiiba_Inu]

theres no opinions theres straight up facts you cant disagree with

[@danny660boy4]

@Shiiba_Inu do I care

[@BloxTheMvp]

@@Shiiba_Inu theres no facts when it comes to both sides having questionable feats in a hypothetical fight that can never actually be proven

[@jerryworshiper1587]

stop scaling sonic stuff to statements of something being stronger than everything before it, just use actual feats.

[@PauloH100]

One thing that is a fact is that Sonic gets stronger over time. So there are things that can be scaled based on this. And even if you don't put Infinite as stronger than Solaris and Time Eater, he would still be enough on his own. Like, he can create an infinite army of characters he wants. Or just drop a sun on Bowser's entire army

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@jerryworshiper1587 I did use feats and statements. As most people would use feats and statements for bowser also Sorry that your headcanon doesnt align with facts 🤷‍♂️

[@CuteRedPanda64]

​@@PauloH100 "Getting stronger overtime" doesn't really prove anything without context. Plus Kamek can literally disable Infinite's abilities. Bowser survived black holes, lava, big bang and an actual sun. A fake son is not going to do anything.

[@leikesdark]

​@@CuteRedPanda64 Sonic had to use his super form in Adventurer 1 to defeat Perfect Chaos and in Generations he could do it in his normal form.

[@CuteRedPanda64]

@@leikesdark he lost to Zavok, shadow, metal, chaos and fraud (Infinite) in forces.

[@Vetadelta3892]

"Eggman wins cuz umm.. sped"

[@joshuaalspach4633]

Death battle: he has all these mech and robot, proceeds to not even include half of his mechs

[@leikesdark]

It should be mentioned that he has at least one version of every mech after Forces literally in his basement. This was shown in an IDW comic, and it's also said that Sage can control his entire army, which should include every mech. Edit: I should mention that the IDW comics are canon to the games.

[@joshuaalspach4633]

@ yeah I’ve been known that they are canon to the games I just haven’t gotten in to reading any sadly anyways thanks for the knowledge

[@leikesdark]

@@joshuaalspach4633 there are good summaries on KZbin, videos where people dub or read out the comics

[@MindForgedManacle]

This is a silly complaint. There would be zero purpose or benefit to showing literally everything. Half the stuff wouldn't change anything, and the rest would at best tie things up. So what's the point???

[@joshuaalspach4633]

@ I see why you would think this but if eggman had all of mech including the egg salamander bowser would of been cooked, and death battle takes all of their contestants at full strength. So that’s why I add that comment Edit: yes it completely would change the outcome. It’s kinda a crime that they didn’t give eggman the time eater, anyways

[@Unibias]

So the funny thing about this matchup is simply allowing Bowser to bring his family and army at all is actual a biased advantage/crutch given for the sake of thematics. It makes sense and sounds cool at first, and seems to follow suite with Wiley vs Eggman, but I'm surprised nobody has thought about it to realize it doesnt. DB had a strict rule of outside help allowed, but they actual broke it with this battle. The reason is that Wiley and Eggman's entire thing is creating their own army specifically for the means or conquering their foes. If you just put Eggman in his best mech only vs Bowser by himself, sure Bowser would likely win even still but that would be an obvious disservice to Eggman. Allowing Bowser to use his army is literally giving him outside help even if they are present in all the games. When they take a character that is always part of a team to fight someone else in other DBs they don't just get to bring their team along. That is outside help. Nothing Eggman brings is outside help, it was all created by him and represents what he as a fictional character is capable of. So realistically based off DB's rules it should have been Bowser and all his dumb artifacts and magic vs Eggman and everything he has created. It's kind of a messed up from matchup to begin with. That said, it couldn't be any more obviously how superior Eggman's army is to the koopa troop. The vast majority of the koopa troop should be wiped out without even getting any chance at all to fight back. This goes for the koopalings and JR too, which they just completely ignore a lack of individual feats for. None of them should be able to contribute much at all, but instead they allowed JR to tank a multiversal attack, survive, then instantly transmute a moon sized object outside of the atmosphere. As great as the animation is, it shouldn't appear that one side is doing shit that's never really been seen before or how is it even convincing. Just the fact that they had to show Fury Bowser with a Grand Star combined firing a huge rainbow kamehameha to justify Super Neo Metal getting killed, which one again is highly debatable, shows that they can't come up with any believable way to show how the winners should win. How about we stick with animations that show the fighters doing things that actually normally do instead of wanking it up to absolute fanfic levels instead.

[@finbarrsworld]

Someone’s salty

[@Unibias]

@finbarrsworld I can't be that salty when I've beat over two dozen Mario games. I love Bowser, and I'm sensible enough to know he's capable of. His battle against Ganondorf was wrong and upset me as well. I don't enjoy the inaccurate portrayal regardless of it being his in favor or not. It's not like I'm going to go make a debunk video or anything though.

[@Unibias]

@@finbarrsworld How many Grand Stars do you think a hammer bro would need to be able to defeat Thor? There are certainly enough for it to be possible according to DB.

[@finbarrsworld]

@@Unibias As long your not bias this fight can go either way

[@sans101]

Yapper mc yapperson

[@TheRedRabbit08]

.. Y'all know the chaos emeralds turn thoughts into reality, right? Like, a wish?

[@leonelzubieta8636]

So do the star road, dream stone, king boo stone and magic

[@DanDaMan1]

​@@leonelzubieta8636 And? The seven Emeralds turn you into a deity slaying monster😂

[@Warking19]

​@@DanDaMan1So does all the things the other lad mentioned

[@solaris3251]

@@Warking19 The only difference is that the chaos emeralds scales way above ALL those things

[@Warking19]

@@solaris3251 Not really

[@StarlightSayaka]

Let's tear this apart bit by bit: 1) No, Sonic doesn't cross an infinite amount of distance in Seven Rings. We quite literally see Sonic getting out via magical doors once and he crosses a finite distance within the palace. Even if the realm was indeed infinite, the palace isn't, it's quite clearly limited. Erazor could have made an endless night sky or an endless void surrounding the palace (which is, judging by aesthetics, what appearently happened), justifying the infinite size, but the palace is still finite. Also, considering the amount of anti-feats and lore dedicated to Sonic which contradicts Sonic having infinite speed (and I'm talking about the current iterations of Sonic, who is >>>> Sonic in seven rings, even if the speed feat was legit it would be a gigantic outlier). 2) It Is thoroughly explained by the 2 Tails and by other various sources like game tips how the 2 Sonics are the only ones who aren't helpless in this situation and have the ability to restore space-time. Even after they were saved by Sonic, several speedy characters who by Generations are quite clearly much faster than Classic Sonic (like Blaze, Silver or Espio) are still useless in that very scenario, but a slower character like Classic Sonic isn't, so It seems that speed here Isn't the only key to said feat. It becomes clearer when we realize that Sonic and Classic Sonic, for some reason unexplained, are the only ones who managed to survive the Time Eater's erasure, which is likely directly linked to how they are the only ones capable of doing said feat. Similiarly, Shadow Is also capable of said feat, and Shadow also resisted Time Eater's space-time erasure, and Shadow is built to be exceptional, is chaos-amped and through explanations in Shadow Generations we have some direct analogy as to how Shadow is exceptional because he was built to be so and Sonic manages to be comparable through his own exceptional powers. Not to mention, there Is a story panel in the Sonic Official JP released by Sega which confirms that Sonic fixes space-time by running at the speed of sound, the same Is confirmed in the Shadow Generations official site, and finally Shadow confirmed he could use Chaos Control to stop time indefinetely within White Space to allow Gerald and Maria to live. So, the feat is bullshit regardless 3) Sonic escaping Null Space is, again, the same as the palace in Seven rings. When Infinite trapped Sonic and Rookie in Null Space, he unleashes this black portal, sorta similiar to a black hole, and then Sonic and Rookie get sucked in. Once in Null Space, they run and at some point we quite clearly see Sonic and Rookie reach a red portal before going back to the city (that red portal was visible from a distance already), and once in the city we see that they went out of another Null Space's black portal thing but this time they are in another side of the city. This quite literally shows that Null Space is a tunnel with two endings, aka not infinite. The game literally shows us this. 4) Those statements about Eggman mechs are quite clearly hyperbolic and they are massively contradicted by estabilished lore. One of the key points in Sonic is that Eggman longs after the emeralds' infinite power, that only those can bring about all the power and feats he desires, so it wouldn't make sense IN ANY WAY that mechs not empowered by chaos emeralds are superior to the Egg Salamander, which is empowered by the Sol Emeralds who are = Chaos Emeralds, and Egg Wizard, which had the power of the stars which was scientifically measured by the Eggmen to be >>>>>Chaos Emeralds + Sol Emeralds. Also, you are massively overstimating the potential of the Egg Wizard, but that requires more arguments and I frankly do not have time now. As for Nega-Wisp Armor, Eggman stating it to be invincible doesn't matter when it got literally defeated and it being> Chaos Power, as you said, is scrapped content --> it doesn't count as canonical to the lore's script, because it was completely erased from it (could very possibly be the authors didn't believe it to be true). Why would someone take into account these kinds of descriptions anyway, through all over fiction these statements are some of the most common and they are mostly used just to hype things up and give a cool sounding definition rather than actually powerscale, especially since the authors of a game are most likely not aware nor invested into creating a coherent powerscaling. Which Is why you have these claims that, via completely ignoring context, could get them to scale above Egg Wizard, but then you have the writers claiming that Sonic doesn't even reach light speed, Super Sonic does not planet bust, etc (Ian and some others have made those claims). Hell, if we want to play the game of "the statements", there are not just statements but even SHOWINGS from the games' plots, aka statements/showings that are fundamental to the lore, that quite literally go against your powerscaling and these anti-feats happen in quite literally every sonic game: the Sonic crew getting destroyed by a city-sized star, Sonic crew was gonna die if Emerl would have destroyed the Earth via the energy claimed from the Final Egg Blaster in Sonic Battle, all living beings dying if the reactor wiped out the planet in an explosion in Sonic Lost World, Sonic not being able to break doors, Sonic can't bust out prison bars, Sonic cast getting decimated if the Ark had collided with Earth, Sonic being unable to survived a capsule exploding in Sonic Adventure 2, the cast needing to escape from Prison Island blowing up or else they would have died, Sonic crew dying if they got caught up in a city explosion (IDW), Sonic crew dying if they got cought by and avalanche, and I just took some stuff from the back of my mind but there are several of these showings/statements. Finally, Eggman has an habit of massively overestimating his own projects and mechs, saying how "this time he would win cause he's super strong", but always comically fails, sometimes in ways that make him look like he got weaker instead of stronger. Aka, he's not that reliable. 5) Infinite's statement is essentially the same as the mechs statement, but worse, not only because he got trashed severely, but also because the statement about him being the strongest Sonic has faced can only be applied to the other bosses Sonic fought in base (since Infinite only fought Base Sonic) who are MASSIVELY

[@RackerTheRascalMashup]

Just some things; Shadow can also do the generations feat according to Lizuka in a ign shadow generations interview Sonic Colors DS has a direct mention by tails and then confirmed by sonic of: "Eggman's robots just keep getting stronger, huh?" "Yes" "Still nothing i can't handle, though" While I don't fully agree to this statement of every next Eggman Machine being stronger than the older one, i will say that there's some validity and truth within but with some specific mechs instead of all

[@DamashiTheKaotic]

1. Those "magic doors" aren't actually there. They are a visual representation of Sonic's speed, because quite obliviously we the player cant keep of with a game that is going that the speed he is truly going. Sonic and Metal Sonic provably moved at over 546 million times faster than light during the Final Boss of Sonic Rivals 1, but for for the sake of the game still being playable by a human, nothing changes. The Night Palace itself is stated to be of infinite size, and while you could make the argument that Sonic doesn't traverse the entire expanse of the Night Palace, Sonic does still manage to brute force his way back to his home universe through speed alone at the end of the game, so stating Sonic has infinite speed if we low ball him is still accurate. 2. It's not hax. We see in Shadow Generations that Shadow is capable of doing the same thing, implying anyone that matches Sonic's speed could do the same including Metal Sonic. Blaze and Silver aren't at Sonic's level of speed at the time of Sonic Generations, and arguably never have been. The fastest we can clock base Silver is 546 million times faster than light thanks to Rivals, and we see in his fight with Sonic in Generations that Sonic is capable of out pacing him. 3. Null Space has no natural exit. The portal is the result of Sonic using his speed to brute force an exit similar to the end of Secret Rings where he forces himself back to his own universe. 4. Eggman's statements aren't hyperbole. The Final Egg Blaster can casually wipe out solar systems in a single shot, and it can do this WITHOUT any chaos emeralds. Eggman is a shit talker, but his statements aren't just him gassing himself up. Eggman's statements are meant to be taken as Word of God, unless he is explicitly shown to be lying. 5. Infinite never actually gets trashed. He effortless beats Sonic in their first encounter. In their second encounter due to Sonic growing more powerful since the 6 months time-skip is able to keep pace with Infinite and make him struggle, but ultimately Sonic still loses that fight. In their third encounter Infinite is massively weakened as a result of Sonic and co destroying one of the Phatom Ruby Proto types' power sources, and infinite creating a fake Sun, and even with all these debuffs Sonic only beat Infinite using Super Power of Team Work amps (which is something I hate saying, but it is a consistent aspect of the Sonic Cosmology so I have to acknowledge it). 6. Its not faulty scaling. As already discussed in 5, Eggman was not using hyperbole when talking about Infinite's strength, and Metal Sonic is constantly growing and evolving to match Sonic at all times. The End, stated by Sega, is the embodiment of death itself in the Sonic Cosmology. It is less a being, and more of a concept. The titans are stated, and shown, to be on par with Frontiers Super Sonic who is significantly more powerful than the Super Sonic that fought Solaris, which according to the Encyclospedia, was more powerful than base Solaris at the time, meaning The End at full strength was more powerful than 4 Super Sonic tier opponents, and the best the Ancients could hope for was a stalemate. Bowser doesn't stomp at all. Based On Frontiers scaling Super Neo Metal Sonic alone could have blitzed the entirety of Bowser's forces, including Bowser himself, before he could even react. Bowser's only hope would be to wish them all away, but even that might not work as we have seen Sonic characters resist attacks that erase existence or warp reality, as shown in Secret Rings, 06, and Generations.

[@Darkwing709]

This describes my opinion on sonic scaling entirely. People over scale characters to the moon cause they put WAY too much stock in statements rather than goin by actual feats we see on screen in cutscenes. You expect me to believe sonic and crew are infinite 11D or some nonsense when they were doomed to die from a star? In frontiers sonic is literally KOd after being thrown softball style into a mountain with not even enough force to bust it…just some cracks in the stone. And you can’t even get away with calling it multiversal level AP cause he was throw, not punched or zapped with a blast, he was literally tossed with less force than mountain busting. People over scale the sonic verse plain and simple.

[@RackerTheRascalMashup]

​@@Darkwing709Isn't that just scaling in general most of the time?

[@Darkwing709]

@@RackerTheRascalMashup kinda…my opinion on scaling is far different than how most view it. It’s really more subjective than people like the video maker try to make it seem, especially when you get into situations that happen in canon cutscenes that completely contradict the statements they love to take outta context like the two examples I just gave. The guy above JUST implied that sonic brute forced himself outta null space when we CLEARLY see him needing help from the rookie to speed up and exit from an already existing opening, then say himself that he woulda been trapped without aid…in other words implying that sonic can just open worm holes now based on nothing shown in game. This is why I like to scale based on feats shown, cause in the end this is all subjective and outside of word of god, we can only do our best to scale based on what’s shown. Keep in mind that the abilities these characters have are also dictated by what the devs want to center the games theme around and can be changed based on that alone.

[@ashuraomega1000]

Bowser slams and you will never defend this horrendous take

[@TheGamingRift11]

@@ashuraomega1000 I agree. “Bowser slamming” is a horrendous take and I will never defend it 👍

[@pepebowser]

@@TheGamingRift11let Mario fans be happy :(

[@Retro-shru]

​@@TheGamingRift11 My guy you've been debunked like 20 times in this comment section 😂

[@RIPLEGENDLLJW]

@@TheGamingRift11I agree with you

[@BeatboxingLeprechaun]

​@@Retro-shruYeah, cause there are over 45k people watching the video That can literally be said about any debunk video

[@Blue9k]

Alright I have A LOT of issues with this video but I'm gonna address 2 of the important ones 1. The argument for the egg dragoon being > egg wizard and salamander is very disingenuous considering the main reason why both of those mechs scale high at all is due to external amps (egg wizard with the power of the stars and egg salamander with the sol emeralds) so the mechs themselves obviously aren't that strong without their external power sources, so sure the egg dragoon can scale above the base versions of both mechs without their amp but not with it. 2. You're argument for base form characters having beyond finite speed aren't good at all, for the secret rings statement you would have to prove sonic crossed the entire infinite distance to say he would have infinite speed which you can't prove is the case, for the generations argument tails is not being literal when he says sonic "accelerates" through time, as the game makes it pretty clear that time doesn't exist in white space, so what time can sonic accelerate through if there isn't any lmaoo. Also fixing space and time via speed is just hax idk why you think it would be inaccessible or higher

[@solaris3251]

1. I agree 2. It ultimately doesn't matter considering that Sonic uses his speed to escape Null Void, and Null Void is described to be a dimension where space and time don't exist, making the feat to Immesurable speed at best.

[@shrapt3528]

Idk bout the second one it is stated that the sonic's speed in that game of both modern and classic restores time which is an immeasurable speed feat. That's just how it is.

[@Blue9k]

@@solaris3251 null space is never stated to have no space or time, idk where you get this from. The most that's stated about the realm is it being endless but that runs into the same issue I pointed out with his secret rings argument

[@Blue9k]

@@shrapt3528 restoring time isn't immeasurable speed that's not how that works lmaoo. Immeasurable speed is moving beyond linear time which is not what sonic is doing

[@solaris3251]

@@Blue9k Linear time? Ok, Sonic in CD was able to break the time barrier and travel thought time in CD, as stated in the manual of that game. Sonic has Immesurable speed even in CD.

[@yensawabi2098]

No I highly disagree Because thwomp Can kill infinite That means thwomp Can kill all of eggman's robots And him So yes it's not close But thwomp Solo's the sonic franchise That means Bowser wins.

[@somechupacabrawithinternet8866]

false

[@Gorosaurus1967]

Fax

[@EggmansGreatestCreation]

I can't tell if you're actually for real with this but. The only reasom Thwomp killed infinite is because he made gravity heavier making the thwomp a lot more powerful

[@EggmansGreatestCreation]

Plus, it is said he is not dead Just contemplating his existance after being one shot by thwomp lol

[@wiiu-theunderratedconsole7569]

Thwomp (Prime) >>>> Sonic verse

[@SansINess53]

Honestly, sonic will probably blitzes bowser and mario at the same time.

[@CuteRedPanda64]

@@SansINess53 Both Mario and Bowser has crazy high durability for Sonic to even "Blitz" them.

[@SansINess53]

@CuteRedPanda64 yeah, but sonic has immeasurable speed, and it's pretty consistent, and mario and bowser are still in the speed equation. They don't have infinite.

[@SansINess53]

@CuteRedPanda64 they both will not hit sonic regardless, and still, sonic really has insane strength, not to mention striking strength, making blitzing both really.

[@SansINess53]

@CuteRedPanda64 anyway that's it really. Sonic can beat both because he scales way higher than both, sonic is literally growing stronger by the second. That's the thing that makes him crazy strong.

[@CuteRedPanda64]

@@SansINess53 well Mario and Bowser was able to move through a place where time stops and not sure how Sonic's strength is even above Mario's or Bowser's but ok.

[@HazbinHotelStaff]

Bruh you're asking why didnt Death Battle bring in Solaris or Titans? You sound like a cry baby... in that case, why didnt Death Battle bring in Dreamy Bowser and just wish Eggman and Solaris away? Juat except that Bowser is more powerful. Especially with the Grand Stars and we all know there are many of them and can be used in LIMITLESS combinations and power.

[@SirYelluzal]

What about the invincibility star? I'm not even a mario fan, yet I completely understood how he would overpower super neo metal sonic, don't these things make someone objectively invincible, I know it's a short period of time, but I can see bowser being able to eliminate the majority of the heavy hitters despite their respective feats before it wore off, is there a fair and objective argument for this?

[@TrixyTrixter]

I mean yes, but then comes the problem that things such as lava still instantly kills you even with the star power active. Which if you are objectively invincible should really act like water. And even then super forms in sonic pretty much do the exact same thing but overall better.

[@SirYelluzal]

@TrixyTrixter ah, alright that makes sense, man game logic is confusing, I'm not a fanboy of anything, so I wanted to point this out and be fair 💛👍

[@mastermario360]

@@TrixyTrixter When you die in lava that's a "game mechanic" not a in universe thing. So it wouldn't count. It's like falling in a pit or being crushed as Super Sonic. Obviously we don't consider those things because that's just for the sake of the video game not a anti feat for the character.

[@mastermario360]

@@SirYelluzal that's not how it works friend XD

[@SirYelluzal]

@mastermario360 I get that, I didn't do research bc I'm a sonic fan, but I'm not biased, I didn't see him bring up this point, so I brought it up for the sake of being respectful and fair 💛👍

[@cybergooninja004]

Im just going to put this here: I HATE people using "Oh tails said that while the two sonics run they restore time so theyre faster than time and existance" when... No... Tails is saying as they run through the levels they're restoring the timeline. If this statement was what everyone thinks it is there wouldn't be a damn game. Whats more you needed both sonics to do it so clearly there's a limit there. It's the exact same as Eggman's "Ill pay you back thousandfold" thats... That's not refering to any power that's him saying he's going to give sonic PAYBACK equal. If you're scaling like this bowser says he has a 4 digit IQ so therefor he's smarter than eggman and that's him actually saying it. Is it right? Of course not but you're not reading correctly so why should we?

[@Dd8899theking]

The outcome isn’t wrong. It’s perfectly right. They actually did something right for once and you guys are disagreeing with it. It’s like you guys actively don’t want them to do the right thing.

[@redmartin6237]

Yes and No. The outcome can realistically go either way. Most of the issues from the fight come from a misconception or two, DB equalized the stats to focus on raw hax so stuff like Speed was left out for it. The outcome they offered is valid, yes. But it's not definitive. Depending on how the information is taken into account, it can go either way. With the approach of the Debunk, yes Eggman wins. Equal Stats? Bowser Hax the f--k out of Eggman. And a large etcetera. Apologies in advance if I seem aggressive or the reply looks weird btw. English ain't my first language so I'm always working on ensuring I don't slip and cause a mess.

[@Dd8899theking]

@ bowser wins cus experience and how crazy and on hand all his shit is

[@redmartin6237]

​@Dd8899theking Yeap, and that's a valid view on this topic. As I said, with an equal stat like DB used, Bowser would just outhax the crap put of Eggman with the amlunt of stuff he has in hand. And that's a good outcome. But not definitive as a change or two can turn the tides. Still, it was a peak fight.

[@Dd8899theking]

@ fr peek bowser is just better not at being overpowered but just a better villain in general in my opinion

[@ΣπυροςΣτεφανιδης-δ3θ]

​@@Dd8899thekingthats just subjective lmao and what does being a better villain have to do with being more powerful and winning?

[@Just_A_Red_Guy]

I just realized, Miyamoto wasn't even trying to make the Mario universe seem powerful. Imagine if he DID The amount of stuff he can just say and could make sense to the Mario universe compared to the Sonic universe is insane. Bowser never could make a giant electric energy ball before and SUDDENLY he does it in Mario Galaxy and it's NORMAL. If Miyamoto locked in it's over for the sonic series

[@Crussly1]

idk if sonic team is tryna make their characters strong either, maybe the archie comics, but the games are just trying to make stories

[@FreeViewBlog]

@@Crussly1 Sonic is deliberately aimed at typical Shonen manga tropes, which includes astounding feats and ability growth. Mario is more like Popeye or Looney Tunes: if it's entertaining, it can happen.

[@TCBlueFire]

​@Crussly1 mario is kinda strong as he needs to be in terms of story. Comparing him to mario odyssey to mario galaxy is a big jump in power

[@jeanette9760]

Is Mario inspired by Sonic the hedgehog?

[@Crussly1]

@@jeanette9760 nah, sonic was made to compete with him though

[@Zombieworm98]

Mario Power scaling is weird. You have a guy supposedly capable of brute forcing UNIVERSE WIDE THREATS while also being able to die after gently tapping an angry mushroom. Sonic games put more thought into scaling, so when a character is OP they FEEL OP. Like Super Sonic. If it was just the OG games it would be a neat power up like the Star from Mario, but the story relevance and cut scene that use it makes Super Sonic feel as powerful as it's supposed to be. The closest Mario has to anything like that is the Lion Cat form from Mario 3D World DLC, which I haven't played but it looks powerful. I just think it's funny that games with stories that put less effort into power scaling end up having way more OP characters even if it doesn't make sense outside of the specific scenes where they are OP.

[@Shinolad]

i feel like the mechs just saying they are more menacing and powerful is just... a writing failure. i litterally cant figure out how that would be remotely true, considering sonic still beats him no matter what, in all technicalities if his mechs kept scaling more and more without much end, that would mean that at some point even sonic cant beat it realistically. idk man

[@Lilpoppa05]

Sonic gets more powerful every second he even says It himself and I'm pretty sure that happens with Mario as well because both villains are more powerful every game and they still beats them

[@insupportofjunhado]

I agree with you. I think it's been a writing failure since Fist Of The North Star decided Kenshiro just gets stronger as he fights BECAUSE. Power scaling isn't about the quality of the work, however, writing or otherwise. It's just about how powerful the characters are.

[@Shinolad]

@@Lilpoppa05 that's exactly WHY it's a writing failure. They never show sonic or mario actually making any actual strides in power that isn't entirely temporary, that or they have some type of tool to help them. Just saying they power up each time is just a cheap cop out to not explain how it's even remotely possible to beat them and even then that is pretty much never said.

[@Lilpoppa05]

@@Shinolad every show and series has power creeping it can't be stopped some is more absurd than others but it happens and sonic and Mario doesn't care about writing that much its entertainment fiction doesn't need to make sense but you could make that argument with more serious series

[@Shinolad]

@Lilpoppa05 but that's where your wrong Specifically sonic cares A LOT about their writing, a lot of it being hidden under surface level or outright being in actual books that don't pertain to the main Canon. Your argument that "every show and game does it" doesn't excuse anything, and it excentuates that you have a lack of a view of the greater picture.