Why Everyone Can Love Dukat, Actually

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[@davidschneider172]

Dukat is perhaps the best written villain in Trek. The performance by Marc Alamo is magnificent. Marc portrays Dukat as the character sees himself - the Hero of his own story.

[@rotimika]

He is

[@charlesmartin1972]

For most of the series, he practically epitomizes the "magnificent bastard" trope

[@gretchenjaenisch1826]

I loved Gul Dakat.

[@w41duvernay]

Just to think Alamo was a background villain in Total Recall movie.

[@lmyj8053]

Absolutely agree. Alamo hit gold in his portrayal of Dukat. I always hate when great villains are killed off. They are every bit as necessary as complex heroes. Sisko is my favorite captain. Keeping the villain alive for most of the series was a brilliant idea. Dukat’s position reminded me of the American position in Vietnam.

[@SidAlpha]

The greatest villains almost never see themselves as being evil. Not through lack of self-awareness, but out of a deeper and more complex motivation that is more often than not established within the realm of something that is laudable, understandable, and relatable. And Dukat was a GREAT villain.

[@tarvoc746]

Dukat was kinda both. His villany resulted from the perversion of genuine values *and* he lacked self-awareness to recognize it. I agree that he's a great villain though.

[@TheMarcodiator]

Garak and Dukat were always awesome to see on screen.

[@SidAlpha]

@@TheMarcodiator Andrew Robinson was MASTERFUL with Garak. He'll always remain my favorite Star Trek character of all time. But yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

[@TheMarcodiator]

@@SidAlpha YES! He's my favorite too! But in my mind, Andrew Robinson is Frank from Hellraiser... JESUS WEPT! To me, knowing that THAT is the actor behind the mask, well to me makes him even better. He's just so good, so intense. BTW, nice seeing you here, Sid!

[@tarvoc746]

@@ts757arse Well there isn't a hard disconnect between beliefs and actions. If you believe something about "black people", that's likely going to affect your actions, even though you're not necessarily aware of it, and sometimes even against your intentions. We're at the point where we can actually measure subconscious biases by now.

[@zodden01]

One of the best portrayals of a narcissistic personality I have seen. I enjoyed him when he was not "really" bad. One of my fav episodes is when he attacked a Klingon bird of prey with a freighter. He had Kira's help but that took guts. I also loved the episode where he and Sisko were stuck on that planet after they crashed there. A terrifying portrayal of mental illness where you never felt Sisko was safe.

[@lr4165]

S6E11 "Waltz" was one of DS9's best episodes. Dukat makes an impassioned speech proclaiming himself both victim and hero during the occupation, that collapses into an angry rant about his hatred of Bajorans. A chilling scene with great acting.

[@SnarkNSass]

Poor Dukat... I felt so bad for him when he broke... I rooted him on when I thought he was turning to the light and never stopped hoping he would...but expected nothing less than what he was.💚💚💚🖖🏻

[@dariawells7438]

“I never think of him as a villain. I guess it’s because I’ve played a lot of villains in my career - real bad people. And I don’t think Dukat is bad. I think he’s an opportunist, which I am too. And you probably are too. We all are opportunists when it comes right down to it. And I think Dukat’s a very shrewd businessman - takes the easiest, most convenient way all the time…we all do that sometimes. But in terms of being intentionally mean, which I think underlies villainy, I don’t think he is. I think he does what needs to be done. And certainly in combat - in love and war - there are no rules.” - Marc Alaimo, 1996

[@tbeller80]

And not long after this interview the writers made Dukat a one-dimensional psychopath. I didn't like the change, but at least the writers took a couple steps to get there. I heard back in the day that somebody up high was bothered that he had become too likeable. After all he used to be a planet-sized concentration camp commander. His professional ambitions being ruined at the very last minute plus his daughter's murder right in front of him drove him insane. His newfound crazy plus his need for admiration gave Sisko the chance to push his buttons in Waltz. I liked to see it as Sisko goading him into becoming axe crazy rather than it somehow being revealed he was always that way - which is what the dialogue treated it as.

[@ksiaa814]

I don't love or hate the character I respect the character. He opens up a different worldview, obviously most people wouldn't agree with it but it's giving us insight on how a certain faction thinks.

[@hellfish2309]

He is the most prominent Cardassian character, largely due to Alaimo’s screentime… that said, he’s kind of like an anti-Picard: Jean Luc rightly or wrongly commands himself and his show as the moral and ethical representative of Starfleet and the Federation even if they are both much less noble than he drives himself to be; Dukat represents a very realized, colonial supremacist Cardassia even though there are more noble Cardassians motivated by mutual understanding (Garak sometimes, Maritza, Gamoor, the 2 scientists on the wormhole antenna project)

[@randyhos7673]

@@hellfish2309 I don't see the supremacist in him at all as he had a Bajorans child that he loved very much. Aside from the part he took in the last season he really believed that he was doing what was best (in a Mike Pence sort of way)

[@hellfish2309]

@@randyhos7673 in ‘Waltz’ he’s explicitly asserting Cardassian superiority over the Bajorans, which quickly escalates into full on disregard for Bajoran life… before in seasons previous to that, he clearly condescends to the Bajoran culture (“from the beginning it was clear we were to superior race”, meaning Cardassian conquest and technological advancement meant he and they could demean Bajorans of their sovereignty) And to your point, the instant his Bajoran daughter asserts her self-governance, he’s ready to burn her from his life at least performatively; whether that’s to convince himself and/or her of the regard in which he expects to be held is open to interpretation

[@randyhos7673]

@@hellfish2309 True the second part of your comment is open for interpretation, but as for character to me everything that happen after the station was retaken (ie including what he said in Waltz has more to do with the writers and what they wanted to do with the Pah wraiths, otherwise I believe that he would have been leading the fight to liberate his home world in other words he would have been filling the role Damar did. Now I understand why you said what you did and my respond which I did not elaborate on is based on the fact that I believed that the character was turned into something else by the writers/show runners to fulfill there needs for the Par Wraiths ach

[@beth6787]

Due credit to Mark Alaimo for his superb acting skills.

[@davidplowman6149]

Dukat is a character more like a real person then almost any other fictional character. He represents how skilled the writers of DS9 were at character creation. Him explaining and justifying his actions feels like watching someone like Goering at Nuremberg. A more detached individual could find themselves agreeing with him. Of course, Sisko was not detached and what Dukat had done to the Bajorians always trumped whatever Dukat said. If he were a real person I would not admire or respect him, even if there are aspects of him that I do admire, simply because he did not embrace the conquest of Bajor being wrong and work to atone for it. Some actions are so atrocious they stain whatever good a person has done. Since he is fictional and did not really kill millions of people I do respect him. He was a brilliant character who’s actions and justifications feel like those of a real person with a real ethos.

[@OpeningSalvo]

Yea...what this guy said.

[@tarvoc746]

This is actually a case where fiction trumps reality in terms of depth. I've studied Nazi war criminals, and they're actually a good bit more trivial and almost cartoonish than Dukat ever was. Dukat is someone whom I could admire as an enemy. I can't say that I can find any admiration for those people.

[@Taladar2003]

I would argue that Londo and G'Kar from Babylon 5 were in that category as well because you understand why they do what they do and they develop as characters over the course of the series.

[@Aurora2097]

Oh yes! DS9 had really good writing! These guys knew what they were doing

[@glennwilliams2950]

So raping women, plotting to kill your daughter, enslaving people and on and on and on is what you believe a normal person would do. I feel sorry for the "normal" people you know.

[@italianviking80]

I do believe the writers did Dukat's character a disservice with the Paw-Wraith story arc.

[@chonconnor6144]

Agreed, they turned a complex, cunning and thoughtful villain into "baddie of the week". Siskos arc in season 7 was similarly disappointing, the whole emissary thing never went anywhere.

[@McClane4Ever.]

Agreed

[@480JD]

Funniest Dukat moment was when he regifted the dress to Zyal that he had sent to Kira after she returned it in a huff. Pulled a similar move when someone delivered a beautiful rose bouquet to the receptionist at my job right when she was about to leave on vacation and wouldn't be able to enjoy the flowers, gave her $5 because I had a date with my GF(at the time) that night.

[@FoxMonkey-xw5yf]

The river will provide.

[@mdlpatterson]

I really loved Dukat. He really exemplifies the idea that your the villain in someone else’s story. From his perspective he was alway a champion for truth, justice, and the Cardasian way. That makes for a great villain.

[@randyhos7673]

Vaderst

[@atoll2453]

The way he gets distracted by Ziyal, Sisko, and his own ego.....that's not the way of *The Never Ending Sacrifice*

[@borg111]

Dukat, like many characters on DS9 was well written. There were moments when you sympathized with him: When he showed love for his daughter, when he fought the Klingon invasion of his home in a freighter, and when he worked with Sisko to save the Detapa council are a few examples. There were plenty of moments when you wished him dead - just about everything else he did. I found him to be a well balanced villain that kept you guessing what his next move would be.

[@shadowofhawk55]

"But to look a man in the eye, knowing his face will haunt you for the rest of your life, now that takes a stomach, far stronger than you'll ever have," I am fairly sure that is a Dukat quote and I cannot find any clips of him saying it. And I love it.

[@EvilFookaire]

"Anyone can blow up a ship. Ha! But to look your enemy in the eye, knowing you'll remember his face for the rest of your life, now that takes... a stomach, much stronger than you'll ever have." - Gul Dukat. DS9 episode "The Maquis, part II" (found the quote and episode on IMDB a while ago, haven't found a good enough clip myself yet but there has to be one out there).

[@shadowofhawk55]

@@EvilFookaire Thanks

[@leeannasloan2292]

​@@EvilFookaire thank you for finding that out.

[@leeannasloan2292]

The thing about dukat is that I think he could blow up a ship without the blink of an eye, and also look whoever in the eye and kill them and never let it show.

[@Drdirkjackson]

Are we forgetting that Sisko used biogenic weapons against federation citizens and assassinated a Romulan official to bring them into the war? I think he succumbed to the darker elements of Federation ideology.

[@mrandquist]

First of all, the citizens escaped before anyone died and it was Garek who assassinated the Romulan official. Sisko just looked the other way. Personally if I were leading a nation or planet I would be like Dukat. Like Odo said, "Say what you will about their methods, but they are efficient."

[@patrickradcliffe3837]

Sisko made it personal. There is no other way to put it when he was pursuing Eddington.

[@Drdirkjackson]

@@patrickradcliffe3837 That makes it even worse, he literally rendered an entire planet uninhabitable. Additionally, he suffered no punishment from his superiors. Basically the Federation is ok with war crimes against it's citizens because they oppose Federation's piss poor foreign policy. Imagine if a Navy commander released poison into your city that would kill everyone in a matter of hours if you didn't give up a single criminal and that person went unpunished. Is that a free and just society?

[@patrickradcliffe3837]

@@Drdirkjackson I'm supposing here that Starfleet looked at as removing a Marquis base of operation and denies it too the Cardassian's to use either. There was no indigenous sentient life there. From a military point of view it makes strategic sense, and that would be why Sisko wasn't charged.

[@Drdirkjackson]

@@patrickradcliffe3837 Sure, using chemical weapons on civilians always has a justifiable military application.....

[@CaraBolsaSTUDIOS]

MAYBE HE IS A MONSTER, BUT IS THE BEST MONSTER OF TREK

[@randyhos7673]

To me he is the only thing in Trek to come close to Vader

[@stephenknizek2651]

Who doesn’t love Dukat? He was the secret first choice of the Wormhole Aliens, but he probably declined because it would take him away from his beloved Cardassia. And who would see a Dukat statue in the wormhole?

[@brokeneyes6615]

Dukat is the Anti-Emissary.

[@atoll2453]

Wouldn't they pick someone like Legate Ghemor? or perhaps they mistook him for Gul Macet?

[@arcticfox3243]

I love dukat he was a awesome character that when the writers stayed in character with him.

[@jamp12008]

Dukat is a great character. I want him back

[@ChrisMWalker]

"Why Everyone Can Love Dukat, Actually" - "...Actually" shots fired at Steve Shives?

[@spawnofmelkor]

This was very clearly leveled at Steve Shives.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

Remember when Kirk, Scotty, and McCoy are sitting at the table complementing the genius of Khan Singh and Spock was woke upset? Even Gene knew this whole question is silly 50 years ago.

[@arbjbornk]

I can imagine that if a limited series about Khan, in his rise power and during the Eugenics Wars, that Khan and Dukat would be very similar characters. KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh. SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East. MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown. SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one. KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring. SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless. SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule. SPOCK: And as little freedom. MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked. SPOCK: Gentlemen. KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.

[@atoll2453]

Like sports teams, you can admire the villains' smarts, strengths, etc. as long as you remember they are on the wrong side......and to go out and beat them

[@JohnNathanShopper]

@@arbjbornk Yeaaaah!

[@tarvoc746]

"There were no massacres under his rule" gets a huge "Press Xto doubt" stamp from me btw. It sounds a bit *too* much like "didn't do anything wrong". Very few dictators rule _completely_ without atrocities. Particularly if they hold an ideology of genetic supremacism like Kahn did.

[@_Muzolf]

@@tarvoc746 Heck, most democratic nations cannot claim to never have fought a war or have not been part of a few genocides somewhere, those that can are usually either micronations or small young ones, that barely existed for a century.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

I just love that he said “friends were far and in between” just to get me to post a comment correctly him. Well played

[@HappyCodingZX]

He's really a nasty piece of work, and very well written. Tremendously enjoyable for those of us that look for the good in people. You keep hoping he is going to redeem himself, and then he lets you down time and again, which is fun because it's fiction. He's charming and intelligent, yes, but ultimately so incredibly narcissistic that he believes his own hype. But I don't agree that he is a just man. His actions say far more about him than his words in that regard, and on that basis he absolutely isn't just. But he absolutely thinks that he is, and that's what makes him interesting. He's the JR Ewing of DS9.

[@sirisaxmanable]

Dukat is one of my favorite characters in fiction, hero or villain. He's just so damn nuanced! If that makes me a nazi, guess I'm a nazi.

[@TheRyujinLP]

Getting called a Nazi these days is like getting called a racist. It's just a way for leftists to vilify you for dearing not to fall lock step with their world view.

[@Its__Good]

I'm sure that there are many Nazi leaders who held similar 'positive' characteristics to Dukat. Almost all of them are also complicit to one degree or another in a holocaust. As is Dukat. None of them can ever be 'redeemed' until they have faced justice for their crimes.

[@sirisaxmanable]

@@Its__Good You know Dukat is a fictional character, right?

[@sirisaxmanable]

@@TheRyujinLP Ironically I consider myself a leftist, but I guess nuance is too hard for many folks, regardless of their political beliefs.

[@mdlpatterson]

“You go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company”- Mark Twain

[@madrabbit9007]

I've said this before, what makes a great villain is when they believe they are the hero of the story and Dukat was just that (at least until the Pa Wraiths turned him into a mustache twirling bad guy). The things he did, he did for the sake of his people including inviting the Dominion in. I respect him like I respect Putin, neither are good guys but both seek the betterment of their people.

[@the220kid]

Dilated definitely saw himself as the hero in his story. Exceptional character.

[@TheTobaccoman]

This is what we all needed. Thanks for the work on this. There is a difference between respecting a mans noble aspects while also understanding he is deeply flawed. It’s that kind of tragic view that makes him so relatable in the end. He’s driven , smart and sometimes brutal but not all his traits are awful. Who hasn’t among us had great dreams and drives and fall awful short ? You can relate to a flawed person who seemed to want to be better even in the wrong ways. If you can’t see a man for the total of his character rather than simply the defect within him, that is the real tragedy. The only way you can remove yourself from evil is to understand it and understand that line between good and evil can be very small sometimes. Much like the line between sane and insane. He’s a man worthy of some level of respect and heavy levels of disdain and pity at the same time. Given another life , another time, he could have been the hero he wanted to be but his own inner flaws doomed him in the end. He’s not a clear cut dark evil and that’s why it’s so easy for some to hate him, he’s not just simply an evil guy he’s a reminder life isn’t that simple and for some that is intolerable indeed as they need their clear cut good and bad. Just my thoughts of course.

[@frocurl]

Ducat... love this guy! I get a big smile seeing him on screen. My favorite villian in any show in any universe of all time! Idk y but I can't help but love this guy!!!

[@AzathothXy]

Love Dukat. Marc Alaimo is a great actor.

[@jd190d]

Probably one of the best story arcs in any series. He hits so many highs and lows, changes with the circumstances continually when he perceives an advantage and even acts honorably a few times. With a lesser actor he would not have been nearly as compelling so Marc Alaimo deserves credit for this incredible and magnetic performance.

[@thelifedyslexic]

Dukat got more character development than certain main characters in other series. He is complex, compelling and oozes charisma. You don't have to like him as a character to enjoy watching him as a villain.

[@mikehendon7327]

I mean, per interviews with the writing team and actor... The actor wanted Dukat to have his full redemption arc. And even before that, he saw his character not so much as a villain, as the friend of the DS9 crew...even one of the crew, in his own right. The actor wanted Dukat, desperately, to be a good person, and this comes through in his performance: Dukat views himself relative to the rest of the Cardassian military (who would likely have just glassed Bajor from orbit), and feels he is, at his core, a good person and a hero to everyone. In the words of his writers, "Hitler loved his dog". They wanted to capture that, in its entirety, the concept that even history's most bloody-handed dictators and butchers...at the end of the day, they still kiss their kids goodnight, write cute love letters and do the same things anyone else would...because people aren't monotonal monsters. Unless someone is an abject sociopath, they just don't work that way. The reason we refuse to acknowledge these things, is because it's profoundly easier to view our enemies as straw-men. Monsters. Creatures. THINGS. Some untinkable "other". Dukat's writing and portrayal come together to challenge this, perfectly. The lesson he exists to teach us: "look at the person you hate most, in life. Now consider this, they are still a PERSON."

[@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain]

Last part of your second paragraph reminds me of the speech from the deathwalker episode of B5 "you and the rest of your kind think we are monsters and you could never do what we did....."

[@GrandAdmThrawn]

Great written character combined with great actor playing that character. Every episode with him is a superb one imho.

[@HontasFarmer80]

Hmm _actually_ this video looks like a better version of a take that was made years back. Kinda Ironic that saying Dukat is a hero of his own story gets one cancelled now.

[@LoreReloaded]

Mine or someone else?

[@michaeljackson5938]

@@LoreReloaded Cardassian Way😊👍 Definitely Not the Kardashians Way 🤔😒😢🤢🤦‍♀️

[@sigmasquadleader]

Actually what.

[@darrenrenna]

Dukat and Garak were arguably two of the best written characters on that show!

[@thedarklordrevan]

He’s a great villain because he believes he’s the hero and that the ends justifies the means.

[@Liopleurodon]

I know it's somewhat problematic to compare pure fictional chracters to historical ones... but this reminds me just to much about the discussion about how to portray Nazis, even up to Hitler himself in media, especially in movies or anything not documentary. I see myself on the side that would encorage to show those people as the human beings they have been, with values and flaws and not somekind of pure evil demonic beings that came upon us like a plague. People like Hitler, Stalin or Mao came to power because they were compelling, because people saw something in them worth to strive for... thats what made them so dangerous. Hitler was a movie fan, the man had all Charlie Chaplin movies... Stalin was heartbroken when his daughter fled to the US (who doesn't see Dukat here)... so having a "likeable" villian, isn't something bad, it's the best thing to teach all of us the vigilance Picard is talking about in "Drumhead"

[@Taladar2003]

Agreed. The "this can't happen here because we are not evil" mindset is very dangerous. Analysing how these events happened is important, and on a level that is a bit abstract too. The issue is not genocide of the Jews, the issue is genocide of any group in the population that is demonized and blamed for all of society's problems. The issue is not invading Poland or France, the issue are offensive wars in general. The issue is not exactly the Nazi propaganda but any propaganda used to control people,... Fiction can help us gain that distance from the concrete real world events.

[@TS10852]

Hitler is just the Satan of modern society's religion, and you cant reason with religious nuts.

[@kyraevermoon5544]

Dukat and Sisko have very much similar values. They are dark reflections of each other, Sisko being the Yin to Dukat's Yang. Dukat is mostly evil with that spark of goodness that makes him respectable and an ally at times, and Sisko is mostly good, with that spark of evil that allows him to do things like commit war crimes, or murder romulans.

[@paradoxchild01]

Sisko was Dukat’s bane. He was everything dukat wanted to be. His last try was in Covenant but yet again his PrUt got in the way.

[@Deamon93IT]

The big Cardassian characters (Dukat, Damar and Garek) are probably some of the best ever made in Star Trek: all have values which, in principle, one can agree on but bring those values to extremes. A good example, relevant to Dukat, is how he used the value of family against a politician by de facto kidnapping his son and have him deposited at an orphanage. At the same time, when the Maquis took the Defiant and went for Cardassian space, he genuinely regretted not being at his son's birthday and how he would have seen the event. Love may not be the exact word but DS9 is great also because of him

[@marktaylor6491]

Dukat is just a great villain, simple as. And like so many of his ilk, to borrow the words of Charles Dance. 'He is a man of strong principles, just not the principles of you or I'. Hence he is convinced that he is the hero of his own narrative, thus giving him that all important sincerity. Now combine it with the prerequisite intelligence and charisma, and you have someone truly exceptional.

[@tarvoc746]

Okay, there are a bunch of aspects of this take that are bad or at best lukewarm. So let's get into it. First of all, I'm on the left, I love Dukat as a character and I have never in my life heard anyone say that that makes me a Nazi. Then again, that's not quite the same as wanting to _imitate_ Dukat as a role model. I don't think that makes you a Nazi either, but I do think there is something fundamentally wrong with that idea, and I'll get into what that is in a moment - so I do see why people would have issues with that. You correctly say that Sisko and Dukat are "the same". These two characters were constructed strictly parallel to each other: They have similar vitas, their respective assignments on Deep Space Nine are strictly parallel, they have similar personalities in a way (ENFJ for those who are into Myers-Briggs), and they, yes, also hold similar values. In fact, these values can even get perverted in similar ways, as In The Pale Moonlight or For The Uniform. Why is that? _Because_ they're set up as foils for each other. In fact, that's the reason why they didn't set up Damar as a foil for Dukat: Because Dukat was already Sisko's foil. While you point out this parallelism correctly, what you don't seem to realize is that this fact directly goes against the point you're going to make: If Sisko and Dukat are parallels and hold very similar values, but Dukat is the more "perverted" (also as we will see soon in a literal sense) version, why would you choose Dukat as a role model *over* Sisko? That sorta-kinda only makes sense if there's something about Dukat's _perversions_ that attracts you. I'm not saying that makes you a Nazi, but it is something you should think about. As for Dukat's values, it should be pointed out how asymmetrically they're structured (which is actually exactly what _sets him apart_ from Sisko). Take family and nationalism, for example. You rightly pointed out that it's all about appearances for him, and that should actually be a red flag - because seeing moral values as mere matters of appearance is actually a textbook trait of pathological narcissism. It's shown over and over again that he values family and nationality _as extensions of himself_ and will discard them or sell them out as soon as he can't see them as extensions of himself anymore. It's the same asymmetry with loyality. For him, loyality essentially means two different things, depending on whether he's talking about his own loyalty or the loyalty of others. Loyalty of others towards him means absolute blind obedience, and he will see even the slightest bit of doubt or reservation as a sign of disloyalty. On the other hand, his own "loyalty" to others never extends beyond not discarding someone for as long as they're useful to him. Ziyal is arguably _a bit_ of an exception, but even in her case, it's crystal clear that he wanted to get her to function by his parameters. He simply always demands infinitely more from others than he's actually willing to give, and even his fellow Cardassians know it and behave towards him accordingly. And ultimately, it's the same with his warped sense of justice. The right answer to his "I killed one Bajoran for every murdered Cardassian, and that's justice!" line is "Did you also kill one Cardassian for every Bajoran who died in the camps or in forced labor, or simply from starvation?" The answer to that is of course No. And while that's not quite justice either, it would at least have been closer to it than _his_ version. Is Dukat a narcissist? He is shown time and time again as displaying an extreme desire to to be adored, if not outright worshipped, and he'll go to any lengths to achieve that goal. In fact, given his former position on Deep Space Nine and his role in the occupation, his desire for subservient Bajoran girls to worship him is more than just creepy, it's downright rapey. As I said, I love Dukat, but I love him as a _villain,_ because that's what he is. But when it comes to the question of imitation and choosing role models, Sisko displays pretty much exactly the same values with far less baggage, so once again, why not choose him over Dukat? Not that imitation is an overly good model for learning ethics in the first place, but that's a whole other discussion.

[@Peaceforall20111]

Your analyses are awesome. And a very calming narration voice. I like how you stick by your truths and base them on valid reasons. Keep it up

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

A great rundown, as always. I compliment you, Sir !!!!

[@leeannasloan2292]

I am reminded of the Maya Angelou quote "when someone shows you who they are, believe them." Whenever you thought dukat would change...

[@LMG1792]

Great vid. Always enjoyed when Dukat was on screen.

[@MochaKimono]

Dukat is one of my favorite kinds of villains. Chillingly self-assured, charismatic, and callous in the pursuit of his goals and ideals. Great sort to have in your corner, and a nightmare if he's not, because of the weight he can throw around, and he knows it, and is infuriatingly smug about it. The way he calculates every interaction and looks down on everyone like mere ants at his picnic is just delectable as a viewing experience. I'd hate his guts if he were a real person for all the same reasons, but as a CHARACTER? Wonderful material.

[@buddy14522]

Fantastic video!

[@notmegaming9038]

Dukat is a true mirror image antagonist just without the mustache.

[@brianlips8346]

Thanks for another great video good take on the subject

[@jeffreysalgado4472]

Such a well constructed character!!

[@chonconnor6144]

Dukat was the greatest TV villain in all of science fiction. His monologs are in a class by themselves.

[@nicholasmazzei6126]

Such a great analysis!

[@Hawkeye26]

If nothing else, Dukat is a very well-written and fleshed out character and amazingly performed by Marc Alaimo, the prime mold upon which Cardassian costume/make-up design is based.

[@toddfraser3353]

The scene with Edington I never took it as Sisko showing off his failings, but to mix universes, Shatner it up to Edington to convince Edington that Sisko was going off the rails in order to get his way. He had to play the bad guy because that is how Edington was seeing him.

[@IRMentat]

Sisko said as much directly, eddington saw himself as the hero in a classic tale, small vs big, freedom fighter versus singularly oppressive force. Sisko played into it, baited out Eddington and committed a warcrime in the process to avoid a war that starfleet had no interest nor intent to take part in. It's why he seemingly suffered no consequences for irradiating a planet. nil-minimal loss of life, he maintained the peace, one planet was trades for another between aggrieved parties and he captured the terrorist ringleader with the connections tactics and tech to cause major issues in that region. Starfleet has sacrificed officers ships colonies outposts and protectorates over much less serious regional threats. Peace at any cost, until there is no path to peace that remains, that's basically the federation mantra (from kirk, to picard, to janeway to sisko to archer, the pattern has been open for all to see for every notable series of trek that ever existed).

[@tarvoc746]

Playing into the delusions of a psychotic might actually not be the best of ideas Sisko ever had...

[@axepagode33626]

Dukat could have solve his Ziyal problem with some cosmetic surgery. If they could turn Kira into a Cardassian, they could make Ziyal look completely like a Cardassian.

[@LucianLacroix]

Great breakdown

[@promnightdumpsterbaby9553]

Dukat did SOME good. He had good intentions,even if he had selfish alterior motives. He had a family to consider and he was also a patriot. He was also,actually,a good leader.

[@jediguy634]

Great stuff Lore! Wouldn't mind seeing these kinds of breakdowns with other ST "Villains"

[@kzbay1685]

Do the Pah wraiths enhance his core beliefs or corrupt them?

[@totemictoad4691]

they really derail him, wraithdukat isnt the same person he was, arguably Ziyal's death broke him and the Wraiths exploit that to 'indoctrinate him'

[@DeathScepter]

so the Pah Wraiths are the Reapers of Star Trek

[@randyhos7673]

I think that was more the writers...the character did not believe in mass genocide

[@bentencho]

Prior to the whole pah-wraith arc... he was relatively a very moderate by Cardassian standards. He operated within the standards of Cardassian society, and from that point of view, he was a great man. If you view from the Federation standard, he may be viewed as an oppressor.... but Romulans and Klingons would probably view Dukat did not do anything excessive. Him being Prefect of Bajor , he was much lighter in his approach than his predecessors. He improved working conditions, reducing child labour, increase food, etc. Of course many horrendous things will still committed... but if it is all about relativity, he was more benevolent than what other Cardassians would have done. Just keep in mind... he was only working within the boundaries that was afforded to him by his superiors. So with the amount of power he did wield, he did his best. Everything he has done was to protect his family and to protect Cardassia... like every good Cardassian has done before and what any good Cardassian will continue to do. From a non-Federation perspective... he's a hero.

[@colinl992]

On Bajor he was practically a progressive

[@lvluptoaverage52]

Great video.

[@marinuswillett6147]

Understanding why bad people do bad things is an important aspect of preventing those things from happening again. You don't have to approve of somebody's actions to empathize with them. In fact, learning to empathize with terrible people can help us better understand ways of preventing others from following the same paths.

[@sugarsammy7209]

I love Dukat, easily my favorite character of all trek

[@jeffmiller5982]

I like Dukat, he was an awesomely written character. To hell with what other people think.

[@jwm655]

I love Dukat

[@brokeneyes6615]

I dig your wearing q science division shirt in your ad, nice touch of detail.

[@ViroVV]

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb" - Lord Helmet

[@highcommand4786]

Dukat is fascinating character and I'd argue the best from any Trek series. I think what makes him such a good villain is that he never saw himself as such having created his own mental reality where he was a great hero baffled by anyone who disagreed!

[@datnoob4394]

In the words of Sisko: "that is why you are NOT an evil man"

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

If LucasFilm ever decides to adapt any of Tim Zahn's _Thrawn_ novels or just introduce the character of Grand Admiral Thrawn into the live action Star Wars universe, they HAVE to give the role to Marc Alaimo.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

They practically are on the verge of that already, with the Mandalorian and Ashoka series, and perhaps more to come, @Bernard Gilbert . Though it looks like Lars Mikkelsen will get the live action gig, for him.

[@Animalover205]

Another Bonus thing about Dukat, and one thing that I respect about him. He always sought a path that required the least amount of bloodshed. He never advocated wanted killing and always went out of his way when he could to avoid it.

[@onehairybuddha]

One cannot dominate the dead.

[@Zero8880]

Dukat was more of a Mussolini than a Hitler. Now the Female Changeling, she was a Hitler. At the end of the day, Dukat's core values was to himself. The way he was written was as a true narcissist that could justify every deed to himself as right, and placed an incredible amount of importance on what others thought of him. He wasn't afraid to switch sides in a heartbeat if he thought it would benefit him. The biggest difference between Dukat and Sisko was shown both on and off screen. When the first Weyoun we met spoke with Sisko, he offered him complete control of the Federation or Alpha Quadrant under the Dominon banner if he switched allegiances, Sisko immediately denied the offer. Now I can only suspect that the next Weyoun offered Dukat the exact same offer, and Dukat took it immediately. I know both men's situations were very different, but even if Sisko were in the same shoes as Dukat at the time, I couldn't see him accepting the offer.

[@jamesneese7663]

There is an important issue though: it is okay to "love" and analyze - in a clinical way - the villainy of characters like Gul Dukat, Alfred Bester from B5, Londo Mollari from b5, Khan Noonan Singh, Darth Vader, Sheev Palpatine, Baron Vladimar Harkkonen, etc BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT REAL. That's the thing, the moment "real life" or parallels to real events comes in, everything goes down the drain as technical issues become emotional/historial/justice ones. One can "love" the Cardassians, The Empire, The Harkonnens, the Centauri Republic since none of it is real and therefore it doesn't matter, but that can never happen the moment real life gets brought into the conversation because inevitable Godwin's Law happens and discussion immediately plunges into hell.

[@jjkrayenhagen]

Even real life has aspects of this. Think of the Spartans and how they are viewed today. But also remember the fact that they treated the Helots incredibly oppressively. Nazi iconography is viewed in eastern Asia about the same way we view the Japanese rising sun flag and vice versa. Look at the way notorious criminals are romanticized. Socialist dictators too. The Nazi stigma mainly comes from the fact that they are a boogeyman used by the left to control the narrative. While they were certainly evil, they aren't the exclusive evil of human history.

[@jaspr1999]

I can't see how folks dislike Dukat. Of all the villains in Trek, not one is as nuanced, manipulative, conniving, or as loving (of his daughter, his world, and his titles). Trek always needed villains that were well developed. I mean, the Borg are terrifying but there really is nothing to make them anything more than what they are. With Dukat, you get to see his growth, change, and his views on why he does what he does. To borrow a phrase that fits Dukat (and Sisko) to a tee it's, "...be a hero long enough to become the villain" Sisko made a conscious choice to become a villain, Dukat made the same choice but it was subconscious and he never pulled back to look at himself to see it, and that is the massive divide and difference between Sisco and Dukat.

[@ianday5604]

Q. Q is that Villian. Picard: "When we First encountered you, you put us on trial for the Crimes of Humanity" Q: "Careful, Juries still out on that one Picard"

[@Mandolatron]

So much more was possible. I wish the writers had not unhinged him so much in Season 7.

[@Fatalroadie]

Dukat is one of my favorite trek villans

[@chrisairgood310]

Great video. He is a complex character as all are on ds9 that is why it's my favorite show behind original series .

[@gregculverwell]

Yes one of the greatest characters ever. He was a one man emotional roller-coaster. On moment you were rooting for him, the next you wanted him to burn & vice versa.

[@sneakyking]

He was the most genuine character

[@pauloz9359]

of course people like Dukat. Dukat is tremendously likeable - charming, witty, an objectively better father than Worf, and always (seemingly) willing to let bygones be bygones and work with his former adversaries (when it suits his interests, at least.) Even after he goes mad and becomes the Emissary of the Pah'wraiths, he still has enough charm and charisma to make Kai Winn like him a lot. But should we seek to emulate him? Well, it seems there's always a market for duplicitous, self-seeking charmers in this world, it's hard to argue they have made the world a better place, and certainly Dukat's actions cause only misery and suffering for those he claims to be helping (the Bajorans, the Cardassian people, the Pah'wraith cultists, Kai Winn etc). So, I'd have to say that while we may like Dukat, under no circumstances should we try to be like him. Plus, Major Kira always hates him, and who wants to disagree with Kira?

[@imintheraindripdripdrop]

I would argue that the first and positive form of nationalism you described could be better understood as patriotism. To my knowledge there is no dual nature to nationalism, where one incarnation is good, and the other bad. And while I agree that nationalism is not definitively evil. It is routinely used to justify many evil acts, ideas, and ideals.

[@ricefeild3946]

One of the finest Actors on the show...i think we all liked and loathed him at the same time.

[@nutwatch1854]

You can tell it's 2021 when the word "toxic" is now every third adjective in your vocabulary.

[@CynthiaWarren]

I agree with your assessment of Dukat. His core values aren't necessarily evil. It was his innate personality that made him incapable of moving past the negative aspects of his values. The man is a narcissist, so his loyalty turned out to be most strongly toward himself. Which is why he put his revenge against Sisko ahead of what was best for Cardassia. Emulating Dukat's core values doesn't make a person inherently evil. It demonstrates an understanding of the positive aspects of those values.

[@literatiglee]

Wow, this analysis was incredibly well thought out and well-written. Thanks for sharing this -- it helped me understand WHY I tended to like the guy (until he became a cartoon villain, which is too bad). Yes, he was a great villain but moreover, he was a well-rounded character for whom I felt terrible when his daughter was murdered right before his eyes. :(

[@traviswebb7585]

I think Dukat was the perfect villain. Like Khan there are circumstances involved. That is good story telling of which I believe DS9 has an abundance of.

[@zachjones6944]

Gul Dukat was was a soldier for his people. There is nothing wrong with that.

[@NorCalMtnBiker86]

FOR CARDASSIA!!!

[@claymorejohnston]

Firstly, I agree that Guk Dukat is Star Trek's greatest villain and easily in the top ten of greatest characters. Beautifully well written and perfectly acted. I have to disagree that he's at all respectable or emulatable because Dukat is, at his core a shockingly pathetic man. There is no value that you mentioned that Dukat doesn't sacrifice to the altar of his ego. He sells his country to the Dominion for personal power. His first instinct on seeing his daughter is to kill her because he knows her existence will hurt his career. Kira shames him into doing the right thing but later, when Ziyal doesn't go with him to Cardassia without an explanation he abandons her and proceeds with his plan to *blow up Bajor's sun*. Also, his need for constant adulation is his greatest foe, not Sisko. Dukat seems legitimately offended that Sisko doesn't consider him a friend or that no one built a statue to him on Bajor. Even when he gets cult who reveres him on a replica of Terok Nor he ruins it by taking advantage of a married Bajoran. He even needs his sex slaves to see him as a poor misunderstood dear who's just trying his best. Contrast this with Sisko. In the (fantastic) episode The Visitor when Sisko sees how much Jake basically dedicated his life to saving his father, Sisko is horrified that Jake didn't move on and live his own life. Throughout the series, Sisko is a loving and understanding father who would not only die for Jake but is perfectly happy with Jake not following in his footsteps as long as he's happy. Hardly an egomaniac. In the episode Homefront, Sisko stops a coup on earth by standing up to his mentor and superior officer. His sense of loyalty to the ideals of Starfleet is greater than his loyalty to rank or personality. Sisko also respects and listens to his wife, son and subordinates. Dukat would only do this until they disagreed with him. Dukat is a great foil to Sisko in that Sisko is the kind of man Dukat tells himself he is. For Dukat, however there is no principle or ideal more important to him than his ego or even his immediate sexual gratification. Secondly, did Lindsey Ellis actually give an opinion on Gul Dukat or even Star Trek in general? If so I would unironically like to see it. I spend a lot of time on the space between lefty politics and Trek quite a bit and I have never heard anyone say that if you like Gul Dukat you're a bad person or anything like that. This sounds like the time honored conservative practice of making up a leftist on Twitter so you can get mad at them.

[@capybara2671]

How dare you like space nazi Gul Dukat. I'm gonna dress as Darth Vader for Halloween.

[@IRMentat]

capable, intelligent, charismatic, driven, flexible, planned thoroughly enough that under (non plot-character related) most circumstances would have borne many more victories and positive (for him) outcomes than ever actually happened. Foil to Sisko, honing block for Kiras tactical thinking, an expectant manager to Odo and rising star for his loyal subordinates to use as a guide and platform to higher stations of trust/authority. There's a lot to admire about the character beneath the surface level and half-assed "he's evil, hate him unconditionally" slapdash writing presented as Dukats initial "character" (no better than the TNG portrayal of ferengi vs Armin Shimerman bringing quark to life before the audiences eyes in DS9) and that's all a credit to the talent of Marc Alaimo and his infusing of heroic qualities in a flawed, decisive, proud and reflective character (most of his falls from grace were externally caused, umbrage and a degree of arrogance is to be expected when you line up all the pieces and "plot" demands that you fail regardless) within each role/vocation he found himself he was harsh but followed the duties the role asked of him mostly without excess (at least until a path upward/forward became available, then he got ambitious/bold/flexible). No idea why you decided to throw a bunch of "maybe people like him because it lets them avoid their own evil impulses" (projection?) nonsense in there at the end when the rest was well structured and fairly balanced.

[@brokeneyes6615]

“I believe charismatic leaders should come with a warning stamped on their foreheads that reads, ‘warning, may be hazardous to your health.’” -Frank Herbert.

[@uttermanbo]

Dukat was in love with his heritage. He bought into everything Cardassia, and did whatever he could to further and expand their power. He wasn't evil, he walked the long path to being a mustache twirling villain in the finale. He was in love with a mistress that had several secrets. The Obsidian Order, rebellion, and his own central government. He lost his way, saw a way to find it again in genocide, Dominion, and lastly wraiths. He surgically altered himself to look like a Bajoran. That would be like Himmler posing as a Jewish citizen to get back on path. In the end he ended the series in the same way he began it. Deadlocked with Sisko in a fight of wills to see who would bend at the knee. He got Sisko to bend, but ultimately he chose the losing side like he always did. Cardaissians lost, Dominion lost, and the wraiths lost. Sisko swept the series, not because he was 100 percent correct. But because in the end, he knew what he had to do. No matter the personal sacrifice. Great stories let the viewer see both sides. Choose your side. Not everything is straight good or evil. This isn't Star Wars where the Sith proudly flaunt the dark side.

[@PsymonBeesley]

Great video.. I like Dukat, I’ve always felt he’s the type of character that while I don’t always agree with his actions I can respect the values that drive him. As this video so brilliantly shows it’s Dukats perversion of these values that is the problem and not the values themselves.

[@billybegood466]

Dukat was the best god damn villain since Handsome Jack.

[@krzosu]

Ducat as a character was awesomely written - and yes he would harm Jake in a blink of an eye if that would yield him some advantage. I would like to think he wouldnt but i know he would. He was utterly rutheless even when he saw an opportunity. a good example was when the station was under lockdown due to the couner insurgency program - he was willing to let them all die - even if it wouldnt bring him anything directly and he was willing to use their lives as barganing chips

[@ikp4success]

he just wanted a statue on Bajor.

[@LoreReloaded]

And didn’t get one !

[@GnosticAtheist]

I have no problems with evil if its not destroying me or taking away my freedom. Evil is subjective, except their fashion sense, its just objectively superior in every way.

[@Cursedzeba]

Honestly can you imagine if they found logs and recordings that proved his story, that he tried to be gentle when he took control of Bajor, that he did try to be lenient but as more and more pressure was put on him he went darker and darker into the monster he was by the end. How shaken would that make Kira to find that he was trying to go easy on them and their own exploitation of that made things worse. Its not saying they should have given up by any means but it also give a interesting conflict to how Dukat as a person was portrayed and how he tried to be

[@rede2right]

I think Dukat was great character. To everyone watching the story he would be classified as Lawful evil. But within the story the Cardassian people most likely looked to him as a leader and hero. Anyone outside of that who did not share the social values of the Cardassians would view otherwise.

[@Namelesswhirl]

Gul Dukat loved the woman of Bajor, and treated them well.