On Trial : Riker to blame for Enterprise D Destruction?

What's up Lore Masters,
I decided to bring back the On Trial Series... What do you think of Riker? Was he guilty?
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[@hiddentrailvideo6992]

Spot made it and thats all that matters.

[@Phoenixesper1]

Yes Spot #8 made it.

[@StephenGillie]

That means Spot has one life to live.

[@RichO1701e]

male spot or female spot?

[@noname_atall]

@@RichO1701e what ? while i, as a native portuguese speaker, find the name spot very unfitting for a female being, everytime the gender of spot was mentioned or understood by dialogue, it was female.

[@davidhughes5125]

The galaxy class's designers are to blame.

[@Illithar]

Bad writing. Bad writing is responsible for the Enterprise D's destruction.

[@Revkor]

I call it Plot death..they wanted her to die no matter how unlikely this result is. If the sisters still had their Vorcha then beleiveable.

[@BlazingOwnager]

The sad part is they could have done little things, minor tweaks, to make it work. Like do something to take out power to the weapons entirely, hence the need to exploit an old ship, etc.

[@Revkor]

@@BlazingOwnager yeah..executing was dumb.

[@BNuts]

It's called Plot-Induced Stupidity, or POS. They needed to make the crash landing of the primary hull happen, by any mans necessary. Including dumbing down the entire bridge crew. Isn't this how every _Enterprise_ gets severely damaged or destroyed? That said, the Sovereign-class design is much improved over the Galaxy-class, which requires additional support stands to sit straight.

[@Revkor]

@@BNuts ah no. Original Enterprise was in a situation that left her weaken. she was heavily automated and that was her undoing. The C had 4 to 1 odds agasint her so it's just the D

[@luminaire4946]

Once the enterprise's plot armor was removed the ship was rendered helpless

[@ageofgreen99]

Luminaire The plot armor is the only shields that counts. Lol

[@luminaire4946]

@@ageofgreen99 it's why the ship lasted seven years. But all good things come to an end.

[@beaney56]

That made me chuckle.

[@kristjanbrezovnik6485]

They initiated the plot self-destruct.:D

[@travissmith2848]

Yep. Only I figure she kept it, simply the plot was decided it would be more dramatic that she go boom. Plot armor will get you killed by a kid with a spit wad if the plot says you should die.

[@wilsoncrunch1330]

Picard: Will, I leave for one hour, ONE HOUR!

[@stryletz]

And this is why Picard didn't like to leave the bridge...

[@philiptite1082]

Picard: "And you're not going to back down from that policy?" Riker: "No, Sir." Deleted dialogue: Picard: "Why the hell not, Number One?" Riker: "Because there won't be a bridge for you to return to, Sir."

[@Thermool]

That’s why he came back to the Enterprise in First Contact

[@virginiahansen320]

My opinion: Riker was still half cave-man. They never fully cured the devolution virus.

[@Seskal]

You watched this after Shives whining about evolution in ST didn't you? lol

[@Lightsoul1987]

lol

[@dean7763]

i just rewatched that episode today LOL

[@GammaPhyrok]

I've been saying that the Enterprise should have been able to handle the bird of prey without shields effectively if Riker would have said..."FIRE AT WILL!" For years!

[@redhairdavid]

@@Joseph928100 sounds like the problem is solved either way

[@SkyCharger001]

that would have been 'suicidal' for *William* T. Riker.

[@lonnyyoung4285]

@@SkyCharger001 the Data would be in command and it would have been even uglier for the Duras sisters.

[@Renji9031]

I think there would be fail safes in place to prevent a ship from firing on itself.

[@Krystalmyth]

F I R E E V E R Y T H I N G

[@infinitelyimpossible7170]

Yes. A galaxy class starship against an ancient bird of prey. a galaxy starship, even with no shields, should be able to easily demolish that BOP. Don't believe me? Just look at the episode the Wounded when a Nebula Class with no shields takes out multiple Galor Class warships. A bird of prey is not as powerful as a Galor class cruiser. To quote Captain Jellico, I can see why he's still your first officer lol

[@Nayrusa1]

Infinitely Impossible I fully agree with you there. Also in the episode “The Jem’Hadar” the USS Odessey also a Galaxy pre Dominion war refit and she took heavy damage from three Dominion attack vessels which bypassed her shields so I don’t think a single BoP which is decades old shouldn’t have done enough damage before the Enterprise destroyed it.

[@infinitelyimpossible7170]

Good points! I think this would have worked better with a Vorcha class battle cruiser instead of a BOP. As it is its like lursa and bator rolled a 20 to crit and Riker countered with a 1. Multiple times in a row haha

[@BlazingOwnager]

This is like a WW2 Corvette versus a modern aircraft carrier. Even if it gets a lucky hit in a critical spot, it's gonna die.

[@sid2112]

Captain Jellico was the best Captain, prove me wrong!

[@Slevin-Kelevra]

@@sid2112 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zmq3qoZ8ZauBbLs

[@klvsd]

They just wanted a new Enterprise for the movies.

[@deathstrike]

Even though they had crazy mods for Enterprise D like the 3 nacelle Dreadnought model that was used in an alternate reality. I could have seen them update Enterprise D to a higher spec just like the Constitution Class from NCC 1701 to 1701A

[@HighLordBaron]

As soon as they realized that the BoP is able to pierce the shield, the very first thing they should have done is to put the shields on a rotating frequency......

[@bcluett1697]

Especially a crew experienced against the Borg. Similar method of attack.

[@stevencohen624]

And then unloaded their arsenal on that Bird of Prey.

[@wlockhart]

True, but even with their shields down, a Galaxy Class could destroy that old BoP in seconds, if let loose its entire arsenal of weapons.

[@shrimper8489]

I don't mind telling you all that when I first saw this film as teenager, I was welling up at the ships destruction. I grew up with this ship, TNG got me into ST. To watch this ship, the Enterprise, the Flag ship of the fleet, destroyed by a bird or prey nearly had me in tears. I imagine that Picard, on quite nights, still thinks back to his days as Captain of this magnificently beautiful ship. This ship truly did "Go, where no one had gone before"

[@nunya3163]

Failure to modulate shields was a court martial worthy offense.

[@Dseagles14]

or three words: Fire all Weapons

[@nunya3163]

@@Dseagles14 Hard to believe that his first command was not to do both.

[@Dseagles14]

@@nunya3163 after the first shot, Riker should have obliterated that Bird of Prey

[@notmegaming9038]

sorry fellows but its hindsight bias. Theres no violations of protocol for this 90 second battle.

[@Plasmacore_V]

The shield modulation should rotate by *default* during combat.

[@jamesprise4252]

the shield frequency should have been modulating rapidly. So, bad writing

[@ZR117]

Hmm

[@2bituser569]

That should be automatic no order necessary from the ship’s commander.

[@matthew8153]

2BitUser They only do that when engaging the Borg.

[@darman12able]

Easily solved too: Riker: “Modulate shields!” Worf: “That first shot damaged the emitter’s control lines, the system’s frozen at that frequency it’ll take damage control teams several minutes to manually repair and reset them.” Riker: “Then keep returning fire until they’re destroyed.” Worf: “They’re destroying our weapons with each hit sir, we’ve already lost the fore torpedo tubes and primary ventral phaser bank. If we bring the dorsal phasers to bear we risk them hitting civilian quaters sir.” Riker: “Turn us away from them and try to keep the nacelles between us and them. We won’t be able to retreat if we can’t beat them but it might just give us the time we need to repair our shields and destroy them with the remaining weapon arrays.” Rest of the battle plays out as normal.

[@shawnconder4984]

@@darman12able very nice. See, just a few lines makes this whole idiocy seem plausible.

[@CmdrSkittles]

"Durass sisters...with the ability to field entire house fleets" If the movie had multiple birds of prey using cloaked hit and run tactics on the D, it probably would have made for a much better final fight. BOPs flying in one after the other, firing a few torpedoes or disruptor shots off and then cloaking as another one made an attack run from another vector. The D would be firing back, managing to knock out a few but with the sustained damage would take it's toll on the ship.

[@thefurrybastard1964]

That would have made much more sense and I bet would have happened in the TV show too.

[@AaronTelfordUK]

The *Actual* Riker Manoeuvre: How to destroy an almost state-of-the-art starship in combat to an inferior dustbin

[@ageofgreen99]

Funny how the Enterprise is one of the fastest ships in the fleet, but takes 3 days to break orbit. They should have ran at the bop and jumped to warp, circled back around, and came back hot.

[@deathstrike]

You have to remember at the time of the Enterprise D, Starfleet had no real war to fight. The Khitomer Accords were signed and the Klingons became an on again off again ally. Because of this short sighted and ridiculous philosophy the Federation adopted, starships were now carrying families in a giant luxury hotel. I think I speak for any who have served in the military this is NOT how you run a ship. No families on board, food is in a group mess hall no damn personal whatever. It's all about promoting teamwork. You live, dine, sleep, and work with your team and others as a whole. This was the way of Sparta and it is a good foundation for a military. So why did a 20 plus year old Klingon BOP destroyed the Federation Flagship? Simple, they tried to think that accords and laws would be followed and nobody would fire on them. *Facepalm* peace above all else.

[@LordZack1]

I guess this is just what happens when you consider combat a "minor province in the makeup of a starship captain."

[@maxwellgarrison6790]

They needed to take out the Enterprise-D to make way for a sleeker, more cinema-friendly model that was easier to film.

[@VegetaLF7]

Absolutely, the Enterprise-D being destroyed here isn't the problem. It's the fact that it was done in such a stupid and, to quote Spock, an illogical way. The flagship of the Federation, the mighty Enterprise-D, destroyed in a sham of a "battle" against a Bird of Prey that was outdated when the Galaxy-class first flew. This could have been fixed simply by giving the Duras Sisters a more powerful ship due to whatever connections they still had in the Empire coupled with upgraded weapons thanks to Dr. Soran and having the Enterprise-D fight back properly but be overwhelmed. The "clever" trick to defeat your enemy only really works when your enemy has a real advantage over you. Enterprise-A modifying a torpedo to zero in on the prototype Bird of Prey's exhaust works because that ship could fire while cloaked, a serious advantage over both Enterprise-A and Excelsior. Kirk and Spock using the Enterprise's console to force Reliant's shields to drop worked because Kirk had been caught with his pants down and Khan had managed to all but cripple the Enterprise in the opening shots. While the trick here of using Worf's knowledge of Klingon ships to find a weakness works and forcing the Duras' ship to cloak to eliminate their shields is perfectly fine, it doesn't work because even with full shields, Enterprise-D shouldn't have an issue overpowering them in a straight fight, even with her own shields down. At the very least give the Duras Sisters a better ship (maybe a new battle cruiser that could then be showcased over on DS9) and let the Enterprise-D go down swinging rather than the starship equivalent of getting shanked by a granny while doing almost nothing to stop it.

[@alexbennett7018]

VegetaLF7 also those examples that work from a writing prospective don’t need a lot of technobabble to understand unlike what happens in generation’s.

[@VegetaLF7]

@@alexbennett7018 Exactly. You can have technobabble, so long as you put in a layman's explanation too. There was a great example of this early on in TNG. There's a scene where the Enterprise is attempting to flee something and they jump to warp...except they aren't moving. Geordi is running around from station to station in Engineering, reading out various statuses of the assorted systems and just generally spouting technobabble nonsense...but he then follows it up with something like "all systems are functioning, we should be going like a bat out of Hell!". That tells the audience that whatever the technobabble was, it was saying the ship is normal right now, so the problem is from somewhere else. They kind of do similar in Generations, but to a lesser extent. Worf and Riker are discussing the Bird of Prey and they imply that their shields are tied into their cloak. Worf tells us it is a retired design because of that defect. All he needed to do was specify "if we can force them to engage their cloak, their shields will drop"

[@480JD]

It would have been less insulting if the Sisters were leading a squadron of BoP's.

[@andrebrynkus2055]

Oh, it wasn't a problem with the exteriors of the Enterprise-D. It was the interiors - they were designed for standard definition television cameras in the 80s. When shooting on film they were noticeably cheap looking so they needed a way to excuse new sets for the follow ups. The sleek Enterprise-E was a nice benefit.

[@Kameth]

Maybe the war prevented his decommission? Admiral: I hear Riker crashed a perfectly good ship. Hmm. We should definitely... Intel Officer: Sir! Fleets 5 and 7 have been wiped out. 98% casualty rate. We're running of of command officers in this sector. Admiral: -YOU KNOW WHAT, CHANGED MY MIND, HE'S FINE, STICK HIM ON AN OBERTH, WHATEVER.

[@lyght3043]

Even without shields they should have owned that old ship.

[@danscholl9972]

That's what blows my mind about the HORRIBLE writing!

[@danscholl9972]

The way this movie was written, both Riker and Picard would have faced a withering court-martial, and would have been drummed out of the service for loosing the flagship in such a sloppy and irresponsible way, regardless of their past accomplishments. They should go back and digitally remake that section of the movie. Instead of just one BOP, it should have been the sisters calling in all of their remaining allies.... make it a swarm of of BOP's plus a Vorcha class & maybe even a renegade Romulan ship from the Klingon civil war fiasco, all attacking the D. They could still write-in the destruction of the D, but make it a worthy death! And, instead of Riker looking like an inept commander, he could have pulled-off a brilliant tactical move to destroy the Duras rebels once and for all, even if the Enterprise eventually succumbs to injuries in battle. That or something along those lines would have left fans feeling much better about loosing the ship, and still allowed them to do the saucer landing scene, and moving on to the E, since they were hell-bent that they THINK they needed a new ship design (bit that's a whole other can or worms, lol)

[@chiroquacker2580]

@@danscholl9972 This, and while they are at it they could have given Kirk a much better ending. Maybe he could have sacrificed himself by taking the helm and ramming the Enterprise D drive section into the enemy ship while the Saucer escaped. They could have done the same Saucer landing this way too, because that was the only thing I thought was well done in the movie.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

It's like saying I could beat a prime Muhammad Ali in a fight if I cut off his pinky

[@RBweb24]

I never liked how the enterprise was destroyed in this movie, the galaxy class should have been able to crush that klingon ship

[@tareqn.gaming1622]

I read somewhere that a torpedo could destroy a Galaxy Class ship with it's shields down. Plus, it's the Klingons, so

[@ThePoshboy1]

@@tareqn.gaming1622 > I read somewhere so what? That's out of universe material. >Plus it's the klingons. If they actually acted like klingons instead of romulans then maybe they could have had a chance, maybe if they set a collision course they could destroy the enterprise but they didn't do that. They only won because Riker was an idiot.

[@tareqn.gaming1622]

@@ThePoshboy1 situation sorter (basic) They have your shield modulations and have opened fire - (remodulate shields/return fire) Return fire - blow up Remodulate shields - now you have a chance They remodulated their shields - (retreat/use visor) Retreat - lose code Use visor - find new shield modulation New shield modulation found - (fire at random spot/destroy shield emitters) Fire at random spot - 'hit bridge - kill everyone/hit nothing important - extra damage) Destroy shield emitters - (target bridge) No shields! - (retreat/fire) Retreat - leave Picard on planet and no backup plan Fire - get toasted But you know, this is basic. There are probably more options. Yes, Riker was being an idiot, but so were the Duras sisters.

[@Liopleurodon]

Theory: after the Ds destruction and some of the crew get commissioned to other posts, like Worf, Riker got cut from the command program for another decade. Thats, why he is still there from First Contact to Nemesis ;P And the judgement says "His patterns show two-dimensional thinking!" ;P

[@Tuning3434]

+Liopleurodon I laugh at your superior intellect!

[@CKN215]

Liopleurodon - I think it would actually be b/c of the events of the Pegasus episode.

[@Tuning3434]

@@thefurrybastard1964 Forever an ensign is just not good enough, that poor sod may still have some hope of becoming a lieutenant jr. Grade. Can't we chain him to Insanoways latrine and then wall over the entrance? If we wall over the door to her office too, we can definitely label it a net positive following Kant!

[@ChatBot1337]

Ive always liked Generations, flawed but fun. However, I agree completely that this battle was contrived for plot convenience. There is simply no way I'm going to believe the D was beaten by a bop. Even if the D had no shields and was throwing popsicle sticks out of airlocks it should have annihilated a single Klingon toy ship.

[@chrismulders2344]

1: starboard power coupling hit. 2: Geordi is looking at the station screens... oops. 3: we don't get to see Enterprise E.

[@conservativecatholic9030]

I wasn’t convinced until your point at the end about the standard practice of remodulating the shields during battles. The Enterprise should not have taken more than 2-3 hits.

[@andrewblanchard2398]

" HE BATHED NOW HE'S WANDERING THE SHIP HE MUST BE THE ONLY ENGINEER IN STARFLEET THAT DOESN'T GO TO ENGINEERING "

[@AncientOfDays963]

That would also make Worf an incompetent officer as well for not modulating the shields.

[@tachyontee3877]

Bingo, you are correct. I'd argue Data is culpable as well for not bringing that to Riker's attention. He was dual hatted during this battle as Chief of Ops and acting first officer. He should've said something about the shield frequency.

[@joshgerald1099]

The writers should be on trial for wills mistakes.

[@comeaution22]

It was so simple to correct too, there were two sisters: Lursa and B’etor. B’etor was clearly at tactical, Lursa was in “command”. What could have been would have created more drama at VERY little cost to money and time. The change: make LaForge a continuous liability during the battle. First note, when the sisters were spying on LaForge they discover the MSDS he looked at. During the battle I think we can all safely say he probably continuously glances at it to determine the state of the ship. Now, above the shield modulation frequency on the MSDS there is other information. What if there was a Sensor Output or some other technobabble that would allow the sisters to mask their ship to the enterprise’s sensors. Now the enterprise is not only shieldless, but they’re blind to the bird of prey as well. Now you’re saying to yourself, that doesn’t explain why Riker couldn’t remodulate the shields! Yes, you’re right. The opportunity they lost was this: while B’etor was playing “mosquito” and shooting up the Enterprise, Lursa was continuously looking at Geordi’s visor and getting new sensor and shield modulations. She calls out these changes and they make the necessary corrections. Geordi still too late to the party doesn’t figure it out, only gets frustrated that they seem two steps ahead of them. Meanwhile, On the bridge, Riker is communicating with crew members he has assigned throughout the ship who are looking out portholes to try to provide manual coordinates for the bird of prey while Worf frustratingly shoots and misses. This could be a cool place to introduce cameos like Vorek or Lt Sam LeVelle. (Sitting in the theater pointing to your buddy, hey look they were on lower decks episode!) Geordi finally figures it out and activates “tactile interface” (thank you Tuvok), tosses his visor down the warp core and remodulates for the last time. Data says, we have them! Worf looks up, all Riker needs to tell the Klingon warrior: Fire. Everything afterwards happens as it happens. Explosions, warp core, crash landing. You’re welcome. :)

[@raywharton9425]

That is now my head-cannon, thank you.

[@Spamsmoothie1701]

You are exactly correct on all points here. I've thought about this very issue at length. This was an obvious plot to get rid of the Galaxy class Enterprise-D, so it could be replaced by a flashier design in the following film. I just wish they had come up with a better scenario. There is no way a Galaxy class ship should have been able to lose to a Bird of Prey like that. The movie is badly written in general and doesn't make good use of the characters. Not having Kirk die with the Enterrpise D (if you were going to replace it) was a missed opportunity.

[@preppertrucker5736]

After that disgrace Riker should have joined his clone Thomas in the cardassian prison camp.

[@coolkiwiinoz]

Negan _ Technically Will is as much the ‘clone ‘as Thomas is. Will Riker was effectively duplicated and the Riker who made it back to the ship is no more or less the ‘original’ Riker than the one who didn’t make it back.

[@shawnconder4984]

How about this for a theory, I swear it'll fix everything. Thats not Will Riker commanding the Enterprise. Will secretly breaks Thomas out of the prison camp then gets Thomas to impersonate him while Will takes a vacation on Risa. Lmao

[@hogfry]

bad writing and a merchandising desire to redesign the ship killed the Enteprise D

[@MrSpike320]

I've been saying that ever since "Generations" came out back in '94. In the military, whenever one of their vehicles (tank, humvee, fighter jet, ship, etc) is lost, damaged, or destroyed, isn't there always some sort of inquiry into how and why it happened? The second the Duras sister's torpedoes breached the shields, Riker should've ordered the shields to be remodulated and rotated. Hell, it was his and Shelby's idea to do that back in "Best of Both Worlds." I also have issue as to why the warp core wasn't jettisoned before it breached. Scotty, O'Brien, Torres, Trip, and Stammets would've been like "I could reroute this to this", but Geordi was just "nope, nothing I can do."

[@eds1942]

They couldn’t jettison the core since the one thing that couldn’t fail in such a situation (the magnetic interlocks) failed. Geordi should’ve suggested the shield modulation since he was the guy that actually developed it.

[@MacTX]

I get that the writers had to destroy the Enterprise D in order to make way for the Enterprise E for the next movie but the way they wrote it was kind of meh.

[@karlinachen6325]

that's also true. it's always tradition in Startrek. whenever a new enterprise is about to be introduced, they destroyed the former one. with exception enterprise B, i guess.

[@ericbrown6203]

They didn't have to destroy the Enterprise they could have just decommissioned it

[@prion42]

The frustrating thing is problems like this can almost always be solved with just one line of dialog: Data: "Control linkages have been severed. We have no shield control."

[@TheCyborgMC]

I remember when this was released in 1994, the first thing that we screamed at the screen in the theatre was "MODULATE THE SHIELD FREQUENCY!!!"

[@ViroVV]

You definitely bring up an interesting and indeed overlooked point. I'm in the mind that nothing happened to Riker because he was in all likelihood being guided by what would have been standard operating procedure for child bearing ships from Starfleet. Of course there were more effective defensive maneuvers available but protocol likely dictated that a commander not chose to put the lives of innocents into harms way in the name of the greater preservation of the ship and its crew. But my real thoughts are that this is Trek, a franchise built on technical flubs, continuity breaks, illogical "TV" thinking, selective amnesia and a whole host of narrative faux pas that the fandom suspend disbelief on in the name of the greater story telling at play. So even though its fandom also has that heritage of quibbling over nonsensical minutia to no end, its rather counter productive to focus too much on illogical inconsistencies from a franchise where illogical inconsistency is an accepted cornerstone of its DNA.

[@2bituser569]

How would Starfleet be entrusted to protect the UFP if it tucked tail and ran.

[@invetegon4596]

@@2bituser569 they wouldent, I think his point is that that policy only occurs on highly family oriented vessels.

[@BlazingOwnager]

tl/dr: Shitty writing is to blame

[@Barrow754]

For the purpose of this movie Enterprise D had its "Plot Armour" removed and replaced with WW1 era Royal Navy Battle Cruiser plate

[@furbusms]

OMG I've been thinking that for so long. Thanks for the video

[@adamofgrayskull7735]

Rikers Klingon friend from season 2 was on that ship he killed his own friend played by Brian Tompson

[@Howlrunner82]

Yeah but since he ended up with the Duras Sisters...he probably wished for an honourable Death

[@eds1942]

Riker hesitated because he had hoped for a threesome with the sisters.

[@jasonhagar1758]

My opinions. 1.) Geordi's visor should have been inspected. Lol, I said that the first time I watched the movie and immediately thought of Mind's Eye. 2.) Yeah, they should have immediately modulated their shields. 3.) The Enterprise was hit with at least three photon torpedoes and a dozen or more disruptor shots. Hardly the glass cannon everyone claims it was. Established dialog in previous episodes episodes such as the Nth Degree and others have established that one photon torpedo blast could destroy a starship. And other episodes have proven it. 4.) Riker and Worf were negligent not to alternate shield frequencies if indeed it was established procedure.

[@Hidensee]

Troy... Crush wit Enterprise twice...Who let her drive star ship??

[@Lupochan2510]

Riker at first because Bunga Bunga and Picard at second because he want to do it properly, so take the woman for this task is „logical“

[@MJD1701A]

Yes, any Captain who loses a ship (even today) has an inquiry as to what happened then a trial if he was deemed responsible.

[@Dan__S]

The reality is that there isn't a standard when it comes to how anything behaves in star trek, all of it is magic that varies relative to what the plot and writers need it to.

[@timmooney6910]

TV Tropes uses the phrase “being handed the Idiot Ball” to cover those circumstances where the writers need a character to do something desperately stupid in order to make the plot work. Riker appears to have had it shoved down his throat. Picard also could have had the Nexus drop him further back in the timeline to stop Soran before any of this nonsense happened in the first place.

[@thehillbillygamer2183]

Remember what happened to The Odyssey it took two jem'hadar fighters have one had to kamikaze to destroy it an odyssey Shields what is effective against him for weapons at that time

[@joebuddensvoicecoach3060]

best video u put out in a while..

[@athrunzala6919]

Yes, it always bugged in the time it took Riker to talk to Worf and Data about the Techno Babble, Worf could have just fired at will and brough the situation to a close. It's not like the Sisters were smart enough to target Shields and Weapons first or anything.

[@SciFiNation]

No mention of the reuse of the destruction scene of the BoP from ST6? Shame on you LoreHead.....

[@Zaron_Gaming]

that's not unexpected or unusual.

[@jageralpha5170]

Considering they messed up with the uniforms, I'm not surprised recycled footage was utilised....DS9 did same in finale

[@fezenclop]

I was thinking he should’ve modulated the shields when I first saw the movie.

[@robertf3479]

I'm of the opinion that shield frequency modulation should be an automatic function, one of those things the computers do at least while the ship is in Condition One (Red Alert or Battle Stations.)

[@TornadoHound]

The Galaxy Class is on even par militarily with a Romulan Warbird. It was utterly ridiculous the D went down like this.

[@allistair61]

You make several valid points, it would be interesting to see what would've happened immediately after generations

[@nunya3163]

If only writers put as much thought into movies as Lore and others do, there would be far more $1 billion movies.

[@ringleader61]

The one enemy Riker could never defeat is bad writer's

[@jaredbaratta8589]

WRITERS, not WRITER'S, you dumb fuck. No apostrophes in plural words. Quit being a lazy app zombie loser and do your own goddamn typing!

[@Snowwie88]

Yes, this makes totally sense and I was jumping of my seat when I saw this back in the theaters back in '94. I was raging MAD about this. WTF????? A puny BoP vs the Enterprise, and the Enterprise, al though still destroying the BoP being lost by this way? Granted the crashing scene was a awesome feat just by visual standards and even it hold up to today, but the reason is mind boggling. Even when Dr. Soran said to the sisters, "Eliminate them", one of the sisters, B'etor, clearly says: "That's a Galaxy class starship, we are no match for them!". Even 25 years later this still infuriates me. The Galaxy is my favorite starship of all of them, I like it even more than the Sovereign.

[@thepcenthusiastchannel2300]

First instinct is "Re-modulate shields and fire all weapons".

[@rueceless7580]

No mater how we try to spin this the Enterprise should have disabled the out of date BoP in ONE shot. It's disabled more powerful vessels in a single volley before during the show. Even then a full spread of photons would have ended that hunk of junk in short order. I also dont buy the "trying to disable the enterprise" defense either, no dialogue in the movie hints at a loss of weapons. Generations is just an incompetently written movie that dumbs down EVERY character for the sake of drama ignoring seven years of competence in order to add an unnecessary action scene.

[@VegetaLF7]

See, I feel the whole battle could have worked had the Duras Sisters simply shown up with a brand new battle cruiser rather than an oudated "Kia-of-Prey" as SFDebris likes to put it. Give them a ship that makes them a worthy foe, maybe say it was upgraded by Dr. Soran, but keep the bit about forcing a cloak to drop the shields. Make the Duras' a serious threat so that the clever trick used to beat them actually is justified rather than have the entire audience screaming to "just fire back!" because there is no way the Enterprise-D should lose to the Bird of Prey.

[@rueceless7580]

@@VegetaLF7 That or not use the Duras Sisters who were at best joke villains at this point. Sadly it was all to save money after they spent all the budget on that holodeck scene apparently.

[@mrheroprimes]

didn't the enterprise-d already have multiple structural weaknesses with all those windows across the ship I'm pretty sure multiple Well aimed shots at those windows would cause the ship to start getting ripped apart by the vacuum of space.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

Don't forget the starboard power coupling..."Starfleet Procurement: We use the replicators from the lowest bidders possible!"

[@letsgobrandon416]

I agree. It's one of the things that always bothered me about how the they used the Enterprise in battle. We see what it could really do against the borg, just open up with every phaser and rapidly shifting between phaser banks. Then, every other foe is given the half-hearted treatment only to allow said foe time to hurt the Enterprise. If the Enterprise had been used to her full tactical capabilities, she would have suffered minimal damage and completely obliterated the warbird. Hell, used to her max, I don't think any Romulan, Klingon or any other alpha quadrant vessel could stand up to her in single combat.

[@LukeDavidRobinson]

I’d like to see Riker’s breakdown of the battle in Insurrection.

[@BlazingOwnager]

How many people dislike this video? Number: 1.

[@thefurrybastard1964]

I see what you did there.

[@zealotmaster1]

when you say enhanced sensors do you mean they still ask bob to look out the window

[@yodaslovetoy]

Bob got a friend, doubling the output of sensors mk1

[@VegetaLF7]

@@yodaslovetoy The Mk-1 Eyeball, so reliable that it is always an option no matter the era.

[@TheDjbz]

I thought about it and they could have given a better excuse/reason for the Enterprise to lose. All they had to do was say the first few shots hit the primary, secondary and tertiary power relays cutting the shields off and crippling the ability to charge weapons. (Thus not being able to fire back properly at all, and remodulating shields you don’t have anymore isn’t gonna work either )

[@ortizguard2816]

Another excellent analysis!

[@pl1guru]

One thing: BAD WRITING. This movie was meh at best and the writing was mediocre. Riker's poor tactical response was for plot and tension, nothing more. Don't even get me started on how bad the writers screwed up and disrespected Kirk.

[@Krystalmyth]

Well they set out to fuck Shatner over. He didn't want to do the movie when he saw the script. They told him if he didn't do the film they would have just killed Kirk off camera. So he went along with it to give it some dignity.

[@carguy3028]

It was bad writing, they had a couple reasons to destroy the ship, one the model was too cumbersome to handle during shooting and 2 they wanted to show the saucer landing on a planet. That is why the enterprise was destroyed. It would have been better if 3 ships had attacked instead of one. This wouldn't be out of the question since the Durass family still had influence, I'm sure they could have had 3 ships at their disposal to ambush and take down the Enterprise without shields.

[@may86bear]

They wanted an excuse to bring in Enterprise E. Still bad writing is the true culprit here👽

[@Gigas0101]

Riker's so skilled he does the impossible, even when it's the worst thing he can possibly do in any situation.

[@jasonhagar1758]

0:50 booyah! That was the conclusion what my unofficial investigation into the matter always said. Why didn't they check his damn visor? That thing is a proven liability.

[@hharvey3]

I totally agree! I will say that the downfall to this movie was bad writing. Major upgrades had been done to the Enterprise (this is evident by the additional stations on the bridge). At best, the Enterprise should have handled as well or better than the Odyssey did against 3 Dominion ships (with no shields), which by the way ran through the entire shield spectrum.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

Real world: horrible writing meant to remove the D and in lore: my only guess is a lucky shot to an already unstable warp core because before the fight Geordie does mention that there's something wrong with the warp core trying to get it fixed

[@karlinachen6325]

ou good point, i completely forgot about that part.

[@SkyCharger001]

just had an idea: why is the shield frequency called modulation instead of frequency? most simple answer: it's not the shield frequency, it's the frequency at which the shield frequency rotates around its base frequency. if true, then the whole question about ordering shield rotation/modulation is rendered somewhat moot as it was already being done.

[@Logarithm906]

Riker just wanted a new ship Basically it's an insurance job xD

[@Rand0m27]

No, Deanna was driving. It’s her fault.

[@vincentscott4695]

Rand0m27 The antimatter explosion wave knocked out the saucer section of the enterprise!!!

[@tempest20000]

Riker: Worf, is there anything we can take advantage from? Worf: The ship had a faulty plasma coil. Data: Um Commander, why don’t we just rotate the shield frequency? Riker: Oh. Good idea. There. Fixed it. Generations is a bull shit movie

[@aaronscott5892]

The writers wanted the ship destroyed so the studio could build a more camera friendly ship, the Enterprise E. But they definitely could of came up with a more plausible reason for its destruction

[@tachyontee3877]

Exactly. If they wanted the D gone, fine. Come up with a better way to get rid of it. This was dumb. Everyone knows it. Some just don't want to admit it out loud.

[@aperson22222]

_Generations_ was going for a wider audience than a typical TV episode, and as TNG had grown steadily more popular over the years, it makes sense that a significant fraction of the audience would not be familiar with a random episode like "The Mind's Eye." I'm certain I hadn't seen the episode at that point, myself. In fact, many would say that the movie had invoked far too many one-off episodes as it was already.

[@trekjudas]

generation sucks!! Everything about it is just awful! Kirk's death scene was pathetic! The enterprise losing to OLD bird of prey was beyond aggravating!

[@robertf3479]

Agreed on both points. Kirk should have been allowed to fall while going toe to toe with Dr. Soren, taking Soren with him. As for the BOP, personally I think either NCC-1701 or 1701A could have taken her in a fair fight, 1701D should have turned her into a zillion tiny bits of child's glitter without trying hard. But then I wasn't the author of this story.

[@alexanderwebb3032]

I think you missed the real reason, Worf was sitting down at tactical. If he’d been standing up they would have won the battle ;)

[@Crazy-Chicken-Media]

you forgot the fact the Enterprise has been to other galaxies that thing had tens of billions of light years under its belt.

[@davidw706]

Riker's haircut is court martial worthy in itself

[@GammaPhyrok]

ALL WEAPONS TRAINED ON THAT SHIP.....FIRE!!!

[@patrickm.8509]

Great job @LoreReloaded , I enjoy your videos. Here is what, I would have done with the space battle. It would start off with the Duras sisters beaming over La Forge from a K'Vort, not an outdated bird of prey. Data reports that the Duras Sisters are powering their weapons and have raised shields. Riker orders the Enterprise to leave orbit,(maybe making it easier to maneuver or warp away if needed), but two more K'Vort class ships decloak flanking the Enterprise. Trapped Commander Riker, orders La Forge to link warp power to the shields strengthing them. (This was done in an episode, can't think of the name at the moment). The three K'Vorts start firing on the Enterprise, Data says another K'Vort has decloaked. The ship hails them, turning out to be one of Gowron's ships. The ally K'Vort tries to take the pressure off the Enterprise, being able to pull one K'Vort off her. The ally K'vort and the Enterprise fights what remains of the Duras Sister's fleet. The Enterprise through getting enough support from the K'Vort slowly leaves orbit. La Forge tells Riker that the Warp Core is under lots of strain, that it may not hold up much longer. The Enterprise takes out one of the K'Vorts, the Duras Sisters fight even harder focusing just on the Enterprise. Shields on the Enterprise start to weaken,(maybe 85% or lower), the ally K'Vort taking serious damage from the battle losing weapons. The Klingon captain then hails the Enterprise saying it's a good day to DIE and it was an honor fighting with them, he then rams one of the Duras ships destroying both him and the Duras ship. With the Duras Flagship remaining, the Enterprise shields weakening (maybe 50% or 45%). Riker asks Data on ways to quickly defeat the vessel,(the strain from the battle is shown on the Enterprise). Data mentions the Picard Mauaver, Riker contacts La Forge to see if the warp core can take it. La Forge agrees on the tactic, the Enterprise does the Picard Mauaver finishing off the Duras Sisters. La Forge reports the warp core has to be shut down, Data helps him prevent a Warp core breach. Both Klingon allies and Federation ships, come to help the Enterprise which is badly damaged and needs to go to spacedock for repairs. Maybe due to the damage to the warp core after it comes online the Enterprise can only go warp 5 or 6 max. The Enterprise picks up Captain Picard, after talking to Riker notes he would make a great captain one day. Riker says something about remaining on the Enterprise, Captain Picard talks to Commander Riker about being a captain quoting Kirk on being in the chair you can make a difference. Cut to Kirk being in the nexus or on the Enterprise B. For fun cut to Picard respectfully declining the offer to become an Admiral from Starfleet Command. Ending with either the Enterprise D warping away battle-damaged with KDF ships and Federation vessels or the Enterprise B. For the Enterprise E, Starfleet may repair the D out of respect and then retire her,(The Enterprise D has been through a lot in seven years). What do you think? :) P.S. I thought putting some callbacks from Yesterday's Enterprise Battle wise would be fun,(fighting K'vorts).

[@StoneyBrownTV]

I always wondered why Riker gave just the vague order, to Troi of all people, to get them out of orbit. Remodulating the shilds was in my mind but I thought the order to warp them away immediately until they figured out what happened would've been better than turn a large ass ship when the bird of prey would likely maneuver better than them. Great episode Lore.

[@Dseagles14]

I've always hated that the Enterprise-D was destroyed by a 20 year old Bird of Prey. There is no way that a Bird of Prey could destroy a Galaxy Class ship even a Pre-Dominion War variant. Riker is not fit to command a Starship

[@ssshanemjlll]

I agree with everything you said except one minor point. You mentioned he should have either pitched up or down. The last thing he should have done was pitched down. pitching down would have exposed the bridge to a direct line of fire with the shields being useless. Another flaw of star fleet design is the bridge being placed at the top of the saucer section and not deep within the ship its self. The bridge being the command and control of a ship is too easy of a target.

[@notmegaming9038]

Lore, suggestion. Separate trial videos into defense & prosecutor ones. I think you'll consider more possibilities that way all while making more videos

[@atigerclaw]

The immediate 'automatic' response by a trained tactical officer should have been: "Remodulating shields! Torpedo bay loading! Phasers locked! Permission to return fire?!" In a combat situation when taking fire, counter-battery procedures should be a matter of reflex, not rely on your commander to tell you which gun to use with which bullet. If you are the tactical officer, you know your weapons. You know what to use. All you want is the go-ahead to use them. Especially when you're responding flat-footed to an attack.Heck, the response time for being fired on was abysmal. The initial torpedo was crossing the gap for several seconds, and nobody reacted to the BoP opening fire until after the shot landed. The ship's computer should have been screaming an incoming fire alarm the moment that shot left the BoP's tube. And Worf should have already been preparing a counter. Overall, the Duras Sisters should have gotten one, maybe two shots off before they got the Star Trek version of an Alpha Strike. Multiple forward phaser banks, and a full salvo of 10 photon torpedoes all at once aimed at a stationary target. That is, pretty much, like poking a bear with a cattle prod, and getting smacked in return. One thing I will note, that might be more the visuals team doing a good job, is that if you look at where the shots hit initially, the actual shielding array (grids on the surface of the hull) might have been the target of the opening salvo. Hit the shield projection grid before the enterprise can remodulate, and knock out the shields for the remainder of the fight. (The shields are not the navigational deflector.) Though, if I were in the Duras Sister's place, my FIRST shot would have been the bridge, instead of a minute into shooting. Blow up the bridge with most of the command staff in the first shot of the brawl, and the ship is a sitting duck. I personally don't think the warp core was the target. The Core is too deeply buried in the secondary hull and the only viable shot that would have tagged the core, or more importantly, the antimatter storage pods, would be a good solid set of belly hits. Heck, if anything, the warp core is a red herring if you want to kill the ship fast. The Warp core is just a fancy combustion chamber where you ram matter and antimatter together. You have some energized plasma from the constant reactions going on in pulses, but the REAL volatile bit is the AM Storage pods. Again, a good job by the effects team, because when the stardrive section goes, you can see the warp core itself go as a small explosion ripping through the spine, THEN the pods fail and OBLITERATE the vessel. You can tell they were looking at the schematics and going: "So the Warp core would breach, releasing a plasma explosion that would tear its way all the way up and down the collumn to the injectors, breaching the hull in two places, then the explosion at the lower injector would rip back into the antimatter storage pods, breaching the first pod, which would explode, chaining through the rest of the pods in a split second and blowing the ship to kingdom come. We could animate this whole sequence exactly as it should look without messing up any of the writing. Let's do it."

[@HelloKindWorld]

Interesting fact: Riker's ancestor living on Earth in our time drove a Dodge Challenger Hellcat and lost a drag race to a 1993 Chevrolet Cavalier.

[@AkenValle]

Remember Maxwell? No shields, and he won.

[@hawkstringfellow]

The ship is as strong as the writers say... I have spoken.

[@jamesschmidt6993]

It's possible that the command crew "froze" when the klingons breached the shields, being in shock that an old ship was able to do so. Riker as well as the rest of the crew were caught off guard, and weren't expecting the klingons to attack. I think Riker wanted to withdraw, repair, and come back all guns blazing. The Enterprise crew was extremely over confident, and that was the downfall of the Enterprise D

[@jamesschmidt6993]

Very true. On the other hand, Worf in those situations knew how stacked the odds were going in to those situations. They didn't consider the bird of prey a threat until it was too late

[@Vincent-396]

A compelling arguement. It makes me sad because I love Riker’s character.

[@leomartin5965]

Who is to say that the Duras sisters didnt have modifications of their own.

[@excellingdeicide2967]

To bad Junior Commander Data was able to exployt them.

[@redlawyers]

The writers sank the Enterprise, 'nuff said! D was an elegant ship and grew with time since 1987. She still could have been decommissioned a damaged hero instead of landing on the planet.

[@impactguns2]

Riker should have charges directly at the bird of pray firing everything they had. Then pass over or under the war bird. This would have shortened the time of the initial barrage, and forced the bird of pray to execute a 360 degree turn. Running placed the Enterprise in the most danger.

[@charlesandresen-reed1514]

The overall decision on this is exactly right- from the moment the battle started when I first watched the film, my thought was "... and you're actually going to start fighting, when?" If you want to watch what a more competent commanding officer does in this situation, simply look at the episode The Jem'Hadar of DS9; the captain runs through the shield spectrum, and once that's proven to be ineffective transfers all shield power to weapons, which is exactly the right call. All they would have had to do, if the writers wanted this battle to be this one-sided, would be to re-create the scenario from Star Trek II: Wrath of Kahn- with no shields to stop them, target engineering, and take both main and auxiliary power offline. That would make the rest of the battle make far more sense, but we don't see that here; indeed main power was still functioning right up to the moment that main power exploded spectacularly. :) And even in that scenario, running on zero main power, zero auxiliary power, with only battery power remaining, the Enterprise was able to fire a few phaser shots if it wished- in that scenario a futile gesture anyway, but proof that a starship like the Enterprise should still be able to fight to some degree even with significant damage. The only thing I find fairly easy to hand-waive away would be the shield frequency issue. Geordi is still in engineering working on monitors throughout the battle, so there's no reason the D12 couldn't keep matching every frequency they change to. Still, that would be handled if, as you indicated, Geordi was examined in any competent fashion. Hell, Discovery did better with this, requiring Ash Tyler to undergo quite a bit of checking for programming as a matter of policy before returning him to duty. When Discovery's plot points make more sense, you know some writers are struggling. And in the peace loving utopian federation, they put crew back on duty within hours (at most) of being held as a POW?! Jesus, even the U.S. military in the middle of one of the bloodiest conflicts in history gave recovered POWs far, far more support with recovery, and giving them often months of treatment before returning to duty if they even made them return to duty at all- and typically return to duty did not mean front line combat if you were a recovered POW. I.e. not doing your previous job that put you into this circumstance.

[@KaiDenker]

They needed a reason to build the Enterprise E. That's it.

[@dhyde2025]

Nah. Riker knew the sovereign class was coming and missed that new ship smell.

[@csehszlovakze]

Except the Duras sisters had *realtime* info about the shield *and* weapon frequencies, and they automatically modulated their own to win. I agree that it was stupid that they didn't check the visor, but at least the D's destruction convinced Geordi to use an implant instead.

[@johnnijssen8590]

In our universe we had the Creator, in their universe they have writers.