"Why" Fire Harden your White Wood Bow

[@alchapman7376]

I just finished fire hardening my first hickory bow. I had ordered the DVD and so glad I did but I still had a question. I called Shannon Outdoors and asked Ms Marylin if Keith was available for one quick question and he picked up. What I suspected would be a one minute phone call turned into a 40 minute phone call. :) Keith was a pleasure to talk with and he was more than generous with his time to give me advice. I am more than tickled with the results of my fire hardening efforts. I cannot imagine making another white wood bow without fire hardening it. Thank you Keith, Thad, and Billy Berger, I wished I had know of this 50 years ago. lol

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Thank you. Keith is always willing to share his knowledge. I also wished I had learned this many years ago. But I guess later is better than never. Glad you had success with your bow making.

[@williambell8206]

I've known Keith for quite a while and studying southeastern Indian life has been a passion of his for a long time. That he figured this out doesn't surprise me. That it works as well as it does answers so many questions that those of us who have made bunches of white wood bows had. If a white wood is hard to split (hickory, sweet gum, black gum, etc), it will make a killer bow using Keith's process........

[@twintwo1429]

Guys, if you haven't seen the video get it. It's good. Better also get THADS videos: FULL CIRCLE and NATIVE ARROWS AND POINTS. They are the best primitive bow and arrow videos I've seen.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Thank you

[@Ozarkmountainoutback1]

I have all the Beckum Outdoors dvds. The best on the market, in my opinion.

[@dennyroszell8744]

Just ordered my DVD! Can’t wait to get started on this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[@ragnarnyhuis6331]

Using this method you can even build super fast shooting bows from Hazel (grows everywhere in Central Europe), which is normally considered a rather weak bow Wood! Amazing!!

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Thanks for the information. Sounds good

[@afoolnamedchance4937]

Yes Crepe Myrtle like that here in Alabama fire harding a Dogwood now. I'm curious to see the poundage gain. In my area Ash, Hickory about the best in my opinion.

[@magnushaugen5094]

Greetings from Norway! i've made a few bows using this method now, and I am just amased of how good this method is😁👍

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Thanks Magnus glad to hear you are making great bows. Are you making elm bows?

[@livingprimitively]

I would also like to know which ones you have exprimented with as I am also in Norway. I am right now starting a couple from birch, bird cherry and rowan. Am hopeful. :)

[@BeckumOutdoors]

@@livingprimitively we have used hickory, elm, white oak, Flowering dogwood, persimmon, sweetgum , I have heard others use promegranite, hazel, black locust, privet and milled boards of hardwoods. Keep me up to date on your projects. Thanks

[@livingprimitively]

@@BeckumOutdoors I can now confirm that Bird cherry (Prunus padus) works. Normally a useless bowwood, no compression strength. Extremely light wood. It turned out an absolute screamer of a bow, but still took some set. I think it is a wood that needs particularly harsh roasting to keep the reflex. Either that or going lighter on the drawlength. I roasted it pretty heavily, but did not dare going further.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

@@livingprimitively Thank you for this. Glad to hear another type of wood works. Sounds like maybe a sinew back would make your wood a screamer with setback. Thanks again

[@beesmongeese2978]

Very precious information thanks a lot

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Thanks

[@whilomforge3402]

Europeans built holmegaard style bows out of spruce and pine, believe it or not! I’m absolutely positive they used fire hardening on those bows as well. Especially considering the size of the fauna they had to hunt.

[@woodlandfun4140]

Now Thad Im convinced on buying the video. But first I would like to know if the fire hardening process is demonstrated or just talked about.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

It is demonstrated from a to z. It will teach you the process. Thank you.

[@jeanpierreclerc9613]

Could you give me the title of this video.Please I want it.

[@tonymaurice4157]

​@@BeckumOutdoors Can you just dry out the bow next to the fire without the form? Will it warp and twist.. I don't think ancient natives used clamps and a form.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

@@tonymaurice4157 I have done that but you need to have a stave that is not prone to twisting.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

@@tonymaurice4157 Also we know native people did not have modern clamps and forms but I know how to accomplished the task with natural materials. It will be on a KZbin video.

[@bienyamientoefy1923]

🙂❤❤❤greetings gentleman.i loved this very much.love to follow you guys.raer information that was kept as a secret

Great video under appreciated knowledge ! Cheers!

[@eliford2258]

I wonder how maple would react?

[@ordyhorizonrivieredunord712]

The wood you fashion from a local tree and use it's natural flexibility after seasoning a couple of years. and use a strong cord and tune it to the wind and oil it with hemp oil and warm it into shape, then try to make a song about it and if you hit the target twice in a row with it it will make a good bow

[@ndubstar]

I fire harden all my bows now. Hickory and elm. Osage? Have not made a bow yet. I wonder of black locust since i have some staves. Not at first i wont but one stave i will try. See if it helps.

[@ordyhorizonrivieredunord712]

I suggest as I was told, better to use a stem than a limb, as the stem is stronger than the limb, I was told that from ancestral memories they would tell us as we were making a bow. In North eastern Canada.✨💥🎡💥✨🐱‍🐉✌😊👍🐱‍🏍💦💨

[@user-jy3km4sd8r]

Just finished my first attempt at making a hickory bow. Haven’t shot it yet (just finished it today, arrows in route) but I did put tounge oil on it already. Can I still fire harden it? Working on my second bow and definitely going to try it on my next one.. I live in Ohio and have lots of hickory around my house. Cut one down and that’s my wood source. Love your videos.

[@surfanza]

PLEASE CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE I CAN FIND THE EXACT SAME AMERICAN NATIVE FLUTE MUSIC?? MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL BOWYERS FRIENDS…

[@surfanza]

Hi there I would like to know what is the background music? It’s really beautiful! And yes I will order the fire hardening videos! I already had some very good with sugar maple

[@d540vamartin9]

Have yall considered laying wet rags or something damp to keep the back wet while fire hardening? So only a slim layer of the back of the bow doesnt harden ?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

That's not needed. Hickory has the strongest back.

[@ndubstar]

I can attest hickory and elm gain tremendously with fire hardening. I will not not fire harden those woods. Period.

[@DriftWander770]

I’m a great fan of elm

[@UncleDanBand64]

Great video guys 👍

[@Rowanbows]

Its the best tuning. You shrink the wood cells and after all they cant suck as much water in than before. the belly becomes harder and the bow becomes lighter. less weight more power to the arrow - simple thing. I shot a 50lbs fiber bow over the chrony with 26 gramm arrows = 52m/s. then I shot a 40lbs heat treated Black locust with the same arrows = 47m/s. nothing to add.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Good test Rowan.

[@Rowanbows]

@@BeckumOutdoors kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4Wsq2ClmZaXgrM

[@stevenschaffner4369]

Gentlemen, I very much enjoy and appreciate your videos. I live in Nova Scotia Canada so I don't have Osage or Hickory to use . I do have ash , maple , cherry and elm . What would you recommend and wood you use the heart wood?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Elm and more elm

[@HeartlandMakesAndOutdoors]

Does the dvd or download show you how to make a fire hardened white wood bow. Like a step by step how to make your own..? I am wanting to learn more about it, and see if I can possible make one myself. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer. PS, i found the DVD, but not the download, can you add a link to it .? Or add the links in the description of this video. Thanks again for taking the time to make this video and share with us. I am intrigued. Dale

[@HeartlandMakesAndOutdoors]

Streaming Version : shannonoutdoors.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-the-fire-hardened-white-wood-bow-streaming-version/ DVD Version : shannonoutdoors.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-the-fire-hardened-white-wood-bow-dvd/

[@jonah214]

you can fire harden osage too. tempered osage is some serious stuff.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Yes, I agree Osage is great bow wood in it's natural state too. Transforming whitewood into a great bow was the subject matter. White wood is no longer second string wood. It is wide spread and was used for thousands of years to protect and feed people. In my opinion it is no longer second string. With all said I will not sell my Osage bows they have been and are still great bows. I like the fact that I now have access to a great bow wood that is common and local. Hickory is my go to bow wood. Makes life easier for this bow maker.

[@kevinemard5370]

What in your opinion is the best finish to use im going try this with a white birch

[@electrominded8372]

Had great success doing this to a juniper bow, anyone ever fire hardened white oak?

[@meedy2023]

Does fire hardening do anything for board bows?

[@sstone01]

Interesting video. watched it twice and considering purchasing for a couple white wood bows I am working on. I have a question though. Does fire hardening improve the flexion failure point of the bow on the back? I get the point of compression benefits for performance but does the fire hardening improve the durability of bows that are unbacked, especially if a ring has not been chased. I was taught to pretty much back all my white wood bows and I have with sinew but just curious if this could reduce the need or improve on it.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Thanks for your question. Hickory has a super strong back. It is almost impossible to break a back on hickory before fire hardening or after. Just do not violate the back fibers just to be safe. I have made bows from hickory with the back cut thru several layers or decrowned and hickory will still pass the test of making a successful bow but their is zero reason to cut thru a natural back on a hickory stave. The dvd or download will explain from A to Z covering all the questions you may have. Thousands of self bows have been made from hickory without one strand of sinew used. Thanks Thad.

[@randyperkins5063]

Can you fire harden and still be able to recurve limbs?

[@anondeilvers91]

has anyone had any experience with making a bow from sweetgum? I recently cut a sapling and I would like to have it made into a fire hardened bow. any tips or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Yes we cover fire harden sweetgum on the dvd. Also we have many sweetgum bows being built as we speak.

[@billyberger2462]

I shot one of Keith's fire hardened sweet gum bows and it was very fast with no handshock. Sweet gum is a great wood to fire harden and it makes one of the fastest bows of all the woods we've tested so far. The DVD will show you all the steps for making your own fire hardened bow!

[@anondeilvers91]

Thank you both for your feedback, I'll be sure to buy your dvd for more information.

[@afoolnamedchance4937]

Here in Alabama I make the kids bows all the time out if Crepe Myrtle, Sweetgum, Dogwood. Sweetgum and Dogwood kids bows are pretty dang fast.

[@Daylon91]

Whats your opinion on maple as a bow building material. Ive really only heard good things.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

The maple "red maple" in our region is not good bow wood, but the northern maple is a better wood for bows I have heard. I have not used it but I am sure it would work. Give it a shot. Any strong white wood with a strong or moderately strong back will work with a good cook and tiller.

[@Daylon91]

@BeckumOutdoors thank u very much your videos, especially the tillering the thousand year old bow were stellar. I've shared them with ppl struggling with tiller on my board bow group. I say u guys make it fun and very simple. No guess work. Cheers from the cold prairies

[@Daylon91]

@BeckumOutdoors I have made my first true bow even though it's just from a board but my first attempt was a success. People were shocked that, that was my first bow but it's from your videos and Clay Hays.

[@isaacwhite9255]

Thad, I am working on a Hickory selfbow and I know for a fact I do want to fire harden it but do I live I city limits. Would you think that it would be a good idea to heat treat it with a propane torch, which would add a nice pattern to the wood as well, or should I just find some place to smoke it slowly with a fire?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Look for a place to cook the wood over time. It will take a couple hours depending on the thickness of wood. Don't believe it could be done with a torch. Time over coals will get you what you need.

[@isaacwhite9255]

@@BeckumOutdoors Alright thank you very much.

[@gregharris8984]

I looked at the site. Do you ever recurve tips? Have you done any videos on this?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Keith has done recurves with much success.

[@christophergainey9395]

Thad can you still reflex the tips of the bow after its fire hardened ?

[@dejanseguljski5102]

Yes you can

[@SgtHopwoodofMarines]

Do you fire harden the back and belly of the bow or just the belly? In the video here, it looks the like one shown during your discussion is kinda cooked in the back of the bow. Are you in essence plasticizing the wood fibers?

[@cheyackatustenuggee1836]

The belly

[@calebchristian404]

Can you fire harden white wood arrows so they act like rivercane and they will always stay straight

[@dgundeadforge17]

There is a book on primitive bow making, and the author says all the white wood shafts had scratches running up and down the length of the arrow. The grooves harden more than center wood and keep the arrow straight. I will try to find the book and give you the title. He did experimenting and visited many native American museum's.

[@calebchristian404]

I’ve heard of them doing that. In a dvd that Thad made he said he still had a little trouble keeping them straight with the grooves. I’ll try it and see what happens

[@dgundeadforge17]

@@calebchristian404 the author said the grooves help but Don't entirely prevent. I would try smoking the arrow shafts for different times. I watched a Japanese uymi bow making video, and the belly bamboo is smoked for months to dry out and harden. I think the same chemicals that cure meats cure the wood, the high temp just hardens it. But curing it thoroughly would make it not warp from moisture.

[@calebchristian404]

Dan and hobbies thanks

[@dgundeadforge17]

@@calebchristian404 just don't make too hard, like they said in video the bow is mostly hardened, if arrow is too hard it could be brittle and snap when shooting.

[@ordyhorizonrivieredunord712]

Oiling white wood with linen oil and letting it sink in, or hemp seed oil, several times will give the strength of hemp and linen fibers and will make it water repellent. As we do with our paddles so the water cannot penetrate the wood and make it wet, we also use these oils for our walking sticks and toboggans or any thing you don't want to get wet. as in the south they use lemon oil with bee's wax for wood and gear... great bows and arrows 🎡

[@ordyhorizonrivieredunord712]

@@korbindarwin3208 ✨

[@dgundeadforge17]

How does the download work, is it a link or video file, I would like to purchase it?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Go to ShannonOutdoors.com and I believe it is a streaming version.

[@ronheidebrecht6967]

Hi Keith, I recently purchased your video. It is well done and I’m looking forward to trying my hand at fire hardening. I appreciate all of the work that you, Thad and Billy put into this. This is a game changer for those of us who have more white wood available in our locale. My question is have you experimented with different bow designs as far as width and length of limbs? My first though is all bow designs would benefit to some degree, while there maybe certain bow designs that might benefit more. For example with hickory, limb widths around 1 1/2 to 1 3/4” wide mid limb and tapered to 1/2” tip is a common design...so how would a typical design like that compare to a pyramid bow design or a Meare Heath (very wide) limb design that has been fire hardened? From your experiments have you seen results with all designs and which ones yield the best after fire hardening? Many thanks for your contribution to this game changer for many of us.

[@keithshannon4410]

Ron, All of the beneficial properties of fire hardening will apply to any design. These would include a greater increase in compression strength, stability, hydrophobic qualities, and a significant increase in poundage resulting in less mass. One tidbit though, whatever design you are going to make, you would want to think about the overall width as if you were making it from an Osage. In other words, the fire hardening will allow you to make the bow of your design 1/4 inch narrower to help significantly reduce overall mass. Since you have purchased the DVD, if you have any further questions, you may get in touch with me directly.

[@TightwadTodd]

@@keithshannon4410 This answered 1 of 2 questions i had,,thank you..The other is,,You guys talk about how it benefits white wood hydrophobic qualities in more humid environments,,but what about Arid environments??..Would there be a possibility of over drying in dry climates,such as the Great basin and Southwest????

[@keithshannon4410]

@@TightwadTodd I really don't think that would be a problem with most hard whitewood such as hickory or oak as long as you don't overcook it. Their tension strength is really amazing.

[@shanek6582]

Does fire hardening help Osage also or just hickory and such?

[@bethanyhadelman514]

Im pretty sure white woods such as hickory, white oak, and birch

[@arcadioflores8982]

About time

[@jamesk8730]

What's the difference between fire hardening and heat treating?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Hey James, that's discussed in the KZbin video. Its 35 minutes and we talk about that same topic. You can order the download or dvd which is one hour long and learn much more than this video clip. But your question is answered om KZbin. Thanks

[@kennethbrown7350]

Hello James ... i recently got these fine fella,s video and have talked to Keith many times since and as an avid bow maker i use 90 percent hickory and boards for that 90 percent. I recently just got done with 4 fire hardened bows 3 of which are board bows. i heat treated all my bows with a heat gun and while that helped reduce set and added a weight gain of roughly 5 percent and reduced limb mass some , but still took on some set and still have to maintain it the same with sealers to help reduce mc issues. even the best of bow woods will take on some set unless there is some sort of added performance and the set of which it takes only the bowyer will know, but that being said there is no comparison. The fire hardened bow will gain at least 25 or more percent in draw weight than a heat treated bow with a heat gun. With these specs with a heat treated bow with a heat gun { 1.5' at fades up to mid limb n then taper to .5' at tips 66 ttt average draw weight with limb thickness being 3/8" is roughly 50 pound now you take that same bow n fire harden it you will have to re tiller that bow and reduce limb mass to get back to that 50 pound draw weight and whatever draw length you draw and the results in that is a faster , harder shooting bow that will maintain its profile that you wont have to worry about it taking on moisture ,massive set or n e of the things natural that could happen to the wood due to its nature or enviromental issues. You can tell the difference just by stringing one up its a lot harder and the same when you unstring it as well as when you nock n arrow and shoot it. Ive shot fiberglass bows and they dont even compare to a fire hardened bow , the hickory is no longer considered hickory everything about the wood is changed a heat gun does not compare even close to the results of fire hardening. This is my experience and thoughts . Thanks and God bless...

[@justinspencer1539]

Can you fire harden black cherry?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

I think you may be able to but it would have to be backed

[@richardquick826]

whats the proper length to make a bow (hickory) from nock to nock 64 or 66 or 68? i really have to try this.. please send me your instructions . have a address to write to ? i know of a fallen tree hickory 10 inches in dia. i will cut it up in 6 foot pieces. ty dick

[@oakridgeboy2023]

I just want to use bear grease no synthetic

[@dgundeadforge17]

Does the chemical in the smoke cure the wood just like how it cures meat,?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Could have some effect. We try this on a gas grill and it did not work as well.

[@Mwwright79]

If you want more credibility for your process, get a roughed out fire hardened stave into the hands of one of the accomplished bowyers that are vocally skeptical but honest, one that has nothing in reputation to gain or lose. I understand the skepticism, I also think y’all may be on to something. If a well known accomplished bowyer has great success using your method, it will explode on the primitive archery scene. Opposite is true with failure due to the method or improperly applying the method. Hence why I said to provide a stave that you know it right.

[@keithshannon4410]

If you are skeptical, all you have to do is buy the video so that you understand the science of what is going on and then make one. You won't be skeptical for very long, I promise. Same for anyone else. There are many people now that are amazed at the bows they're turning out and the list is growing fast. This will be the best-accepted method for making whitewood bows in the near future anyway, with or without them. The benefits are just too great. The vocally skeptical accomplished bower will probably be the last person to learn the benefits of this because they are heavily biased and don't want to listen because they think there is nothing to learn but your point is well taken. We'll see what we can do. By the way, Paul Comstock and Steve Allely gave the method and video rave reviews. Accomplished ? Yes and Yes! Skeptical? No and No! Thanks for your thought and input.

[@oakridgeboy2023]

Try hackberry

[@ordyhorizonrivieredunord712]

I'll let you guys argue about that and be gone working on my arrows...🐱‍🏍✨

[@franciscogomez9036]

I make primitive bow to fire harder hickory bow are superior then osage orange

[@MarcRitzMD]

Why do you keep mentioning "God"? Is there a god of archery that you are referencing? Is this esoteric bow building?

[@MarcRitzMD]

Heat treatment has been used by the bowyer community for more than 15 years. This is standard technique. To make claims that this is any different is ridiculous. Go to bowyer events to put your bows to a test. Discuss methods on online forums. Write books. That is how the community has been growing and developing. Not with some DVD and unchallenged claims.

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Have you watched the video? Have you tried the process? Yes there is a large difference between heat treatment and fire hardened. The main element to fire hardened is the long soak time over coals. This allows the heat time to penetrate deeply. Here is one simple way to look at this. Could you cook a pig ham with a heat gun all the way thru so it would be safe to eat. You would burn the outside without cooking the inside. But with a long soak the coals will cook the ham to the bone. Many many bowyer's are making the best bows they have ever made using this technique. Words from their mouth not ours. We get emails and photos of their successful bows. Some bowyer's are using wood types we never used and having success. The key is using wood that has a super strong back. Hickory in my opinion is number one. I think maybe you should try this first before making conclusions. You doing it yourself, then you could form an accurate conclusion. Also I refer to the god of osage. This is a common term that just means someone has a high reverence or deep respect for something. It has nothing to do with someone's personal religion. I feel sure you have heard this statement used many times. The God of War for example. My advice is simply make a bow yourself with this method before you claim you known the outcome.

[@Tamaquashad]

@@BeckumOutdoors no reason even replying to this guy, he obviously is on the same train people were on when you came out with the video 1+ years ago. People are starting to agree with you (Clay Hayes just made a video about it) so this guy is way behind lol.

[@billyberger2462]

Was Obama a stone age man? And could Obama learn to make a fire hardened bow?

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Remember his statement " You did not make that" well he did not and could not. Haha

[@erickharrington9901]

“fire hardened bows are gone and they’re not coming back. what kinda magic wand does keith have to bring back fire hardened bows “. obama

[@hillbilly4christ638]

The background music is not needed.

[@Tamaquashad]

To each his own. I love the music

[@surfanza]

Seriously the background music is fucking AWESOME as I try to SHAZAM it without any succès:: Fire hardening with sugar maple is really what I’m into! Please what’s the music there so I can hear it whenever I want to?❤️

[@dennyroszell8744]

Just ordered my DVD! Can’t wait to get started on this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!!

[@BeckumOutdoors]

Hope you learn alot and enjoy the video.