Why Frost Mage sucks (and will probably continue to suck)

[@Toegrinder]

THIS VIDEO IS NO LONGER RELEVANT AFTER THE 10.1.5 REWORK - blizzard listened

[@ErikJohanzzon]

I really like these kind of videos, as well as gameplay ones! Its always interesting listening to the ins and outs of the specs

[@ItsGormey]

Fantastic video but as a frost mage it made me VERY sad. I pray my friend dosen't see this and scold me for playing frost. PS: I am very much enjoying your content keep going !

[@travyboat]

Go check out Manthan Frost Mage videos. He's pushing 80-90k dps. Even I can push 70-75k dps. I HAVE NO TROUBLE KEEP UP ICY PROPULSION. The numbers for Frost are there but everyone just seems to be ignoring it and talking about Arcane lol. Arcane absolutely SUCKS to play, it is not fun whatsoever. Yeah my Arc Barrage crit for 191k, COOL BUT MY OVERALL DPS IS STILL LESS THAN FROST. Tldr; Arcane is "top" for content creators and Pro WoW players. Frost is for the common man and out performs Arcane for regular players.

[@kito8968]

​@@travyboat if ur overall is worse than frost i have a bad news for you

[@andreiradu7851]

@@travyboat frost is good in keys, but in raid it isnt that gr8. The problem is the only 2 hard encounters in the raid have some downtime and high burst requirements. Sure you can do around the same damage as arcane on raszageth on overall, but some else has to make up for you not bursting intermission adds and shields. Even more than that, arcane is usually the carry on rasz shields and generally pushing in p2 and just makes the entire phase much easier

[@AvidPup1l]

This is great, you've clarified why movement heavy & downtime bosses were driving me insane. I managed to barely eek out enough dps for heroic Sire at the time

[@nathanliteroy9835]

Yeah, SIre was a nightmare boss for me when I him on Frost

[@Barlylol]

Please make more of these. Not only for arcane and fire, but tips and tricks as a mage for current content (Mythic raid, M+, Gearing, etc).

[@camiloavila6217]

mained frost since shadowlands, i had several mythic rank 1 parses and youre completely right, icy veins and icy propulsion actively punish frost mages for no reason, downtime is under anyones control, as arcane you can just delay your cooldowns, with frost there's nothing you can do to play around that, you just get fucked and thats it.

[@brandonmccary6779]

Would be awesome to see you continue to videos like this for the different specs if you have the time. Thank you! Awesome vid and explanation.

[@Sonatafade]

As much as I love playing frost, I still love this type of "here's why things are the way they are" informational videos. Great work as always!

[@tbtorres]

I HATE arcane mage mechanics, i press wrong buttons all the time, dung and raids are movement fiesta like i never saw before, 3 diff rotations for what idk. Im quitting the class, played as melee for 12 years and in DF i give a chance to my alt mage (i played as frost for years) main frost but when fire was good i got rotation really fast. But arcane is a chaos. Insane damage but not friendly at all. Im not so casual but im not hardcore either, i clear normal raid and did some heroic bosses this expansion, and fuck it, i will go back to my paladin or rogue, idk yet. Paladin isnt so good right now but at least have more synergy than arcane mage

[@philbona1193]

What are your thoughts on fire?

[@HeyheyReirei]

How much would it help the spec if you were to treat IV like outlaw adrenaline rush? Because if outlaw doesn’t use finishers then they cannot reduce the cooldown of adrenaline rush so they also wouldn’t be getting the cdr during downtime?

[@TJDieter2191]

Yeah, this analogy is a little weird because outlaw also needs uptime for cdr. I guess the difference is that outlaw's cds aren't very strong anyway. But icy veins is important to frost

[@TLTeo]

I honestly I feel like Icy Veins should just be a 90s cooldown. That way you don't need immense amounts of uptime to reset its cd, IV can be kept up for most practical raid encounters, and the disconnect between theoretical and practical dps closes significantly. And on top of that, Blizzard does not need to put much thought into reworking Mage things which, yeah.

[@ryanbeaty7122]

Super interesting. Please make more content like this

[@typh3x]

Frost is actually good in some bosses of this raid like Terrors and sennarth and maybe kurog, they should just make all mage specs have close to the same stat priority so we could switch specs from boss to boss, would make it alot more dynamic and fun. PRoblaly can do that as fire/frost. But yeah frost suck on bosses with downtime

[@itharim5884]

So with Frost being bad. what mage spec would you say rocks m+ in 10.0.5?

[@feore.5613]

Is there any way to play glacial spike?

[@cuddleslol]

Really great vid, thank you for making it! Definitely do more Some questions: Manather seems to be doing well on frost, he's posting a bunch of videos. Is he just godmode or? And would you consider fire having the same problems? E.g. boss downtime cucks fire's ignite, it's also very cooldown dependent and keeping that ignite rolling Thanks! Great stuff

[@markuslc1888]

manather is a very good player and in m+ he plays together with great tanks, who pull big, keep mobs in blizzard and near orb and pulls fast so that he won't loose IV, which you never got in pugs.

[@cuddleslol]

@@markuslc1888 yeah true, he also posted a mythic Teros and a Council vid tho

[@andreiradu7851]

@@cuddleslol well those are bosses that have no downtime

[@Toegrinder]

That depends how you define 'doing well'. Really depends what world rank you're raiding at Dungeons are a different beast, overall is not a good indicator of personal performance and is heavily dependent on your tank being good and your other DPS either being bad or playing in a way that lets you get more overall DPS without losing time on the dungeon (eg doing more prio damage, however thats usually the mages role)

[@KYALUCARD]

@@Toegrinder thanks for the great vid first,but I think it;s very intuitive that most players define 'doing well' as getting good overall dps in pug,there are too many random stuff in M+ pug,so we want flat dps to minimalize the tank's influence or simple good overall dps to let mages not rejected by team,I know burst dps/prio damage etc things are much more important in high rank content,but in pug it;s just totally different environment. I mean,mage has 3 dps specs and brand new talent system,we don't need all 3 spec/builds to fulfill the same role in game(like burst down danger big mobs,and again I know it's good),pretty sure lot's frost players just want a build/spec like BM or fury to chill in pug(easier rotation/won't be heavily influenced by your teammate/good or not bad overall dps ),noticed that most mage design recent years tend to build the class suit for high rank content or suit for top high rank players,even the mage community(like mods in DC) has this sort of phenomenon,don't know it;s good or bad,but it's really frustrated for average players(maybe pug environment in EU/NA servers is not that toxic? in asia it;s just like hell )

[@kooyking]

How would this same philosophy of “lost damage” and downtime translate into Fire with kindling? The less time you spend hitting the boss to generate Combustion back = the longer the period between combusts is = less combusts/less damage in the encounter. Arcane doesn’t really have this issue as the CDR comes from SP and such. The kindling thing would definitely be at a lesser degree than icy propulsion but just curious what you think.

[@bobhope5976]

FIre has heavy burst with combustion. It's much less punishing than losing uptime on icy veins. Not to mention fire has better dps when heavy movement is required.

[@TLTeo]

You are correct that it also applies to fire (especially kindling+skb builds which is all we've had for a long time), but it's not nearly as punishing as frost.

[@Geowall]

This type of content is the exact kind of content I'd like to see!

[@grilledleeks6514]

have icy veins also buff spell power while active?

[@ravaszvorosroka]

It spawns a free Rune of Power beneath you, yes

[@Taytorthot]

I do wish they would give IP a soft rework. Add something in like "Doubles the cdr it provides if IV is not active" or something like that. Would help after those stalls to get back into IV faster. Ultimately the issue won't be fixed unless IP/IV is gone and gets a full rework. But would be a nice change. The change we got with IP working outside of IV atleast made the spec less punishing. But still isn't there to be a viable HoF spec any time soon. Oh well. I'll just continue to play frost and slum around in low CE and have fun.

[@schwegburt3002]

Wouldn't be a bad idea for IP to just always give cdr when you Crit even outside of Icy Veins. As is, IP and TV are too dependent on each other's synergy. And it kinda drags the whole spec down as the Spec has to be tuned around said synergy with a byproduct being Frost is tuned around Veins always being up..

[@Taytorthot]

@@schwegburt3002 It does. It gives 1 sec cd even if IV isn't up. It's just the nature of having 30% more haste feeding into more casts so more crits so more uptime.

[@TLTeo]

Honestly I think IV should just have a 90s cooldown or something. Just make it short enough that you can realistically reset it in actual encounters. That way instead of sims with ~90% uptime and encounters with say ~60%, you get sims with ~100% uptime and encounters with ~90%, and the gap between the two narrows.

[@Kdaljeet]

great vid, more like this please. Is it viable for M+?

[@markuslc1888]

yes, especially this week since boss dmg isn't that important and the slow is very welcome

[@Toegrinder]

This is mostly focused on raids, I think all 3 mage specs are "fine" in mythic+ but I wouldnt consider any of them top tier

[@wiljosabre]

Thank you for the video. It was very informative and illustrative. I'm currently using Frost with my guild Heroic prog as I started with Arcane and sucked horribly (was my first time maining Mage, was Hunter and Balance Druid in Shadowlands) due to the overwhelming burst, mini burn, magi rotation plus movement and mechanic management and with frost I can do all mechs smoothly while keep learning the class and improve on all fights (DPS has been improving but still underperforming to more 'possitively tuned classes/specs). For M+ Arcane was even worse for me, I think as I get more confortable with Frost I could try Arcane to try and do higher dps for selfish purposes lol. Ty again for all the mage content!

[@AvidPup1l]

I've been following a similar path but reversed hah. I've been a long time frost player so I learned the mechanics in a comfortable spec, but I've switched to arcane now (at least for raiding). It's been a grind to learn arcane but the dps increase has been significant, Toegrinder, Manather, Forgy, and Phosphorus have been my go-to quadruple kings. I will say this though, weak auras have been a godsend to help keep track of arcane's many cooldowns!

[@duenorth4535]

THIS* I feel the same way with having to hit those correctly and if you dont it burns you hard.

[@duenorth4535]

what about Manathar pumping numbers in frost?

[@Toegrinder]

I addressed this in another comment - overall DPS is not a good indicator of success. Group impacts your overall DPS more than anything (aka a group that lets you do most of the AOE damage, either intentionally or by being bad). This is mostly focused at raids however

[@azcatryo42]

The exact reason I swapped away from the spec back to fire was due to the icy veins drop off. Pretty much spot on with this one.

[@aziraphale60]

So depressing. Absolutely fascinating though and I really want to know what you think of the 5% aura buff and how you would fix frost in detail.

[@denidiff]

I love this type of stuff. Please continue to upload!

[@jarredincanter]

Great vid Toegrinder, more of this please!

[@CrushburnGaming]

Good video Toegrinder. I hope someone at Blizzard will watch this and they will rework Frostmage so it will be better in the future (maybe 10.1) I hope we will get a rework since we only got one rework during beta and no other changes.

[@ricusdvrs]

Does this concider the upcoming frost buffs? And also, I really want to play fire, will it make a comeback somehow or should I forget the dream?

[@kooyking]

I mean the point of the video is to highlight the issues that Frost has with its gameplay design, regardless of tuning. If it gets buffed to shit, it might do better because it is so overtuned that people will play it.

[@demagescod9657]

The frost talent tree is a complete joke. Glacial assault for example, they could increase the damage by 500% and it would still be a garbage talent. Comet storm damage is bad and you have to take talents you don't necessarily want to get it. They need to throw the whole mess away and start over

[@crush2792]

i think rune of power is also an issue for frost tuning. They would make icy propulsion and thermal better to not lose future dmg but if they tune it that way, on fights with 0 downtime etc rune of power will have an insane amount of uptime

[@classicsignofgivinguponaus3685]

It wouldnt exactly be gamebreaking if you could just recast IV to pause the remaining CD on it. Then recast it again. It would promote a healthier gameplay of frost mage. Never understood it. Either that or lower the CD on IV to a 1 min CD, 20s timer with absolutely no interactions to reduce its CD or prolong its duration. Then tune spells around that. On a side note I've always wanted to go back to GS build and its never viable, its especially apparent this season/exp with all the interactions and pure dmg from icicles.

[@tomiv8117]

Lower cd on IV, lower effect on IP and TV to make it less punishing from downtime = win

[@valor144]

Thank you!!! I' ve been saying this since SL but I am no one! With your take on it hopefully it will come to the attention of the devs.

[@lendial]

incredibly insightful. makes sense why so many flat dmg specs do fine

[@joshuawoodard6998]

Frost is playable in prog. When you get more familiar with downtimes you can plan your icy-veins resets accordingly. Same way with M+ IV management gets easier and easier with pull familiarity. I pump with frost in raid and m+. Is it better than Arcane no, but my 99 frost parses are higher damage than my 80 Arcane parses. I just go with what I'm good at.

[@Manather]

The point of the video isn't to say frost is bad in each of these tiers, it isn't/wasn't, just to illustrate the recurring problems fight design introduces to its value in a progression settings on difficult bosses due to frost's playstyle in the past few years - which is a large reason it hasn't seen much progression/overall tier play.

[@joshuawoodard6998]

@@Manather so could a fix be 3 min cd, lasts 3 mins. ip/and tv still reset the CD for more frequent Rops?

[@Manather]

@@joshuawoodard6998 perhaps, but that removes part of the design of current frost - that 100% icy veins uptime is not guaranteed, its something you have to achieve through performing the rotation well/the fight well

[@joshuawoodard6998]

@@Manather well if we are back to it being performance based then what's the problem? Or better yet, what's the fix?

[@Zeph48]

hopefully blizz finds a way to fix these issues at some point, i do miss playing frost

[@Spibi]

it is a design diffrence it isnt an issue to fix

[@Flamdalf]

the only way to "Fix" it is with a rework

[@NoSkillsNoFun]

@@Spibi I dont get that argument. Than buff frost to demolish in fights that have no downtime / not much movement if thats their intended "role" or purpose. It can't be, that arcane does pretty much everything better aside from consistent damage and still pulls more dps on fights like terros.

[@Spibi]

@@NoSkillsNoFun yeah i dont disagree with you on that, it should be there balance wise, fire should be relevant on damage without externals too but here we are... they dont know what the fuck to do with these 2 atm balance wise.

[@Moz-.-]

Outlaw theoretically suffers from similar issues (losing uptime = less finishers = less cooldown reduction on Adrenaline rush = less AR uptime / worse uptime on good roll the bones buffs (on AR cast your next roll is guaranteed to be 2 or 5) which then reinforces the cycle of having less rtb buffs = less finishers = less AR uptime etc. I honestly think the real issue is that frost has bursty alternatives while all three rogue specs have relatively flat damage(assassination is a little bursty). same argument can be made about subtlety's shadow dance uptime / number of shadow technique procs in a fight. If one were to theoretically have UH DK be a rogue spec the same arguments would come up. While burst damage is superior (more controlled output / uses extra damage phases / loses less to downtime) In reality overall damage doesn't always mean meaningful contribution and depending on fight requirements there's a place for both flat and bursty damage profiles working in tandem.

[@classicsignofgivinguponaus3685]

Put a frost mage and outlaw on a target dummy, pause for 30s then continue. The rogue will beat the frost mage one hundred out of one hundred times in raw output. Not saying you're wrong here, I understand the arguement. Its just IV is not just a way for us to have more uptime for more finishers etc, the kit literally revolves around having it. My difference on a dummy is 23k dps. Thats like 33% buff to my output. Which might I add, is not a burst output its something we strive to maintain. But coming back to your comment, every single flat dmg profile dps spec suffers with downtime, just not as much as frost, and its not even close.

[@Moz-.-]

@@classicsignofgivinguponaus3685 my man, I made a theoretical argument. you're talking specifics of frost vs outlaw when one spec sims over 20k higher than the other in pure st. the tuning is simply not the same, sure OL has less downtime and will lose less from it, but when you're the highest simming spec in the game by a solid margin you can afford to lose more damage.

[@Salvatoreev]

make icyveins 1 min cd?

[@Limemulberry]

Cheers mate, my son's a frost mage main and now he's crying and won't come out of his room

[@itsKyyyle]

Removal of necrotic kind of eliminated a niche use of frost in keys as well

[@Forest0119]

just a new spell that freezes icy veins Buff. so u don't gain the effects of it and the duration does not change.

[@Spibi]

with lust opener or a second target during your icy veins lets you get your cd back like 15-16 sec before your next go, now at that point you can plan out whether to hold for intermission/downtime and use the current one dont pop next one try to play in it as long as you can if it falls off before downtime comes oh well fit whatever damge you can or consume current one early and send it early to fit it in one more before a downtime, just as you do plan your long ass 35 sec arcane burst windows i see no diffrence, in this argument.

[@andrewpugliese9927]

Frost did the ol' Switcherroo

[@sims2lovealot]

Honestly, I disagree. There are a few fights for sure that aren't in Frost's favour (Council and Rasz for example) but pretty much everything else can be slayed by frost if you know how to play the spec. I'm easily doing higher dps than other people in my group who have higher ilvl than me.

[@peepeepooopoo]

this is why season 2 frost mage in m+ was so well designed. you get crazy amounts of cdr from aoe icy propulsion and then you get a choice, do I re-cast for a rune and risk losing my icy veins, or do I hold it and use it when my current one runs out. that was good, it was just hard to tune between m+ and raid because of target count differential. my solution? reduce icy veins base cooldown by a minute but keep the buff duration the same. aura nerf as needed.

[@Toegrinder]

Season 2 Frost mage was horribly designed IMO. You needed to abuse a poorly thought out conduit to maintain 100% uptime on a 40% damage buff to compensate for the fact that Blizzard hasn't bothered tuning a real AOE kit

[@peepeepooopoo]

@@Toegrinder it's fair that it wasn't well designed in the sense that it's really hard to balance, but to me the gameplay loop of abusing that conduit felt like a super fun spec identity in m+. I loved being heavily rewarded for making shatter combos. I would have said make rune of power be 20% amp for frost but then it would be weak in raid since it can't get as many runes there.

[@critter8591]

Do you think adding IV to the reset spells for cold snap would help/fix this issue? It would make down time less punishing as the upside and we lose a defensive (2nd iceblock) as a negative. Making it a meaningful choice. I’d love your thoughts on this. Thanks for the content.

[@Manather]

With the way rune of power works, that would introduce more strict uses around when you are lusting/burst phases of the boss so it would likely not have the effect you are envisioning.

[@rozen1215]

blizzard has ruined mages by design. And they did it on purpose knowing what the outcome would be.

[@714acedeck]

the really annoying thing to me, about the evolution of dps cooldowns over time, is that they become "expected dps" and in a lot of cases are supposed to be up all the time. i recently watched a video of a fire mage in a high m+ key and he's almost never not in combustion. what is that kind of game design!!! he's got like 80% or more of combustion uptime. and i watched it and i thought, i just don't know that i have the energy to play the game at such an on-edge, constantly gogogo kind of pace all the time, for an entire m+ key, over and over, every day, every week. i like playing the game, but it would be nice if cooldowns actually felt like a special moment of power gain, that you can plan around when you use it, rather than a buff or "super saiyan state" that you are expected to keep up virtually all the time. and the other thing i feel is that the current WoW design really favors melee, since all of their abilities are instant, and they can simply move and continue to cast their rotation at the same time, doing mechanics does not affect them like it does casters, so they can maintain "dps cooldown" buffs much more easily, which just incentivizes playing melee more, but melee dps is already the most popular role in the game, it does not need bonus incentives.

[@Toegrinder]

For many classes I think they are. Its a massive issue for Fire & Frost but especially Fire. Combustion doesnt feel special & fun if its up 50% of the time

[@optimusd3854]

IV is garbage, a haste buff to spam frostbolts to get more IV procs except that it feels chunky and you spend half the time not casting frost bolt as you have to dump flurry's and lances.

[@TheArcNgeL]

This ! It's a long time I wonder why Blizzard hate us frost mages so much T_T

[@lostheboss7938]

Yup rerolling from mage. Not interested in arcane way too complex of a spec and blizzard doesnt know how to balance frost.

[@poupashelderbarbosa]

this is the type of content i needed :D ty

[@s_a_n_e]

very straightforward explanation of fact

[@markuslc1888]

frost is way too uptime dependent, the spec design is boring. st sucks 2t cleave is ok but still compared to destro its pathetic. talents like IP, TV need a redesign as well as GS which is undertuned af.

[@filiperwky_7871]

frost used to be my offspec to learn encounters on the first weeks but it is so unplayable rn

[@ralecgos3631]

Icy Veins being a 3 minute cooldown for 30% Haste is too long. 3 freaking minutes for WHAT. Icy Propulsion needs deleted/Thermal Void nerfed or deleted, and Icy veins should be no more than a 1 minute to 1.5 minute cooldown. Or just give us a new cooldown like Arcane Surge.

[@gonzalomedina7111]

what about fire? owo

[@Devonellah]

Arcane used to be so amazing -- Ive also loved Frost Mage but this is HORRIBLE to play -- I do think that Glacial Spike is tedious and unfun - This used to be my main alt -- and in Legion Arcane was amazingly FUN - I am so disappointed in seeing what Blizzard has done to them....

[@wesselvandorsten]

This video saved my marriage! Trey (my wife's boyfriend) now lets me sleep on the couch! Thank you so much!

[@ChronicHabit42]

nice breakdown

[@JimJoyyy]

ill be honest mate, while i do completely agree with everything in the video itself im nearly certain that most people will just see the title and piss off with the 'hurrdurr frost bad in keys' mentality like people tend to do

[@crandolph1986]

Bro I play frost I know they do. How many times I have been asked what spec and say frost and not get invited is nutty.

[@finneas9894]

make glacial spike great again. Frosts current playstyle has been horrible since early BFA. Its literally a 2-3 button spec with barely any thought required to play it. GS + ebonbolt playstyle was much more enjoyable

[@denizzard]

Send it to blizz bro, great content

[@phulcq6716]

Maybe it's just me but frost is simming about 5k higher in single target than either arcane or fire, and seems to be scaling much harder with gear. Combined with how easy it is to play I find it does very well in practice on most of the raid fights.

[@Toegrinder]

Frost mage scaling is a hidden problem right now, the spec might explode next tier or the tier after. Traditionally Blizzard have tried to avoid scaling disparities between specs but mage currently has no dev so this might fly under the radar

[@jaaviee]

game the algorithm team

[@josephpacker3945]

Is this just raiding? Feels fine in keys.

[@TheValkyron]

Icy propulsion and thermal void do have the problem you said, and overall it would be better to work without them. However, you can still balance with these mechanics by just letting icy veins reset faster. On non-downtime fights that would mean you can cast icy veins ahain before your buff runs out, whoch means more rune of power uptime, but you can give a small aura nerf to compensate. But generally, idk about you but i hate rune of power, i hate icy propulsion, i think glacial spile os way more fun, and i think aoe kit makes no sense because it doesn't work at all with the shatter idea at all. Blizzard+orb is just a self-contained mechanic that you could slap on to any spec

[@SuavePeanuts]

Without frost then mage is basically unplayable for a vast majority of people. Arcane is so complicated and the odds of it staying on top are so small that its not worth trying to figure that enigma out. Fire is also just boring :/

[@Razzmacgazz69420]

I rolled a frost mage in DF as my main and oh god what a bad choice. It sucks so much. Im always the only mage in raid and its so rare to find another mage in m+. I hope blizzard quickly fixes frost as its really cool to play and challenging to keep your dps high but the pay off is so bad as your dmg is never high enough

[@Cantouchthis1234]

You’re presentation style over the logs reminded me of Khan Academy. Please make more videos like this, weekly

[@Polixvondeutschland]

My raid group is pretty lax and only tries for AOTC. The mages are myself and one other dude. He plays frost and the damage difference between him and I is absolutely insane. He doesn't want to play arcane because its hard, but yeesh, hes getting out DPS'd by tanks on every fight.

[@smokeydaburr7719]

at that point i think frost is hard for him too lmao

[@superdarroch]

Yeah that's just him being trash. I out dps the other mage in my guild and I'm frost and he is arcane. Skill issue.

[@SuavePeanuts]

thats not a frost issue... in my aotc group I am usually top 3-5 its clearly a him issue.

[@angelabadzhiev9036]

This is why the Frost Spike should be the dominant build for frost to be relative

[@radakant156]

A great video, explaining some fundamental things. Seems desperate though :-)

[@slobdawgs]

great video

[@trondhelseth5459]

Toegrinder is most definitely wrong about Frost Mage, it is obviously an A tier class now that ray of frost has received 40% buff!

[@disconnect0505]

this video is highly misleading and rude and leads the community the way it already is, and that doesnt help the game in the long run. unsubbed.

[@disconnect0505]

@@jubbin4849 /yawn

[@SvyatTanyaVlog]

If you don't know how to play with frost mage, it's dosen't mean that he is suck XD Before relase video like that - try to learp how to play with the class/spec Thank you!!!

[@Toegrinder]

I've got Hall of Fame multiple times on Frost Mage + Rank 1 Mythic+ title on Frost mage but thank you for the feedback

[@1337PeeZy]

Sad to see frost in such a bad spot. Speaking of bad spot. I have been trying to make fire work. I’m pushing M+ now and I know my rotation very well. I’m only 385 IL. But my damage is abismal overall. I lead some of the fights single target. Usually because of Time Warp. Key word: some. But still do literally millions less overall damage. And I don’t think the buffs coming to flame strike and living bomb are going to help at all. What’re your thoughts on fire right now? Does it get better (close the gap in dps) with more item level? Or is this a “switch to arcane” moment. Which I really don’t enjoy right now. Fish for procs with A-E then evocate. Like 20 seconds before the fight starts. Yeah. No.

[@classicsignofgivinguponaus3685]

fire pumps :D

[@1337PeeZy]

@@classicsignofgivinguponaus3685 it starting to. Just hit 413 and I’m slapping pretty hard. Didn’t notice any good damage until 17-18 keys. The harder the dungeon the better I seem to do. I have a few 20’s under my belt at this point.

[@lasekmmmk7785]

Now it's good.