Why General Aviation is Failing

[@WestAirAviation]

Every-time I tell someone I'm a pilot, without fail they say "I always wanted to be a pilot, but then..." and the then is always different, but more often than not the excuse is the price. The 1,500 rule only exacerbated an already reprehensible system. I went to ERAU in '07. One of my dorm mates was a foreign national from Korea. She graduated, went home, and was flying 777's while I was still in Cessna's.

[@MuzixMaker]

Remind me not to fly on Korean Airlines.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@MuzixMakerThe question is, why is the 1500 hour rule still in place? The commercial ticket only requires 500 hours and use to be enough to fly commercial airliners.

[@MuzixMaker]

@@Mistamannfour commercial is 250 hours. Blame reactionary Congresscritters.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@MuzixMaker Opps, thanks for the correction! That is even worse.

[@sircartier2260]

The 1500 Hour rule doesn’t make sense considering the high cost adjusted for inflation esp. if u gonna work as a CFI with sh!tty pay

[@TheJoesenOne93]

I have 100s of friends with an interest in aviation. From my personal experience , the interest has never declined. In fact, every few months, I find dozens of new people in their 20s wanting to learn how to fly. The price and barrier to entry increased. No one can afford to pursue their interest in it if costs don't come down. Wage growth has stagnated since the 80s, but the cost of ownership and operations continues to rise.

[@jonasbaine3538]

Even people who can afford are frustrated with excessive maintenance wait times to get repairs done. Not uncommon for personal planes to spend weeks and months sitting in maintenance shop.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@jonasbaine3538 The problem is that A&Ps are open to liability for the maintenance they performed while working in GA. If an A&P works for major companies or the airlines they are not held liable. What I see in the future for maintenance at GA is owners will also need to be A&P IAs: another cost to being a pilot in GA.

[@AlphaMale_1]

Amature aviation is for the birds.

[@Airplanefish]

I've got a perfectly good flying aircraft with no damage history for sale. It has no expensive parts on it. Simple to fix. Simple to fly and cheap on gas. Only $22K. Aeronca Chief. If you don't live at high altitude it's a cheap way to purse flying and own. Not all planes are expensive

[@billl7551]

Inflation is a killer, it brought US industry to its knees in early 80s and now reborn. Both avoidable and tragic. No one links to the real cause. Gold was $35 oz in 1968, it is around $2000 today, a 57X increase. Peoples life savings being drastically diluted. The cost switch can not be flipped and drive up costs hugely and the follow with wages only to have them diluted with increased taxes. This is the root cause, not the interest to become pilots. I built and RV7 and it is very economical to fly. I am able to do my own maintenance. Even kits now have inflated greatly and lead times for delivery and 18 months. Our YE event had 20 kids a few days ago and they were super interested in becoming pilots. My kit manufacturer is now in dire condition, and may go the way of Cessna, Piper and a dozen others. This is a voter issue, and tragic for all. People have to wake up.

[@thomasp.shortm.d.1762]

I had a 172 and sold it last year for much more money than I paid for it 15 years before. The yearly costs of flying it were $13,000 a year. Everything had gone uo. Gas, taxes,hangar,annual etc.Was just doing short cross country trips. Miss it but retirement and a lower income is creeping in. A new 172 is now $450,00 !.

[@AlpineHiker]

Add to that, Predatory school loans. ATP Drops over HALF of every class out of the program, Interest rates on those loans are 20% I got quoted over $16,000 in fees for $10,000 student loan to get my PPL. NO WONDER AVIATION IS DYING. after PPL, i'd need another $40,000 to be able to get my commercial to start earning money flying. I can Only imagine what all the fees on that loan would add up to....

[@Cle_M3]

@@AlpineHikerTry the Aviate program

[@reubenmorris487]

@@AlpineHiker I ate the costs. I had "problems" starting out, needed more time in instrument, had 3 instructors for commercial, and some other issues. I still made it out in one piece, bachelor's degree, and A&P license. I just ate all the costs and spent the time.

[@SirBeardsly]

Cost of aircraft and cost of parts and maintenance. It's insane. I make decent money, and I'm still struggling with the cost of everything. And I'm an A&P.

[@dannydaw59]

I was told a new 172 was $1.5 million. $450k is a lot better.

[@brockjennings]

Earning my private pilots license in the 1980s literally saved my life. I was a teenager lacking direction and somewhat of an outcast. My father made a deal with me that he would pay for half the cost of me getting my certificate. Ground school taught me to focus and learn concepts that I could directly apply in the cockpit. Passing my check ride boosted my confidence and self-worth, which paid dividends later in life.

[@Backup-xyz123]

@brockjennings I love hearing "rags to riches", or in this case "lost to found" stories such as yours. Thanks for sharing. God Bless.

[@barrymccockner3683]

I feel the same way! Almost done with my private pilots license, but the fact that I can operate a plane which takes a lot of hard work to learn theoretically and practically, I’ve grown confident in a lot of other areas of life, I’m 21 and also felt like I had no direction in life, finally acquiring a complex knowledge and skill and just accomplishing something hard has given me the fortitude to press on in other areas of life, also taking away that nagging feeling of having no skills.

[@dennisstoesz]

So very true

[@SkySim]

Happy your dad was there for you.

[@chipsawdust5816]

@@barrymccockner3683 Great story! Now get your instrument rating and see how much you didn't know before. I mean that - it was an eye opener for me.

[@davidgiles5030]

Like so many have mentioned in the comments, the costs became untenable. I went from ownership,to renting, to just can't afford it. Love to fly,but eating is more important.

[@boogerwood]

But due to the flood of people into the schools, they are restricting renting to only students, making it almost mandatory to own your own airplane or be fortunate enough to live somewhere near a decent flying club in order to have access to airplanes. Flying is such a rapidly, perishable skill, you must fly frequently to remain proficient. Your own aircraft is about the only way to maintain that. This will create a steep separation of general aviation as a means to a career versus those like me who fly for hobby.

[@jimcaufman2328]

I learned to fly years ago for free in the military. After I got out and transitioned to civilian flying. I retired off the Boeing 777 over 20 years ago. Over the years since I have stopped by many airports just to look around. Problem is I can't get in most small airports because of locked doors and barbed wire fences. A few months ago, I stopped by my local airport to rent an airplane with an instructor to fly for a hour or so. Was told I could not do it without clearance from Homeland Security. Just for a little history I flew the first originating passenger flight in the United States after 9-11. Newark to Telavi. If you want more people to fly do away with all the BS, teardown the barbes wire fences and unlock the doors.

[@viciousattackvideo]

There are still down home, mom and Pop airports. They are dwindling, however. We need to step in and save those at all costs, especially if they are near enough to desirable areas, because you know what happens when developers I am such a property. Regional airports and anything with jet center in the title, forget about it, however. If you’re not a jet or turbine, who was bringing tons of these and fuel sales, you are an inconvenience at best. 0:24

[@brucecolburn8589]

7

[@johnpro2847]

we had open field at YCAB ,my airfield.Yobos were pinching fuel from the tanks.and subject to other damage by vandals.Years ago if you enter most airfields without restriction.The population has changed unfortunately.

[@jackr2287]

Tearing down the fences and unlocking the doors is gonna be a hard sell I imagine with the price tags on these birds and post 9/11. Though smaller uncontrolled rural airfields might be fairly easy to access for those in the know.

[@jimbangerter903]

Loved how this article never once mentioned Piper!

[@stevenwomack9574]

I managed to get my pilot's license back in the 80s. Since then, I've barely accumulated 150 hours, largely because of the cost. I love flying; it's the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on :-) But it's heartbreaking that the costs have kept me from being the pilot I've always wanted to be.

[@Matt-mo8sl]

I feel ya. I got my private in 1992 and in 31 years I have only accrued 340 hours. Just too much money when I have a mortgage, 2 car payments, a credit card payment and everything else that costs way more nowadays. Throw in 3 teenage kids, not much flying for this guy.

[@Flow-.-]

@@Matt-mo8sl Where you ever interested in going to CPL or did you already have a good steady job when you got that PPL?

[@timothy____1989]

Same here. PPL in the late 80s, slowly worked my way to an instrument, multi-engine, and commercial in the 90s, military deployments, 2x enrolled in a CFI program, then 9/11 hit and the mom& pop schools shuttered, taking my block time payment with them and disappearing while I was again deployed each time. The VA kept turning their flight reimbursements on then off again at the only university within driving distance with a flight program, plus they weren’t too keen on training a CFI who hadn’t come up thru their program. Then the 1500 hour rule kicked in and now that I’m 60 my dream of flying for the a living is almost dead. Last flight was in 2017-I tried to go take a currency flight with an instructor and after a 1.3 hour flight in a C-172 I was out close to $500. 375+ hours TT, 75+ hours multi engine…just for the memories, I guess. Would still like to be a CFI someday.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

Exactly, try to maintain IFR

[@Matt-mo8sl]

@@Flow-.- Nah, never really had any desire to get a commercial rating or instrument but bow in my early 50's, i wish I had done it but too much money.

[@sploop_boop3415]

I used to work at a semi reasonably priced flight school and the amount of kids I had to turn down was heartbreaking. The cost has just gotten too high unless you come from super rich family, and then you’d probably fly as a hobby not as a career. There’s no way we’re gonna stop the pilot shortage with this environment.

[@derektinsley9500]

Airlines will have to follow the lead set up in Europe where airlines train zero time pilots and put them in the cockpit when they get their commercial with ratings

[@philippehendrickx1109]

​@@derektinsley9500indeed. Those ab initio programs will be the only way to go. I heard some US carriers have started moving in that direction already.

[@tomdavis1694]

Single pilot ops to be followed by unmanned remote control aircraft will be their response.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@tomdavis1694 Single Pilot ops for commercial passenger is a no go. If a pilot becomes incapacitated the passengers are effed! The FAA will not allow it. Unmanned remote control/remote piloted ops defeats the purpose of not having pilots: to have remote control/remote pilot ops, you need pilots to perform/monitor flight operations. The FAA will never allow fully autonomous commercial ops: there will always be a person-in-the-loop!

[@maelstrom2313]

@@Mistamannfour They will not allow it yet as the technology simply isn't ready. However, automated flight will inevitably exceed human controls in terms of safety and at that point it will only be a matter of time. Humans are exceedingly good at complex tasks but our upper limits are static. Machine intelligence has no such upper limit and once they become safer than humans the public will eventually demand the safer option.

[@jgbaugh]

Things are ridiculous. I just purchased a CHT probe. In 2014 it cost $72 (and was over priced). Today it cost $227. Inflation doesn’t account for it. Someone is gouging someone. This is a common scenario when trying to maintain aircraft.

[@geraldheinig1473]

Totally agree. I do my own maintenance (I have an EASA Part-66 licence) and my last annual for my Mooney M20G, for which I did *all* the maintenance work still cost me over €1000! More than a grand for a signature and some paperwork is a complete rip-off!

[@davidsklar1988]

Man fing man

[@tdkeyes1]

One word, insurance. Blame Trial Lawyers looking for deep pockets for a widow who doesn't care that her dead husbands crappy flying killed him and would rather blame the maker of a defective CHT sender, who is 1% guilty of causing his distracted flying, yet is assigned 100% of the damages. The USA desperately needs Tort Reform, as evidenced by the personal injury billboards lining the highways.

[@RetiredLover]

The same applies to anyone who buys a yacht and has any repairs done in a marina….especially in the Windward Islands.

[@geraldheinig1473]

@@tdkeyes1 This may be true for the US, I would say less so for Europe. Europe has the problem of an over-regulated maintenance ruleset plus sky-high taxes on fuel. The costs of obtaining an EASA Part 145 certification for a repair shop (equivalent to a certified FAA maintenance certification) are prohibitive and are incurred annually, massively raising maintenance costs for owner-pilots and simultaneously preventing any competition from entering the market. The result is a small market, preventing economies of scale, massive demand from the existing customer base (ie. pilots-owners) and highly restricted supply (due to over-regulation). The end result are hugely inflated prices and poor service, and ultimately, degraded safety.

[@gregoryschmidt1233]

My grandfather had a Cub with floats in rural Northern Wisconsin in the 50's. I think he took about 2 lessons from a buddy of his, and then he was off and flying! I'm not sure if he ever actually got certified. I know he took 3 of his buddies up to Canada on a float-fishing trip. They just followed highways until they found a lake that looked good. It's probably a miracle that he never killed himself or anyone else, but man, the freedom...

[@Mr_Bones.]

I wish we had the best of both world’s today. Cheap flying lessons and highly effective modern training. I will say this, it has not escaped my notice that the majority of (but not all) of modern GA accidents are by older pilots 👀

[@derektinsley9500]

@@Mr_Bones.In part because that is where the money is.

[@not_listening2792]

@@Mr_Bones. Why does everyone want other people to work for cheap, and they get paid top dollar?

[@davidholubetz177]

@gregoryschmidt1233 Your grandpa was a king. Lived like a real man and if he'd crashed he would have died like one too. Lived in a world not yet taken over by pussys. From a fellow cheesehead.

[@justinkelley9700]

Nearly the same story here. Grandfather had a cub, no floats but never got more than a couple lessons. Him and my father knocked the wings off overshooting there landing twice and rebuilt them before ultimately my grandmother said the cub had to go lol

[@jordanharvey5739]

Heartbreaking. All I’ve ever wanted to do is fly since I was young. Watching the goalposts move farther and farther away each time I approach them rips my heart out

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

I'm sure the person that had either inherited the money and wealth or gained wealth that can fly feels for you. It sucks. However if you really want to fly your going to have to push for better wages, and reforms.

[@davidholubetz177]

@jordanharvey5739 Make friends with a private pilot, someone who has a small GA plane. Offer to chip in for gas, take them out afterwards for a few beers. There's lots of pilots out there who would love to share an hour in the air with you, would prob even let you take the stick or yoke for a while. Flying's not hard. Cost may push a license out of reach but it shouldn't break your heart.

[@joehall7883]

About the only way most of us can fly is through a flying club, which I'm blessed to be a part of..look for one of those around You.

[@davidholubetz177]

@@joehall7883 That's a great solution IF they have an airplane that fits your mission profile, budget, etc.

[@Backup-xyz123]

@jordanharvey5739 you may want to look at power paragliding. It is a very affordable way into aviation. Regular gliders are much more affordable as well than general aviation

[@123cp8]

I stopped flying because I simply couldn’t justify, much less afford, the cost. Kind of heartbreaking.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

@MrGriff305 And why should it end with him? Why should it be he achieved it and yet we can't no that is not acceptable. He shouldn't have been forced to stop due to unfair prices and we shouldn't be denied for the same thing.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

@MrGriff305 You can have all of this with capitalism. The issue isn't capitalism, the issue is that in a capitalist system there has to be a check and balance that insures that people can and are allowed to afford to buy goods or luxuries and that companies and the government doesn't abuse via corruption and greed. That means better wages to ensure they keep up with inflation, reforms on companies and legal systems. I do believe like a vehicle a person should have good judgement and responsibility and proper training to use a aircraft. Unlike a car there is plenty of more things to understand to properly use a aircraft, not everyone can fly and so yes there must be rules and laws in place for safety and responsibility. That being said I feel that at most light aircraft should be available for the public at large with reasonable prices (especially if wages increase to match the current prices in today's economy) Look I don't think it should be like everyone can have the money to afford say a Diamond or a vintage WWII fighter, but at most being able to have a decent job and being able to afford say a starting aircraft like a cessna or similar should be agreeable. Not to mention if you get more people to fly, you keep other people in business. airfields, cargo transport, tourism etc. Honestly I'm getting tired of hearing about middle class people being pushed out due to rising cost for a hobby or life style while the rich ends up having exclusivity to it.

[@tangobear3536]

In a nation where buying a house is so difficult. owning a plane is completely off the table. Most people go broke on three things: house, car, healthcare. There is a dwindling number of people who can afford anything beyond those 3 things.

[@dannydaw59]

I paid off all that stuff. I'm gunna try and get a vfr license within a few years.

[@eeroala5132]

Very true. As a nation we are not as prosperous as we were in the previous generation.

[@davidgiles5030]

Well said. The # 1 cause of personal bankruptcy in the USA is a medical situation. If you lived in Canada as I do that wouldn't be an issue. Our problem is runaway infaltion and wages not keeping up.

[@kennyg1358]

​@@davidgiles5030those are symptoms of Canada's problem. Most Canadians have embraced socialism of which economic ruin is a feature not a bug.

[@Falke615]

Add the fact that most of our generation is burdened with student loans with compound interest. You can't expect people to pay for luxury items while in debt slavery.

[@back2basics668]

WHEN an airplane costs more than some houses and the rental costs per hour are more than a MONTHLY CAR payment- .......yeah there is a BIG PROBLEM!!!!

[@MikeRetsoc]

You are doing it wrong.

[@back2basics668]

I am open to learning, let me know what I am doing wrong@@MikeRetsoc

[@windhover2021]

I was a highly motivated private pilot by the time I graduated high school. Some of the best fun I've had. But I had to stop flying shortly thereafter because I never made enough money to keep going. I ended up with somewhere around 70 hrs. My passion to fly is just as strong as it was back then but I simply can't afford it.

[@shamandgg]

I used to be a private pilot, it was great adventure. Stopped at around 200fh as I couldn’t afford it anymore.

[@nofurtherwest3474]

But can you get hired to fly cargo and stuff? Or small planes for business executives?

[@bradfordparker6639]

No he cannot.

[@yoshuaposhua25]

@@nofurtherwest3474not until he reaches 250 hours and completes all requirements for the commercial pilots certification. if they’re in america that is

[@starstray4326]

@@nofurtherwest3474you need at the minimum 500 and most places still want 1000 on top of all your certs

[@SeaHusker54]

Originally went to college to become a professional pilot but dropped out after a year. The cost of going to school and pilot training was astronomical. 7 years later I finally went back and got my PPL, but costs were still through the roof. I haven’t flown since and that was 3.5 years ago :/

[@Mk1SpitfireGuy]

Move that decimal place one spot to the right, and it's me.

[@linkfreeman1998]

​@@Mk1SpitfireGuywell, might as well forget about the license altogether, if you really cant do it anymore. Not to be disrespectful but sometimes, some things are so painful to learn, yet u cant use it in day to day basis, that u wish u just actually forget about it.

[@SeaHusker54]

@@linkfreeman1998 that’s pretty much the whole point of my comment. Though I’d disagree on the wanting to forget all my training/knowledge part. I found a job in the aviation world working on Flight Simulators. The basic Private Pilot Aeronautical knowledge is truly invaluable working in any field of aviation. I still would love to be a pilot one day/get all my ratings, but that dream is more than likely going to move on without me.

[@ABQSentinel]

The dream of General Aviation from the Golden Age of Aviation, right after WWll was that aviation would be the next great adventure for American families. Sadly, it has died on the vine. It was a combination of things from over-reaching, heavy-handed government agencies (*cough*FAA*cough*) and their ridiculous medical requirements which, as we have seen recently, don't actually make aviation any safer. Medical reforms to improve access to aviation were too-little/too-late. Then there was the skyrocketing costs of training, the ridiculous inflation rates on 50 year-old planes that were originally meant to be able to purchased, brand new, by the average family, but now cost as much as a house! Let's also not forget skyrocketing fuel costs (thanks to America-LAST energy policies implemented by certain politicians). Oh, and then we have the vanishing landscape of airports, thanks to the unending procession of Karens and their complaints about airplane noise even though THEY were the ones who bought a house next to an airport. And let's go ahead and round out this list by mentioning the ridiculously long set of testing standards being implemented by far too few DPEs who, themselves, have no standards by which THEY operate. Yeah, the dream of General Aviation is dead for all but the top 10%.

[@AngryVet44]

1. USA Oil companies have drilling rights they ARE NOT USING TO KEEP OIL AND GAS PRICES UP. 2.The USA is also the largest exporter of oil and gas. The XL pipeline though Americans think pumping heavy Canadian Tarsand oil across our entire country (risking poisoning our water or explosions that kill everything for a mile) to Texas to be refined at Koch industries refineries is going to benefit AMERICANS in reality it is THEN SHIPPED TO CHINA AND ABROAD NOT FOR USE IN THE USA. 3. Maybe you should demand that we nationalize the HIGHLY TAXPAYER SUBSIDIZED oil and gas industry as it intentionally price gouged the hell out of you for its own benefit. 🙄 (WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVEN UNDER ANY “communist” DEMOCRAT) But even Joe Biden thinks that corporate America should be able to do what ever it wants including price gouge the hell out of American citizens. He only MEEKLY asks the gas companies to lower their prices. BECAUSE…. “He’s a capitalist, He BEAT the socialist” Bernie Sanders 🙄

[@ABQSentinel]

@@AngryVet44 Amazing... every word of what you just said is wrong.

[@jackr2287]

Without an existing pilot with the correct licensing willing to take pity on you these days... training is effectively out of the question. I'm limited to simulators and a vague hope that maybe things will improve.

[@skyboy1956]

wait ! You threw a pity party and didn't invite me ? ! ? ! ? !

[@boatlover2296]

It’s been my experience over the last 40 years that (along with everything else!) general aviation has become very expensive, and bogged down with regulation.

[@MarioLoco03]

I am a student pilot who is funding my own lessons. It is expensive as hell. $145/hr for plane rental, $65/hr for instructor time, $6+ per gallon of 100LL...Im about 1/3 of the way done, its too late to turn back and quit because i have several thousands of dollars already put into this. I wish this was cheaper and more attainable. Im doing it just for GA, not trying to work as a pilot.

[@CaptainCreampie69]

I am an airline pilot at a legacy carrier here in the US and I will sum it up why it is failing. A new 172 costs something like $350k. For a 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engine, rolled sheet metal and 2 LCD screens with the same accelerometers I have in my IPhone. It weighs less than a car with less power than a modern new Honda Civic engine and costs 14 times the price of the aforementioned car. It is absurd. If it was 70k or even maybe 100k it would be successful but the corporations are greedy and they say it is because of aircraft certification and research but the 172 is the same plane other than avionics that flew in 1955. 70 years of the same plane saying that cost is for research and development is a garbage argument.

[@cdyjv118]

You cant just blame corporations and greed. State/Fed Tax increases on said businesses and govt regulation are also big contributors. Everything else checks

[@marblox9300]

This moving the goal posts farther away isn't just in Cessna 172s - it is with Houses, Cars, and just having a normal life.

[@hnewman2907]

The price is a barrier but there’s also people who want to do many things and never do because they just don’t go for it, no matter if it’s aviation, starting a business, or in general a dream of theirs. It’s up to you

[@AncoraImparoPiper]

Not going for it even though there is no price barrier ( maybe you or your parents are rich), is one thing. Not being able to go for it due to cost, is another. The two cannot be compared.

[@smoothdance]

I’ll tell you what happened to general aviation. It’s not rocket science. It’s too expensive.

[@Thermalburn]

Yeah its definitely the cost of everything. My dad was a pilot and I grew up in a middle class family. He was able to buy his own Piper, and we would fly almost every weekend. Now I'm older with a family of my own, and consider myself middle class, but I can barely afford groceries let alone the costs associated with a private plane. I kick myself for not just getting my license when I was younger while my dad had the plane; I've been flying since I was 8 years old, and did everything except the checkride because of some stuff that happened in my life. I feel like I can never have that opportunity again. Oh well, I'll play flight simulators forever I guess...

[@icecold9511]

VR for me. Bests what we had 20 years ago.

[@brandtbecker1810]

The "American Dream" is only had when one is asleep.

[@mylifeisalie6781]

Currently going through my PPL classes and for 57 hours of flight, it has cost 15.5k... it is utterly insane

[@Dwaynesaviation]

Where are you training? I'm training in Poland, my zero to ATPL is €50,000... I couldn't afford anything in England where I live, they are all upwards of €120,000 here. It's cheaper to fly to Poland every week

[@mylifeisalie6781]

@@Dwaynesaviation North east United States (Ohio)

[@chriscusick6890]

I learned to fly in the early 70's and it cost me $1,500. I used to rent a C-150 for $7.50/ hour wet.

[@rylanthompson5844]

@@chriscusick68907.50$ an hr?? What the hell?? That’s at LEAST like $100 today

[@Brettjomsland]

I feel you. I've got my PPL and am working on my IR. Spent about $20,000 for 130 hours. It's brutal. Work a lot, study ground 4+ hours a day, and watch a lot of KZbin videos to learn. How I stumbled upon this one, only thing that keeps me going is going outside, looking up, and watching many other pilots 37,000ft in the air live their dreams.

[@timothy____1989]

Back in the 80s-90s there were 5-6 airports around our city where a person could either enroll in a flight school, rent a plane or join a flying club with the joys of part-ownership of a C-172. Now there’s only 3-4 airports, only 1 has a flight school associated with a university program, 1 other airport has a Cessna for rent, if you can afford it, and all the other airports are commercial or executive only. There was one flying club a few years back with a waiting list measured in decades, and now it’s gone as well.

[@3DMVR]

that waiting lidt probably why its gone

[@peteorengo5888]

This is the most comprehensive video I have seen about the subject. All the factors mentioned are significant. It’s sad to see GA decline.

[@patrickgreen6902]

I started flying in California in the 70’s, my ground school and achieving my private pilots license, cost me $1,800, as the years passed, instrument, multi engine and multi engine certification was paid for by military benefits, as the years went buy, you couldn’t find anything to fly, Van Nuys shied away to smaller planes and big jets took over, my former air field in Lancaster closed its tower, and now here in London, you cannot find any big iron to fly, seems like many things have changed.😢

[@Fitch93]

I don't even know where to start, but you pretty well covered it all in this video. What's interesting is the seeming massive disconnect between the Manufacturers and their intended customer base. Look at the DA-40 you mentioned, it's a 4 seat twin, and it STARTS at well north of $1million. If you have that kind of money to spend on a plane you're sure as hell NOT going to be buying a 4 seat reciprocating twin. There also the overall GA communities refusal to recognize or even acknowledge their number 1 problem. They want to wring their hands and have seminars and conventions and conferences where they talk about how to grow the GA community, but if you bring up cost, they throw you out of the proverbial board room window. Further, what token nod they do make towards costs, in the form of scholarships, are all aimed at a single demographic..a 16-19 year old kid, a kid who has ZERO interest in GA flying, his only goal is to go fly the big jets. Yet they continue to award the scholarships on the hope that maybe someday, when that kid retires from the airlines in 40 years, he'll have saved enough up to buy a 4 place single and come to their Fly-Ins. In my own personal view, right now the GA communities biggest hurdle, is itself.

[@AllenPortman]

I am 65 and wanted to start back flying since completing 60 hours back in the late 80s, but even being retired with majority of my major bills paid off still can only fly a few hours or so a month. Simply cannot afford racking up a bunch of flying time which is very frustrating!

[@lgarcia67]

Great analysis! Same thing happened to me; I got discouraged. Flying a Cessna in the 40’s and 50’s was kind of like driving a car nowadays, very simple. If you want to fly today in very crowded skies you need more complex equipment, and learn all those regulations. I don’t have neither time nor money for that.

[@jackal2568]

I'm training as a helicopter pilot. The vast majority of students at my school are veterans paying with the GI Bill because were the only ones that can afford it lol

[@Gator_Bait_Motorsports]

I started flying in 1964 at the age of 13 in an Aeronca 7AC which rented for $11.75 an hour for dual instruction. I collected pop bottles and mowed lawns to earn enough for a half hour lesson every couple of weeks. They sold the Aeronca and replaced it with a new Cessna 150 in 1966, that rented for $16.00 an hour dual. I bought an Luscombe 8E in 1975 for $4200 and got my private ticket in it. I bought a 1971 Cherokee 140D for $8500 and in 1976 bought a Piper Apache 150 for $12,900 to build time on, Gas was $1.00 a gallon, but the Apache held 108 gallons. I sold the Apache and bought a 1972 Pitts S1C for $10,000. in 1978. Operating costs were getting out of hand, so I sold the Pitts and joined a flying club until costs outrun my ability to pay. I flew for 50 years. It was hard to give it up. I still look up every time a plane flies overhead, with a tear in my eye.

[@longhairwhocares]

My dude you must be crying all damn day if that’s the case

[@SteelTallon]

I'm 51 and am finally able to afford lessons without taking a bank loan. Buying and maintaining an airplane is another story. Even "cheap" sport aircraft are more than my new car.

[@Mobev1]

I’m 51 too, about where are you located? I’ve done medical and have about 80 hours flying many different planes. I was just having fun knowing my mother was sick and I’d be out a while. I was and she passed and I’m about done as the executor. Buy a sport cruiser if you are under 200 pounds. I’d wait a bit longer until the mosaic rules are finalized. I’m in Virginia.

[@kaasmeester5903]

Same here, I started my lessons at 53. I looked around, cheapest was €12000 for 45 hours, ground school, written exams and check ride. I live practically next to a small airport so I went with a flight school located there, and I hope to have the check ride soon. But I'll have spent around €18000... Even on a good income it's hard to afford that kind of outlay on a hobby. I can't justify it either, but I had some money sitting in the bank, and what with inflation and all I thought: why not spend it on something that I've always dreamed of doing? No regrets so far!

[@SteelTallon]

@@kaasmeester5903 yes, my school is 5 mins away. I've tried a couple times in my life to get my license. But, always ran out of money or time. Now with a good job, and some extra money I think I will finally get it done. I'm doing my solo x country soon, and then it's check ride time. I also went with a Sport pilot license which is half the time and money. Spent about $4k I suppose, so far.

[@SteelTallon]

@@Mobev1 I'm in Idaho

[@jonascarlsson1290]

also 51, got my ticket 10 months ago. if you're ok with an old clunker then keep looking around. visit local fly-ins. get the word out. world is full of 80+ pilots who want a good new owner for their old plane. it worked for me - i found a beat up old 140 that set me back little more than my admittedly too expensive PP cert. fixed costs blow $3k/year and then gas + fixing things that breaks on top of that. not a cheap hobby but also not completely unobtainable for normal people.

[@stevendegiorgio3143]

I got my private pilots certificate back in 1983 and I paid a total of $3400,everything included,today that same pilots certificate would cost upwards of $20,000.I used to rent a Cessna 152 for $40.00/hour,today its more than $100.00/hour for the very same old airplane(VFR only)

[@diveforknowledge]

Where are you paying 100/hr? I'm seeing 180-200 locally.

[@theblunderbussbrothers9547]

Prices per hour for a 152 in Las Vegas back in 2017 was $215/hr. You've got a deal if you're finding $100/hr somewhere!

[@Patriot-bn9om]

I dug up my records from getting my PPL in 1997-98. I paid $45/hr for a Piper Tomahawk. The Instructor was only $20/hr. By 2001-02, I was paying $75/hr for a Warrior and $85/hr for an Archer II and $28/hr for an instructor if I needed to get re-certified on the flight school aircraft. It seemed expensive at the time, but looks like a bargain today.

[@luiskaj2434]

Here in Canada the prices are insane: renting a Cessna 152 is $160 Cdn ($120 USD), Cessna 172S is $200 ($150 USD), PA28 Arrow is $210 ($157USD), and a PA44 Seminole is $385 ($288 USD) per hour rental (Waterloo Wellington Flight School, Kitchener, Ontario, about an hour west of Toronto)...

[@lakerenegadepilot6211]

The biggest issue with any industry has been liability injury lawyers. This drove insurance, certification, regulations higher.

[@MatthewHarrisLawPLLC]

I don't know that we're the problem. Often, those lawsuits came from companies putting profits ahead of safety and people getting hurt.

[@davedoe6445]

@@MatthewHarrisLawPLLC Those are just different words for: "only the very rich should fly"

[@julianbrelsford]

Davedoe I think it's more complicated than that. Most of the lawsuits against Piper - Cessna - Beech an the like were the result of real people dying, and then lawyers, judges, and members of the general public concluding that it was possible to do better. Of course when it came right down to it, doing better ended up costing a lot of money. To this day, it's possible to fly for way cheaper than the price of flying certified GA planes. There's ultralights, there are experimental planes, but the question becomes, are you willing to put up with the risks and compromises inherent in those less regulated areas of aviation?

[@KitYeeScott]

Yes real people died, usually because of pilot error. The manufacturer was held financially responsible in many cases bespcause they were the ‘deep pockets’. If you look at the case that put the Piper cub out of production Piper was found 2% responsible for the accident && 100% responsible for the fines. Even worse a jury decided that despite being flown safely for over many years a tail wheel aircraft was an unsafe design over riding the FAA certification.

[@badawesome]

That's what lawyers tell themselves so they can sleep at night. Why is it that only rich people or those with large insurance policies get sued. I guess it must be because poor people can do no wrong and only evil rich people cause others to get hurt.@@MatthewHarrisLawPLLC

[@tonepilot]

I gave up flying and sold my planes when it become a chore. Just a short cross country would take over an hour of paperwork. Getting the weather, filing a flight plan, measuring fuel, doing a careful walk around, doing the passenger briefing, filling in the propeller log, engine log, airframe log, pilot logbook, getting the latest NOTAMS, etc. By the time I left home, got to the airport, flew an hour, came back and got home, over half the day was gone. Then there's the annual where your nice airplane is taken apart and is always returned to you with new scratches and parts that don't fit as well anymore.

[@VGreggUndercover]

GA is in fact dying. Im an A&P IA that used to make $25/hr at a GA flight school/GA shop. I was Forced to move into the private jet world and I started at $36/hr and now my work load is cut in half with much less headaches. Most GA shops only charge $90/hr shop rate so they can’t afford to pay or keep good mechanics around. Pretty sad you can make more at Chicfila or waiting tables than most GA shops can pay. Yet automotive shops easily charge $160-200/ shop hour. GA will continue to die if this trend doesn’t change

[@baconsnake6463]

The interest in working on GA planes is pretty much dead. In my A&P program of about 80 there’s only 3-4 people interested in working in GA be corporate and airlines pay better with better benefits as well

[@VGreggUndercover]

@@baconsnake6463 yep exactly. It’s insane that the GA shops want to start you out at the same wage janitors make. Yet we go through intensive schooling and carry a lot of liability maintaining old antique planes

[@starstray4326]

My only caveat is the fact the GA work environment is way better than any corporate MRO. I love my IA’s in their small shops a huge respect to all of you reading this.

[@Ezlivin]

I wanted to do something extraordinary: Get a private pilot's license. It was extraordinary because I'm a paraplegic who cannot walk and must use a wheelchair. I managed to find a CFI willing to take me on. I obtained a set of hand controls for Piper aircraft and started my training. (I did ground school on my on and passed the test before taking flight lessons.) I completed my training and obtain my VFR pilot's license in '93. But the cost of fuel and aircraft rental ultimately became too much and I "retired" from flying. I cannot imagine young people getting into GA today with the cost of fuel, rental and instruction.

[@Cj-xl3jv]

I work on both newer and older GA aircraft and I can say without a doubt, older planes were just built better. I can foresee a 172M from 1973 lasting much longer than a newer 172S. Edit: also I’m glad you mentioned part cost. Some Cessna/Lycoming parts in particular are insane. $25,000 for a new O-320 is asinine. I don’t know how private owner/operators do it.

[@baconsnake6463]

A 1992 slick magneto capacitor alone is $300 and a lycoming training io-360, the high part cost is hurting A&P programs aswell as a single broken part can use up 1/2 a classes worth of lab fees

[@jasonhurdlow6607]

In what way are the older planes built better? Just curious.

[@Cj-xl3jv]

⁠@@jasonhurdlow6607I see a lot of manufacturing defects with newer aircraft. Missing rivets, terrible QC and materials. I attribute it to a general lack of “care” when assembling these very overpriced aircraft. Maybe it was the Textron acquisition finally showing its ugly head but the workmanship is a night and day difference.

[@jasonhurdlow6607]

@@Cj-xl3jv That's very concerning. Have you ever reported/shown this to any of the appropriate TLAs? I'd think they'd want to correct that situation.

[@davidholubetz177]

Just saw an IO-390 for sale for $55K ! Crazy.

[@petercyr3508]

I remember in the early 70s, you could get a Champ or T Craft for $2500. A really nice J3 was maybe $4000. So now it is 15 to 20 times that. Incomes have not gone up nearly that much. Maybe 10 times.

[@dennisstoesz]

Equivalent

[@derektinsley9500]

A very good video but E.A.A (Experimental Aircraft Association) should be mentioned or be covered in a video. Home built aircraft are registered Experimental because they do not get type certificates but are never the less very sound. This is where the heart and soul of general aviation is, even some owners of store bought planes have a home built The annual fly in, held at Oshkosh is spectacular, with hundreds of planes and pilots in attendance, even Concorde was showcased at a fly-in or two when it was new. EAA has had a lot to do with keeping general aviation alive and well but the money problem has surfaced here as well. Used to be you could buy a six cylinder air cooled horizontally opposed engine military surplus, intended for G.P.U., not used, for a song. Put the engine in your plane and be in the sky for a thousand or two. This is what EAA is all about. I apologize to all who know this as well as I do, but when it comes to aviation I can not hold back.

[@davidholubetz177]

@derektinsley9500 Great post ! EAA is a wonder and Oshkosh is Mecca for us aviation enthusiasts.

[@rinyvisser1142]

I think that one of the reasons of declining interest in aviation is the fact that more and more small airfields have become controlled airports. That means you have to deal with air traffic control. This undermines the feeling of freedom and self reliance which is one of the main attractions of flying for the fun of it. It's of course not the only reason and perhaps also not the most important one (rising costs in general have a great influence), but I think for many ex pilots and people who think of learning to fly the romantics of flying is declining. This can be found however in flying simple ultra light aircraft, gliding, hanggliding and paragliding. In general, gliding is the most affordable way of gliding in Europe, because it is done by gliding clubs. You don't have to own or even rent a glider.

[@rinyvisser1142]

Gliding is the most affordable way of flying. To hasty on the keyboard...

[@rayschoch5882]

Dad was a Navy fighter pilot in WW 2, having learned to fly in college via ROTC, and we were part-owners of a V-tailed Bonanza when I was very young. When I became an adult, I'd have been happy to become a GA pilot, but even in the 1960s, the cost was prohibitive. An old man now, with physical infirmities that make piloting impractical, the cost remains prohibitive for all the reasons listed near the end of the video. I still like airplanes, still look up when one passes overhead, and have, on rare occasions, flown a couple of them, but in general, flying has become a boutique hobby for the affluent. I'm too old, and not affluent enough, to take part.

[@frankienv3906]

The same with me, but I did the next best thing, I got involved in Flying large model airplanes, It's just a scaled down version of what I always wanted to do, FLY. 😁👍

[@JPM6691]

My Dad was also a navy pilot in WW2 and was a part owner in a V tail Bonanza in the 1960s. I got my PPL in 1966. Frivolous lawsuits ruined General Aviation.

[@blaster-zy7xx]

I got my PPL about 15 years ago and flew quite a bit in light sport planes. Since the vast majority of flying is really done with one or two people, it was a cost effectively alternative. But even this got way more expensive over time to today. The place renting me my planes out was a victim of the Covid shut down and they never recovered. Now I’m grounded.

[@craigpierce7996]

General Aviation is a result of a strong economy and a solid, 3-tiered society. Go to any country that is two-tiered and you'll find virtually no general aviation. This is a strong sign that America is heading in the direction of Venezuela. Whatever your politics, economics is economics!

[@starstray4326]

Craig you hit right on the money!

[@wassermutt7805]

If it's dying, who is buying all the planes and causing prices to be 2-3X what they were 4 years ago?

[@rudyho3790]

yeh.. lololl...chinamen..$$$

[@deltaskyhawk]

We need more economical training aircraft for starters. Using 172 for training burns 8-9 gal per hour. That is like $80-90 per hour for fuel. When airlines train pilots, they use simulators not aircraft. It is a very expensive hobby, and a high entry cost for a career.

[@lethargicstove2024]

I hope to become a pilot, but if it's too expensive I might go down the air force route.

[@Flatspinjim]

Avgas is not $10 a gallon. Maybe in SOCAL, but most places its more like $6-7 depending on where you are. Also if you rent, you rent wet. So you don't pay for gas unless you're going X-country and need to refuel somewhere. But yes, plane prices are insane from just 4-5 years ago.

[@Tidepodss]

@@Flatspinjimat my school fuel is 13 a gallon

[@Czar_Loko]

@@lethargicstove2024I’m a pilot. If you’re wanting to make it a career , you’ll make Pennies in the Airforce compared to what even a regional will pay you. And the Airforce is likely to lock you in past the expiration of your contract as a pilot. Have afew friends who fly for both army and Airforce and out of the 5 of them only 1 didn’t get a stopgap put on them when exiting the military. Not worth it imo. You’re better off with the loan route these days.

[@cwr8618]

@@lethargicstove2024you’re talking about 2 years in flight school then another 6 years of payback flying the aircraft before you can transition to airlines.

[@freecitizen7372]

The price to get a pilot license has risen dramatically since the 1990’s. The price for airplanes and parts has risen dramatically since the Covid pandemic and supply chain shortages. This also resulted in flight schools shutting down.

[@Matt-mo8sl]

Yup, 3500 dollars and 67 hours for me in 1992.

[@Food.Dog.Car.]

​@Matt-mo8sl probably closer to the 15-20k mark for that many hours nowadays.

[@baconsnake6463]

Some parts on the lycoming io 360 are backordered almost 4-5 months

[@Jason-vm3lz]

I a bought airplane and got my license in that airplane. My insurance was $1400 for the year and I was told when you get your licenses and 100 hours that cost would go down. A year later and 100 hours on airplane and insurance went up to $2200 for the year.

[@kristopherdetar3552]

Over 20 years ago, the oil industry proclaimed they would no longer be making LL100 octane aviation fuel. They are still making it but at the price it sits today only the rich can afford to fly GA aircraft. I made $70,000/yr and flying 100 hours/yr was too expensive.

[@JimCar71]

Far too expensive. I am one of those that have dreamed to fly and saved the money to pay for my training. The costs of flying/renting/owning/maintaining has slipped beyond my financial ability (and I’m middle class). Sure, I can rent a 50 year old plane with minimal IFR capabilities for a couple of hours a month but that’s not safe nor fun in my opinion. So I just fly VR MFS and Vatsim.

[@badawesome]

why is everyone abbreviating everything

[@dennisstoesz]

What you want ifr for.?

[@dennisstoesz]

@@badawesome Paper shortage.

[@mattcnc9]

My entire life I loved airplanes and have always wanted my PPL. What erks me the most is that in high school I was diagnosed with ADD And took prescribed stimulants for a few months before stopping. I am now age 24 and have been blessed with a very successful career and flight training is well within my budget. But because of terrible FAA regulations I am not eligible because I took prescribed stimulants almost 10 years ago. I hope one day that the policy will change.

[@fmlstewart]

Why is GA failing? Show me one thing the federal govt regulates and enforces so stringently, that is successful. If the govt wants aviation to be military and commercial only, they will simply regulate and enforce GA out of existence.

[@SHMPhotography97]

Medical requirements can't be overlooked either. If you take virtually any kind of daily medication you cannot fly. As most of the people with the disposable income to afford flying are older, this immediately cuts a lot of pilots out of the GA market other than for LSA and Part 103 aircraft

[@BayouSavant]

Amen Brother- if you aren't 25 the FAA carries on like you are ready to fall into a coffin if you take BP meds. When I became hypertensive at age 35, they pretty much harassed me out of the air, even though I was a regular runner and cyclist, a non-smoker without any other risk factors, and with low weight and in great vigor. The meds being what they were at the time, causing impotence, or severe lung congestion, or many other nasty side effects, I minimized my dosage and always took the bare minimum dosage to stay under the limit. Tired of dodging the FAA doctors and the extra expense of EKGs and testing, I pretty much gave up on it. New meds today are much better, but even then YOU NEED TO READ ALL THE LITERATURE AND LOOK OUT FOR HIDDEN SIDE EFFECTS, and make sure it is worth it for you. Today I am 73 and in perfect health and fly flight sim. I am glad I got my license, and had some fun, but believe me, like many other things, once you attain it, it doesn't seem to be all that-

[@mzaite]

To say nothing of the fact that younger people actually care about their health, meaning they also lose their ability to get a medical.

[@drawmaster77]

just did medical last week and because of some medication I am taking "which may cause drowsyness" though I never felt drowsy they told me I need special issuence which is months of extra waiting time if I even manage to get one at all...

[@redfoxtactical8425]

I've wanted to fly my whole life. Was flying study level aircraft in MSFS way back when I was 11 or so. But I'm very rapidly realizing I'll never be able to afford it. I worked 2 jobs to put myself through college. Got a really good paying job as a Software engineer. Even worked for a fortune 100 Aerospace company. And even I can't even dream of having the money to fly. Most of my generation can't even afford new cars. And a new single engine GA plane costs as much as a Ferrari anymore for something pretty entry level. An old 1970s PA-28 costs 70-80,000. Plus another 20,000-30,000 just to leave it sitting in a hangar ready to fly. These prices are absolutely killing the hobby and honestly I think that's the goal. It's depressing to know I'll never get to live that dream. And that just a few generations ago it was so achievable. But ill get over it eventually and just throw it on the pile of dreams we were sold that died long before I was born.

[@linkfreeman1998]

Maybe some things better off never existed rather than simply exist to hurt us...

[@shanesplanetshane3795]

Have you looked into paramotors or power parachutes? It isnt the same as GA, but its flying at a reasonable cost, w/o excessive regulation (yet). Flying is flying, and the view from a butt fan lawn chair, is still great! Only 3x's more expensive than my last $4000 car. Worth it!

[@brandtbecker1810]

@@shanesplanetshane3795 Sorry, I don't see it as the same thing - with due respect.

[@shanesplanetshane3795]

@@brandtbecker1810 well, there are differences. Same with helicopters vs bi-planes, vs standard planes, vs jet planes. Each differs but they are also similar. Flying is flying... For people who can't afford the insane costs of GA (or be micro-managed by policing agencies), ppg is the ticket. After the buy-in of $10k, I've been flying for nearly 5 yrs for just the cost of pump gas. My 'plane' fits in my car, stores in my basement and burns 3lph. I dont have to keep records, insurance or even an AV radio. Hard to beat being able to fly to and from spots with just a mere 60' of grass to use. Ultimate freedom!

[@brandtbecker1810]

@@shanesplanetshane3795 Understand. I just want the "real thing" or not fly at all.

[@Patriot-bn9om]

I got my pilots license 25 years ago. I accumulated about 60 hours getting my license. I tried to stay current by renting a plane and flying at least monthly. I logged only about 25 hours over the next three years. I hit a snag when weather didn’t cooperate and I couldn't fly for a couple of months. Then, the next time I tried to fly, the flight school wouldn’t rent me a plane because I was one day past their 2-month rule for renting a plane without flying again with an instructor. Before I could get that scheduled, I also hit the point needing the biennial flight review. My flying career essentially ended. Renting planes is problematic and not useful for anything other than local flying. Owning a plane is the best solution for travel and building hours. Now, I can afford to buy a plane but there are years long waiting lists to get hangar space at all airports near me. For me to fly again, I would have to basically start over as a pilot. It’s daunting. I know a long list of people who have private pilot licenses but basically gave up and fell by the wayside from barrier after barrier stacking up against them. If we could keep more of these pilots from quitting, they'd make a dent in the supply of older planes. I think we may need some type of a whole of industry effort, including getting the government and insurance companies on board, to build and sustain general aviation with more seamless pilot development, currency, and access to aircraft and hangar space. The current pilot shortage may be a tool to get this started. There's a brilliant solution out there somewhere. Let's find it.

[@RCAvhstape]

That's basically my experience as well. At this point so much time has passed that the idea of me flying professionally is out of the question, and even flying again seems farther out of reach as time goes by.

[@davidsklar1988]

I thought about being a pilot a great freedom from driving but as fast as a plane is I found it is cheaper to drive 😢

[@harryagrotis326]

Not failing but too damn expensive especially to be in a new airplane with modern avionics

[@starcetus]

I would love to one day own and fly a plane. I once dreamed of having a plane with a renovated interior like a camper that would let me fly freely and basically live out of the plane as I traveled. It was a silly dream but I sadly don't think I'll ever be able to afford to fly even a small plane.

[@dibert2]

I’ve heard these assertions before but it’s always struck me as a circular argument to say prices are high because demand is low and manufacturers can’t get economies of scale. Now more than ever I feel like whatever the production rate required for a manufacturer to produce solid four seater under $200k, they’d sell every slot. Demand is there - it’s just not there for the price offered. Flight training is so expensive because of the wet rates that have to be charged for the plane.

[@bosshog8844]

Executives' second/third homes aren't going to pay for themselves.

[@definitelynotRoberto]

Another way to look at it is these guys have to acknowledge it's now a cottage industry. Yes, you can make money as a manufacturer, no, you probably won't make enough to buy a yacht. Flight controls and materials haven't changed much, hell, even the engines aren't nearly as advanced as the average automotive engine, today. No reason why planes should cost what they do if economics works the way they say it does (technology gets cheaper with age). Typical 4 cyl engines should be getting spit out at $5-$10k tops, green airframes less than $100k. And considering the glass cockpits are basically a bunch of iPads, no reason they can't be $10k and under. All in, a very nice new plane should be less than $200k, and the builder still makes a healthy profit.

[@badawesome]

I think that when a small Cessna has over $100,000 in product liability built into it, the manufacturer wants the opposite of scale. Economies point to low numbers of aircraft. You would need a new manufacturer building planes in a country that does not recognize lawsuits from the US and only sell them in that country. Someone like Tesla would need to build a gigafactory and stamp aircraft parts at scale that need little finshing due to the design.

[@MrLunithy]

FAA don't want private aviation, and are too busy ruining hobby's with rabble to get both out of the airspace.

[@bertiesworld]

Money. The great divider. I got up to about 65 hours, flown some solos and then took a step back. Looked at the sums and, much as I loved flying around, decided it was a rich person's game. I came down to earth and went out and bought a high powered adrenaline rush motor bike. I had quite some fun on that too. I still go up the local airfield but it looks more and more deserted with not many people around.

[@cturdo]

Government intervention has added cost without a comparative increase in safety. Product liability, insurance and fuel costs have nearly destroyed the industry. Now the need for pilots is desperate, and they still haven't figured out how to make it cost-effective. Yes, there are a lot of good used aircraft, but pilots are flying less and saving their assets. In a good climate, flight schools and businesses at least would be flying their planes so much that they would need replacements and drive down the costs. This is not going to happen across the board.

[@mellophoneman100]

I began to pursue my PP about ten years ago, however, it became so expensive, and the dream of owning my own aircraft was so far away I gave up. It was no longer worth it to me as a hobby, and I couldn't justify a non hobby pursuit, since I rarely travel so far my own plane would be helpful.

[@MarkHansen-c9m]

One of the last factors mentioned in this excellent video is is that interest in general aviation flying has declined. So while the number of used airplanes on the market remains quite large, but the number of pilots/buyers is in decline, or static at best, prices of these planes continue to climb. It seems that the ironclad law of supply and demand that I was taught in my Macroeconomics class years ago does not apply in this market.

[@derektinsley9500]

General aviation is being forced out. Many years ago a Beechcraft twin was involved in a fatal accident. Beechcraft was sued for building a plane which was "not up to speed" although the plane in question had flown safely for 30 years. The plaintiff was awarded a very large sum of money and Beech focused on planes for the military after this.To me this seemed to be the beginning of the end for general aviation.

[@lizzsszzy7800]

​@@derektinsley9500 I've read about crashes that were almost 100% pilot error (VFR into IMC, flying well over MTOW and stalling, etc) where the family sues the manufacturer anyways, often just blowing hot air about "defects" and such with no evidence. And this eats into everyone's purchase price.

[@chipsawdust5816]

@@derektinsley9500 THIS

[@AllenPortman]

It is frustrating when you love to fly and looking at cost of airplanes today....which is beyond ridiculous! The common lay person can simply cannot afford flying!

[@kene8895]

It's just much too expensive to think about starting.

[@rickymccarty594]

Lets not even talk about the maintenance cost of overhauling or purchasing a new engine where the technology hasn't chaged in 40+ years....you would think with rather simple engines that have been around for decades it wouldnt cost more than a new car to overhaul or as much as luxury vehicle for a new engine that they recommend gets overhauled at 1800-2000 hours

[@Tharkunify]

It just too expensive. Light sport planes are jumping 10-20k each year with some now in the 300k range! A 1 hour burger run in a Cirrus can cost $450-500 if you rent. Insane.

[@micclay]

Good job explaining everything. Nobody but multiple millionaires are buying a new certified airplane, even of the most basic types.

[@cecielhelder5923]

Nothing like a 1 million dollar SR22 to go grab a $100 hamburger.

[@NICK-uy3nl]

Number of accidents and deaths of small private aircraft is also a huge factor in decline of general aviation, roughly 90% of all aviation fatalities are caused by private aircraft accidents, contributing factors can be lack of adequate maintenance, pilot training, bad weather and/or night accidents and failure to follow safety procedures.

[@Darren4352]

Let's not forget the lack of currency. Folks need to be able to practice a perishable skill regularly. That's why they're regulations about maintaining currency.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

@@Darren4352 my home flight sim, with high end PC, VR, & peripherals, is better than what the FAA will certify for log-able hrs, yet to get my rig certified is so mind boggling difficult and expensive that no one bothers with trying. One way costs could be reduced would be allowing currency with home flight sim rigs with an easier means to self certify our home sims. We all know why they don’t do it. If anyone could suddenly log hours at home, demand for rentals goes down. Flight schools with sims wouldn’t be able to charge you insane rates to use their shitty log-able sims. There is zero interest from government, societies like AOPA or EAA, or GA industry to find ways to cut costs. Maybe to reduce accidents, we shouldn’t be flying 50 yo aircraft without modern safety features and avionics… yet those aircraft are so expensive they can sell only dozens a year.

[@jonascarlsson1290]

interestingly, general aviation is actually safer than it has ever been. But safety improvements in highway transportation and commercial aviation over the past half century have been nothing short of exceptional, making general aviation with its modest safety gains look comparatively dangerous, and something best avoided by an increasingly risk adverse population.

[@bryonslatten3147]

Not to mention many civil aviation fatalities result in massive settlement payouts to families. Thinking about Cessna's big payouts for dumb 210 pilots in the 70's and 80's.

[@cwr8618]

@@jonascarlsson1290interesting comment. Any immediate stats jump out?

[@jimarcher5255]

Learned to fly while in the military at the Redleg Flying Club at Ft. Sill Oklahoma. The plane was a surplus Piper PA-18. The plane rental was $2.50 per hour wet and the instructor cost another $5.00. Became a civilian and didn’t fly again until G.I. Benefits helped me get a commercial ticket. After that couldn’t afford to fly for 20 years.

[@kenstewart5991]

Airports used to be open to the public. The small strips had little or no fencing. I"m talking 50's and 60's. Nowadays a kid can't even get close enough to a plane or pilot to SEE them. How are these kids supposed to get interested in aviation? Looking at a vapor trail 40,000ft in the sky? I wish I could go back. You could buy an Aeronca Cheif in great condition for 900 bucks. And kids could bike over to the airstrip and even touch it. Sit in it.

[@citationjeff]

This is absolutely a huge part of it. What once were magical places to visit are now locked down like a prison.

[@kenstewart5991]

@citationjeff I suppose it could be nessessary in these times but it's a damn shame.Biking to our little airport was the best part of my childhood. By ALOT.

[@bosshog8844]

Just a coincidence that the country was 90% white people at that time. Homogeneous, high-trust societies don't really need to build fences or strip search you to board a plane.

[@chipsawdust5816]

Yeah and nowadays they'd spray paint the panel and flatten the tires. This aint the good'l days, that's for sure.

[@dr.chrisketo7193]

Since 2000 there have been more flight instructors than student pilots in Germany. There is no longer any point in becoming a flight instructor. I gave away my Oldtimer Airplane for 1 € and that’s it.

[@shyammohabir8283]

I don't think it is a general lack of interest in aviation. The issue is it is too expensive to become a pilot- for a private VFR it will run you at an average $30K (third-class medical certificate., ground school (FAA requires 40 hours but reality 50-60 hrs) flight training -maneuvers, solo flight, night flight, cross country, emergency procedures, Checkride (oral exam, flight), Written Exam, and every time you rent an aircraft for training it runs you about $300 + you'll have to pay the instructor). cost of flight books and training materials, pay for security passes at airport -- many people dream of becoming a pilot but cannot afford it!!

[@adamsrosales6519]

30k is an exaggeration. It’s more like 15k, if not less. You can absolutely find schools that will cost 30k, but it’s not “average.”

[@stevevos2764]

So sad. Got my PPL in 1971. Then bought Cessna 150. Money was not an issue and I was 19 making unskilled labor wages. Flew all over Minnesota and Florida. Cessna planned for every household to have not just a two car garage but also a mini hangar. Then the litigation issues, maintenance expenses, more and more regulations. Eventually earned CFII just so I could fly for free. Graduated 12 PPL students. But the insurance and prices to get a ppl are sky high. The LSA and homebuilts just didn’t do the job of making flying affordable. These days. I keep my CFII current and once a year share costs with a friend to fly out of state to see my kids and grandkids. Even though I could fly commercial 3x cheaper. Many wonderful memories flying

[@Rick-v]

One correction. Mooney did not focus on easy to fly aircrafts. Mooney aircrafts are complex aircrafts by definition with retractable landing gear and high performance.

[@gabekremer7148]

I own a J model and also fly a G model uou clearly have no experience with them. Very easy to fly and 90% of the crap people spread about them is false

[@MarkHansen-c9m]

Yeah, Mooneys are like Bonanzas for smaller people. 😄

[@ZhihengCao]

You are mistaken, mooney is low but not for short people. It is like Ferrari or Learjet you can't stand up in one but because you sit down low, even tall people have plenty of legroom and headroom, I am 6'2. @@MarkHansen-c9m

[@Rick-v]

@@gabekremer7148 it might be easy to fly for you. I ignore your skills on this airplane. It is a complex airplane by definition, you may read a little bit about the definition of complex aircraft here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_airplane

[@badawesome]

and you have to crawl into them

[@7775Kevin]

In the seventies I could rent a 172 for about $70 an hour ( roughly). Years later after my kids had graduated high school I thought about starting to fly again but rental costs everywhere I checked had at least doubled and often had increased even more than double. And this was twenty years ago. I don’t even know what rental costs average now but I’m sure it’s prohibitively high. Flying is a thing of the past for me and has been for years.

[@justinreich3486]

About 230$ to 310$

[@chipsawdust5816]

I worked at a Cessna dealership in the late 70s and clearly recall a 182RG available wet for $55/hour. My father in law had a 182RG is why I remember it so clearly. That was in Houston, TX.

[@rogerpha1398]

Aircraft manufacturers are trying to sell Ferraris when GA needs Model Ts.

[@terrykeith4791]

I began flying as a private pilot in the 70’s. I enjoyed it for many years but eventually had to stop because of the cost. It just got too expensive. I still miss it though.

[@thengine7]

Overreaching safety from the FAA has added too many costs. We all know it. But the government is super happy with how ham-fisted their regulations are.

[@smoguli]

I'd rather not have an incompetent private pilot crash on my house with his poorly maintained plane, thank you very much.

[@dugandav1]

I would also add for the UK, the demise of the military/cutbacks in defence resulted in less awareness of flying through organisations such as the Air Cadets and Airshows coupled with the blarzey attitude towards the Flying Sector in general. Many of the older military airfields with runways have just be sold-off without any regards to the sink costs that have already been paid. Why was more entrepreneurial attitude NOT taken towards the maintenance of the estates and making them dual purpose thus keeping some of the infrastructure? There are far too many people who are too keen to spend/waste public money.

[@hud86]

FAA came into existence in 1964, general aviation has declined ever since. Safety has increased because participation has decreased

[@chipsawdust5816]

1958 And you're wrong about the rest of it too.

[@chrisbuller9938]

after 30 yrs of owning and flying, i am out. maintenance (mainly parts and regulation driven, not the shop hourly rates) fuel and insurance costs had become very hard to justify. even though i was fortunate enough to be able afford them, i simply no longer wanted to. the final straw was a series of minor malfunctions in my modern garmin all glass cockpit that neither the installing avionics shop nor garmin would take responsibility for. i realized the $150k glass cockpit in my bonanza invited all kinds of ongoing costs that if unpaid, grounded the airplane; a sort of avionics mafia had developed that holds the modern aircraft owner at ransom. no thanks. i do miss the flying enormously....

[@Gunthrek]

I got my private pilot cert about 10 years ago at a part 141 school in Texas that was attached to a college so I could use my GI Bill. I was planning to do it professionally, and was partway through my instrument rating when personal issues arose that forced me to quit. Haven't flown a day since due to cost. It's just too expensive to foot the bill yourself unless you have a substantial income.

[@TheGweedMan]

I learned to fly in 1978 in Mammoth Lakes, California, field elevation 7138. Total cost was less than $700 in a Cessna172 including the instructor. Purchased a used Piper Cherokee 180 with 4 other guys and flew that until I had enough hours to rent a more complex Cessna 182 with a constant speed prop. Flew to LA for business purposes mostly.There were no fax machines back then so documents had to be mailed or moved in person. Used some of my remaining GI Bill after collegeused most of it up to take some IFR training. Now I celebrate my birthday by renting an instructor and a plane for an hour just to sit in the left seat. Miss the days of affordable flying.

[@chipsawdust5816]

I traded A&P work for flight time at a busy flight school at BFI. Otherwise I'd have never been able to afford it. I bought a 172 because I wanted a true two seater (!) and sold it years later as costs got too high even though I was doing my own maintenance.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

I love aviation but it is paywalling itself out of existence. The older generation likes it that way, the newer generation wanting to get in, can’t afford it.

[@quietwatch]

Curious why younger people would think the "older generation likes it that way." Certainly not the case with me as a boomer. Can't say I know anyone in the industry who is my age and feels that way. The cost is awful and has a ripple effect throughout the industry. Just look at the Air Force offering some pilots up to $100k in bonuses to stay in. Wouldn't be necessary if the cost of aviation wasn't so high. Nothing to do with age.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

@@quietwatch don’t get me wrong, it’s not that they’re not welcoming. But quick to raise rental rates and advocating the very policies that keep prices high. In our home airport, a c172N (~50 y.o. plane) rents for +$200/hr DRY, avgas is ~$6/gal now? you add a CFI and you’re looking $300-350 for just one 1.2-1.5hr lesson. Add materials, gear, ground, tests, and you’re looking at $15k-$20k just for a PPL. That’s triple what it cost me when I did mine back in the 90’s. The owners renting their planes to offset maintenance costs and hangers are very quick to raise rates. This is unsustainable.

[@quietwatch]

@@father-sonflightsimulator3838 You got that right ... unsustainable! It's a vicious circle of rising costs and the person at the bottom always picks up the tab. I remember $35/hr wet when I first started and I thought that was expensive (mid 80s). I wouldn't be able to pursue it at all now either.

[@GolfonFlying]

a very interesting video... thanks for sharing

[@johnypitman2368]

When figuring the cost to fly you have three major expenses. Maintenance, insurance and hanger. These add up to quite a lot. Often you need a airport car at your destination too.

[@blackbeardsghost6588]

I served in the U.S. Navy in the mid/late 80's. We had a saying about flying civilian airplanes . . . "I don't have enough of what it takes to keep a general aviation airplane in the air. $$$$$".

[@fly4fun24]

I think it is... In 2019, I had cash saved to buy a LSA outright... Now What I have, it is not enough to buy 1/2 of the same LSA I was going to buy, the week I was closing the dial, this airplane jumped 20k in price, fast Foward 2022, I lost the price race... I gave up....

[@Malzanar2010]

Tons want to fly but it’s prohibitively expensive for the overwhelming majority of people.

[@TheCaioKyleBraga]

You forgot to mention a sub category in the GA world, the Light Sport segment. Nevertheless, you are correct on the stats. The upcoming change with MOSAIC rules might usher (hopefully) a new era in GA.

[@georgeconway4360]

You can’t sell airplanes if the customers can’t afford them. Cessna built 100+ 172s & 150s a month in the 1960s. Now they don’t build 100 each year. Taxes are great for the top 1%. They no longer have to face the 91% top rate. Some billionaires pay less than 1% but some of them say servicemen that were KIA were suckers. Sad!

[@gottesma]

I wouldn't be surprised if airline deregulation in the late 70s played a big role. Airline tickets used to be absurdly expensive, making general aviation more attractive. Nowadays, you have to really really enjoy piloting aircraft in order to prefer flying yourself in a c172 vs just buying an airline ticket.

[@brucecuratola6389]

The biggest obstacle is the federal government. Medical was botched, it took forever to get sign off for a check ride, now I cannot find anyone will to give me a check ride. Horrible!

[@musiqtee]

9:35 re the conclusion over economic factors, there is one crucial bit missing. In the 70’s through the mid 90’s, revenue, demand and supply were the largest drivers of change. However, due to LESS regulation in finance since 1990’s, large companies AND potential buyers of GA aircraft financialised their surplus. Meaning that corporations invested in each other, more than “the market” itself. This really drove prices above hobbyists’ reach, as only corporate customers could also write off costs before taxation. Something a mere “human” legally cannot do, without establishing a company to manage VAT and tax after costs. Since the video mentions “regulation” pretty often, a good question would be “who pushed for stricter regulations?”. Well, not the individual private pilots, and not rogue politicians out of the blue. The “influencers” were the industry itself, to - as mentioned - increase profits from less production due to inflationary costs. Corporate wellbeing is now less about sales profits, and much more about surplus from ownership of assets (IP, debt, property, bonds, stock buybacks…). So, more regulations for pilots/people/hobbyists, less regulations for corporate asset management and banking. Now that’s modern public management, right…? 😅👍

[@suzukirider9030]

One indicator that the Standard Category aircraft economy is broken is the fact that it's cheaper to build an "experimental" than to purchase a Standard Category aircraft. With i.e. an RV-10 - the number of those build exceeding some certified aircrafts' numbers by an order of magnitude, the name of the category doesn't make much sense anymore - it's a well-known and well-tested airframe with millions of flight hours accumulated, yet the FAA still calls it "experimental" - and forbids mass production - which forces costs up and quality down. Imagine how much a car would cost if anyone wishing to own one would need to become a petrolhead, own a mechanic's garage, with welding machines, an engine lift, steel milling machine, not to mention hundreds of misc tools - just to build a car? Now imagine that that would STILL be cheaper than to purchase one from a dealer. Oh and now imagine that dealer would still be selling basically 1960s models, with minor modifications, to this day - but now for half a million bucks :-D And an extra $20k if you if you want a navigation display, A/C or cruise control. Sounds crazy? Well somehow that's the reality in GA.

[@kiotee_nouw]

"What happened to General Aviation?" - Money. Money kills everything in the end for the many.

[@SailingTeamTallyHo]

The main fuel crisis was 1973. My dad was a pilot and I learned about that time too. Was never able to afford it long term but I loved it when I did fly