Why General Aviation is Failing

🛩️ How General Aviation Took a Dive - A Comprehensive Breakdown | Aviation History & Economics 📉
👨‍✈️✈️ Explore the roller-coaster journey of general aviation! From the affordable and booming post-WWII skies to the soaring costs and stringent regulations of today, we take you on a flight through time to understand "How General Aviation Failed." Buckle up as we dive into the fascinating history, dissect the financial turbulence, and reveal how the golden age of accessible flying slowly descended into a costly pursuit. 🏆📈
🛫🌟 What you'll learn in this video:
How post-WWII economics and a surplus of aircraft created a pilot's paradise
The transformation from the Civil Aeronautics Administration to the Federal Aviation Administration and its impact
The evolution of iconic aircraft and how innovation shaped the industry
The economic forces and regulations that grounded the once-thriving general aviation sector
🔍💡 Deep Dive Topics:
The saturation point of the aviation market and its consequences
The ripple effects of the oil crises and economic downturns on aviation
The complex calculus of inflation-adjusted costs of aircraft over the decades
The unintended consequences of safety regulations and certification hurdles
The stark comparison of aircraft prices then and now - the real cost of modern technology
🛠️💲 The Economics of Flight:
Exploring the rise in insurance costs and their impact on flying expenses
Understanding the lack of economies of scale in modern aircraft manufacturing
Analyzing the decrease in pilot certification and its correlation with aircraft demand
🏭📉 Manufacturing Woes:
The challenge of low production numbers and its price implications
Stricter airspace regulations and the requirement for modern equipment
👩‍🏫🎓 Whether you're an aviation enthusiast, an economics student, a history buff, or just curious about how and why flying isn't as pocket-friendly as it used to be, this video has something for everyone! 🌍
📊📘 We bring numbers to life and make sense of the dollars and cents behind the propellers. Join us on this intriguing flight of discovery - unravel the complexities of general aviation's economic landscape and grasp the full picture of its decline.
💼🚁 For aspiring pilots, aviation professionals, and business analysts, this is a must-watch analysis that charts the turbulence in general aviation's economic skies.
✈️ Don't miss the engaging discussion and insightful conclusions! Hit the like button, subscribe for more thought-provoking content, and fly through history with us. Remember to ring the bell for notifications so you won’t miss any of our future flights into the world of aviation! 🛎️🌐
#GeneralAviation #AviationHistory #EconomicAnalysis #PilotLife #AircraftEconomics #FlightTraining #AviationRegulations #FlyingCosts #Cessna172 #AircraftManufacturing #AviationIndustry #FlightSchool #PrivatePilot #AviationEnthusiast
✍️📝 Scripted with the passion of a pilot and the precision of an economist, this video is your boarding pass to the heights and declines of general aviation. Share your thoughts in the comments below! Have you felt the pinch of rising aviation costs in your flying career or hobby? Let’s discuss! 🗨️💬
🕰️🛩️ Ready to take off? Click play and let the journey begin!
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[@WestAirAviation]

Every-time I tell someone I'm a pilot, without fail they say "I always wanted to be a pilot, but then..." and the then is always different, but more often than not the excuse is the price. The 1,500 rule only exacerbated an already reprehensible system. I went to ERAU in '07. One of my dorm mates was a foreign national from Korea. She graduated, went home, and was flying 777's while I was still in Cessna's.

[@MuzixMaker]

Remind me not to fly on Korean Airlines.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@MuzixMakerThe question is, why is the 1500 hour rule still in place? The commercial ticket only requires 500 hours and use to be enough to fly commercial airliners.

[@MuzixMaker]

@@Mistamannfour commercial is 250 hours. Blame reactionary Congresscritters.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@MuzixMaker Opps, thanks for the correction! That is even worse.

[@sircartier2260]

The 1500 Hour rule doesn’t make sense considering the high cost adjusted for inflation esp. if u gonna work as a CFI with sh!tty pay

[@TheJoesenOne93]

I have 100s of friends with an interest in aviation. From my personal experience , the interest has never declined. In fact, every few months, I find dozens of new people in their 20s wanting to learn how to fly. The price and barrier to entry increased. No one can afford to pursue their interest in it if costs don't come down. Wage growth has stagnated since the 80s, but the cost of ownership and operations continues to rise.

[@jonasbaine3538]

Even people who can afford are frustrated with excessive maintenance wait times to get repairs done. Not uncommon for personal planes to spend weeks and months sitting in maintenance shop.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@jonasbaine3538 The problem is that A&Ps are open to liability for the maintenance they performed while working in GA. If an A&P works for major companies or the airlines they are not held liable. What I see in the future for maintenance at GA is owners will also need to be A&P IAs: another cost to being a pilot in GA.

[@AlphaMale_1]

Amature aviation is for the birds.

[@Airplanefish]

I've got a perfectly good flying aircraft with no damage history for sale. It has no expensive parts on it. Simple to fix. Simple to fly and cheap on gas. Only $22K. Aeronca Chief. If you don't live at high altitude it's a cheap way to purse flying and own. Not all planes are expensive

[@billl7551]

Inflation is a killer, it brought US industry to its knees in early 80s and now reborn. Both avoidable and tragic. No one links to the real cause. Gold was $35 oz in 1968, it is around $2000 today, a 57X increase. Peoples life savings being drastically diluted. The cost switch can not be flipped and drive up costs hugely and the follow with wages only to have them diluted with increased taxes. This is the root cause, not the interest to become pilots. I built and RV7 and it is very economical to fly. I am able to do my own maintenance. Even kits now have inflated greatly and lead times for delivery and 18 months. Our YE event had 20 kids a few days ago and they were super interested in becoming pilots. My kit manufacturer is now in dire condition, and may go the way of Cessna, Piper and a dozen others. This is a voter issue, and tragic for all. People have to wake up.

[@thomasp.shortm.d.1762]

I had a 172 and sold it last year for much more money than I paid for it 15 years before. The yearly costs of flying it were $13,000 a year. Everything had gone uo. Gas, taxes,hangar,annual etc.Was just doing short cross country trips. Miss it but retirement and a lower income is creeping in. A new 172 is now $450,00 !.

[@AlpineHiker]

Add to that, Predatory school loans. ATP Drops over HALF of every class out of the program, Interest rates on those loans are 20% I got quoted over $16,000 in fees for $10,000 student loan to get my PPL. NO WONDER AVIATION IS DYING. after PPL, i'd need another $40,000 to be able to get my commercial to start earning money flying. I can Only imagine what all the fees on that loan would add up to....

[@Cle_M3]

@@AlpineHikerTry the Aviate program

[@reubenmorris487]

@@AlpineHiker I ate the costs. I had "problems" starting out, needed more time in instrument, had 3 instructors for commercial, and some other issues. I still made it out in one piece, bachelor's degree, and A&P license. I just ate all the costs and spent the time.

[@SirBeardsly]

Cost of aircraft and cost of parts and maintenance. It's insane. I make decent money, and I'm still struggling with the cost of everything. And I'm an A&P.

[@dannydaw59]

I was told a new 172 was $1.5 million. $450k is a lot better.

[@brockjennings]

Earning my private pilots license in the 1980s literally saved my life. I was a teenager lacking direction and somewhat of an outcast. My father made a deal with me that he would pay for half the cost of me getting my certificate. Ground school taught me to focus and learn concepts that I could directly apply in the cockpit. Passing my check ride boosted my confidence and self-worth, which paid dividends later in life.

[@Backup-xyz123]

@brockjennings I love hearing "rags to riches", or in this case "lost to found" stories such as yours. Thanks for sharing. God Bless.

[@barrymccockner3683]

I feel the same way! Almost done with my private pilots license, but the fact that I can operate a plane which takes a lot of hard work to learn theoretically and practically, I’ve grown confident in a lot of other areas of life, I’m 21 and also felt like I had no direction in life, finally acquiring a complex knowledge and skill and just accomplishing something hard has given me the fortitude to press on in other areas of life, also taking away that nagging feeling of having no skills.

[@davidgiles5030]

Like so many have mentioned in the comments, the costs became untenable. I went from ownership,to renting, to just can't afford it. Love to fly,but eating is more important.

[@boogerwood]

But due to the flood of people into the schools, they are restricting renting to only students, making it almost mandatory to own your own airplane or be fortunate enough to live somewhere near a decent flying club in order to have access to airplanes. Flying is such a rapidly, perishable skill, you must fly frequently to remain proficient. Your own aircraft is about the only way to maintain that. This will create a steep separation of general aviation as a means to a career versus those like me who fly for hobby.

[@sploop_boop3415]

I used to work at a semi reasonably priced flight school and the amount of kids I had to turn down was heartbreaking. The cost has just gotten too high unless you come from super rich family, and then you’d probably fly as a hobby not as a career. There’s no way we’re gonna stop the pilot shortage with this environment.

[@derektinsley9500]

Airlines will have to follow the lead set up in Europe where airlines train zero time pilots and put them in the cockpit when they get their commercial with ratings

[@philippehendrickx1109]

​@@derektinsley9500indeed. Those ab initio programs will be the only way to go. I heard some US carriers have started moving in that direction already.

[@tomdavis1694]

Single pilot ops to be followed by unmanned remote control aircraft will be their response.

[@Mistamannfour]

@@tomdavis1694 Single Pilot ops for commercial passenger is a no go. If a pilot becomes incapacitated the passengers are effed! The FAA will not allow it. Unmanned remote control/remote piloted ops defeats the purpose of not having pilots: to have remote control/remote pilot ops, you need pilots to perform/monitor flight operations. The FAA will never allow fully autonomous commercial ops: there will always be a person-in-the-loop!

[@maelstrom2313]

@@Mistamannfour They will not allow it yet as the technology simply isn't ready. However, automated flight will inevitably exceed human controls in terms of safety and at that point it will only be a matter of time. Humans are exceedingly good at complex tasks but our upper limits are static. Machine intelligence has no such upper limit and once they become safer than humans the public will eventually demand the safer option.

[@jimcaufman2328]

I learned to fly years ago for free in the military. After I got out and transitioned to civilian flying. I retired off the Boeing 777 over 20 years ago. Over the years since I have stopped by many airports just to look around. Problem is I can't get in most small airports because of locked doors and barbed wire fences. A few months ago, I stopped by my local airport to rent an airplane with an instructor to fly for a hour or so. Was told I could not do it without clearance from Homeland Security. Just for a little history I flew the first originating passenger flight in the United States after 9-11. Newark to Telavi. If you want more people to fly do away with all the BS, teardown the barbes wire fences and unlock the doors.

[@viciousattackvideo]

There are still down home, mom and Pop airports. They are dwindling, however. We need to step in and save those at all costs, especially if they are near enough to desirable areas, because you know what happens when developers I am such a property. Regional airports and anything with jet center in the title, forget about it, however. If you’re not a jet or turbine, who was bringing tons of these and fuel sales, you are an inconvenience at best. 0:24

[@brucecolburn8589]

7

[@johnpro2847]

we had open field at YCAB ,my airfield.Yobos were pinching fuel from the tanks.and subject to other damage by vandals.Years ago if you enter most airfields without restriction.The population has changed unfortunately.

[@jackr2287]

Tearing down the fences and unlocking the doors is gonna be a hard sell I imagine with the price tags on these birds and post 9/11. Though smaller uncontrolled rural airfields might be fairly easy to access for those in the know.

[@jimbangerter903]

Loved how this article never once mentioned Piper!

[@stevenwomack9574]

I managed to get my pilot's license back in the 80s. Since then, I've barely accumulated 150 hours, largely because of the cost. I love flying; it's the most fun I've ever had with my clothes on :-) But it's heartbreaking that the costs have kept me from being the pilot I've always wanted to be.

[@Matt-mo8sl]

I feel ya. I got my private in 1992 and in 31 years I have only accrued 340 hours. Just too much money when I have a mortgage, 2 car payments, a credit card payment and everything else that costs way more nowadays. Throw in 3 teenage kids, not much flying for this guy.

[@Flow-.-]

@@Matt-mo8sl Where you ever interested in going to CPL or did you already have a good steady job when you got that PPL?

[@timothy____1989]

Same here. PPL in the late 80s, slowly worked my way to an instrument, multi-engine, and commercial in the 90s, military deployments, 2x enrolled in a CFI program, then 9/11 hit and the mom& pop schools shuttered, taking my block time payment with them and disappearing while I was again deployed each time. The VA kept turning their flight reimbursements on then off again at the only university within driving distance with a flight program, plus they weren’t too keen on training a CFI who hadn’t come up thru their program. Then the 1500 hour rule kicked in and now that I’m 60 my dream of flying for the a living is almost dead. Last flight was in 2017-I tried to go take a currency flight with an instructor and after a 1.3 hour flight in a C-172 I was out close to $500. 375+ hours TT, 75+ hours multi engine…just for the memories, I guess. Would still like to be a CFI someday.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

Exactly, try to maintain IFR

[@Matt-mo8sl]

@@Flow-.- Nah, never really had any desire to get a commercial rating or instrument but bow in my early 50's, i wish I had done it but too much money.

[@jgbaugh]

Things are ridiculous. I just purchased a CHT probe. In 2014 it cost $72 (and was over priced). Today it cost $227. Inflation doesn’t account for it. Someone is gouging someone. This is a common scenario when trying to maintain aircraft.

[@geraldheinig1473]

Totally agree. I do my own maintenance (I have an EASA Part-66 licence) and my last annual for my Mooney M20G, for which I did *all* the maintenance work still cost me over €1000! More than a grand for a signature and some paperwork is a complete rip-off!

[@davidsklar1988]

Man fing man

[@tdkeyes1]

One word, insurance. Blame Trial Lawyers looking for deep pockets for a widow who doesn't care that her dead husbands crappy flying killed him and would rather blame the maker of a defective CHT sender, who is 1% guilty of causing his distracted flying, yet is assigned 100% of the damages. The USA desperately needs Tort Reform, as evidenced by the personal injury billboards lining the highways.

[@RetiredLover]

The same applies to anyone who buys a yacht and has any repairs done in a marina….especially in the Windward Islands.

[@geraldheinig1473]

@@tdkeyes1 This may be true for the US, I would say less so for Europe. Europe has the problem of an over-regulated maintenance ruleset plus sky-high taxes on fuel. The costs of obtaining an EASA Part 145 certification for a repair shop (equivalent to a certified FAA maintenance certification) are prohibitive and are incurred annually, massively raising maintenance costs for owner-pilots and simultaneously preventing any competition from entering the market. The result is a small market, preventing economies of scale, massive demand from the existing customer base (ie. pilots-owners) and highly restricted supply (due to over-regulation). The end result are hugely inflated prices and poor service, and ultimately, degraded safety.

[@jordanharvey5739]

Heartbreaking. All I’ve ever wanted to do is fly since I was young. Watching the goalposts move farther and farther away each time I approach them rips my heart out

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

I'm sure the person that had either inherited the money and wealth or gained wealth that can fly feels for you. It sucks. However if you really want to fly your going to have to push for better wages, and reforms.

[@davidholubetz177]

@jordanharvey5739 Make friends with a private pilot, someone who has a small GA plane. Offer to chip in for gas, take them out afterwards for a few beers. There's lots of pilots out there who would love to share an hour in the air with you, would prob even let you take the stick or yoke for a while. Flying's not hard. Cost may push a license out of reach but it shouldn't break your heart.

[@joehall7883]

About the only way most of us can fly is through a flying club, which I'm blessed to be a part of..look for one of those around You.

[@davidholubetz177]

@@joehall7883 That's a great solution IF they have an airplane that fits your mission profile, budget, etc.

[@Backup-xyz123]

@jordanharvey5739 you may want to look at power paragliding. It is a very affordable way into aviation. Regular gliders are much more affordable as well than general aviation

[@123cp8]

I stopped flying because I simply couldn’t justify, much less afford, the cost. Kind of heartbreaking.

[@MrGriff305]

But at least you've experienced it. You've achieved it, and you'll always be a pilot.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

@@MrGriff305 And why should it end with him? Why should it be he achieved it and yet we can't no that is not acceptable. He shouldn't have been forced to stop due to unfair prices and we shouldn't be denied for the same thing.

[@MrGriff305]

@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent Yeah.. Damn the man. I'm glad you are aware of his personal situation and justifications (which I guess he's saying are driven by money through poor English). In any case, despite my attempt to be positive, I agree with your harsh correction regarding your idea that all poor people should have every luxury including flying private airplanes. Everything should be free or at least have government regulated profits. Socialism is the best.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

@@MrGriff305 You can have all of this with capitalism. The issue isn't capitalism, the issue is that in a capitalist system there has to be a check and balance that insures that people can and are allowed to afford to buy goods or luxuries and that companies and the government doesn't abuse via corruption and greed. That means better wages to ensure they keep up with inflation, reforms on companies and legal systems. I do believe like a vehicle a person should have good judgement and responsibility and proper training to use a aircraft. Unlike a car there is plenty of more things to understand to properly use a aircraft, not everyone can fly and so yes there must be rules and laws in place for safety and responsibility. That being said I feel that at most light aircraft should be available for the public at large with reasonable prices (especially if wages increase to match the current prices in today's economy) Look I don't think it should be like everyone can have the money to afford say a Diamond or a vintage WWII fighter, but at most being able to have a decent job and being able to afford say a starting aircraft like a cessna or similar should be agreeable. Not to mention if you get more people to fly, you keep other people in business. airfields, cargo transport, tourism etc. Honestly I'm getting tired of hearing about middle class people being pushed out due to rising cost for a hobby or life style while the rich ends up having exclusivity to it.

[@MrGriff305]

@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent You lost me at a system that ensures people can have luxuries. Glad I could trigger you to try thinking. Good luck with understanding how the world works, particularly regarding relative luxuries.

[@tangobear3536]

In a nation where buying a house is so difficult. owning a plane is completely off the table. Most people go broke on three things: house, car, healthcare. There is a dwindling number of people who can afford anything beyond those 3 things.

[@dannydaw59]

I paid off all that stuff. I'm gunna try and get a vfr license within a few years.

[@eeroala5132]

Very true. As a nation we are not as prosperous as we were in the previous generation.

[@davidgiles5030]

Well said. The # 1 cause of personal bankruptcy in the USA is a medical situation. If you lived in Canada as I do that wouldn't be an issue. Our problem is runaway infaltion and wages not keeping up.

[@kennyg1358]

​@@davidgiles5030those are symptoms of Canada's problem. Most Canadians have embraced socialism of which economic ruin is a feature not a bug.

[@Falke615]

Add the fact that most of our generation is burdened with student loans with compound interest. You can't expect people to pay for luxury items while in debt slavery.

[@gregoryschmidt1233]

My grandfather had a Cub with floats in rural Northern Wisconsin in the 50's. I think he took about 2 lessons from a buddy of his, and then he was off and flying! I'm not sure if he ever actually got certified. I know he took 3 of his buddies up to Canada on a float-fishing trip. They just followed highways until they found a lake that looked good. It's probably a miracle that he never killed himself or anyone else, but man, the freedom...

[@Mr_Bones.]

I wish we had the best of both world’s today. Cheap flying lessons and highly effective modern training. I will say this, it has not escaped my notice that the majority of (but not all) of modern GA accidents are by older pilots 👀

[@derektinsley9500]

@@Mr_Bones.In part because that is where the money is.

[@not_listening2792]

@@Mr_Bones. Why does everyone want other people to work for cheap, and they get paid top dollar?

[@davidholubetz177]

@gregoryschmidt1233 Your grandpa was a king. Lived like a real man and if he'd crashed he would have died like one too. Lived in a world not yet taken over by pussys. From a fellow cheesehead.

[@justinkelley9700]

Nearly the same story here. Grandfather had a cub, no floats but never got more than a couple lessons. Him and my father knocked the wings off overshooting there landing twice and rebuilt them before ultimately my grandmother said the cub had to go lol

[@shamandgg]

I used to be a private pilot, it was great adventure. Stopped at around 200fh as I couldn’t afford it anymore.

[@nofurtherwest3474]

But can you get hired to fly cargo and stuff? Or small planes for business executives?

[@bradfordparker6639]

No he cannot.

[@yoshuaposhua25]

@@nofurtherwest3474not until he reaches 250 hours and completes all requirements for the commercial pilots certification. if they’re in america that is

[@SteelTallon]

I'm 51 and am finally able to afford lessons without taking a bank loan. Buying and maintaining an airplane is another story. Even "cheap" sport aircraft are more than my new car.

[@Mobev1]

I’m 51 too, about where are you located? I’ve done medical and have about 80 hours flying many different planes. I was just having fun knowing my mother was sick and I’d be out a while. I was and she passed and I’m about done as the executor. Buy a sport cruiser if you are under 200 pounds. I’d wait a bit longer until the mosaic rules are finalized. I’m in Virginia.

[@kaasmeester5903]

Same here, I started my lessons at 53. I looked around, cheapest was €12000 for 45 hours, ground school, written exams and check ride. I live practically next to a small airport so I went with a flight school located there, and I hope to have the check ride soon. But I'll have spent around €18000... Even on a good income it's hard to afford that kind of outlay on a hobby. I can't justify it either, but I had some money sitting in the bank, and what with inflation and all I thought: why not spend it on something that I've always dreamed of doing? No regrets so far!

[@SteelTallon]

@@kaasmeester5903 yes, my school is 5 mins away. I've tried a couple times in my life to get my license. But, always ran out of money or time. Now with a good job, and some extra money I think I will finally get it done. I'm doing my solo x country soon, and then it's check ride time. I also went with a Sport pilot license which is half the time and money. Spent about $4k I suppose, so far.

[@SteelTallon]

@@Mobev1 I'm in Idaho

[@jonascarlsson1290]

also 51, got my ticket 10 months ago. if you're ok with an old clunker then keep looking around. visit local fly-ins. get the word out. world is full of 80+ pilots who want a good new owner for their old plane. it worked for me - i found a beat up old 140 that set me back little more than my admittedly too expensive PP cert. fixed costs blow $3k/year and then gas + fixing things that breaks on top of that. not a cheap hobby but also not completely unobtainable for normal people.

[@windhover2021]

I was a highly motivated private pilot by the time I graduated high school. Some of the best fun I've had. But I had to stop flying shortly thereafter because I never made enough money to keep going. I ended up with somewhere around 70 hrs. My passion to fly is just as strong as it was back then but I simply can't afford it.

[@smoothdance]

I’ll tell you what happened to general aviation. It’s not rocket science. It’s too expensive.

[@boatlover2296]

It’s been my experience over the last 40 years that (along with everything else!) general aviation has become very expensive, and bogged down with regulation.

[@back2basics668]

WHEN an airplane costs more than some houses and the rental costs per hour are more than a MONTHLY CAR payment- .......yeah there is a BIG PROBLEM!!!!

[@MikeRetsoc]

You are doing it wrong.

[@back2basics668]

I am open to learning, let me know what I am doing wrong@@MikeRetsoc

[@LEKSANDER01]

@@MikeRetsoc how so?

[@Thermalburn]

Yeah its definitely the cost of everything. My dad was a pilot and I grew up in a middle class family. He was able to buy his own Piper, and we would fly almost every weekend. Now I'm older with a family of my own, and consider myself middle class, but I can barely afford groceries let alone the costs associated with a private plane. I kick myself for not just getting my license when I was younger while my dad had the plane; I've been flying since I was 8 years old, and did everything except the checkride because of some stuff that happened in my life. I feel like I can never have that opportunity again. Oh well, I'll play flight simulators forever I guess...

[@icecold9511]

VR for me. Bests what we had 20 years ago.

[@SeaHusker54]

Originally went to college to become a professional pilot but dropped out after a year. The cost of going to school and pilot training was astronomical. 7 years later I finally went back and got my PPL, but costs were still through the roof. I haven’t flown since and that was 3.5 years ago :/

[@Mk1SpitfireGuy]

Move that decimal place one spot to the right, and it's me.

[@linkfreeman1998]

​@@Mk1SpitfireGuywell, might as well forget about the license altogether, if you really cant do it anymore. Not to be disrespectful but sometimes, some things are so painful to learn, yet u cant use it in day to day basis, that u wish u just actually forget about it.

[@SeaHusker54]

@@linkfreeman1998 that’s pretty much the whole point of my comment. Though I’d disagree on the wanting to forget all my training/knowledge part. I found a job in the aviation world working on Flight Simulators. The basic Private Pilot Aeronautical knowledge is truly invaluable working in any field of aviation. I still would love to be a pilot one day/get all my ratings, but that dream is more than likely going to move on without me.

[@jackal2568]

I'm training as a helicopter pilot. The vast majority of students at my school are veterans paying with the GI Bill because were the only ones that can afford it lol

[@thengine7]

Overreaching safety from the FAA has added too many costs. We all know it. But the government is super happy with how ham-fisted their regulations are.

[@smoguli]

I'd rather not have an incompetent private pilot crash on my house with his poorly maintained plane, thank you very much.

[@user-ej9jq2zf1y]

I am 65 and wanted to start back flying since completing 60 hours back in the late 80s, but even being retired with majority of my major bills paid off still can only fly a few hours or so a month. Simply cannot afford racking up a bunch of flying time which is very frustrating!

[@stevendegiorgio3143]

I got my private pilots certificate back in 1983 and I paid a total of $3400,everything included,today that same pilots certificate would cost upwards of $20,000.I used to rent a Cessna 152 for $40.00/hour,today its more than $100.00/hour for the very same old airplane(VFR only)

[@diveforknowledge]

Where are you paying 100/hr? I'm seeing 180-200 locally.

[@theblunderbussbrothers9547]

Prices per hour for a 152 in Las Vegas back in 2017 was $215/hr. You've got a deal if you're finding $100/hr somewhere!

[@Patriot-bn9om]

I dug up my records from getting my PPL in 1997-98. I paid $45/hr for a Piper Tomahawk. The Instructor was only $20/hr. By 2001-02, I was paying $75/hr for a Warrior and $85/hr for an Archer II and $28/hr for an instructor if I needed to get re-certified on the flight school aircraft. It seemed expensive at the time, but looks like a bargain today.

[@luiskaj2434]

Here in Canada the prices are insane: renting a Cessna 152 is $160 Cdn ($120 USD), Cessna 172S is $200 ($150 USD), PA28 Arrow is $210 ($157USD), and a PA44 Seminole is $385 ($288 USD) per hour rental (Waterloo Wellington Flight School, Kitchener, Ontario, about an hour west of Toronto)...

[@ABQSentinel]

The dream of General Aviation from the Golden Age of Aviation, right after WWll was that aviation would be the next great adventure for American families. Sadly, it has died on the vine. It was a combination of things from over-reaching, heavy-handed government agencies (*cough*FAA*cough*) and their ridiculous medical requirements which, as we have seen recently, don't actually make aviation any safer. Medical reforms to improve access to aviation were too-little/too-late. Then there was the skyrocketing costs of training, the ridiculous inflation rates on 50 year-old planes that were originally meant to be able to purchased, brand new, by the average family, but now cost as much as a house! Let's also not forget skyrocketing fuel costs (thanks to America-LAST energy policies implemented by certain politicians). Oh, and then we have the vanishing landscape of airports, thanks to the unending procession of Karens and their complaints about airplane noise even though THEY were the ones who bought a house next to an airport. And let's go ahead and round out this list by mentioning the ridiculously long set of testing standards being implemented by far too few DPEs who, themselves, have no standards by which THEY operate. Yeah, the dream of General Aviation is dead for all but the top 10%.

[@AngryVet44]

1. USA Oil companies have drilling rights they ARE NOT USING TO KEEP OIL AND GAS PRICES UP. 2.The USA is also the largest exporter of oil and gas. The XL pipeline though Americans think pumping heavy Canadian Tarsand oil across our entire country (risking poisoning our water or explosions that kill everything for a mile) to Texas to be refined at Koch industries refineries is going to benefit AMERICANS in reality it is THEN SHIPPED TO CHINA AND ABROAD NOT FOR USE IN THE USA. 3. Maybe you should demand that we nationalize the HIGHLY TAXPAYER SUBSIDIZED oil and gas industry as it intentionally price gouged the hell out of you for its own benefit. 🙄 (WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVEN UNDER ANY “communist” DEMOCRAT) But even Joe Biden thinks that corporate America should be able to do what ever it wants including price gouge the hell out of American citizens. He only MEEKLY asks the gas companies to lower their prices. BECAUSE…. “He’s a capitalist, He BEAT the socialist” Bernie Sanders 🙄

[@ABQSentinel]

@@AngryVet44 Amazing... every word of what you just said is wrong.

[@jackr2287]

Without an existing pilot with the correct licensing willing to take pity on you these days... training is effectively out of the question. I'm limited to simulators and a vague hope that maybe things will improve.

[@skyboy1956]

wait ! You threw a pity party and didn't invite me ? ! ? ! ? !

[@VGreggUndercover]

GA is in fact dying. Im an A&P IA that used to make $25/hr at a GA flight school/GA shop. I was Forced to move into the private jet world and I started at $36/hr and now my work load is cut in half with much less headaches. Most GA shops only charge $90/hr shop rate so they can’t afford to pay or keep good mechanics around. Pretty sad you can make more at Chicfila or waiting tables than most GA shops can pay. Yet automotive shops easily charge $160-200/ shop hour. GA will continue to die if this trend doesn’t change

[@baconsnake6463]

The interest in working on GA planes is pretty much dead. In my A&P program of about 80 there’s only 3-4 people interested in working in GA be corporate and airlines pay better with better benefits as well

[@VGreggUndercover]

@@baconsnake6463 yep exactly. It’s insane that the GA shops want to start you out at the same wage janitors make. Yet we go through intensive schooling and carry a lot of liability maintaining old antique planes

[@patrickgreen6902]

I started flying in California in the 70’s, my ground school and achieving my private pilots license, cost me $1,800, as the years passed, instrument, multi engine and multi engine certification was paid for by military benefits, as the years went buy, you couldn’t find anything to fly, Van Nuys shied away to smaller planes and big jets took over, my former air field in Lancaster closed its tower, and now here in London, you cannot find any big iron to fly, seems like many things have changed.😢

[@MarioLoco03]

I am a student pilot who is funding my own lessons. It is expensive as hell. $145/hr for plane rental, $65/hr for instructor time, $6+ per gallon of 100LL...Im about 1/3 of the way done, its too late to turn back and quit because i have several thousands of dollars already put into this. I wish this was cheaper and more attainable. Im doing it just for GA, not trying to work as a pilot.

[@mylifeisalie6781]

Currently going through my PPL classes and for 57 hours of flight, it has cost 15.5k... it is utterly insane

[@Dwaynesaviation]

Where are you training? I'm training in Poland, my zero to ATPL is €50,000... I couldn't afford anything in England where I live, they are all upwards of €120,000 here. It's cheaper to fly to Poland every week

[@mylifeisalie6781]

@@Dwaynesaviation North east United States (Ohio)

[@chriscusick6890]

I learned to fly in the early 70's and it cost me $1,500. I used to rent a C-150 for $7.50/ hour wet.

[@rylanthompson5844]

@@chriscusick68907.50$ an hr?? What the hell?? That’s at LEAST like $100 today

[@Brettjomsland_]

I feel you. I've got my PPL and am working on my IR. Spent about $20,000 for 130 hours. It's brutal. Work a lot, study ground 4+ hours a day, and watch a lot of KZbin videos to learn. How I stumbled upon this one, only thing that keeps me going is going outside, looking up, and watching many other pilots 37,000ft in the air live their dreams.

[@hnewman2907]

The price is a barrier but there’s also people who want to do many things and never do because they just don’t go for it, no matter if it’s aviation, starting a business, or in general a dream of theirs. It’s up to you

[@AncoraImparoPiper]

Not going for it even though there is no price barrier ( maybe you or your parents are rich), is one thing. Not being able to go for it due to cost, is another. The two cannot be compared.

[@redfoxtactical8425]

I've wanted to fly my whole life. Was flying study level aircraft in MSFS way back when I was 11 or so. But I'm very rapidly realizing I'll never be able to afford it. I worked 2 jobs to put myself through college. Got a really good paying job as a Software engineer. Even worked for a fortune 100 Aerospace company. And even I can't even dream of having the money to fly. Most of my generation can't even afford new cars. And a new single engine GA plane costs as much as a Ferrari anymore for something pretty entry level. An old 1970s PA-28 costs 70-80,000. Plus another 20,000-30,000 just to leave it sitting in a hangar ready to fly. These prices are absolutely killing the hobby and honestly I think that's the goal. It's depressing to know I'll never get to live that dream. And that just a few generations ago it was so achievable. But ill get over it eventually and just throw it on the pile of dreams we were sold that died long before I was born.

[@linkfreeman1998]

Maybe some things better off never existed rather than simply exist to hurt us...

[@shanesplanetshane3795]

Have you looked into paramotors or power parachutes? It isnt the same as GA, but its flying at a reasonable cost, w/o excessive regulation (yet). Flying is flying, and the view from a butt fan lawn chair, is still great! Only 3x's more expensive than my last $4000 car. Worth it!

[@timothy____1989]

Back in the 80s-90s there were 5-6 airports around our city where a person could either enroll in a flight school, rent a plane or join a flying club with the joys of part-ownership of a C-172. Now there’s only 3-4 airports, only 1 has a flight school associated with a university program, 1 other airport has a Cessna for rent, if you can afford it, and all the other airports are commercial or executive only. There was one flying club a few years back with a waiting list measured in decades, and now it’s gone as well.

[@Traproop]

that waiting lidt probably why its gone

[@RunningMan630]

I finally gave up flying because of the cost. My check ride back in 1982 cost $60. My last BFR in 2021 at the same FBO cost $400. The Cherokee 180 I was flying went to $156/hour, plus tax.

[@baomao7243]

My basic PPL check ride in 2021 was almost $1000. And that was after searching for a DPE - they were in short supply.

[@blainepetsupplies5354]

My check ride last summer was $450

[@baomao7243]

@@blainepetsupplies5354 My GA pilot checkride 2 yrs back (near Sacramento, CA) was $800-$900. You had to fight to even get on their calendar a few months out. 😳

[@peteorengo5888]

This is the most comprehensive video I have seen about the subject. All the factors mentioned are significant. It’s sad to see GA decline.

[@Fitch93]

I don't even know where to start, but you pretty well covered it all in this video. What's interesting is the seeming massive disconnect between the Manufacturers and their intended customer base. Look at the DA-40 you mentioned, it's a 4 seat twin, and it STARTS at well north of $1million. If you have that kind of money to spend on a plane you're sure as hell NOT going to be buying a 4 seat reciprocating twin. There also the overall GA communities refusal to recognize or even acknowledge their number 1 problem. They want to wring their hands and have seminars and conventions and conferences where they talk about how to grow the GA community, but if you bring up cost, they throw you out of the proverbial board room window. Further, what token nod they do make towards costs, in the form of scholarships, are all aimed at a single demographic..a 16-19 year old kid, a kid who has ZERO interest in GA flying, his only goal is to go fly the big jets. Yet they continue to award the scholarships on the hope that maybe someday, when that kid retires from the airlines in 40 years, he'll have saved enough up to buy a 4 place single and come to their Fly-Ins. In my own personal view, right now the GA communities biggest hurdle, is itself.

[@GhostZodick]

I am interested in Aviation. The only reason stopping is how expensive it is to make flying worth the trouble. Flying for fun is already expensive enough. But if I want to use an airplane as a convenient transportation, the cost goes up exponentially.

[@GonzoT38]

Factory certified rules is what made me finally give up and sell my airplane and exit after 3 airplanes and 13 years of ownership. The hobby has simply jumped the shark. I keep an eye at going experimental in the future, but asking prices have also run away after 2020, and it's simply overpriced for me as someone who knows what these things traded for a mere 3 years ago. Maybe an economic or credit lending collapse will restore some of my purchasing power, until then they can keep their moribund hobby.

[@GhostZodick]

@@GonzoT38 exactly. I see airlines complaining about pilot shortage. Who can afford to fly with today's price? I'd already have to have a healthy 6 figure income to even get into aviation.

[@lgarcia67]

Great analysis! Same thing happened to me; I got discouraged. Flying a Cessna in the 40’s and 50’s was kind of like driving a car nowadays, very simple. If you want to fly today in very crowded skies you need more complex equipment, and learn all those regulations. I don’t have neither time nor money for that.

[@lakerenegadepilot6211]

The biggest issue with any industry has been liability injury lawyers. This drove insurance, certification, regulations higher.

[@MatthewHarrisLawPLLC]

I don't know that we're the problem. Often, those lawsuits came from companies putting profits ahead of safety and people getting hurt.

[@davedoe6445]

@@MatthewHarrisLawPLLC Those are just different words for: "only the very rich should fly"

[@julianbrelsford]

Davedoe I think it's more complicated than that. Most of the lawsuits against Piper - Cessna - Beech an the like were the result of real people dying, and then lawyers, judges, and members of the general public concluding that it was possible to do better. Of course when it came right down to it, doing better ended up costing a lot of money. To this day, it's possible to fly for way cheaper than the price of flying certified GA planes. There's ultralights, there are experimental planes, but the question becomes, are you willing to put up with the risks and compromises inherent in those less regulated areas of aviation?

[@KitYeeScott]

Yes real people died, usually because of pilot error. The manufacturer was held financially responsible in many cases bespcause they were the ‘deep pockets’. If you look at the case that put the Piper cub out of production Piper was found 2% responsible for the accident && 100% responsible for the fines. Even worse a jury decided that despite being flown safely for over many years a tail wheel aircraft was an unsafe design over riding the FAA certification.

[@badawesome]

That's what lawyers tell themselves so they can sleep at night. Why is it that only rich people or those with large insurance policies get sued. I guess it must be because poor people can do no wrong and only evil rich people cause others to get hurt.@@MatthewHarrisLawPLLC

[@rayschoch5882]

Dad was a Navy fighter pilot in WW 2, having learned to fly in college via ROTC, and we were part-owners of a V-tailed Bonanza when I was very young. When I became an adult, I'd have been happy to become a GA pilot, but even in the 1960s, the cost was prohibitive. An old man now, with physical infirmities that make piloting impractical, the cost remains prohibitive for all the reasons listed near the end of the video. I still like airplanes, still look up when one passes overhead, and have, on rare occasions, flown a couple of them, but in general, flying has become a boutique hobby for the affluent. I'm too old, and not affluent enough, to take part.

[@frankienv3906]

The same with me, but I did the next best thing, I got involved in Flying large model airplanes, It's just a scaled down version of what I always wanted to do, FLY. 😁👍

[@JPM6691]

My Dad was also a navy pilot in WW2 and was a part owner in a V tail Bonanza in the 1960s. I got my PPL in 1966. Frivolous lawsuits ruined General Aviation.

[@blaster-zy7xx]

I got my PPL about 15 years ago and flew quite a bit in light sport planes. Since the vast majority of flying is really done with one or two people, it was a cost effectively alternative. But even this got way more expensive over time to today. The place renting me my planes out was a victim of the Covid shut down and they never recovered. Now I’m grounded.

[@Ezlivin]

I wanted to do something extraordinary: Get a private pilot's license. It was extraordinary because I'm a paraplegic who cannot walk and must use a wheelchair. I managed to find a CFI willing to take me on. I obtained a set of hand controls for Piper aircraft and started my training. (I did ground school on my on and passed the test before taking flight lessons.) I completed my training and obtain my VFR pilot's license in '93. But the cost of fuel and aircraft rental ultimately became too much and I "retired" from flying. I cannot imagine young people getting into GA today with the cost of fuel, rental and instruction.

[@JimCar71]

Far too expensive. I am one of those that have dreamed to fly and saved the money to pay for my training. The costs of flying/renting/owning/maintaining has slipped beyond my financial ability (and I’m middle class). Sure, I can rent a 50 year old plane with minimal IFR capabilities for a couple of hours a month but that’s not safe nor fun in my opinion. So I just fly VR MFS and Vatsim.

[@badawesome]

why is everyone abbreviating everything

[@dennisstoesz]

What you want ifr for.?

[@dennisstoesz]

@@badawesome Paper shortage.

[@petercyr3508]

I remember in the early 70s, you could get a Champ or T Craft for $2500. A really nice J3 was maybe $4000. So now it is 15 to 20 times that. Incomes have not gone up nearly that much. Maybe 10 times.

[@dennisstoesz]

Equivalent

[@shyammohabir8283]

I don't think it is a general lack of interest in aviation. The issue is it is too expensive to become a pilot- for a private VFR it will run you at an average $30K (third-class medical certificate., ground school (FAA requires 40 hours but reality 50-60 hrs) flight training -maneuvers, solo flight, night flight, cross country, emergency procedures, Checkride (oral exam, flight), Written Exam, and every time you rent an aircraft for training it runs you about $300 + you'll have to pay the instructor). cost of flight books and training materials, pay for security passes at airport -- many people dream of becoming a pilot but cannot afford it!!

[@adamsrosales6519]

30k is an exaggeration. It’s more like 15k, if not less. You can absolutely find schools that will cost 30k, but it’s not “average.”

[@deltaskyhawk]

We need more economical training aircraft for starters. Using 172 for training burns 8-9 gal per hour. That is like $80-90 per hour for fuel. When airlines train pilots, they use simulators not aircraft. It is a very expensive hobby, and a high entry cost for a career.

[@lethargicstove2024]

I hope to become a pilot, but if it's too expensive I might go down the air force route.

[@Flatspinjim]

Avgas is not $10 a gallon. Maybe in SOCAL, but most places its more like $6-7 depending on where you are. Also if you rent, you rent wet. So you don't pay for gas unless you're going X-country and need to refuel somewhere. But yes, plane prices are insane from just 4-5 years ago.

[@Tidepodss]

@@Flatspinjimat my school fuel is 13 a gallon

[@Czar_Loko]

@@lethargicstove2024I’m a pilot. If you’re wanting to make it a career , you’ll make Pennies in the Airforce compared to what even a regional will pay you. And the Airforce is likely to lock you in past the expiration of your contract as a pilot. Have afew friends who fly for both army and Airforce and out of the 5 of them only 1 didn’t get a stopgap put on them when exiting the military. Not worth it imo. You’re better off with the loan route these days.

[@cwr8618]

@@lethargicstove2024you’re talking about 2 years in flight school then another 6 years of payback flying the aircraft before you can transition to airlines.

[@bertiesworld]

Money. The great divider. I got up to about 65 hours, flown some solos and then took a step back. Looked at the sums and, much as I loved flying around, decided it was a rich person's game. I came down to earth and went out and bought a high powered adrenaline rush motor bike. I had quite some fun on that too. I still go up the local airfield but it looks more and more deserted with not many people around.

[@Gator_Bait_Motorsports]

I started flying in 1964 at the age of 13 in an Aeronca 7AC which rented for $11.75 an hour for dual instruction. I collected pop bottles and mowed lawns to earn enough for a half hour lesson every couple of weeks. They sold the Aeronca and replaced it with a new Cessna 150 in 1966, that rented for $16.00 an hour dual. I bought an Luscombe 8E in 1975 for $4200 and got my private ticket in it. I bought a 1971 Cherokee 140D for $8500 and in 1976 bought a Piper Apache 150 for $12,900 to build time on, Gas was $1.00 a gallon, but the Apache held 108 gallons. I sold the Apache and bought a 1972 Pitts S1C for $10,000. in 1978. Operating costs were getting out of hand, so I sold the Pitts and joined a flying club until costs outrun my ability to pay. I flew for 50 years. It was hard to give it up. I still look up every time a plane flies overhead, with a tear in my eye.

[@longhairwhocares]

My dude you must be crying all damn day if that’s the case

[@windriver72]

I stated flying in 1984, a Cherokee was $29/hr wet. Now I can't afford to fly. It's too expensive!!!!!

[@wassermutt7805]

If it's dying, who is buying all the planes and causing prices to be 2-3X what they were 4 years ago?

[@rudyho3790]

yeh.. lololl...chinamen..$$$

[@freecitizen7372]

The price to get a pilot license has risen dramatically since the 1990’s. The price for airplanes and parts has risen dramatically since the Covid pandemic and supply chain shortages. This also resulted in flight schools shutting down.

[@Matt-mo8sl]

Yup, 3500 dollars and 67 hours for me in 1992.

[@Food.Dog.Car.]

​@Matt-mo8sl probably closer to the 15-20k mark for that many hours nowadays.

[@baconsnake6463]

Some parts on the lycoming io 360 are backordered almost 4-5 months

[@Jason-vm3lz]

I a bought airplane and got my license in that airplane. My insurance was $1400 for the year and I was told when you get your licenses and 100 hours that cost would go down. A year later and 100 hours on airplane and insurance went up to $2200 for the year.

[@Patriot-bn9om]

I got my pilots license 25 years ago. I accumulated about 60 hours getting my license. I tried to stay current by renting a plane and flying at least monthly. I logged only about 25 hours over the next three years. I hit a snag when weather didn’t cooperate and I couldn't fly for a couple of months. Then, the next time I tried to fly, the flight school wouldn’t rent me a plane because I was one day past their 2-month rule for renting a plane without flying again with an instructor. Before I could get that scheduled, I also hit the point needing the biennial flight review. My flying career essentially ended. Renting planes is problematic and not useful for anything other than local flying. Owning a plane is the best solution for travel and building hours. Now, I can afford to buy a plane but there are years long waiting lists to get hangar space at all airports near me. For me to fly again, I would have to basically start over as a pilot. It’s daunting. I know a long list of people who have private pilot licenses but basically gave up and fell by the wayside from barrier after barrier stacking up against them. If we could keep more of these pilots from quitting, they'd make a dent in the supply of older planes. I think we may need some type of a whole of industry effort, including getting the government and insurance companies on board, to build and sustain general aviation with more seamless pilot development, currency, and access to aircraft and hangar space. The current pilot shortage may be a tool to get this started. There's a brilliant solution out there somewhere. Let's find it.

[@RCAvhstape]

That's basically my experience as well. At this point so much time has passed that the idea of me flying professionally is out of the question, and even flying again seems farther out of reach as time goes by.

[@davidsklar1988]

I thought about being a pilot a great freedom from driving but as fast as a plane is I found it is cheaper to drive 😢

[@derektinsley9500]

A very good video but E.A.A (Experimental Aircraft Association) should be mentioned or be covered in a video. Home built aircraft are registered Experimental because they do not get type certificates but are never the less very sound. This is where the heart and soul of general aviation is, even some owners of store bought planes have a home built The annual fly in, held at Oshkosh is spectacular, with hundreds of planes and pilots in attendance, even Concorde was showcased at a fly-in or two when it was new. EAA has had a lot to do with keeping general aviation alive and well but the money problem has surfaced here as well. Used to be you could buy a six cylinder air cooled horizontally opposed engine military surplus, intended for G.P.U., not used, for a song. Put the engine in your plane and be in the sky for a thousand or two. This is what EAA is all about. I apologize to all who know this as well as I do, but when it comes to aviation I can not hold back.

[@davidholubetz177]

@derektinsley9500 Great post ! EAA is a wonder and Oshkosh is Mecca for us aviation enthusiasts.

[@tonepilot]

I gave up flying and sold my planes when it become a chore. Just a short cross country would take over an hour of paperwork. Getting the weather, filing a flight plan, measuring fuel, doing a careful walk around, doing the passenger briefing, filling in the propeller log, engine log, airframe log, pilot logbook, getting the latest NOTAMS, etc. By the time I left home, got to the airport, flew an hour, came back and got home, over half the day was gone. Then there's the annual where your nice airplane is taken apart and is always returned to you with new scratches and parts that don't fit as well anymore.

[@dr.chrisketo7193]

Since 2000 there have been more flight instructors than student pilots in Germany. There is no longer any point in becoming a flight instructor. I gave away my Oldtimer Airplane for 1 € and that’s it.

[@Cj-xl3jv]

I work on both newer and older GA aircraft and I can say without a doubt, older planes were just built better. I can foresee a 172M from 1973 lasting much longer than a newer 172S. Edit: also I’m glad you mentioned part cost. Some Cessna/Lycoming parts in particular are insane. $25,000 for a new O-320 is asinine. I don’t know how private owner/operators do it.

[@baconsnake6463]

A 1992 slick magneto capacitor alone is $300 and a lycoming training io-360, the high part cost is hurting A&P programs aswell as a single broken part can use up 1/2 a classes worth of lab fees

[@jasonhurdlow6607]

In what way are the older planes built better? Just curious.

[@Cj-xl3jv]

⁠@@jasonhurdlow6607I see a lot of manufacturing defects with newer aircraft. Missing rivets, terrible QC and materials. I attribute it to a general lack of “care” when assembling these very overpriced aircraft. Maybe it was the Textron acquisition finally showing its ugly head but the workmanship is a night and day difference.

[@jasonhurdlow6607]

@@Cj-xl3jv That's very concerning. Have you ever reported/shown this to any of the appropriate TLAs? I'd think they'd want to correct that situation.

[@davidholubetz177]

Just saw an IO-390 for sale for $55K ! Crazy.

[@terrykeith4791]

I began flying as a private pilot in the 70’s. I enjoyed it for many years but eventually had to stop because of the cost. It just got too expensive. I still miss it though.

[@kene8895]

It's just much too expensive to think about starting.

[@Rick-v]

One correction. Mooney did not focus on easy to fly aircrafts. Mooney aircrafts are complex aircrafts by definition with retractable landing gear and high performance.

[@gabekremer7148]

I own a J model and also fly a G model uou clearly have no experience with them. Very easy to fly and 90% of the crap people spread about them is false

[@user-kc3op2oj2t]

Yeah, Mooneys are like Bonanzas for smaller people. 😄

[@ZhihengCao]

You are mistaken, mooney is low but not for short people. It is like Ferrari or Learjet you can't stand up in one but because you sit down low, even tall people have plenty of legroom and headroom, I am 6'2. @@user-kc3op2oj2t

[@Rick-v]

@@gabekremer7148 it might be easy to fly for you. I ignore your skills on this airplane. It is a complex airplane by definition, you may read a little bit about the definition of complex aircraft here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_airplane

[@badawesome]

and you have to crawl into them

[@sammilbauer9252]

Medical requirements can't be overlooked either. If you take virtually any kind of daily medication you cannot fly. As most of the people with the disposable income to afford flying are older, this immediately cuts a lot of pilots out of the GA market other than for LSA and Part 103 aircraft

[@richardalexander8226]

Amen Brother- if you aren't 25 the FAA carries on like you are ready to fall into a coffin if you take BP meds. When I became hypertensive at age 35, they pretty much harassed me out of the air, even though I was a regular runner and cyclist, a non-smoker without any other risk factors, and with low weight and in great vigor. The meds being what they were at the time, causing impotence, or severe lung congestion, or many other nasty side effects, I minimized my dosage and always took the bare minimum dosage to stay under the limit. Tired of dodging the FAA doctors and the extra expense of EKGs and testing, I pretty much gave up on it. New meds today are much better, but even then YOU NEED TO READ ALL THE LITERATURE AND LOOK OUT FOR HIDDEN SIDE EFFECTS, and make sure it is worth it for you. Today I am 73 and in perfect health and fly flight sim. I am glad I got my license, and had some fun, but believe me, like many other things, once you attain it, it doesn't seem to be all that-

[@mzaite]

To say nothing of the fact that younger people actually care about their health, meaning they also lose their ability to get a medical.

[@drawmaster77]

just did medical last week and because of some medication I am taking "which may cause drowsyness" though I never felt drowsy they told me I need special issuence which is months of extra waiting time if I even manage to get one at all...

[@7775Kevin]

In the seventies I could rent a 172 for about $70 an hour ( roughly). Years later after my kids had graduated high school I thought about starting to fly again but rental costs everywhere I checked had at least doubled and often had increased even more than double. And this was twenty years ago. I don’t even know what rental costs average now but I’m sure it’s prohibitively high. Flying is a thing of the past for me and has been for years.

[@justinreich3486]

About 230$ to 310$

[@gottesma]

I wouldn't be surprised if airline deregulation in the late 70s played a big role. Airline tickets used to be absurdly expensive, making general aviation more attractive. Nowadays, you have to really really enjoy piloting aircraft in order to prefer flying yourself in a c172 vs just buying an airline ticket.

[@rinyvisser1142]

I think that one of the reasons of declining interest in aviation is the fact that more and more small airfields have become controlled airports. That means you have to deal with air traffic control. This undermines the feeling of freedom and self reliance which is one of the main attractions of flying for the fun of it. It's of course not the only reason and perhaps also not the most important one (rising costs in general have a great influence), but I think for many ex pilots and people who think of learning to fly the romantics of flying is declining. This can be found however in flying simple ultra light aircraft, gliding, hanggliding and paragliding. In general, gliding is the most affordable way of gliding in Europe, because it is done by gliding clubs. You don't have to own or even rent a glider.

[@rinyvisser1142]

Gliding is the most affordable way of flying. To hasty on the keyboard...

[@kenstewart5991]

Airports used to be open to the public. The small strips had little or no fencing. I"m talking 50's and 60's. Nowadays a kid can't even get close enough to a plane or pilot to SEE them. How are these kids supposed to get interested in aviation? Looking at a vapor trail 40,000ft in the sky? I wish I could go back. You could buy an Aeronca Cheif in great condition for 900 bucks. And kids could bike over to the airstrip and even touch it. Sit in it.

[@citationjeff]

This is absolutely a huge part of it. What once were magical places to visit are now locked down like a prison.

[@kenstewart5991]

@citationjeff I suppose it could be nessessary in these times but it's a damn shame.Biking to our little airport was the best part of my childhood. By ALOT.

[@bosshog8844]

Just a coincidence that the country was 90% white people at that time. Homogeneous, high-trust societies don't really need to build fences or strip search you to board a plane.

[@starcetus]

I would love to one day own and fly a plane. I once dreamed of having a plane with a renovated interior like a camper that would let me fly freely and basically live out of the plane as I traveled. It was a silly dream but I sadly don't think I'll ever be able to afford to fly even a small plane.

[@fmlstewart]

Why is GA failing? Show me one thing the federal govt regulates and enforces so stringently, that is successful. If the govt wants aviation to be military and commercial only, they will simply regulate and enforce GA out of existence.

[@blackbeardsghost6588]

I served in the U.S. Navy in the mid/late 80's. We had a saying about flying civilian airplanes . . . "I don't have enough of what it takes to keep a general aviation airplane in the air. $$$$$".

[@mattcnc9]

My entire life I loved airplanes and have always wanted my PPL. What erks me the most is that in high school I was diagnosed with ADD And took prescribed stimulants for a few months before stopping. I am now age 24 and have been blessed with a very successful career and flight training is well within my budget. But because of terrible FAA regulations I am not eligible because I took prescribed stimulants almost 10 years ago. I hope one day that the policy will change.

[@jimarcher5255]

Learned to fly while in the military at the Redleg Flying Club at Ft. Sill Oklahoma. The plane was a surplus Piper PA-18. The plane rental was $2.50 per hour wet and the instructor cost another $5.00. Became a civilian and didn’t fly again until G.I. Benefits helped me get a commercial ticket. After that couldn’t afford to fly for 20 years.

[@user-ej9jq2zf1y]

It is frustrating when you love to fly and looking at cost of airplanes today....which is beyond ridiculous! The common lay person can simply cannot afford flying!

[@harryagrotis326]

Not failing but too damn expensive especially to be in a new airplane with modern avionics

[@bryanphillips6088]

Cost is the entire reason I never got my wings. I'm paid well by my job, but not well enough to get a pilot's license and then get my hands on a plane, even renting a plane would be so cost prohibitive I'd rather spend my time doing other hobbies that I can afford to do more regularly.

[@zackriden79]

GA is too expensive when you can buy a fully loaded truck a boat and a house, for the price of a basic four-place new airplane ... I remember reading that a new 172 with inflation should sell for 89k instead its north of a half a million

[@dibert2]

I’ve heard these assertions before but it’s always struck me as a circular argument to say prices are high because demand is low and manufacturers can’t get economies of scale. Now more than ever I feel like whatever the production rate required for a manufacturer to produce solid four seater under $200k, they’d sell every slot. Demand is there - it’s just not there for the price offered. Flight training is so expensive because of the wet rates that have to be charged for the plane.

[@bosshog8844]

Executives' second/third homes aren't going to pay for themselves.

[@definitelynotRoberto]

Another way to look at it is these guys have to acknowledge it's now a cottage industry. Yes, you can make money as a manufacturer, no, you probably won't make enough to buy a yacht. Flight controls and materials haven't changed much, hell, even the engines aren't nearly as advanced as the average automotive engine, today. No reason why planes should cost what they do if economics works the way they say it does (technology gets cheaper with age). Typical 4 cyl engines should be getting spit out at $5-$10k tops, green airframes less than $100k. And considering the glass cockpits are basically a bunch of iPads, no reason they can't be $10k and under. All in, a very nice new plane should be less than $200k, and the builder still makes a healthy profit.

[@badawesome]

I think that when a small Cessna has over $100,000 in product liability built into it, the manufacturer wants the opposite of scale. Economies point to low numbers of aircraft. You would need a new manufacturer building planes in a country that does not recognize lawsuits from the US and only sell them in that country. Someone like Tesla would need to build a gigafactory and stamp aircraft parts at scale that need little finshing due to the design.

[@mellophoneman100]

I began to pursue my PP about ten years ago, however, it became so expensive, and the dream of owning my own aircraft was so far away I gave up. It was no longer worth it to me as a hobby, and I couldn't justify a non hobby pursuit, since I rarely travel so far my own plane would be helpful.

[@musiqtee]

9:35 re the conclusion over economic factors, there is one crucial bit missing. In the 70’s through the mid 90’s, revenue, demand and supply were the largest drivers of change. However, due to LESS regulation in finance since 1990’s, large companies AND potential buyers of GA aircraft financialised their surplus. Meaning that corporations invested in each other, more than “the market” itself. This really drove prices above hobbyists’ reach, as only corporate customers could also write off costs before taxation. Something a mere “human” legally cannot do, without establishing a company to manage VAT and tax after costs. Since the video mentions “regulation” pretty often, a good question would be “who pushed for stricter regulations?”. Well, not the individual private pilots, and not rogue politicians out of the blue. The “influencers” were the industry itself, to - as mentioned - increase profits from less production due to inflationary costs. Corporate wellbeing is now less about sales profits, and much more about surplus from ownership of assets (IP, debt, property, bonds, stock buybacks…). So, more regulations for pilots/people/hobbyists, less regulations for corporate asset management and banking. Now that’s modern public management, right…? 😅👍

[@kiotee_nouw]

"What happened to General Aviation?" - Money. Money kills everything in the end for the many.

[@cturdo]

Government intervention has added cost without a comparative increase in safety. Product liability, insurance and fuel costs have nearly destroyed the industry. Now the need for pilots is desperate, and they still haven't figured out how to make it cost-effective. Yes, there are a lot of good used aircraft, but pilots are flying less and saving their assets. In a good climate, flight schools and businesses at least would be flying their planes so much that they would need replacements and drive down the costs. This is not going to happen across the board.

[@johnypitman2368]

When figuring the cost to fly you have three major expenses. Maintenance, insurance and hanger. These add up to quite a lot. Often you need a airport car at your destination too.

[@Tharkunify]

It just too expensive. Light sport planes are jumping 10-20k each year with some now in the 300k range! A 1 hour burger run in a Cirrus can cost $450-500 if you rent. Insane.

[@TheCaioKyleBraga]

You forgot to mention a sub category in the GA world, the Light Sport segment. Nevertheless, you are correct on the stats. The upcoming change with MOSAIC rules might usher (hopefully) a new era in GA.

[@chrislovett6120]

What happened to GA, well a new pickup cost what e 172 used to so

[@ABQSentinel]

Facts!

[@arnaldoborghi2194]

I think it is... In 2019, I had cash saved to buy a LSA outright... Now What I have, it is not enough to buy 1/2 of the same LSA I was going to buy, the week I was closing the dial, this airplane jumped 20k in price, fast Foward 2022, I lost the price race... I gave up....

[@SteveandLizDonaldson]

To address some of the cost barriers, many years ago (70s?) the FAA created an ultralight category. The problem is, they then created a sport pilot category. All ultralight training had to be conducted in sport airplanes (no two-seat ultralights are permitted by regulation). Most ultralight instructors could not afford a sport class aircraft to use for teaching (even the sport class aircraft are very expensive). So I gave it up when I could not find an ultralight instructor (with aircraft) nearby (even using EAA resources). I had also contacted airports about hangar rental for an ultralight, and all said they were full with a multi-year waiting list, or never called me back (which I took to mean they did not want ultralights at their airport).

[@mzaite]

And with how they’re treating toy RC planes, the ultralight rules are on borrowed time. Once MOSAIC goes through, i expect 103 to be tossed asap.

[@dugandav1]

I would also add for the UK, the demise of the military/cutbacks in defence resulted in less awareness of flying through organisations such as the Air Cadets and Airshows coupled with the blarzey attitude towards the Flying Sector in general. Many of the older military airfields with runways have just be sold-off without any regards to the sink costs that have already been paid. Why was more entrepreneurial attitude NOT taken towards the maintenance of the estates and making them dual purpose thus keeping some of the infrastructure? There are far too many people who are too keen to spend/waste public money.

[@user-kc3op2oj2t]

One of the last factors mentioned in this excellent video is is that interest in general aviation flying has declined. So while the number of used airplanes on the market remains quite large, but the number of pilots/buyers is in decline, or static at best, prices of these planes continue to climb. It seems that the ironclad law of supply and demand that I was taught in my Macroeconomics class years ago does not apply in this market.

[@derektinsley9500]

General aviation is being forced out. Many years ago a Beechcraft twin was involved in a fatal accident. Beechcraft was sued for building a plane which was "not up to speed" although the plane in question had flown safely for 30 years. The plaintiff was awarded a very large sum of money and Beech focused on planes for the military after this.To me this seemed to be the beginning of the end for general aviation.

[@NICK-uy3nl]

Number of accidents and deaths of small private aircraft is also a huge factor in decline of general aviation, roughly 90% of all aviation fatalities are caused by private aircraft accidents, contributing factors can be lack of adequate maintenance, pilot training, bad weather and/or night accidents and failure to follow safety procedures.

[@Darren4352]

Let's not forget the lack of currency. Folks need to be able to practice a perishable skill regularly. That's why they're regulations about maintaining currency.

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

@@Darren4352 my home flight sim, with high end PC, VR, & peripherals, is better than what the FAA will certify for log-able hrs, yet to get my rig certified is so mind boggling difficult and expensive that no one bothers with trying. One way costs could be reduced would be allowing currency with home flight sim rigs with an easier means to self certify our home sims. We all know why they don’t do it. If anyone could suddenly log hours at home, demand for rentals goes down. Flight schools with sims wouldn’t be able to charge you insane rates to use their shitty log-able sims. There is zero interest from government, societies like AOPA or EAA, or GA industry to find ways to cut costs. Maybe to reduce accidents, we shouldn’t be flying 50 yo aircraft without modern safety features and avionics… yet those aircraft are so expensive they can sell only dozens a year.

[@jonascarlsson1290]

interestingly, general aviation is actually safer than it has ever been. But safety improvements in highway transportation and commercial aviation over the past half century have been nothing short of exceptional, making general aviation with its modest safety gains look comparatively dangerous, and something best avoided by an increasingly risk adverse population.

[@bryonslatten3147]

Not to mention many civil aviation fatalities result in massive settlement payouts to families. Thinking about Cessna's big payouts for dumb 210 pilots in the 70's and 80's.

[@cwr8618]

@@jonascarlsson1290interesting comment. Any immediate stats jump out?

[@Gofr5]

Got my CPL over 13 years ago, but was never able to find work as competition was too high and I had no real connections in the industry to help give me a helping hand to get my start. These days I get my fix by working for the airforce as an air navigator (though currently doing a ground job for a few years). I get my excitement and thrills and travel pleasure on my motorcycle instead these days. A mere scant fraction of the cost and just as thrilling and exciting. Would love to renew my license as a PPL and fly for fun, but that's just not happening.

[@brucecuratola6389]

The biggest obstacle is the federal government. Medical was botched, it took forever to get sign off for a check ride, now I cannot find anyone will to give me a check ride. Horrible!

[@dphillips4351]

@ 1979 I soloed at a Army airfield in Germany and was soon scheduled for my x/c flights. Received orders for Fort Lewis, Washington and sent my wife to college. I expected to resume flying when she received her B.S. degree but when I was alerted for deployment to Iraq they learned I had ITP a rare blood disease, this prompted the FAA to pull my student license. The sport pilots license came along and I thought it would be affordable to own a small plane,gyro, ultralight, Wrong! With fuel cost and instruction fees it’s just not feasible especially now that I am retired. Wishful thinking I suppose?

[@rickymccarty594]

Lets not even talk about the maintenance cost of overhauling or purchasing a new engine where the technology hasn't chaged in 40+ years....you would think with rather simple engines that have been around for decades it wouldnt cost more than a new car to overhaul or as much as luxury vehicle for a new engine that they recommend gets overhauled at 1800-2000 hours

[@user-xq5lr3sd7b]

I earned my private in 1985 and my instrument in 1990. I rented at first and then got into a partnership on a 1969 Cardinal. Now that was a nice plane, Sadly the partnership fell apart and I was able to buy a real nice one owner 1974 Cessna 172M. Now the Cardinal was a much nicer flying machine but I ended up owning the 172 for 28 1/2 years. And yes flying was much more affordable back then. I was lucky to fly the 172 on many long cross country trips. The only way I could afford this plane is that I obtained my A&P license and then my IA. Working on an maintaining the plane was great and it allowed me to keep and use it. Flew it around 3400 hrs. in my time owning it. Upon untiring in 2017 I decided that the fun of flying fissile d out and using the camper to travel was more fun. But I fulfilled a bucket list dream of flying my own plane all over the country.

[@markwilliams974]

I've been a GA pilot for 42 years. I own two Cessnas. I haven't flow for a year because I was paying $20-$30k per year for inspections and still had several incidents due to improper repairs. Wires left disconnected, elevators not aligned, back-up generator removed and not replaced, landing gear lock cocked up, total electrical failures, AC repaired 5 times and still doesn't work, and a Hobbs meter repaired 4 times that still doesn't work. The FAA doesn't enforce any AP codes so you are pretty much on your own.

[@scottfranco1962]

The right answer for an advanced aircraft is to buy an older plane and fix it up. The other answer is just to embrace the idea that your aircraft is just for sightseeing and does not need advanced avionics.

[@micclay]

Good job explaining everything. Nobody but multiple millionaires are buying a new certified airplane, even of the most basic types.

[@cecielhelder5923]

Nothing like a 1 million dollar SR22 to go grab a $100 hamburger.

[@TheGweedMan]

I learned to fly in 1978 in Mammoth Lakes, California, field elevation 7138. Total cost was less than $700 in a Cessna172 including the instructor. Purchased a used Piper Cherokee 180 with 4 other guys and flew that until I had enough hours to rent a more complex Cessna 182 with a constant speed prop. Flew to LA for business purposes mostly.There were no fax machines back then so documents had to be mailed or moved in person. Used some of my remaining GI Bill after collegeused most of it up to take some IFR training. Now I celebrate my birthday by renting an instructor and a plane for an hour just to sit in the left seat. Miss the days of affordable flying.

[@Bronson2024]

I remember renting a 152 for $11 per hour wet. You could pay $1 per hour more and get a plane with a second radio. What fun with a chart sitting in you lap switching between VOR's

[@user-zx2xx9oc4h]

I have been a pilot for 18 years and it's absolutely impossible for me to afford a flying club let alone buy an airplane even if it was an experimental. The fuel and repairs alone make it impossible. So as a professional pilot I drive. Smh

[@dondelchulia3189]

a new 172 is 500k, about 100-300k of that is governmental and liability costs. Then all the parts that’s go into them need certification driving the price higher. The engines are from the 1950s in the 172, and based off tech from the 1930s. There’s a pretty clear solution in all of this. Just look at experimental aviation. You can get a new plane today for the price of the average new car. Suddenly when you remove laws and lawyers things get a lot cheaper, and just as safe if not safer since you can use modern tech. Just funny how that works.

[@marblox9300]

This moving the goal posts farther away isn't just in Cessna 172s - it is with Houses, Cars, and just having a normal life.

[@SailingTeamTallyHo]

The main fuel crisis was 1973. My dad was a pilot and I learned about that time too. Was never able to afford it long term but I loved it when I did fly