Why Genre Still Matters (A Response to Polyphonic)

It's a dark day for the Ghost Notes fandom.
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So, a funny thing happened to me recently. I was watching the recent Polyphonic video about the death of genre, and suddenly, Noah called me out. By name! He challenged me to explain the academic perspective on genre, and I can't just say no to that sort of thing, so here I am stepping up and doing it. Musical genre's a really complicated thing, but it's also really important to how we understand and relate to the music we love, so let's dig in and try to figure it all out!
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[@scuttlefield]

Just realized that "Fight me, Polyphonic" has the same syllables as "Rock me, Amadeus", so now I have that song with new lyrics going through my head.

[@davidg5898]

...and your comment just got the parody of that song, "Jabba, on the Dais" stuck in my head. 😅

[@scuttlefield]

@@davidg5898 I was also thinking of "Dr Zaius, Dr Zaius" scene from the Planet of the Apes musical in The Simpsons. (Best parody musical... ever!)

[@soar_on]

they have similar rhymeschemes too, lol

[@davidg5898]

@@scuttlefield Starring Troy McClure, who you may remember from such films as... 🤣

[@timseguine2]

ₚₒₗᵧphonic ₚₒₗᵧᵖʰᵒⁿᶦᶜ, ₚₒₗᵧᵖʰᵒⁿᶦᶜ ₚₒₗᵧphonic ₚₒₗᵧᵖʰᵒⁿᶦᶜ, ₚₒₗᵧᵖʰᵒⁿᶦᶜ ₚₒₗᵧphonic ₚₒₗᵧᵖʰᵒⁿᶦᶜ, ₒₕ ₒₕ polyphonic come and fight me, polyphonic

[@nicosotheraccount]

"If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, is that a sick beat?"

[@that44rdv4rk]

a _stick_ beat.

[@Osric24]

​@@that44rdv4rk best reply

[@thepotatoportal69]

It might have been a sick tree

[@DavidLindes]

Yeah, 7:16... ❤‍🔥

[@BraydenPrice30]

"No!"

[@EmilyAllen-eo6xc]

The thing about "by definition, everything is music" is that it's kind of underscored by the running joke of "drone/ambient fan spends 15 minutes entranced by a new song they later discover is a piece of industrial machinery running in the background", which while very funny does actually happen sometimes in my experience, meaning that in a way music is defined by our capacity to enjoy it as music, and if you expand that capacity the scope of what can be considered expands with it. Like I have unironically sat down and enjoyed the sound of a generator running. it's like listening to birdsong, but for fans of underground metal.

[@bru4773]

Andrew Huang does a series where he gathers some music producers together to make original tracks or remixes all based on a single shared sample. The sample is usually a snippet of an existing song, but ro this day, my favorite episode of that series is the one where their sample was just a recording of a door closing. But the thing is, the reason that recording exists is because someone heard it and thought it sounded musical, and it does! And a lot of the tracks made from it keep or are inspired by that song the door was singing. Stuff like that is awesome, man.

[@D0Gdidthemath]

Have you ever listened to the album "Music For Living Sound" by Yann Tomita? listening to that album has genuinely redefined my concept for what music can be

[@AroundTheBlockAgain]

I genuinely love that washing machine that sounds like some Jumanji beat

[@iantaakalla8180]

Wasn’t a particular note progression from Hamilton from a squeaky door?

[@ThomasGilmore-fi6gb]

It's surprising and sad to realize how easily someone can be amused 😢

[@rowanbowers5743]

The reports of Genre's death were ... greatly exaggerated

[@TomBelknapRoc]

"I've been dead. It's quite liberating."

[@patrickbeer1830]

Pronounced "John-Ray"

[@CaedmonOS]

How could you, I just posted this quote and you beat me to it

[@MonkeyJedi99]

But what about Trans-Nutritional Green Death Country Rythm & Blues?

[@billepperson2662]

Love the intelligent discourse on the subject. One thing that I think is important to keep in mind is that genre labels, though arising from a simple human impulse to discuss & classify artistic nuance & idiosyncrasies, has largely been historically used as a tool of classist oppression (pre-recorded music), & later a method of advertising & commodifying recorded music as a tool of the recording industry, which exists largely to propagate & justify it's own existence. & I think we can all agree that it's best for art & those who make it to not normalize anything that mainly exists to commodify it... Right?

[@ferresmeets1937]

This feels like the start of a split in youtube music theory discourse akin to how literary academics started infighting in the 20th century to eventually create a bigger picture surrounding literature

[@ferresmeets1937]

"it's about the history!" "it's about the structure!" "It's about the artist!" "It's about the music itself!" "It's about the listener!" "It's about people!" "It's about society!" "Ok maybe it's about history again?!"

[@katiemutschler6040]

It is funny, because as a theorist I often talked with my literary Theory friends and explain to them that we are basically having the same conversation they had years ago. It makes me sad, but I'm also glad we're finally having these conversations

[@SM-qe4wd]

I dunno it's more a battle between people who don't want to read and dissect existing literature and those who do. The whole crux of the video hinges on how Polyphonic decided not to read and dissect the paper (and to respond to the general existing literature and opinion). You don't have to "be an academic" to read papers. Honestly not really sure why Polyphonic chose to engage with Fabbri in the first place if it's quickly sidelined. It bothers me because it's a form of willful ignorance that is common in other parts of modern life

[@GiveZeeAChance]

When I stopped viewing genre as a description of the musical mechanics at play and instead a marker of community, the lines made a lot more sense to me

[@farkasmactavish]

That's flatly ridiculous, though. The community is a result of the shared experience of the mechanics, not the cause.

[@themement3616]

​@@farkasmactavish and yet no community can actually concretely define what those mechanics are, so clearly there's more to it than that.

[@farkasmactavish]

@@themement3616 That's because they're not in the business of analyzing mysic from an academic perspective.

[@danielflanard8274]

​@@farkasmactavish Genres are a form of categorization used primarily by average people. They are informed by and defined by the masses. What academics think of them is not all that relevant because their understanding is not the recognized consensus.

[@farkasmactavish]

@@danielflanard8274 That's like saying that cultures are a categorization used by average people that are informed and decided by the masses. No. Genres are categories which can be studied and defined. Is there overlap sometimes? Sure! One of the few differences between heavy metal and classical is the instruments; the chord progression, time signatures, and other composition choices are incredibly similar, which is why it's so easy and common to create cover versions of songs from each genre into the other. But that doesn't mean "Genre is, like, made up, _maaaan!"_

[@spddiesel]

Beavis and Butthead perfectly defined metal back in the early 90's: "drums, guitars, and death! They finally got it right!"

[@Passage-atx]

What about sunn o)))

[@Ramonatho]

​@@Passage-atx sunn o))) is good but super pretentious

[@aoaoa605]

@@Passage-atx=)))))

[@JoeyPsych]

To me genre is a way to describe a song to somebody who hasn't heard the song before

[@Blockoumi]

I dont really agree cause if i told you “histoire sans paroles is a prog piece”, you wouldnt really get what it sounds like. Especially when genres get so specific that the average person doesnt know them I prefer using genres as a way to build a community of people with similar taste and most importantly, find new music. Once you get into the “greats” of a genre, you can find other important artists of that genre and other artists inspired by them and enjoy stuff

[@t3hjnz]

Holy shit, the NFT ape representing the idea of obsoleteness followed by "I'll get off my soapbox" was... beautiful. Art. Well played.

[@strifera]

I think this piece was missing a deeper discussion of genre as an artifact of the sharing/selling of music/musical performances. It was addressed tangentially, but genres act as a way for music to be marketed and for audiences to find what they are looking for, a sort of less rigid Dewey decimal system for media. Some genres are entirely created or maintained for that purpose. Plenty of "Christmas songs" have no mention of Christmas in them. "Kids' music" can be as varied as a genre can be and is defined purely by target audience. Absent the role of genres in creating and experiencing media, they will always fundamentally arise from and be reinforced by needing a way to discuss it. More lines might be drawn and the lines people care about might change, but the lines will always be there and be important.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

I want there to be a musical genre of UNeasy listening.

[@SO-ym3zs]

@@MonkeyJedi99 We need something that conveniently and casually lumps Peter Brötzmann, Einstürzende Neubauten, and Ligeti together :D

[@SO-ym3zs]

He does talk about genre being tied to marketing by the big labels over the last century, a practice supposedly dying out. The big labels may be on the ropes, but I don't see the notion of genre in any way fading. It's still used in its traditional sense to define, channel, or instigate music creation; to mark one's tastes and cultural allegiances; and to both market and seek out music that's similar to music X. It feels like he was just waiting to plug Nebula. Sponsored/affiliate videos are the bane of KZbin :(

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@SO-ym3zs I have zero idea who they are, but I support your enthusiasm!

[@-tera-3345]

@@MonkeyJedi99 You may not know him by name, but you've almost certainly heard music by Ligeti: one of his works is used as the "sound effect" that the obelisk makes in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[@klanggemaldemusic8723]

Ah, yes, the Fabri Paper. It played a big part in my master thesis. I applied it to Nu Metal to show how genres might influence each other. So, I strongly believe we need genre for context, to put a piece of music into relation to other ones and find out the nuance of compositional techniques in a piece of music. After all, no piece of music exists on its own, always in an environment with other pieces. To draw the lines of relationships through genre can help to see stylistic devices and how they develop. Again, Nu Metal is a great example of that. ... Thanks for the video to put the gerne discussion into perspective.

[@DC_Prox]

I haven't finished the video yet, but so far I suspect this has a lot to do with the divide between the ways people actually use language and the ways that some select academics would like language to be used, and then the academics forget that they don't dictate how language forms so they get confused and frustrated that the rest of the world isn't playing along.

[@AubriGryphon]

As with many, many things in life, genres are rigid boxes into which humans try to categorize unique items. Some items fit cleanly within the bounds of a single box, but some inevitably turn out fuzzier than the model is prepared to deal with, and that's a failing of the model, not of the item. Ask a planetary geologist how to identify a planet, asteroid, or moon. Ask a geneticist what a species is. Ask a sociologist about gender. You'll inevitably end up with some variation on, "Hoo boy... well, it's complicated." And so with genre.

[@maxalaintwo3578]

Gender isn’t complicated lmao

[@AubriGryphon]

@@maxalaintwo3578 Thanks for the uninformed opinion, lastname lotsofnumbers!

[@maxalaintwo3578]

@@AubriGryphon Being informed is exactly what led me to my conclusion, AubriGryphon lol. I don’t make the rules

[@chesspiece4257]

@@maxalaintwo3578as a sociology major, no. genders definition isn’t too complicated, but then you add gender identity, gender presentation, sex (also a social construct, but a story for another day), how gender varies by culture, etc, and it gets complicated pretty quickly

[@maxalaintwo3578]

@@chesspiece4257 yeah allat’s a made up concept from the 50s by dudes like John Money and Alfred Kinsey, who performed entirely unethical and unscientific experiments to thinly justify their fetishes. Look up John Money experiments when you have the time, and bring a vomit bag with you. The only reason it’s made complicated now it to accommodate for modern sexual deviancy without people feeling rightfully bad

[@davidg5898]

When I was in high school, we were arguing that genres are dying and music discussions often delved into micro-genres. When I went back to university, after a ~10 year break, I would chuckle to myself as I heard students at the coffee shops and on the quad arguing that genres are dying and hearing them discuss music in terms of micro-genres. Roughly 10 years later, I'm now watching this video response about whether genres are dying and how relevant micro-genres are. Long story short? Genres evolve, there's a lot of interaction between genres, and every generation thinks they're the ones that broke it all.* 😆 *Case in point, and exactly as you said approaching the end about new music being a re-envisioning of music people grew up with from their parents, "modern no-wave" is pretty much first wave industrial but with more defined rhythm and better production values. (Think mid/late 70s to mid 80s, with Throbbing Gristle as the archetype.)

[@Foodgeek]

Mosh pits at the symphony would be the bomb 😆

[@maxalaintwo3578]

The Rite of Spring was a trailblazer in more ways than one

[@Eloraurora]

​@@maxalaintwo3578 ...and now I want lumpy Fantasia dinosaur costumes in the mosh pit.

[@Vontroll]

I think a huge component of "the demise of genre" are people people like me who grew up with MTV (back when they played music). They played rock, pop, rap, R&B, prog, etc. There are quite a few from my generation who were into both Hip Hop and Metal which probably wouldn't have happened earlier (just look at the folk/rock rivalry in the 60's or the hatred of disco and rise of punk in the 70's). Heck, now that the male country artists have stopped trying to sound like Garth Brooks and have gotten creative again, even the country vs rock barrier is eroding.

[@alexgrunde6682]

Modern pop country pretty much is late nineties/early aughts top 40 post-grunge rock with a twangy accent. In some cases quite literally such as Darius Rucker and Aaron Lewis. Which I think is an oft overlooked aspect in the decline of rock, the demo that in previous generations would be the dudebro butt rock fans are now country fans.

[@Team_Orchid]

As a diehard video game music enjoyer, boss battle is a huge genre, JRPG forest is a specific genre, ice level is a pretty big genre, and I could go on. I might not know the proper names of these genres, but I can tell they're different genres.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I am a fan of JRPG battle music (which can be adjacent to prog rock because some of the prominent games pull from that), so yes video game music is music, has genres, and is comparable to better recognized genres.

[@StaticR]

to me genres have turned more into descriptive building blocks of musical practices, culture and sounds the piece may contain rather than a description of the musical experience as a whole. In a way genres are more similar to how tempo and time signature describe a song than a description of the song's identity as a whole. One can describe an entire song all the way through, but also they're free to change at any point. Genres are even more flexible as multiple can overlap at the exact same time without issue.

[@majortellandrus2552]

That's what genre has always been, it's also why it kills me when the anti-genre ppl go off on genres as some kind of gatekeeping/elitism tactic because that was literally never what genre has been.

[@StoryTeller796]

What would a genre put through A.I. devoid of all of the other building blocks look like?

[@felafnirelek8987]

@@StoryTeller796 Awful, that's what it would look like, regardless of which genre you choose

[@StoryTeller796]

@@felafnirelek8987 I do not doubt it one bit.

[@jhutt8002]

As an album-oriented rock guy, I've always seen genres more like family trees, where you can trace individual ideas in the songs/albums/artists style to those who came before, that create the genre.

[@elmerzcosta]

Two of my favourite music KZbinrs have a podcast together and no one told me? Shame upon you all and specially on me for not listening to it sooner

[@connerblank5069]

Genre isn't a structure or an object, it's a community. The purpose it serves is not a category for organizing music, but rather a frame of reference for the people who listen.

[@Afish8me2china]

I think what needs to die is the idea that one band has to stick to one sound forever. Ghost is a metal band (most of the time) but again, sings like Mary on a Cross are define toy pop rock.

[@Billiamwoods]

Not to start this convo, but I'd say Ghost are primarily a hard rock band. Songs like Cirice are pretty metal, but the overaching sound is hard rock. Like, their newer stuff has definitely moved away from even classic heavy metal (not that it isn't present at all). Though I also get why people think they're a metal band. Most metal guys tend to be very strict about what is and isn't, but I notice that most people (and I kind of agree) define something as metal if it like crosses a certain heaviness threshold.

[@Afish8me2china]

@@Billiamwoods in the spirit of full transparency, I don’t listen to ghost that often. I know a lot of their older stuff is metal but they’ve moved more towards classic/pop rock recently. My girlfriend loves ghost and claims they’re a metal band, she knows more then me about them, I trust her

[@patepulkkinenvtec2403]

​​@@BilliamwoodsTheir newest album has songs like Watcher In The Skies that couldn't sound any more old school heavy. Heck, Twenties is arguably the heaviest Ghost song of all. Most of the people who claim that Ghost "sold out" and "turned into a pop band" probably only ever have heard Square Hammer or He Is on the radio and excpect all of their newer songs to sound that way, which obviously isn't the case. I'm not saying you are necessarily one of these people, but those people definitely exist.

[@jameshall6399]

​@Billiamwoods I'd say the first 3 ghost records are definitely some form of metal, although not traditionally super heavy metal, but something more in the vein of Black Sabbath or Van Halen. They would've been considered metal in the 80s and I think that's what they are aiming for. All said Scooby-Doom is still the most apt term I think

[@patepulkkinenvtec2403]

@@jameshall6399 I dunno, Infestissumam is the least heavy Ghost album in my opinion. I don't think they have necessarily changed to less metal through the years like many claim, but some of that old grit has been eroded, which is understandable.

[@Afish8me2china]

The idea that genre is a culture is still there, it’s just more grouped together. I’m in high school, the alt kids or kids who would’ve been considered emo 15 or so years ago now are not defined by emo, but they also listen to a lot of punk, Nu metal, alt rock, etc.

[@joegrant413]

The very concept of controversy and civil disagreement is a good thing. I'm a fan of both you and Polyphonic, so I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

[@SM-qe4wd]

I feel like the controversy is actually around the willingness to read academic papers. If Polyphonic actually read the paper with the necessary effort (you don't need to "be an academic") then this disagreement would be a much lesser thing

[@martifingers]

Perhaps one sign of the power of genres is what happens when a piece flouts the genre's conventions. For example Iris DeMent's "Wasteland of the Free" has most of the elements of a Nashville country song (instrumentation, chord progression, emotional lyrical delivery etc.) - save for the radical social critique of the lyrics that left me (for one) pretty stunned on first hearing.

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

Genre is not about classification. It's about forms of expression, which we, as musicians and listeners, come to know and then build upon.

[@Londonjefsomething]

Back in NYC reference!!! NICE! (Jeff Buckley's posthumously released cover is so electric and haunting and perfectly cares for the ideas of the original)

[@Mischa1917]

11:20 man, props for the Machine Head riff 🤘

[@AroundTheBlockAgain]

Genre really is just a set of expectations. Expectations flow and drift. If you subvert expectations enough, your expectations will adapt. Expectations are equally useful for describing a song or band to someone who's unfamiliar, and to record labels and other corporations looking for an audience to market their product to. As someone who buys a plurality of their music from Bandcamp and grabs another portion from Soundcloud, I am extremely interested to see where expectations go in the future, as we drift farther and farther away from corporate record labels (while hopefully avoiding the death of variety induced by a flattening algorithm - equally scary).

[@teddygroben3372]

Sleep Token covering Hey Ya was when I actually listened to the lyrics and was surprised it was the same song as the upbeat track from OutKast

[@oranpf]

I joined a discussion on Reddit asking where/if slap bass can be found in punk music, and early RHCP came up...

[@randomgirl3po]

~6:00 on the intention of listening to a busker (or an equivalent such as a jukebox in a bar or loud car stereo driving by) i think it's possible that the intention on the listener's part to listen to something as music still plays a role in them experiencing it as such, and i think the case of a busker playing an instrument is an interesting illustration of different kinds of intention and, more broadly, different dispositions and operating assumptions which affect whether or not someone interprets something as music or not. when you get off your train and hear someone playing a violin, assuming you're familiar with the violin and the kinds of music people play on it, youre already primed to interpret whatever noises the player makes on it as music due to preconceptions; you dont have to think about it, you automatically interpret certain sound objects as music. i think there are also cases where a distinct lack of intention (to interpret a collection of sound objects as music) can be observed, such as a layperson listening to some kind of niche ambient noise piece and genuinely not realizing it's music and thusly not interpreting it as such and not having any of the experiences associated with listening to music such as listening for pitch, rhythm, harmony, etc and the changes in them. i can extend that metaphor to imagine that this layperson listening to harsh ambient noise music starts to hear variations in the textures and maybe hears some rhythmic beating or pulsing. they might very well make the connection and begin to interpret it as music, maybe theyve heard of noise music before but it isnt really at the front of their mind so it isnt their first thought upon hearing it. i think that music, existing as itself and only as itself (not as a representation of it such as notation or a physical disc) only in the moment to moment focus and attention of the listener, does require this sense of intention to be accurately called "music"; if a tree falls in a forest and no one's around it wiggles air, but it doesnt make a sound

[@-tera-3345]

Maybe not entirely the same point you were trying to get across, but I think a more simple way to describe it is: when I play music at max volume in my home, that's music, but when my neighbor does it on the other side of the wall, they're just disturbing the peace.

[@idonnow2]

Music-centered youtubers making friendly response videos between each other is my favorite genre

[@viewer-of-content]

"Sound organised by a sentient being or beings." Is probably my favorite way to describe or define music because it allows for the organisational conflict between performer and audience or audience members. Meaning the context of the listener or performer puts on the sounds is as important as the presence or absence of sound.

[@AFastidiousCuber]

What about 4'33 by John Cage? Also, what about music created by nature. For example, music from an aeolian harp.

[@cuckoobrain7999]

@@AFastidiousCuber I think the creation and placement of the aeolian harp counts as organising the sound because it's purposefully using the wind to cause it

[@AFastidiousCuber]

@@cuckoobrain7999 If waves crashing against a shore randomly produced a melody and you heard it, would it not be appropriate to say "The waves made music"? My point is just, I think who/what created the music is irrelevant.

[@NoConsequenc3]

@@AFastidiousCuber no, recording and presenting those crashing waves makes it music. The defining of the sounds is itself the process of creating the music. You've decorated time with sound, period. It matters not what you used to do so. Popular definition is just "music we, generally, value, we will call Music (big M)".

[@AFastidiousCuber]

@@NoConsequenc3 Aren't you basically agreeing with me by defining music in terms of the listener rather than its creator?

[@skelly1004]

My definition of music is “any form of sound which is either perceived as music or designed with the intention to be music.” So if something sounds musical to you, then it is music. If someone creates noise with the intention of it being music, it is music. It’s a bit extreme, but idk, I think it serves my brain well haha

[@tomjones1506]

To be that guy, what if (just for example) you were to drop dome cutlery by accident on two or more different surfaces, and you heard a melody produced by that. Would that still be musical because the melody occurred from an event that wasn't intentional? Like does the intention for music lay in the production or the reception? Like I say I'm just riffing a bit and I genuinely would like to know what you think, not trying start an argument cause :)

[@skelly1004]

@@tomjones1506 well I personally don’t think that music exists outside of the living beings that are able to perceive and create it. That’s why I put all of the power in the hands of humans, for if there was no being capable of applying meaning to noise, then the noise would have no meaning outside of it merely being a noise. Humans have the ability to categorize noise as music, and without that arbitrary categorization given to noise by intelligent beings, the sound is just a sound.

[@tomjones1506]

Indeed, I've always found it a little baffling when people say, for example, birds sing to each other; and of course to us they do - but do birds think they sing? I would argue no (cue silly mental images of birds actually saying "OI! OI... STEVE!!)

[@maxalaintwo3578]

That’s cyclical, and not a definition. That’s like saying “a bike is whatever I say is a bike,” which doesn’t really answer the question.

[@skelly1004]

@@maxalaintwo3578 definitions can be cyclical because definitions are social constructs. We make the rules for them, and if I decide that’s what music is to me, then that’s what music is to me. Music is much more than some sort of rigidly defined term, it is an entirely fluid experience that cannot be placed in a box, and trying to do so is limiting to the form.

[@TheNoladrummer]

Try rolling into a Metal concert playing as if Genre doesn’t matter and you’ll find out just how mistaken you are in a hurry…

[@hend0wski]

Ima be real with you as a 30 year old that's been in and out of bands, writing and recording, and living in the metal internet scene for 20 years I don't really think this is the case anymore unless you're literally my dad being weird about it. Like literally Tom Araya isn't even elitist about metal. Most of the time, metal elitism is shunned vehemently.

[@g3intel]

​@@hend0wskiThat depends on what space you're in, for sure. Testament concert? Nobody except the boomers cares. Finnish war metal show? Funny looks are the /nice/ outcome. Tech-death? Caring about the genres might get you a lecture from a turbo nerd if you get it wrong.

[@hend0wski]

@@g3intel no, wait this is actually too real stop I'm having ptsd of a dude with coke can glasses yelling at me through his headgear about why these specific sweep picks aren't actually math rock.. but foreal, yeah it's for sure an issue in places but on the whole I'd say being weird about metal elitism is on its way out of the culture for sure yaknow?

[@that44rdv4rk]

once you're old enough, it's all fusion.

[@TheNoladrummer]

Thank you all for proving my point better than I could!

[@jimbubbatube]

Biz Markie was one of the first rappers we all heard on popular radio. Our parents and teachers hated him singing out of tune, and that made us love him even more. It was a mild form of rebellion.

[@southofff]

Music is the sequence of sounds in order to decorate time with feelings

[@quentincorradi5646]

The definition given here of a genre reminds me of art movements. Then I went to the wikipedia article for art movement and got my confirmation. Genre = Art movement. So genre die as much as art movement do: They are temporal constructs; when no more people participate in them, they die. It's normal and fine.

[@poelogan]

all art forms are story telling when you distill them so i always just said music is simply sonic storytelling.

[@mateusbez2669]

This is Peak 12Tone. A video about music genres. 7 and a half minutes in, we are still stuck in the "what is MUSIC" part of it.

[@abigfavourentertainment]

I forgot how attached people are to genre in a weird way.

[@Packbat]

As someone who started making original music in 2019, this goes a long way towards explaining why it's hard for me to talk about the genres of the music I make. I am neither in a scene which defines itself by genre, nor being guided to marketability by a label who profits from being able to tell Borders which rack to put my CDs on, and that means that I have to reverse-engineer the unconscious musical inspirations I brought to the work to even guess.

[@marcduhamel-guitar1985]

Polyphonic lost me when he said Jazz is one of the oldest genres. Thanks for this excellent, informative video, 12 tone!🤟

[@sunsetsoverlavenderfields]

genre is most useful as a framework for organizing musical history. its fascinating how the importance between geography, demographic, and the exchange of musical ideas weaves everything together. most disagreements about genre i hear seem to come from people having differences in opinion on how important any of those aspects are - is detroit techno limited only to detroit? an artist in berlin making nearly the same sound was still making something labelled differently. the primary difference in queercore and hardcore at large is demographic and image, but it's an essential part of punk history. it's also weird in the modern day - a microgenre (like many branches of vaporwave) might just be a bunch of friends in a private discord server going after the same idea to start, but now physical geography and traditional demographics don't matter. imo truly caring about genre in a non-prescriptive way is just caring about history

[@brythkaltaris]

I think music is a collection of pitches used in a rhythmic pattern designed to express an idea or emotion. Before I explain genre, instrumentation is the collection of instruments used to create music. Genre is the style, and typically instrumentation, of which music is presented, usually defined by the idea or emotion being expressed

[@woodreauxwoodreaux6298]

I never agreed with the concept of genre being mutually exclusive boxes where a song may only exist in one. It's far easier and simpler to consider pieces of music as having characteristics or attributes; e.g.: Song[0] may embody A, B, C, Song[1] is X, Y, Z and Song[2] is A, Z. Genre is useful for physical record stores when they need to organize the products for customers. But for listeners, it's a less useful construct. Now that music can be accessed and acquired digitally, the need for discreet bins goes away, as a shopper can sort songs by attribute or tag. I don't want brick and mortar music stores to go extinct. So, I hope the concept of genre survives in support of those stores' survival. But I do believe the traditional thinking on genre unnecessarily constrains artists and can lead to mischaracterizations of works.

[@Blockoumi]

When i put on a jazz noir playlist to study, it’s cause ik what kind of music i want to play Genres are a great way to discover music, find communities and discuss the music you enjoy with others Go to a general online music forum and try talking about your favourite albums, especially when you listen to lesser popular genres It can get hard/tiresome

[@TripleBarrel06]

Come on man, if tree falls in the woods and no one's there to hear it, it's a sick drop, not a sick beat.

[@robhogg68]

"Jazz people hate it when you call something jazzy"... a question that has exercised me for a while is, when and why did jazz stop being fun? If you look at Jazz back in the 30s and 40s, say in a film like Stormy Weather, you have serious musicians like Fats Waller and Cab Calloway, but they don't take themselves so seriously, there's a joy to it that often seems lacking these days.

[@spawnofmelkor]

In the early part of this video with the question of whether Mumford and Sons was metal, I was fully expecting commentary around the first metal Grammy being awarded to Jethro Tull.

[@Tailsmillion]

7:35 “Music can be whatever I want”

[@Qmwnenrbtv]

I think its best to think of genre as a venn diagram. Its always been that way, and people have always been putting them together, obviously, as there are so many fusion genres. Id even argue fusion is the main cause of new genres forming. Its just that recently, people have been fusing genres so often that alot of music is a very open feild with much less fences up to keep genres separate than there were before. When the divide is so hatd to find, it can be easy to say that concept of a genre is gone, but instead it is still there, but has become a spectrum. The reason this has happened is because metal is pushing heavier and heavier over the years, thats what it does. In response, hard rock got softer in general and combined with digital production was leaning closer to pop music than ever before. This also made a gap in between of things that aren't quite either, eg ghost. So this whole thing is pushing genres closer together and creating grey areas over the years, and especially with digital production, bands started experimenting over it and now in the modern day the lines that seperate genres are so blurred that they become near impossible to see sometimes, but just because they arent as easy to categorize doesn't mean the genres aren't there. Damn thats my nights worth of waffling done right there dont know why i wrote a 10 paragraph essay there but there it is.

[@aylbdrmadison1051]

To say genre's are dying because they're mixed together is to not understand where genre's come from.

[@jasoncox7244]

I love this discussion on a deep, visceral level that I don't know adequately describe. I think the same argument exists in even the broader "art" community [Citation Needed]. .... like... the reference to `Music for Airports` (and the humanist implications of the fact that this very ... niche?... thing not only does this exist, but it is something /we/ are talking about nearly half a century after it was written) is exactly the thing...

[@deadbushinc.5105]

The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway mentioned! hype!!

[@xato3796]

My definition of music that I find fits without being vague or circular is : The emergent auditory component of human culture.

[@jell0goeswiggle]

On the idea of defining music: how important is sound, really? I can't imagine that the deaf experience of music... isn't. I remember hearing Eastman's _The Holy Presence of Joan of Arc_ (a ~20m piece for like 10? 11?-entirely too many-cellos). It stopped me in my tracks and had me questioning "what is music?". In retrospect, it was more of "do I enjoy this?", but it was such a fascinating experience for me that I love to share it. I've never heard a piece of "traditional" music I'd describe as"challenging" before. -- It's hard to pick a favorite doodle today. Mr. Peabody was a throw (way) back. I laughed out loud at the ape. Spacechem had me double take, but I'm pretty sure I've seen you use it at least once before. AIM wins the biggest nostalgia hit (and makes me feel old; thanks).

[@kelechi_77]

I feel in the future this world of microgenres will be used by A.I to help people find incredibly specific kinds of music, like if you are looking for music from the 1980s that was recorded on cassette and sounds so lo-fi it was coming from the other room, with some jazz and punk influence... etc. It would then show you an exact glossary of that sound. Not sure if that's a bad or a good thing, but for a music nerd like me that feels like it would be such a useful thing to find obscure and specific sounds of music from any era.

[@DotsAndLinesMusic]

The genres I make are more based around topic and community than sound (wizard rock, which is not actually all rock, and filk, which is not all a variation on folk), so I appreciate acknowledging those can be factors in what makes a genre. A playlist in either of those genres may sound like it's all over the place in terms of more common genre labels, but it's still all one genre, just one that relies on different connections. Having a genre label helps in finding those connections, and the diverse sounds are just part of the fun.

[@djuengst2000]

I really hate genre definitions in general but I liked your vid. I get it. I grew up as a punk rock kid so now pop-punk as a definition really rubs me wrong. I wish my old friend Steve could watch this one. He was a philosophy master and contemplated existence. Unfortunately, he’s no longer with us. He was an excellent drummer.😊

[@zaniq23]

Not being concerned with Genre is like going into a grocery story that is not concerned with categories because food is food.

[@cyrilroger1405]

Definitions? For what it’s worth, if ever sharing it helps in any way, I’d like to go like this: Music : sounds organized, with any degree of intentionality, for the sake of the listening and/or performing experience. Then by extension: the art of / activity consisting of organizing or producing such sounds. Musical genre: a set of social behaviors involving, but not limited to, musical activity. Thoughts ?

[@Blockoumi]

I wonder if it’s possible to intentionally organize sounds to make a “sound piece”/“sound experience” without considering it music. In the sense the artist doesn’t consider it to be music and rather an experiment Or poetry that emphasizes the sonical aspects (like the reading of it)

[@AxeMan808]

RICHARD SCARRY!! I finally realized who your art reminds me of!!!

[@SubV13]

"No moshpit at the symphony" - great band name

[@angelahull9064]

Or a challenge! Mozart's "Impresario" is a banger

[@OlhodeSauron]

About K-pop, it's interesting that the real limitation of the genre "K-pop" nowdays is basic if the band is a pop band that is comerciallized in the south korean media; 'cause we have some band who sings only in english, some formations have multiplies nationalities representation, like Blackswan, etc.

[@Captain.Mystic]

Using the crowned strawberry as shorthand for a challenge shows your good taste but makes me wonder how many people actually understand the reference. After the video: And now the knowledge of where the banjo actually comes from makes that one fairly oddparents joke suddenly have implications that line up with Butch Hartman's recent developments... scarily well.

[@SheepUndefined]

10:20 "If you're not familiar with modern no-wave, that was probably a little overwhelming" *Me who's listened to so much 100 Gecs and Fraxiom that it just sounded like normal music:* Huh?

[@Tryingtogetradical]

Genre isn’t dying, it’s just splintering and recombining. With music itself becoming more accessible people are influenced by more and more which means they’re experimenting more with sound

[@thomastrangmoe5878]

oh god yes we’re at the “peer review infighting” phase of music KZbin essays

[@NoConsequenc3]

Everything sound is music. Not everything is considered valuable enough to be described as Music. That's it, really. If you value decorated time then you can talk about it as if it is important. If you do not, you cannot. You can like guardrails, but that's just... drawing arbitrary lines in the sand for what YOU personally value. The point is that you value, period: Negative or positive is irrelevant. You cannot discuss something with no value by it's very nature. If I stop, and I listen, what I hear from that initial moment to when I stop, that is music, in total and complete. When I stop a song in the middle, the music is complete. When I die, that is the end of the song of my life, nothing more and nothing less, and to an audience that cannot comprehend it in it's entirety.

[@NoConsequenc3]

You cannot prescriptively describe music because you cannot prescriptively describe phenomenological human experience. You can only describe people listening to shit.

[@bassplayer2011ify]

I don't think Genere is necessarily dying in how we define music. But it is dying in what its original purpose was. Which was an archaic and loose system of rules to sort albums for store shelves.

[@PsychicGealt]

Could you someday do a video on Radioheads Street Spirit, Husker Dü's hardly getting over it, or similarly depressive songs? Take a picture by Filter would also be goated.

[@Snoozelightable]

Music is a form of communication, there is something trying to be said it given, even its as simple as trying to communicate an idea of atmosphere. It, like words, holds something more, and you use this “material” thing, vibrations, to house something more. Music delivers something in a certain way, just as words do, and you can’t call something music of it doesn’t communicate like that. Music is meant to do what words cannot, as words are too strict, and all rooted in the things we interact with physically, mostly. Music takes something else, and is rooted in the subtle experience, and is used to communicate that.

[@Strykenine]

I am really glad you covered this or it would have just been a Friday for me.

[@rodnattrass7021]

Wow! That was one hell of a video. Masterclass.

[@dw7704]

The best definition I have heard for music was in a Music Exploration course ( looking at the history, primarily of European music, with references and comparisons with other music) The definition was designed to include music that doesn’t sound like music to everybody: Music is a series of sounds and silences intended to be music. ( I believe you can include bird and whale song in that definition)

[@UrbanGarden-rf5op]

i've already made my point of view clear at Polyphonic's video. But I feel the need to emphasise: Nebula rules ✌✌

[@d.storelli]

Some thoughts on the definition of music, I can't say that I agree that music is "nothing until it is experienced." To use the tree falling in a forest example, lets say you set up a speaker in the woods and play a song from a remote location. That music still exists in that place and time from the movement of air created by the speaker even though no one is there to experience it. Music and sound are actually physical phenomena, and to say that they are entirely experiential is not correct, IMHO. I don't have a better definition and I thoroughy enjoyed this discussion, just thought I'd add my 2c.

[@riccardocravero3614]

Juridical rules are usually intended as norms sanctioning the legitimacy and legal recognition of a genre. If you attend a music academy and get a degree there, this makes you legally eligible for some jobs (playing in an orchestra, conducting, teaching music), while most folk, blues and rock musicians are not necessarily trained in formal settings and so they are not legally recognized (you don't get to teach at Juilliard just because you play guitar at the local pub)

[@BahamutBreaker]

Genre matters. Blending previously established genres is okay. Staying inside the guardrails of previously established genres is okay, too. Neither of these truths deletes the nature or importance of genres. Now, don’t get me wrong - some ultra-specific ultra-niche contrived genre names are indeed superfluous. Still, generally speaking, basic musical genres are important for speaking about songs intelligently - NOT to invite petty spats about which genre is “better” - but rather so we can communicate about songs. As an analogy, the advent of SUV and “crossover” vehicles does not erase the importance of defining a “car” versus a “truck”.

[@ChasMusic]

"To me, music is anything people experience as musical." ¡Yes! I often (although not always) experience the sound of a washer or dryer or the train going through the BART tubes between San Francisco and Oakland as music.

[@MRichK]

Tom Waits: Songs, uh, are really just interesting things to be doing with the air.

[@stephenbenner4353]

By any objective definition,The Backstreet Boys performed music, but when I was in my teens and early twenties, there was a large number of people myself included that claimed that boy bands weren’t real music. Now thirty years have gone by and I don’t have to seem cool to a bunch of other kids my age, I think “I Want it That Way” is an important classic. So I guess the definition of music changes across time, and while “I Want it That Way” doesn’t rock, it is a great song.

[@dustykh]

Now I want to see people making mosh pits at Carnegie Hall.

[@s-idney]

Things are heating up in the music video essay analysis fandom

[@briancoyne8815]

14:30 Every time I step into an elevator and hear the music, I think “Man, that’s phat!”

[@some-maggot]

1:33 wait hold the hecking phone is it a golden strawberry i now need to know if you have more than me can we get a sick montage of 12tone collecting strawberries

[@ChainsawCoffee]

Listening to Ghost Notes, many times it pops up that genre equals culture. Thus, with those being equal, the death of genre means that culture is also dead. Which could be correct, but it isn't. Shared connections define a group. A group creates a culture. Various genres of a something can exist within a single group. I regard genre and culture as being a set of Venn diagrams, sometimes overlapping, sometimes not. But for genre to be dead, culture must be dead, and so also, all people must be dead. Just because something doesn't fit into whatever defined and approved set of holes exist, or fits into a large set of holes, doesn't mean that either genre or culture are dead. We are people, and we are free to create.

[@blueberryseason]

I think genre is also determined by where the music is performed, who the band is in relation to other bands and their intermeshing audiences. The concept is both general and specific.This is why listening in to different musical scenes in a historical fashion can be a better indicator of style whereas genre tends to be more of a mish-mash catch-all term. I think it is more a product of place and time as well who collaborated with who during the period of time that the artist was active.

[@Blockoumi]

The thing with genres is that there are generally three different aspects You have the community based ones where it’s less defined by sound and moreso by its history and its community. Like the canterbury scene for example. It’s just straight up prog. It’s considered its own genre but if you played a song, i couldnt tell you it originated from canterbury There are genres based on an idea. Like avant-garde or progressive or whatever. You dont need a specific sound to be avant garde or progressive. Why it could range from goliath by the mars volta to histoire sans parole by harmonium And the most known one is genre based on music/sound/themes. Like conventions or whatnot. Odd meters, swing, specific instruments etc Im probably missing others

[@Jafezy_JD]

I haven't seen a beef like since John Lennon Vs the English teachers

[@revoerobinson]

Ugh! Banjos are typical in Bluegrass, not country! 😂 Now you know the circles I run in! Good video! 👍🏼

[@DavidLindes]

7:16 - sick -beat- joke, bro. 🤣

[@Chris_Adams1]

In talking about the definition of music… John Cage ‘s 4’ 33”.

[@Osric24]

12tones' discussion of the history of country as largely formed by segregation makes me laugh even harder at those people who were mad Beyoncé made a country album. Also very glad you acknowledge how economics and industry affect media and genre.

[@klb2164]

wait omg the golden berry for "challenge" is great

[@kumoyuki]

So I just spent a delightful evening doing some synthesizer sound design in order to use the sound of NASCAR engines as a musical instrument ;) Just thought you might like to know. Wow. Yes, John Cage *is* my composition Guru, why do you ask?

[@entmeister]

Thank you!

[@casualsilver2702]

I don't think the record companies are dying but are instead going through a period of transition as technology develops.

[@ZyNgInaMo]

Please do understanding Don’t stop believing

[@mattmadolah]

DEMS FIGHTING WORDS! This is the music Beef I'm Here for !

[@kimberlycarrigan8824]

There are many kpop idols who aren't korean. They have Americans, Australians, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, etc.