Why God Gives Us Free Will | Kevin-NY | Talk Heathen 05.30

Talk Heathen 05.30 for July 25, 2021 with Kenneth Leonard and Jmike.
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WHAT IS TALK HEATHEN?
Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
Talk Heathen is filmed in front of a live studio audience every week at the Freethought Library of the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
CONTACTS & SOCIAL MEDIA
Facebook.com/groups/talkheathenfg
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NOTES
The views and opinions expressed by hosts, guests, or callers are their own and not necessarily representative of the Atheist Community of Austin.
Opening Theme:
Ethan Meixsell "Takeoff"
/ talkheathen is the official channel of Talk Heathen. "Talk Heathen" is a trademark of the ACA.
Copyright © 2017 Atheist Community of Austin. All rights reserved.

[@adamrspears1981]

"Worship me, or I will banish you forever to suffer & be tortured to this place I created called Hell" -Sounds more like an ultimatum than a choice or free will.

[@jestermoon]

Take A Moment I just laugh and walk away laughing out loud Great fun Stay Safe Keep your vital work going please Stay Safe Stay Free 🌐

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

Kevin's whole epistemology seems to be: "Because book says a thing" He goes looking for whatever text he can find that agrees with him, and then just points to it.

[@stevenboelke6661]

Wow Kenneth, I haven't heard of this "What do you think of first?" thought experiment before. It shows how determinism excludes free will in an extremely simple way. I first came to realize that free will wasn't real because of causality, and it's been a bit hard to communicate to others.

[@paulnejtek6588]

Sam Harris does this 1 a bunch.

[@1harperaj]

If a deity gave “freewill” then why do some parents indoctrinate their children in the religion of the parent’s belief rather than letting the child have “freewill” This to me is a form of child abuse!

[@adamtzsch]

Freewill isn’t a word.

[@flipwright1138]

@@adamtzsch Used as one word, “freewill” usually means voluntary: a “freewill contribution”, as opposed to a fee or a tax. Used as two words, “free will” has multiple, often contradictory definitions. The compatibilist definition is that a decision is made using your free will if it is made without coercion.

[@adamtzsch]

@@flipwright1138 I don’t know what makes you think I don’t know what “free will” means. “Freewill”, it appears, is just another Americanization of the English adjectival phrase, but it’s still used incorrectly by the OP because freewill isn’t a thing.

[@flipwright1138]

@@adamtzsch I was pointing out that "freewill" is a word.

[@adamtzsch]

@@flipwright1138 And then you explained to this philosophy graduate what the *two* words “free will” mean. Or tried to.

[@Locust13]

Jmike is to talk Heathen what Matt is to The Athiest Experience. They elevate it to a point that it's hard to watch when they aren't on

[@mephistophelesthesilentchi3446]

You'd think an all knowing/powerful god could convince its own creations to live according to its teachings without violating their sense of autonomy. But it can't. So instead it tortures them eternally, for living as it planned them to live, and somehow that's supposed to portray it as admirable. Fortunately for the universe, such a maximally inept and malevolent creature as god, is a blatant work of shoddy, antiquated fiction.

[@justincredible.]

Our lifes start with the biggest lack of free will, being born (and where and to whom we were born).

[@elainejohnson6955]

Loved it when JMike asked if he chose his parents or his genes.

[@chrisb9740]

But if God knows everything that's going to happen then he knows everything we are going to do. Therefore we we are simply doing whatever he has planned. How can that be freewill?

[@drg8687]

If some cosmic entity bestows free will upon you then how do you have free will? It was given to you and can be taken back.

[@colinsixhitter3303]

If we had free will advertising would not work. It does. Explain.

[@drg8687]

@@colinsixhitter3303 Your are confusing concepts. Freedom of choice and free will are not the same thing.

[@colinsixhitter3303]

@@drg8687 What is the difference?

[@drg8687]

@@colinsixhitter3303 The freedom to select one's will versus the freedom to enact one's will.

[@colinsixhitter3303]

@@drg8687 I really do not see the difference. That to me is the same as freedom to choose and freedom to act on the choice. Both exactly the same.

[@jestermoon]

Go go go, it's your choice Leave or not. I have a choice. Stay Safe Get Free Stay Free

[@matthewchang5701]

Hmm very interesting topic

[@keyboardoracle1044]

Clear your mind! if you can’t you don’t have free will.

[@damionomen7490]

So why give us freewill and then punish us for using it? "I the lord of all creation have created mankind with the will to choose his own beliefs but they'd better not believe or do anything that I don't agree with or I'll burn the motherfuckers for EVER!!!". "Also I am love".

[@tracer740]

Aha! That's how it's got to be ... or else! What an interesting 'god'!

[@lilmsgs]

The same experiment works for cars, cities, food etc, of course.

[@java97]

Is there freewill to those in heaven? If yes, can people in heaven sin ? If no, why did God give that faculty to earthly humans ? If there is freewill in heaven, but they can't sin with that freewill, why didn't God give the same kind of freewill to earthly humans?

[@Boris99999]

Does “free will” even exist? To answer that question we first have to answer another question: “what even is free will?” Much like with the term “soul” it all collapses as soon as you try giving it a concrete definition!

[@richardmooney383]

I am an atheist, but I believe that I have free will because it feels to me that I have it and because I know that I am going to be judged by others as though I had it. My intellect tells me that I can't have it, but intellectual conclusions are not beliefs. Whatever the truth of the matter, if truth means anything in this context, I do not see how I can have any choice in what I believe. But I feel as if I do, and there's nothing I can do about that.

[@YeOldeSpellbooke]

This was great! Kenneth rocks again :) Imo, free will is an illusion of the sum of ones experience, and when put out side what you know one usually act irrational.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

darn it, crushing so hard on JMIKE aaaahhhhh ^.^

[@locutusdborg126]

Go for it. I think he is single.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@locutusdborg126 I don't think he'd want me :P He seems too cool/chill and stuff, I'm kinda high-maintenance lol I mean, I'd so date him and see what happens either way, but I don't like disapointing and frustrating people ya know? Still, I wonder what he does like, seems kinda metal, so maybe that? haha

[@ksteed1167]

Same.

[@jrwatson4265]

He quoted that god said if God did not give mankind freewill, man would say you did not give me joy. So (Freewill) the man who rapes has joy, but the victim who is raped does not have joy. The slave master has joy, but the slave does not. The people who steals the land have joy, but the people who had their land stolen from them does not have joy. The people who commit genocide have joy but the people who are the victims of genocide does not have joy.

[@ajniecithya5849]

Sam Harris wrote an intersting book on that topic.

[@LuminesBreezer--]

If you're god fearing, then you don't have free will. Simple.

[@hunterv9983]

As the farmer said in regards to Alexander, "If he is a good king, why should I fear him?".

[@verdatum]

I'm surprised I'm not seeing this at least in the comments I read, but, JMike was massively speaking over Kevin in this one. Agreed upon terminology in philosophy is tremendously useful when both parties have the same lexicon, but, even if you provide the definitions of your terms to someone not versed in those terms, You can really only pick like one or two terms over such a short time span, and then teach them to the person as an educator, otherwise, they will be forgotten in moments. Or maybe JMike just gave up and started talking to the listeners instead of the caller, in which case, it would've been nice to preface with that...

[@Steveman27]

If humans are given freewill like the angels and demons have, then shouldn't humans also have the same powers and abilities that they have, which would include being able to come and go from Heaven or Hell as they please, since that's when angels and demons have done?

[@suburban-vampire]

Why is is that gods are precisely as smart as the people writing or talking about them? 🤔

[@tTtt-ho3tq]

I used to think that we have free will because God wants true love from us. He didn't want to make it automatic, we automatically love him unconditionally without any doubts, any questions. He wanted us to think for ourselves to either accept him and love him ... or not. True love. That's what I thought. Or maybe somebody told me do. Anyhow it made sense. Now, we're not perfect so even we accept him and love him we could still sin again, right? But everybody can be saved. We repent our sins and accept him. Right? Here's the thing. What will happen after we're in the heaven? If we still have our free will. Then we could possibly sin again in the heaven? Some of angels fell out (sins?) of the heaven, right? But the final judgements are done and over already. So what would happen if we free will to sin in the heaven? We won't? If there's no free will, then what happens to true love for God? If we have free will and wed love him no matter what ... why didn't he made this world that way from the beginning? Why then the tree of knowledge for? We have free will and always do the right thing in the heaven? Because the heaven is a perfect place? Perfect love? Is he ok with that? How does it work?

[@tomjackson7755]

You are starting to figure out that there is all kinds of contradictions in the bible.

[@tTtt-ho3tq]

@@tomjackson7755 Yeah, and the Torah and the Qur'an. I've heard in the Qur'an, there's no fallen angels but demons were created before Adam & Eve. Why did he create demons for? Tree of knowledge in the Qur'an? And why did he plant the tree of knowledge for?

[@PBAmygdala2021]

@@tTtt-ho3tq thrilled to see so many great, honest questions in the comments. Keep up the good work! I'm also the type to ask lots of questions. Over the years, I've learned how to efficiently and pragmatically investigate them myself. And I've come to understand that its okay to come to the conclusion of simply "I don't know". It's not a weakness to admit it, it's humility and honesty that's provable, and that's a good thing. In your continued learning, I recommend reading the basics of philosophy, especially logic and reason. Learn about how we investigate and reach conclusions that are justified based on evidence. Learn about cognitive bias. Huge help! And learn about the brain. Watch videos by Dr. Robert Sapolski to understand how and why we react the way we do. There's so much great knowledge out there online, for free. Happy learning!

[@justincredible.]

Free will > Divine plan...???!

[@vinnymarchegiano]

Imagine Kevin's voice in a romantic relationship? Kevin is evidence no gods exist.

[@johnd.shultz7423]

its the languid, deeply bored voice of the 3rd bong hit wearing off....

[@afroatheist-isnowafroantit6154]

🥴🥴

[@paulnejtek6588]

@@johnd.shultz7423 I choose not to think about things like that. I concentrate on positive, godly, uplifting thoughts like a nice, fresh hit.

[@aestroai8012]

I'm a Christian and I'm amazed by how the Christians I'm surrounded by believe in free will. (I was an Atheist for 25 years, and I'm still more of a skeptic than a Bible thumper) The Bible seems to be clearly deterministic, and I feel like Christians just invented free will as a means to pressure people into blind faith! On the subject of free will I don't even know why I'm drawn to theology. Why am I left handed? Why am I American? There are infinite facts that render an existence.

[@tommystyx]

God gave man free will so that he could send sinners to hell. If we had no free will there would be no sin and Satan would get lonely.

[@gregsanich5183]

Argueing with anybody about this is pointless bc nobody has any choice what they are determined to believe in. The caller didnt have a choice to not believe ìn free will, it was predetermined, so its not his fault.

[@williezar2231]

Freewill isn't free is we have to pay a price for our actions or thoughts. It would be better named, 'Costly will'. Or, 'Play now, pay with fire later'.

[@phillipseifert694]

Keven sounds like a robot and thinks like one too

[@crispyblack8779]

I’m gonna need this guy to start a KZbin channel, where all he does is read instruction manuals and boring books in that same monotone. I would never have to watch another pimple popping or RV video to get to sleep, ever again! Reminds me of FBDO: Beuller? Beuller? Beuller?

[@lisaratley4858]

RV video???

[@crispyblack8779]

@@lisaratley4858 oh, yeah. Minds eye design. They tour all kinds of stuff. it’s a countdown, and it’s very soothing.

[@lisaratley4858]

@@crispyblack8779 is it like the rug washing, ear cleaning, and tapping and scratching videos that are exquisitely delicious and make me feel the scalp and spine tingles?

[@MrInfinityJinx]

To be fair consciousness is so poorly understood I don't think anyone can be so certain as to whether free will is a thing or not.

[@locutusdborg126]

I think it is becoming well understood, at least how it works. The problem with all theist arguments is that they were developed 1500 years ago roughly, before the scientific method, and before we developed an understanding of the physical world and neuroscience. Unless you are indoctrinated into a religion, you will clearly see how primitive these arguments are.

[@ChristianaMaru3]

this thought experiment does not disprove free will. If anothers will could not impede on my will, it would not actually be free will. Thinking of "jay z" might be a result of the atmosphere around us that we cannot control, but thats an example of the free will of others competing with our own free will. If I were to choose to listen to more kanye west, my own free will choices would more likely cause me to think of kanye west first. Our will is free, but that doesn't mean that the atmosphere around us will allow our choices to have the outcomes that we wish they would have. Not being able to choose our genes doesn't take away from the fact that we have the freedom of choice to do what we will with what we were given. there are different types of "free will" theories and just because you or I can't understand the concept, doesn't make it untrue. different examples of free will are Compatibilism, Hard Determinism, and Hard Incompatibilism. there's definitely a conversation to be had, but I think your argument here was weak. So was the callers though, I was really wishing he would bring up the fact that his will could very well change his future response to this thought experiment.

[@Locust13]

You are just kicking the can down the road, sure you could listen to one artist over another, but is it your choice which artist you like more?

[@ChristianaMaru3]

@@Locust13 the things that we enjoy are a manifestation of our minds, making it our will to listen to Jay z instead of Kanye. Free will is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior, Choosing between eating and living or starving and dying is still free will even though we can’t choose to starve but still live. Our free will is competing with others free will and predetermined atmospheric environment. Flying is not a choice we have. We have a choice between walking and sitting. We can’t choose from options we don’t have. Our free will comes from the freedom to choose from a list of choices available to us.

[@namethis658]

I agree, the conversation here could have been better from both sides

[@justincredible.]

Explain taste (music, movies, food...), in free will context.

[@jgone4856]

If free will means I can choose A over B or B over A at any given moment then doesn't it fail immediately in the Christian worldview?

[@breadlowry]

Whats JZ doing in here?

[@richardmooney383]

If there is no free will, and I'm not claiming that there is or isn't, what is the point of this channel?

[@BuckyKattGetFuzzy]

Kevin sounds a lot like jrobin.

[@mynamemylastname1835]

So do I have the free will to choose not to have a free will?

[@tTtt-ho3tq]

What do you mean? Do I have my free will not to have my left arm? Is that it? You could cut it off. Do I have my free will not have my head? It sounds like you're equating free will to omnipotent. You could do or realize whatever your free will wishes no matter what? Then ... can I free will to win a gold in the Olympics? So are others? Can I free will to crate something so heavy I can't free will to lift it?

[@mynamemylastname1835]

@@tTtt-ho3tq Ok,for the sake of the argument let's say the Chrisitan god is real and I decided that my doubts may get me a ticket to hell. Thinking about this I decided that free will is dangerous for me. No matter how much I try, I cannot stop my free will. So I choose not to have free will (That's my will) but no matter how hard I try, I still have free will. Let's put it another way, A man said he'll torture me if I don't "truley" believe in Santa. No no matter how much I try, I can't believe that Santa is real. Now in this case did I have free will?

[@tTtt-ho3tq]

@@mynamemylastname1835 You have free will to lie to Santa you believe him. Did you choose you don't believe Santa? My sticking point is, no free will = no choice.

[@mynamemylastname1835]

@@tTtt-ho3tq I have no choice in the belief of Santa no choice = no free will.

[@tTtt-ho3tq]

@@mynamemylastname1835 Didn't you see about Santa and didn't you decide to not believe him? If you see enough convincing evidence for Santa would you change it? (not likely though). Or you still can't change it? Is it scientific? Or objective?

[@winstonstableford7196]

But can you make the argument that the choice is constrained?

[@ampleoloruntogbe1434]

The fact that you were GIVEN free will means u don’t even have free will cos it was given to u nd can be taken back.

[@jeremyp3116]

I would say there is no joy either way. You don’t really have a choice if disobeying god means eternal damnation

[@cosmikrelic4815]

ah, the old christopher hitchens trick.

[@grandvianna8551]

It's like Kevin never listens...ever.

[@MacLaw3084]

eh, this wasn’t you guy’s best take. Kenneth’s “thought experiment” was not very strong or persuasive. the caller could’ve just said that free will exists but its not used all the time (his subconscious “chose” jay-z). should’ve gotten the callers definition of free will and allowed him to speak a bit more.

[@brent8183]

Great thought experiment, but I'm a bit confused how or why race was injected into it. I probably would have gone Jmike's route of cities or something. That was just a liiiiittle awkward lol.

[@grimm2626]

He didn’t have an option but to inject race into the question.

[@NeverTalkToCops1]

Free will is a trap phrase used by theists to start a bogus discussion. Don't let them go there, stick with the basic questions.

[@hank_says_things]

Once again I suggest very strongly that Kevin take a coupla weeks off and read some comics or something. It sounds like he’s spending every waking moment trying to convince *himself* this Hebrew fanfic is true.

[@HardKore5250]

Gene editing and Transhumanism gives us free will. Maybe we have a duality.

[@LOwens-xf8yo]

One might say that god gave us just enough rope to hang ourselves. As a parent, I chose the punishments for my children. The biblical God’s punishments are too extreme! Worldwide flood? Genocide? Smashing babies against walls? Eternal torment for finite crimes? Seriously, I wouldn’t prescribe eternal punishment even for Hitler, let alone my own children! Christians say atheists send themselves to hell, but if hell exist, humans didn’t create it, so how can we send ourselves there. God created hell. Or at a minimum, god allows hell to exists, and uses his power (or the devil’s) to send souls there. People don’t have supernatural powers, we can’t send ourselves outside our own material world. Hell was created and is allowed to exist, when, I assume an all powerful god made a choice to let it exist. That’s an insane bargain, to want or need to punish eternally. Why? Same with needing to kill a human version of himself on the cross to be ABLE to forgive humans for being exactly how he made them, flawed. What? How does that make any sense? And if you don’t believe it, then you are eternally punished. But not Dahmer, he converted before he died. The only sin god is still apparently unable to forgive is a thought crime. Not being able to suspend our god-given reasoning and logic sufficiently to believe in him and his supernatural abilities. No one believes that plants or other mammals go to an afterlife, so why would people be the only lives worth saving, and saving forever? I have a very loving dog, why doesn’t she get to have an afterlife also? None of this makes sense! Argh!

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

amusing mythology and personal interpretations of it but i prefer lord of the rings.

[@AbleAnderson]

I really like both of these 2. I think JMike needs to work on his cadence and wording a bit and practice not quietly rushing through key parts of what he's trying to say. I think callers miss important points he's making sometimes because he kinda speed mumbles important stuff, but overall I like him.

[@horsepowerenthusiast6933]

Free will was NEVER in the Bible..

[@colinsixhitter3303]

It would have been nice if god had asked mankind if it wanted free will. It would have also been a good test to see if mankind could handle free will. Still god knew what the answer would be because he had ordained everything. Oops maybe he did not give us free will. But first he needed to define freedom, an abstract that does not exist.

[@beastshawnee]

Jmike is why Jayzee came up first... That is how our brain works...by connections with recent things and often things starting with the same letters! My brain spit out O J simpson...O JJJ ...look there is that pesky J again...

[@beastshawnee]

Watch those Darren Brown videos where he predicts what people will draw and what people will purchase by exposing them previously to things that will randomly catch their eye! Pretty amazing...

[@mitchell9110]

From the position of this sixty-eight year old white guy, Kanye > Jay-Z.

[@jeziscricket4448]

Time does not contain Him nor space hold Him. No intelligence can grasp Him nor imagination figure Him. Nothing is like God.

[@dancedecker]

So therefore God is also like ... nothing!! I agree. In fact, God is EXACTLY the same as.. nothing!! Finally.. a theist admits "he" doesn't exist. Brilliant. We are making progress.

[@THR33_Dizzle]

This Kevin dude that keeps calling in has a unique ability to be both boring and excruciatingly annoying at the same time. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@johnd.shultz7423]

More Kevinaciously vapid speculationistic proclaimations that are verbal parades to nowhere,he doesnt seem to recognize the powerfull effect that buried subconscious desires and past conditioning from parents and society etc. have on our behavior, influences we are hardly aware of, mistaking choice for "free will"/this caller has an amazing capacity for stoner languid deepities that are linguistic, but basically meaningless when reflected on...

[@solly119119]

Gonna stay on these Kevin, NY vids just long enough to give a thumbs-down. Now I'm out.

[@BitchspotBlog]

Why in the fuck would you do that? It's not Talk Heathen's fault that Kevin is an idiot. You're downvoting Talk Heathen, not Kevin.

[@solly119119]

@@BitchspotBlog Good for you for catching on, Bitchspot! Of course I'm down voting Talk Heathen. And I'll continue to do it every time they have that idiot on the show. It's not like there aren't plenty of other callers, so don't you think it might be better to hear from them instead of YET ANOTHER moronic call from Kevin, NY?

[@ericwilliams1659]

@@solly119119 luckily posting and replying to chat undermines your thumbs down and helps spread this video via the algorithm. So basically thanks for your support.