What Are Our Epistemologies In Regards To Being Atheist | RJM-MA | Talk Heathen 05.42

Talk Heathen 05.42 for October 17, 2021 with Jmike and Kenneth Leonard.
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Talk Heathen is a weekly call-in television show in Austin, Texas geared toward long-form and on-going dialogue with theists & atheists about religion, theism, & secularism. Talk Heathen is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
Talk Heathen is filmed in front of a live studio audience every week at the Freethought Library of the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Community of Austin is organized as a nonprofit educational corporation to develop & support the atheist community, to provide opportunities for socializing & friendship, to promote secular viewpoints, to encourage positive atheist culture, to defend the first amendment principle of government-religion separation, to oppose discrimination against atheists & to work with other organizations in pursuit of common goals.
We define atheism as the lack of belief in gods. This definition also encompasses what most people call agnosticism.
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NOTES
The views and opinions expressed by hosts, guests, or callers are their own and not necessarily representative of the Atheist Community of Austin.
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[@JasonS-ui8id]

Caller: "Are you done?" JMike: "I'm done, and you'll be done, you know, if you want to have the attitude." Priceless.

[@IRGeamer]

Textbook wilful ignorance and incapacity to listen to anything they don't want to hear.

[@zagwua]

He spent the whole time waiting for his next opportunity to speak.

[@ross-carlson]

Yup, just like a huge majority of callers. And that's after starting so dishonestly by saying he didn't want to just talk past each other then he proceeds to do NOTHING BUT talk past them - and literally talk over them.

[@onlimi616]

Actually it seemed like a lot of the time he never even stopped talking while they were trying to ask him something or clarify his point.

[@ross-carlson]

@@onlimi616 Absolutely - just like a huge percentage of theist callers. No real interest in learning, his only thought and goal is "I'm going to show them", etc.

[@FourDeuce01]

Even though he didn’t have anything worth saying.😂

[@FourDeuce01]

RJM: “Many atheists do not rightly interpret the scriptures.” So you can prove that you rightly interpret the scriptures? Great. Please do it. Nobody else has ever done it.

[@steveg1961]

There's also the claim that a lot of fundamentalist Christians make, that you have to have the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible properly (but note that not all fundamentalists agree with this argument) - and you have to become a Christian to receive the Holy Spirit. When someone makes that kind of claim to me, I just say, "Oh yeah? Then how come you interpret the Bible so badly, and by the way let's talk about Isaiah chapter 7 right now so I can prove beyond all shadow of a doubt how bad you are at interpreting the Bible." And then I do it, and they end up disagreeing with what the Bible states clearly and unequivocally (because they refuse to accept what Isaiah plainly states, that proves it is not a prophecy of Jesus, which their particular religious beliefs force them to believe).

[@funknelson87]

He’s gotten so used to dodging questions about belief by saying “plethora” that he’s convinced himself he doesn’t need a good reason.

[@chriskelly3481]

I think he thinks that "plethora" means, "I believe it, because.... jingly keys."

[@JayJay-two]

His name should be "plethora guy" 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@FourDeuce01]

@@JayJay-two He has a plethora of dodges.😂

[@guytheincognito4186]

@@FourDeuce01 Exactly

[@helenjohnson6385]

He has so many pieces of 'evidence' it's a shame he never gets around to stating one of them

[@Jrpyify]

Thanks for saving me 25 minutes haha

[@magicofjafo]

Zero plus zero plus zero... never equals one.

[@petermirtitsch1235]

He refuses to give any, but demands that they do.

[@ross-carlson]

@@magicofjafo No, it's worse than that - it's "he said" + "he said" + "he said" + "he said" + "he said" = evidence. It's shocking to me how he can be presented the EXACT SAME "evidence" that he's trying to use for ANY other religion but because his is popular it's right. As stated such a simple ad-populum fallacy.

[@chriskelly3481]

Not a one. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@solly119119]

I am loving Kenneth and JMike together as hosts.

[@supertouring22]

Great duo

[@DoingItOutOfLove]

Totally agree! Better team than Batman and Robbin

[@roqsteady5290]

They are veery good at coordinating and yielding to each other, someething other tag teams should learn!

[@leyrua]

He said that he didn't want it to devolve into arguing, and yet he was the one who started yelling. Methinks that HE is the common denominator in all of his conversations with atheists.

[@trevlac2000]

RJM was being very cunning. When asked the same question on why he believes, he would give a general answer. Yet he was trying to get one specific thing so he could say they were wrong or misinterpretation. Loved the way the boy’s handled it

[@teresaamanfu7408]

Religious people are so slippery. When they see that you’re onto them with one thing, they quickly throw in something else and tell you that there’s a plethora of things that make their God true.🤪

[@guytheincognito4186]

@@teresaamanfu7408 Indeed. And at the end of the day they still have nothing at all that makes God true. They could point to a million things and it would still merit the same 'you're still pointing to the same million things all other religions in the world are and its still just as fallacious and ontop of that you've still not given any specifics for why we should accept your special pleading for why your case is different in its exact sameness from theirs. Plus it's still fallacious. Fallacies still can't get us to Truth. Style of answer. 💁‍♂️

[@jeffreyp1855]

@@teresaamanfu7408 , masters of throwing Red Herrings and Moving the Goal Posts! 🤣🤘🏻

[@holdorf333]

This is the embodiment of Angry Church Dad shouting at his kids for sneezing during the communion hymn

[@eamontdmas]

One of things I have learned over years is that when some is going "mhm hm" while you're talking, they are not listening.

[@adithyarajchoorikat9904]

I admire the patience of the hosts. He is not even ready to listen to question.

[@tims8603]

I wouldn't want this guy to be on any jury. He doesn't understand what constitutes evidence. Multiple anecdotes don't add up to evidence.

[@jamesonrosen1773]

If it was 6:5 he would switch his vote cause "look how many there are"

[@heresyify]

@@jamesonrosen1773 Matthew 6:5? Or am I wrong about that?

[@jamesonrosen1773]

@@heresyify no. Talking about a jury voting because he used the popularity fallacy i forgot what its actually called

[@ajhieb]

15:33 _"...the necessary precondition for.."_ Ahhhh... Presupper gonna presupp.

[@petermirtitsch1235]

You caught that, then?

[@JosephKano]

Gotta presup gotta.

[@phrozenwun]

The theist idea of evidence in a court case is something like this: Prosecuting attorney "Your honor I intend to show that the defendant is the real guilty party; look he is sitting right there on the witness stand so he is clearly real and therefor guilty. I rest my case, you may now pass sentencing, God rest his soul."

[@amtlpaul]

In a court case, when it comes to evidence, quality counts for more than quantity. An extremely strong piece of evidence is more likely to get a conviction than a 'plethora' of weak bits and pieces.

[@jessejones1420]

Darth is going to hate this so much!! Haha can't wait to see him rage 😆

[@andrewhandelsman834]

Why is he from the cool darth server?

[@shrek132]

He sounded like a calm Darth D at first. As he got more rattled his mask slipped and was almost convinced it was DD.

[@RichardRoy2]

RJM sounds and behaves like Darth Dawkins. Jmike and Kenneth did a good job of keeping him confined.

[@jonnolee667]

Can you hear the desperation in the believers voice and inability to answer why he believes? his level of dishonesty is staggering.

[@heresyify]

Anytime a caller under this kind of alias calls in on a crusade of character assassination by saying according to your worldview, etc, it’s more than likely a Darth Dawkins acolyte.

[@jeffparent2159]

Thought this was going to be a good call but as is tradition, all theistic claims end in fallacious arguments and a basic lack of understanding of logical discourse and evidentiary standards.

[@UngoogleableMan]

If he's watched a bunch of AE then he'd know it's not just all insults. Why they gotta lie? What isn't backed up by history?? All of it. Noah's flood. Didn't happen. Adam and Eve. Didn't happen. Talking donkeys. Didn't happen. Living in a whale for 3 days. Didn't happen.

[@FourDeuce01]

They gotta lie because lies and logical fallacies are all they have.😂

[@RB-zh1eq]

Were you there? Sorry, I think I was possessed by Ken Ham there for a second.

[@iremembersomethings]

This guy is soooo good at not listening.

[@MAR1N4M1]

How does someone say they have so much evidence, but not have any?

[@RegebroRepairs]

"There is a plethora of evidence" - And yet, you can't bring forward even ONE.

[@BitchspotBlog]

The thing that essentially kills religion is the fact that it's all reliant on feelings, not facts. Just because you're emotionally attached to an idea, that doesn't make it demonstrably true and most theists are unable to set aside their feelings and just examine it objectively. The second you go looking at the Bible or any other religion that way, it all falls apart. And if you notice, RJM kept dodging every single question posed to them because they have nothing intelligent to say.

[@timothybrown5999]

I forget the study, but I remember a gentleman talking to a bunch of Christians telling them about how terrible the Koran was. They agreed. He read some passages that highlighted this and the Christians agreed. Then he let them know they were actually Bible verses. The amount of mental gymnastics that took place was hilariously entertaining.

[@Djr67]

@@timothybrown5999 hahaha love it

[@BitchspotBlog]

@@timothybrown5999 I seem to remember something about that too. It just goes to prove how dumb these people actually are.

[@tTtt-ho3tq]

I'm not so sure. What is it to understand? Or what is it to recognize logical or realize what it is or when it makes sense or ... I mean what it is an aha moment? It was 3 months or so after my late wife passed away. I stepped out when I saw the blue sky and I felt the warm sunlight on my face. It was the very first time I actually realised the sky or the sun or a beautiful day. It was a truly beautiful day with the blue sky and the warm sunlight on my face in an early spring day. But I didn't understand it. I didn't understand it was a beautiful day. I knew it was logically in my head but at the same time I didn't understand it. It didn't make sense to me or something. I tried to make myself understand it was a beautiful day with the blue sky and everything but I couldn't. I understood that day that to understand is nothing to do with logic or reasons in your head. It's your feelings. Is it in your head or in your heart? That I don't know. Or working through logically or reason it out in my head makes that feeling or something? I don't know.

[@ishmaelkelly951]

@@BitchspotBlog not necessarily about these people being dumb ,they just are misinform about their own religion .because I truly believe ninety percent of Christians don't even read their own Bible they only go off of the stuff that preaches or their pastors tell them.

[@delbomb3131]

And the 2021 TH tap dancing award goes to RJM

[@petermirtitsch1235]

Let's see EVIDENCE of a person becoming a devout Christian without knowing anything about Christian scripture, INCLUDING by word of mouth.

[@JimHoffmaster]

So much fun watching this guy’s fake-reasonableness fall apart under pressure…! 😀

[@johnrap7203]

Good comment. Right on point! 👍👍

[@JayMaverick]

RJM desperately trying to shift the burden of proof is indeed evidence of something. Probably not the thing RJM was hoping for though.

[@8044868]

Would people ever reach the conclusion that they were broken, wretched sinners on their own if Christianity didn't tell them so?

[@SimonFD]

The people who invented Christianity certainly did.

[@adamstrange7884]

RJM what is an athiest's epistemology, I am open minded. RJM The Bible proves the Bible cuz I SAID SO!

[@BorisNoiseChannel]

Yeah; Basic epistemology is insulting to god-believers.

[@cy-one]

I'd say insulting people is still better than misrepresenting them.

[@FourDeuce01]

So is basic logic.

[@sanjeevgig8918]

The Argument from "I have lots of arguments" The Evidence is that "I have a plethora of evidence" LOLZ

[@paulmorris8188]

RJM is a typical believer that thinks he’s right and everyone else, no matter WHAT the argument is or how valid it is, is wrong. As soon as the walking on water example was addressed, he IMMEDIATELY asked another question to pivot away from that. So typical…

[@andyrihn1]

“There isn’t just one evidence”. Yeah that’s why they asked for your best, dude. If your best is trash 0+0+0=0 so your entire case can be dismissed

[@andreasplosky8516]

Christian reasoning: 1 bad argument + 1 fallacious argument + 1 nonsensical argument = Good reason to believe

[@FourDeuce01]

JMike asks RJM for the evidence that his fairy tale is true and RJM comes back with another question and more lies about atheists. RJM, before you can accuse other people of improperly interpreting the scriptures, you need to be able to prove that you can interpret them correctly.

[@lennysmith8851]

Great job guys!! You guys are awesome hosts

[@simonkoster]

"But are you a *good* Atheist...?"

[@cy-one]

Oh, screw off :D

[@JosephKano]

I heard that smug friars voice with that one.

[@yachishairclips2250]

Jmike is smart!! He knows how to set boundaries and set things clear before preceeding... He is always trying to build the same ground in the basis of the single argument

[@Bignickfor1]

I am having a hard time understanding why these hosts did not know within a couple of minutes how this call was going to end. All that was achieved was this person was given a platform spouting his dishonest claims.

[@ross-carlson]

Oh I'm sure they did - but in fairness to them he did at least start rather pleasant, seeming to want to engage honestly. But, as is to typical of these calls, it didn't stay anywhere near that at all. "I believe due to so much evidence" - "there's too much evidence to give" - "here's one piece of evidence that is TOTALLY fallacious".

[@bodricthered]

Convincing him isn't the point, it's making it clear how dishonest he is to the audience to train them to do the same in discourse. Indoctrination is hard to break but you can make it obvious to waiverers.

[@amyv8416]

RJM - "plethora of all different things that come together to say that it's true" CC - "preponderance of different CATEGORIES of evidence" When "all of the different things", like CC's "preponderance of different CATEGORIES of evidence", are all crap, what's the use of any of it?

[@matth8946]

RJM is ridiculous. Hey dude, you have a plethora of evidence? Start giving some that’s worth while.

[@johnbross4219]

I like how Christians say no one outside of Christianity interprets the Bible correctly when the Bible itself isn't correct

[@kam3410]

Darth Dawkins lol world view is always a key term.

[@FourDeuce01]

“I’d like to approach this with believing that you guys have done your due diligence…yadda yadda yadda.” Try approaching it with some basic logic, which tells you that whether other people have done their due diligence has nothing to do with whether you can prove your fairy tale is true.

[@bpdrumstudio]

And yet no amount of claims can ever equal evidence especially if there is none

[@mikesommer1914]

He should of started the call with "sorry, i dont answer questions".

[@graemedear5360]

Two of the best hosts well done guys!!

[@fullTimeVeganinOhio]

I wouldn't have the patience to tell him a thousand true things but it would be amusing to see him Believe I Can Walk on Water

[@NOXFPV]

Wonder what he was like before the "change". Argument from authority don't cut it.

[@alasdairwhyte6616]

belief is not evidence anything - 100% of people could believe something but it does not make it true

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

I've said it before, you can usually tell which apologist a caller prefers; this guy is definitely a J. Warner Wallace guy

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Oh and some Kent Hovind, that "branch of all different types of studies" sounds a lot like his cosmological/geological evolution drivel

[@Valicroix]

Oh, I really like Mike. RJM keeps dodging the question doesn't he?

[@PBAmygdala2021]

The religious callers never seem to learn that they are the perfect deconversion tool for the audience.

[@petermirtitsch1235]

Oh, surprise, when RJM is asked a direct question for evidence of his beliefs, he totally evades giving an answer.

[@puddlemage]

I'm 4 minutes in, and I'm sure this guy has a lot of evidence. All that evidence must demand a verdict!

[@DaPradaGap]

As a misguided atheist, I could've really used one of those "many pieces of evidence" that he had.

[@AlanFehr]

Caller: I think we keep talking past each other. Also caller: (constantly interrupts hosts.)

[@AlanFehr]

Omg. Dude keeps interrupting so that he can "figure out where this is going"??? 😅😅😅

[@solly119119]

At about the 9:20 mark (start at about 8:30 for context - if you're curious that is), that was probably the funniest thing I've ever heard a host on an atheist show say.

[@etrigan69]

I thought this guy may have been different with his preamble. He quickly threw that in the nearest dumpster.

[@JayMaverick]

Dodging questions for god. Classic.

[@jeffreyp1855]

As an athiest, I cannot make the claim, "There is no God!", because that would place the burden of proof on me and I don't give enough of a shit to try to prove that a God doesn't exist. My default position is the same as Matt Dillahunty, "Absence of evidence, is evidence of absence." If one has to suspend their skepticism and resort to faith in order to believe in something then that something, is probably not worth believing in.

[@vertigo4236]

To be honest, all god proposals lack demonstrable sufficient evidence. So according to Hitchens's razor, "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." So you don't have to prove that a god doesn't exist, if the theists haven't done their burden first.

[@buonafortuna8928]

Interesting call.

[@advorak8529]

_My evidence for God is "all the many things" and I will not name even one, but even if you disprove 10 million reasons, I still have more._ _Also I don't answer questions._ Great strategy when you have no arguments, no evidence, nothing to back your assertions up.

[@thegreatcanadianweasel9928]

His argument was that people changed their lives through belief without knowing scripture? Not that they were unaware of Christianity itself, its story, or its tenets, but that they didn't know the exact words of the bible? Like I grew up secular, but still in a country flooded with Christianity. I knew all about it without reading the exact words. They are right for calling out his fallacy, and stating quite truly that other religions can make the same claim easily.

[@FourDeuce01]

Theists: Let’s talk anything except the fact that we can’t prove any gods exist.😈

[@adamjohannesson3434]

Fascinating

[@toforgetisagem8797]

As an atheist I do not feel that I have any obligation to give a monkey banana about all this God stuff. When asked a question and it is dodged it goes a long way to confirming my belief that all this god stuff is nonsense.

[@jeziscricket4448]

JMike the only good a testimony will do for you, is only to tell you that... this life is all your getting from Him _-|-_

[@fishcious]

As soon as a theist says anything about wrong interpretations of the buybull, they've lost in my eyes. Humans are a social species and I'd argue that our most important trait is our ability to communicate. Any god who is a god of the human race would thus have to be a perfect (or at least nearly so) communicator. If you admit there are multiple and/or wrong interpretations of your god's word, then either your god doesn't exist, he isn't a god for people, or he is a failure and not worthy of worship.

[@4um360]

Hey, if you tell me a thousand true things, and you also tell me you can walk on water, I’ll believe you one thousand times.

[@luckyb4541]

The plural of anecdote is not fact .

[@radishpineapple74]

Is this Darth Dawkins? It sounds just like him.

[@phrozenwun]

Tap dancing shoes on sale now, buy one, get one half off.

[@jesperjee]

What it comes down to is honesty. People who are honest with themselves understand that there are no evidence for god and that it's ultimately irrational. People who aren’t honest claim they know.

[@davidroberts1689]

Once you have decided a god exists, then you have another decision...which god?

[@jamspiders4154]

RJM is nuts

[@dlon4539]

Aren't Theists concerned that God might not like or love them, but have to tolerate them. When you come into God's presence, what interesting conversation could possibly stop God from kicking my boring arse to hell

[@richardmooney383]

The "court case" analogy seems particularly apposite. In court lawyers present the cases that best support their clients' positions, whether they believe them or not. In theist-atheist debates much the same generally happens.

[@petermirtitsch1235]

Funny how RJM refuses to give examples of evidence/proofs for God, so they can break them down and give examples of the fallacies used, but he insists that THEY supply examples of what led them to atheism. Almost a transferral of the burden of proof there. That's an example of the fallacious techniques beloved of theists.

[@ross-carlson]

Very simple "the plural of anecdote is NOT evidence for ANYTHING".

[@paulfinkelstein1448]

Rejecting the opportunity to present your star witness is not a good way to win a trial, even if you have lots of other evidence. Moreover, if it can be established that your strongest piece of evidence is not admissible because it lacks privatize value, then it can be safely assumed that your weaker “evidence” will not have evidentiary value or be admissible. If you insist on using a court analogy, you can’t assert that the totality of the evidence is convincing if your very best evidence is not admissible. Therefore, when an atheist asks for your best evidence, they are testing the bare minimum to entertain the case. In legal terms, it is a motion for summary judgment.

[@anngladstone9130]

I picked up from his first couple sentences that this is the notorious Darth Dawkins. He has gone by so many names on so many shows. His location and accent will also change to get past the call screeners, but his arguments are still presuppositional bullying techniques to get you to say 'yes' to one of his claims. He has a terrible temper when he's confronted, once again displayed here.

[@deadweaselsteve3262]

Using the courtroom analogy. we can see the real problem. Real courtrooms use naturalist epistemology to evaluate evidence. We look at the system, establish the boundary states, specify the system rules, let the system run, then interpret the output. In the case of the supernatural, we can't use that epistemology. The supernatural is a completely different category of reality; naturalist epistemology is irrelevant. So what epistemology is available? None whatsoever. This is the problem: the supernaturalists have no way to get their god in the first place. They can't have no relevant epistemology to get to one. There is literally nothing to talk about.

[@mrdrone4253]

I've heard this guy call in before. He is very argumentative and does not want to hear the other side. He simply wants to tell his side and show that the other side is stupid

[@jmaniak1]

Why is it that every person on the planet has a different interpretation of the “inerrant” word of god?

[@TheCheapPhilosophy]

Imagine you are in a court case... and the accused of existence is not there! That is the case for EVERY god from books. All we have is humans insisting that the guy exists, and is their version and not the version the other humans insist on...

[@terryfall8915]

Evidence is testable, repeatable and observable by non-believers.

[@NN-wc7dl]

"The pletora" made me an atheist. Different pletoras out there apparently.

[@billw2126]

wow, that caller was a piece of work. Scary.

[@chickenpants]

This is really frustrating. He doesn't ever ackchually get the fucking point.

[@danmallery9142]

It's kind of ironic that he calls in and says he doesn't like other programs because they degenerate into heated arguments and name calling and in less than 15 minutes, he becomes testy, talking over the hosts, ignores questions and moves on to his next point, which is basically that Atheists 'are misguided and don't understand scripture.' He may or may not have entered into the conversation in good faith to discuss epistemology but it ended up with him frustrated that he could teach the atheists what they should actually believe.

[@durrutti]

This is that darth dawkins guy, lol

[@nofaithrequired859]

Why do we have 2 host? Mike & Kenneth are both fantastic but it gets confusing for the caller to be onterrupted so much and it makes it diificult to respond. It's almost like 'ganging up' on somebody.

[@Qzopr1]

The number of hosts doesn’t matter. The theist will not answer the question because he can’t fathom being shown the error of his arguments. They tap dance around the questions asked while trying to get some burden on the unbeliever. I don’t need any evidence to NOT believe your claims. I just know that I remain unconvinced.

[@latinzane]

RJM thinks he can clarify the issues that cause someone to be an atheist due to his views. That's why he's trying to pinpoint the hosts' "issues". Because he is the one and only who truly and clearly understands the word of God.😂😂😂 😂😂😂

[@rayxav]

You know when a theist knows they have nothing when they talk about evidence that could be enough to present in the equivalent of court and then they proceed to NOT provide court worthy evidence.

[@sparki9085]

I wonder why RJM isntva muslim. There's lots of em, and its really changed their life!

[@Codswallop58]

This guy is the textbook definition of a dishonest interlocutor. And it's a great illustration of how his mind works. He thinks he's using evidence, but he never gets around to presenting it

[@steveg1961]

The caller does not understand the meaning of the word "knowledge" when he refers to "saving knowledge." Plus, what he's calling "saving knowledge" is the exact point that JMike had just discussed, that the caller wrongly stated was a "mischaracterization." It's the same thing for virtually any devout religious believer of any religious faith - religions which are collectively incoherent and contradictory - which is exactly what proves that religious FEELINGS (i.e., not knowledge) are not good evidence for anything except for how people can be strongly motivated (and exploited) by their personal feelings to believe in false ideas.

[@cjinoc71]

I love and have much respect for JMike and Kenneth. They are so educated and succinct on defending atheism using logic, reason and fact. Unfortunately, from their calls I have listened to like RJM, they assume that their theist callers know more and place more importance on logic and reasoning than they actually do most of time. So since they talk over their unevolved minds the message gets lost sometimes. It's a shame too, because JMike and Kenneth's arguments are valid and sound and they shouldn't have to dumb themselves down. Very frustrating.