Why Grey Jedi Aren't Actually Real - The Fatal Misunderstanding of the Force Explained

[@tjmcfadden5137]

I love that alot of people also like to say Qui-Gon was a grey Jedi and it's like no he was just a maverick that liked to be more independent but he did respect the council to an extent and really Qui-Gon just chose to be more connected to the living force instead of the universal force like most of the order was at that time.

[@PootZekus]

For me and in my conversations its always that he's the closest thing we got to a grey jedi in the movies

[@thalmoragent9344]

Meh, not even that, he was more connected to the will of the Force and not the Republic like the Council did

[@HouseOfAlastrian]

If anything, Qui-Gon was far more attuned to the Light Side than any other Jedi in his day. The rest of the Order was too preoccupied with their place in the Republic and their allegiance to the Republic to ever attain a proper understanding of the will of The Force. He was the truest Jedi of them all.

[@iitim2152]

@@HouseOfAlastrian Legends plays with the idea of a "light side corruption" the tendency for its practitioners to become dogmatic, and uncompromising. That is what doomed the old republic jedi.

[@geetslys]

Yes. that is a perfect way to describe qui-gon. He definitely respected the council but wasn't always on the same page as them!

[@michaelrobertson4896]

This makes a lot of sense but there’s one thing that doesn’t make sense. The Bendu, the one in the middle. He states that he has no allegiance to either he light or the dark. So that begs the question where exactly does he stand in all of that? If there is no Grey or neutral point in the Force then Bendu has to be put somewhere. Keria could be labeled as Dark Side Neutral but could that mean the Bendu is Light Side Neutral?

[@coltonross5414]

The father also seems to hint that the light and dark need to both be kept from taking over the other. That's why he wanted Anakin to replace him because he could control the brother and the sister.

[@JainaSoloB312]

Bendu was ultimately on the Light Side, aiding Ezra and Kanan and opposing Thrawn. He believed he was in the middle, but his actions indicate otherwise. As you say, very much like how Kreia was obviously still of the Dark Side (her being balanced in the stats menu is because she's hiding her true nature from the player). Hope that helps!💜

[@SuperGamefreak18]

the Bendu was someone who understood the force as a whole and his values overall aligned with light side users more.

[@JainaSoloB312]

@@coltonross5414 Really confusing I know but the Son and Daughter aren't the Dark and the Light incarnate. It's kinda hard to follow but in the episode they represent Selfishness and Selflessness, which are the motivations which serve the Dark and Light. Seems pedantic but when the Son goes evil the Father says "my son has fallen to the Dark Side" which indicates that the Dark Side is not part of the natural balance. On a cosmic scale, think of the Dark Side as a corruption, like a cancer in the Force. On a personal scale, think of the Dark Side as the One Ring, the nigh-irresistible temptation of power which begins corrupting you as soon as you use it.

[@ryanmoore6259]

@@coltonross5414 That was more an attempt to keep from having to chose between his kids.

[@nathanjones8177]

I feel like especially in the case of Qui-Gon Jinn people way overestimate how much of a renegade/maverick he was. Broadly speaking the dude rightfully believed the Jedi were to beholden to Republic politics, and the tenants of an inefficient honor code as opposed to the will of the force. However, he seemed to actually have quite a bit of respect towards prominent members of the council like Yoda or windu, and was even naive to how far they had fallen from grace if his shock at how they didn't recognize Anakin as.the chosen one right away is anything to go by.

[@neodigremo]

Obi Wan does say that If Qui-Gon was just a little bit less of a maverick he would be on the council. And he was definitively a Jedi Master. Ok, Obi-Wan could be wrong but it seems that Qui-Qon was very highly respected as a Jedi, just seen as a bit to anti-establishment to work well on the council. Also lets not forget Qui-Gon had gone to Naboo as part of a personal favour to the Chancellor, so he clearly was not anti-republic either.

[@ZeroHakaru]

I'm always baffled about the existence of the common fan definition for Grey Jedi. I always understood it as a Force User who practiced the Light Side, but didn't fully subscribe to the Jedi Order's methodology. Even Jolee Bindo, who most people like to use as an example, is stated by Juhani to still walk the path of the Light. Similar to how Dark Jedi were practitioners of the Dark Side, but not to the way of the Sith.

[@Underworlddream]

Agree, for example in legends Jensaarai basically have almost the same belief/teaching of the Sith and hated Jedi but the Sith just viewed them as Jedi and lightsider because they were not corrupted by the dark side. They even try to exterminate them. Legend Sith basically hated all force user even other Darksider and whiled they may tolerate other Sith they would still eventually want to be the last and in charge.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Yeah, you can have Light and Dark users of the force that aren't subscribed to the political or Methodology of the Jedi or Sith Orders

[@Mr_Penguins_Pet_Human]

My view is similar, to me it's a person who uses the light side but uses it for personal gain or other selfish reasons.

[@Mr_Penguins_Pet_Human]

@@thalmoragent9344 I deleted my comment as I mis read yours. Yes that's talked about a lot in legends. Especially with how luke and later, Jacen (and then luke again) visited many of the other force users to learn about their philosophy and force techniques.

[@geetslys]

Well said!

[@fealubryne]

The concept reminds me of Lord of the Rings, when Gandalf and Galadriel refuse the ring, telling Frodo they'd take it with a desire to do good, but the ring would instead corrupt them despite their wishes.

[@JainaSoloB312]

With that, you understand the Force better than like 95% of Star Wars fans

[@naseemweathers8358]

I think people take the games as actual Star Wars contact you don’t see any force user in the movies or animated shows using both the light in the dark side of the force that’s only in games you know how gullible people just take things and run with it? I think that’s what some people do

[@Demortra]

@@naseemweathers8358 Yet in the comics it does come about a few times, one being Luke Skywalker's descendant where he used force lightning to revive his master. Then again it's not a story Disney would tell as well... They kept only 23 books out of 3-400 as canon.

[@heretical_cuttlefish]

This right here is exactly it. The point of the dark side is that it is a corruption of the force for one's own goals, which in turn corrupts the user.

[@naseemweathers8358]

@@Demortra just because you can use force lightning it doesn’t mean that a person is using both the light and the dark side of the force remember Ray use force lightning

[@goldeagle6431]

The Senate is VERY real.

[@kirankuntz8893]

Good day Gov'nah!

[@michaelglynn7010]

And who is the senate?

[@ammoiscurrency5706]

A hive of scum and villainy

[@honotenshi]

@KatoenBruh that fool could never build an empire if he can't even get Obama care to work.

[@sheevpalpatine2128]

@@michaelglynn7010 me

[@nicholaswallace2575]

I always understood the force to be like a pond or a small lake. Force sensitives wade through it. Light side users moving slowly carefully as to not disturb it, darksiders rushing towards their goals without care. The pond being tranquil is the force being in balance, thus the reason why eliminating the sigh would bring balance to it

[@-CrimsoN-]

I don't think the term "gray Jedi" is dumb or anything, but it definitely gets thrown around way too often. A perfect example of gray Jedi are the Imperial Knights from the Legacy era of Legends. Their only loyalty is towards the Emperor of the Fel Empire and they reject the dark side, but don't call on the light side either. Their training emulates this as they focus solely on combat and martial techniques as opposed to contemplating the nature of the Force as a light-sided Jedi would do. To the Imperial Knights, the Force is just a tool to be used in their services towards the Emperor.

[@Underworlddream]

Legends thing get weird and interesting like their Darksiders group that Jedi are fine with and get along with them because the Jedi doesn't even view them as Darksiders.

[@-CrimsoN-]

@@Underworlddream Which darksiders? Nightsisters?

[@tjmcfadden5137]

So true and even the imperial Knights still uphold that the emperor or empress can't fall to the dark side. Then it becomes the duty of the order to redeem their leader or execute them.

[@Underworlddream]

@@-CrimsoN- Not them but jedi just usually leave night sister alone sense they tend to stay on their planet. There lots of force organizations that get little coverage in the wider media. The group I was talking about are the Shaper of Kro Var, they are the dark side force group that Jedi get along with and even send envoys to learn from them and some travel outside their world to learn from others. Mother Tenzin of the Nightsister do know of them.

[@bodaciouschad]

@@-CrimsoN- Are the nightsisters *actually* darksiders of the force, though? I thought that they enacted the will of their ancestor spirits and tapped into their own species specific branch of the Force, like a Night Force or something.

[@LysimedVenteel]

It really frustrates me when people use the first definition of a grey Jedi for Ahsoka Tano. You could argue she’s far closer to the light side than the dogmatic and puritan Jedi of the Clone Wars era.

[@JainaSoloB312]

Absolutely!

[@dakotatrue12]

Yes people like Ahsoka and Qui-Gon are what I call "true jedi". Most jedi during the clone wars, most but not all, were corrupted by politics. They a re not necessarily fake jedi but they were blinded. Gray jedi are light side users who don't follow the path of the jedi. Ahsoka followed the path of the jedi in every way but name.

[@marielawrence468]

Yeah she even claims not to be a Jedi, it’s like grey Jedi so still a Jedi yall!! Like Come on now!

[@christopherg2347]

@@marielawrence468 The Jedi are not the only lightsiders. The same way the Sith are not the only darksiders. The Jedi are a dogma trying to produce _overall_ more lightsiders then darksiders. Given how few fell despite the entire clone wars, I think they were doing well.

[@kennethsatria6607]

Maybe grey jedi could be reclassified as ronin type light side users? I'd be okay with that I think it suits them usually weilding the purified sith sabers.

[@INTEL-REDACTED]

kreia hated that the force has a will because that means everything is predestined and individual will does not exist unless you force it. as she realized killing the force entirely was not possible she sought to create a chain of force echos that would deafen all life to the force but not kill it. kreia was definitely evil but as she re-trains meetra surik, she's also implying that metro can choose who she is, choose to not be bound by the forces idea of destiny, but also not that the force is always wrong. "If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea." she's not saying that the jedi or sith are inherently right or wrong but unless you understand both you are still a drone with no free will. until the end of the game she is a sound candidate for a grey zone.

[@billy1513]

I do believe that you need to see both sides and their perspectives to be truly free while still maintaining a connection with the force. That doesn’t mean using the dark side, but see what it is and what it does as well as why beings use it. This can be pretty well represented by the Grey Jedi code if you read it. Pretty much, you must have your own will while still listening to the Will of the Force for guidance and help steering you away from you improperly using the force in currupting ways.

[@INTEL-REDACTED]

@@billy1513 there is no grey Jedi code because being being grey is to follow your own code.

[@jarlbalgruufthegreat7488]

She is not. She manipulates everyone to further her own goals and is willing to aid you kill the jedi masters just to prove her teachings true. She manipulates Atton, Hanharr, Mandalore mostly by blackmailing them or threatening them. I'd say that's pretty dark to me already.

[@billy1513]

@@INTEL-REDACTED there technically are a few Grey Jedi codes however it depends on what you believe a Grey Jedi is. Is it someone who follows their own code or someone who follows the Grey Jedi code in their own way. Yet still stays true to the code

[@billy1513]

@@INTEL-REDACTED

[@Rahhelthethird]

How odd, the first gray Jedi I was thinking of was Kyle Katarn. Guess the fandom really changed if Qui-Gon and Ashoka are the first ones people think of.

[@geetslys]

How times have changed

[@anthonyschlessman1848]

I think it just means ur an old man, I thought of him first too

[@vruxdrossgaming]

Kyle Katarn was my first thought.

[@Phantom_Zer0]

Yep but Disney took a dump on everything and an Kyle is forgotten, Kyle is one of my favorite characters in star wars next to Anakin, he certainly is better than every single character created or touched by Disney, i really hate Disney Leia. But Kyle wasn't grey, he was jedi, we only see him as grey because we could use dark side powers in the games, but that's just a mechanic to make the game fun.

[@anthonyschlessman1848]

@@Phantom_Zer0 it's not just a mechanic, Luke expressed his displeasure of him using the dark side, and it's part of the overall story

[@Acoto]

If the dark side is "imbalance", why did the dark-side Son exist in the Clone Wars? It seemed to me he was a natural part of the force as much as the light-side Daughter. The assumption that the Light-side WAS balance when many of the galaxy's denizens had wildly different moralities, many opposing the light-side philosophies, seems like the kind of flawed logic the Jedi would have taught.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

That and there are many places and peoples in the Star Wars universe with inherent natural ties to the Dark Side. The Sith species and the Rakatans were both natural dark side using species, planets like Dagobah and Ach-To have wellsprings of Darkness, and some planets like Korriban gave off such an intense energy of the Dark that it called the Dark Jedi to it.

[@mocha9072]

In fact it was literally going to be Anakin's job to stay there and keep the balance but he refused.

[@dakotatrue12]

The Son fell to the dark side, he wasnt naturally a dark side user and this was said by the Father in the episode. This implies that the dark side is NOT natural. Everything Geetslys says is absolutely true and this is how George Lucas intended it to be. I know it can sometimes be confusing

[@papapalps2415]

@@dakotatrue12 "Everything Geekslys says is absolutely true." "Everything Geekslys says is a surely true..." "Everything Geekslys says...is absolutely True..." "Everything...Geekslys...says...is....absolutely....true..." "Everything.... Geekslys.... Says... Is..... Absolutely.... True..." .... God I fucking hate the Internet.

[@dr.boring7022]

George Lucas himself said that the Dark Side was like making a deal with the devil. It will grant you great power, but at a cost of your humanity. However still, there are instances where that isnt the case, especially in the Old Republic era. But generally, everything that Lucas wrote was Light Side good Dark Side bad. There currently is too much conflicting canon to truly know what Balance is.

[@shilohlee4332]

I've read that "Balance of the Force" refers to the Living Force (Be in the moment / Living / Healing / Empathy) and Cosmic Force (Look to the future / Detached / Prophecy), both aspects of the Light Side.

[@JainaSoloB312]

Oooh that's an interesting interpretation, I'm surprised I hadn't heard it before!💜

[@celestialrenamon]

An interesting point, however I think it should also be pointed out that passion is a very “in the moment” concept. Which is a dark side aspect.

[@Drago7166]

“There are no grey zones in the force and no grey Jedi”. I have to say it… Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[@Signal_Lost.]

Which is pretty confusing if you think about it. That phrase is itself an absolute, and anything absolute is wrong. Not because it's untrue, but because of the lack of nuance.

[@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc]

All I can say is welcome to Geetsly's takes on the Jedi and the force (which can best be described as Jedi cult = good, not Jedi cult = bad). (Edit). As to me calling the Jedi a cult, the characteristics like raising its members to know nothing but the Jedi, ejecting members who formed outside attachments, and hold highly dogmatic beliefs.

[@JainaSoloB312]

@Always Plotting That's how it's always been. From its very inception George's concept of The Force has been a dualistic Good vs Evil cosmic dichotomy. There is almost no evidence in over 40 irl years of storytelling, over 200,000 years of lore, that a Force User can achieve Balance between the Light and Dark. It's a nice idea, but it's totally antithetical to the story. Show me a single benevolent Force-user who uses the Dark Side throughout but gets a happy ending and maybe I'll consider it a possibility.

[@JainaSoloB312]

@@FirstNameLastName-tg3rc Jedi cult is usually bad, actually, they rarely follow the tenets of the Light (Luke in the end of RotJ is the rare exception, that's what a Jedi should be). That being said, they're definitely still way better than the Sith they oppose because they don't for example torture people for fun.

[@Do_not_at_me_bro]

The statement is an absolute, saying a statement that is absolute is not the same thing as dealing in absolutes.

[@thecruzking]

I think this grey Jedi thing is such a persistent idea because when taking the force at a glance, both Jedi and sith are extremes. Jedi must purge themselves of almost all emotion and must be completely selfless, which is fine to have people like that running around, even if it can be unhealthy mentally speaking since you have to give up a lot of the things that make you 'human'. While Sith is entirely selfish not really caring for anyone else. which most people want none of them running around. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, of these extremes they can be charitable, kind and strive for good, and above all be selfless. While at the same time still being a bit selfish, having passions, people they love, things they want, and embracing their emotions not just the 'negative' ones like anger but the 'positive' ones like joy and love. This middle is seen as being a balanced individual in our world. so people correlate the traits of a balanced person to that of a balanced force user. which is something that most people can more easily see themselves falling into that role, instead of being so incredibly selfish or selfless that you start being self-destructive. I think people just want nuanced in the force and those who use it. I understand the force is supposed to be more straight good and evil. but I also know that I am too kind to ever be a sith, but not selfless enough to give up the things that make me human-like free will. so I understand the appeal of 'grey Jedi. personally, I like to think the force has no sides, no light, and dark just the force. it is simply a part of the galaxy that with the right knowledge/training a force users can tap into it. that is is the people who have light and dark in them, it is their choices and intentions that lean to the light or dark. falling to the Darkside is not some mystical corrupting entity it is you giving into the worst parts of yourself.

[@bigheadj.r.628]

I agree with your idea, I like to think that in the force in most aspects, it's not the power that makes you what you are, It's what you do with it defines who you are, I'm pretty sure there were some cases of Jedi using dark side powers but being used for good.

[@Meroublood]

That was beautiful, and insightful, I agree 100%

[@Kyzen_Wrell]

I literally could not have phrased this better myself. Well spoken!

[@plebiansociety]

Except that you missed the part that the force has an actual will, like a sentience. It's like the light side is a conscience. Being simply touched by the dark side is like a pedophile who doesn't act on his urges, playing with the dark side is like a pedo jerking to child porn who doesn't personally harm children but uses actions of those that do to quell their urges, and practicing the dark side is a full blown child toucher. At what point in that is he on the middle as a pedo, where he's not a person who would imagine touching a child and being a pedo? How far into that does he lose his identity as a non-pedo? Where is the "grey" between right and wrong? The dark side is a corruption, there's no "a little corrupted"

[@ReshyShira]

A big problem is defining what the dark side is, most of it isn't anything concrete. It's more or less whatever's thought to be bad by the writers at the time.

[@mogwiawolf4354]

one must know both sides of the force to truly understand the force but must not be over come by one or the other

[@apathyreview3964]

But they are a Yin and Yang. I cite these as proof a) The dimension with the son and the daughter? That was a representation and metaphor of the universe in general. They were literally a representation of the way things are. Call it selfishness and selflessness whatever. The one is of the light the other of the dark. And if the son represents selfishness(and not the dark as some will argue) then he still represents dark because selfishness is of the dark. So yeah back to the beginning they represent light and dark as intrinsics. b) I cite the numerous planets NATURALLY high in dark side energy. Therefore dark side is not the force being "bent" into anything. They were drawing on energy that was already there. c) The fact that the dark side corrupts does not make it unnatural. Humans and life, in general, are constantly corrupting. We call it aging and dying. The dark side represents this natural side of life energy. The fact that it decays and dies. d) Grey Jedi could use the dark without being affected by it. Being affected by those energies negatively might even just be a lack of knowledge(because the light had been studied far longer by more people). e) To use your own words, being able to use both sides without being affected: That's about as grey as it gets. f) Evil exists. It's not just a corruption of good. It's a separate thing with it's own energy. The SW universe acknowledges evil and therefore the dark as a separate thing that can and is able to be brought into balance.

[@Sumowning]

I also disagree with the video, I just think the whole light = good, dark = bad is just so simple. There are so many inconsistencies with it, as you said that some places are naturally high in dark side energy, how is this ten possible when it's supposed to be the user bending the force to it's will instead of the light where the force bends them to it's will. Whilst in the same idea, if the force does everything in the good of the universe or whatever, and there should just be light.. okay, why not destroy the dark side.. the places of darkside power, races that are more sensitive to the dark side in order to preserve the light.. At what point does the light side either becomes tyrannical or complacent. And much like real life, just because you took morphine once to dull the pain, doesn't mean you're an addict now..Geek claims here that the moment you touch the dark side, boom that's it you're trapped.. even though there are light siders who have used dark side powers

[@sean668]

A lot of people in the comments seem to be misunderstanding why exactly the light side represents balance. Jedi are not instructed to 'suppress' their humanity, but to accept and control it (eg, "we are encouraged to love"). That's a considerable distinction.

[@anteprs7908]

not true by letting the force guide you you become nothing more then a shell for the force

[@mmmhmmm8236]

Geetsly's: The existence of the Grey Jedi are not real. Star Wars Fandom: THEY ARE REAL TO ME!

[@naseemweathers8358]

And that’s the problem some toxic Star Wars fans want to put their version into Star Wars that’s just your opinion that’s not what Star Wars is

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

The “Yin-Yang” concept seems to be mostly new canon, and I think it makes sense as a concept. I feel like both the original idea and the yin-yang concept work really well, but they absolutely don’t work well together.

[@Spartan3D213]

That and the fact the Jedi seem to have similarities with asian religions like Buddhism doesn't help either.

[@MultiNumenor]

The concept of yin and yang was one of the most important parts of the old canon, it's not a concept of the new canon. In the old canon there was organizations like the jee'daii or the Voss

[@MultiNumenor]

@@Testingthisname i don't need a glorified youtuber to explain to me what star wars is nor i need to conform to the toxic fandom and their made up ideas of what star wars should be. I find ludicrous the way the fandom of star wars create a film in their own mind and try to change the saga to make it fit with their self made theories. Star wars is just the book, the movies and the comics, so the jensaarai are like they are, the jee'dai too, and when Bendu said that he is in the middle it is, no strange theories, no interpretation and no ideology wars. Geetsly is not 100% right, so he can be biased like everyone else.

[@ignisinfernal1843]

@@MultiNumenor Sounds like you're the biased one. Lucas has been clear on this from the beginning. Trying to be between the light and dark just leads to the dark side and balance in the Force means destroying the Sith, who pervert the Force. That's the way it was in the films and that's way it was always intended to be. The films and Lucas' original vision come before anything else even if the story of the Jee'dai contradicted it, which it doesn't. Literally the whole point of that story is that they tried to be "gray" and it just ended up in people being drawn to the dark side and a civil war breaking out. You can say that you like your idea better, but don't try and change the facts of the saga to fit your narrative. The fandom can be toxic and rely too much on fan theories, but this isn't one of them.

[@ryanmoore6259]

@@MultiNumenor Uh those blatantly contradicted Lucas' vision

[@johnnygyro2295]

I still can't help but feel a balance between selfish and selfless is preferable. Maybe I just don't like the idea of a collective consciousness/hive mind. After all, why give people free will if you want them to lose it? That said, I will agree that Kreia was batshit insane with her whole "destroy the Force" plan. She would've created more Force vampires like Nihilus and/or destroy all life in the galaxy!

[@Verboten_Joey]

Her philosophy sounds like an Anarchists perspective of the force. I would agree with her that there is something unsettling about a cosmic will trying to impose itself on people's lives.

[@SupremeKingToshiro]

I disagree the force need to be destroyed all it has done has caused problems in the galaxy.

[@zexalbrony4799]

To be fair, Kreia did have good points about how evil the Force can be with it trying to control everyone and take their free will from them by forcing them to do something because it's their destiny. Everyone deserves free will and the ability to make your own choices without influence. Of course, when your free will leads you to become some kind of evil Sith bent on ruling the galaxy and hurting everyone, you kind of lose any argument that free will in this case is a good thing.

[@EDIAV42]

I can kinda see where Kreia was coming from with being manipulated by some omnipresent and dubious force without your permission. Having your will and your being called into question, any and all actions examined whether they were really “your will” is just plain scary. So why not make the scary unconscious web that connects and manipulates all life go away? At least that’s how I imagine her mind thought while rationalized behind wise philosophy and such. Doesn’t make her right but can at least see her viewpoint of how she didn’t want to be a tool and wanted to be sure she was “herself.” What better way to do that then to embark on a course of action the force would never endorse?

[@bodaciouschad]

@@EDIAV42 the tragedy of Kreia is that her very *existence* was the will of the Force- she was destined to advocate against the will of the Force *by the very Force she sought to destroy.*

[@seanmurphy7011]

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will."

[@spacejunk2186]

One could say the fact that living things can interact with the force at all is an error in the structure of the star wars universe that dooms it to eternal cycles conflict and evil that take insane amounts of struggle to break momentarily. It is almost a curse.

[@schmoozemoose26]

We can agree that in Canon, there aren't any gray Jedi. But I do think that the narrative loses something when we're supposed to believe that the galaxy far, far away is morally dichotomous. And even the will of the Force is internally inconsistent. If all you had to do was be in tune with the Force to know it's will and the most in tune were made Jedi council members, how can they have disagreements on how to handle a given situation? If everything happens according to the will of the Force how can Darksiders exist unless they embody that will too? I think the canonical absence of gray Jedi reduces the moral complexity we find in our own galaxy and keeps us from developing more interesting stories

[@JainaSoloB312]

Much like nobody can achieve true balance, nobody can be so perfectly in-tune with the Force that they understand exactly what it wants. We can only guess, and everyone will have their own interpretation. Those who are more open to the Force will have a more educated guess, but it is still ultimately a guess. The same thing is believed to happen in this world with various religions, particularly monotheistic ones. Whether everything happens according to the Will of the Force is a great example of how interpretations can differ. Many believe that to be true, but some believe certain things (like the existence of Sith) happen in opposition to the Will of the Force, and it's just trying to correct all the destinies such opposition sends onto different paths which the Force did not intend for them. Others still believe that the Force has no will, and only exists as a power to be drawn from.

[@zkapsh]

One I disagree that it somehow reduced the moral complexity not having grey, I would actually argue they grey are equivalent to "enlightened centrist", to me it throws out any actual political/moral conflicts. Not everything, is a both side same coin situation. This Idea that there has to be some middle ground is such simple and apathetic way at looking at morals. I would say that the grey jedi themselves are similar to how mlk described white moderates during civil rights movement and his later workers right fights. "I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

[@shilohlee4332]

@@JainaSoloB312 (respectfully expanding;) Also, it is noted that the stronger the Dark Side grows, the more clouded the visions and insight of the Jedi becomes. During the Golden Ages of the Jedi the connection was likely incredibly clear, but during Dark Times, like the Sith Wars, the Clone Wars, or the Rebellion, there is little clarity to find. Also noted, the Will of the Force doesn't speak basic. Everyone translates things slightly differently. Feeding into the above points.

[@schmoozemoose26]

I'm not sure what your position on the will of the Force is? Does it exist? And if it does are you saying the best that those most attuned to can know about it amounts to an educated guess? If that's case then what's the difference between a Jedi council, each with their own interpretation of the will and a council where each has their own opinion about how things should be done? If the will of the Force is ultimately unknowable why do we care about it at all?

[@zkapsh]

@@shilohlee4332 the other problem is how does if there is a will of the of force communicate with a force user, and like you said during dark times it becomes harder to understand.

[@hamishbartholomaeus]

Great rundown!! The issue for ‘light siders’ comes when the will of the force runs counter to the will of the council…. This was Kreya’s issue with the force after having a crack at both sides; she hated the idea of being puppet to the force, but knew that bending it to one’s will was a fool’s errand!

[@artemismoonbow2475]

"That's just a lazy approach to the Light with a few authority issues thrown in for kicks." Ouch, I feel called out.

[@dmmarz167]

No offense, but that's what most people being a Grey jedi is I've also heard it put like this People who want to be Grey jedi lack the discipline to be fully in tune to the light but also lack the determination fully commit to the dark

[@justinenulam]

I think an important point for this discussion is to clearly differentiate between the two sides of the force and the various factions that aligned with them, ie:being against the light aligned Jedi order doesn’t automatically mean anything about your alignment if your disagreement with them is political in nature

[@advena996]

Exactly- Ashoka Tano being a great example of light aligned, but not Jedi. Bariss offee being a great demonstration of a darkside Jedi. (Before she got captured, that is).

[@Acoto]

Saying "the dark side was imbalance" is like saying "hatred is unnatural". A light-sider, even in Luke's time, has to cut off a lot of natural negative emotions to use pure light side abilities, and the act of cutting aspects of yourself out of your nature makes it by definition "imbalanced". The only way to balance that out is with dark siders, who hyper focus on negative emotions in exchange for power.

[@snowcodyrifel7356]

Dark siders themselves create the imbalance. The dark side exists naturally as is, negative emotions and dark side aligned species. But actively spreading the dark side is like a person holding on to their anger and letting it boil and festure. Letting it lead you and that doesn't sound healthy

[@Acoto]

@@snowcodyrifel7356 What I'm getting at is that so long as there are people who want to use the light side of the force to the max, which requires most species to cut out a large part of their nature, there will have to be people that use the dark side to the same extreme if there is to be any "balance". As the Jedi found out, balance doesn't necessarily mean healthier.

[@snowcodyrifel7356]

@@Acoto that still doesn't signify balance. It seems like more a nature of sentient beings than balance

[@mocha9072]

Basically this whole thing is there are too many writers trying to write too much conflicting lore and now it's a hot fucking mess.

[@Acoto]

@@mocha9072 😂

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

That is the best explaination of the force on KZbin... Which if you play a "Grey" Force user in Kights of the Old republic you are literally going back and forth btween selfless and selfish actions and that's it and it's really hard.

[@kennyrodgers4326]

While i dont disagree with what was said in the video i just fine it a bit boring. Being all or nothing is just boring to me and the idea of one side balancing the other is a lot more fun of an idea. Needing to be balanced between the light and dark so your not blinded by the light or drowned in the darkness. Again this is just what i like to think and true or not its the more fun concept to me.

[@edwardmartinezrodriguez8627]

I agree and also find it to be an unhealthy mindset, no? It's best to have a good balance between complete selflessness and complete selfishness. It's not good to suppress and disregard your emotions all the time or allow them to always control you. It's okay if they do sometimes, just as it's good to sometimes put them aside to complete a task you know needs to be done.

[@videocrowsnest5251]

Perhaps the concept of being "drowned in the light" by its very nature tends to stem more from a real life experience with those who claim to be good, but are, for lack of a better word, hypocrites. Perhaps due to the prequel movies (which mind you: I like quite a lot), I notice quite a few folk tend to examine the Jedi order and serving the will of the force from the perspective of "oh look, they are totally like those stuck up religious types down the road", which I won't get more into to avoid muddy waters, but perhaps this creates the illusion of one being able to "drown in the light." Which, if we want to put things into a binary set up (noting in doing so it's a poor idea to at most times to try and think in binaries because very rarely do things come in only pairs with polar opposites) - You could ask could you realistically drown in the light? So that is to say: Become so selfless, altruistic, compassionate, knowledge bound, and loving that you somehow end up becoming evil and blind to the world? I would dare say that sounds rather improbable, because if that's how you were going about your business all your life...you'd have to go through some incredible chain of events to end up blinded and drowned in it. The only way you'd turn sour is by the inclusion of some dark side powers, which is to say: You turned into a hypocrite who was actually up to some dark sidery while acting on the outside like you are good, which brings to mind basically how every single Bane order of two - era Sith lord rolled. It's probably why the Jedi also hung around in large groups because this reduces the chance of hypocritical thinking taking over and you getting a buncha high-and-mighty self-righteous folks running around doing whatever they felt like because they thought it was good...though I guess having a supernatural universe binding power to guide your actions helps get around that particular pitfall. Provided nobody pulls any funny Sith to muck things up.

[@papapalps2415]

You do realize you can't 'balance', as in, put yourself in between, between being a shitheel (I.E., a Dark Side user) and a good person (I.E., a normal Force user), right? Or at least, not in any particularly meaningful way, anyhow. As shocking as this may seem in our wonderful, post modern hellhole of a world, there ARE some absolutes in life here and there. You are functionally stating you find the idea of being compassionate and empathetic and such as being too dull.

[@naseemweathers8358]

At least you understand that that’s just a personal idea some people are like we’re going to canonized our version of Star Wars You can’t canonize your idea into a franchise that’s been around longer than you’ve been born

[@naseemweathers8358]

@@papapalps2415 I don’t mean to bring religion into this but that’s just like saying I can be a Muslim and Christian at the same time you can’t you have to follow either one That’s the same way with the force you can’t use both the light and the dark side at the same time because the more you draw on the Darkside the more you’ll be corrupted by it and honestly I’ve always hated the part about grey Jedi I’m glad you aren’t one of those immature toxic fans I’ve been a Star Wars fan since I was a kid

[@jamespescatore7786]

The Jedii of Tython before the Jedi, or the Sith could be labelled as GREY they believed leaning too far either way was wrong. I wouldn't say they were a failure I would say they were betrayed by both the extreme light siders, and the extreme dark siders. That is where they fell.

[@awesomechrisdude123]

I’d say the Je’dii on Tython weren’t as much wrong as they were unprepared and naive.

[@youssefferchichi1439]

How so? They've been around for 10 thousand years before they fell?

[@OhOh996]

The biggest thing about Grey Jedi is as many believe them to be the very balance between the light and dark. In reality, middle ground isn't the same things as balance but more of a starting point for a force user to choose their own paths, whether light or dark. The Jedi and Sith merely represents them at its core extreme, where as Grey Jedi chooses to be neutral, not doing anything to do any good nor bad to the galaxy. From known Grey Jedi, such as Jolee or Bendu, all first appeared and potrayed understanding the failures of both the Jedi and Sith, yet isolating themselves from any conflict. Seeking no purposes around the galaxy being devastated by the wars between the Jedi and Sith. And thats what Grey Jedi represents: Apathy And as Kreia stated, *"APATHY IS DEATH"*

[@borderlands10]

Kreia was batshit insane and would've created massive amounts of Force Vampires if not destroyed the entire galaxy, I wouldn't be quoting that deranged monster.

[@spacejunk2186]

​@@borderlands10 But she was correct. Nothing she said was wrong. Her only mistake is in assuming her plan would work, which it would not, as you said. It would not make her batshit insane.

[@pokerus1359]

Here’s my take; using light and dark abilities is possible, just not the way you think. Remember electrical judgement? A prime example of a darkside ability used by the light. To me, it’s pretty simple; the darkside is the force polluted by rampant emotion right? While the light is the true force, but is often purged of emotion by the Jedi or any who reject emotion. So why not temper emotion with logic/a blank state of mind? Because the emotions are not rampant, they cannot pollute the light to become the dark. Whether that will grant lightside equivalents to EVERY darkside ability is up to interpretation.

[@EDIAV42]

Kinda depressing (or liberating) from a certain viewpoint. Either be a willing tool for a “greater good” (granted you can see the results in your actions, no matter how small) or “rage against the machine” that is the force and lose your mind (there is enough for everyone’s need but not enough for everyone’s greed) due to the inherent incompatibility of the dark side and living beings. Light side users being “diluted” (their essence and sense of self) as they become better and better tools while dark side users are “concentrated” and can’t make proper connections to others and lose the full range of their emotional capacity. All in all, seems being one of the rare “chosen force users” is a drag if you aspire to the highest levels and expect not to pay a price to your being. Guess the best thing to do is not use the force or be content with your decent mastery as power has a price (you lose who you were either way).

[@michaelhanson8296]

This. Absolutely this. Finally a concise statement about why the force sucks

[@JainaSoloB312]

👏👏👏👏👏 Exactly! This is why my Order doesn't waste time pondering the nebulously-existent Will of a capricious and cruel cosmic being. The Force is just a tool to be used in service to, and protection of, others. The philosophy of the Light at its most basic is correct, we should be selfless and attempt to live in harmony with nature and all sentient beings to the best of our ability. We do not however need to account for the Will of the Force, for if it has a will of its own then it surely doesn't account for ours. Almost all conflict in the galaxy can be traced back to opposing interpretations of the Force. Eliminate that, and things become easier (though obviously not galactic peace or anything).

[@deacon6221]

@@JainaSoloB312 the problem with that is if you don’t give in to the will of the force and accept it then you will not be able to use it. You will have no order. Dark siders may use the force as a tool but they are still slaves to how it warps their mind and amplifies their emotions. Light siders give their free will completely to channel themselves as part of the force. To have true free will one must destroy the force.

[@papapalps2415]

@@deacon6221 No.

[@papapalps2415]

@@JainaSoloB312 So is there any particular reason you have such a braindead, one-sided, pathetically Western centered view of the Force, a VERY blatant and unsubtle Buddhist allegory, to the point you are unironically trying to ascribe to it human-like qualities such as cruelty and such? The Force isn't God.

[@vytrixstudios2184]

In 6 Luke uses force choke on Jabbas guards, I was told 2 different things about why this was. 1. They hint that Luke was gonna turn to the dark side but they scrapped it later. 2. There was a light side of force choke and force lighting.

[@Jester0879]

I always took it its a reference to emotions and passions etc. The Jedi teach that one is to reject all emotion, Love, Hate, anger, affection etc. While the Sith teach one is to give themselves over fully to said emotions and the corruption of the Dark Side it can bring. That a "Grey Jedi" was one who rejected the Jedi's shunning of emotions, that they should be used and not feared, yet also rejecting the siths view of allowing your emotions to control you.

[@tristanengland3874]

Exactly.

[@KingofMars]

Agree

[@captainbirch2.079]

Exactly The Jedi are repression of emotions The Sith are indulgence of emotion True balance is to find the place in between

[@vicentediez452]

The Jedi don't teach to "REJECT" emotion, they teach DETACHMENT, meaning rising above earthly concerns. Saying that the Jedi were against emotions, is with all due respect, straight up dumb. Just look at the "Master and Padawan" relationships. In all of them there's clearly love, master caring for their student and viceversa.

[@damaskholdings9140]

Fool

[@aceandstartv]

Revan? Reborn Revan in 3636 or 3637 BBY seemed to be doing exactly that(Balancing both sides of the force) when he popped up again trying to revive Vitiate into a physical body so he could properly kill him.

[@anthonyvandehey5553]

I have been saying this about the Force for years! This has always bugged me about the fandom

[@Khaliljt]

Except the Je’daii had been successfully using both sides of the force for thousands of years. It was definitely safer to just study the light which is why the Jedi did that, it’s not like it wasn’t possible

[@normietwiceremoved]

THANK YOU! I get so annoyed when people describe the force 'balance' as a balance between light and dark. Lucas never intended this! In my opinion, I always viewed the 'light' side as the force of nature, in balance, life itself, and the jedi respect it and flow with it. But the dark side is sentient beings greed, lust for power. Using ones selfish desires to pervert nature, causing you to be more powerful, sure, but in turn, degrade into chaos. As much as I like Palpatine getting force lightning'd back at him, I always thought that it made more sense that he was a much older individual who kept himself alive through the force, and using the dark side just simply fucks you up.

[@siphonicstorm7191]

I always found that the term Gray Jedi was more of an insult uses against any Force users who sided with both side of the Force. But I always believed the ideals like the so called Gray Jedi were better. The Jedi and Sith had more flaws, so who knows.

[@xinzlo6101]

The Grey Jedi is just apathy. Arguably worse

[@siphonicstorm7191]

@@xinzlo6101 Apathy is Death.

[@bassmantjox1299]

What’s a Jesi

[@xinzlo6101]

@@siphonicstorm7191 Worse than death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds the beasts and insects. Man, I love Kreia

[@feliciastaldotter5168]

Yeah I think thatd what it mostly suppodrd to be Jedi slandering other traditions but realising they cant outright call it dark Like the Voss mystics are called Gray, but they use the force for healing and visions, if anything they follow the will of the force even more then thr jedi, but they arent jedi so must be discredited

[@MrChewie1138]

What about some examples from SWTOR, like Lana Beniko, who is a nice sith with some morals despite even having yellow eyes indicative of dark side corruption, or Darth Marr, whose spirit partnered with master Satele Shan and they were shown to have mutual respect for each other.

[@nathanrolfegriswold150]

It's not canon. Neither is kotor

[@captaindanny8820]

Mutual respect has nothing to do with how they utilize the force. You can be enemies and still have an understanding of each other.

[@feliciastaldotter5168]

Lana is still dark lol. She is nice and flexible but she is unapolgetically sith

[@MrChewie1138]

@@feliciastaldotter5168 that's the point, she was a sith but had some ethics like genuine loyalty to the playable character. Lord Scourge is kinda that way too, although less nice.

[@kirby7294]

​@@MrChewie1138 Scourge abandoned Vitiate (not the Dark Side) because the Emperor wanted to destroy the galaxy that he lived in. He was still very much Sith.

[@gregorywest9220]

Yes yes yes! A thousand times yes! This perfectly explains what I have thought for years! It's also why I get annoyed when people claim that Vader/Anakin brought balance to the force by making the number of Jedi far closer to that of the Sith. The Sith do not stand for balance, only their own desires and destruction.

[@FriendlyDarkwraith]

No, but he did help to bring balance by destroying the corrupt Jedi of the prequel era, who did the will of the republic instead of the will of the Force, and had become complacent, stagnant, arrogant and blind to the threat of the Sith while hypocritically cutting themselves off from anything that could potentially lead to the Dark Side out of fear, including natural things like the desire to fall in love and start a family. Then he finished the job when he threw ol' Sheev down the reactor shaft and died, leaving his son as the last remaining Jedi, free to remake the order as he saw fit, and to use the lessons he learned from his confrontation with his father (at least until Disney fucked everything up). Now, it probably wasn't the Force's original plan for Anakin to fall to the Dark Side, kill a bunch of children, lose all of his limbs and burn to a crisp, but the Jedi are the ones that ultimately brought Order 66 and the fall of the Chosen One upon themselves. The Jedi aren't the Light, nor the Sith the Dark. They're just ways of practicing both aspects of the Force. One is mostly good, unless it loses sight of the will of the Force, while the other is bad in general and must be wiped out because of its ultimate goal to dominate all life in the galaxy.

[@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818]

I think this explanation of the force here is exactly one of the reasons why Grey Jedi are so attractive to people. Because lets face it this interpretation of the force basically says that no matter which side you choose you are nothing more than a pawn to the force to be used and disposed of at its own will. The only ways to use the force are to surrender to it, and become absolute pawns to be used, or to try and dominate it, but in the end, just become a slave to emotions and turned into an unthinking rage and hate monster running on little more than base instinct. Both sides completely rob you of any free will and to a degree personality. This interpretation of the force turns star wars into nothing more than one big cosmic horror story. So yeah I can completely sympathize with why fans reject this interpretation of the force, because it is a cosmic horror. Because it basically pushes the idea of Free will = Bad, Hive mind = Good. Though technically I wouldn't even call the force in this case a Hive mind, but more a slave mind. Because a hive mind at least gives each individual component mind a say, where as a slave mind does not. This interpretation of the force also conflicts with some of the other themes of star wars as well. Themes such as democracy vs Fascism, Freedom vs authoritarianism, individual rights, equal rights, ect ect. And the light side is generally depicted as falling on the side of democracy, freedom, egalitarianism, and sentient rights, where as the Dark side falls on the side of Fascism, Authoritarianism, imperialism, rigid hierarchies, and slavery. So saying that to use the light side, you have to surrender your free will and submit to some higher cosmic authority kinda spits in the face of the other generally anti-authoritarian themes of star wars. I think this also contradicts Yoda's statement about the force in Empire strikes back, where he says the Force is an ally, a friend, a companion. He never said anything about it being the master over you.

[@ignisinfernal1843]

Well take it up with Lucas. He's been clear from the beginning that there isn't a "gray zone" and that balance means the destruction of the Sith.

[@ryanmoore6259]

Except your not. With the light side it's cooperation. By surrendering you achieve symbiosis and understanding.

[@plebiansociety]

It's a little bit easier if you imagine learning the force is like raising a child since the force has a Will. The light side has a balance of encouragement and discipline. The dark side abuses the child. There's no "I balance care and abuse" that is acceptable, no grey area. You are a child abuser or you're not. You can regret an act of abuse, but there is no regular use of abuse that does not make you a child abuser.

[@naseemweathers8358]

What drives me crazy is how some people view the force of the type of God where it’s not it’s mystical energy that a person can use you cannot use or control a god

[@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818]

@@snuurferalangur4357 Fascist are often interested in restoring empires, and the Galactic empire is very much a Fascist state.

[@seanmurphy7011]

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." - Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

[@blah007001]

I always thought that gray jedi were like Qui Gon. Light side jedi who didn't really care what the jedi council thought.

[@Verboten_Joey]

I don't see how that describes Grey Jedi. A willingness to dissent from authority is not a dark trait, just that you're more individualistic.

[@MuShinnen]

@@Verboten_Joey That goes against the Jedi teachings. The whole point of being a Jedi is that it's not about you as an individual. Sith lean towards extreme individualism because it harkons back to something that fuels them their pride. Jedi were taught not to have pride, and individualism would have just made that more difficult.

[@tjmcfadden5137]

That is the term more used in the EU as they are still Jedi serving the light they just prefer to do it in their own way. If they were using dark side techniques and teachings they would be dark Jedi not grey

[@Verboten_Joey]

@@MuShinnen Submission to authority isn't a moral virtue, it's just a necessity for an organization to function well. Leaders are not infallible and are prone to corruption, even the Jedi. That so many of them were followers is part of what made them easy to manipulate by the Sith. Grey suggests closer to dark than the light, but the Grey Jedi listed weren't embracing dark side powers or philosophy, they just were willing to question the order and it's leadership.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

@@MuShinnen Qui-Gon's philosophical disagreements with the council isn't the same as him opposed their authority. That's what a lot of ppl don't understand. He respected its decisions more or less, even if he didn't agree with the logic behind them.

[@ricojes]

"We surrender to the Force's will, but at least we don't get wrinkly scrotum faces." -some padawan of the month, probably

[@weik-2936]

grey jedi don't just go against the basic concepts of the force, they go against Lucas' themes and ideas (important, since "grey jedi" never pops up in any Lucas works)

[@Ray-yv7kn]

When most people think of a Grey Jedi, it's probably this character that uses Force Lightning but is a good guy.

[@taylors1369]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes, and you made a few absolutes in this video.

[@dmmarz167]

Statement an absolute is ne the same as dealing in absolutes

[@MasakanSolaris]

So basically the light side and the dark side is the case of 2 extremes. Absolute selfishness and absolute selflessness

[@JainaSoloB312]

Exactly! A balance of each is important but the Dark Side is inherently extremely selfish so balance isn't possible with it. Hence, Balance in the Force does not involve the Dark Side.

[@MasakanSolaris]

@@JainaSoloB312 But that essentially means the star wars universe is royally screwed as the conflict between the light and dark side is never ending, and normal people will always get caught in the middle

[@dotaky]

THANK YOU. I'm glad someone is finally making a video about this.

[@fdsajfldaskjf]

I think Rebels put it best: “I was here long before, and will be long after. I am the Bendu! The one-“ “In the middle, so you keep saying. Look, I tried to live that way once. Told myself the galaxy would go on with or without me. But when I saw innocents harmed and knew I had the power to *do something about it* I couldn’t just watch it all *burn down around me!* Some things are worth fighting for!”

[@zacktedder4484]

Kinda hard to balance the force while using the dark side when it's basically like crack, meth, and heroine all rolled into one.

[@CD-Freedom]

Kreia was anti-force, not strictly a dark side. While she did go to the dark side at a point in her life and has some dark side tendencies, her stance on the force wasn’t to try and use it while avoiding it’s will like most Sith try to, but to reject the force entirely.

[@tjmcfadden5137]

But she was using the force against it's will to try and destroy the force for her own will. It's not what her end goal was that defines if it's light or dark in the end it's how she went about it which was very dark side. So she was still a dark side user she just didn't want to be a sith anymore

[@RevanX77]

The Je'daii existed studying and using both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force for like 10,000 years. They embraced a bunch of Dark Side concepts that the Jedi would later say were innately corrupting like using the Force with emotion, but they disprove the notion that those things are an unnatural element of the Force because they were never brought down by them. Only when the order started to radicalize into sects which only believed in the Light or Dark did their organization fall apart, because they lost the concept of balance and began to believe that only one side or the other could be legitimate. Later on this same process would repeat itself with the First Schism of the Jedi, where some Jedi wanted to study all aspects of the Force but the Council orthodoxy banned them from doing so. When they left to found their own academy, the Jedi branded them dissenters and armed for war, making conflict inevitable. In both cases it was extremism and the rejection of opposing views which motivated war, but just from the long history of the Je'daii existing in peace we know for a fact that the "Grey" interpretation of the Force is the one that actually produces long-term stability and prosperity.

[@Yddriss]

This is similar to the arrogance of those who claim to know the will of "god." If the force has "will," who's to say that those who fall on the dark side isn't following said will?

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

What I've known is that the Dark Side is seductive and more or less potentially addictive while the Light Side involved opening oneself to the Force and allowing it to guide you. But there's something I wanna explore with you and my fellow fans, Geetsly, a certain kind of concept: What if… what if a Force Sensitive possessed an iron will? How would they interact with either side of the Force? Like, would they have difficulty opening themselves up to the Force? Would things be better and/or easier when using the Dark Side? Would it even be possible to have an iron will as a Force Sensitive? It's an interesting thought.

[@papapalps2415]

I fail to see what you are trying to say here. To use the Dark Side is to, by definition, give into and embrace your hatred and anger and fear and so on. If you are doing that, then you don't possess an iron will, evidently, again, by definition. So I fail to see what your saying. Its a logical contradiction. 'Can I be super angry and emotional, but also calm and collected at the same time?' is the summary, in essence. Or...what, do you mean feel the Dark Side or dip into it? Because that doesn't really require an iron will per say. Everybody feels anger and fear and such, and sometimes it may get the better of them, but if turning away from that required an iron will, well, we'd probably all be pretty fucking boned, eh?

[@teleportedbreadfor3days]

@@papapalps2415 Well let's see. Let's start with the Dark Side of the Force: If a Force Sensitive has an iron will, they may be able to use the Dark Side of the Force and resist its pull. A Jedi could occasionally use Dark Side techniques like Force Lightning by tapping into their emotions but remain faithful to the Force and the Jedi way without succumbing. That's one idea, anyway. I don't think their body would be immune to the decay of using the Dark Side too much, but that doesn't mean they have to, especially if having an iron will involves being resistant to its seduction. But being 'angry but calm' doesn't sound right, at least not to me, if not entirely. To tap into the Dark Side doesn't specifically have to be through anger, hatred and fear. There are other ways to do it, which is, indeed, usually through emotion, but the Sith often tap into those specific negative emotions for power. Other Dark Siders have used different means to tap into the Dark Side of the Force. As for the Light Side, the Jedi's way of using the Force involves the right way it must be used, and that's primarily opening oneself to it and letting it guide you. If a Force Sensitive had an iron will, wouldn't they have difficulty opening themselves up to another will, the will of the Force? As a Jedi, they can still be faithful and compassionate, but still have a couple of struggles on some level. Anakin often had difficulty opening himself up to the Force, but only because he struggled in his own teachings, when the Clone Wars happened and when he was brought into the Jedi Order.

[@jeremygrant6145]

The "fan concept" came from the grey Jedi robes in Kotor 2. Which specifically said the grey order existed and they balanced the light and dark within themselves which allowed them to always act in sync with the force that in inherently light and dark. Thank you for coming to me TEDlore talk

[@Underworlddream]

Abeloth the Bringer if Chaos also know as the "Mother" of the Celestial when she was mortal manage to keep peace between the dark side the Son and lightside the Daughter, even helping him channel his destructive power and even rebuild the world that was destroyed by the sibling conflict. But when she try to be balance by drinking from the dark side "Font if Power" and bathed in the "Pool of Knowledge " to be a godlike being like, the dark side was too powerfull and it end up making her very power and twisted. You can see with her ,that trying to be grey simply leading to her fall.

[@TheWarmachine375]

To be fair, she was growing old and frail. Abeloth doesn't want to die and leave her family and thought by drinking the Font of Power and bathing herself in the Pool of Knowledge, she would be reborn like the Father, Son and Daughter to live forever.

[@Underworlddream]

@@TheWarmachine375 I think it would have work out if she stick to one or atleast not went horribly wrong. Other then the mother, son, and daughter I don't think anyone used either one of them so we don't know if just using one or needing to use both will make you a god.

[@TheWarmachine375]

@@Underworlddream Yeah, Abeloth should have consulted Father about it first

[@QuietStorm4546]

Normally I look at your videos and mostly agree with everything you say, but on this I have to disagree. Their were such things as Grey Jedi in the Star Wars universe. As you stated the Jedaii Order was a perfect example of a Grey Jedi. The Jedaii Order has been widely accepted as cannon. Jedi history mentions the Jedaii Order of Tython. Their existed for thousands of years as Grey Jedi with little to no conflicts within their Ranks. However can the Jedi Order say the same thing? The Jedi Order can't go more than 300 to 500 years without someone from their Ranks falls to the Dark side and becomes the a Dark Jedi or Sith Lord. Since the Ancient Jedaii Order lasted so long with little conflicts within their Ranks thanks to their philosophy of balance in the Force/Grey zone in the Force doesn't that prove that it can work. Remember according to cannon the Jedaii Order splinter only after fending off a great Dark side threat, an outside threat.

[@knghtcmdr]

Basically you can't use evil for good, for it will only destroy you in the long run.

[@JohnSmith-po9cf]

Enslave or be a slave? Black and light thinking I say, even, light and dark thinking. Just work with the force as a partner. Take some give some. No need to corrupt, no need to do as the force wills to feel it's will, unless you suggest Geestly, that the light is also addictive.

[@kirby7294]

To believe in total free will is foolhardy. You are a "slave", in one way or another, to something. Sith are slaves to their emotions, Jedi are slaves to their Council. You are a slave to the laws and rules of your nation. While finding balance through serving the force completely sounds like slavery, is it really? Is the Force a master or the natural order? It's not that you can only serve the force or it punishes you for disobedience, it's that trying to do anything else results in brutal consequences. The consequences of your own actions. Do you intend to do evil simply to spite some cosmic entity because "you won't be enslaved?" Only doing good when convenient, or doing a bit of evil to stick it to the man is a selfish desire and selfishness, in this case, leads you to the dark side.

[@JohnSmith-po9cf]

Bravo, bravo, I just witnessed stellar mental gymnastics. We are not slaves, and I need not choose the lesser evil. Without some selfishness, we'd all be machines, slaves as you say, and nothing would have any worth. Choose the middle path friend, be sane. No amount of cool Jedi powers is worth losing the power of self determination.

[@kirby7294]

@JohnSmith-po9cf there is no middle path. The middle path is a lie that leads people to the evil path. Slaves isn't my word. It's yours. You could live a life of self-determination, but to do what? What else would you do with your self-determination? What else is more satisfying than helping others? What, in a selfish life, is there that isn't hollow or fleeting? Why choose to be evil simply because you won't be "enslaved" out of some misconstrued idea of freedom? Is it so bad to sacrifice yourself for others? Honestly? You can't, even for a moment, look beyond yourself for something more? Selfishness is the height of your ambition? Why willingly choose the lesser evil if a good path exists?

[@JohnSmith-po9cf]

"Only Sith deal in absolutes." Obi-won. Seems you're very stuck in black or white thinking. So blinded by the dark side while being a "jedi" that you missed that you claimed both Jedi and Sith are slaves. Also, what a hostile dark assumption, I don't do good when it's easy, that's the clone wars Jedi I do good when I choose to, and evil when I choose to, regardless of difficulty. It's called not being a slave, or as you put it, not being a Sith or Jedi.

[@kennethsatria6607]

Jeez the concept is so edgy im glad its not canon. I always liked that white sabers are simply sith sabers that were purified by jedi like Ahsoka. Makes em feel like ronin.

[@inquisitorgarza312]

Both the Light Side and Dark Side of the Force are extreme ends of the Force and there was nothing that connected these two force except that they wish to destroy the other, and perhaps there will never be an end to this conflict.

[@advena996]

I don't think that the light side really wants to destroy the darkside as much as it wants to promote life. Preventing the darkside from killing everything is necessary to attain that goal though.

[@clanwaddell5628]

Love having a new video. Watch your stuff every day. Takes me back to the 90s playing Star Wars RPG with my brother as a kid

[@indianajones4321]

Geetsly’s response to the understanding of Grey Jedi: Lies, deception!

[@jtanimeandnerd101]

Hi everyone, I've been a big Star Wars fan for years and my favorite concept of Star Wars has always been the concept of the Grey Jedi. This lead me to creating a fan fiction that I title "Star Wars Grey" and I'm going around a few comment sections to get a few peoples opinion on it, its not a funded project I'm working on, its just a written story. The story takes place years after Rise of Skywalker to the point where Rey would be an elderly woman. This story also takes liberties as it is my way of making Star Wars Legends lore canon such as The Old Republic and KOTOR storylines, Force Unleashed, Masters of Teras Kasi, etc, except with a twist to make it more canon, or at least how I would make it canon. It's about the story of an 18 year old teen named Jayden, who is born Force Sensitive and is unnaturally in tune with both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force, who leaves home to seek vengeance against a mysterious Sith in Black, who murdered his adoptive mother. He would come to meet and join a group of novice grade bounty hunters and join them in an adventure across the galaxy, while also having to defend it from Criminal Syndicates, Imperial Remnants, and Ancient Evils. Jayden's attune for the Light and the Dark Side of the Force allow him to use Force Powers the same way, if not greater, than Starkiller/Galen Marek. Jayden has a teenage punk-like personality which is based on a character called Nero from the Devil May Cry 5 video game, meaning that whether Light or Dark, he will do whatever he can to protect the people he loves within his morals and will not hesitate to seek even greater strength so he can face stronger foes and succeed in protecting them. His most peculiar trait thought is that his child sense of naivety keeps him from being influenced by both the Light and the Dark Side of the Force. This story even takes advantage of a few what ifs such as the fact that in this story Ahsoka Tano is Jayden's adoptive mother, giving off the impression that Ahsoka may still be alive after the Rise of Skywalker, which the movie kind of hinted that she was dead. Ahsoka never brings up the existence of the Force to Jayden out of the fear of him becoming curious enough to fall to the Dark Side, as she sense his unnatural Force Sensitivity the moment she held him in her arms when he was a baby, but she does tell him the stories of the Jedi and Sith as bedtime stories without mentioning the Force. The story isn't George Lucas level, but it is an interesting one. It will involve a new prophecy and multiple chosen ones. This story revolves heavily on the ancient past of the Jedi and Sith and less on the Skywalker Saga. Such examples involve Korriban, Darth Revan, Atris, Satele Shan, Darth Malgus, and much more. This story will also bring in the One Sith faction from Star Wars Legends as one of the many major antagonists. I hope you like this idea for my fan fiction and if you want more details on original and legacy characters, let me know in the reply section.

[@franciscoR.]

Well said, the Will of the Force won’t let it happened.

[@geetslys]

Cheers

[@danieldavis6288]

I was hoping you would answer some more contemporary issues. Like how Kyle Katarn is able to casually sling lightning without falling off the edge. Or why Plo Koon could do similar without fear from his peers.

[@mingthan7028]

Becz George didn't write those stories.

[@allynhopps1875]

In my opinion light cannot exist without darkness, good cannot exist without evil, and Order cannot exist without Chaos, so it is my opinion that Light side of the force couldn't have existed without the dark side because that is the truth of the Natural world.

[@dmmarz167]

That is a false dichotomy, in my opinion. The "light side" of the force is the balance ✨️ good can exist without evil. Because the ture opposition of chaos is peace and peace is the indicator of balance

[@TheLordUrban]

It is pretty clear that the original intention was for the Light Side the be the Force in balance. It was later EU writers and fans that invented the Ying Yang interpretation.

[@DATA-qt3nb]

I understand that there are no actual grey Jedi, but I honestly always kind of used it as an umbrella term for force users/jedi that were not in the order at the time but at some point were. (Of course this doesnt include jedi that fell to the darkside)

[@hank9112]

Thx for making this video! Nice to see someone clarify more about how grey jedi have never existed.

[@joeyhinchman3583]

The light side is the balance of the force the dark side is the chaos of the force. A yen and yang but not a way to bring balance of part light and dark.

[@westleytatro8832]

This could be seen as opposition to the Mortis arc, but not quite. The mortise arc was the opportunity for Anikin to not balance the light and the dark but to keep them both in check per say. Not allowing either one to get out of control(more specifically the Son). You might ask, "how is that not balancing the force?" Its because the Son and the Daughter exist because light and dark exist. You can not have one with out the other. You can't feel relief if you have felt no pain. Which intern means both need to be managed, but that doesn't mean the dark is meant to be used.

[@noneed4me2n7]

I’m sorry but as someone who was deeply entrenched with all the EU stories from comics to books, I was totally ok with the idea of “grey Jedi”. Jacen Solo’s journey entails much of the philosophy of what force users outside of the Jedi dogma practiced. Not just with how they used abilities but in actual everyday living. Now all that said if the “force” is an actual living entity with its own “will” than all bets are off. Balance in all things, yeah. If the force is just that, a mindless energy force certain individuals can access to varying degrees than moral applications really just depend on the individuals philosophy. So a grey Jedi by that definition is totally possible if they’re loosely following the “Jedi” way of doing things. The dark side corruption idea is more just handling way more energy than your body cant handle in an emotional state that just exacerbates said corruption. This is if the force has no “will”. This is what I took from the original EU canon which at times wasn’t consistent, depending on the author.

[@ignisinfernal1843]

Well the films and Lucas' vision comes first. That's the real essence of what Star Wars is.

[@vesalore696]

@@ignisinfernal1843 *Essence of Star Wars* The overriding philosophy in Episode I-and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter-is the balance between good and evil." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999 "In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything." -George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002 "The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays "The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980 "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil-everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

[@emzonik8851]

@@vesalore696 Yeah but he says that force actually is the light and the dark. It's not that it's neutral and religions like jedi or sith split it. And he said himself that the imbalacne happenes when you go to the dark side. So the balance is not 50% light and 50% dark. It's rather letting go pf the dark side and serve the light. The dark side of course must exist but it woeks on a different level, it should not be ised by individuals.

[@vesalore696]

@@emzonik8851 George Lucas contradicts himself and is not the ultimate source when it comes to the info about the force

[@vesalore696]

@@emzonik8851 The light and dark sides of the force exist outside the users who interact with it. This is clearly illustrated by the fact that planets that are largely uninhabited can be strong in one side or the other (see Dagobah or Ahch-To (Luke’s home as of The Last Jedi) for dark side examples). I’ll redefine the dichotomy so that it’s truer to the lore as a whole. The light side is tranquility, zen, peace, and the absence of emotion. Performing incredible feats with the light side of the force can only be achieved by reaching a meditative state of pure emptiness. The dark side, on the other hand, is raw emotion and passion; whether fear, anger, despair, pain, or any other powerful emotion, dark side users employ emotion as their method of interacting with the force. This is why the dark side is so easy to slip into, and why it’s so easy to grow so quickly within the dark side: giving in to emotion is easy. Achieving the kind of inner peace that a light side master employs, on the other hand, requires years of training and self-exploration. If dark siders must definitionally see the force as a tool, then Lord Momin, a Sith who saw his purpose in life as creating in service to the dark side, could never have been so incredibly powerful as to nearly kill Vader. As for the Jedi themselves, their principles are not about “pure selflessness” in the way he talks about; it’s not about what’s good for the galaxy, but about being what they believe to be morally “right”; they blatantly ignore the will of the force and see “balance” as all light and no dark. In addition, they no longer follow the will of the force itself anymore, and have long since become the enforcement arm of the galactic senate. The teachings of the Jedi try to say otherwise, but time and time again they illustrate that they’re really only in it for their team. This has resulted in the Jedi becoming blind to the will of the force by the time of the prequels, with Qui-Gon being the only remaining Jedi who still pays it heed and can feel its flow.

[@boyankovachev7982]

Soo, yea. That's one of the main reasons why I really find it funny that some fans say that Disney destroyed Star Wars with purely black and white characters. Like, the whole idea is black and white. Also, when they did try to make a character a real human being most of the fandom rejected it. I'm taking about Luke in TLJ. Like, I hated TFA, cuz it was a retread of A New Hope, and exactly because of this loved The Last Jedi. It was new, it was fresh, it made the characters realistic. Like, Luke is a hero, okay, but he still feels bad about some things. He sees his mistakes and is afraid of them. I was really sad when Ryan Johnson's ideas were just kinda removed from the franchise in TROS. I really would have loved to see Kylo as the Supreme Leader, Rey as just being a random character who could get things in a new way, without having to rely heavily on the past. And I really don't understand why so many people hated TLJ, because it did things in a new way and tried to change the status quo, and then complained how the next movie was again a retread of a movie from the original trilogy. I just wanted to see original ideas and not just the same old same old, but I guess the people who said they wanted the same just wanted some nostalgia in order to feel good and as they are young again. And that's extremely sad, but who cares about new ideas when we can just make the same trilogy over and over again. If only fans really wanted something different than nostalgia, I bet we could have had some really great Star Wars movies. I know that's a really controversial opinion, but if you disagree, just tell my why I'm wrong. Or say that I know nothing and I just don't understand it. It really doesn't matter, it's too late to matter. One love ❤️

[@Matthew-fj6jh]

Sorry, but some of what you said simply isn't true. The Will of the Force isn't in favour of the Light Side, not by any means. Here is an example: The entire fall of Anakin Skywalker and the eradication of the Jedi Order during that time period was the Will of the Force. It was only through the Will of the Force that Anakin received visions of Padme dying, which in turn led him to the Dark Side and allowed the purge of the Jedi. The reason why this happened, was because the Force was incredibly out-balanced by the Light Side. Lightsiders were ruling the Galaxy, where as the Sith were very few in numbers. By the time Order 66 was finished, it was MUCH more balanced, with few Jedi remaining but also few Sith. Balance. The Jedi simply misinterpreted the prophecy, and assumed bringing 'balance' to the Force meant the elimination of the Dark Side, but that is incorrect. The Force IS much like yin-yang, and a Grey Jedi doesn't mean they have to use both Dark Side and Light Side powers in balance, it simply means to exist in a state of total selflessness, which the Sith and Jedi were not. They were both trying to dominate the Galaxy.

[@justfantastic2877]

Amazing, every word of what you just said is wrong. Your claim that the fall of the Jedi and Anakin was the will of the force is completely baseless. The Jedi fell because Sidious destroyed them, and Anakin fell because he was overcome with fear. This is obviously not the will of the force, but the will of of two selfish individuals. No part of galactic civil war that kills trillions, or evil Sith empire suggest anything remotely close to "balance". The mere existence of many Jedi does not directly make the galaxy closer to the light side, this isn't algebra 1 with force sensitives. Third the Jedi DIDN'T misinterpret the prophecy George Lucas has explicitly stated that "the prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the force and destroy the sith". And Anakin did restore balance to the force by destroying the Sith when he killed both himself and Sidious on the 2nd death star. I don't even know where you got the idea that the Jedi were trying to dominate the galaxy, that's pretty moronic.

[@VaderTheWhite]

This video earned you a subscribe from me as you perfectly shot down this absurd idea that even out-of-universe definitive sources in Legends said was foolish at best. Also, you gave the best description of the differences between the Light and the Dark and I'll likely just use your video as a rebuttal in the future.

[@feliciastaldotter5168]

There are a few things that would imply thst conception of "gray" tbh, like post kotor Revan content But those are also usually terrible and to me only exist to please the type of fan who wants to use dark powers bc they look cool

[@VaderTheWhite]

@@feliciastaldotter5168 pretty much

[@knightbender2]

@@VaderTheWhite or you and the narrator are grossly misinterpreting the force. Show this video as a rebuttal to an actual lore debate and you would get laughed at. This is elementary to REAL FANS not some Disney bootlickers. The force is yin and yang. George Lucas used Taoism and Buddhism as inspiration. Both sides are valid, because they are both parts of the whole. Grey jedi are just force-users that understand the inherent nature of the force and have lost their conditioning in either the dark or light.

[@VaderTheWhite]

@@knightbender2 LUCAS HIMSELF SAID THE LIGHT SIDE IS THE FORCE AND THE DARK SIDE IS A CORRUPTION OF IT.

[@knightbender2]

@@VaderTheWhite EVIDENCE OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN

[@gearedgiratina2136]

So we’re just gunna ignore the Mortis arc where the father explicitly stated that balance is keeping the influence of light and dark in equal measure with his children being the light and dark respectively while he was the one who kept the balance. And don’t give me that “but Lucas said blah blah blah”. That was before the Mortis arc and now we also have the Bendu. The father and Bendu show different forms of neutrality Bendu’s negative neutrality of uninvolvement and the father’s positive neutrality of compromise. Can we stop trying to discredit the idea of grey Jedi just because the Jedi were meant to be the good guys. They failed at their job, Luke should have made something similar yet different like in the EU with Kyle explaining that there is no light or dark just the Force and how it’s used. The grey Jedi don’t exist argument is getting absurdly tired and boring, especially when their is more evidence to contrary now as the years went on than there ever was before. It’s stupid. You like or dislike the concept, but it’s in the universe so that just how it is.

[@jakethesnake3513]

These force users you are mentioning are not a normal mortal being, they're far more complex than that. Evidence shows that NO mortal being has even been close to a "grey jedi".

[@gearedgiratina2136]

@@jakethesnake3513 revan and Kyle katarn just to name a few. Hell even Luke did it in the EU and no one had a problem with it. Or what about Starkiller. These just the more popular one but if need be I can keep going. I think the issue is people think that to be a grey Jedi or someone who uses both sides of the force you adhere to both Sith and Jedi teachings but since they are opposing view points of the force it would not work so those who are in the middle in terms of using the force can’t exist or would be weaker than others. Those who think that way would be right but also wrong. While I’ll give you that the father is an extraordinary, near godly being, the Bendu is more akin to Yoda. Just a wise old hermit who lives in the middle of nowhere. But back to my main point, there are other views of the force that users can pull from besides Sith or Jedi teachings. It’s about what works for the individual and what’s best for them to master their abilities. The thing people forget is that even if order 66 wasn’t enacted, the Jedi would have fallen anyway because they abandoned the will of the force and only adhered to their dogmatic doctrines which stagnated the growth of the order’s knowledge of the force and all it aspects, not just the ones they deemed right or in accordance to doctrine. Yoda learned this lesson during his training to become a force ghost but by then it was too late to save the order because of the war and Palpatine’s meddling. Nothing is ever black or white, it’s shades of grey. If even the force has a will must it too not also have selfishness and a dark side also since all force users are meant to be the will of the force incarcerated. It’s about self control. And their are more than one way to gain self control and it may even vary between person to person.

[@advena996]

@@gearedgiratina2136 in the mortis arc, the father literally laments his son's "fall to the dark side", when things were balanced, he wasn't a dark side being. Revan has been portrayed so many different ways by different writers that his character is contradictory on its face, and thus not a good example. You can either be the servant to, or the master of the force. You might occasionally switch relationships, but that's not grey, that's just falling one way or the other.

[@advena996]

@@gearedgiratina2136 and just because the force has a will, doesn't mean it has to have selfish moments. It might be entirely unselfish, working toward life.

[@gearedgiratina2136]

@@advena996 To fall means to succumb to the temptation or lose one’s self control when their was once either control/mastery or ignorance of its existence. In the Son’s case it was the former as he had complete control of the dark side of the force until the temptation of control over the chosen on, anakin, was brought into play. The Father laments His son’s lack of self control. And if you think the Force doesn’t have selfishness you might want to talk to Master Kreia on that ‘cause she might tell you otherwise.

[@idknemore525]

Seems like 'light" and "dark" are horribly misleading misnomers. But I guess the unselfish and selfish sides of the force don't roll off the tongue.

[@charleskeenum5372]

So, my take on this may be a bit controversial and can be broken into three parts. The first part of this is that we only really see such interpretations of "The Force" through the lens of the Jedi or Sith dichotomy which makes me believe in it being propaganda. This view I also share on many other aspects of the Star Wars universe as the story telling is told through the voice or lens of the supposed "good guys" and having a narrative that focused on good guy story telling can warp the perspectives of the readers. Before I go off on a wild tangent let's get back to the force. As seen through other materials and the Clone wars tv show there are other force using traditions such as the Night Sisters, but many of those have been touched or polluted by Jedi/Sith; like the aforementioned Night Sisters. This is a pretty unrealistic problem that exists as the universe is incredibly old and yet those two superpowers are always at the center of it and when I say unrealistic, I mean that there aren't differing denominations of Jedi/Sith or even very separate force wielding orders as there should be tons, at least one order or way of thinking per planet or system, at the very least polluted by the other two superpowers. The second part I have issue with is the fact that the force is this unknowable, on a human scale, sentience or as it's described in the video "will". The fact that you "open yourself up" to this Will is concerning to say the least and that it needs you to abandon your humanity to effectively become a "vessel" makes it sound like it wants to use you as a droid or a puppet. All of that is from the "light side" perspective of things and as it stands is pretty concerning itself. From the "Dark Side" perspective the narrative just seems off to me, I'm not saying wrong here and don't mean to contradict canon, but bear with me. In a cut scene where Anakin and Ahsoka visit the celestials the dark side representative is contacted by a disembodied voice of the dark side. Also, the dark side users are said to manipulate the force by strong and selfish emotions to will the force in perverse ways, but wouldn't "The Force" just cut connections with them instead as it has a will of its own? What if there is a dark side of the force that embodies the negative aspects of character, in being that when a person becomes one with the force their positive and negative aspects of character aren't lost? This makes sense, to me at least, because light siders must practice sickening to downright evil forms of self-sacrifice and indoctrination for the sake of the light side with dark siders having to channel negative emotions and actions to the extreme to become stronger in the dark side. If you don't believe me then take a serious look at the Jedi counsel's practices of taking very young children and their methods of handling situations in the case of Ahsoka. Which brings me to my third point: The jedi order's teachings. There are other youtubers who cover this better but to briefly summarize what I mean, the jedi order makes it so that Dark Siders (most commonly referred to as Sith) will always spring up due to their abandonment of key factors that define a person such as emotion or attachment; in other words, they would have you abandon what it is to be human. This is shown to great effect during the clone wars t.v. show and movies where they tell Anakin/Ahsoka basically "oops our fault" or to "toughen up" this is also shown with Bariss Offee and how she witnessed the atrocities of the Jedi order in its quest to win the war. The order didn't offer much needed counseling in preventing basically PTSD or other lesser forms of psychological trauma. Another example, which would've prevented Anakin from going deeper into the dark side, is why didn't the jedi counsel see fit to purchase his mother? Or why did they allow children soldiers (yes it was clearly shown in the clone wars show)? There are several other issues such as the willingness to utilize slaves to fight, and the killing of several civilians, to just acting as war generals without proper training or knowledge of said station leading to countless senseless deaths. These acts demonstrate that the Jedi have no moral center in the slightest and as the galaxy's peacekeepers are deeply concerning, especially if you consider how they handled other situations before the clone wars and realize they answered to no organization or power. If you add to the fact that no other group could handle them if they got out of hand, then you could see they were the shadow power behind the throne if they did something the republic would have to accept it even if it were a detriment to the Republic. They could wipe out or cause galactic instability with their only excuse being "I thought I saw a Sith." Before someone says that didn't happen, I'd like to point out that it in fact did with the start of the Clone wars because they knew of this shadowy Sith called Sideous. They were wanting to stay out of the war until it came to light that there was a Sith involved and used that as justification for their actions. The Jedi order, for all its bluster and good guy show are evil as an organization that inevitably fails innumerable times to maintain the ideals set upon them all for the sake of "maintaining balance" when they themselves are the cause for disturbances. Planets without the touch of the Jedi who happen to have force sensitives are fine before the jedi arrive, at least for the few cases I've seen, and afterwards are given an edict of convert or die and then be converted. I don't know, maybe I'm totally off base here, but I don't see the quintessential good guys, not just Jedi but other factions being depicted as good as well, as being all that good.

[@ryanmoore6259]

you're wrong. The Jedi definition of attachment is exxagreated desire not to be separated from others. Love is wanting others to be happy. selfless love where you pit the other above you is permissible. The Jedi didn't have a choice but to accept the clones and they didn't believe sidious existed until late in the wars.

[@papapalps2415]

I imagine most of this has to do with you being a drooling m0r0n. Being confused is understandable, in that case, really. In any case, feel free to prove....all of this, actually. Prove every single farcical, asisne shit you just claimed. Don't just wave your hand at TCW or whatever the fuck. Prove the Jedi are child abductors. Prove they indoctrinate kids. Prove they were particularly willing or happy with the clones situation. You can also go ahead and try to explain why letting the Force guide your actions is so deeply, totes legit concerning to you, and how that even vaguely makes you a droid or drone. And so on, and so forth. Hint; you can't. You can't prove virtually any of this fucking garbage if you are being even vaguely honest with yourself.

[@charleskeenum5372]

@@ryanmoore6259 Thank you for responding I appreciate your input. However, I mention attachment once in my three paragraphs and don't really expound upon it nor do I talk about the jedi having to accept the clones. I only speak about the jedi willingly accepting the role as generals over said clone army. To your points, I can't really speak on what their methods or motivations were on the separation between love and attachment and I cannot think of a specific example of them defining love as you do. While I can give you the Greek interpretation of love, with seven different forms of love, it would just be speculation as to what the Jedi saw love as and is beyond the scope of my arguments. I do agree that the Jedi and the Republic didn't have a choice but to accept the clones, but that was out of necessity, and I believe they could have given the role of general to the local militias of Coruscant instead or other more capable individuals and at least attempted to continue their role of advisors and peacekeepers, but again that is wishful thinking on my part and speculation if they even could have. I could be wrong about them believing Sidious was a player in the war, but they did see Dooku as Sith and my argument about their scorched earth tactics about Sith still stand.

[@charleskeenum5372]

@Geetsly please do correct me if I'm wrong on either my original posts or my replies as you are the resident expert of the channel. I'm willing to be wrong and corrected.

[@gearedgiratina2136]

@@papapalps2415 the fact that you tell him to prove it be you can’t you the the media in which he makes reference to and primary source of current Star Wars media make it seem like someone else the “drooling m0r0n” here, especially when they’re were episodes that addressed each of these topics in clone wars show. To me it just sounds like you don’t like the clone wars show because it paints the order in grey-er light than what you’re used to and like seeing the Jedi be potentially unconsciously malicious.

[@Frankthegb]

This is my first time watching your videos and I really appreciate that OG Battlefront-style intro

[@laughingkoala8623]

My only disagreement with this video is the description of the Je'daii. They lived on Tython for generations in balance of the light side and the dark (Tython was be thrown out of balance when they weren't). It was only after the Rakatan empire came and through everything out of balance that the schism happened and the opposing Ideologies appeared.

[@TheJedaiHero9000]

Have an AWESOME Happy New Year, Geetsly's Really been enjoying watching your content here this year and looking forward towards more in 2022

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

I don't think it's accurate to say the light is the force in balance, if you look at the teachings of the ancient Je'daii. If a practitioner drifted to far to the light or dark, they had to go to the appropriate moon to regain balance. Force users practiced walking the line between the light and dark. Arguably the belief that the light is the force in balance is at the root of the fall of the Jedi; it's at the root of how the Jedi caused the schism. It's behind the Jedi genocide of the Sith race. While you may not agree, you can't just wave it away.

[@nateb7638]

And the Je'daii collapsed from being corrupted by means such as the Force Saber, a predecessor of the protosaber that was an inherently dark side artifact. The need for the moon practice is a testament to how off they were. It was actually Lucas' authorial intent for the light to be the balance state. I think more accurate terms are Light=Harmony, Dark=Imposition. Furthermore the Jedi were blinded to Sidious plan due to a number of factors including the choice by ancient Jedi to build the Corruscant temple on top of a nexus of the dark side, thinking they could contain it. Instead as darksiders grew in power and the Clone Wars stirred up negative emotions around the galaxy the Nexus in turn grew in power. This was the specific source of the darkness clouding Yoda's vision he mentioned in Attack of the Clones. This combined with the Jedi having become more in line with the goals of the core worlds rather than the ways of the Light made them vulnerable to Palpatine's strike.

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

@@nateb7638 To claim that the need for rebalancing proves your point, is to assume the truth of your point. Alteratively, the Je'daii could have realized that because we're human, we can't maintain balance. The folly that thinks we can stay perfectly balanced in the light side of the force is the weakness that ultimately leads to failure. The belief that you can pursue power and control through the dark side of the force is the same folly. External balancing helps calibrate us. I don't know if this is what a Grey Jedi is supposed to be, but if it is, it wouldn't be unreasonable. The Jedi collapse preceeded Sidious, by a lot. He delivered the coup de grace, he's not why they failed, or why they completely missed the Sith plan. You could argue that their belief that the light represented harmony and balance is the original sin that leads to their downfall. It blinded them to their own moral failings. Because they were champions of the light, their actions must be good. This lead to a chain of moral compromises that go at least as far back as the genocide of the sith, and culminated in their many failings with Anakan. The first great schism planted the seeds of destruction in both Jedi and Sith. Great video and nice conversation!

[@JainaSoloB312]

@@nateb7638 Exactly👍 The Dark Side is poisonous to the Light, they can't be balanced. All that can be done is to keep the Dark at bay as much as possible, though it can never be destroyed.

[@papapalps2415]

@@barnettmcgowan8978 Gray Jedi m0r0ns citing the failure of an organization that is the Je'daii, a group that feel apart summarily at the first real conflict it had, and ultimately achieved nothing of value or worth, whose sole significance is to said fanboys who, frankly, are just regurgitating whatever you have been told and likely can't cite the sources (hint, it's a shitty, early 2000s comic series no one cares about. Who woulda thunk?) of said group even if asked...well, suffice to say, it never ceases to make me smile. Fucking please. Regardless, that bit of ineptitude aside...well, really, not much else to say here. The Light, as in, kindness, empathy, forgiveness, and so on, being dominant is, factually, the Force being balance, and thus, the optimal state of the galaxy and civilization. What a fucking shocker. The fact you think this is disputable is hilarious. Also, lol. 'Sith genocide'. I'm far too lazy to even bother: cough up your sources. While your at it, you can go ahead and explain what the fuck 'externally balancing yourself' is supposed to mean. So whenever you start feeling a little bit TOO heroic and nice, you should...uh, go skulk in a corner and get angry? Is that how it works? News to me. Who knew?

[@barnettmcgowan8978]

@@papapalps2415 If you don't even know about the Sith genocide, then you should probably drop the condescending attitude, and study more lore before so confidently telling people that they are wrong. Earn your place in the conversation first.

[@ProducerX21]

I like the cliff analogy. It’s like force wielders that try to stay in the middle are walking on a tightrope. It’s very hard to not fall to one side or the other

[@escrivaodegalarran1098]

What about the Je'dai or whatever they are called. Thay had some shit about going too much to ashla or bogan and meditating on the other side. Okay, I finished the video, so I guess I understand. Still, I don't think there can't be a gray zone to the light side at least, makes no sense that personal goals lead to corruption to me.

[@CoolMyron]

And then some of there people coming started to crave the dark (like always) and there people were destroyed. Can't be done

[@GeneralGrievous-1138]

They said that, but were wrong about it, which is why they reformed into the Jedi.

[@BBMando69]

Some went to strong into the light and others into the dark then the light won.

[@InvinciDon]

I had always assumed Grey Jedi were force users who genuinely followed their own way, using neither dark or light side of the force

[@dragonborn7955]

Grey Jedi was never a thing and I think George Lucas never acknowledged nor liked the concept of a Grey Jedi. Plus Disney will NEVER acknowledge it.

[@Momy69420]

Most of what people think a gray jedi is describes what the jeda’ii order was

[@geminitrash1]

This assessment is correct under Disney's starwars, but before Disney rebooted the series and retconned everything there were many canon characters that conflicted with Disney's ideology. We had a Sith Lord who never killed anyone and and died amongst friends cherished as a good man, and a Luke Skywalker who used Dark Side abilities while still firmly being rooted in the light. In the current canon not only will the Dark Side have a pull on force users, but switching sides will actually nerf you.

[@karnowo]

See, this is what I thought. I swore back when I was watching starwars lore stuff years ago everyone talked about Luke using dark side powers etc. Glad to know I'm not crazy. I feel sorry for the star wars' fanbase, anything new falls under canon, but canon is just a less interesting universe.

[@shamrock141]

Not really, this is how the force was made under Lucas, this is what is was from day one

[@geminitrash1]

@@shamrock141 Nahh under Lucas the Dark Side didn't nerf Light Side users or vice-versa. The books aren't canon anymore, but the episode III novel outlines how Anakin had been gaining the edge in his fight against Dooku because he'd been pulling strength from the DarkSide which in current canon would've meant Anakin was throwing the duel. Any mention of Anakin's anger by Dooku is now just considered a taunt, and the Dark Side boost Anakin originally had in Lucas Canon is now retconned.

[@Tehz1359]

@@geminitrash1 This is why I really don't give a damn about the canon anymore, and I have no clue why anyone still does. Pre Disney star wars and legends is just way more interesting. And this new conception of the force doesn't make any sense to me.

[@ryanmoore6259]

It's canon under Lucas. Legends canon was blatantly inaccurate.

[@TheBronzeDog]

My preferred method of going Gray Jedi is to drop the Jedi part and pick up a blaster. The Force has too much baggage for me, even if I consistently play light side characters.

[@Ilurblur]

Damn the force sounds like an annoying prick that wants it's way every time. No wonder Kreia tried to kill it

[@theoverlord9944]

agreed

[@kirby7294]

Even if its way is best?

[@charleswoodward5026]

I see the Light and Dark side are within the Force users themselves and the Force is just the Force. In legends the Jedaii talk about balance within oneself.

[@knightbender2]

you basically summed up the correct interpretation. This narrator doesn't know starwars.

[@Underworlddream]

Feel like it was a interesting fan idea but when people try to make it Canon most of the time they sort drop the ball on it and end up ruining it.

[@moskovthefirst2227]

What about the original jeda'ii? They balanced between the two sides. I'm not saying that they're Grey jedi obviously but to say that the lightside is the balanced side of the force and that the dark side is extreme chaos is a lie

[@s0ph053]

I don't like the idea that force seems to promote definitive good and evil when in all reality there are a thousand shades of grey.

[@TheBerchie]

"Striving to become a gray Jedi is a path to the Dark Side; compromise leads to undisciplined, undisciplined leads to ambition, ambition.... leads to corruption....." - Yoda