Why GT Goku vs Goku Black Isn't Close!

[@osajunior6356]

I agree with everything, but Rose isn't his version of SSJ, it's his version of SSB/SSGSS. In the manga, we see Black use SSJ!

[@Top_E_Official]

That's manga only.

[@good8619]

​@@Top_E_OfficialYeah if Rosé was actually just a variant Blue, show Black would be beyond overpowered cuz even in Base he was fucking up Blue Vegeta at one point.

[@noahlutzke9456]

In the anime it’s his version of ssj and in the manga it’s his version of ssb. It’s kind of weird. And it kind of makes sense. If base goku black was able to somewhat keep up with ssb, there is no way that goku and vegeta would’ve been able to compete against goku black with a ssb multiplier if that makes sense. Also in dragon ball heroes he can use ssr2 and 3, so I doubt it’s his version of ssb because I guarantee you that dragon Ball heroes would have made ssb2 and 3 if they could.

[@BrandonScott-mi5pz]

EXCELLENT WORK. LONK'S TAKES DRAGON BALL SUPER VS DRAGON BALL GT ISN'T CLOSE

[@1dfr33]

No matter which continuity you look at it's equivalent to his ssb. As ssb is just god ki infused ssj. Goku black naturally has god ki and mentions that when using rose. He literally just has to turn off the god ki during the transformation for it to be ssj.

[@bigyoshi5170]

“This is getting out of hand, now there are two monkeys!” -Lord Freezer

[@JayJohnson-ls3eq]

Goku Black: What a Siner"

[@HammerDownFellas]

@@JayJohnson-ls3eqCould’ve at least spelt sinner correctly 💀💀

[@saltysnowboi]

@@HammerDownFellasdon’t hate on his spelling, hate on the somehow failed use of quotation marks 💀

[@LoveDaWard]

.do not argue with dragon ball fans, they can't reaD

[@lucasljs1545]

@@saltysnowboi he failed everything on that comment.

[@TyTheLighthouseGuy]

Ah, but you forget: I LIKE SSJ4 Goku way more, which means that he's far stronger than Black is.

[@WeatherxCalipha]

I like him more and he's stronger than Black. Two seperate things can be true at the same time without there being a corellation.

[@Hypocrite_Void]

​@@WeatherxCaliphatheres also this thing called having fun.

[@IdiotSandwich-yp2ke]

ah yes but you forget: i like goku BLACK more that gt gokus weirdly tan self so he is stronger

[@jetrothebadomen9483]

Goku Black: We can go feat for feat Ssj 4 Goku: F*ck that we can go fan for fan

[@humanman9920]

Ssj4 Goku : Ya can only go casual to casual brother feats themselves don't go in ur favour.

[@Neeyaw]

Fr though GT Goku could go feat for feat with this black ass Goku

[@Ga_mma1]

@@Neeyawbro?? Please word that better 😭

[@mahminz7966]

@@Neeyawbro WHAT

[@Mo-.]

Fr GT Goku even after the 100 years timeskip and even SSj4 Gogeta is only carried by fans alone. The fans glaze them so much but in terms of actual feats Goku Black slams

[@PapaJ608]

0:02 “you got kid goku” proceeds to show Goten

[@lonkstakes]

Whoosh

[@PapaJ608]

@@lonkstakes ima touch you

[@shirosatsuma4946]

You're the stupid Goku

[@Babatunde_69420]

​@@lonkstakes🤡

[@Thatguy072]

Whoosh

[@willisassounga1963]

Super Saiyan 4 is the dopest design ever so he washes Goku Black 🗣️🗣️🗣️ #NoBias

[@JesterTheLesser]

DISCLAIMER for the people who can't take a joke. THIS COMMENT IS A JOKE. Thanks for your time.

[@TheGrimReaper19]

GRR NOWI I AM SO OFFENDED DYPU ARE SO WRONG GOKU BLAKC STOMPS SUPER SIAYAN 4 YOU ARE SULER OMEGA BIAS MR YPU SUCK!!!!!!!!

[@aviemoreno9721]

This is how I think but unironically

[@willisassounga1963]

@@JesterTheLesser yeah, definitely a joke 🌚...

[@willisassounga1963]

@@aviemoreno9721 we need to speak our truth brudda, super saiyan 4 agenda will never die‼

[@dsm2417]

The gt fanboys will somehow say Gogeta ss4 is even stronger than Beerus cuz he’s so cool

[@ye87]

Every day

[@michaelfr6290]

monkeygeta is nothing without games

[@ConnorBLYSTONE]

I think it’s because people who say that likely grew up with the budokai or tenkaichi games and thought that unleashing the Big Bang Kamehameha was the coolest thing they could do

[@sseempire8705]

Well, he is cool

[@seawarrior954]

I think we need to be honest, do you really think Beerus can move so fast omega couldn’t see him? Only SSJ4 Gogeta can bro trust 🤡

[@djthefunny]

Not the ukog 💀

[@VeggiePun]

7:00 it isnt just his NORMAL Super saiyan. Because Zamasu has Devine Ki its His own version it SSJB. you literally show SSJ Black from the manga in the background at some point wtf 😂

[@mauricejohnson2351]

It’s not its own version of ssjb it’s literally just his version of ssj in hero’s he can go rose 2 and 3. Him having divine ki in the form doesn’t mean it’s ssjb

[@fidelgames]

@@mauricejohnson2351 In the manga Goku Black is able to use regular ssj.

[@mauricejohnson2351]

@@fidelgames ik

[@Ninjaguy3128]

Manga and anime are two separate continuities. In the manga, it is stated that Rosè is similar to Blue by Zamasu. However for the anime, it is stated by outside sources that Rosè is a twisted version of Super Saiyan. So in the anime, Rosè is Super Saiyan, and in the manga Rosè is Blue.

[@a_silent_plume]

Manga and anime are different, in the manga ssjr is treated as another version of ssjb (mind you ssjb is also just a version of ssj) while in the anime ssjr is treated as another version of regular ssj, it makes total sense this way because in no way goku black can use a version of ssjb eithout being able to use regular ssj ._. @fidelgames

[@gavinguajardo3432]

Getting the feeling most people here haven’t seen GT

[@lelouchvibritannia1662]

People tend to forgot that in Dragon ball, what's new is always the strongest... Heck Dragon Ball super reached Omega shenron levels of powers and feats at the very first arc when he fought beerus

[@humanman9920]

And Saiyan saga Vegeta already reached the level of power characters from ToP had , as Frieza threatened GoD Toppo with a planetary attack 😂

[@lelouchvibritannia1662]

@@humanman9920 threaten toppo? The attack that toppo deleted using a finger nail worth of hakai? Yeah and let's also ignore that freeza in Top is stronger than namek saga freeza, Can't believe I even have to say that, shows how delusional gt fans really is LMAO

[@diamonshade7484]

Yeah facts

[@diamonshade7484]

​@@lelouchvibritannia1662he had to weaken to not kill someone tho

[@humanman9920]

​@@lelouchvibritannia1662 " Frieza in Top is stronger than Namek " no he's not according to ur own logic . So where's ur reason about why Frieza even thinks a planetary attack has a chance against Toppo ? I only see whining about why it should be false lmao . And ur poor little Frieza is actually trying there , while Omega shenron did his thing by just standing there using the weakest dragon's attack . Sugoroku space scaling simply debunks this delusional cap dbs glazers claim for Omega , after the fact that there is no indication of that being anywhere near his strongest attack but instead the opposite , when characters in db have actually had strongest attack just stated to have lower levels of power than they actually have . So mastered ssj Goku is capped at planetary for his kamehameha only being stated capable of that much, and that makes weaker characters than him below planetary ? That's what u're saying . Cope

[@Lego_vegeta]

Shhh we do not speak of the movie that shall Not be named

[@elijahmcelroy]

I only just recently started watching shameless and was trying to figure out why I hated the “Steve” character so much without an actual reason. I can’t believe I had erased that film from my mind and the feelings remained. Weird

[@RathalosLARP]

You can call Voldemort by its name and its totally fine. But NEVER talk about the other "thing" 😂

[@bigpoggers6507]

As a certified GT glazer, come on man... throw me a bone... please...

[@bigpoggers6507]

actually throw me the whole skeleton...

[@2-bit567]

Gogeta is still pretty busted

[@shahar282]

uhh your gogeta is nice

[@humanman9920]

Bro.. if that's not sarcasm , at least watch the series in sub , this video is cap times 100 . Ignoring info to downplaying just for the sake of downplaying with the logic " oh come on it just means what i say it does with no basis whatsoever and sometimes i'm gonna be *super nice* by admitting a fraction of the facts " , this has it all 😂 And i mean , wouldn't expect any less from the person who really tried to push dbz Vegito against GT Ssj4 once ain't no way 💀

[@Ghost-Zilla12]

@bigpoggers6507 I'll throw you more than a bone. I'll throw you a fact. Super baby threw a revenge deathball at gt goku, and Kibito Kai saved him with Kai kai but then dropped him. The death ball he threw warped the fabric and space time of the infinite realm between dimensions it violently shook it to the point Kibito Kai dropped Goku it even changed the color of how it looked and it caught kibito kai using kai kai which can instantly take hom to places like Zeno's palace instantly which is outside the universe. This feat from Super Baby is relative or slightly above ui sign goku shaking the null realm, and this is before baby reached his strongest form.

[@user-wi9se5ll3j]

8:47 I have never seen a GT fan mention this.

[@DragonBallsolosyourverse]

Yea same here.

[@IGoByKit]

I've never seen ANYONE make that argument

[@Chckster]

@@user-wi9se5ll3j seventh moon on comicvine

[@chakrafuji458]

Yeah nobody has said that

[@enzomercier2789]

It kind of makes sense though. Super says a couple of times that fusion is NOT a multiplication of the two parts, but rather the sum of them and THEN multiply said sum, in which case, God Goku couldn't be stronger than Super Vegito. Once again, it's a case of Super being inconsistent as hell, making both sides arguable, and the reason why it's pointless trying to power scale its characters.

[@sionguy1990]

i love how nobody ever checked the official multiplier of ssj4

[@kakashi6294]

@sionguy1990 I love gt but ssj4 doesn't have a accurate official multiplier

[@crismon0726]

it doesnt have a confirmed multiplier but since its great ape x ssj i guess its 500x that or we could add another zero to make it 5000x it sounds better because goku was able to beat Baby Vegeta

[@supersaiyanprimalbroly31]

This video should have honestly been super saiyan 4 gogeta , versus goku, black

[@kuru-yami9416]

Gogeta would one tap him tho.

[@TheDragon-v7d]

@@kuru-yami9416how

[@Stopscrolling.P]

​@@kuru-yami9416i mean tbh idk but unless he is Atleast above multiversal then he loses (since BOG Goku is easily universal and a Goku 100x or more Stronger fought black in a Stronger form)

[@kuru-yami9416]

@@Stopscrolling.P he is multiversal. BASE kid goku hasa feat above Ui Omen goku and its not even end of gt. He one shots a null dimension, again, in BASE, and nerfed too from being kid form. So power that by ssj4 sub fusion-level multiplier and mulltiply THAT again by fusion multiplier itself. Yeah, he will destroy goku black. Goku black needs to fuse with zamasu to win this. And thats not even considering change-state goku or 100 year skip goku in the equation. Super is broken, no doubt about that, but so is Gt and it always has been. Ps: this is also ignoring the extra power gains from the time gap between that feat and end of shadow dragon saga.

[@supersaiyanprimalbroly31]

@kuru-yami9416 all to most of the feats in GT are head Canon Goku destroys the Sugoro realm, an entire dimension that's similar to a hyperbolic time chamber, with a single Kamehameha. Vegeta in super Destroyed the hyperbolic time chamber in base form as well that's similar to sugoro realm. And any power gains in the gaps as you state are head Canon cause they can't be proven.

[@Scorpios-to3zj]

I don't understand why Dragon Ball fans are so judgmental and toxic towards GT. I don’t argue with the fact that SS4 Goku will lose to DBS Goku from the arc, for example Zamasu, (Without taking into account, a hundred years later Goku). But I am indignant at many videos, edits and surveys where people simply underestimate and trivially underestimate GT

[@numberhunter62]

While that's true, GT fans can also be the same. Like people are out there saying Base GT Goku solos everyone in Super, including Zeno and Grand Minister. GT's fights also don't do it many favours. Like Golden Ozaru Baby not being able to destroy the Earth with a single Super Galick Gun.

[@manipulatortrash]

eh...i'd say its more because gt fanboys exist, not because gt fans exist. Gt fans have probably seen the series in its entirety and know whats both good and bad about it. Gt fanboys are basically clip watchers who only see the good in it and are so into powerscaling (even though none of it was ever kept in mind during any db series ever) that they look at the most minute action from a gt character and massively wank their strength above anything remotely sensible. If you really find it offensive people keep having to go out of their way to compare super to gt, its because of gt fanboys who genuinely dont understand what narrative is and what story gt was trying to tell. Heck, i'd even point out and say your comment about the "hundred years later goku" is honestly an issue too. That hundred laters goku is unscalable both narratively and feats wise, but plenty of gt fanboys will flat out say he's the strongest in the verse based on....nothing. He's irrelevant and unscalable the way a nameless God of destruction is from Super. His existence is based on story, not power.

[@RideLight777]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/on6zc3tve7uVjLM

[@uiu-n5h]

@@numberhunter62 I've never seen someone say that. I'm convinced the only people who insist god to base wasn't retconned despite all the inconsistency are dbs glazers. This guy in the video really tried to say ssj4 Goku is equal to dbz super vegito. He seriously said base Goku black is equal to ssb even though after turning rose, he should have been dominating but they were equals. That's like saying base goten scales to ssj gohan during their training in the buu saga. Toriyama just doesn't care about multipliers or powerscaling. The anime does goku black differently, his base is his ssg since he had god ki, and using ssj looked like rose which would be his version of blue so a 50x increase. GT Goku probably stops at ssbkkx10 Goku, if we assume both ssg and baby vegeta when he said he surpassed vegito are equal(we don't know the gap between vegito and either of them). Even with dimensional scaling, GT did reach macrocosm destroying levels, but didn't go as many layers above it as super. Janemba(low-multiversal) happens in the same timeline since vegeta knew the fusion dance, and ssj4 goku upscales. You have to highball GT to get goku 1000x stronger than Janemba, but ssbkkx20 Goku safely is 1000x stronger than the first low-multiversal character. There are also arguments for ssj4 being a 4 million times multiplier, and the cooler cameo giving them inaccessible speed when he intercepted goku mid-teleportation, but they're not very strong, so this where he stops in dbs according to me.

[@HakeemTheDream616]

Gt was horrible

[@CrucialMutual]

I was hoping you would talk about the power ups ssj4 recieves as well as the other abilities it displayed that other forms dont have. Not even a mention of Elder Kais statement where he describes it like the ultimate form, kinda dissapointed that stuff was skimmed past.

[@JesterTheLesser]

well for one he did talk about ssj4's power up, and 2 elder kai saying ssj4 is like the ultimate form...Doesnt really matter??????

[@CrucialMutual]

@@JesterTheLesserit does actually, the multiplier changes greatly from that. You would need to factor the base ssj4 multiplier plus the multiplier of the added potential. Thats because if ssj4 functioms the same way as elder kai describes the ultimate form then it should have that added function. We see in super that the ultimate forms multiplier isnt stagnant, it grows as the user does so it changes everything.

[@CrucialMutual]

@@JesterTheLesseralso he didnt, he listed a multiplier for baby saga. No mention for super full power or ultra full power was made nor were its other abilities mentioned. This was more of a baby saga ssj4 then shadow dragon.

[@CrucialMutual]

Also, the fusion multiplier is exponential. Its not a A x B = its more of a A + B to the X power/degree =

[@thelettucebarrel7784]

@@CrucialMutual None of that really matters if he just gets one shot by Goku Black in base.

[@Ghost-Zilla12]

I'll defend GT on this one since you've made so many errors. 1. Golden Great ape is not 500x. In the Perfect Files, it says SS4 gets its power from Golden Oosaru. You were right. Goku's dormant power was awakened, but SS4 Vegeta is relevant to SS4 Goku, so if only Goku got this power up, then Vegeta should be far weaker as a SS4. 2. There is a huge difference between Sugoroku space and the time chamber. The time chamber was stated to be as big as the Earth while Sugoroku space has statements for being infinite in size, meaning GT Goku can bust infinite constructs in base form. GT characters are way passed universal levels of power. GT characters are a lot stronger than what most people give them credit for.

[@killinghawkz]

preach

[@ahmadafzal1918]

Mate defending GT at this point is just a chore People dont read and dont want to understand others opinions. Toriyama himself stated End of Z goku transcends every power level before and GT literally occurs after that putting Ss4 beyond just quantifiable numbers over dbs

[@wsostark9206]

cry about it ssj4 gets wacked by base LOL

[@Ghost-Zilla12]

@wsostark9206 How is Dbs Goku stronger than SS4 Goku when he isn't even stronger than EoZ Goku?

[@whitehuntergaming7274]

@@Ghost-Zilla12 because super is in a different continuity hi

[@austinispeoplegames6831]

The GT vs super debate has been going on for nearly a decade and no amount of up scaling on the GT side has evened the playing field. How do people still think the GT characters stand a chance?

[@simeon8814]

That's because as a reminder, Super fanboys don't really know the scaling of GT nor do they know effectively all the guides and what they say

[@Chckster]

GT is in the toeiverse. That’s really how he wins, just that.

[@humanman9920]

How do u still glaze dbs so much ? The hype sunk in pipe down brother . Sugoroku space feat solos

[@humanman9920]

​@@ChcksterSugoroku space feat is how he wins , other things or not doesn't matter

[@JoaoVitor-ur8fk]

​@@humanman9920The dimension that is compared to the HTC in guides? yeah great feat GT has

[@humanman9920]

2:05 False , there's no reason to assume he'd be holding back more against him than he was against others as before Ssj2 Vegeta he didn't only not feel the need to dodge but simply tank the attacks effortlessly , there is no reason for him to make any similar expression to the one he does after taking Goku's punch and getting thrown to the other side of the world , this theory clearly contradicts Super 17's way of playing with his opponents / holding back upto now and is only based on a presumption that Goku hasn't gotten stronger instead of an actual good reason to prove it. " no way to prove he actually got stronger " Equally punch clashes against Super 17 and throws him to the other side of the earth hurting him pretty damn good with the gut punch and he has to block it with the hand the next time Goku does it , also Goku being the first opponent he absorbs ki blasts of . Also no that's not just " 8x " but upwards of 64x as Super baby 2 itself is stated to resemble ssj3 in GT Perfect Files who Majuub dominated to the point Baby had to inflate his muscles like the grade 2 or 3 ssj back in the day to beat Majuub in the beam clash . 2:33 Syn literally tanked Ssj4 Goku's 10x kamehameha in their first fight . Increased full power Ssj4 Goku overwhelms him in every sense of the word . 2:40 Yes he does he destroyed him with the dragon fist and pretty much won if not for his broken regeneration ability that he got from one of the other dragons bringing him back . Final explosion is also implied to have the same level of effect which falls in line with Super 17 after having absorbed 10x kamehameha getting significantly injured by it and only surviving because of putting up a special barrier at the last moment . 2:55 The statement on screen literally says " more than an even match " and is shown to get clearly dominated by him... 3:32 No u're not , saying it " resembles ssj3 " as a general statement without specifying anything means the statement applies as an overall so including one of the most important aspects of it as well , it's more different in looks than it is similar anyway so there's no meaning of just making that statement for just some little similarity in looks without even mentioning it , so it's pretty blatantly giving an understanding of that form overall by comparing it to ssj3. 5:56 No they don't , what is the basis of saying that ? HTC only has slowed time and about the size of the earth , Sugoroku space has no quantified anything . Stated capable of making people " wander forever " which confirms what " between space and time " should actually mean making it leagues beyond HTC , it's also above life and death as it restores Goku's clothes and body in it by default while other statements between Sugoro and Goku saying he's not dead yet but not back to life either , the reference of sanzu river giving a clear idea of its nature as that's a place between the living and the dead , which doesn't exist in dragon ball as we know it because this is the first time anyone is shown reaching sugoroku space and never before whenever they went to afterlife , Sugoro also says this place is worse in severity. Baby with his RDB also says Goku wouldn't be able to come back to life after that which also confirms this transcends everything else from before as anyone too overwhelmed in power is supposed to go to afterlife before this point . Supreme kais are also stated to have no power in it ,see it or reach it even though according to this " oh this is just that subspace " theory they should be able to as they already travel it in their instant teleportation and are stated to be watching over the entire world . Saying HTC is comparable to this place is completely baseless and a reach , other than the fact that in the feats themselves Goku makes Sugoroku space explode while in Buu saga characters only made small holes through HTC which again is not at all comparable to Sugoroku space in any case . 9:47 Nah bro how can we be super nice and admit an absolute fact that is proven both by statements and the ridiculous shown feats in the show both establishing Dbz Vegito losing way before Ssj4 Goku even appears ? Being too kind to GT there not outright ignoring the info come on now . 9:55 No it's not , it's higher than the very lowball estimation we have with concrete evidence not " possible quantifications " as the level of dominations aren't taken into account and golden ozaru can literally be assigned any multiplier over ssj3 and it wouldn't be wrong by default , evidence pointing to a higher multiplier than this lowball we conclude for some understanding isn't unreasonable just because . 40,000x is a bare minimum not a cap . 10:13 That's GT's continuity though , the level dbz itself established Vegito far surpassed with the Sugoroku space feat , so GT implying Vegito was stronger and getting him a bit further is exclusive to GT's continuity and scaling , can't be applied to Super , which only scales off the level shown in dbz or their own additional scaling statements . Sugoroku space is just established above in scaling which is just Base GT Goku , let alone Ssj4 who tanks RDB no effort the same attack that sent him there all the way from the bottom of mortal universe by an indirect hit . The place from dbs similar in scale to it is world of void which it took dbs Goku UI to even shake let alone destroy like GT Goku did . Omega's feat helps with nothing as he's stated capable of destroying all that exists in that continuity after sugoroku space already got destroyed by base Goku , by his weakest possible method in every sense of the word , not only the black aura ability he uses while doing that comes from the weakest and first dragon Goku encountered , but even Omega never uses this power whenever he should be using his strongest attack whether he's royally pissed at Gogeta 4 or backed into a corner by the Goku holding a spirit bomb who is somehow withstanding his regular hits while it's heavily implied he's neither alive nor dead which is when he's stated to have entered the change state and later showing the existence itself which seems on the level of something like sugoroku space. He only ever used that ability when he's in the most comfortable position against the opponents , k*lling the universe by just standing there menacingly . Characters not attempting to destroy something doesn't mean they can't . U're saying mastered ssj Goku in Cell saga was just planet level for the statement of his well charged kamehameha from above only being stated capable of destroying earth ? And that less strong characters don't scale to planet level and way above because of not scaling to him ? Ssj4 Goku wins easily .

[@Afk_ruins]

preach

[@smananderson09]

Fax debunked his ass and said straight facts

[@zombie9865]

The room of spirit and time is never stated to be devoid of time, it just warps time. It's also never stated to be devoid of space, is mentioned to be infinite in size in a few guides though. Comparing it to the gt feat doesn't work.

[@humanman9920]

It was also stated to be about the size of earth . Sugoroku space feat never had a quantifiable mention like the outright false claim made in this video to spread misinformation , instead after " between space and time where nobody from outside can help " and simply being above the reach of kais and their magic crystal ball as a whole , it was only supported into actually meaning infinite with " cheaters can wander here forever " and not just " oh it's just between space and time but that doesn't really mean anything just a magical little thing " claimed by this video .

[@ashuraomega1000]

Destroying the Sugoroku Space isn't even an impressive feat when you realize that characters as far back as the Buu saga have been capable of destroying individual 3D realms with their sheer power alone. Buu was going to destroy the Grand Kai's planet which was nearly universal in size, Goku has shook and even warped the afterlife when turning into a ssj3 multiple times, Gogeta in fusion reborn just from being created warped the entirety of hell, Buuhan's screaming was going to tear apart the entire universe 7 macrocosm, ect. GT Goku destroying a dimension in base means nothing because multiple characters have already done feats similar to this.

[@JoaoVitor-ur8fk]

iirc the same guide said both HTC and Sugoroku space are without space and time so yeah GT fans cant stop hyping up stuff that dbd characters would do by flexing their muscles

[@zombie9865]

@@JoaoVitor-ur8fk which guide is that? I haven't seen a statement like that for the hyperbolic time chamber even after looking for quite a while?

[@JadoBouhzam]

Yeah also the subspace is a place between dimensions and it holds the room of spirit of time it its self is devoid of the concepts of space and time unlike the room of spirit of time which does have space and time 2 completely different realms

[@thiccksteve5771]

As much as I love SS4, and SS4 Gogeta even more, its pretty obvious they’d get destroyed by most characters in DBS, let alone Goku Black.

[@Dr.RoseDB]

Yeah. Not by any logic or facts but just cuz you say so

[@purplesky4157]

@@Dr.RoseDBactually there’s plenty of feats and logic you’re just a fanboy that doesn’t except it. Super scaling is so much higher than gt it’s laughable. Yall fanboys are ridiculous

[@scprwbysportal7202]

​@@purplesky4157 and you're just hating because we like a diffirent show than you. VS is a hyper subjective topic. Because people are willing to buy diffirent things for characters. So say for example there's a Z fan that thinks that Super Vegito could beat Resurrection F Goku. He would buy the most downplayed scaling for that version of goku to make his win. Aka just bias. We all have it and the GT vs Super debate is stupid. Because both are really fun shows. And when it comes to what I think is the powerscale of GT and Super in terms of gokus. OuterVersal for GT and high multi-Outerversal for Super. Because I like both shows and I'm willing to buy the best possible for both.

[@Sokhele]

Base Goku Black beats on GT Goku letting him get countless zenkais till he gets bored.

[@lonkstakes]

Farming GT goku for exp is crazy lmao

[@thomasthecoolkid7228]

​@@lonkstakes The fact that Hyorinjutsu's version of Black basically did just that kinda shenanigannery is what makes me love that version so much

[@aka-fusion8909]

Idiot 😭😭

[@markmagician2471]

That's not true at all

[@kuru-yami9416]

Gt goku bullys tf outta black.

[@ikeillue8385]

I feel like the only real argument that could be made, is off the assumption (a faulty assumption, but thats irrelevant to this point.), that Super is still canon to the GT timeline. Beyond that, you have to stretch pretty hard to get GT's power scaling to reach that of Super.

[@we_be_vibiin-twitch]

base baby was stronger and had more stamina than ssj3 goku, making him at least 400x stronger than base goku, baby gets his own ssj3 400(400) =160k base goku, the revenge death ball is most definitely way stronger than the galick gun but we'll say its 3x the users power for simplicity, to overpower/absorb/negate an attack or person in db you need to be 2x the strength which would equate to a 20% difference in power level as power levels are exponential. baby gets GGA which for simplicity sake we'll say is only 10x, baby absorbs 1000x the blutz waves making his gga 10kx his ssj3 state, equates to about 1.6 billion times base goku. ssj4 matches this but isnt enough to beat baby, 5 super saiyans pour their power into goku creating super full power saiyan 4 which completely tanks and absorbs the revenge death ball thrown by GGA baby making him 2x as powerful as the attack so 6x 1.6 billion would mean super full power saiyan 4 is a 10 billion multiplier on top of base goku who is already outerversal in nature due to EoZ goku being objectively stronger than Arale who can: travel through time, interact and force toriyama to change the story, can cut herself out of her own manga and show it to her friend who views db as fiction and she loops this, and EoZ goku is objectively stronger than her. super characters can not hang with gt not even on a multiplier level but on a feat level. revenge death ball is also stated to be able to destroy you so completely you can never return to life and it interrupted and hit goku in kibito kai's kai kai technique which would require outerversal AP and it would be an irrelevant speed attack. we dont even need gt goku for this debate, EoZ Goku is enough.

[@lonkstakes]

He's gonna at LEAST need Super Saiyan 5...

[@HK21336]

Well now that I think Toyotarou is officially in charge of Dragon ball there might actually be a chance of seeing he’s AF manga being finished maybe, would love to see it especially animated to

[@Somthingliminal]

Lonk in the super 17 arc hell fighter 17 and 17 powering up caused hell and the living realm to collide and super 17 is 50 times stronger than regular 17 and super sayin goku should scale to super 17 with ssj4

[@lonkstakes]

@@Somthingliminal So they did a worse version of what buuhan did by himself?

[@simeon8814]

@@lonkstakes this Is like asking why Kefla says "I can destroy a universe" despite Kale and Caulifla scaled way beyond Bog Goku

[@zayy4440]

Gt goku is capable of handling goku black especially if you give him his 100 years post gt He was already doing feats 1/5th the strength of God goku as a ssj3 in the janemba movie with all the multipliers he should be able to handle super goku black

[@FamousAaron99]

KAZI perfectly explains why GT Goku is stronger than what most people think.

[@killinghawkz]

He spoke the truth even I used to think gt was weak boy was I wrong...makes sense that they stronger man I wish they'd continue off from gt instead of super

[@greenhakai]

Super is strong, gt is too. I think they are equal. But just enjoy the motherfucking show man idc about if ssjr or ssj4 is stronger😭🙏

[@scprwbysportal7202]

I think that's being as nice as humanly possible to each character he does. He even did GT Goku vs Super Goku. And gave both of them their most glazed estimates possible with as little downplay as possible. And GT Goku still won that.

[@scprwbysportal7202]

​@@greenhakai fun fact: people can enjoy things in diffirent ways.

[@greenhakai]

@@scprwbysportal7202 fun fact: i do know this and i love scaling

[@Jsipki265]

Pop out and show them Lonk

[@lonkstakes]

Thank you so much goat

[@millasboo]

2:45 He does actually via the supposedly limit breaker thing in which he absorbs the power from gohan,trunks,Goten and pan then later Majuub.

[@_DatDaft_]

For starters, good video. Second of all, I am a GT Fan, but not trying to be a GT Meat Rider rn, but I don’t really think you’re being too fair for GT Goku. I mean, yeah you could say that when GT Goku first got SSJ4, SSJ4 could’ve been stronger then Potara Fusion (let’s say 40,000x as one of your boosts you brought up), but then again, you could say that SSJ4 would grow stronger just like the Ultimate Form, as SSJ4 (well, pretty sure it was Golden Great Ape, but would be the same for SSJ4 nonetheless) was said to be similar to the Ultimate Form, as both Forms draw out hidden battle power/potential to its Utmost Limits. GT Gokus Base Form at the start of GT alone, would’ve also been far more powerful then a Base EoZ Goku (Base EoZ Goku would’ve been at least = if not stronger then a Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku, as EoZ Uub was stated to be greater/stronger then Kid Buu, and EoZ Goku didn’t even need to transform against Uub), GT Goku in the Baby Saga would’ve been stronger then he was at the start of GT, as he fight General Rildo, who was by far the strongest enemy Goku has faced in years before... well, you know, Baby, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons, but since Super Baby 1 was stated to have the strongest energy ever felt in years, then it’s safe to say that he was far more powerful then SSJ Vegito, Super Baby 2 being even more powerful then Super Baby 1, and SSJ4 Goku (as stated by Elder Kai) wasn’t even using a fraction of his Power against Super Baby 2.

[@_DatDaft_]

But I also think you’ve left out a little bit of an important statement about SSJ4. GT Goku in the Shadow Dragon Saga did say when fighting Eis Shenron that SSJ4 “Learns and Adapts” (not the exact words he used, but the same thing nonetheless) as SSJ4 Adapted to Eis Shenrons Freezing Beam (and probably more things), which made Eis Shenrons Freezing Beam not work on him anymore, but it was shown that if a Skill that SSJ4 has adapted to hasn’t been used on it in a while, SSJ4 will lose its adaption to it, as shown when Omega used Eis Shenrons Freezing Beam against SSJ4 Goku, and it worked (pretty sure Omega even said something about it aswell). But it was shown that SSJ4 (well, at least I think it was Ultra Full Power SSJ4) was able to adapt to being physically blind, as SSJ4 heightened GT Gokus senses soo much, to the point where SSJ4 was able to see Omegas Attacks before he even makes them, and was dodging without even thinking, SSJ4 was pretty much the OG UI back then when you think about it.

[@humanman9920]

The dude is just glazing dbs , outright lying with claims like sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time . That feat already outscales all of dbs Goku , as most comparable place is world of void in scaling which dbs Goku shook by UI. Also , Super baby 1 statement's implication of dbz Vegito's power , only applies to GT continuity , since the level established by dbz itself is far outclassed by sugoroku space feat , so it's only GT pushing him further by that statement and implying he goes that far , not dbz , so that implication can't apply to dbs.

[@_DatDaft_]

@@humanman9920 I mean, I’d definitely agree that he was kinda, though not really, glazzing DBS, though to be fair, DBS has horrible power scaling, GT has bad scaling aswell, but it’s no where near the stink-ass that DBS has, as it’s all over the place and doesn’t make sense half of the time, the Goku Black Saga being one, if not the biggest examples of terrible scaling, I’d go into detail, but tbh, don’t feel like going into detail.

[@gojirarex5138]

These are all things mentioned and used in the video? With the exception of the adaptation ssj4 brings that you said in the comment. Which yea is an ability of the form, but isn't something that makes him any stronger, and isn't really gonna matter with such a gigantic gap between the two of them.

[@_DatDaft_]

@@gojirarex5138 GT Gokus Base was never really mentioned in the Video, he pretty much just skipped to SSJ4s Multiplier (believed Multiplier), and lightly talked about some of GT Gokus feats. But then again, DBS as a whole has pretty stupid and inconsistent power scaling, GT has bad power scaling aswell, but it’s not as bad as DBS, so because of how inconsistent DBS can be, then there’s really no telling if GT Goku would stack up to Goku Black, as I’ve said, I wasn’t in the mood to go into detail, but I’ll talk about it a little bit, SSJ2 Future Trunks couldn’t even compete with a Base Goku Black, Goku Blacks Base was = if not a bit stronger then a SSJ2 Goku, yet a SSJ2 Future Trunks only a couple of minutes after Goku Black left, is pretty much near if not = to a SSJ3 Goku... somehow?, Base Goku Black after his first fight with SSJ2 Goku, got his first actual Zenki/Boost, which put his Base at a level where he can casually take hits from a SSJB Vegeta, a newly obtained Rose Goku Black, was able to curb stomp a SSJB Vegeta without any effort, yet somehow a SSJ2 Future Trunks (before he even got SSJ Rage) was able to stand his ground against a Rose Goku Black, a SSJB Goku didn’t even fair any better against him aswell, hell SSJB Goku somehow struggled to a Immortal Zamasu (and last time I checked, being Immortal doesn’t make you stronger)

[@davidselby3435]

you're wrong because i like monkey man more than pink man.

[@samuraiblack8840]

Just watched electrons video on black and bro the dragonball verse is way more op than we think

[@uncanaldejuegos7056]

Like they say for base cabba vs ssj4 gogeta, "just settle this in sparking zero"

[@jessegraves6642]

Your forgetting Goku's base was much higher in gt. Base Goku in hell folded cell and freeza at the same time. Also ss3 Goku is has way less power than Vegeto. But I agree Rosa Goku black would beat ssj4 Goku. However I bet ssj4 gogeta would smash him. I would put omega still in the same park though maybe 75% Goku black ssgs.

[@Jakedasnake0426]

If SSJR Goku Black beats SSJ4 Goku, then imagine comparing SSJ4 Goku to UI Omen Goku in the TOP

[@ashuraomega1000]

Destroying the Sugoroku Space isn't even an impressive feat when you realize that characters as far back as the Buu saga have been capable of destroying individual 3D realms with their sheer power alone. Buu was going to destroy the Grand Kai's planet which was nearly universal in size, Goku has shook and even warped the afterlife when turning into a ssj3 multiple times, Gogeta in fusion reborn just from being created warped the entirety of hell, Buuhan's screaming was going to tear apart the entire universe 7 macrocosm, ect. GT Goku destroying a dimension in base means nothing because multiple characters have already done feats similar to this.

[@airdraco3678]

DBS Super Goku is universal to multiversal no one else keeps up with the DBZ scaling making what you are saying right now inconsistent by your logic the universal feat should not be anything crazy yet GT Goku is beating beings way stronger than Buu in base character-wise DBS goku is not doing anything to Goku unless he uses UI and even then UI Goku's form would just run out of stamina since both of them get similar hax if power amps were something crazy yeah sure DBS forms take it but character-wise with adding amps and hax no gt goku is dimensional which is above universal mui goku shakes the void which is not even dimensional still if you want to have a close mind and be simple about it dbs Goku claps I guess scaling wise no unless it is the forms.

[@Coldskin1]

Dbgt episode 31 narratior: surogoku space, an arena between dimension Genz: surogoku space is outerversal 🤦

[@Top_E_Official]

​@@Coldskin1It's outerversal because it lacks the concept of time & space.

[@Flipitmixit]

You saying you're gonna be "as nice to GT as you can be" already tells me your bias

[@Rl55322]

No, it means he’s giving the most lenient interpretations of power scaling possible for GT. Which he did

[@humanman9920]

​@@Rl55322No he didn't , he called admitting absolute facts well established in the series being " super nice " , ignoring a bunch of info about the increases , downplaying the Super 17 arc one saying pretty much " he suddenly started holding back and making that constipated impression from a punch of Goku because i say so " , outright lied about sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time comparing it to HTC and claiming that proves he's not just some confused person but a complete coper . What did i even expect from the dude who really tried to push dbz Vegito against GT Ssj4 Goku once , and he still hasn't given up saying " i'm super nice " for admitting the fact of dbz Vegito being outclassed way before Ssj4's introduction which is established both by statements and shown feats in the series , i was the dumb one thinking he may have worked on things...

[@Omesa1200]

bruh i saw this coming before i even clicked lmoa

[@tenmayato4829]

I understand that you don't like GT but you need to stop using what you want to build your narrative about its scaling

[@humanman9920]

💯 Ikr it's ridiculous how this much misinformation is just out here being called proper scaling lmao

[@zefsavage4851]

No, he's actually right.Multiple other people have set the exact same things

[@fidelgames]

You shouldve seen the diabolical take he made the last time for GT scaling. He said everyone in Buu saga was suppressed so according to him Buu Saga Vegito should be able to compete with Baby and Super Vegito slams all of GT LOL actual clown takes

[@kuru-yami9416]

@@fidelgameswow hes fucking slow

[@tenmayato4829]

@@zefsavage4851 how he's right? By ignoring half of gt?

[@michaelsong3733]

I dont neccecarily disagree, but I also think you still downplay GT Goku. "Baby is the soonest you can say GT passed Vegito" argument for example. Saying this is like saying "Trunks is ONLY Stronger then Teen Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 in the Black Arc, because that's what Goku compared him too when they fought." Also while it's true that BABY ARC super saiyan 4 might have that level of power, the GT Perfect Files say that SSJ4 is "The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!" This also ignores Goku beat Gohan and Goten as Super Saiyans in his base form, both of which FAR surpass Buuhan, meaning that base Goku should be stronger if not NEAR Vegito's power in base, let alone Super Baby Vegeta.

[@phantomrogue7894]

I always saw Goku absorbing SSG into base as a temporary boost. He can still fight at that level of power but he isn't God level every time you see him. Every fight in Super that involves Goku using a normal SSJ transformation is Goku fighting a character who isn't God level. Too many examples to count so I'll make it quick. In the universe 6 tournament, base Goku needed SSJ against Frost who Piccolo stood a chance again, the same Piccolo who had trouble with a Frieza soldier. Super Saiyan Blue or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the result of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan meaning when he uses the yellow forms, he's not using the power of a Super Saiyan God. So no, Cabba and SSJ2 Future Trunks weren't stronger than BOG God Goku(Although Trunks surpasses it in Rage). Believe it or not, there is a way to find a decent multiplier for SSG. Vados in the tournament of power says Potara combines both of their full powers and multiplies by that by 10s of times. At it's lowest Vegito is Goku's full power + Vegeta's full power x 20. Let's say Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta are both ones. Goku: 1 SSJ3 Goku 400 Vegeta: 1 Vegeta: 100 Base Vegito = (400 + 100) 20 Base Vegito = 10,000 SSJ3 Vegito = 4,000,000 SSG Goku > SS3 Vegito. At it's lowest, SSG is at least 4,000,000 times base according to the Super anime's own scaling via Vados which is likely a retcon to the daizenshuu. It also just goes to show you how much of a beast Vegito and Zamasu were. This is a downplay by the way. I excluded the rival boost and ignored statements implying Vegito is stronger than a hypothetical fusion between Goku and Gohan. Here's my take. So we know Strongest form 1 Baby has the greatest Saiyan power if we are to believe Goku was including SSJ Vegito. If strongest form 2 is to be compared to SSJ3, then Strongest form Baby 2 is 8 times stronger than a fighter who's a bit stronger than a Buu Saga SSJ3 Vegito. This would be impressive but remember, Base GT Goku is already stronger than Z SSJ3 Goku but BOG Goku wasn't much stronger than base End of Z Goku. By going SSG for the first time, Goku was able to reach power comparable to Strongest Form 2 Baby and only continued to tap into the full strength of the form. Ironically, the stronger you think Base Goku is, the more SSG eclipses SSJ4 in power since if Base go was as strong as say... SSJ3 Gotenks, he'd need less of a power up to achieve what SSG Goku achieved. Whether you believe Goku's base is God level or if it's something he taps into like a transformation, God forms are formidable enough on their own to be a major threat in the GT timeline. Goku Black Arc Goku and Vegeta are also much stronger than in ROF and they get stronger in the Black arc while having a 50 times boost on top of SSG. It's safe to say that Goku Black would most likely beat GT Goku.

[@nunobatista5822]

Exactly, i mean he can use his ssj god power whitout transforming, but that doesnt mean its his base form. Another example is goku ssj3 against trunks ssj2, if he really did absorb ssj god power, his base would be more than enough

[@phantomrogue7894]

​@@nunobatista5822 I thought about that too but I didn't want my comment to get redundant. Legit everytime we see SSJ forms, he's fighting a Buu saga tier or below character. Everytime we've seen Goku doing SSG like things outside the form, he's been in base and when he goes SSJ while using that power, he goes blue instead. Pretop, Goku is shown to be at Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level in SSJ2(Gohan gets a power up after this but it's said he regained his power). If Goku just absorbed God into base, it wouldn't make sense because Goku would be stacking SSG on top of SSG. Everything in the anime goes against the notion that Goku's base is just God level.

[@ghostslord-23]

meanwhile goku fighting beerus later in base:

[@phantomrogue7894]

​@@ghostslord-23 Yeah, base form, not normal Super Saiyan. He can use God power in base, but he's not always using God power. The lore behind Super Saiyan blue supports this. Outside of the beerus fight, where SSG wore out but not the power, we never see SSJ-SSJ3 fight at godly levels again. Goku CAN stack SSJ on top of a godly base, but when he does, it's Super Saiyan Blue.

[@ghostslord-23]

@@phantomrogue7894 actually goku absorbed the power but it didnt become god ki ssg still has a multiplier, and ssjb is ssjg x ssj

[@omariwashington2570]

10:17 the final guidebook for the Z states that Goku is the strongest meaning that end of Z Goku is stronger than Vegito, so I do not know what you mean with this nonsense.

[@kujoova]

A shoddy argument could be made that he is using SSJ3 + Great Ape, which explains the electric sparks, something that B-Vegeta lacked when he transformed into Golden Great Ape. This would be a 4000x multiplier and sufficient to bridge that gap that B-Vegeta has made. This dosent really change anything though.

[@IsaiahJones-rw1pc]

I doubt it because if he was truly utilizing the power of SSJ3 the power multiplier from him transforming into a Great Ape and absorbing that power into SSJ4 would be absolutely INSANE and would likely be way too much for Baby Vegeta to handle even as a Great Ape unless you believe the guide statements that say Super Baby 2 is actually Baby's form of SSJ3

[@jamainegardner4193]

That would only work for GGA Goku, and SSJ4 Goku was equal to GGA Baby.

[@Handyrandy2233]

The biggest obstacle goku black is going against in the GT timeline is that GT goku would kill him ON THE SPOT, he wouldn’t waste time to see how strong he is, also vegeta is cool with fusing

[@lonkstakes]

You know who else was perfectly fine with fusing?

[@liammcguire1954]

that’s objectively incorrect. GT Goku still “wastes time” to see how strong his opponents are. He did this with the Sigma force, his first time fighting Baby Vegeta as he literally mentions how excited his body feels fighting Baby. He literally is smiling when Baby is destroying him. He also fought to see how strong Nuova is. SSJ4 Gogeta would do nothing to Black anyway

[@Handyrandy2233]

@@lonkstakesyeah yeah merged zamasu merks GT,just pointing out how the only reason goku black lives is that super goku wanted to test his power

[@dsm2417]

He can’t bc base goku black is far durable for him

[@Handyrandy2233]

@@liammcguire1954 there’s a difference between how he perceives someone who’s no real threat to him like the sigma force,and someone who he sees as a threat and wants to take out,the second baby got out of vegetas body he killed him on the spot,and super 17,and all the shadow dragons,nova shenron was the chillest of the dragons

[@user-wi9se5ll3j]

9:45 Base Goku (GT) was also stated to be stonger than Vegtio SSJ.

[@humanman9920]

No he dominated Rildo who was stated stronger than Buu by him . But Sugoroku space feat that he did later outscales all of dbs Goku

[@fidelgames]

@@humanman9920 GT Goku is a stronger EoZ Goku by 5+ years by the start of the series. EoZ Goku is already stated to be the strongest in all of Z including Vegito.

[@siei3i37]

​@@humanman9920No he doesn't lol. Did you not watch the video?

[@fidelgames]

@@siei3i37 The video is wrong

[@wolfgod6443]

I always liked the thought experiment of equating both SSG and SSJ4 to fusion as both are compared to that power a few times in the story. So this is throwing a bone to everyone and giving both forms some common ground. From there people can see for themselves how things would go down even in a 1:1 scenario. Does Goku Black decimate SSG in Rose? Yes, definitely. Did he decimate SSB in Rose? Yes, definitely. So even in what I would call a best case scenario for SSJ4, Goku Black stomps like Omega Shenron. And this is before trying to figure out the difference in strength between base DBS Goku and base GT Goku.

[@humanman9920]

Nope , this is pretty poorly made video at best . The things Goku black beats in dbs don't matter if the sugoroku space feat of GT outscales all of him .

[@humanman9920]

And the difference in strength comes out pretty big , since Dbs Goku needed UI to shake the level of place GT Goku destroyed in base .

[@redreaper9622]

I like the idea on paper, but I can't condone it. The Vegito that Goku mentioned in Battle of Gods is the Original Manga's, who all we know is impossibly (but vaguely) stronger than everyone in the Buu Saga. At best upscaling off Solar System to Multi-Solar System level fighters. ANIME Vegito (which is what GT Goku and Baby Vegeta are referencing if they mean him with "Saiya Power," as well as the Anime Guide*) is an entirely different beast. He was able to totally stop Buuhan's Outside Space, which via his raw power was going to bust the *Macrocosm.* To put it simply, Anime Vegito (albeit as a SSJ) is already equal to DBS Goku at Battle of Gods. And that's ignoring how in the Anime, Kid Buu was stronger than Buuhan, so Goku likely was at that level anyway. *From what I understand, the Anime Guide was talking about the relevant power given by Fusion itself versus SSJ4's power boost, not SSJ4 GOKU and Z-Vegito's LITERAL power.

[@wolfgod6443]

Pretty sure the video already countered Sugoroku space dude. But I'll add a bit more info for anyone still hung up about it. Baby hit Kibito Kai which sent him off course while travelling in the void and it sent Goku flying into the space. Land of the Kais and the mortal plane are within the same universe so whatever void he's travelling through shouldn't even be a separate dimension and even if it is Sugroku clearly exists within a greater expanse so the space itself is not infinite. The chance gods are not omniscient and omnipresent beings of their own realm, if they were they'd know someone was cheating. When breaking out, Goku's power is directly compared to a galaxy in strength and he strikes a hole in space time like Buu would. Goku is lost in the void and need kibito kai to break him out, so Goku cannot break free from the infinite void himself. Finally, Goku gets trapped in Hell later, so once again he can't break free from another dimension and needed help. GT goes to great lengths to undermine the feats moreso than most other things, which is actually pretty respectable. This *could* have been turned into something stupid but I think the writing in-universe shuts it down.

[@humanman9920]

​@@wolfgod6443No it didn't brother , but i'd like to see u try . " Baby hit Kibito which sent him off course travelling in the void and it sent Goku flying into that space " Nope " I had no idea that the evil power would have such force . It *warped* him into a different dimension of space " " whatever void he's travelling through shouldn't even be a separate dimension " doesn't change the fact that Sugoroku space is as he can't reach it unlike the space he was travelling through . " clearly exists within a greater expanse so the space itself is not infinite " That's not how it works , entire universe in dragon ball is a greater expanse yet the mortal universe is stated infinite . Also , it doesn't physically exist on the same plane as the rest of the universe to be even limited by its space when it's stated to be between space and time and the supporting statement " wander forever " confirming its infinite size . Goku spawns into the unrecognizable void Kibito kai is able to reach after he destroyed Sugoroku space and isn't already there with some explosion happening . " compared to a galaxy in strength " Never happened , if that's another weird thing from the dub that's not valid here . " need Kibito kai to break him out " He never broke him out but only took him to kaioshin realm , false presumption about Goku's power without him even trying to clash it against the void he was in. Kibito kai being able to reach it already makes it lower in scaling than Sugoroku space . " can't break free from another dimension and needed help " after he accidently shook heaven and hell by just charging ki in base from hell and had to stop saying " oops , guess i went a bit overboard " lmao , he can do something doesn't mean he's literally gonna destroy important realms of his universe messing up the balance even more than it already was. He only needed help to get to earth without completely blowing up hell and even heaven considering his power just mistakenly reached there , which falls in line with sugoroku space feat cuz he's easily strong enough to destroy hell after that. Don't know what u mean by " undermine " there , but ur comment was just a failed attempt at disproving something well established , ur whole reasoning is " why isn't Golu going around destroying everything after that like a mindless monster ? Because he can't " doesn't really work other than the fact that ya didn't disprove the feat itself in the first place. Nothing stupid there , GT took the dimensional scaling Buu saga started to the next levels , dbs Goku just happens to not have gone that far yet .

[@thenerdywave2007]

Great Video! 👍

[@andybrummel5555]

we know like a ton of KZbinrs who have more information and scaling on GT that would put this to shame

[@vibemasterkorosu2469]

GT redemption, we gotta carry it fr

[@Paparaga]

Aren’t the movies also canon in GT? Should scale that accordingly too

[@Senwa_Koubou]

Not really. GT is suppose to be cannon to the original DBZ anime. The only movies u could argue are cannon to Gt are Dead Zone and Coolers revenge due to the Garlic filler arc and Cooler’s brief cameo in the Super 17 arc

[@furiousgamerxz5141]

They are but people like to ignore that

[@ashuraomega1000]

People insist they are but they're really not lmfao. The movies have way too many contrasting stories and plot holes to fit them together in one cohesive timeline, let alone GT's timeline

[@airdraco3678]

they are but even if you ignore this scaling "Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no

[@airdraco3678]

@@ashuraomega1000 it's true but he does not even need it to beat even base form super goku

[@silverzen9014]

Now tell them how kale solos dbgt

[@seansean250]

Hi can you make a video on the strength of gogeta blue. Nice video btw.

[@lonkstakes]

uhhh maybe, his scaling is pretty brief

[@seansean250]

@@lonkstakes thanks man. Would appreciate it. Like maybe a gogeta vs ui goku from the top kinda thing.

[@Quackademic.]

@@seansean250There is a unquantifiable difference in strength between base goku in these so ui would slam

[@Quackademic.]

Especially coz dbs broly follows manga canon hence the lack of blovolution and ssbkk

[@Quackademic.]

Unless you wanna argue stamina in which case it’s whether or not goku can win before mui runs out

[@Kai0kenAssassin]

I like both of these Gokus. One has the sickest SSJ form EVER, and the other has a sword for a weapon. But I agree, there’s just not enough info to help support SSJ 4’s case 😞

[@DragonReaper9k]

I love the Ssj4 transformation and wish it could somhow be added to Super. It would be amazing to see a Ssj4 with God Ki and Kaio Ken stacked all on top of each other 😊. On that note: i would also appreciate more of the Cast leard Kaio Ken because I believe it to be a very useful technique even if someone would only be able to handle the base Kaio Ken multiplier. Edit: Imagine a Ssj4 Broly 😮

[@jeanfenixwolf]

The fundamental problem this whole video has is that he is taking a comparative between characters that have diverse power scaling a according to which format they are being depicted. Manga Black is way weaker than in the anime, and it’s powerscaling actually makes sense. He didn’t rose his power as much by raw zenkai, but because he got healed constantly by Zamasu, hence why he was able to obtain the SSR. If you guide yourself with anime only. Then yes, Black is leagues above SSJ4. But if you take Manga’s Black, then the fight would be actually more interesting, since it all depends on whether or not SSJ4 beats him Quickly enough that he doesn’t get his insane power boost

[@Chasm007]

Cant believe that some people in the comments genuinely think that gt has outerversal feats just cause baby can warp reality like thats a really crazy thing like its never been done before, or that omega shenron was destorying a universe slowly instantly scales higher than beerus and its outer. Fucking gt mega fans are crazy

[@humanman9920]

It's not about warping reality , it's the scale of cosmology his power reached by doing that , and yes that is outerversal , this video outright lying about it having quantifiable space and time doesn't change the fact that it's a completely baseless claim and a wild reach , especially when it's stated capable of making one " wander forever " as a supporting statement confirms the earlier statement doesn't just mean a magical little thing this video calls it but actually infinite beyond all the previous realms , if the kais simply not being able to reach it while they can do that to other realms or the subspace itself this video claims sugoroku space to be in , wasn't already enough . Yes that scale of a feat has really not been done before in dragon ball . Omega shenron destroying universe from the ability that comes from the weakest dragon , just ending everything with negative energy coming out of his existence doesn't help the case of dbs or downplaying GT , from no angle is that attack supposed to be his strongest , as he used negative karma ball the thing made from the negative energy of all seven dragons whenever either he's royally pissed or backed into a corner . This Omega shenron logic is like saying nobody before Mastered ssj Goku was planet buster cuz his strongest attack was only stated strong enough to destroy earth . Hell it's worse , cuz Omega's case is evidently using his weakest method , while mastered Goku ssj is actually using his strongest attack . Them making Omega take his time with the weakest attack to destroy all that the continuity even has left after sugoroku space is already gone , doesn't mean he's capped there just because some people would like him to be , especially when previous feats show outerverscale by a pretty good backing on sugoroku space being above all previous realms .

[@ashuraomega1000]

Destroying the Sugoroku Space isn't even an impressive feat when you realize that characters as far back as the Buu saga have been capable of destroying individual 3D realms with their sheer power alone. Buu was going to destroy the Grand Kai's planet which was nearly universal in size, Goku has shook and even warped the afterlife when turning into a ssj3 multiple times, Gogeta in fusion reborn just from being created warped the entirety of hell, Buuhan's screaming was going to tear apart the entire universe 7 macrocosm, ect. GT Goku destroying a dimension in base means nothing because multiple characters have already done feats similar to this.

[@rainer999]

@@ashuraomega1000 Literally this. Like I know that sometimes doing feats doesn't mean that you can tank said feats too, but when you realize that Buu saga characters have been doing this for a while, it kinda defeats your entire argument.

[@Coldskin1]

Its just kids spreading non sense They clearly dont know what outerversal means

[@thefuturefighter8215]

finally someone that is not just glazing for gt honesty it's been like a trend at this point

[@Ace-bl1ks]

well said! amazing video

[@jaydenthezoahking8473]

Your video not only has alot of misinformation, but you left out a statement regarding the very existance of ssj4. Ssj4 is the ultimate form for a saiyan. One that brings out a saiyans power (which is seemingly limitless as db has shown us) to its UTMOST limit. Theoretically, this makes an ssj4 transformation by that definition nigh boundless. Goku black struggles to truly understand or bring out gokus real power or even use the body to the fullest for he is no saiyan. Vegeta shines some light on this. Whis also mentions that its not best for goku to move like a god since he is still a mortal. Zamasu even mocks the idea of a mortal "imitating" a god. This is why a true ui state is ideal for goku, one that allows him to move akin to a god, yet access the very emotion that allows his powers to flourish. Back up to ssj3, we see a glimpse of this, gokus body moving instinctively, not because he senses an attack or his body is fully auto dodging like divine ui, no sir. He simply felt the attack before it landed, not by concussive force, but he felt the hit before it connected. Beerus confirms that in that moment he was going to attack. Back up and throw yourself to GT, we have a moment where goku uses this very instinct, only he does it willingly against omega shenron. Goku blocks and counters, moving beyond shown limits to react the very same way true saiyan instinct ui does. Taking that into account, its the same thing, different look, different way of achieving it. This is especially interesting considering vegeta never shows this or any form of this technique given he, even in dbs, is incapable of ui, he fights skillfully, and differently to where his utmost limit doesn't include ui-like movements or techniques. This is what can be known as true ssj4. In theory, given gt is essentially after super, and uubs appearance can tie out, not to mention the very cause of gt were because of ones taking advantage of the dragonballs (like bulmas current wishes to make her appear younger, im pretty sure they all insult shenron at one point too..anyway.) that ties out to GT. So in theory, however much stronger dbs goku gets in any form, it still falls short since these forms and current power stamps arent his utmost limit. Because of this, this would make ssj4 goku the strongest saiyan in db (outside of fusions like ssj4 gogeta) and if the utmost limit of a saiyan can surpass a god (which it has) then even beyond the gods. I think GT goku washes

[@IsaiahJones-rw1pc]

That statement is really only hyperbolic. Besides ssj4 clearly only draws out the current power that a Saiyan has and increases it the stronger they get, if the power of ssj4 was actually limitless in nature then Goku would be practically invincible with it which GT is very quick to show isn't actually the case

[@rodthedigger2902]

Great video!

[@raisefanfics]

I disagree with the GT Goku argument, but I like the way you explained Goku Black.

[@truthbehind8319]

He's lowballing GT Goku, he didn't even brought up the universal spirit bomb aka Change state Goku in this video!

[@good8619]

​@@truthbehind8319Doesn't matter what you bring up he still can't be scaled to BoG Godku since he's weaker than Omega either way, and imo Omegas feat isn't as good as the BoG one. BoG is almost destroying the Macrocosm as collateral damage, while actively trying to not do it. Omegas feat is more like, his negative Ki is like a "poison" that will eventually destroy the universe.

[@truthbehind8319]

@@good8619 Dude, actually Omega feat is more powerful then BOG, He was destroying the universe while standing still! And "his negative Ki is like a "poison" that will eventually destroy the universe. " Where do you find in GT that it would be a slow process when, the Kais where going to run, unlike BOG do your research before you try to school me!

[@mmsthfanatic6296]

@@truthbehind8319 There is no change state goku, even if there was he has 0 feats. Only feat he might have is tanking omega's blasts but goku is always tanking blasts with the spirit bomb he tanks attacks from final form frieza who's 20x stronger, kid buu whos over 400x stronger than him. So it wouldn't be hard for him to tank omega's blasts.

[@Matt-un6lf]

⁠@@truthbehind8319he said he was using ss4 goku from the shadow dragon arcs not “changed state” goku

[@jordandavilabrown294]

Sorry but there are some things in this video I disagree with (no hard feelings). 1. 1:54 There is evidence that Goku got stronger in the "Super 17 Arc", base Gohan in the "Super 17 Arc" is shown to be somewhat on par with base Rild and base Goku was able to effortlessly defeat that same Gohan who was in his ssj 1 or 2 form back in the "Baby Arc". When ssj Goku was fighting super 17 he was surprised that non of is attacks did anything to him, keep in mind that Goku is well aware that 17 defeat everyone that crossed his path including Majuub who was strong enough to hold his own against Super Baby 2, thus telling us that ssj Goku at that time was stronger than Majuub. 2. 7:55 Goku didn't convert the ssj god ki into his regular base form ki, now I'm not saying that Goku didn't absorbed the power at all but base off of what I've seen in the anime and B.O.G film Goku didn't convert it into normal ki that mortals use but instead by absorbing the god ki Goku ended up gaining two pools of ki inside his body that being the god ki and his own ki. This makes sense given that in the anime when Goku said he didn't felt any changes in power and he was in his ssj1 form and if Goku really had converted the god ki into his regular ki then Goku would have either been in his ssj3 form since it's implying that he is still going all out at that point or Goku would have released that he's even stronger than before since he's only outputting 12.5% of his power. While yes the others can sense Goku's ki at that point their reaction to Goku's ki didn't imply that Goku got exponentially more powerful then he was before and while Beerus did answer Goku's question on the matter it was more like Beerus was giving an educational guess since prior to the answer Beerus was confused as to what was going with Goku and when Goku asked Beerus what was going on Beerus said "how should I know". So yeah Goku's regular base form didn't surpass the ssj god power he used against Beerus earlier on in the fight. 3. 10:13 false since Goku has long surpass Vegerot early on in GT since base Goku is stronger than Kid Buu who is way stronger than an in raged Buuhan who's vice shout barrier was so strong that Super Vegito had to use a lot more of his ssj1 form's power if not the full power of the form to break through it. 4. 10:30 There's a video from Broku that can explain why this part of the video is wrong so I recommend you check it out. Link to the video kzbin.info/www/bejne/boKQeo2LiKajpKMsi=BN_0-9o9cqQR91O2

[@2-bit567]

Problem: Pure Boo is not stronger than Super Boo

[@jordandavilabrown294]

@@2-bit567 in the manga probably, but the anime which GT & SUPER follows after is a completely different story (except for the SUPER manga).

[@2-bit567]

@@jordandavilabrown294 No, it's been stated a few times that Boohan is the strongest.

[@jordandavilabrown294]

@@2-bit567 false, it's been stated in the anime and some guidebooks that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.

[@ghostslord-23]

@@jordandavilabrown294 alr now sorry but you're going in the section of the db fandom reserved for idiots kid buu is only more dangerous, not stronger

[@BigWillieStyle]

Akira toriyama, explaining how being abruptly transferred into a child's body and trying to adapt to it... Keep in mind that at the end of Z, goku was already compared to the level of the gods. Before that was even a thing. All of these who's stronger, goku or.. Obviously, goku. You all who are being compared wouldn't be here without him, lol. Anyways, you called me out. Had to voice my opinion. I subscribed either way 😊

[@majinjason]

You may or may not be a GT hater. Im a GT indifferent, some of it was fire and a lot of it was boring. Either way, of course the big bad in Super is going to way out class Goku in GT. Super was written after and GT is only semi canon at best. So yeah this Super Goku is going to be the strongest with the strongest villains, thats just how dragon ball has always been. I remember way back when i used to see arguments that SS4 Goku was weaker than SS3 because he started with a kid body, but thats not just wrong, its not how dragon ball works. The newest thing will always be the strongest.

[@humanman9920]

Not the same continuity , doesn't apply , info about sugoroku space clearly establishes the feat outscales all of dbs Goku , super anime is also semi canon at best , since manga is the only true canon which its events are very different from .

[@majinjason]

@humanman9920 why do you think the Super anime isn't Canon? Akira T came out with the anime for Super first. Then the manga had to play catch up. If anything the manga for Super would be less canon but the reality is they tell the sane story slightly differently, more like parallel worlds.

[@humanman9920]

​@@majinjasonToriyama would still be more involved with manga than he was was with anime , it's a fact that GT is as canon as anime gets and if u try to call it non canon u're essentially calling all of anime non canon even super which just has the same name in manga but events are vastly different .

[@wasaba1498]

Alternative title: how many fingers does base end of BOG Goku need to defeat Ssj4 GT Goku?

[@shirosatsuma4946]

Like a quarter of a finger? I think G4 dies if Bog goku breathes too hard

[@DragonBallsolosyourverse]

GT beats super

[@shirosatsuma4946]

@@DragonBallsolosyourverse it doesn't

[@kaique_cando]

Base bog goku

[@markopusic8258]

​@@kaique_candoStops training regularly huh? Let's see... spent his childhood training... trained again to the point he baffled Tien&co at the end of DB... was the strongest Z-warrior around besides his son's potential... spent a year training in the afterlife... trained relentlessly for Namek... trained new techniques on Yardrat... trained for 3 years straight for the androids, then one more for Cell... and spent his time in the afterlife training so hard he broke the realm of possibility by achieving the mind boggling SSJ3. While BOG Goku might be slightly weaker than end of Buu saga Goku, him stopping his training is so wrong I'm impressed you would even try the argument.

[@pragyankalita7848]

Ok, i agree with the overall result but i disagree with the scaling, specifically the gt part. I have scaled both series myself, so i see a lot of problems with this scale. Let's go over gt goku, at the start of gt, he is unquantifiabley stronger than his z self. So, not much till the rildo fight, Where he directly states that rildo is stronger than buu and by extension goku himself, we don't know which buu but it's safe to assume it's kid buu since he was the last one to fight goku. Kid buu was a ssj3 level opponent so, base goku is now 400 times stronger as well. Later he fights baby, who destroys him while in ssj3 despite being in his base (ssj form), baby later gets a multipler similar to ssj3, so 8 times or 3200 times stronger than base goku (who himself is 400 times stronger than his z self in base). Goku in great ape destroys him, now here's my biggest gripe with your scaling. Gold great ape isn't ssj x great ape, it's a different form all together, to my knowledge nowhere is it stated that it's ssj great ape. Anyways great ape will be a 3200 x multiplier, goku then turns ssj4 which baby matches in his great ape form which according to my calculations, should also be a 8 x multiplier from ssj3. Therefore, ssj4 is 64x ssj3 or 25,600x base. Goku then uses super full power ssj4, which should atleast be 10x as powerful since baby uses a death ball on him which should be above goku's 10x kamehameha, which baby matched with his auper galick gun. So, sfssj4 should he atleast 256,000 times base or 640 times ssj3. In the super 17 arc, goku just gets 8 times stronger with no much else to say. Majuub, who was able to fight baby in his strongest form 2, was completely destroyed by 17. Goku in ssj was able to fight evenly with 17, so 8 x stronger. Finally let's get to the shadow dragons arc, not much happens till the fight against nova. Where goku randomly states that base nova is the strongest enemy yet, putting him above 17 and rage shenron, characters with power comparable or greater than goku's 10x kamehameha. Therefore, goku randomly gets stronger than his previous strongest level of power with ssj4. So goku's max power (with ssj4) essentially got squared, truly gt stands for goku time. Any syn arrives and goku gets 10x stronger due again, syn walking of a 10x kamehameha. So that's it, Goku should be a total of 20.9 quadrillion times stronger than his z self's base or 52.4 trillion times stronger than his z self's ssj3 form. I genuinely didn't know it will get THIS high but makes sense. Anyways, i agree with super scale but I won't scale it here because it's just verrrrrrrrrrry long and don't wanna write it, just know even base black can dogwalk gt goku at his peak

[@humanman9920]

Nope , baseless assumption about kid buu , statement about " Buu " will apply to whichever character is Buu . Later , clearly dominates Super baby 2 in Golden ozaru not just matching , lowest multiplier combination for that being 10x ssj3 , 4000x base . Ssj4 and full power estimations are fine These are lowballs that are set in stone not caps . Proper observation on sugoroku space and its feat is all that's needed to debunk this video with the outright false claims it made about it specifically , Base GT Goku since that feat is outscaling all of dbs Goku whose best feat was shaking a place on a similar scale in UI , let alone Goku black.

[@pragyankalita7848]

@@humanman9920 Sure. I agree with the buu stuff, I was just making a convenient assumption and also the fact that kid buu was final boss of dbz. Since the other buu's will require much more scaling to do and it's pretty exhausting but I think the overall powerups should remain the same as they don't have much to do with the buu statement. The multipliers I am using are calculated without taking whose stronger into account as it is very inconsistent to scale power difference in dragon, it ranges from a few percent difference to multiple times different. Too inconsistent, so I just ignore it to avoid too much speculation. So, yes, it's lowball but it's the only scale that has validity. No. Hard disagree, the suguroku space has basically no scaling around it. It's literally just an dimension, no real statements about size or anything for that matter, watch ssjryu's debunk of Saiyan scholar, he makes valid points against it. All we have about it is that was stated to be 'eternal', which could mean a number of things, it's mostly refer to the endless flow of time or something basically just that it's forever lasting. This doesn't really hold up, since time is infinite for anything even for a nugget. The point is, it's just a dimension of unknown size and has time in it that just so happens to be in the middle of time and space, which doesn't really mean anything. Btw before you bring up the immortal raccoons to prove it has no time, they just stopped aging there, it's ambiguous how that happened. Also dbs Goku's best feat isn't shaking the world of void. That's literally one of the weaker feats in the series, it's just universal+ due to shaking an infinite dimension, it's more of speed feat to be fair. It just solidly gives Goku infinite speed and inaccessible speed, as the world of void apparently not having time. Anyways if we are talking about the best feats in the series, it will either be the potential timeline busting one which i really don't wanna discuss, it's A whole headache or outscaling beerus and Champa (anime only), where those two can casually destroy their respective universal macrocosms, it's like twice the power of anything in GT at maximum due to their being only one universe in GT but it's irrelevant in the argument. Since ssg at the START of super could destroy the entire universe 7 macrocosm pretty easily, he would scale from Low multiversal to multiversal on the lower end to potentially 5D, due to the afterlife having statements for dimensional transcendence but it's up to you to decide. Btw omega shenron scales to this and by extension gogeta too but we are talking about Goku in the shadow dragons Arc in ssj4, he doesn't but does scale to universal+ with end of gt Goku probably scaling above this. But the problem is the sheer increase in power present in super, he just keep getting stronger and stronger randomly, like in the manga in the manga ssj Goku black beats up blue Vegeta, like it's like beating up guy who is more than a Ssj3 fusion x 50 times power. Like ssb is no joke, that thing is a fucking monster. So I think manga Goku black is better match than anime Goku, who is even more ridiculous than this.

[@humanman9920]

​@@pragyankalita7848" basically no scaling around it , no statements about size or anything " false . Stated " between time and space where nobody from outside can help " with the supporting statement of being capable of making one " wander forever " which confirms it being infinite . Not just " eternal " , " time is infinite for anything even a nugget " being false equivalence as nugget isn't a living thing that is stated to wander forever in it . Being the highest infinity so far stated simply not having time and space isn't " unknown size ". " before u bring up this argument , it's ambiguous how that happened , but it doesn't have the obvious reason that this place has explicit statements for " 😂 Sure bud , saying everything that doesn't match up with this presumption based on false reason ya just presented is not a good argument . Potential timeline busting isn't Goku's feat , don't see how that's clearly above either when RDB's power reaches outside time and space and further than the kaioshin's reach from the bottom of mortal universe while threatening existence erasure against the basic rules of the world of living and afterlife and even by the indirect hit making Goku stuck between life and death which are binary oppositions scaling this power upto outerversal scale . Shadow dragon arc characters scale leagues above that. As Base Goku's sugoroku space feat is already on a higher scale . Omega effortlessly k*lling the universe with the weakest method possible , using the black aura ability from the weakest dragon also shown like the weakest attack he has since that's the only time he uses that and not when he's royally pissed or backed into a corner , only using regular attacks or negative karma ball that is stated to have the negative energy of all seven dragons , while also having no more things to destroy in the continuity after sugoroku space is already , doesn't exactly favour dbs characters as people try to say . Infact , using a feat like this even if it WAS through his strongest attack in a hypothetical scenario , would still be faulty logic as even that is shown wrong before in dragon ball . As mastered ssj Goku was also only stated capable of destroying earth with his kamehameha when characters since saiyan saga have been planet busting level . Before even mentioning dbs has outright statements like Frieza really threatening GoD Toppo with a planetary attack , Whis saying " there's no way i can stop the power strong enough to end the world " making dbs characters scaling more questionable than anything else . In comparison to all that , using Omega's feat as a cap to greater scaling feats from before when he's still destroying all that exists with the weakest method possible , is at best a reach .

[@pragyankalita7848]

@@humanman9920 I still disagree with the suguroku space being infinite. It's stated to be between space and time, can you please explain how it makes it biggest infinity ever stated in the dbz verse? When the clearly much much bigger universe exists. Between space and time is just it's location, it has nothing to with anything else. As for the wander forever statement, it's rather vague but let's give you that. That would make base gt Goku high universal (for destroying an infinite dimension or universe). That's the maximum for it cause it doesn't have any statements for dimensionality. That's literally a fodder feat in comparison to most of dbz and super. Now on the timeline, it's a super structure that contains the 12 universes (which are as big as the universe 7 or just the default dbz universe.) and the neutral space (the space between universes and which covers the rest of the multiverse, stated by Champa). Alright, we know each universe is atleast low multiversal with their size being infinite, then the timeline should be atleast 5 to 6 dimensional, due to it containing both the universes and the neutral space. Guess what? Merged zamasu was able infiltrate and occupy a timeline. So anyone stronger than or equal to zamasu should be there as well, Goku in black Arc implied he was capable of doing something if he had a senzu buttttttttttt this is pretty wonky. We don't even need it in this argument. Lastly, Omega shenron is indeed doing it passively but it's rather slow. It wasn't stated to be instant like with bog Goku. It's more like disease to universe than outright destruction to be fair but it still qualifies to be low multiversal. Same with gogeta but not with Goku himself. Gt Goku on his own doesn't scale to universal destruction, he's at best universal+ (due to scaling above the living world). It would be unjust to give Goku scaling to omega just because they are from the Same verse, it's like saying super Goku scales to zeno. As for gogeta and Omega, they are probably relevant up until the Ui omen Goku, as that's when they reach duo universe busting powers. It's wayy higher than anything possible for gt, cause it only has 1 universe that's all. Though it is only the case if they stack up in numerical scaling. But that's all. Also dude stop, this debate ain't going nowhere. If you reply I can't myself from debating 😭. It's a habit from reddit.

[@Spooderman-r6y]

@@pragyankalita7848 Disagreeing doesn't change facts tho . One can't " wander forever " in a place that either has limited time or space hence the supporting statement refers to it being infinite sized and due to not having time and space its infinite scale is the greatest . " clearly much bigger universe " based on what ? Where's ur proof ? A diagram showing it bigger ? Statement establishing its outside time and space like the subspace let alone sugoroku space which kaioushin can't even reach unlike the rest of the universe and subspace ? " is just its location , nothing to do with anything else " Learn what the words u use mean first . Not being bound by space and time means its scale is bound to be potentially greater. To prove it isn't u need something proving it's smaller or simply limited in size , yet the statements only say the opposite instead . Not really vague that's all that is needed to give an understanding about what it exactly means by " between time and space " . Correction , high multiversal , beyond time and space infinite is a greater infinite than ones not stated simply beyond time and space , it doesn't only humiliate dbz feats badly but also outscales all of dbs Goku upto now , and that's the lowball after ignoring the strong implications it has for being above life and death as well since Goku is stuck between them in it which are binary oppositions being beyond which at the same time would make it outerversal , but at worst world of void from dbs only matches and Baby's RDB is still outerversal for not only catching Goku from the subspace outside space and time Kibito kai was travelling through with IT , after being used in the living world the bottom of db universe sphere and warping Goku to a dimension even further beyond time and space where kais can't reach , but also put him between life and death . " occupy a timeline " Doesn't change the fact there's no new place on the level of sugoroku space shown being taken over cuz that's world of void . Zamasu taking over the other universes in a timeline gets him to subspace level that's the " neutral spaces " u're talking about " not belonging to any world " , sugoroku space is one step further as Kibito kai who travels through subspace in IT can't reach it . U do infact need that and more , which u don't have. " wasn't stated to be instant like BoG Goku " and where exactly was BoG feat stated to be instant ? If anything it was shown longer with their long 3 punch and beam clashes implied to be capable enough , while for Omega's Old kai said " soon " and told Kibito kai there was nowhere to run to . " more like a disease than outright destruction " and same goes for Zamasu's feat that u mentioned and more so than Omega since in his there was no destruction involved . He's already high universal for *accidently* shaking hell and heaven , high multiversal for destroying sugoroku space . Not giving him Omega's scaling through his weakest attack doesn't change anything , and yet in terms of properly scaling to him he did destroy him with Ssj4 dragon fist and Omega only came back with his broken regeneration immortality he got from one of the other dragons . " probably " isn't a valid argument / reasoning / proof . " duo universe busting powers " Finite amount of lower infinites don't match a higher infinite that is sugoroku space. Oh no 😭 what will people ever do this redditor is saying he'll continue the debate with his desperate ass " finite amount of multiple universes are higher than a greater infinite , double universe busting power 🥺 " reasoning . Replying doesn't change the fact that it's clear all u can do is make a poor attempt at downplaying GT scaling with " oh but dbs did this and this pls it's greate- uhh.. probably come on it's just greater 😭 " If u have something of value to add u're welcome to , otherwise no need to waste everyone's time .

[@Bruh-zu5pl]

As a gt meat rider, I will say that you’ve got some pretty acceptable scaling for gt, but the only I personally have a problem with is your suguroku space segment, I don’t understand where you got the idea that it’s not as impressive as people think. Suguroku space is outright stated to exist without the concept of space and time and exists between dimensions. It’s basically the exact same place as the world of void in dbs. And base gt goku one shots it while it took the strongest of the tournament of power to even sake it.

[@lonkstakes]

I dont think its as insane as people say because that same guide describes the time chamber the exact same way. And thats the size of a planet, and has a flow of time

[@Jsipki265]

@@Bruh-zu5pl the same description is given to the HBTC so not that impressive.

[@Bruh-zu5pl]

@@lonkstakes the time chamber is an example of a pocket dimension since it has a finite space, it’s it’s own dimension whereas Suguroku space exists between dimensions like the world of void. Yes while the guide gives it the same description, we can obviously see in z that that’s simply not the case, the guides are tricky and inconsistent as hell so I personally use dialogue or visuals from the show itself to make the arguments I make

[@seawarrior954]

To add onto what others have said, sugoroku space was already in the process of collapsing all on its own, so I’d argue that feat doesn’t actually scale.

[@Top_E_Official]

​@seawarrior954 That's not true. Only the game was collapsing. The gods of that realm wanted to keep Goku in there forever, so why would they make it collapse? Exactly makes no sense.

[@mcuziman]

That picture of goku black in the thumbnail actually goes hard

[@terrillwilliams1515]

2:00 actually that would be true because 17 was just standing there while he was actually fighting goku. Even Gohan and his Kamehameha wave was expected to do something despite Oob being there. Then you have Vegeta who Powers up and was able to push 17 a little bit. This shows that in this moment he was above everybody else. Than Goku comes in and does far better than vegeta.

[@Wildcard_Chaos]

So...we just disregarding the fact that end of GT, Base Goku exceeds his previous SSJ4 power as he tanks Omega's minus energy ball? Also not mentioning GT Goku's adaptability which was shown against Eis Shenron when his body automatically reacted to the ice beam?

[@airdraco3678]

"Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no

[@TheUnknownneesses]

GT Goku in the base shook the entire realm of the afterlife by simply strengthening his ki, and this action threatened to destroy it... GT Goku is stronger than DBS Goku, at least until the movie Resurrection F.

[@gamemastery3532]

And bog Goku in ssg have feat above that

[@1337wafflezz]

bingo

[@diegobrando7057]

Bro if you think ssj 40000 times multiplier you're crazy Because Goku was equal to base baby vegeta in his ssj 3 form And then baby transformed to ssj 3 himself and he's stronger than base ssj 3 Goku 400 time and 160000 base for goku And Goku super Saiyan 4 played with that baby and to be able to fight Goku baby turned into a great ape with a 1000× more blood vessels that a regular Saiyan needs So the super Saiyan 4 is 1 billion 600 million multiplier and that not even has his power

[@ggunparkk]

Yk he missed a lot of times where goku's power skyrockets within a day or two in gt

[@diegobrando7057]

@@ggunparkk I think bro never watched gt

[@ggunparkk]

@@diegobrando7057 yeah I too think that because dude basically included every power jump Goku black had but for Goku he was like... alright not enough evidence

[@diegobrando7057]

@@ggunparkk yeah + base gt Goku is a lot stronger than base super goku and I don't think master UI is above 1.6 billion multiplier

[@voldibayizitunda2178]

​@@diegobrando7057Hold up, Golden great ape isn't 1000x stronger than ssj3. Its 10 or 100x( highball) than ssj3. And by even if its 1000x - impossible given its essentially a super saiyan oozaru - the multiplier for ssj4 should be 160 million.

[@rhysmendozavilla2378]

Every gt/ssj4 glazer needs to see this

[@1dfr33]

Great vid, you even high balled it for the gt fans and he cant keep up. I love ssj4 but it just doesnt cut it to super's scale

[@humanman9920]

Did u watch the series ? No u didn't , let's not talk about highballs and lowballs here . Bro really said " imma be super nice to admit what is absolutely proven as a fact in the series but ignore more info since the point it don't fit my dbs glazing " 😂

[@1dfr33]

@@humanman9920 bro I probably watched it before you were born and rewatched it more than you have. Gt doesn't hold up to super, basic reading comprehension will tell you that

[@humanman9920]

​@@1dfr33" basic reading comprehension " the comedy is good and all but we both know u don't have that sit down buddy , at least u admit u are a dbs glazer even after watching it , saying " i'm being super nice for admitting an absolute well established facts from the series " is not highballing things , before i even get to the outright false claims in this video about sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time that goes directly against what the series stated as well .

[@1dfr33]

@@humanman9920 first off if you're going to bring up suguru space you're already at a loss. One: the fear is equatable to breaking the hyperbolic time chamber Two: there are different levels of infinities, even if suguru space was infinite it wouldn't matter as it has no other space time functions. Destroying a non complete infinite space does Not equate to destroying an entire macrocosm with fist clashes

[@Spooderman-r6y]

@@1dfr33 " the feat is equatable to breaking HTC " u're the one already at a loss with that reach bro . Subspace and sugoroku space are the only places stated beyond time and space , being an infinite without being bound by time and space is greater than the infinite is bound by time and space , which is the macrocosm . Try again .

[@smharyanto4660]

F*ck power scaling. Ss4 is still the best dragon ball transformation. It has cool design and great lore behind it. All transformation in super only color swap lol

[@The_Blue_Otaku]

Facts

[@Jakedasnake0426]

That’s all you GT fans say “it’s just a recolor” first of all Super Saiyan God has a nice lore behind it. And Ultra Instinct is actually based on a real life concept. And Ultra Instinct SLAMS Super Saiyan 4 that goofy hairy ape of a Form. And UI is way cooler than SSJ4 in my opinion anyway

[@siei3i37]

​@@Jakedasnake0426I agree that UI slams but Goku with a mullet goes kinda hard.

[@HyperMasenko]

In your dreams

[@unyieldingrage1389]

FACTS 💯

[@godzillakingofthemonsters5812]

I think it's dishonest to say that the god form multiplier is consistently as high as it was during the ritual. Broly was still being affected by Super Saiyan Vegeta's attacks when the latter became God and while he did toy with base Broly just by getting the oozaru amp Broly closed the gap. The Kefla point is still kinda valid, as Caulifla and Kale were about Goku's level in 2, yet her fusion dominated God form even in base. That's a point for fusion>. Though he was weakened to begin with so that's also on the table. So arguing Rosè is a higher amp than fusion is illogical, it's just Super Saiyan by like 5 guides. HE was stronger than Blue. Not the form. Goku does scale to Omega. To some extent. The Dragon Fist was done by normal SS4, as we don't see that red energy from when he was powered up against Baby or Syn before. It's also kinda dumb to say they don't scale to his aura alone when Goku and Vegeta did stun him a few times with attacks. Black stomps anyway though, just far higher scaling chain and growth.

[@yfr7759]

The form can still be argued as high as it was during its initial use. Ikari Broly can just be argued to be far higher than a normal Oozaru amp.

[@godzillakingofthemonsters5812]

@@yfr7759 With no evidence. Broly powered up after that amp, sure, but that's just Broly's growth, no evidence for a stronger form

[@yfr7759]

⁠yeah that’s fair

[@humanman9920]

Except the fact that Sugoroku space simply outscales all of dbs Goku and black , and this video is overall dishonest , of course also specifically with the copium claims about sugoroku space having quantifiable space and time ( because i say so ) argument and comparing it to HTC.

[@godzillakingofthemonsters5812]

@@humanman9920 So you have zero evidence at all. Well too bad Suguro space exists in the macrocosm.

[@IsaiahJones-rw1pc]

This whole "gT maSsIvElY oUtScAlEs sUpEr lOl" thing was popularized by Official Divine and Kazi and I absolutely hate it Edit: Not saying Divine and Kazi are bad scalers, they're not but their take on GT's scaling is absolutely abysmal

[@Sergeant-Steve]

No one asked

[@lordraiden7397]

Yeah and worst all those two are already reaching by scaling Dragon Ball Characters to be outerversal.

[@DragonBallsolosyourverse]

It does beat super Gt goku destroyed a entire dimension in base

[@OneShotMan2]

@@DragonBallsolosyourverse was it stated to be infinite cuz vegeta destroyed the time chamber which is infinite

[@Sergeant-Steve]

@@DragonBallsolosyourverse the guy in the video also skipped over that he defeated omega shenron and by him just existing was going to destroy the macrocosm of universe7 including infinite realms

[@Mrazomirr]

I dissagree. Im with the yt KAZI on this one. (GT goku vs Super goku)

[@guitaristkuro8898]

The only crazy scaling I’ve seen for GT is when people scale Omega Shenron. Which is universal and higher.

[@smananderson09]

So when goku one shooting suguroku space which is outerversal mind you is not a crazy feat🤨

[@kakashi6294]

@@guitaristkuro8898 but he literally passively destroys universe 7...

[@X02Overdose]

Thank god you didn't GT glaze lol

[@furiousgamerxz5141]

Yeah he just glazed Super

[@siei3i37]

​@@furiousgamerxz5141You're just mad that GT's scaling pales in comparison to super.

[@furiousgamerxz5141]

@@siei3i37 nah I’m not mad, I’m used to people thinking that GT pales in comparison cause they didn’t pay attention when watching

[@siei3i37]

@@furiousgamerxz5141 We did. It still doesn't compare.

[@furiousgamerxz5141]

@@siei3i37 clearly you didn’t since you believe GT doesn’t compare to Super, I don’t know if you just didn’t pay attention to GT or you believe the video which very clearly leaves things out and changes things when it comes to GT

[@nycto5335]

I know this is all for fun and games but how are there still people down in the comments that still believe anything GT comes close to anything Super? 💀

[@UnexpectedWonder]

Because people don't know how to actually Powerscale Super. They overblow it and underrate DBGT.

[@humanman9920]

Because u literally just watched a misinforming video that u liked the narrative of ? And people who actually watch the series before claiming sh*t exist ?

[@UnexpectedWonder]

@@humanman9920 Indeed! 👊👊✊✊

[@RetroMagnus761]

1:29 it's very important to note that Goku never specifies which version of Buu he's referring to in that statement with Rildo. For all we know he could just be talking about Fat Buu which would make the most sense since he's the only Buu that's actually still around after the time skip. Side note: base GT Goku is NOT stronger than Buuhan

[@humanman9920]

" Side note " And just u made u eligible to declare that ? Statement about " Buu " applies to whichever character is Buu , sugoroku space feat in base doesn't only outclass dbz but dbs Goku as a whole too .l And don't bother parroting the false claims learnt from this video like " quantifiable space and time like HTC " that's nowhere in the show , cool and all till someone actually watched it.

[@Justice_collects-xn5yn]

Now we’re going non-canon super Saiyan for slams😊

[@quaydon]

Broku is in someone’s corner throwing a massive fit

[@iRoNiiC_H3R0]

Would have preferred to see golden frieza vs goku black

[@joeker5208]

Even that Buu scaling only works if you correlate GT to Z. Which in itself has issues

[@airdraco3678]

It isn't and gt goku is 10yrs after z and keeps up with the scaling and isn't on super bs "Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no

[@enderbroski5204]

I disagree with just about everything said in this video

[@BasedKuuTooGourmet]

Yeah, it’s a fine video though.

[@KVI76]

With what?

[@enderbroski5204]

@@KVI76 the multipliers he gives for ssj4 and golden Oozaru FAR too low, how he gauges that SSJ3 Goku is equal to “base” baby (even though it’s just super saiyan, we saw baby in base beforehand) also he just ignores the rest of the statement and focuses on “even”, but it says that baby is more than an even match for him, so that’s a weak point. Lonk also denies the 1000x multiplier boost baby got with a pretty weak argument, him equaling destroying the suguroku space to making a temporary portal out of the time chamber, him saying that Goku didn’t get stronger by the time of super 17, it’s probably even a downplay to say ssj Goku is just above majoob since he did train with him offscreen. He also ignored the statement Myuu made which said Super 17 was the strongest machine mutant, that would put him above Golden Oozaru Baby, and that Super 17 resorted to absorbing SSJ Goku’s blasts, unlike with the others he fought before, which once again shows his power. He says that Full Power SSJ4 is temporary, even though there is no evidence to suggest that it is. He also says that potara multiplier is still A multiplied by B, but that equation is blatantly retconned by Vados, so it would only apply to GT’s timeline and the manga. He uses the Vegito = SSJ4 guidebook statement even though it’s contradicted in the show itself.

[@humanman9920]

Because it's misinformation XD Good thing

[@humanman9920]

​@@enderbroski5204 Yup , properly observing info about sugoroku space says it all , base gt goku since then has been stronger than all of dbs Goku upto now . And this dude really tried to push that dbz Vegito comparable to GT Ssj4 again bro is one massive coper

[@heckr0125]

I’m pretty sure Goku absorbing the power of SSJG was just anime crap and it wasn’t in the manga. The Goku Black arc went extremely differently in the manga as well.

[@lonkstakes]

Good thing this video is about the anime continuity?

[@gabrielp9665]

in realtà puoi dire il contrario riguardo a Goku che non ha assorbito il God nella forma base come ha fatto nell'anime e lo puoi fare grazie a due momenti solo che il secondo puoi interpretarlo come vuoi 1- è l'adattamento manga della prima metà di RoF pubblicato da toyotaro nella rivista Vjump nel 2015 dove si vede Goku forma base che si allena e dietro di esso c'è la silouette di SSG Goku e per questo puoi ipotizzare che la sua forma base è ssg come l'anime solo che questi capitoli non sono stati pubblicati nel manga perché prima che potesse adattare l'arco narrativo nel manga avevano velocizzato lo sviluppo di medesimo arco narrativo nell'anime e quindi non aveva senso farlo nel manga e quindi è stato ridotto ad un semplice mini riassunto di quello che è successo 2 è l'affermazione fatta da Dende nella saga di moro dove nel mentre che stava curando Goku dopo che moro lo ha impalato nel petto afferma che il ki di Goku ha raggiunto il livello divino

[@ryzen1296]

Honestly, I think having fusion as AxB is broken cause think of it as Goku being 100, Vegeta being 99, MUI being 50 and UE being 51. AxB of Goku and Vegeta would be stronger than Goku x MUI or Vegeta x UE which is downright unreal. That would mean Vegito and Gogeta in DBS were already way beyond MUI and the upcoming UE Vegeta.

[@Tahmeedyeager345]

It is what it is. Although it is highly debatable in the community about just how big is the fusion multiplier. Some ways this could make sense is if we look at the growth of power of some of this characters. Super saiyan blue or god multipliers are very high and they themselves are debatable. But let's say super saiyan God is about as strong or stronger then a Hypothetical super saiyan vegito from battle of gods as goku said in the battle of god arc. Base vegito in the Daizenshuu is stated to be stronger then super saiyan 3. At a low ball let's say base vegito is over 400x stronger then goku's base. Then in super saiyan vegito is 20,000x. Assume that's the god multiplier for simplicity and low ball. Since super saiyan blue is 50x super saiyan God. Super saiyan blue should be 1,000,000x. Let us assume that goku in base is a 2 . Then in super saiyan blue he would be 2,000,000x. The super exciting guidebook says that it is AxB likely referring to base goku x base vegeta. Not some ssj goku times ssj vegeta. Even seth or many other scalers have explained it a lot better. Going by this multiplier base vegito would be 4. This is absolutely nonsense as with how the dbs portrays him he should many times higher then blue goku. But then again this could be that it is us assuming 1 in our powerscale. The multiplier really is supposed to be not a single fighter getting a set increase by a transformation. But literally magnifying his strength with almost his strength. Which would make base vegito so much stronger then blue goku and blue vegeta combined that it would be broken. Their are some theories saying how it might make sense. Also don't worry about the ultra instinct multiplier. Ultra instinct by all interpretations going by guides,scans and almost everything is literally implied to be above fusion. Atleast super saiyan blue level fusions. I mean even though dragon ball heroes isn't canon, it has atleast canon form multipliers. Goku and vegeta fuse and then vegito in super saiyan blue kaioken times 20( I know you might think i am yapping. But this is what happened.) That vegito peak power fights cumber. But vegito loses and defuses. Then goku literally goes ultra instinct and dominates cumber. Again absurd, messy and inconsistent. I know.☠☠☠

[@liammcguire1954]

Why you gotta do SSJ4 Goku like that 😭. He’s being bullied worse than Trunks

[@shirosatsuma4946]

he didn't do anything, he's just way weaker

[@freezasama5802]

Because fans love to hate on ssj4 even though Toei themselves the creators of GT and Super made him equal to blue

[@liammcguire1954]

@@freezasama5802 SSJ4 ain’t equal to Blue. Heroes doesn’t count as those are different versions of Goku that are far stronger than their main and original counterparts. Xeno Goku has some god ki unlike his original GT counterpart as he went through the events of Battle of Gods. SSG has better feats than SSJ4

[@aka-fusion8909]

@@liammcguire1954 loser

[@freezasama5802]

@@liammcguire1954 incorrect

[@cryptonvisor9501]

Super has ventured through multiversal feats, GT didn't. Nuff said.

[@SonZackSSJ9k]

Even with your downplaying Manga Args, manga Goku Black slams.

[@IsaiahJones-rw1pc]

The Manga just scales over the anime

[@SonZackSSJ9k]

@@IsaiahJones-rw1pc Fax

[@cm4n63]

goku black has access to regular super Saiyan; i think rose is moreso a blue or ssg counterpart, since black likens it to him (a God) controlling a saiyan's power

[@giannismh8242]

Akira Toriyama, rest his soul, said that End of Z Goku is above anyone before, meaning that base gt Goku from the very beginning of the series is above End of Z Goku who’s above super vegito. So Goku thinking super vegito would lose to beerus and then beating him in ssg doesn’t say shit because super saiyan Goku at the very beginning of gt would already be at bare minimum 50 times stronger than super vegito and we’re not even taking into consideration that he trained uub for half a decade straight.

[@Pworontocokwala]

i think this was very clear from the beginning =) but i'm confused about the part where "people think SS God is not as strong as fusions" and then proceed to list all the different reasons why fusions ARE indeed stronger than SS God

[@yfr7759]

Pre SSJG Amp Fusion is inferior, but after the God Amp Fusion is superior because both fusees are much stronger.

[@luizkorynga]

@@yfr7759 yes, Goku felt the ki he couldn't feel and determined with complete clarity that the fusions were not stronger than Beerus makes sense

[@Geozone117]

Gt fanboys gonna cry

[@theinvestigativemillennial9381]

😅😅 no we ain't this guy doesnt know much

[@zero.9831]

@@theinvestigativemillennial9381 No one asked? Thanks for outing yourself tho.

[@Dr.RoseDB]

@@zero.9831he just mentioned it.. man you super fans are pathetic 😂

[@RackerTheRascalMashup]

Watch out for the toieverse arguments lmao

[@DragonBallsolosyourverse]

I dont really think the movies take place within gt or super.

[@freezasama5802]

Well both super anime and GT arent canon so they are canon to the Toei verse so that's not a bad argument to make

[@thelettucebarrel7784]

@@freezasama5802 The toeiverse isn’t a real thing.

[@freezasama5802]

@@thelettucebarrel7784 yes it is

[@thelettucebarrel7784]

@@freezasama5802 No, it isn’t.

[@eitanbitan8791]

Quick question about GT SSJ4 Goku: is this whole fight would be different if we took GT power miltiplier but with an adult Goku (Post 10 years of trainning with Uub) who didn't turn into a kid?

[@terrillwilliams1515]

3:41 actually he is a lot stronger than this because he absorbed the energy of four Saiyans who were stronger than the four Super Saiyans that gave Goku energy in Battle of Gods that made him feel super strong but was only concerned about not feeling like a God when he was trying to become a God and surpass Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto. Baby then proceeds to power up even more by absorbing the energy of everybody he is controlling which includes 17, 18, Z fighters, everybody on the lookout, and anybody else that is really strong or considered strong on that planet.

[@airdraco3678]

gt goku needs 0 cope feats not only is the movie scaling with gt goku and thanks to his instincts he basically has a pseudo UI which he won't need but for just gt goku "Gt" Goku Outscales In Feats Since he is consistent with his dbz counterpart buuhan was going to rip open dimensions base gt goku is fighting beings more powerful then buu or even buuhan ssj4 goku on top of basically getting autododges would outscale and fodder rose form black goku not even close in terms of forms yes rose at base has a higher amp character-wise with there amps hell no