Why has Stealth Rock not been banned?

Discord: / discord
Patreon: / pokemonbkc

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock-the-most-harmful-move-in-the-metagame.42211/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/more-thoughts-on-stealth-rock.48398/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock.81700/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/entry-hazards-are-they-broken.3482832/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-debating-thread-stealth-rocks.3482943/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stealth-rock-less-ladder.3488323/ www.smogon.com/forums/threads/can-we-talk-about-stealth-rock.3585730/

[@gz7006]

The reason Ryan Gosling isn't the one asking this question is because he's a Gen IV Uber player and has a love/hate relationship with hazards. He's currently trying out Breloom that he swears is good in very niche cases. Source: I am connected to him through my mind's eye.

[@donkkut5003]

my biggest problem with this is not specifically with SR, but in general how we sometimes avoid creating ladders and such to actually test how the metagame would be without certain elements, this is what gets me particularly heated in the terastilization discussion "where's evidence that the tier is better without x?" where's the opportunity to play the tier without it? it's reversible anyways

[@GrandemagicoWall]

Switching should be punished, being Fire/Flying should not.

[@Poo_Brain_Horse]

Switching is punished, you give up your turn. Switching is sometimes even more heavily punished than just staying in and dying.

[@C3l3bi1]

@@Poo_Brain_Horse "ou give up your turn." How is taking 20% and threarning to setup "giving up your turn" My dude thats the equivalent of saying u are punished because clicked a move lol. Being punished for bad plays does not = BEING actually punished for the mechanic. you are punished for playing shit thats literally every single move ever. the simple fact is SWITCHING is the single most powerful move in pokemon and with regenerator and other such things its just not feasible to have a game without stealth rocks in single.

[@Clooger-]

​@@C3l3bi1Cry more paragraphs cuck

[@Cr3zant]

@@Poo_Brain_Horse Yet every doubles player will talk about how absurdly switch heavy singles are and how pathetically slow it is as a result. If switching had legitimate punishment the game might actually be viable to run in a real tournament setting.

[@HowlingOneify]

​@@Cr3zantthe vgc players who talk about singles like that are generally people who don't actually play or understand singles. There are plenty of vgc players who understand singles and that it's simply a different format.

[@shenFen-jf2jk]

taking half or a quarter of health if you're weak to it is kind of ridiculous If it had a flat rate it would be less egregious. SR actually makes rock types worse since in the teambuilder you'll try to avoid rocks weak pokemon.

[@enoyna1001]

On top of Rock moves being stupidly inaccurate with some exceptions.

[@Mushrooms683]

Oh yeah. Huh. Stealth rocks would be better if it were, like, stealth pixies. (They just pop out of the ground and go boom!) Fairy is a worse offensive type but a better type in general so it would provide a nerf. I wounder what the best stealth type would be. Def not ice or ground. Maybe steel? 1. Not that good of an offensive type, so not that much has a 4x weakness to it. 2. Not that good of an offensive type, so wouldn't be a nerf to steel types. 3. Fairy's weak to it. Built-in fairy nerf! 4. Already precedent for it. The steel spikes from g-max steel surge can make them.

[@tomwantshelp]

There should be one for every type just to turn the game into “who can knock off the opponent’s boots fastest?”

[@monsterhunter30001]

​@@tomwantshelpThe was an OM similar to that concept a while back...

[@Cr3zant]

@@Mushrooms683 Rock better offensively than Fairy? If it was ground I could see the argument, but the only notable types Rock is effective against are Fire and Flying, compared to Fairy's Dragon, Fighting, and Dark.

[@Puffindefenceforce]

I've been calling the reason stealth rock isn't banned Stockholm Syndrome for years as a joke. Hilarious BKC basically confirms that is real here.

[@McDinkle69]

More like rockholm syndrome am i right

[@Puffindefenceforce]

@@McDinkle69 I chortled

[@rrteppo]

I just had a guy say that Ubers is not a good tier because the meta is too centralized. So I looked at the top usage mons in every gen, and the moment Rocks is introduced you get nothing but Ground and Steel types in top usage slots. Out of the top 10 in every OU from DPP forward you could build a 6 man sand team.

[@peebeeoh3210]

Based and Volcaronapilled

[@vyktorehon5995]

This is volcarona propaganda

[@thomasxl200]

Based and Ho-Oh pilled

[@vyktorehon5995]

@@thomasxl200 imagine not having regenerator and insane spdef lol

[@thomasxl200]

@@vyktorehon5995 you kids don't know what it was like back in the wild days of Gen IV

[@vyktorehon5995]

@@thomasxl200 you're right, I only started playing comp Pokémon when boots was legal

[@Akumo69]

I think a good way to test this would be to host a large tournament in a tier like gen 4 ou but with stealth rocks banned. Particpants would be playing at the highest possible caliber so I think it might give more of a glimpse of what a world without stealth rocks would be like. I can see a lot of uu pokemon having high viability rankings in ou with the abscence of rocks.

[@didgeridude8430]

I would love to see this happen.

[@Gold_Gamer_100]

I would vouch for this

[@terryscott524]

charizard bros... it's our time

[@the_blahhh]

I know I already said a lot in the "What if SR was in gen 3?" video, but imagine if Game Freak patched ORAS tomorrow and replaced Stealth Rock with Stealth Fire. It also hits every pokemon in the game, just using Fire type instead of Rock type. Now so many pokemon that you used to rely on, like Ferrothorn, Skarm, Scizor, Excadrill, Amoonguss, Mega-Metagross are now completely crippled. You scream "this is stupid! A move shouldn't singlehandedly be able to invalidate so many potentially useful and healthy pokemon by clicking on it once." Ah but the defenders come out and say, "No we need it! Otherwise how would we be able to check the monsters that are SD scizor and Serperior without it! And now that we have it around, we can use it to check Aegislash, Genesect, Mega-Luke and Mega-Mawile!" Yea, I'm arguing against a strawman, but it's such an egregious move that I think would make people feel differently if their favorite defensive stalwart was hit tomorrow by GF. Anyway thanks BKC for at validating that I'm not completely crazy, maybe it's gotten even more normalized with HBD and more Defog access, but when I was playing pretty much everyone agreed the move was unbelievably dumb.

[@C3l3bi1]

the problem u are mentioning is simple, steel types are the core defensive types flying types are not, fire is an insane offensive typing and crippling all steels would be nutz. crippling fliers on the other hand is not nearly as bad, as those can already avoid spikes and have access to roost. the amount of steels in the game is insane because u need to check so many mons, but u can pretty be fine if your flier takes 25%. imagine if ferro and scizor and such would get killed by firerocks that would so mess up the defensive meta game that alot of stuff would be broken, with rock types the main victim are fliers as bug types are general shit anyways and ice types are only really good offensively and care less about rocks.

[@the_blahhh]

@@C3l3bi1 Are you really sure about that, or is that just what you're assuming? Rock is also an insane offensive type - it hits 4 types super effectively, and is only resisted by 3. Fire hits 4 types for SE, and is resisted by 4 types. In fact, in a vacuum on the type chart, rock is the best offensive type in the game, are you sure that people just aren't running as many rock weaks, because you know, SR exists? And fire should also be a core defensive type if it weren't for SR, especially as their stats have been getting better rounded over time. It has six (SIX!!) resistances and is only outdone by steel and can also be used to check itself. If we didn't have SR in gens 4-6, and people were able to play Fire to its defensive strengths, like people were playing with defensive Mega Zard X, Talonflame, Volcanion, and Rotom-H, and then you introduced SR later, that defensive metagame would also be completely messed up. Also what makes you think flying is not a core defensive type? Being immune to earthquake is a big deal and turns it from spammable to something you can't lock yourself into.

[@klodpraisor]

I feel like this is a trap argument. If you replace pursuit with fire type, then all of a sudden you can also prove that pursuit is broken because it now traps/beats all of these mons, but the removal of pursuit in gen 8 sort of proved (at least imo, and I see a decent amount of agreement) that pursuit overall had a positive impact for the meta. Heck, you can prove flamethrower is broken if it was a water typing move (insert scald hate here). I’m not disagreeing with the fact rock is inherently unfair due to its typing effect, I’m just saying that this particularly argument doesn’t really make sense to me.

[@ciarzyx]

I wish rock types could absorb stealth rock like how poison types can absorb tspikes

[@EmersonCRVG]

Would be a great buff that would make them better defensively compared to steel

[@slothape]

I never understood why Stealth Rock is allowed to be the only passive damage that has type weaknesses. Thats something that would break other moves like leech seed, but the rule for a long time was that type weaknesses only applies to attacking moves. Stealth Rock getting to be an exception should definitely make you question if its actually fair.

[@prthedisaster]

they took like 5 gens to think of a new passive damage with weaknesses now with salt cure and it kinda seems more well thought out to counter the Walling Types. But who needed to run salt on bugs and ices?

[@caldw615]

Can you imagine an Ice version of Stealth Rock? Garchomp, Dragonite and Landorus would be completely fucked

[@DemonDragon43]

tbh I think neutral vs everyone rocks would still be broken af. It'd just be a better version of 1 layer of spikes, and one layer of spikes is already super gamechanging by itself in spite of fliers being immune. Think about say great tusk now taking 12.5% instead of 3%

[@mariusvfl1848]

​@@DemonDragon43I agree with what you are saying, but atleast it would not invalidate certain Pokemon just based of theyr typing. Fire bug and ice are not strong types to begin with.

[@tysondennis1016]

@@caldw615Okay, I’m thinking of an Ice-type Stealth Rock in Ice Slick, but airborne Pokémon and Ice-types are immune. It does more damage to heavier Pokémon, instead of doing more damage based on type matchups.

[@DeckKnight]

Stealth Rock would be more palatable if it applied resistance, but not weakness. That would make it equivalent to a single layer of Spikes on most mons, but not so powerful it nearly invalidates four types in the builder.

[@ElectricSh33ps]

Stealth Rocks were one of the reasons why I started to play competitive doubles over singles, since they aren't really relevant there, needing dedicated spots on the team to set up and remove hazards just felt annoying to me. I understand why they are used but it just feels like they are way too overturned. If they did less damage and weren't so widely distributed (Seriously, there are Pokemon that don't learn any other rock type moves but can learn stealth rock for some reason) they would probably be fine, but as they are right now they just feel like too much and have felt like that for a long time.

[@chadzard4]

Fax.

[@rrteppo]

I didn't mind Rocks themselves, I was annoyed by Lando-T on every single team. Which is a byproduct of Rocks.

[@CubeBizz]

This post was brought to you by 4x Rock weakness gang.

[@hiphops8082]

I remember people talking about a boots ban in gen 8, and that never made any sense to me. Boots were only used so much to deal with stealth rock. They were a reaction to a broken element and people wanted them banned. If rocks were banned, I don’t think boots would’ve been nearly as common since spikes and t spikes and webs are generally harder to fit, and have more counter play than boots and magic guard.

[@lesqueegee]

I think the issue with banning rocks in gen 8 stems from tier king weavile being able to safely switch in and destroy teams with greater ease while also having the freedom to run a boosting item rather than boots. Same deal with other oppressive offense mons like volcorona, g-moltres, moltres, and other notable fire or flying types in gen 8 that I can’t remember rn. Rocks are generally healthy to keep the offensive albeit bulky gen 8 meta in check. Edit: just checked gen 8 OU, Oml. Blacepelon, volcanion, DRAGONITE?! I’m so grateful these mons are running boots instead of a boosting item that bowls over any defensive core with just a few right turns.

[@hiphops8082]

@@lesqueegeebroken checking broken is not how ou metagames should be balanced. During current gen 8 there was already talk here and there about weavile being broken. If the only thing keeping it from demolishing the tier is being forced into running boots, stealth rock and weavile should both be tested.

[@lesqueegee]

@@hiphops8082 I don’t recall ever saying broken checked broken. Weavile being broken in gen 8 was just a product of a developing metagame. Dragapult was the best Mon in the tier and ghosts generally excelled because of the absence of pursuit. The only worthwhile dark types were those who made the most of their stabs or those who had the bulk to with stand all of the shadow balls in the tier. Weavile was able to do both while also having ice stab to generally threaten the rest of the meta threats like lando, tran, the slow twins, lele, and was generally a stellar answer to psychics and defensively frail mons, it took advantage of defensive switches by clicking swords dance for more momentum, and it even acted as a switch in to itself as it resisted both of its own stabs. That’s not to say it was unbeatable. Gen 8 is notorious for the defensive backbone of clef, pex, ferro, corv, and the rise of defensive buzzwole sets put weavile’s chance of suspect test in the grave. As if that wasn’t enough, it was still an ice type that lost to stronger priority like dnite espeed, revenge killing from other powerful scarf mons, and it super died to rocks. There have been cases of broken checking broken in other metas. Gen 5 latios, gen 6 megas, gen 7 z moves and triple Regen cores, and at times those over centralizing aspects of the meta have taken away the luster of some gens and some have even gutted any enjoyment you can get from playing them (gen 5 lmao, if you like it then that’s chill but I’m personally not a fan). All of that to say, gen 8 weavile nor stealth rock could ever measure up to this idea that broken beats broken as gen 8 continues to be a fairly defensive and balance oriented metagame with plenty of mons that boast longevity in the face of powerful offense. That’s just how I feel.

[@watery2211]

​@@hiphops8082 The reason people wanted a boots ban in gen 8 OU was mostly due to the pivot heavy meta, not because SR weak pokemon can circumvent their weakness. Being able to keep switching without downsides like hazards. Hazards were a good balancing factor to the very powerful move of switching in pokemon, yet it had a way around it. Also, how does banning stealth rocks add more counterplay to hazards? Running a flying type?

[@hiphops8082]

@@lesqueegee if your not making an argument for broken checking broken, why are you bringing up stealth rock weak threats like weavile and volcarona being kept in check by running boots or being crippled? To me it seems like you were saying that these mons would be broken in a meta game without rocks, so rocks shouldn’t be tested.

[@W0r1dzSHIVfT]

Stealth Rock knock off and scald the trinity of unholy matramony

[@slothape]

If stealth Rock had been a signature move, I think that poke would have been banned. Unless it was really bad, like how sticky web is on mostly weak bug type pokemon.

[@Skyace13]

I actually love the idea of rocks just being weaker. I’ve never really heard people bring up that line of thought. I’ve only ever played competitive pokemon with stealth rocks, just by nature of when I joined. Obviously because of that I’m not necessarily up in arms about stealth rock. I still think a weaker stealth rock would be interesting to test. I think Gen 8 heavy duty boots are so centralizing that to me it really emphasized how broken hazards and specifically stealth rocks are. Also as we’ve seen fewer and fewer removal options available in recent gens it’s become even more of a problem.

[@algar6616]

My biggest problem with rocks is how, with rocks being universal, rock weak types get an across the board nerf. This nerf, to me, feels like it was intentional to punish the flying type which ignores spikes; and in that respect it seems fair. But when bug, ice and fire types get this handicap on top of spike damage it seems excessive. This is exacerbated, imo, by which specific types are rock resists, namely steel and ground which are already phenomenal defensive types. It creates a situation where good defensive types get relatively better, and niche types which would mainly be used for their offensive capabilities cannot afford to switch in/out in order to apply offensive pressure. TLDR: rocks create “bad” types and reinforce “good types”

[@Wizzyhatg]

Oppenheimer called me and said that if you don't make a video on the differences between playing around weather in ADV/DPP OU, Ubers, BW OU, and Gen 6+ non perm weather OU he's going to do it again

[@bhizzle64]

I think one of the big reasons rocks don’t see as much tiering discussion is that they play out their effect over time. Compared to baton pass, which wins the game for you in single explosive moves. Rocks are a slow and insidious killer, which makes it hard to pick up on just how much they warp competitive pokémon.

[@g6iii]

Because switching is the most important Singles mechanic, and giving opportunity cost to that mechanic is vital to progress in a game. HDB made Gen8 so damn fat, and the fact that Urshifu-S and Dracovish survived as long as they did was because they were 2 Pokémon that cut through fat shit like 60% Clef usage without worry E: some of y’all care more about the term “opportunity cost” than what I was talking about 🤣

[@Paltheos]

There's already opportunity cost in the game for switching. That cost is the attacking (or other) move you forego in exchange for the switch. This is very, *very* obvious though and I generally assume most people who say something like this (what you said) think this is not enough. My response (to this hypothetical I made up) is that that's a problem of the power creep that started getting out of hand in gen 4 and not an innate problem of the game.

[@formerlypie8781]

There is still spikes

[@SimonBlueBerry]

@@Paltheos the power creep exists both offensively AND defensively. Back in gen 4 skarmbliss was infamous but nape could apply good pressure by himself and even taking rocks out of the equation the pressure you applied always made some sort of progress The same cannot be said with the ever growing options that allow defensive cores to have an answer for virtually everything that isnt straight up banworthy supported by abilities like regenerator that invalidate the progress you made by simply switching to a more appropriate answer Offense also often has to deal with accuracy checks and major drawbacks of the stronger moves than defense due to the increased fattiness and consistency of defensive cores This is not to say that defense shouldnt be viable or that it doesnt need options to handle the newer and stronger threats but to act like opportunity costs are the same as they were before regen and better cores became available or that power creep only exists one way is disingenuous

[@canasnewell3089]

Stealth rocks are not necessary to do this. I don't know why HDB gets blamed for a problem in gen 8 which is caused by regenerator. When I click on 2 regenerator pokemon over and over, it's because the enemy litterally has no moves to punish that. It turns out that Stealth Rock is a pretty good way to punish that passively. Having to outdamage 33% instead of 21% is a lot harder and thus, you switch over and over. In short, regenerator and stealth rock are honestly just as terrible as each other

[@Dave_Chrome]

​@@Paltheos Recovery moves and Regenerator really push back against that opportunity cost, thank goodness they got nerfed in Gen 9. Not to mention passive recovery, stuff like SpDef Protect Leftovers Heatran used to stick around forever. Add in Grassy Terrain and... IMO hazards are a net benefit. At least after Defog got buffed, and especially since we have boots now. Hell, the whole Rapid Spin -> Spinblock -> Pursuit trap dynamic is itself healthy enough, since people wouldn't only run Ghost types or have Pursuit on their team just for that interaction

[@RedFalcon-op4hx]

I’ve talked about rocks in the spikes video, but I’ll try to think of why it was designed like this as a different comment. It’s probably because spikes are not good in 2v2’s, so the aim was to not only make a hazard that damages flying types. But can deal significant amounts of immediate damage, hence the type effectiveness. GF also seems to have the idea that rock is the strongest offensive type in the game, which is only true in gen 1. (in terms of spreadsheets/theory). It’s super short sighted and a really bad way to execute the move, but the people that work on Pokemon are really bad at predicting their metas. But I’m trying to look at the thought process behind a decision. All tournaments post gen 3 are 2v2, and most gen 3 tournaments were 2v2 so that probably makes this line of thinking more believable.

[@ryanr5541]

SR should hit Flying type super effectively, and that's it, this would compensate for flying type immunity to all other entry hazards. 25% for flying Pokemon, regular damage for every other type in the game No 50% upon switch in bullshit that has obliterated the viability of so many otherwise good Pokemon Volcarona would be busted, but I can live with it being banned for the forseeable future since it's nearly always broken anyway.

[@Poo_Brain_Horse]

Stealth Rock should have been banned in gen 4 / 5. It was wildly centralizing and absolutely dictated the viability of some Pokémon. However in those days even something as "extreme" as banning a non-legendary Pokémon was seen as quite a step, so move bans were off the table. I think if not for the Defog buff and addition of Boots we might have eventually seen a Stealth Rock suspect test.

[@nickpickle7665]

Another exception was gen 9 uu hyper offense team called askov ghost spam, which utilized maushold which has tidy up which removes all hazards and makes hazard stacking on lead a waste and the team didn’t have enough longevity since it was HO to keep setting up rocks

[@EvilApple567]

The biggest issue with rocks imo is simply its distribution. I think Sticky Web is a more potent hazard, sometimes capable of ending games on the spot, but the pool of Mons that receive it is very, very small and almost all of those Mons are strictly relegated to utility due to their legendary ass suckage. Thing is though, those Mons still get used when the effect is warranted (less so in the Boots era obv) because the effect is just that good. Another good example of this is gen 9's Shed Tail where even after Cyclizar was banned, Orthworm stayed problematic (or obnoxious) enough to get the move banned, and it's a pretty shit overall Mon. I really don't know how balanced non-grounded Mons would be sans rocks (especially looking at things like Corv), but their design is clearly flawed regardless.

[@ZeroThreeJuice]

Yup. There’s so many tier staples that get this move, but limit it to shit rock types like Crustle. This would fix the issue in an instant. Rocks is not the problem, it’s that literally everything can use the move. The distribution is clearly too much, there’s only a handful of sticky web and toxic spikers setters but hundreds+ stealth rocker setters for some reason. Sticky webs drawback is that you need to use a dogshit mon to set it as it’s that good of a hazard and stealth rock should be the same. Heavy duty boots is a bandaid fix.

[@danielemmanuel7829]

I was just thinking about this while watching the Spikes video. Happy that there’s a video now to discuss

[@saltlakeatrocity9771]

Stealth rock isnt banned because chip damage is too valuable. But imho SR being a necessary evil is the problem, because theres no viable alternative. imho stealth rock being guaranteed no-risk damage makes it a rather mindless solution. Id personally do three things differently; (a) make SR only deal 12.5% damage to pokemon weak to rock-type regardless of single or double weakness. (b) make pokemon NOT weak to rock take no damage from SR. (c) add an alternative to SR to hit things like bulky water and bulky steel types upon switch in. For example, let's say an electric type hazard called "Conduit" that deals 12.5% specifically to water or steel types that switch in.

[@lucillefrancois150]

Stealth Rock is undeniably one of if not the strongest moves in competitive pokemon, on the same level as something like Baton Pass. The question is if it’s unfair or unfun, and tbh I don’t know. I would be interested in seeing what a no Rocks meta would look like, since I think some mons might actually be good with them gone that are currently fun but not good. Sun teams would probably be super good since Torkoal and Charizard would be freed from running boots and could run Leftovers and Specs instead, making them powerful defensively and as a nuke respectively, which could be cool since sun teams are really fun IMO. And tbh some mons that Rocks check should probably be tested for a ban anyways I have no solid opinion 1 way or the other, and on the surface of it would be happy with either

[@Dave_Chrome]

What is the argument against making Stealth Rock typeless, like a single Spike layer that hits grounded and non-grounded? I've never heard a legitimate reason why that change could be a bad thing It having type effectiveness did sort of make sense if you think about it as being used in conjunction with Spikes, but obviously it gets played out more often just existing on it's own

[@radishhat5736]

The bad thing, like all changes to stealthrock beyond a straight up ban, console accuracy yeah yeah sleepclause etc, but sleepclause is actually an implemented thing in stadium, wackily enough iirc.

[@cise3895]

It’s not really an issue of typeless stealth rocks being a bad idea, it’s that type effectiveness was never the problem. Notice how BKC brings up “12.5%” specifically, over and over again. To put it bluntly, people don’t really care enough to make an argument about it, because making rocks typeless turns from something broken to something that is still broken, but equal in how restrictive it is to everything (save Magic Guard pokes).

[@flo4130]

@@radishhat5736 ok but Stadium is a completely different game from the modern ones, how a spin-off can justify the sleep clause ?

[@mismismism]

Honestly, they should just make rocks work like spikes in the sense that it doesn't apply weakness. I always hated it specifically because it just screws certain types for no reason while there are no equivalents for the other types. The amount of times new cool looking Pokemon come out that everyone knows will go no where because stealth rock exists and they happen to be fire, flying or ice type or some mixture of those, it really kills the hype for a lot of Pokemon and ice does not need another roadblock against it defensively.

[@Arterial449]

It's not even that difficult to visualize or quantify the impact of rocks. We can make a rough tally of how many times you switch in a game (including forced switch-ins after a knockout), which varies wildly depending on the meta and the gen, but lets say 15. 15 x 12.5% = 187.5% - literally from one button Sure you can argue that a large portion of this is "ineffective" damage so its less useful than a strong single hit, but the sheer consistency of taking on average almost two health bars away from six is just pretty bonkers, no matter what discount you think is appropriate on damage over multiple turns and targets. It's also pretty strange they decided to make it Rocks instead of any other type. Rock offense is pretty much the most inconsistent type with either limpdick BP special moves or physical moves that always have crappy accuracy. Clearly any typed hazard would have their problem but I would have thought focusing on either the theme of offense (so something like Elec / Ice) or making it more thematically appropriate (like a Ground type hazard because thats literally where you're fighting) would have made much more sense. Given Pokemon is balanced around VGC it would make sense for SR to be like the way it is, as SR is still trash in Doubles. But given the move wasn't balanced for Singles play I would have thought that it would come to the community to balance it.

[@rface0]

I've heard the argument that GSC Snorlax is actually healthy for that metagame because teams would be *less* varied without it there and the evidence is there to back it up. I don't really get that feeling from banning Stealth Rocks.

[@moonstone815]

I think a cool video idea would be to talk about how newer metagames influenced older metas. Like how more people started using clefable in gen 4 after it was dominant in newer gens.

[@siddhantkamble9502]

I know you haven't played much new gens but can you pls make a vid with your thought on boots? I know you made one but it was a long time ago. Would like to hear your current thoughts on them.

[@batly1122]

Here from FalseSwipe, great content my man

[@FennekMaster]

Personally think SR would be more palatable if the damage ranges by type effectiveness was tightened a bit like only doing 16.5% to mons weak to it and 25% to mons quad weak to it. That being said, I don't have too much issue with SR in general, an entry hazard that hits levitaters and flying mons is pretty neat and even the centralizing aspect of it doesn't really bother me too much since there's a lot more reasonable counter play to it than something like Baton Pass and Shadow Tag.

[@tysondennis1016]

If Stealth Rock was banned, Charizard could run Belly Drum again.

[@HexenDarkside]

I HATE stealth rocks. I would love it to be deleted, but that isn't happening so I always thought a toxic spike like thing should happen with rock types coming in and deleting them in order to shore up with either a def+spdef boost or a full heal. That may sound too much, and it probably is just removing the rocks would be enough, I just want stealth rock users to suffer in every way imaginable and have them buff their opponent for having the evil, soulless intention to use it in the first place.

[@KingThor128]

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum: my question is, why the hell hasnt Heavy Duty Boots gotten an item clause as one per team? Stall just got entirely out of hand stacking with fat mons with regenerator that arent worn down by any hazards at all.

[@dysr]

Neither gen 8 nor gen 9 OU are dominated by stall though. Gen 8 OU is predominately balance, while gen 9 leans offence.

[@GravityIsFalling]

Except stall isn’t used often in gen 8?

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

i remember there was a brief time in gen 9 where they wanted to potentially suspect garg for salt cure….which is hilarious since it basically acts like stealth rock + t spike put together

[@jirehtheprovider]

Oh wow i remember these forums talks. Simply, a particular post rally cascaded to having a council ban on many people who bashed for a demanded forced removal of Stealth Rock in their simulator

[@Mushrooms683]

Can you do a video on why there aren't forced tiering drops? It's kind of annoying how there are literally no defoggers in zu, (the only rapid spinner is Delibird), so I feel something like Dartrix could be really healthy for the metagame. Or some earlier gen Pokémon being forced to remain in a tier forever because noobs keep using them. Like if a Pokémon's healthy for a metagame and wouldn't be overpowered, why does it have to stay in a higher tier just because it's also good in that tier? It would also remove that annoying thing where new pokemon slooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwlllllllllllyyyyyyyyyy drop from Ou after being dropped. I just wanna use hisuian avalugg in Zu goddamnit! Obviously this would only happen with a large majority of the competent player base's approval, but I don't see how it could be of any harm. Forced tier rises already do happen, so why not tier drops?

[@dysr]

They are using a new system that allows new pokemon to quickly drop from OU to low tiers now, Articuno went straight to PU during the first tier shifts after Home compatibility dropped iirc.

[@jebx7801]

Ice type rocks sounds even more broken

[@justcallmeleonardo]

I never really loved stealth rock personally. Always felt like such a free click for how good it is, like buffed knock off. Never expect it to be banned tho, it's just an expected part of gens since gen4 at this point.

[@grauenritter9220]

They really need to nerf stealth rock. I'm not comfortable with a ban but I do think the mechanic is oppressive. It should be 1/8 for regular 3/16 for weakness, and 1/4 for double weakness. Resist should be floored at 1/16. while we are here, spikes should also be the same, 1/8 to 3/16 to 1/4. we want to hurt floaty superman but no need to break the wings of flyers.

[@ostint912]

So what would you say is more important keeping rocks off or putting them on the other side?

[@Dudeness1994]

8:08 but isn't that the same as with pursuit, it used to be a staple of the game and now it is a afterthought

[@jerry3115]

It's less of an afterthought when you got spectrier or dragapult or something running around but I see what you mean

[@alfredsupersauce]

I would like to see gamefreak nerf stealth rock’s distribution. It’s such a common move on a lot of good Pokémon. If they took it away from the good ones and left it on some bad ones it would be a relevant nerf to the move and give weak Pokémon a viable niche. It could also just end up eliminating the move from OU play but still be just as prevalent in lower tiers, but it’d be interesting to test.

[@madvorakCZ]

Please make a video about playing DPP teams without Rapid Spin.

[@elYIiLy]

dude you could do an entire series about what ou would look like without rocks

[@tkc5980]

Back when I was a newbie I had this thought, of course far simpler but the same idea. Why is a move needed on every serious team? How does that not constrain creativity, and now that I have years of experience you reminded me of that very thought train that I abandoned years ago. I do think that we should at least try to kill SR, the very fact that it creates an unnecessary type power imbalance is enough for me to say that it facilitates brokenness more than it constrains it. If pretty much all types were on equal footing the range of possible checks for most pokemon would expand. Most likely creating a more balanced metagame (after some things are banned of course)

[@C3l3bi1]

thats just not a good way to look at it, all types are not equal fire and flying are better then most types and trying to make "equal" types would lead to insane inequality because certain types like grass for example would be useless. as they too many ressitances and weaknesses. rocks exist cuz fliers are stupid strong, and so are fires.

[@simonscience5846]

As someone who has played monotype competitivley, I can guarantee the metagame suffers because of stealth rocks. Imagine having to run a full team of six pokemon with one of the types being weak to stealth rocks on each pokemon. Heavy Duty boots dont help like you think they would because your still sacrificing an item slot while your opponent isint. Even worse with the restricted pokedex and reduced defog movepool, some types cant even remove rocks effectivley. I've never found it fun how stealth rocks are *required* on every team. Each time stealth rocks enter the picture, your not playing pokemon anymore, your playing stealth rocks. You better be good at the hazards song and dance or your gonna lose! Should have been banned ages ago and the biggest failure of tiering of all of smogon, and thats saying something.

[@cynicalpolarity2214]

The rocks really do be stealthy.

[@dinosaur_ryusaki7758]

Hi, BKC there's a theorem which you should make a video about is the flareon theorem. It won't be the same as False swipe gaming on movepool, it's about people thinking a pokémon "sucks" so they'll put in on the bottom every time and tries to push it over and over. It's more on the psychological factor behind this. By far Flareon has actually some successful good times in OU, but people can't see it. And I can't tell the number of pokémon in the same situation.

[@donovanchilton5817]

Remember Gen 5 no stealth rock OU towards the end of gen 5? That was my ish. Sun teams running wild

[@donovanchilton5817]

Haha he mentioned it. Nice

[@hatsudopia5085]

Idk if it's a video yet but what if rocks were in old gens but especially in advanced

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

here you go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXWmoH6Prd-FhtE

[@pacmanboss256]

growing up on gen 4/5 I would say stealth rock is just a part of teambuilding and it doesn't seem broken because of just how used to it I am

[@willjoyce5013]

That's like Stockholm Syndrome lol

[@nothanksthough]

Victim mentality

[@Clooger-]

I guess gun violence and r&pe is ok then since I'm in a high crime area. What is this dog water ass argument?

[@MrEntinen]

Tiering is wild in every meta. Had a long argument on showdown (my bad, should have known better) about the current stage of gen9 random battles. As things stand there is a monthly level adjustment to bring most things to as close to 50% win rate as possible. Atm the winrates are fairly balanced (best mons have mere 51.5% winrate) and aside from edge cases of rolling 0 fairy resists against zacian, there really isn't good and bad mons to get. And then there are the 3 stooges who have long since managed to reach lv 100 and they still keep having terrible winrates. Sunflora(47%), Delibird(45.5%) and Luvdisc (42%) are just so much worse than other trash mons like Tatsugiri and Glaceon that they cannot scrape reasonable winrates even at 20ish level leads. When you roll that Luvdisc you die a little inside. As it has been made very clear by showdown staff that every fully evolved pkmn must be included, the only real solution is to drop the average level of an average pkmn even further. Even utter gutter trash like Luvdisc can pull a 49.1% winrate if it is lv100 fighting level 60 mons. Well it was council voted against because it would cause chaos for too long (like a whole 2-3 months) and issue was too minor (160000 instances of one of the 3 in a game and counting this month alone). Also there is a fear that the meta would get too bulky because of how level affects dmg formula. Azumaril might live a +3 befemoth bash from Zacian-C was brought up as an example that is somehow a bad thing. For the record the meta is fairly offensive as is. Basically every defensive mon lost half their toolbox. Really infuriating to roll one of the 3 again. Because it's apparently a lesser bad than maybe having to play a long game every once in a while...

[@rubeng9092]

In dpp lc some of the sample teams dont havr stealth rock tho

[@typhlosion7872]

The simplest way I can explain is it's one of the biggest limiting factors for offensive and defensive pokemon alike that would otherwise be overwhelming and punishes the best pption in any given turn

[@thereaIitsybitsyspider]

The world would be a better place if older tiers had the gen 3 OU treatment where players take balance seriously. If you banned rocks and mons that rocks keeps in check, Gen 4 OU would be as good as Gen 3 imo. Gen 5 needs Jesus.

[@whomgod420]

Stealth Rock is a lot like permanent sand in Gen 3-4. Both were mistakes

[@terrydavis146]

stealth rock should stack to 3 like spikes

[@jayplay8869]

Breaks let’s go with no defog or rapid spin.

[@z-leigh6554]

Stealth rock would be really good even without the type shenanigans. I'm not sure why it hasn't been banned in even a single generation, especially gen 4. I think a trial ladder would be perfectly appropriate. Alternatively, it could be treated like darkrai, and be started in the ban list and later introduced. Edit: So good as to be required on every team to be succesful Restrictive on teambuilding Etc.

[@1020percent]

It’s always the same answer. Finchinator!

[@votedthatoneguy]

Kev, howuch longer til the trailer :'c

[@ScatLuigi]

what if stealth rock were icicles?

[@tuberialolicon-tanuki6533]

Would a metagame without SR be better? That's kinda a metaphysical question, there is no ideal of the game beyond humanity to compare to, not even a perfect conception of competitiveness to pursue, the question is whether or not people like the way this element shapes the game and the skills it incentives and nurtures. (Old, casual pvp player take) IMO it depends on the generation, if I could I would ban rocks in tiers without reliable hazard removal, but if there are nice ways to remove or ignore them I think they add a nice layer in terms of both team building and player interaction

[@junkyardsoul3757]

Speaking of broken moves, I'm glad game freak gave scald the boot and I pray it stays gone.

[@obsesion]

Pokemon Prism ost

[@qwertyrhoads9295]

Come on down to LC, rocks are optional!

[@Sanninsuplex]

They added boots into the game and they limited the distribution of knockoff. It seems like we're in the best spot we're going to get while still having Rock

[@iryvi]

I remember blunder making q video about what if stealth rock was banned during gen 7. One of the things that were mentioned was how free of a click they are, not only due to the effect of the move itself, but also in the sense that the pokemon that use sr usually are so hard to ko. Pokemon like clef, lando, ttar, heatran, ferrothorn, even chansey/blissey or tusk now in gen 9. They are so solid due to their qualities thst even if you are running offensive spreads its still easy to switch them in to the field and get them up. Another point they made was that if rocks were to be banned lefties would have to go too, due to sr limiting the passive healing so much, which i also find interesting to think about. Also rebember them saying that pokemon like kyurem and volcarona would be super hard to deal with for obvius reasons. On a side note, i feel like boots could have been implemented in such a better way than what they are right now. Instead they could have made them so you take half the regular sr and spikes damage, and ignore the other entry hazards. I actually like being able to ignore stupid ass webs and toxic spikes, but keeping some of the damage would help with other problems like volc and static zapdos. Fantastic video as always.

[@eliliebelt3236]

Wait, im top 25 in lc right now and I dont run rocks am I broken or is lc???

[@midnightemerald]

lc generally doesn’t use rocks as much because the hp pools are far less bulky, the mons dont run hdb as much, etc etc. also lc rock setters just aren’t great

[@mayac69]

12% of 20 hp has less value than 12% of 200+ hp. It's not worth giving up a turn for it.

[@ErikaFurudo1986]

I might be stupid, but why does Tyranitar use Payback in that first replay? Isn't Crunch better?

[@N279]

As someone with almost no knowledge of the tier, I’ll guess that maybe it’s better against some fast leads

[@kingwailord4143]

Tyranitar is never outspeeding ANYTHING in ubers so its just more damage.

[@ewanphilip5604]

Payback in Gen 4 counts switching as "acting first" for doubling damage so when the opponent switches, it's a 100BP move. Considering how slow T-Tar is, there's really no way of stopping Payback from being 100BP

[@radishhat5736]

Payback doubles in power as long as you move second, so if you know that the opponent is faster then you, then payback will always do a ton of damage (100 power), unless they like... use a minus priority move like trick room or something. Even if they switch, that still counts as moving 2nd so payback would almost always be more power.

[@jerry3115]

Worth noting that payback doesn't get the power boost on switches anymore which is why you'll never see it again

[@dontaskmeaboutmyday4839]

Rocks in gen 4 is absolutely busted. Only viable spinner is starmie and it can easily be pursuited by ttar. I think it should be banned. People say, “without rocks, so and so would be op” Then just ban it lol. That one pokemon becoming op is not worth the hordes of pokemon that are unviable because of how absolutely crippling stealth rock is.

[@golderzoa]

Stealth rock is just better spikes plus it reduces 2 other layers of spikes you'd normally need it's only busted cause of how it's type based damage and it can get high damage outputs for no good reason plus it hits all targets where as spikes and toxic spikes apply only on the ground i do however think the effect should be nerfed

[@DemonDragon43]

SR is a lot more egregious in gens 4 and 5 than it is in gen 6 on imo thanks to the inclusion of defog and later boots. In general even if you look at gens 2 and 3 hazard removal is at its absolute weakest in gens 4 and 5 (gen 4 especially) with most spinners just being rather lackluster overall. In gen 4 most spinners also heavily struggle vs rotom-a, in gens 2 and 3 starmie can blow past gengar with psychic (and even then gengar can still spinblock starmie if it gets the play right) but its not so easy vs rotom

[@shaunduggan8605]

We have had 5 generations of rocks, I'm sure the next game can afford to not have it.

[@PokeBrodie]

what if recover and toxic crit

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

i think people forget that if we didn’t have some form of punishing switches, we could literally have infinite switch battles

[@flo4130]

Or you can use Spikes

[@metayoshi1712]

Seeing Mewtwo Self-Destruct vs having Flamethrower. Is this randoms?

[@SethRietdijk]

havnt watched but my 2 cents are: you need passive damage to handle defense, as gen 2 with even more insane defensive pokemon like pex or clodsire or tusk with even more active removal and natural cure status absorbing would make defense too powerful, and they just generally keep things in check

[@blue_elite964]

in gen 9, most teams run hazardless, or at least rockless and only run spikes.

[@bananaspice1967]

As a steel type enthusiast, I think you're simply overreacting the impact stealth rocks have

[@netweed09]

Yea, pick on Stealth Rock and not Life Orb that has banned countless Pokémon , lol.

[@islayprettylies9485]

Sneaky pebbles needs to stop randomly hosing rock-weak Pokemon. 12.5% or even 6.25% to everything.

[@genuineangusbeef8697]

I don't like the way rocks skew the type chart. In Gen 4 specifically I think the addition of Stealth Rock makes some sense. You had Spikes, a move which is omnipresent in modern ADV but which was also relatively understated when ADV was current Gen, especially for casual players. There was a also an inconsistency to using Spikes, as there were a lot of pokemon that were both extremely powerful and spikes immune. You've got the legendary birds, lati@s, and big dragons like Salamence, but there's also Ubers like Ho-oh, Lugia, Rayquaza, Shaymin-Sky, and Giratina-O. (and even beyond that, not too many Ubers at the time outright resisted Rock. It was just Dialga, Jirachi, and the odd OU Steel like Metagross, Bronzong, or Lucario.) In that way, Stealth Rock is anti-meta to what a lot of the best pokemon in the game were. They could be used as a technical tool to let a team of regular pokemon beat a team of hard hitting legendaries. I think they were leaning into this with the introduction of Gen 5 threats; I sincerely think Volcarona was tuned to be so strong with the knowledge that it would be so weak to Stealth Rock, especially for Battle Spot. (Bring 6 Pick 3 Singles) This might even apply to the Genies and Kyurem. (and maybe inversely with the 4 Swords but that is a much bigger stretch) But while this anti-meta effect worked fine in Battle Spot, it proceeded to age like milk in Smogon Singles because it pushes Steel into being the single most important type in the game. The type chart in competitive revolves around Steel, even to this day. Types are defined offensively by their ability to hit Steel and common Steel dual types or pair well with another type that does, while defensively types are pushed to synergize with Steel or face becoming a liability. While Fire has an interesting mix of advantage and disadvantage here, Bug, Ice, and Rock are already mediocre on paper and without exceptional stats and qualities are just ruined by the double whammy. (Rock because strong Rock type offense, the main selling point of the Rock type, is often redundant when Rock weak pokemon are already hit by Stealth Rock).

[@chilln0648]

When talking about Stealth Rock being broken in singles I also like to mention Protect in VGC because I think they both do something very similar for their respective metagames. If you ask any VGC player what the best move in the game is, all of them will tell you Protect and it isn’t even close. At the same time, almost none of them would want Protect to be removed from the game. I mean look at Urshifu in VGC right now, the thing is absolutely BUSTED almost entirely due to it ignoring protect. So much of the skill that VGC demands is about using Protect correctly, and the format would be much worse without it. I bring up Protect in VGC because like it, Stealth Rock is required for every team to use and the game is better for it. Just look at the pokemon that were pushed over the edge in Gen 8 because of HDB, like Cinderace and Weavile. If you ban Stealth Rock, way more pokemon will become broken like that.

[@jacksonsmith2955]

cinderace and weavile would be broken without stealth rock? okay, ban them. if magearna was stealth rock weak it too would be used as an argument for keeping SR, but it isn't, is it? being stealth rock weak is an almost arbitrary quality for a pokemon to have, by its very nature it will hurt the viability of a random assortment of pokemon, some of which will be otherwise very good. I don't understand why this is an interesting facet of the mechanic to you. TL;DR we already ban pokemon that aren't checked by SR, who cares that it happens to check a few mons

[@palyername]

I'd argue the main reason the moves are "good" are fundamentally different between VGC and singles. Protect in VGC introduces player dynamics like scouting and baiting, and affects most Pokemon equally. Rocks demand a dedicated role for removing them and make entire types of Pokemon more difficult to use regardless of their other attributes, limiting the available viable options. Sure, it's passive damage that can help wear down things that would otherwise be difficult to handle, but there are other sources of passive damage, and if taking a huge chunk out of a Pokemon's health for existing is what's needed to keep it in check maybe it's just broken - or maybe having more Pokemon in the pool of viable OU candidates would introduce a legitimate check, or even counter. I don't think saying "both moves popular" is a sound or logical argument, especially when support for Stealth Rock is demonstrably not universal. Seems like comparing apples and oranges to me.

[@kayramah2531]

It's pretty funny that your only point about why stealth rock shouldn't be banned is already discussed in the video, did you even watch it?

[@xy394]

Stealth Rock didn't stop Volc from getting banned in Gen 9. Reverse Power Creep

[@votreadelphe6008]

Why did GF feel the need to nerf the fuck out of fire, bug, ice and flying types with passive damage? Charizard was never that good even with its gimmicky Gen 2 Bellydrum set and without mega evolutions it would have never left the bottom of PU for like, 4 years. This company doesn’t know and care about singles metagames despite focusing all their solo campaigns on single battles where hazards are non-existant (with poor AI from all NPCs). They create shit-tier pokemon, left older pokemon to rot while they crank up the power creep each generation. That’s unacceptable. Then again, they are only 138 employees with outdated technology and tight deadlines…

[@avibi]

Let us not be so reluctant to ban things and ban switching altogether once and for all.

[@marianosimoniglesias]

You can't ban stealth rock without ban u-turn and regenerator. And for that ... Why don't play gen 3? Is my ignorant opinion.

[@user-iz2ik3gh2n]

Now do hidden power using the same arguments.

[@Chokoboh]

Yeah stealth rock was a major mistake from Gamefreak. It's basically the embodiment of racism within the game. "Oh, you're black? Can't compete with that shlong, you gotta come in bedroom with half the length, always!" 🤦

[@1314Bn]

Stealth Rock should be banned in LGPE OU. I know no one cares about Let’s Go Pikachu & Eevee’s competitive metagame but to have Stealth Rock in the game and not have a way to get rid of it is absurd as heck.

[@jasonmoscynski8170]

I think the main reason why Stealth Rock hasn't been banned is because it is the only entry hazard in game that effects flying and levitating Pokemon.