Why Heavyweights Can Never Be Good | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[@VarsIII]

(PLEASE READ BEFORE WATCHING) Apologies for the volume jumpscare during the outro (starts at around 13:30). Won’t happen again. Please be wary headphone users.

[@Silver19897]

I did not read this before watching. RIP me, but thanks for the warning 😅

[@jeremybricker1215]

My ears are bleeding right now... You should have re-uploaded the video after adjusting the audio...

[@TheEmperorGulcasa]

I think the biggest thing holding heavies back is pretty ass recoveries. It means that despite their high durability on paper due to their weight, they don't actually always live that long.

[@captconrad6014]

agreed

[@cjaquino28]

That's my take, too. If the point is that they should live longer, give them a great recovery.

[@kunkudunk1133]

Yeah they either need some more mix ups or better distance otherwise the likes of pikachu and sheik will easily live longer

[@echospace7347]

That’s really only dk and bowser tho😂

[@Temax6]

​​​​@@echospace7347 incin and ganon have shit ones. also bowser's recovery is not that bad

[@bigt8033]

Something I'd like to mention is that although Heavies are designed to be tanky and live long, due to a typically poor disadvantage state and generally bad recoveries they have a tendency to die earlier than a lot of the rest of the cast simply for getting comboed or hit off stage once

[@Lardo137]

THIS. It's like Sakurai pretended combos don't exist, you can CLEARLY see examples throughout Smash's competitive history that non-heavyweights can rack up damage AND reliably kill better than heavyweights because their moves are more reliable to land. Hitting like a truck doesn't matter if you move at 15 mph while everyone else is going 30 mph.

[@juhadexcelsior]

EXACTLY. The extra weight, in practice, doesn't actually serve a beneficial purpose most of the time.

[@Rougealienpirate]

Other thing is that being lightweight is a negligible weakness if you can run around circles at your opponent as they either don't hit you or hit you with their fastest, but weakest attack. Sakurai assumes someone like fox or pikachu are just going to sit at a charged ganon fsmash and die at 40% when that doesn't happen. I think just buffing heavyweights wouldn't be enough, but to make actual speedy characters have weaknesses. Either give them worse recoveries to compensate for their speed, or attribute that increases the damage they take and any heavy knockback is amped up.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@juhadexcelsior Heavy weights are usually High risk high reward characters. The reward for punishing the opponent is greater, but because you're so slow you can't afford to make mistakes.

[@juhadexcelsior]

@@orangeslash1667 the opportunity to punish is also greatly decreased for heavies though. Inherently because the advantage of being lightweight heavily outranks the advantage of dealing 50% in a couple hits. Combine this with an above average player's skill and its a massive uphill battle for heavy players,

[@magicmanfk]

I'm surprised there wasn't more discussion about why Bowser tends to be placed higher relative to the other heavies, and what we can learn from that about how to buff heavies in a balanced way. Speed is brought up a lot - Bowser outranks about 3/4 of the cast on the ground and in the air. Having a frame 6 OOS option that puts opponents in disadvantage shifts how he can play the game as well - it's a perfectly viable strategy not to strike first but bait your opponent to strike first in a way slightly unsafe on your shield. His powerful 6 frame command grab should also make opponents uncomfortable shielding when Bowser is approaching from the air. I think this versatility in gameplan really helps him excel where other heavies do not. Of course as a heavy he still has to deal with heavy combos, giant hurtboxes, and punishable recoveries, although his up b does offer more mixup than many people expect.

[@sinchill5424]

This is some good insight. My only issue is, that we couldn’t follow this to a T on how to balance heavies. If we did, all heavies would play extremely similar to each other, and then people would be complaining about how the characters are just clones and not true to their origins. I think small tweaks for each heavy would be good. For instance, I think the only buff Ganon would need would be to change how his wizards foot works in mid-air. Instead of diagonal downwards, make it work similar to Bayo’s (except he could only use it once) . Change nothing else, but it would give him better recovery options. DK I really think only needs is a better OOS option. Like less start-up or more armor on his grounded up-b. K-rool I actually think is fine. Good tools, good options, armor, reflector, good recovery. DDD, my biggest issue with DDD is the amount of end-lag on his gordo. This makes it challenging to play during some matches as they send it back to you before you can actually react due to end-lag. Shorten the end-lag on his gordo toss and DDD is in a better situation.

[@dahomie253]

@@sinchill5424 oh god please not that last one PLEASE

[@YOSSARIAN313]

​@@sinchill5424 id also alter ganon so his choke move wouldnt send him into free fall to give him mixups. Ganon would be a lot more threatening with decent recover. Hed probably at least lower mid tier with just those buffs

[@CoinBox170]

@@sinchill5424 Disagree with K. Rool. His recovery has good vertical distance but is super exploitable. I actually think it should be easier to change direction while recovering with him.

[@lasercraft32]

@@sinchill5424 I personally think Dedede should be LESS of a heavyweight... the guy can literally fly by inflating himself like a balloon, WHY does he feel like a rock? He's one of the heaviest heavyweights even though it makes no sense. In the _modern_ Kirby games he's just as mobile and nimble as Kirby and Metaknight, and he's not slow by any means. DK does a better job at feeling like that than Dedede himself.

[@matteoschiro7710]

I’ve always wondered why the devs insist on giving heavies bad recoveries. What’s the point of being heavy if you just get gimped at 30 like DK and Ganon do? The only heavies that don’t get regularly edgeguarded are Ridley and Bowser to a lesser extent.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

They cant even land onstage. Meanwhile, pikachu and palu have like 6 frames of landing lag

[@juhadexcelsior]

Ridley isn't a heavy iirc

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

King Dedede is like the only superheavy with good recovery, and he shows just how solid that combination is. Shame the rest of him is so... eh

[@zegreatpumpkinani9161]

I wish for a future where Ganon has float

[@lennydickson8845]

So nobody is mentioning the verticality K Rool can cover? I know it’s very exploitable but the fact a heavy can recover from the near abyss is impressive.

[@spinybro1014]

Problem is Sakurai likes to arbitrarily give them weaknesses, as well as adding character and whatnot that really renders the heavy’s weight useless, like Kazuya’s whole TOD being way easier on Heavies and making their one big strength not as useful while also making their weaknesses bigger.

[@Mayadel100]

whats the point of being heavy if your airdodge is too slow to avoid anything? has always been my issue

[@spinybro1014]

@@Mayadel100 exactly, frame 4 airdodge on characters with already monumentally bad disadvantage is bs when characters with really forgiving ones like Pika get better airdodges while also doing absurd combos Like, making a good Heavyweight is essentially just what the dev team did on Kazuya (intangible limbs on all attacks, absurd damage output but still have a mediocre disadvantage) but Kazuya is dlc u pay for the privilege lol.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

​​@@Mayadel100 if i could change one thing for balance, it would have been to swap all the frame 2 air dodge characters with the frame 4s

[@meee_5155]

Problem is heavyweights are amazing in casual play and ppl such as vars don’t take it into consideration that they just aren’t built for competitive play

[@freddiesimmons1394]

@@meee_5155 but there are features you can give them that translate poorly into the casual range, like OoS options and even jabs (which are underused by noobies)

[@wailmoregd140]

If we look at Bowser and Incineroar, Bowser is good because he lacks some weaknesses that a lot of other superheavies have, and Incineroar is good because while he does have the traditional weaknesses of a superheavy, he has an amazing moveset and is rewarded for overcoming those weaknesses. Both of these characters set great building blocks for what a viable heavyweight should have, and if there is to be a high-tier or top-tier superheavy at some point in the lifespan of Smash as a series, it’s more than likely it would require both of these bases to be applied, unless you’re Brawl Dedede of course

[@demolitiongod64]

Or brawl snake

[@hatsuneblacktrousers]

brawl dedede was either high-mid or high tier but not top tier, more-or-less that game's equivalent to smash 4 dk/bowser, good against some individual top tiers but bad against a lot of the others. also yeah the smash 4 tier list considers c tier to be "high tier", i guess because those characters can get good results and beat top tiers

[@thebeheaded4582]

Htwo made a video about this topic 4 years ago, where he analyzed 2 heavies from Rivals of Aether, which has heavies that are actually viable, but not overpowered. In short, they have ways to overcome their weaknesses, but not remove them.

[@jjtjp2469]

Basically, this. I believe the answer lies with buffing characters in ways to where their weaknesses are tone down to some degree, but they're still weaknesses the characters have that reels them in. I think a good example is Bowser in Ultimate. This is easily the most viable Bowser has been in the franchise's history, and I think it boils down to: - Tough Guy which makes it so that you can't just hit him with anything and put him in a vortex - His Up-B giving him an option against shield pressure - Mobility: Bowser is decently mobile in Ultimate. He's no Cap.Falcon or anything, but fast enough to where he doesn't really struggle to get around He's still combo food, but has options on defense. He's still not fast enough to overcome the speed weakness but has enough mobility to chase you down to some degree.

[@rmdashrfv]

can you link that video?

[@Lardo137]

It's a bit sad that a four year old video does a better job of analyzing heavies and their balance dynamics than this one.

[@waffleman8053]

And Etalus is still one of the worst characters in the game.

[@maxmucci3170]

It's also the only true heavy in the game. Kragg is more of a zoner

[@ridori7376]

Ridley could deadass be a very solid heavyweight if they MADE HIM AN ACTUAL HEAVYWEIGHT. Ridley has pretty decent mobility, good normals and unlike the other heavies his damage isn't THAT insane, instead relying more on combos/pressure. He doesn't have quite the same "make 1 mistake and you're dead" style, he's more healthy in that way. But for some bizarre reason they decided to make him lighter than Samus despite having the biggest hitbox in the game, which means he gets all of the disadvantages of being a heavyweight with none of the upsides. It's so sad.

[@judithforever9494]

As a ridley main I wholeheartedly agree, but we don’t play Ridley for an extremely op character lol

[@troykv96]

Maybe that is precisely the reason why he isn't a heavy weight, he has weird design philosophy that cross elements of being a heavy weight and a regular fighter, the fact that he doesn't have the super punishable normals is probably why they didn't want to make him a heavy weight despite being so large.

[@matteoschiro7710]

I don’t mind that he’s not a super heavy, he’s honestly one of the better big bodies. I would prefer buffing his initial dash and letting him angle his up b diagonally, and maybe add another jump.

[@Zenitsu-zq4pj]

@@matteoschiro7710 I agree with letting him angle his Up B diagonally, but giving Riddley another jump would make him extremely broken.

[@MerryBlind]

While I agree he should be heavier, something I don’t see ever mentioned is how his hurtbox shifts a lot during a lot of his animations, making him sometimes not as easy to hit as he may seem given his overall size.

[@SMOG8]

Most heavyweights should have good recoveries because what's the point of being heavier to live longer if you can get cheesed offstage at 20%. And I mean good as in distance, so still exploitable like Dedede's or K Rool's. The heavies in Rivals of Aether are well designed and proof that heavies can be good in platform fighters. They just need to be less extreme in high strength and low speed.

[@martinwilches6583]

Not only that, but give them more options to recover and good mix up. Look at Bowser, his recovery isn't bad but to recover is extremely predictable

[@orangeslash1667]

@@martinwilches6583 With the exception of Ike and Banjo. The heavy Weights that people have a problem with are villains/bosses. The fact that punishing is the ONLY thing they can do, is very fitting🤔 to what they are. They feel less like fighters and more like playable boss fights. Where their attacks are very powerful, but also very committal. When their attacks miss, they leave themselves wide open to attack. Even Dk counts as a boss fight thanks to DK 94 on the gameboy. Kazuya is the one exception to the rule, cause while he is a villain he wasn't a boss fight till Tekken 7.

[@King_of_the_Shrooms]

The issue is that Plattform-Fighters are just bound to be more Movement-Centered, most heavies don”t have that movement. Make them quicker or give them interesting features that cover the lack of movement, like Rivals of Äther did. Etalus comes to mind first, she can freeze the ground and abuse the ice on the stage for her own good, get a armor out of the ice and has a REALLY good recovery

[@ThatOneWeirdFlex]

One problem i have is how awful most heavy recoveries are. Why design them to live to higher percents if they die after they get blown downward by a beeeze more than once?

[@thebandit6886]

King K. Rool says hello

[@Hugo-yz1vb]

​@@thebandit6886 Not Mr. My recovery is so pretdictable is useless speaking about recoveries

[@captainmega6310]

​@@thebandit6886the recovery is so exploitable is hilarious

[@thebandit6886]

@@Hugo-yz1vb fair but he can still recover better than all of the other heavies

[@Hugo-yz1vb]

@@thebandit6886 Pretty much, but I still prefer King Dedede.

[@WindexDrinker-j6v]

I personally think it would be a fun idea to give heavy weights tons more shield damage. Like for example, even a slightly charged boswer/ganon fsmash could break a full shield. It gives them an interesting niche by wanting to actually attack shields, and makes landing their big goofy moves (like warlock punch) after they break shields a realistic win condition. Would it be OP? probably, especially in casual. Would it be fun to watch and play competitively? I would think so

[@patrickburton1401]

Bowser has plenty of moves that have insane shield damage, and are more viable moves than a forward smash. Fire breathe/down B. Down tilt/up smash. I get shield-breaks often. I can’t speak for other heavies tho.

[@neworldfool9625]

DK’s forward B can punish someone blocking too much. It felt like 80-90% of shield’s HP so one tap and a F+B or just F+B if they’ve drained enough and basically secure a kill. Just y’know, watch for a certain series of down+b’s to counter you after the first one lol

[@darquezze306]

13:23 No idea if you ever plan to cover Rivals of Aether or even Project M/P+ but I think both games show how heavy weights are done right. They need tools that help with getting zoned and have good movement options. Outside of universal movement options like wave dashes, Bowser has a fireball projectile over flame breath that's charged over time, not instant. Ganondorf has both Float as a neutral B and down b that refreshes 1 jump when used (like in Melee) Ike has quick draw which stops all momentum when you press B again for the actual attack, otherwise not activating the quick draw attack will just give you a good boost of speed. Dedede has side B for projectiles and Down B gives Dedede burst of momentum. And DK is just nuts lol. Etalus from Rivals has his ice breath that id applied to the stage to help with his poor speed. They all still have the fundamental issues of heavy weights but are given the proper tools to compete.

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

You forgot to mention that Ike's side b could be jump-cancelled, so you could do grabs, up-smashes, counters or aerials out of the dash.

[@darquezze306]

@@LloydTheZephyrian thanks for mentioning it!

[@Saskaruto16]

Both of those games do heavies properly. I absolutely love PM Ike, PM has my favorite version of Bowser in any smash game, Ganon feels a lot better so he's actually useable, and Kragg is my favorite character in Rivals. I do think they went a bit too far with DK though in PM. His disjoints and grab game make him like a better Marth in most matchups which is a bit absurd lol. But even that helps show the lines of what breaks them and what doesn't.

[@captainmega6310]

Well, now you get into the problem of them being even more annoying to fight for lower skill players, especially Donkey Kong. ESPECIALLY Donkey Kong

[@darquezze306]

@@captainmega6310 I don't really think that's too much of an issue. DK is a problem because he's just really overturned. Heavies are supposed to be tough and heavies are always an issue for lower skilled players in any fighting game. Unless they're genuinely bad characters ofc

[@Dionaea_floridensis]

What's unfortunate is the fact that the Big Heavies usually CRUSH new players, casual players, and even mid-level players in a poor online environment. This leads to a comparatively large swath of the community loudly complaining to nerf them, and/or a hesitancy for the devs to make them as good as any other fighter since they'd be potentially alienating the largest part of their active player base

[@Icemario87]

allowing heavies to break shield easier would bypass this problem because casuals rarely shield.

[@ayar2]

@@Icemario87playing casually doesnt necessarily means playing mindlessly, it means playing to have fun, whether win or lose. Playing competitively is playing to win, regardless of skill level.

[@Icemario87]

@@ayar2 And you think that definition yields: that people "playing to win" *shield an equal amount as* people "playing to have fun, win or lose"?

[@BlazeDragothan]

Bowser is on the cusp of being good, quite fast speed despite their weight and with tough guy, he's almost there.

[@wanderlustwarrior]

I had to pause at around the 5:00 mark. Speed actually *is* possibly the most important stat in Pokemon, as it decides the order of who moves on each turn. If you have a higher speed and can take out the opposition or cause them to lose a turn, they never get it back, and you do get the turn advantage. False Swipe Gaming literally put out a video last week called "Why Speed... Might be Everything", continuing their series on stats, where the previous entries were on why having high stats elsewhere is not necessarily an important thing.

[@wanderlustwarrior]

Even in the example given, according to a damage calculator, an offensive Pheromosa has a 62.5% chance to one hit kill certain defensive Steelix variants before they even move. (Assuming they both start the battle. The Pheromosa probably wouldn't be in for a matchup against a Steelix anyway.)

[@grimsdol4665]

The solution to the Heavyweight problem is by giving them moves that they can use in multiple situations, so that way they have the threat of coverage which each attack, a good example or this is Sephiroth up smash which has multiple uses

[@nothuman938]

As MockRock said in his video, instead of giving heavyweights more power they could also be given much more range on their attacks to compensate for their poor mobility

[@liamfrench3090]

Yeah, DK was actually kind of a decent pick in melee against a lot of characters, and a lot of that is because he was the only other character in the game that could zone like marth and puff, in a game where most characters have quick/stubby attacks. If they gave a heavyweight in ultimate range like Sephiroth, they’d probably be a high tier

[@Rougealienpirate]

I think the other problem is how lightweight/speedy characters weakness is very non existent. Like yeah they can die super early, but between them having either good recoveries, frame data, range, etc. it makes it hard to exploit it. It's why pikachu and fox are always top tier and high tier at worst. Their frame data is great, their recoveries kept getting improved, and their range doesn't matter if they can get in through sheer speed alone. Compared to other fighting games where a speedy character low health makes every hit/combo easy to die from, so long as you have the speed, you can recover and survive anything, especially if the opponent fast moves are their weakest. I think instead of just high tuning heavies, lightweights speed characters need better counterbalance than just maybe dying early.

[@freddiesimmons1394]

Or like literally anything.

[@Nefaliss]

@@Lionel-zd8rb Byleth would only be a little better with more weight; as making Byleth heavier doesn't make up for their poor speed and air mobility plus Byleth has to somewhat rely on reads to take early Stocks.

[@dave9515]

@@Rougealienpirate Issue is even lightweight/speedy characters have an imbalance between each other too. Compare joker to shiek. Compare sonic to pikachu. Compare pichu to young link. Fox is combos hard without getting comboed much himself. There is so much inbalance between characters and even archetypes. Smash is such a horribly balanced series and Ultimate is no exception and also very horribly balanced still.

[@ZiggyZ3]

One idea that comes to mind to make heavies stronger, but more balanced would be to give them states where they are more agile, but more vulnerable. Think of it as an inverse to super armor. Say a fighter throws out a strong and fast move but gets subject to more knock-back because of it. It’s short of like how heavier people in real life need more energy and concentration to pull off acrobatic moves. Gymnastics is easier when you’re shorter and lighter because you have less weight to manage and thus a lower risk of injury.

[@chebas_]

id be interested if you talk about ways that heavyweights can be implemented well in smash and to work as well as other fighters without being overtuned

[@SNoodleJuJu]

Bowser is ALMOST the perfect heavyweight. He does hard damage, has big attacks, is fast, has minor armor on absolutely everything alongside invincibility on certain body parts during certain attacks. He just needs a better recovery imo. The thing that balances it is he has no real combo game. He’s a rushdown fighter who lands stray hits whenever he finds an opening, but those hits are so strong that the opponent is bound to grant said opening at any time. And, while he is combo food, he shuts down certain combos purely through his tough guy armor, due to certain combo tools being WAY too weak to interrupt him. Just let his Up-B go higher and I think we have the first TRULY viable heavyweight in Smash.

[@jameswolf4894]

His hurtbox is what holds him back. Getting Bowser through projectile heavy charcters like Snake, Samus or the Belmonts is a fucking chore. What Bowser really needs is a good projectile that can counter and cover his huge hurt box at times. They have done this with him in Project M Plus. They basically replaced his flame breath with a huge fireball that has to be recharged every 10 seconds. This made him viable enough to win a tourmenant.

[@oskarhenriksson7054]

The biggest reason is because heavies would dominate casual play if they were any better. The game is balanced for beginners that don’t play optimally. However, as players make less and less mistakes speed and frame data gets more and more influential on the game because you get more opportunities to initiate advantage and evade disadvantage

[@Icemario87]

not if they increase the damage done to shields. casuals never shield.

[@oskarhenriksson7054]

@@Icemario87 I believe casuals actually over-rely on shield and spotdodge, not using movement to their advantage

[@Icemario87]

@@oskarhenriksson7054 might be a symptom of online

[@5p8nkm3]

As a casual I can confidently tell you that for us every heavy is BROKEN.

[@matheusnunes1294]

imo i think heavys should have more armored moves, like dk and ganon punch, also they could have a shield that last longer and do more damage to enemy shields, but as you said, it's hard to balance them in a plataform figther like smash, otherwise we'd have more kazuia 2.0

[@robertoalexandermendezmore408]

The world would be better place if all heavys have someting like king K, down smash

[@orangeslash1667]

@@robertoalexandermendezmore408 With the exception of Ike and Banjo. The heavy Weights that people have a problem with are villains/bosses. The fact that punishing is the ONLY thing they can do, is very fitting🤔 to what they are. They feel less like fighters and more like playable boss fights. Where their attacks are very powerful, but also very committal. When their attacks miss, they leave themselves wide open to attack. Even Dk counts as a boss fight thanks to DK 94 on the gameboy. Kazuya is the one exception to the rule, cause while he is a villain he wasn't a boss fight till Tekken 7.

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

Pokémon’s speed stats DO affect how many actions they can take. If you’re KO’d, you cannot act. That’s why so much of VGC ended up being about speed control and why faster Pokémon are generally a LOT better than slow Pokémon. This isn’t just the case for offensive Pokémon: GSC Raikou is an effective tank in part because of its incredible speed.

[@oceanman6973]

Incorrect. It’s not because they can take more actions, it’s because in a turn based game, going first can and will always be the deciding factor between winning and losing

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

@@oceanman6973 I mean it's not just that, threatening out slower Pokemon is a way you effectively get free turns. Being able to fast Spore/Dark Void gets you free turns. Getting a ko can mean your opponent doens't get to take an action and while they can play around that, I think the consequences of the fact you pointed out are far reaching and that's why I argued that it made sense to consider fast pokemon as taking more moves. If two pokemon double attack your slot and your mon gets KO'd, it can't attack. But if you don't like my phrasing, you can at least say that fast mons get more flexibility in how they use their moves.

[@johnhall9038]

I feel like it would actually be very easy to make heavyweights viable and fair at top level. It just wouldn't be fun for casuals.

[@Lexicon865]

"Why Heavyweights can never be good" Kazuya: i pretend i do not see

[@epicthelegend9001]

Safety is the key to balancing most heavyweights. They tend to suffer in neutral, pressure, and disadvantage, but fixing their pressure game would be the best way to keep their identity without over-tuning them. Make 1 aerial and 1 or 2 tilts/jab completely safe on block, but they don't kill outright, limited combos, and no strong kill confirms. That way they can safely pressure opponents, but if they want to kill they need to use the higher risk/higher reward options they're known for.

[@epicthelegend9001]

This would stop them from needing to take big risks at every stage of the game to which is another big problem with nearly ever bad character in smash but also all heavyweights.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@epicthelegend9001 Heavy weights are usually High risk high reward characters. The reward for punishing the opponent is greater, but because you're so slow you can't afford to make mistakes.

[@epicthelegend9001]

@@orangeslash1667 yeah but in their current state, that's the ONLY thing they can do, meaning they can't play safe or patience if they wanted to. Having 1-2 low risk/low-reward options that don't provide kills, kill confirms or too much damage would mean that they still need to use high risk/high reward options to win. It's kinda like Little Mac, putting too many eggs in the already full "big damaging attacks basket" leaving them without the tools to actually form a strong gameplan instead of just swinging all over the place.

[@junkyyard2273]

​​@@orangeslash1667 High risk high reward characters ok but you're constantly in risk when you play a heavy weight with a big ass fucking hitbox and a god awful recovery. The chances of getting a reward? Not very favorable especially when others can outspeed you and put you in a disadvantage state

[@Icemario87]

@@orangeslash1667 It's balanced by having only 1 ground move and 1 air move that qualifies. So they become predictable if they use the 1 fast move.

[@3of6mylove]

I feel like the term "heavy" should be a bit more specific. Most people use it to mean specifically superheavyweights. But there's plenty of other characters classified as heavy, like snake, Rob, and samus.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

Its more appropriate to use the term "Grappler" in this sense of what people mean by "heavy". Grapplers specifically are slow and big and have trouble getting in but are massively rewarded for doing so.

[@trevorparker6400]

I think a funny character would be someone with Falcon's speed and Bowswr's tankiness, but with Shielk's attack power

[@aslaksockcraft]

Kazuya is massively held back by the fact that whilst his moves have a lot of invinciblility, they're all extremely comittall.

[@InciniumVGC]

You got one thing wrong. In Pokemon the speed stat is also very important and slower Pokemon don't necessarily get the same number of attacks for the reason that if you are KOd first you don't get an attack.

[@CodeNameMoniker]

Good points, here's my perspective. I've watched a lot of superheavyweight matches at all different skill levels, and here's the thing - they need a little more juice. A few extra percent damage and knockback to make up for the difficulty in actually hitting a savvy opponent. A little more weight to live long enough to enjoy the benefits of near/full rage. A very small increase to frame data depending on the move. Each heavyweight needs something different, but these small tweaks can really give them the push they need to be competitive but not brain-dead easy. As it stands you lose the ability to generate an advantage state in neutral just to die in a blender ~25% later and kill ~20% sooner IF you can land your finisher. Way too skewed in the lightweights favor, and while you're right about risks in making heavies good, they're so bad right now that a gentle push would almost definitely be good for the game. Plus, heavies are just plain hype to watch imo 😂

[@jayden9766]

That song you picked in the beginning is one of my favorite PMD tracks ever. I still have it in my phone to this day

[@俺は誰でもない]

What if rage multipliers were determined by weight instead a flat value among all fighters?

[@engliships2126]

That dont really solve the problem. Ganons already strong as shit, but if he cant get in that doesnt matter. Making heavyweights stronger will just make the opponant camp harder

[@dave9515]

@@engliships2126 Also characters like kazuya will get even more cheesy and overpowered. There are some great heavy fighters. I wouldn't mind this dude's suggestion though cause cloud and byleth get better and cloud killing at decent percents would be wonderful.

[@engliships2126]

@@dave9515 they dont need it tho. It will be even more cheap on them swordies cause theyll kill you early off disjoints which is horrifying

[@dave9515]

@@engliships2126 They do need it tho. If you can't kill then all the threatening disjoints are pointless. Smash needs major overhauls on its gameplay choices in general and they need to bring back ledgehogging and stop making so many characters with magnet hands and great recoveries. Balloon knockback is also a horrible mechanic. HDR fixes a lot of ultimates flaws and Rivals and Fraymakers show how to make excellent platform fighters imo.

[@俺は誰でもない]

@@engliships2126 they won’t just get stronger but lighter weights will get weaker too

[@ramblincapuchin9075]

I would argue that above mobility, offensive presence is one of the most critical components of *any* real time fighting meta No one plays incineroar, but he has been stepping through the ranks lately because players are beginning to wake up to his tools, something that couldn't be said about little Mac When your opponent has to look out for what kind of offense you bring, they are forced to put respect on your game on account of instinct The less you get to play your game, the more opportunities they have to play theirs. So in a sense it's not a measure of how you well move, but whether you have the upper hand This can be illustrated really well by Yujiro Hanma's matchup with Kaku Kiaoh. The infamous old man punch. This is a man that would take on any animal, but wouldn't come near that punch I'm trying to point out the core design that has held smash back in terms of roster viability. The meta in smash has always rewarded a certain style of play, despite boasting so many characters. And thus tiers are born You see, any game that was concerned about it's programming efficacy has always included characters variable play styles. This is because they want to expose the player to levels and skill. Sure, rote memorization plays a factor, but somewhere in the mind, the designers hoped that people would achieve that level of play Sakurai described this notion as "to burn". And if a game wants to be successful, it's got to include characters that are compelling. Street Fighter's Hakan was one of those characters. He was a big body, but they had given him oil so it became tricky to face off against his grappling style. And the reward for playing him was that you got to see the whole roster get trick shot by his oily finisher Smash doesn't seem to know how to make big characters the exception to the rule. If speed is the name of the game, then they ought to have mechanical ways to counter speed. Much in the way that high defense is the compliment to strong offense It's the Sun Tzu philosophy of "if my opponent is as the mountains, then I shall be like the sea" If there is a hit and run Sonic type, you don't fight him by matching his tempo. You punish with bait and traps. Don't be Bowser, be Steve. It's just unfortunate that Bowser ISNT designed to be more obstructive and they kept making him agile He could have been smashes Z-Broly if implemented well. But again, smash tries to make things cookie cutter across the iterations

[@armorbearer9702]

What about buffing heavyweights shield? Perhaps shield durability can correlate to weight.

[@XxEnderxX-lh5hf]

A lot of things should be related to weight, while others no, and there are other things that should be universal. Jump squat is an example weight dependent, where light fighters get 3, mediums get 4, and heavy get 5. Dodges are an example of thing that should be universal, little macs rolls are dog shit for no reason, this also applies to techs, bowser's are dog shit for no reason. Ultimate has a lot of shitty design in it for no reason, while other thing are designed nicely.

[@Saben.C-Spoon]

That would destroy light characters who are already weak to shield pressure like sephiroth, doesn't sound like a great idea to apply it to weight but maybe on a case by case basis

[@captainmega6310]

​@@XxEnderxX-lh5hfI wouldn't say should but it's an interesting thought experiment

[@orangeslash1667]

@@XxEnderxX-lh5hf Mac can't afford to make mistakes, it's only when you suffer too much damage that you get knocked off stage, so don't get hit too much. It's like Punch Out, when fighting the harder bosses a couple mistakes is enough to lose. In return Mac has super armor in some of his attacks, his tilts are pretty strong, his counter has pretty good range, a KO punch, and finally his speed allows him to both run away and rush down opponents. Mac can punish super hard but he can also be punished super hard. A true example of an extremely high risk high reward character. So how do you not make mistakes, be patient. Some characters are not meant to play like everyone else.

[@TengoSuenho]

A small nitpick: In turn based RPG Speed is also vital. In the example you give, Pokemon, Speed is probably the most important stat of all, precisely because moving before the opponent means moving twice as much as them a lot of the time

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

I believe in Gen 6, you'd actually want Aegislash to go second, because if you go first, you'll get thrashed by being in Blade Forme, but going second allows you to take way less damage before attacking. You could then just use King's Shield to go back to Shield Forme if you feel like you have to.

[@TengoSuenho]

@@LloydTheZephyrian Yes, there are some specific situations where being slow is actually benefitial (another example are Weather Wars). However, 90% of the time being faster is just better, both in offense and defense

[@LloydTheZephyrian]

@@TengoSuenho I'm not saying you're wrong about speed being key, but I did want to bring up a case where it isn't important. I have no idea how good Aegislash is in Gens 8 and 9, but I do recall it was a monster in Gen 6.

[@N12015]

@@TengoSuenho And it becomes more prevalent the more we move in generations. When it became almost everything? I would say in generation 4 due to the augment of base power of moves so it became easy to 1HKO or 2HKO, alongside gen 3 reducing universal bulk which hurt bulky attackers the most.

[@TengoSuenho]

@@N12015 I would say they were even more important in Gen 1, tho thats due to how that Gen use Speed for Crit Chances. The channel False Swipe Gaming has a very good video in this topic that I highly recommend

[@mega17]

I hope they give heavies better recovery and maybe even more weight to just emphasis survivability even more. It should feel like fighting a raid boss.

[@mega17]

The notion that it is not fair to lose to a single combo of a heavy is more parallel to being outspend and whittled down by a fast character than I think you care to admit. I think there is a happy middle ground where the heavies are stronger than they already are, not oppressively so, but enough that ***relatively*** match ups come down to popularity and player preference. I think the idea that it would become frustrating is just a reactive emotional dislike of a shift from the historic norm. Watching for an opening to make that KO combo takes skill too, it isn't just a gamble. It's skill and equally valid.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@mega17 With the exception of Ike and Banjo. The heavy Weights that people have a problem with are villains/bosses. The fact that punishing is the ONLY thing they can do, is very fitting🤔 to what they are. They feel less like fighters and more like playable boss fights. Where their attacks are very powerful, but also very committal. When their attacks miss, they leave themselves wide open to attack. Even Dk counts as a boss fight thanks to DK 94 on the gameboy. Kazuya is the one exception to the rule, cause while he is a villain he wasn't a boss fight till Tekken 7.

[@SoggyWafflesXp]

I love the Pokémon analogy here. Absolutely perfect!

[@PineapplePineapplePineapplePin]

Man, remember when people said K. Rool was busted? Good times...

[@matteoschiro7710]

Tbf heavies always get worse as the game gets more optimized.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@matteoschiro7710 With the exception of Ike and Banjo. The heavy Weights that people have a problem with are villains/bosses. The fact that punishing is the ONLY thing they can do, is very fitting🤔 to what they are. They feel less like fighters and more like playable boss fights. Where their attacks are very powerful, but also very committal. When their attacks miss, they leave themselves wide open to attack. Even Dk counts as a boss fight thanks to DK 94 on the gameboy. Kazuya is the one exception to the rule, cause while he is a villain he wasn't a boss fight till Tekken 7.

[@skyeblu3178]

What’s crazy is that even in Pokémon, a turn-based game, speed is still debatably the most important stat, far more so than the video makes it out to be. False Swipe Gaming has a video to that effect, literally stipulating that “speed…might just be everything” (Deoxys Theorem)

[@Fungo4]

As one of the few people who likes Stamina mode, it's unbelievable how EVEN MORE stacked against heavies the mode is.

[@ayar2]

You can compensate with handicap

[@E_Fig05]

I love this video. I'm fascinated by the inherent advantages and disadvantages of archetypes. I know this is a Smash Bros. channel, but Rivals of Aether has some great workarounds for heavyweights that make them just as good as the rest of the cast. Mock Rock even talks about them in his video on heavyweights.

[@inaviatable118]

You jumpscared me with barren valley. Very based mystery dungeon usage

[@TheZexal]

I have two propositions for universal changes to heavies that could potentially make them more viable. 1.) Any character above the sandbag weight class could have decreased hitstun. This could grow with their weight, but idk. Just a small difference could be all they need to break a combo. If they're larger and heavier, I think it makes sense they'd flinch less from attacks. 2.) You could increase their early % knockback growth, and keep their late % knockback growth the same. This makes faster characters need to be more on point to combo them and not just be free combo food, but still keeps their survivability. Not 100% sure on how applicable this could be, but it's the best I could come up with.

[@jameswolf4894]

I do agree with 1. I know smash isnt realistic but it bothers me to no end when I see Bowser getting juggled by a charcter that is the size of a rabbit. Its borderline dumb that being bigger means less ability to react and just act like a punching bag.

[@brandtmichael3868]

Speed is actually the most important stat in Pokemon too lol

[@gameboyn64]

In pokemon speed often does grant you a way to avoid attacks all together. The pokemon that goes first can ko, cause flinch, or status an opponent before they get to move. Speed is one of the most important stats in pokemon. That's why in sun and moon smogon, steelix is in NU tier and pheromosa is in Uber.

[@WhitePointerGaming]

Some heavyweights ARE good, though. Bowser's actually quite good in Ultimate, but outside of him, characters like Brawl Dedede, Snake (he's stupid heavy for some reason), Kazuya, Incineroar, Ultimate Samus and Wario are all very good characters.

[@garbless]

i like how speed actually is a factor that affects the amount of turns a pokemon has in legends arceus

[@RainbowAceOfSpades]

I think the way to go is either give more range or increase the chance of hitting a follow up hit (ie. longer hitstun, more frame traps, or lower knockback for certain moves to set up a follow up hit) to account for the lack of mobility.

[@ayar2]

Sentinel entered the chat.

[@Wario_B]

Never thought I’d hear the day someone calls KKR’s up air “fast” lol Good vid my guy 👍

[@biguzivertt]

the pokémon analogy doesn’t work too well since slow tanks can be killed in one hit aswell or can be flinched,paralyzed etc. aka speed is king unless you’re too tanky to be taken out instantly

[@mushroomdude123]

5:11 It’s funny that you mention that because that’s exactly how Speed worked in Legends Arceus. Fast Pokemon would very often attack 2-3 times in a row, which of course, made slower Pokemon harder to use.

[@blazichaos7181]

Whats funny about the comparison of speed to pokemon is that somewhat recently, a channel called "False Swipe Gaming" explained that even in pokemon, a turn based game. Speed can be absolutely crucial for some pokemon, and other Pokemon are screwed over by a LACK of speed.

[@torri776]

Greatly agree with Speed being the most important parameter in a real time setting. In turn based combat, Speed does decide who goes first, but the slower party does get a chance to strike back. My favorite example of Speed not feeling unfair thanks to Turn Based Mechanics would be the Myrmidon VS Knight in Fire Emblem. The former has fantastic speed and skill, the latter constituting critical strike chance, but generally low HP, damage, and especially durability. The Knight has comparatively higher health and base damage, solid accuracy for a slow class so they can hit even the fastest enemies reliably, and the main metric offsetting their horrendous speed is high Defense. In Fire Emblem, higher speed doesn't decide who goes first - it instead allows the faster unit to strike twice. Say if the Knight attacks first, they will only attack once, and they will tank two feeble blows (barring the Armorslayer weapon which counters armors).

[@SoggyWafflesXp]

Why wasn’t Ult Bowser brought as a good example of a viable heavy?

[@Icemario87]

Increasing a heavy weight's ability to break shields would balance them without having to make them faster. also. they could benefit from having 1 fast jab or tilt and 1 fast aerial.

[@danielferrieri7434]

The Bigger They Are, The Harder They Fall

[@theenderkirby]

No doubt

[@judithforever9494]

@@theenderkirby unless ur ridley

[@SkullTheLegless]

The difference between casual and competitive is that casual players don’t know enough to move out of the way

[@dend1]

Non heavies should all have their knock back further reduced against heavies. Increase the time required to ko a heavy and give more opportunity for human error. Otherwise light and fast will always be better

[@snolls105]

hold up, even in competitive pokemon speed is the most important stat. false swipe gaming made a really good video about it if you're interested.

[@MartianBlobfish]

I think it could be interesting if heavy weights had some sort of buffer to make it harder for them to be combo'd like maybe there was a 'poise' feature where you won't get knocked back until it's it's broken and it needs to recharge before coming back. It's broken once a certain amount of damage is done within a window of time and when you're being damaged the recharge timer resets. So it'd be harder to start a combo on a heavy character but when you do it's business as usual. Of course it wouldn't be allot of damage, just enough to where you'd need to get a good heavy attack or like 3ish lighter ones. I mean, this is kind of treading into the same category as super armor but honestly it makes sense that a large character would be more resistant towards being knocked back, and it gives them just that little bit of extra wiggle room.

[@mikelpelaez]

I honestly think that rivals of aether already solved the problems of heavyweights ,giving them more movement options, but more commital ones

[@Squidwolf]

Literally my 3 mains in the thumbnail

[@smittywerbenjagermanjensen7027]

Well, thanks for joining the group of people I'm working to disprove. There will always be a chosen few that dominate the higher tiers of play with "bad characters". Yes, worse than some on paper, in common practice, and in theory. However, there will always be a place in the meta for defying the meta itself.

[@Claudia-km9lo]

- man who has never never played rivals of aether

[@cooly1234]

funny rock and ice guys with level editor

[@cheezeebred]

Honestly I think giving all heavies a universal reduction in hit stun would do wonders. If disadvantage is where they fall apart the hardest, make it easier and (not impossible) for them to get out of it. It wouldn't make them over powered as fast characters can still reset their combo, but they will have the added strained of their big combo target having more movement options, while also risking a heavy counter attack. Physics-wise, having less hit stun just makes sense too. Big fatty K Rool shouldn't be as physically effected as a tiny Pichu.

[@kacheechang4667]

As much as I love heavyweights and playing them, I don't think they should EVER be the best characters in the game. It's like in league when juggernauts were first added in and destroyed the pro league. Just having something that both kills you in a couple of hits and survives forever can be incredibly toxic to a game. For smash, I honestly think the issue isn't range, armor, or really anything like that. Its their survivability being rather lackluster at times due to poor recovery. Its something I feel every heavyweight suffers from and we see it with skyjay, leoN, and hikaru often in sets they lose. They get edgeguarded at 30% and die. The fact that the one strength they have can easily be turned into a weakness is what allows them to have such overwhelming kill power. Sure, incineroar, bowser, and k rool, and dedede have some mixups but they can only do so much to switch it up and dk and ganon just don't have many mixups in general. Also an idea I've heard was to give heavies a stronger shield. It would give them much more ease on shield pressure and wouldn't have to worry about shield poke all the time. It's nothing crazy but it was an interesting idea so I thought I should include it in.

[@Super-qr7wm]

King dedede has a surprisingly good recovery that no one talks about if you dont get launched off the screen is doesnt matter where you are you can recover as long as you dont activate up b too early. Its only issue is that it can kill you cause of how big its end lag is.

[@UmbraStarWolf]

Nobody plays Wolf at top level anymore except of Jackal Charlie and Ouch Mid level maybe but not high or top level

[@KaiJieTeoh]

superheavies are literally the most fun character to play as.

[@RaffoPhantom]

And then there is Ridley who has all the drawbacks of heavies (big hurtbox, bad disadvantage) without the weight.

[@gunbuckybucketman4578]

My idea for super heavy is they can shield stunt their opponent, by attacking if it hit their shield then the opponent can't drop their shield for a short period of time so they can't evade or hit back as easy, depends on how strong the move is (Tilt ,Smash).

[@felonius_punk]

Im kind of new to smash again (havent really played since Melee) and im learning the meta soowly. But one thing i have to remark on is how INTELLIGENT the people in this comment section are! Wow. The amount of knowledge you guys have is impressive. I have a lot to (re)learn!

[@quantum6637]

On the weight vs size issue, being heavier is a buff as long as your size is proportional. Bowser gets combo’d more because he’s bigger, but his weight is so high he still lives much longer than Pikachu. Being bigger and heavier is a good thing for a character. Whenever you see top players talk about facing a heavy or you see commentators talk about heavy matches, they always exclaim how hard it is to kill them despite their hard they’re combo’d. As long as your not bigger than you are heavy (like Ridley for example) being a big boy is a buff. Being big is not what drags heavies down.

[@waffleman8053]

Finally, some respect on my boy Sandbag.

[@Leivve]

Giving them tools so they don't get thrown around for 2 minutes till their % is high enough to k.o. would probably go a long way. I can't imagine it's fun for a player to combo on sandbag for a minute, nor fun for the heavy weight to just get a drink while they wait for them to get damaged enough so they can actually fly far enough that they can stop getting juggled. having a tool to get back into neutral would greatly help their performance.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Spoilers for battle of bc: I'm back after poor Acola tried Donkey Kong in the grand finals. He got his occasional cheap kills vs Spargo, but Cloud's mobility just made that a bit of a hopeless attempt.

[@DrunkPanda239]

I’d actually love a heavy that has -Good mobility and frame data/combos -good recovery and anti zoning and walling(maybe a taunt mechanic) and maybe anti construct to counter Steve also. - Rewards successful defensive interactions (a meter that fills up when you successfully parry,dodge,shield a hit and by double tapping it deplets but your next move/special come out arsen-ish) His major flaw is he lacks “heavy” kill power and would have to as much work as a Mario Or Lucina or even squrtle without anything buffing him. He’d also wield a shield.

[@dragonic_puppy1700]

Im a king k-rool and king dedede main, both are good if you can land the right moves and make the right set ups, their recoverys are actually not bad, king dedede with his many jumps and good horizontal recovery (not adding in jumping moves his hurtbox back meaning you cant use jumps to slow your momentum when being launched to the side, and k-rool with his up air to help him get more vertical range so he can recover low, plus they both have really good comand grabs and projectiles (yes gordo is wack but when it works it works) plus king k-rools belly armor gives him that helping hand out of disadvantage, not only that but the power behind his devastating counter

[@Calypp0]

Bro you can't upload on all 3 channels at the same time. I have no idea where to start this is too much stress

[@DoMorrMusic]

Vars I, Vars II, Vars III

[@gameboyn64]

You know if you combine attributes from all the heavy weights you would have a top tier. Dk ground and air mobility, charizard jab, dk tilts, ganon dash attack, k rool down smash, ganon f smash, charizard up smash, incineroar down and side special, charizard up special, bowser neutral special, ganon up neutral and down air, dk back air, bowser foward air, incineroar grab, incineroar down and back throw, charizard up throw, and dk foward throw.

[@maxwelldimensio]

DK also has hikaru, a great Japanese player

[@ChaosSolak]

Fear is what heavyweights need. Ike was considered a heavyweight in Brawl. He didn't really have much in terms of combos (except the jab cancel ones) but each one of his hits had oomph to it and range. That to me is that they should be designed. Not like with Donkey Kong's B-air spam. Attacks with range and lag, either at the start or at the end. In short, good range options that force speedsters to enter a "danger zone" in order to apply their own pressure. That is what is done though, so what should be changed? Mobility options. Ike with Side B cancel gave him ways to quickly follow-up the opponent and add up the pressure, even if his speed is far from the best. That's what makes Bowser rank higher than most other heavyweights in Ultimate: his ground speed. By comparison, Ganondorf has down B which is extremely laggy and doesn't allow for follow-ups... except when that puts him off-stage, which is where you'll see it used. If Ganondorf had the ability to jump cancel out of his down B in neutral, he'd instantly become far more menacing as it would extend his "danger zone". As of right now, Ganondorf can be approached fairly safely and can be camped like crazy. And of course, not nerfing their recovery options would also be pretty great. Incineroar can act out of his side B, allowing him to vary his recovery and be more viable. So can Ridley in fact. Yet Ganondorf is sent into freefall... why? As we've found out, it's the variety of recovery options that actually makes a character good at recovering. Same with Donkey Kong. Some characters have projectiles instead of recovery options to secure a path. Lastly... not having 0-to-death combos in this game, or combos that become 50/50 on whether you die or not. Putting so much hitstun in this game was a mistake. Ultimate Salt is Real showcases just how dumb this can get. And when your heavyweight has to content with such combos... they stop being viable. A speedster will be able to secure a kill by winning ONE interaction, starting a combo at 30% while the heavyweight will have to win SEVERAL interactions to achieve the same result. That plays a big part in why they're not viable. I could go on. It's almost like you could make a video on that or something!

[@tyfi31]

As a Bowser main I’ve never been so offended by something I completely agree with

[@shnurgle1721]

I'd highly recommend rivals of aether, a platform fighter with genuinely viable and balanced heavies

[@luminach]

Heavyweights should have notably higher DI and SDI influence to compensate for how comboable they are. It would make sense since they have the body weight to "shrug" off impact more. It also adds a element of skill for both players. Attackers trying to combo would have to focus more on reading DI to continue their combo or advantage state, and super heavyweights would have a active role in compensating for their biggest weakness by mixing up their DI to escape combos. Since managing DI is a advanced concept it'll have less of an effect at the casual level, and only become more significant as players get more experienced.

[@Sapreme]

There's been heavyweights that have been top tier in other games, we can take a look at them to see why/how they're high tier. In traditional games, its due to their command grabs that deal 1 third of your health bar. Potemkin, Honda, Gief, etc are great examples of this. Interestingly enough, the only high-tier heavyweight I can think of in smash would be King Dedede in brawl, and he also had a chaingrab against most characters that would straight up be an infinite or deal massive damage + put you in a great advantaged state. Maybe a great way to make heavyweights good would be to give them grabs that could combo into their heavy hits with the correct read. Another top tier example, probably the all-time goat of heavyweights, is Sentinel. He's.... OP for a million of reasons, but one big things he has that pushes him over the top is fly/unfly cancels. Maybe a good way to make heavyweights good would be giving them certain conditions where they're able to cancel or mitigate some lag on some of their moves, something like L-cancels with a cooldown could work, or make them recover faster after hitting a shield. One other thing is that most good heavyweights have something that helps them mitigate their weakness, but doesn't solve all their problems so they can't rely on it. Zangief has green hand, and lariats to help deal with fireballs. Haggard has a lariat that is invincible, but it costs health to use. Even in smash, theres some great examples of this. In melee bowser has a great f-air, in brawl he has a great dtilt, and across all games he has an amazing up'b OoS.

[@Silver19897]

I think the way to fix it is to look at disadvantage instead of advantage. Something between DI, hitstun, and fall speed can probably be tweaked to allow heavies to be able to play the game after getting hit without inherently taking it over completely. Maybe let them have stronger DI after a hit so that they can escape combos just a tiny bit earlier? Obviously fine-tuning that difference would take time and effort, but it could keep things competitive. Maybe allow them to suffer less hitstun from some attacks, letting them take defensive action earlier than most characters, or letting them be affected less by the same moves. For example, having a higher threshold for being sent into tumble. Since it’s so difficult to improve their offense without overtuning them, maybe they should be better defensively.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Another thing that is often used to balance heavyweight is recovery. Ganon's recovery is awful, while Incinoroar and donkey have very subpar recoveries. King k rool's recovery is also very exploitable by some characters. Yet for some reason, Kazuya also has a very good recovery. His up-b has a great vertical range and is mostly invincible.

[@holondrix3949]

Tbf, Dedede does have a good recovery that's armoured along with his multiple jumps. Even then, he is still prone to being edgeguarded.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@holondrix3949 With the exception of Ike and Banjo. The heavy Weights that people have a problem with are villains/bosses. The fact that punishing is the ONLY thing they can do, is very fitting🤔 to what they are. They feel less like fighters and more like playable boss fights. Where their attacks are very powerful, but also very committal. When their attacks miss, they leave themselves wide open to attack. Even Dk counts as a boss fight thanks to DK 94 on the gameboy. Kazuya is the one exception to the rule, cause while he is a villain he wasn't a boss fight till Tekken 7.

[@Tolinar]

A volatile archetype doesn't require a gigantic advantage. It requires a player who understands that volatility and is willing to work with the controlled risk for the chance for a big payout, like we've recently seen with Incineroar. A similar form can be seen at less competitive play. Bowser, for example, has immense threat and priority with his attacks. While a pro gamer will never make the mistake of trying to drift into the long, sustained forward smash from Bowser, it happens at lower echelons. Heavyweights can also be about committing to smaller, less rewarding payouts, such as Bowser's flame breath. At high play, this move has little followup and resets the neutral, giving very little in exchange for the advantage. But it also has very little vulnerability and shuts down 90 percent of counter-approaches. At the right distance, from full charge, it's virtually guaranteed damage unless your opponent sees it coming. The reason this isn't popular at ultra high play is, you don't want to give your opponent another chance at the neutral for such a small damage payout, so it's reserved for situations when, after the fire breath, your opponent will be stuck in a disadvantage.

[@mistergidster259]

Can you make a video on the links? They are pretty interesting to me.

[@bl00df4lcon6]

I legit saw the thumbnail and got excited thinking I was about to vers a heavy online 😂

[@NoNo-bg8oc]

Great video! It may interest you to know however that its been a long while since bulky tank mons have been the meta in competitive Pokemon. Fast Pokemon dominate the metagame in most formats for about exactly the same reason as fast characters do in Smash, if your pokemon is faster they act first, and if they KO the opponent or use a move with a chance of Flinching, Freezing, or Paralyzing them then the player with the tank will lose an entire turn. This is especially relevant in the premier competitive format VGC where a turn might just be a fifth of the match. The only exception is when the slower Pokemon are not built to be offensive IE walls, or they have something to compensate such as Dragon Dance or Regenerator. I think this is actually a good comparison with smash as well as heavyweight characters HAVE actually been viable before, if never cream of the crop. This is only true however when the characters were designed understanding that the weight class is a weakness of the character that had to be compensated for. P+ Bowser has a bunch of good tools and increased speed to compensate, Ultimate Bowser gets Tough Guy, Melee Ganon has very good aerials and decent speed, Melee Samus has good projectiles; screw attack; CC down smash; and goofy mobility options, Kazuya one shots you, Snake has traps and great kill confirms, Brawl Dedede has a consistent chaingrab and disjoints, etc. From a designer perspective I would posit what can be learned here is that durability is almost irrelevant to viability. Super armor is a great mechanic to help heavyweights feel better to play, but overusing it doesn't actually fix the issues that Heavyweights have in a competitive setting, but it does make the character less interactive and frustrates players. The strongest smash characters of all time are a fast faller which can be chaingrabbed or one tapped by multiple other viable characters in his game and a featherlight with no projectiles. What DOES make heavyweights more viable is options which can give them back control over the match through zoning or disjoints, volatile options which can reduce the number of neutral interactions they have to win, or alternative ways to get where they want to go that don't necessarily defeat the purpose of a strong and slow character being added to the game in the first place. Or at least those are my own thoughts.

[@xozniathescalus4869]

As someone who has mained Bowser since Brawl, through Sm4sh, and still to this day in Ultimate, only becoming competitive with the game in Ultimate, heavyweights certainly can be good, in fact more than good in this iteration of Smash. Hero (Bowser) and SkyJay (Incineroar) are well within the top 25 Orion ranking, proving that it is 100% possible. Yes, the game favours everyone but heavyweights (as there’s no heavyweight besides the outlier Kazuya in top 20) but that doesn’t mean heavyweights can’t be good or can’t do it at all. The main reason why I loved to play Bowser in my casual years, was because he was simple, straightforward, and packed a punch (and also because I just love Bowser as a character). The reason I still play him in my competitive era are still for that reason but also because I’m aware of the strengths and weaknesses that come with it, and the strengths are more valuable to me than anyone else, and the price I pay is worth it. Heavyweights can do it, and they have done it.

[@wutzerapple3]

Going off the Pokémon speed analogy, in the original Pokémon games speed effected crit rate, and that single handily made tauros the best (excluding mewtwo who was banned for being a legendary but was good for the same reason)

[@geminiguy6032]

All I ask is that they give Ganondorf the ability to fly like Peach and Daisy after he uses his up special. Let it only last for like 2 seconds, do whatever you gotta do, just give my guy the option to possibly not get gimped at 15%.

[@supportmain8509]

You shoud make a 4th Challenge about Pokemon at this point. I love would to see it, you could do like “why did x Pokemon Fall off in the competitve scene”

[@Aurora_Veill]

small asterisk as a pokemon nerd: speed is in fact arguably the most important stat in competitive pokemon, because you will get more turns than your opponent if your opponent is dead, asleep, or frozen. thats why garchomp was so overpowering in gen 4 OU, because it had 102 base speed instead of 100, allowing it to outspeed much more pokemon

[@maornelas183]

Great video but I will say that your comparison to speed in Pokemon was pretty misplaced. Speed is arguably the single most important stat in Pokemon and there are dozens of Pokemon that are considered unviable just because they're slow (Rhyperior is great example ironically enough). I'd recommend watching FalseSwipeGaming's video called "Speed Might Be Everything" if you're curious about this.