Why Humans Will Never Colonize Mars with Gizmodo’s George Dvorsky

[@nicosteffen364]

With a delay of around 20 minutes, direct control with feedback is impossible!

[@devon7008]

Yes, even at the speed of light, the latency would preclude any virtual control.

[@mrdownboy]

Not if you're orbiting Mars

[@ChrisSchaff]

@@mrdownboy wouldn't that sorta defeat the purpose?

[@MartinBelcher]

It's worse than that, he means explore a virtual simulation. I.e. stay at home and play video games

[@stevencoardvenice]

Yeah I noticed that too. Can't do an Avatar style thing, with remote control bodies. Have to park a spaceship in Mars orbit to do that

[@gazdubai]

The problem with "never" is that you have forever to be wrong.

[@scene247]

Agreed. There's been a bunch of nevers in our history, look at us now.

[@alonzoasenjo5980]

500 years ago Europeans would never reach India by sea

[@gazdubai]

@@alonzoasenjo5980 Oh dear, you should have looked into that one first.

[@vaolin1703]

@@gazdubai But it's the same case with "forever", I guess.

[@stevelenores5637]

And forever to be right.

[@WatchesTrainsAndRockets]

The point that he misses withe the virtual colonization idea is that we want to colonize to expand the number of planets available to humanity. It is NOT for a virtual joyride on another planet.

[@executivesteps]

Earth 1, Mars 2 what next??? If Mars didn't exist in our Solar System would we even have these kinds of fantasies?

[@kennethirgendwas4616]

@@executivesteps look at the channel of isaac arthur. he has videos about concepts for colonizing almost every planet in the solar system

[@berserkasaurusrex4233]

@@kennethirgendwas4616 Including colonizing the Sun.

[@u.v.s.5583]

Let us colonize UrAnus, Neptune and Pluto.

[@EveryoneWhoUsesThisTV]

I think Titan comes after Mars...

[@xofcenter5576]

The relevant constraints are not social, legal, ethical, or even spiritual. The constraints are economic. We will colonize Mars if it becomes economically desirable to do so. Perhaps we never will because it won't be worth it compared to alternatives like orbital, artificial habitats. But if it becomes an economic advantage for any potentially capable group, then it will happen.

[@nightlightabcd]

And they will die by horable physical deformities, which of course, will lead to mental and emotional deformities! In the world of reality, a colony is a none starter! But the US is no longer within reality and will get much worse, possibly real soon!

[@berserkasaurusrex4233]

@Cullen Guimond Just go outside at night. There, fixed the majority of your radiation issues. You're welcome.

[@leomarkaable1]

@Cullen Guimond I am undergoing radiation treatment for metastatic prostate cancer, and I am suffering the ill effects of the radiation which is directed to kill cancer cells. The cellular detritus causes intestinal problems, for starters. I can't even imagine how horrible the effects of huge doses of cosmic rays, etc would be. I think the space exploration "boosters" need to reconsider their enthusiasm a bit. We're fragile out of our element; I think even finding people courageous enough to go to Mars unmodified so as to maximize survival will put colonization out for a long time to come.

[@jamessteven711]

Why cant we go just for fun!!!

[@micke2943]

Sure, Humans can live on Mars... but for not any long periods of time. The human body cant cope with gravity there or the radiation. No need to say that Mars babies will be deformed... Even an visit to Mars will cost you a lot from the health aspect... So no. I dont believe we will be living on Mars for another 200years atleast!

[@chippysteve4524]

A major (insurmountable?) problem with virtual colonisation at a distance is time lag for data transmission between the surface and wherever the 'human being' is,unless they're orbitting the avatar,which might only make sense if you were operating machinery that needed to be on the surface or sightseeing.

[@kirkwagner461]

Yep, and I'm surprised they haven't addressed that. Now, that could change, should we start inhabiting space stations, perhaps rotating for simulated gravity, that we could place nearby such locations to make communications times more acceptable.

[@bobmorr2892]

We could make an ISS for Mars that's a lot bigger and better than the one we have around Earth. Then scientist could control robots without a time lag. Much safer faster and cheaper then sending astronauts to the ground and no time delay. The Mars rovers of done an incredible job but I'm sure that the time delay is one of the major problems that slows their progress.

[@John-tc9gp]

The probe would scan its immediate environment with great resolution and that data would be used to create a real time simulation on earth. It wouldn't be like piloting a drone on earth, although the illusion of that could be part of the simulation.

[@zeromancer-x]

The guest seems to have forgotten about communication latency when he proposed his virtual colonization idea. 🙄

[@Gabrong]

Yes. And ffs... It is not the same to snap on a google and gloves and walk around in vr. Maybe it is an astonishing view and even feedback seems very real but when you take off the device and realise, it was nothing more valid than a dream... That would be an utterly bitter taste for me. Either going there in person or I don't care much. It's like watching someone eating a nice meal or eating it yourself.

[@nicosmind3]

Theres several points what makes me wonder why anyone would hire him. Not a very good guest imo

[@david_martin_per]

Exactly. Controlling a robot in the Moon would give you an annoying 1 full second of latency. Controlling something from mars is 15 minutes at least. Stupid idea.

[@sarahs8371]

Zeromancer you can probably fix a lot the latency problems with ai. Say in vr mars you needed to press a button so you do it in vr and the ai will recognize the action and by the time the communication for the action is completed (radio) in vr it will be shown as completed, even though it is not to avoid confusion.

[@totalermist]

The latency issue only occurs for real-time interaction. Prerecorded experiences are no problem at all - think movies, but with better technology. The same way a child from the 17th century would have a hard time imagining watching cartoons on TV when all it knows are puppet shows (at best), we have a hard time imagining the capabilities of future VR systems...

[@jeschinstad]

Virtual life using robots with haptic feedback so you can touch rocks and feel them? Someone should explain to this guy that Mars is a little far away.

[@jeschinstad]

@: Maybe he misunderestimated.

@@jeschinstad I don't know he even seemed to initiate the idea himself. Would be in line with his pet peeve of "uploading a mind" which is utterly bonkers in every sense.

[@jeschinstad]

@: Uploading a personality should be simple. Uploading a person ought to be impossible in practice.The brain is just a black box.If you analyze its inputs and outputs, you should be able to mimic my mind, even if you never understand why I behave the way I do. It's a nueral network It's not magic.

[@bhatkat]

Yeah, a bit of a problem with latency there, solvable by putting the operator on Mars or on like Deimos base. Teleprescence looks like a lot more practical than space suits, bulky, clumsy and dangerous. Little thing they don't mention is that like the space station almost all the life will happen indoors with windows an expensive luxury.

[@erikjarandson5458]

@Real M So, all the disadvantages of being on Mars, plus some, and only a few of the advantages? There will be no virtual presence on Mars unless we manage to develop ultra-broadband communication via quantum entanglement. The issues with managing that makes colonizing Mars seem like a simple proposal that can be quickly realized. At this point, it's not even theoretically possible, but extremely speculative.

[@7lllll]

why did they never discuss the light lag issue? virtually on mars with 40mins delay would be a nightmare, and you can't work very effectively

[@angeliiique-p7s]

“They” don’t want to discuss these things.

[@daleeasternbrat816]

"Animals adapt to suit their environment. Humans adapt the environment to suit them."

[@TheShootist]

Humans do both.

[@TheShootist]

@Rory Bjorkman a few insects come to mind. anything else? point, there are no insects in the arctic/antarctic.

[@djmcbratney]

@Rory Bjorkman Honestly it's kinda worse than that. Humans as a group are just another animal species that adapted to their environment over geological time, and also can, as individuals in shorter time scales, adapt our immediate environments to suit us, as many species can. Humans are exceptionally *good* at adapting the environment over the middle time scale that all other species miss out on, historical time - and we're also individually exceptionally good at adapting ourselves to new environments, lifestyles, and skills in the short term. Stands to reason that we'd also be good at adapting as a species over historical time. (The little mantra is still good for what it intends. Just not very applicable here.)

[@djmcbratney]

@Rory Bjorkman Yeah, I was agreeing with you. Just going a bit further down the rabbit hole there.

[@djmcbratney]

@Rory Bjorkman Yeah, I enjoy TreyTheExplainer a lot, quite a lot of interesting stuff in there. I've learned a lot from the paleo profiles and I enjoy the speculative evolution stuff with the cryptids, etc. as well. = ]

[@metaljack866]

Creating martians ( like humans but different ) would be like creating our own future enemies because lets be honest , humans can't even get along with each other , But maybe in the far future we can grow up , hopefully.

[@futavadumnezo]

Have you watched The Expanse? Yeah, it will definitely be war between the two planets.

[@leonlawson3252]

Bladerunner

[@IgorDz]

17:10 "I can't see why we wouldn't be able to" Delay? Or am I completely missing the point?

[@totalermist]

Depends. If we're talking about a "canned" experience with prerecorded data, then it's perfectly viable. Controlling the probes real-time, would of course require human presence near (e.g. in orbit) the probe.

[@TheHandOfFear]

​@@totalermist I thought he was talking about canned too but he specifically refers to sitting on earth and controlling a robot on mars with feedback that makes it feel like you are there. So yeah, he doesn't understand the communication lag, and I'm quite confused as to why Godier didn't call him on that.

[@TheHandOfFear]

On top of that humans in orbit doesn't fix any of the major problems with colonizing the surface. Life-support, radiation, psychological issues, etc. are all the same or worse in orbit of Mars. On the radiation issue, at least you can bury or partially bury your structures in the surface to provide a thick layer of protection. In orbit you don't really have many options except of course once again inventing a new technology that doesn't exist.

[@TheHandOfFear]

And a canned VR experience is pointless for anything but entertainment. You can't do science that way.

[@totalermist]

@@TheHandOfFear I never even considered he was referring to doing actual science that way. To me his whole point was geared towards the entertainment part, i.e. your average Joe/Jane. He never argued against humans going to Mars in the first place - it was all about the colonising idea.

[@AdarBlu]

'Gizmodo' Why sully your good name with a Gawker associate of all places?

[@iruleandyoudont9]

I do have a pretty good name. thanks

[@ecognitio9605]

Argue the points made, not the source.

[@Diogenerate]

gizmodo is cringe but he has good points

[@HylanderSB]

Gizmodo was created by Gawker...what are you trying to say?

[@LOUDMOUTHTYRONE]

Because of this channel I've been watching warhammer 40k lore.

[@billykotsos4642]

What's that about?

[@MNanme1z4xs]

40k is the most accurate representation of internet community saga.

[@triwarpcurvature9220]

BOW TO MY DARK ELDAR SUCCUBUS!

[@SpadeRZA]

By the Omnissiah! Stating that our Tech-Priests don't qualify as humans sounds like heresy.. Get the holy incense, we need to cleanse our machines

[@CrusaderSports250]

@@SpadeRZA you don't need incense, you need flamers! and cleanse yourselves of the real heretic that makes those accusations, bathe them in purification, it is better for them to burn than live their lives in heresy, you do them a kindness brother and remember the emperor on the golden throne is the embodiment of the great machine spirit, all hail the Emperor, all hail the great Machine God!. Got a bit carried away there but you know how it is!😀.

[@Hilts931]

Completely randomly - this was posted on my dog's (would have been) 18th birthday. He died on 13th of May this year, but I listened to your stuff laying on my bed the few weeks before he passed away. I know it means little to everyone else, but this helped me think that there is more than just us and maybe, just maybe, I didn't say 'goodbye' to him afterall

[@EventHorizonShow]

Our best to you.

[@raydavison4288]

💖

[@MrCmon113]

You think aliens took your dog or can resurrect him?

[@bugssy]

If I can't jump in my car to the corner market to buy cheetos and a soda to head to the beach, I'm out. Let the sink in for a moment.

[@samr.england613]

Or walk in a forest or swim in a lake, or watch squirrels playing in a tree, or hear songbirds greet the sunrise, and crickets and frogs humming to the sunset, or even enjoy the warm sun on your face. None of these things is possible on the Dead Planet.

[@Hykje]

I don't think humans will colonize mars with George Dvorsky either.

[@billykotsos4642]

Yeah exactly. Nothing will be done with that attitude. We need to be more optimistic!!!

[@mattpotter8725]

@@billykotsos4642 Optimism didn't get us to the moon. It wasn't JFK telling scientists to just do it that got us there like so many seem to think, but lots of very intelligent scientists, engineers, and other experts who did this. If faster than light communication is possible by just being optimistic why don't we set our sights higher and go for faster than light travel and colonize other galaxies instead of Mars!!!!

[@MikeKayK]

I think you guys need to watch the video before commenting ;)

[@andrasbiro3007]

@@mattpotter8725 Optimism is obviously not enough. But if you are starting from the assumption that it's impossible and don't even try, that's the surest way to fail. I'm pretty sure that "smart" people in the sixties had just as many arguments for why landing on the Moon and coming back is impossible. And they weren't entirely wrong, it was almost impossible, it took an obscene amount of resources to pull it off and still it was very risky with many unknown.

[@jwadaow]

@@MikeKayK I don't recommend watching it. It's silly.

[@TheHandOfFear]

John, why did you not address his seeming lack of understanding about real-time communication with Mars? Quite frankly I like your channel but it's clear from that misunderstanding alone that he doesn't know what he is talking about. And I'm more than a little confused about why you didn't call him on it in the interview. I would strongly urge you to either take this video down or at least create another debunking his misinformation about "virtual colonization." He doesn't understand stuff as basic as communication lag caused by the speed of light. Promoting that kind of misinformed armchair pseudoscience is quite frankly beneath your channel.

[@TraditionalAnglican]

John didn’t call him on it because he agrees with him. “Calling him on it”, might have made him less credible to those watching the video. Instead, John lost some of the credibility he previously had when he failed to point out the obvious error.

[@Deridus]

Honestly, y'all are nitpicking so hard that my desire to do some JMG Apoligetics was strangled in utero, but alas... While Terran-based lag would kill it, Near Mars Orbit would work. Every possible/probable fix was addressed but not directly, and so y'all get out the micro-nitpicks and cannot suspend the... you know what, nevermind. I watched the relevent parts again. This guy was a hack and I have a sneeking suspicion that our glorious overlord either made elementary mistakes for the sake of not offending his host, or he simply forgot about time lag because of... "reasons."

[@TheHandOfFear]

@@Deridus The fundamental laws of physics are hardly "nitpicking." As I have pointed out earlier: He specifically says you could control a robot on Mars virtually from Earth, not Mars orbit. Second: Controlling it from Mars orbit is not a solution. All the problems with colonizing the surface (life support, radiation, psychological issues, etc.) are the same or WORSE in Mars orbit. So how is that a more viable solution that just colonizing the surface? The problem isn't people nitpicking. The problem is people jumping through some wild hoops and cherrypicking his words to try to make it sound like he actually knows what he is talking about.

[@Deridus]

@@TheHandOfFear I agree with you in all particulars. Gods, I wonder how often people actually admit being wrong on the internet. Feels like I'm alone in that at times.

[@TheHandOfFear]

@@Deridus Yeah, I wish more people understood it's a strength, not a weakness.

[@vernonkroark]

Ah, I see. His article title was basically click bait.

[@jwadaow]

The body of the article is no improvement.

[@kenerwin5716]

You should delete the word "basically" from your comment.

[@bestdjaf7499]

We are not even going to Mars. It's all Musk bull. It's too dangerous & too far. " We can't even colonize the moon. " There is no magnetic field. There are the send storms for months. There is a constant heavy radiation. ....

[@vernonkroark]

@@bestdjaf7499 Well, if you were in charge of colonizing space we for sure wouldn't. I have an idea. Why don't you just sit back in your negativity chair and watch us. You might just be surprised. We don't expect you to do anything. We don't need your help. You are right, though. YOU won't colonize Mars. YOU won't colonize the Moon. YOU will never accomplish anything. Have you ever done anything that was hard, or do you just give up on everything? You know this isn't just Elon Musk, right? Also, you only listed 3 problems. There's also the gravity issue, there's is practically no atmosphere, and the soil is toxic in multiple ways. That's not even considering the psychological issues will experience. And yet, we are going to solve every single one of those problems. And fortunately, we don't need you to do anything. We got this, and yes, I'm including myself in that "we." Now, if you will excuse me, I have to finish my astrophysics degree. Thanks for the motivation, though.

[@bestdjaf7499]

@@vernonkroark What do you mean the "negativity chair". It all costs money. Why do You think all these rich guys doing a space program all at the same time? * I guess they have finished "helping" the poor or something. And this stupid Musk. I really dislike the guy with all his idiotic ideas. They are building a Hyperloop in India!! The poor Indians are crying that they don't have roads!!! And now these poor people have to pay for a stupid Hyperloop. * Bill Gates is begging for the last 10 years to help him to build the Thorium reactors. It's supposed to run on the nuclear waste & ..... And there are a million good projects like that. And instead of doing something good, we are throwing money at Hyperloop or Mars. At least China & Trump want to get to the moon first. * It's only 3 days trip. It kind of makes sense. But Mars?!? People probably wouldn't survive the trip to the Mars. 3 month in space = 6 month recovery. These guys cannot walk after 3-6 month. They go blind & stuff. One way to Mars is 9 month. There are only 2-3 people who stayed that long in space & they stayed in low orbit. * Even if people manage to make all the way to Mars & somehow recover, what are they going to do over there?!? They will walk around? They will start digging or something!?! They probably wouldn't be able to lift a shovel... They will probably go crazy & kill each other.

[@dpeasehead]

When self sustaining human colonies exist on the ocean floor at the same depth as the Titanic, I will become a true believer in a future for the human colonization of space.

[@samr.england613]

Or how 'bout just a SELF-SUSTAINING colony in the heart of Antarctica? Hell, Antartica has air and water ice everywhere, normal gravity, and is a balmy paradise compared to Mars. Musk and all the idiots who hinge on his every word are full of bs.

[@onebylandtwoifbysearunifby5475]

This guy didn't tell you what you wanted to hear😂 He's Spot-On though. And anybody with significant biology education knows it. He gave accurate and insightful information. Yeah, they didn't agree with the "MARS ONE" folks. All the better👍

[@chrisw.5138]

Underrated comment. The gizmo guy just points out the obvious, he is not advocating or virtue signaling. Just because this is not what I or others wish to hear, doesn't mean it is not true. Some comments on here are just sad. BTW, putting O'Neill Cylinders or such around planets and moons not really suitable for permanent human habitation is more feasible, healthier, economical and much more humane and secure than any on the ground permanent colony and does allow for part time in situ exploration and real time virtual exploration. And of course it does allow for those 'colonists' to go back to Earth. True 'Martians' would be simply incapable putting feet on the Earth and live to tell the tale. Just a thought.

[@destrobatman5640]

We can work the soil much easier than he thinks.we can go😃he a hater.we can go there and colonize it .

[@sunnyvalentino]

I suspect his attackers are almost exclusively from the Elon cult. Think about it, there's few reasons to get worked up about a niche topic like this unless you are hyped up about Elons marketing and have your ego associated with his goals.

[@onebylandtwoifbysearunifby5475]

@@sunnyvalentino Yes i think you're exactly right. There is unquestionably an "Elon Cult" populated by unquestioning people. These same people are probably waiting for their "Hyperloop" ride to arrive right now. Hope they brought their umbrella. Mars is a much harder task than even the Moon. It's not happening any time soon. We would need to modify human biology significantly and create our own home-grown Martians. Human physiology was designed for Earth. Earth but not even Mt. Everest, which you can walk to. Even with oxygen tanks Everest will kill you quick, and it's warm and at atmospheric pressure. Mars is none of those, yet people are buying tickets to Crazy Train Elon (which is also a synonym for "Hyperloop").

[@sunnyvalentino]

@One by Land, Two if by Sea Run if by Air dunno if your comment got censored but im glad you see the light. His marketing skills and ability to capitalize on societies divisions (like right and left) is dangerous, as are his goals (look up the cruelty and dangers of nueralink, the dangers of "autopilot ") and his treatment and regard for people who trigger him.

[@harrisbuzz]

I would really appreciate a show about transhumanism. Especially the ethical issues that it brings up, which are legion. For someone whose credentials included bioethics, if I recall correctly, your guest's attitudes about transhumanism were cavalier to put it mildly. I find that many futurists focus heavily on the biological or technological substrate when thinking about sentience. They forget the crucial influence of the environment in which the substrate exists.

[@EventHorizonShow]

Thank you for your comment and for watching!

[@darelboyer6764]

As I see it, the only objectively real "ethical issues" with transhumanism are personal - i.e. do /I/ the individual want to augment my personal physical form with technology? Since questions like, "is it good for humanity" or "is it good for society" cannot be divorced from the reality of the individual, those questions are actually "is it good for me". Would love to hear your thoughts.

[@harrisbuzz]

@@darelboyer6764 For the most part I do not have a problem with people choosing to change or augment their physical body. The form of transhumanism that concerns me is the translation of a person's consciousness into an artificial digital storage medium, assuming that such an option proves possible. This idea creates a host of issues. Our law, economics, politics, etc. are predicated on a reality in which people die. Could we come up with a functional and just society confronted with immortality? Perhaps so, but give it some thought. It's pretty daunting, especially if it is an option chosen by some and not by others. Or if it is only *available* as a choice for a few. As to your argument that the question "Is it good for me" is the same as "Is it good for humanity/society," the logical counterexamples are endless. The presence of a legal system (laws, courts, police) curtails the economic and social potential of individuals willing to use violence and theft to maximize their wealth and power. But a society in such a "state of nature" as Thomas Hobbes called it would be horrible for the vast majority of people in it. If you'd like more counterexamples, just let me know. I see from your playlists that you are interested in Ayn Rand's thinking. I used to be an objectivist. I read almost all of her fiction and most of her nonfiction. However, one cannot logically deduce an appropriate economic system from the property of identity ("A is A"). If so, Ms. Rand never wrote out the logical proof/formula to demonstrate it. She certainly argued in her nonfiction writing that such was the case. She just never provided the logical/mathematical demonstration. That was the opening crack for me. Eventually the whole house of cards came apart as I started to poke at it with a growing skepticism. That was my experience, in any case.

[@Myrddnn]

Oh, come now. How could you consider that virtual colonization would work from earth to Mars, much less Europa with the speed of light lag? Minutes to hours for Mars and days for Europa. That would be the least workable "VR" I could imagine.

[@telenn4208]

Days to Europa? It only takes light 5 hrs to get to pluto..... why would it take days to get to Europa?

[@Myrddnn]

@@telenn4208 you are, in fact, correct. However, even the 12.6secs to Mars is far to long for real time virtual reality. That was my point.

[@Mega6501]

Quantum entanglement could be way of communication.

[@Myrddnn]

@@Mega6501 true. Let me know when we figure that one out. It would be a big boon and could even lead to FTL, if we can figure out how to make that work.....

[@Myrddnn]

My bad. I got the times wrong. However, Mars, the closest planted has a minimum delay of 12.6secs. That makes "virtual colonization" unworkable.

[@calvingreene90]

The robot presence colony idea requires faster than light communications. Even for the moon.

[@pumpuppthevolume]

hmm 1.3 sek ....or 2.6 sek to send a command and receive the result ....if there is something that can't be done on the moon in any other way except by using a telepresence bot kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYXaaKRpYqehbK8 using it for 40 min is doable .....but that's as far as how useful that can be

[@powerzx]

I don't agree with that statetment that "people will never colonize Mars". I wasted almost 40 minutes of my life watching it.

[@martinw245]

Yep... nonsense. This video underestimates the power of technology and human innovation. They once said we would never travel faster than 30 mph or our ear drums would burst, then Stehenson built his rocket (steam engine) They also said we would never fly faster than sound or orbit the Earth or land on the moon, we did all of those things. Colonists will undoubtedly colonize Mars and probably set up base in Mars's abundant laver tubes. Robert Zubrin would quickly deal with this nonsense video. This guy hasn't a clue what he's talking about. 2030 - 2040 predictions to go to Mars. Utter nonsense. Elon Musk will get us there within 10 years. I mean Musk has already tested spacehopper, it's done its first hop, destined to put a man on Mars. And this guy is so uninformed he isnt even aware of the delay in comms between Earth and Mars.

[@pranees]

Thank god for saving "40 minutes" of my life😂😂

[@d.t.4523]

Agreed. I stopped after 5 minutes though.

[@martinw245]

@lasest2 "KZbin scientist claim that our battery technology is at its top" Yep... clearly not a scientist. We have graphene battery tech, solid state battery tech and numerous other technologies just a couple of years away that will double range and increase recharge times to a few minutes. :)

[@martinw245]

@lasest2 Sorry, KZbin is doing weird things and stopping me viewing some of your previous reply and replying to the last. But yes, sadly KZbin is full of individuals like that, that post contraversial or downright nonsensical stuff to get views and ultimately make more money. Theres actually a company that has already started small scale graphene based battery production and is shipping to its partners. Read about it the other day. Theres a good "fully charged" video too, where they visit a company and see first hand prototype graphene batteries being tested. So yes, the individual you mention is talking utter crap.

[@eddieclay92]

I have grown to really like John Michael Godier's narrative voice. It grabs my attention and he's makes difficult subjects easy to understand.

[@tarumph]

Virtual reality? The biggest problem is the delay due to transmission time of 4-24 minutes. No real-time waving your robotic arms. See an interesting rock? Command the rover to grab it, eat dinner, go to bed, and look at it the next day.

[@shasamonaghan8498]

An advanced relay system might sort that out "somewhat" BUt your right in the way we need a massive amount of other infrastructure before mars is plausible, I would rather an Orbital space dock and a number of near earth and atmosphere capable shuttles before we spend stupid money on a back and forth trip with no science value.

[@jeffvader811]

@@shasamonaghan8498 *"An advanced relay system might sort that out "somewhat""* The problem of time delay is still persistent. Relaying doesn't change the picture much, in fact it adds to the time delay. *"I would rather an Orbital space dock and a number of near earth and atmosphere capable shuttles"* See the ISS, the Space Shuttle. LEO is, for all intents and purposes, already halfway into colonisation, the satellite industry alone is worth some $230 billion, and there's been a constant human presence in space for nearly two decades. *"before we spend stupid money on a back and forth trip with no science value."* I dispute that claim. A manned mission to Mars could enable the discovery (or absence) of life on another planet, in the prior case this would: -Prove that life isn't a fluke phenomena. -Assist in solving the Fermi paradox. -Massively advance the study of Abiogenesis (which as of today has only one case study to work off, us. That is the worst possible sample size to draw conclusions from!). -Massively advance the study of evolution (we could see how life evolved in a completely different global climate). -Massively advance the study of foreign biological processes that we may not find on Earth (who knows what chemical processes life on Mars may have evolved? Perhaps these could be useful in medicine?). In the latter case this would: -Prove that life is a fluke phenomena. -Assist in solving the Fermi paradox. -Massively advance the study of Abiogenesis, specifically that its really really hard. In addition to this we would learn more about planetary formation and geology, which are important in themselves for understanding the Earth's geological evolution. There is immense science value in going to Mars, if there wasn't do you really think that space agencies would be throwing tens of spacecraft it's way?

[@shasamonaghan8498]

@@jeffvader811 thank you for the replyXx IM all for understanding bio-genesis i myself ascribe to more of a rare earth hypothesis in term of advanced life but at a guess i assume bacterium to be common place, i still don't believe a maned mission is anything more then prestige when an orbital dock and yard would enable us to manufacture much more sophisticated robots to explore the better targets for life in the Saturn system or further out Jupiter/Kyper-belt , I fear a maned mission to mars is a ghastly expensive and dangerous operation with little advancement machines cant give us in much lass trouble, i feel looking to the stars misguides people into believing we have other options then fixing the home we have, however i do see scientific value in understanding what this life is and whether we stand alone in a void kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqKonoyLbb6SqKs

[@jeffvader811]

​@@shasamonaghan8498 "I fear a maned mission to mars is a ghastly expensive and dangerous operation with little advancement machines cant give us in much lass trouble" A manned mission to Mars would, in all likelihood, be significantly more beneficial to science than a robotic one. Lets take the Curiosity rover as an example, it has driven 21.5km in 7 years of travel, or a speed of about 0.13km a month. In comparison, Apollo 17, the last mission to the moon, travelled 35km in 3 days, or a speed of 350km a month! This means that, assuming our Astronauts could keep up this speed, on an 18 month Mars mission you could travel 6300km! For comparison, Mars has a circumference of 21,344km. To go the same distance in a rover would take you about 4000 years, you would need hundreds or thousands of rovers to match the capability of one manned mission, it's clear which is the most cost effective. So in terms of speed/cost a manned mission is both the cheapest and quickest way to explore the entire surface of Mars. Such a plan does come with considerable risk however, you would be putting the lives of humans on the line, but we do that already for much less noble things, like war. There is no shortage of people who would be willing to put their life on the line for knowledge of the unknown. "i feel looking to the stars misguides people into believing we have other options then fixing the home we have" I would disagree, having looked up at the stars and planets through a telescope I became ever more aware of how fragile our position is. One war that goes too far, one unlucky asteroid, one gamma ray burst, at any minute a fluke event could wipe out all of the beautiful complexities of Earth's environment and our culture. I think that if we wish to be true environmentalists, we must not only concern ourselves with the problems of today but also the problems of tomorrow, preserving and spreading life itself (although much less immediately pressing) is equally as important for our long term survival as stopping climate change. We don't want our ancestors in 100 or 1000 years time cursing us because we selfishly decided not to protect their existence. Much like how we curse people of the past for not anticipating climate change or world wars.

[@shasamonaghan8498]

@@jeffvader811 that's really beautifully put friend, whatever happens i hope reason and science continue uninterrupted by politics and war, and i still feel mift at the cut backs so many reasons to fear for earth and home, if anything maybe a maned mission might generate a fervor and excitement not seen i a few generations something better/something bigger we can all ascribe too a common dream of earth and space over borders and the semantics of small minded greed and false value,

[@shaheertariq2937]

Im glad most people in the comments also intuitively picked up on the latency issue with virtually living on Mars. I was losing my mind over such an important point being completely ignored. I don’t mean to be too critical but I have a couple other thoughts on that idea. For one, if our VR/robotics capabilities are advanced such that we can virtually ‘’live” on a fully immersive and genuinely interactive Mars, it will probably also be true that we can simulate a truly virtual equivalent with no tangible grounding. I dont see any added value or distinguishable difference that would warrant experiencing the ‘real thing’ versus the simulation. The much easier route to virtual living would be to map the surface of mars with suffcient detail to create this virtual world (in which there is no latency). Some people might argue that its not the same, but if you were in the VR mars (assuming our tech has advanced enough) and were told its the virtually-linked real thing, its no different than questioning whether the rest of the universe is a simulation. Perhaps more importantly, I dont see how the proposed idea in the discussion is at all practical considering it would require allowing, say, hundreds of sovereign individuals to fuck with mars however they please. It would be real-world Minecraft... Unless we’re willing to also have ‘police’ (government) overseeing it all of course. Which also does not seem like a good idea. Much easier to let people fuck around in the simulation all they want without actually disrupting the planet and its purity.

[@EventHorizonShow]

Minecraft Mars would be quite the hit. Thank you for watching.

[@shaheertariq2937]

And thanks for uploading, John. I watch your videos on both channels religiously and would hate to come across as a cynic. Really appreciate the work you do. Honestly, the latency issue made me pretty sad. Its a good way of illustrating the speed of light as being the speed limit on information travel and putting it into perspective. It reminds me how slow that speed ultimately is in the context of the size of the universe. We’ll need almost exponentially FTL travel/info processing to ever meaningfully communicate with the universe at an individual level. Heres to hoping that our current understanding of relativity is deeply flawed and some random breakthrough occurs in our lifetimes.

[@nostrum6410]

@J. Buxter-Fleener lol, i really cannot believe people like you are real

[@chrisw.5138]

Minecraft, Police, really??? Mars is only valuable for humanity in proving extraterrestrial life, furthering scientific understanding, and - above all - the only other real life reason why anyone would put up with the outrageous funding in the first place is in fact: mining. (and tourism of course, which means going back to Earth). The notion to preserve a dead world for the sake of it is just ludicrous. By the way, strip mining is child's play vis a vis the extremely violent process of terra-forming. You didn't like what you were hearing and it didn't fit and hurt your rose-tinted romantic sci-fi view, so you decided to come up with 'didn't mean to be too critical, but'. The gizmo guy just points out the very very obvious. Just because this is not what you, I (indeed) or others wish to hear, doesn't mean it is not true. Putting O'Neill Cylinders or such around planets and moons obviously not suitable for permanent human habitation is more sensible, feasible, economical and much more humane and secure than any on the ground permanently inhabitated colony and does allow for part time in situ exploration as well as real time virtual exploration. And of course it does give those 'colonists' the freedom to go back to Earth if they want to, instead of being 0.39g prisoners in a truly desolate wasteland world. True 'Martians' would be simply incapable putting feet on the Earth and live to tell the tale. This is all very real science and is brought up in the video several times from different point of views by the guest, but obviously wasn't registered by your 'intuition'.

[@kokofan50]

He makes a lot of assertions without much to back them.

[@346UNCLEBOB]

The problem with virtual presence on Mars is communication time lag. Speed of light is what it is. HOW do you get around this?

[@bs8716]

Guy says we should be altering our genome to survive on Mars. WE BARELY UNDERSTAND OUR GENOME. Beyond that are the extreme ethical concerns.

[@yoshimansxl]

Interesting proposition. Cyborgs be colonizing mars? It sounds plausible. We will need to overcome biological limits to conquer space.

[@billykotsos4642]

Despise the Flesh... it is what holds us back!!!

[@yoshimansxl]

@@billykotsos4642 Yeah, I can imagine myself as a cyborg visiting mars before going to certain exoplanets I really really want to check out: The Trappist 1 system.

[@Bitchslapper316]

I'm still holding out hope that we build star trek like star ships to travel the galaxy in complete comfort, holodeck and all.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

A cyborg are defined as biology plus technology together. There is no need for artificial components to be installed into a living body. An astronaut in a spacesuit is a cyborg. No need to rebuild the human body to colonize Mars, just use gear. Over time a martian adapted human subrace will probably evolve and we may choose to call them martians but they will be no less human, just a bit different.

[@mbp7060]

All fantasy.

[@lindenstromberg6859]

I'd LOVE to have a remote VR controlled robot on Mars, but the LAG! 6-43 minutes, plus the sun can get in the way of signals. The best way would be to import the entire environment into a virtual world, interact lag-free and transmit the movements back to the robots on Mars. The problem is this is going to create a lot of error. I can't see this being done with a lot of AI correction.

[@EventHorizonShow]

Valid points.

[@vcuheel1464]

Gamers complain when their lag is a tenth of a second. :)

[@alphatangovideo5308]

Overlooking the lag issue was absolute amateur hour stuff, I can't believe how much time was wasted on that

[@lindenstromberg6859]

@@alphatangovideo5308 I think it's still not out of the question uploading observed data to a cyberspace environment, and then using AI to replicate the movements within the limitations, and use AI to correct the unforeseen issues not replicable (like blowing dust, malfunctions, or fallen objects). Then there's also hypothetical means like a hyperspace/subspace signal to cut the lag to nothing; though we then get into the realm of SciFi.

[@alphatangovideo5308]

@@lindenstromberg6859 To what end though? If you upload the environment to cyberspace, then what does your interaction add? If you tell the robot to pick up a rock it hasn't already processed, then you're back to waiting around. And if it's already processed it, you picking it up doesn't really achieve anything. You'd just be playing a more boring version of No Man's Sky. At optimistic best, you _might_ get to play a really slow city builder type "game", but it's not certainly going to be real-time. As to Hypersupersubspace solutions, I'm fairly sure we'll be some way beyond colonizing Mars by the time that comes to pass, if it does at all.

[@BreechBangClear]

I thought this video would start with scientific reasons as to why humans wouldn’t or can’t colonize Mars but instead they immediately jump into an unrealistic tangent about genetic modification and sci fi babble smh

[@nostrum6410]

there will never be a good enough reason to colonize mars

[@mikejones-vd3fg]

@@nostrum6410 what about to get away from negative depressive people with no hope that want to sit inside their cave all day and collect shiney stones?

[@MouseGoat]

@@nostrum6410 Why not? think its gonna go quik. First you have a science outpost. Then this outpost will being grow, "tourist" will come (there's a lot of people that want to stand under a foreign sky) Expeditions to climbing the mountains of mars will be made, and with it interests in building more livable spaces and industry to trade with eart. And soon after that you gonna have a self sustaining colony where people will spend years of life, and someday not long after that when tings have grown enough people will live there daticating themself to building more livable space. " never be a good enough reason to colonize mars" ? like what are talking about? there's already tonse and at the rate things a going, the first big colony might very well be on mars before 2040

[@leandrolapa8461]

-18 average temperature, crappy gravity, pretty much no water, no atmosphere. Only robots are suited for these dire conditions. These futuristic genetics are pure speculation.

[@bosoerjadi2838]

@@leandrolapa8461 You forgot cosmic radiation. Mars has no magnetosphere. It is practically as hostile to life as the Moon. The only things that make Mars 'better' than the Moon are a higher gravity and a more colourful view.

[@timothywhite2666]

No offense, but stay at home civilizations is *NOT* a solution to the fermi paradox. The question isn't whether *some* civs would stay at home, but rather would every single member of every single civ stay home. Stay at home civs would still need material resources unless they cracked entropy. It just.... is not a valid solution. There are many flaws.

[@ski8799]

the lack of humanity in his descriptions of altered humans through Crispr DNA tinkering sickens me, oh the ego...

[@khaccanhle1930]

I'm reminded of experts of the late 1800s: man will never fly. So much for experts.

[@Telleryn]

Except this is less like being able to fly, and more like being able to live your entire life on a plane that neever lands.

[@u.v.s.5583]

Man will never sit in front of monitors and make silly clicking noises with mice and keyboards.

[@mikejones-vd3fg]

Its true, man is just too heavy, do the math, one would have to flap his arms at an unimaginable speed its impossible! (my impression of people saying latency will be a problem)

[@mikejones-vd3fg]

@@Telleryn We're living on a rock flying through space that never lands on anything. So its possible.

[@pick6whodat]

Im comfortable here on Earth. Thanks

[@JonathanRootD]

It's not a matter of IF but WHEN.

[@HankMeyer]

Personally, I think it makes more sense to focus our efforts on colonizing interplanetary space, instead of planets and moons. In other words, space stations and space ships that simulate the environment we actually evolved in. Moslty because we can control more environmental features of an artificial habitat in microgravity, than we can on a planet, but also because it takes less fuel to move supplies between space stations than it does to move supplies between planets that are the same distance apart, and because we get to control where space stations are located and how many of them there are. We can't do that with planets and moons.

[@dmitryshusterman9494]

Why do we want to live away from earth? It's not gonna happen simply for lack of reasons

[@JFrazer4303]

@@dmitryshusterman9494 People who work up there will need good conditions like in a Stanford Torus space colony and not in a little tin can like the ISS or one of SpaceX "Starship" upper stages. We know from the '70s NASA/Stanford space settlement studies that no new inventions are needed to build large habitats for virtually Earth-like conditions in space (at Mars or orbiting Jupiter or etc) We need a university city at Mars, and among Jupiter's moons, and they'll need full Earth G and radiation shielding. And let's not get into the red herring of trashing the Earth and moving into space. Without the resources of space we're stuck down here in oil wars and eventually water wars, with nothing but a species-wide die-off to look forward to. With the resources of the inner Solar system we could not only survive but thrive during +6degreeC warming or an ice age, or Yellowstone. Earth is the planet we'll terraform, and we can't do it from down here only.

[@dmitryshusterman9494]

@@JFrazer4303 social problems will not be solved by technology. Going to space will not save us from ourselves. Even if going to space is a worthy goal, it's a separate issue from greed and selfishness eating us from within. Humans simply can't adapt fast enough to keep up with changes they create. Shipping half of humans to Mars is dumb and won't happen.

[@JFrazer4303]

I never said or thought that it would make everybody just be nice to each other. Only that access to minerals or energy or room for growth, would no longer have scarcity value. It's always been recognized that bad ideas are the biggest danger. Memes as in mental constructs can travel at speed of light, and act like a virus causing spread. As we've seen, large numbers of people in a strong ideology can do great and terrible things. Some reasonable people will say to hold nothing too strongly and trust the data. Change deeply held beliefs (especially those that rely on accepting the unseen), as dictated by the data; don't change your input of new data to preserve a conviction. Go where the data takes you, don't pick whatever data only supports your previous conviction. Read about how embarrassing it was for the people who had to report that they'd discovered what we know as "dark energy". Shipping off-planet a large number of people is a silly, bad S.F. trope, not a reasonable suggestion of things we could/should do. Historically, no more than a few percent of a parent population has ever joined in a new migration. However it is known that the only proven way to permanently reduce a population's growth rate and make things better overall, is education and freedom of inquiry and innovation including women and girls, as parts of having a high standard of living. We can encourage out-migration once new O'Neill habitats are being built in Earth/Moon space, by incentivizing it. You want more than 2 kids per couple? The only place you can do that is off-planet, and it'll be a long time before any space colony can accept non-working residents. It'll happen just as new heavy industry will happen: not down here. I wasn't talking about a new civilization, but exploration bases at places of interest and making some effort to tame the ecliptic by learning to mine and move NEAs.

[@finalbossoftheinternet6002]

The sun will go from main sequence to red giant and then explode eventually anyway. Humans have to become a space faring civilization or die.

[@Mrbfgray]

The sun will NOT explode, it's something like 16 X too small for that.

[@nostrum6410]

doenst mean anybody will colonize mars.

[@troruaz]

Is the assumption of VR include real-time interaction with physical objects? Isn't mars like 10-48 light-minutes away? And the jovian moons waaay farther?

[@jato72]

I was going to bring up this same point. Maybe it would be non-interactive and experiential only.

[@prusak26]

@@jato72 he specifically talks about doing work, like lifting rocks and things like that, not just roaming around. I'm surprised and disappointed that John didn't pick him up on that. They spent good 10-15 mins of a 40 min episode exclusively discussing this subject and time lag was not mentioned once.

[@aresmars2003]

Certainly! Even earth-moon distance time delay would be tough for VR interfaces. Like you can "turn your head 45 degrees left" and wait 2.5 seconds to see the view update! The realistic alternative might be, if you have a virtual model of an environment, an avatar can interact with the virtual model and then press "go" to do the same with the robot, and then wait X minutes to see how that worked. So basically what the rovers are doing now!

[@troruaz]

@@aresmars2003 Yeah, rovers to this point have been exactly "script driven" since '96 but all that talk, expense, work, etc for a human driver to do some different version of what we do now seems kinda wasted effort. And the notion of "2.5 seconds" delay is out of the window once you go beyond the moon's distance.

[@YouListenToMeNow]

Vr colonization is impossible due to brodcast delay related to distance from earth to Mars or anywhere else... John... Of all people, at least you should have noticed that... 😒

[@OSGondar]

why are you all so limited and not think a bit more. Obviously, we would fix that point. We can easily launch probes and technology to fix it FAR sooner than actually go there. Having an avatar is a natural assumption since we are working so hard on making robots and Ai etc. You guys are being so negative over something you fail to imagine and insist is not possible while putting him down when its you saying its not possible. I dont get this comment at all. We obviously would accomplish that far sooner than actually moving humanity there. We already do this with rovers and such why wouldn't we set up some tech along the way for an information highway. Its seems like a huge duh. Especially when we know that humans degrade rapidly in low gravity it makes all the sens in the world to send an avatar just like we do TODAY! We already do that! The only difference is we could all land a probe there to build infostructure, mine it etc or just avoid it altogether and only mine the place while looking for a planet we can actually survive on.

[@82spiders]

As they say, "Never is a long time".

[@bs8716]

“We should have a VR experience on another planet instead of colonization.” Two reasons why this is both misguided and unfeasible. 1. Latency. We already have had multiple successful rovers on Mars (doesn’t seen like he knows this). NASA would send commands in bulk because the layency made it impossible to control in resl time. 2. We are not attempting to colonize mars for fun VR experience or science. We are doing it for survival and internal drive to constantly expand.

[@resilientfarmsanddesignstu1702]

As to the the gravity differential. I don’t see why we couldn’t make Martian space suits that weigh 330 lbs so that a man that weighs 200 lbs on Earth would feel like they weigh 200 lbs on Mars. We could manufacture them from Martian materials. Over time, we could reduce the weight until we eventually adapt to Martian gravity. Why not?

[@gimzod76]

Oh I agree as a Martian landowner I don't want anyone who works for gawker media on my slice of the red planet

[@drmachinewerke1]

Where did you purchase your property

[@Jameson1776]

drmachinewerke1 the same place that has the Brooklyn bridge up for sale.

[@seymoronion8371]

*Had

[@cmdrterrorfirma4244]

How would a "Virtual Colonist" ... via a robot and virtual reality connection be viable? the time it takes to communicate both ways (commands and return feedback) precludes anything beyond what we have now with the robots on Mars. slow... send command and wait... send command and wait...

[@michaelpettersson4919]

A virtual colonist are pointless.

[@nevermind-he8ni]

You'd have better luck colonizing the Marinas Trench. Good luck with that.

[@springer-qb4dv]

Indeed, I say if you are going to try to colonize Mars, do it here on earth first. We can easily simulate Mars environment (except for low gravity). Lets see how "colonists" make out. Elon Musk should be the first involuntary colonist! LOL Remember biosphere experiment failed spectacularly even with much easier requirements.

[@mikewade777]

@@springer-qb4dv the Arizona experiment was a total failure

[@gabrielmarian698]

@@mikewade777 Biosphere 2.

[@frankjohnson8750]

I personally would never want to be a Martian unless we discovered a huge asteroid was on the way, on a collision course with the Earth. I might consider going for a visit, maybe. I've had the privilege of seeing quite a bit of the USA during my time working for AT&T. I think I could spend most of the rest of my life seeing the rest of it, let alone the rest of this planet. There is so much beauty here and so much to experience.

[@raffaelevalente7811]

Most people hate the word "never", that's the reason of so many dislikes. Nevertheless humans will *never* colonize Mars: there is no sensible reason and no profitable reason to do it. I even find hard to understand WHY the hell do they want a manned mission there? It's expensive, dangerous and useless.

[@chrisberger6987]

Really great video. Thought provoking. I was surprised how keen you both were on the virtual reality system for exploring the planets. The signal time lag prevents real-time interactions.

[@acaglumac]

John the time lag!! How did you not catch that?? You can't control a robot on Mars from Earth in real time. Please address this issue, you are better than that.

[@broken1965]

We would need a highway of satellite access points

[@acaglumac]

@@broken1965 that would not speed it up. It would actually slow it down. Nothing can go faster than the speed of light (except space). When we send a radio signal to Mars it travels by the speed of light but since Mars is far it takes minutes to tens of minutes for the signal to get there.

[@jameseldridge4185]

All of Mars is colder and dryer than is Antarctica.

[@jondoc7525]

Not true completely highway recorded temp is like 65. We can do it if it was our goal as a species

[@bitmaster9528]

We don't have any research that says martian gravity is actually all that detrimental to the human physiology. Yes micro gravity that is experienced on the space station has a multitude of effects. But we don't really know anything about long term effects of low gravity like the moon or mars.

[@DeadMarine1980]

I think a more efficient way for humans to live off planet and maintain our biology would be to build hundreds if not thousands of Space habitats.

[@averageheretic]

Gizmodo? Come on John. You're better than the normies.

[@slapdashsoviet]

Seriously. This guy's lame clickbait hot takes aren't worthy of this series.

[@ecognitio9605]

Using the word normie lol

[@averageheretic]

E Cognitio 🤷‍♂️ lol What can I say, I'm an old bundle of sticks.

[@stoneeh]

First, you're missing the whole point of colonizing Mars, which is a backup for if a catastrophe should happen on Earth. For this purpose we need a sufficient number of humans, at least a few hundred, to maintain a sufficiently diverse gene pool. Second, Mars has the resources (gravity, CO², water, light, ...) for self sustaining habitats that we, as humans, with our near-future technology could relatively easily create.

[@stoneeh]

Space habitats are a terrible idea. Gravity you can maybe generate via spinning; but you have no water, no atmosphere that provides CO² for plant photosynthesis and radition shielding, no water that can be used for human and plant consumption and for fuel, etc. A space habitat could never be self sustaining.

[@thenaturalmidsouth9536]

More like a few thousand to be genetically safe.

[@NealeMcconnell-cy2nr]

The money spent on trying to make colonization of other planets should be devoted to curing the immediate problems here on earth A backward suggestion you may say however many believe this outlook is correct , we have all the time in the world as space will always be there whereas humans have limited time to combat global warming and environment mitigation

[@stoneeh]

@@NealeMcconnell-cy2nr the biggest crime of humanity today, in total, is wiping out species via habitat destruction. It's mainly done in the Southern regions, mainly the tropical rainforests. Humans expand and need farmland, so they burn down thriving ecosystems and wipe out entire species. So, that is certainly our #1 priority, before moving to Mars. Just nobody in charge is even talking about it.. which makes it even more of a crime.

[@SocksWithSandals]

I disagree with the transhumanist project and any agitprop to make it acceptable; I've seen all the pictures from space probes and explored the real data in Space Engine, but that's only to visualise a human future where Humans overcome the technical challenges of setting up off-world colonies. If Earth falls into a Great Filter like trans humanism, global Orwellian technocracy or dark age theocracy, life and sentience will survive in space, colonise the galaxy and retake worlds lost to Great Filters.

[@ammara4547]

Yes! I am on the same page with you! The thought of Transhumanism to THAT degree scares the shit out of me! But you know what thats the Human in me. We need to do this though, I believe that this is the next Great Filter.

[@travalionhold]

You could make a video for why Humans as Cavemen will never learn to hunt animals. Then make a video saying humans will never ever learn how to grow crops. It took centuries for cavemen to learn to hunt. Centuries for humans to learn to cultivate crops. Little by little civilization is made and you can not do it unless you start trying.

[@JFrazer4303]

And some people think they can bang two stones together to make something more useful than a chunk of rock... IDK what mushrooms they ate, but you can't make "tools" out of stone or wood. That's just a silly story idea.

[@adolfodef]

This is why Venus Clouds are (by comparison) so great for COLONIZATION by _baseline humans._ But if you also include other options: . It would not be that difficult to adapt either through biology editing (the skin mostly) and technology (exosuits for temperature modulation and acid resistance) to the ~50km atmosphere cloud layer. . Since Oxygen is a lifting gas that can be obtained from the surrounding CO2 in venusian atmosphere, it would still be used for respiration & flotation. -> The remaining carbon can be made into a basic "sugar" by also extracting Hydrogen from the suspended sulfuric acid to synthesize it (alongside extra water), so "people" will only need to take _suplementary_ vitamins from time to time, with the regular recharging of their backpacks batteries as their main "food".

[@robertostman2075]

na that idea is just nonsense, the clouds in Venus are always moving to the poles where there are 2 supermasive vortex, (whirlpools) ,at each pole, that drag everything and all to the mortal abyss, where pressure is deadly, while Venus is truly a better candidate the clouds are not the path, the actual way would be to crystallize the atmosphere while at the same time allocate a shield that blocks the sun leaving Venus in total darkness for probably thousands of years, after the atmosphere has been dealth with we could reflect a small portion of solar light to it, (if needed)

[@Nosirrbro]

I think the problem with this assessment is it underestimates how resilient humans already are, and how hospitable certain parts of mars already are. Around the equator on mars can get almost up to room temperature, and because the air is so thin that might actually feel _warmer_ than room temperature. Water, and by extension oxygen, is readily available and has been found in many different places, and in theory some kind of suit that applies pressure not though being itself pressurized but by applying its own pressure onto the skin could make movement relatively easy on the open surface. The only thing we can't truly fix is bone density loss as exercise alone is never sufficient, however if you never plan on returning to earth loss of bone density is less of a problem anyhow. Even then, its very possible that some kind of medicine or treatment that induces higher bone density is more efficient than actual genetic modification. Plus, there are plenty of humans with very exaggerated genetic characteristics (such as the very large chest cavities of people living in high altitude regions, or the very large spleens of populations that historically got their food from underwater spearfishing) that are most definitely still homo sapiens. If any kind of genetic modification is necessary at all (which I still don't think it is), why would we necessarily need to go further than that to effectively colonize mars? I don't think its likely we'll be able to genetically modify any large creature to survive with zero technological assistance on mars how it already is, so some kind of terraforming or technological assistance will always be required, with which humans need no modifications to be able to operate effectively, and with the right technology could still become self-expanding, and I argue that advancements in martian engineering will come faster (and be more readily implemented) than genetic modification of the human germ line to the point of making us non-human.

[@markvoelker6620]

Due to the limitation of the speed of light, I don't see how you can be virtually telepresent on Mars. You could be virtually telepresent if you were located in a cave on Mars or on a space station in low Mars orbit, but not if you were located on or anywhere near Earth.

[@AKlover]

This guy's obvious politics/philosophy skew his views and objectivity.. I almost wish interviewers would just ask "what are your politics?" immediately from the start. If they state certain things up front it lets the audience make a estimate as to whether they are capable of objectivity.

[@ayylmao2190]

Be a man and just say it. You don't like this guy because he works for a left leaning news organization who has left leaning views concerning politics/philosophy. I find it hilarious that a guy named "AKlover" who watches paul joseph watson (right hand man to alex jones, conspiracy theory nut who believes in things like chem-trails and the Illuminati) can unironically say that "his views skew his objectivity". Conservatism/Trumpism is the textbook case of how ideology can fuel science denial, both conflict with each other on a myriad of issues (climate change, biology, sociology, I could go on).

[@raidermaxx2324]

@@ayylmao2190 hahahaha what a douche that guy is... i mean PJW, the king soy boy himself?? The alt-right is no longer given a free pass, and no longer welcome among us.

[@ayylmao2190]

@@AKlover >Occasionally albeit more rare out and out leftist are capable of making a rational case backed by data which can be verified as not politically tainted. So like evolution, climate change, immigration, gender, pro college, automation, video games causing violence, need I go on? >start with slander and insults right off the bat and then you probably wonder why discourse is completely dead. Discourse died the day conservatives started to call every left-leaning person like warren, yang, obama etc. a communist. Discourse died when the right started to adopt conspiracy theories and religion as mainstream politics. Discourse died the day the right elected trump as president, a guy who says so many anti-science/racist things that it would take forever to list them all. "the moon is a part of mars" "raking leaves will stop forest fires" "climate change is a chinese conspiracy" "most mexican immigrants are rapists and murderers, SOME of them are good people", "we should kill the FAMILIES of terrorists" to name a few.

[@kw19193]

Unless some, erm, astronomically ginormous problems can be overcome colonization of Mars will never happen. Cheers!

[@rueporter2253]

Really a great show George is very easy to follow, an love the trains of thought 💭 I think it’s my fav one so far, ty All 🙏🏻😇

[@TheHandOfFear]

It's utterly ridiculous to talk about "virtual colonization" of the solar system being a more viable option when it REQUIRES you to invent faster than light communication.

[@kladewilson598]

TheHandOfFear what if the operator is in orbit of mars?

[@TheHandOfFear]

@@kladewilson598 That solves almost none of the problems with just landing on the surface. Life support issues, radiation exposure, psychological issues, etc. are all largely the same or worse than on the surface.

[@IgorDz]

No no, he said we're almost there lol

[@mikeharrington5593]

Virtual colonization is pointless when the aim is to physically colonize & create a Planet B habitat for some to survive if Earth is victim of a dynamic extinction event.

[@TheHandOfFear]

@@IgorDz Yes, and that totally undermines his creditability. The kind of real-time virtual control he refers to is impossible without faster than light communication. Communicating with mars takes up to 24 minutes round trip without FTL communication. Considering the kind of control and feedback he talks about requires a lag that is measured in milliseconds, that's not going to happen without inventing FTL communication. Something we aren't even sure will ever be possible, let alone something we are close to.

[@ComputerGarageLLC]

respectfully disagree with many of your guest's statements. Not only will humans go there, but they will also set up and establish a colony regardless of the risk. Why? Its human nature! Man vs Nature, well, Man vs Mars. If they said they needed 500 people to go to Mars on a one way trip, And we dont want the healthest people -- I would sign up in a heart beat.

[@EventHorizonShow]

Well said.

[@sparkmanuk]

Big steps in progress require sacrifice, until the people with wealth by into the idea, and things can be done properly.

[@sephiroth3535]

Just the radiation alone makes being on the surface totally moot, sure we can colonize Mars, live underground! I just see that being not what people picture when they want to sign up...is living in subterranean tin can living and colonization on Mars that you would enjoy...or would it be even more suffering knowing what's up above, and totally deadly for you to interact with. Some food for thought , before you sign yourself to being a mole man, William

[@ComputerGarageLLC]

@@sephiroth3535 Being I would not pass the health test, I know I would be signing up for a one way trip to Mars to die. So, your point? But if my sacrifice made it possible for the next person to live long, survive more, and to continue, my sacrifice would not be in vein.

[@sephiroth3535]

My point? Did you picture having to live underground as a stipulation for colonization, never seeing the surface more than for very brief excursions?

[@n-steam]

*never*? That's a long time. The phrase "if it can happen, it will happen" applies here.

[@jwadaow]

Seems pretty straight forward. Go to Mars. Don't leave.

[@n-steam]

@@jwadaow but if everyone dies, it won't count.

[@seymoronion8371]

No one lives forever, therefore nothing counts?

[@n-steam]

@@seymoronion8371 Okay, put another way: If the colony fails and is wiped out, then Mars won't be colonised.

[@seymoronion8371]

Are you trying to say, "But if everyone dies, it wasn't worthwhile"? Or am I way off base?

[@gabiausten8774]

People don’t understand one thing: ,,Being on Mars is being IN SPACE!“. The Moon is close and easy to reach, not so Mars. We should first build on the Moon and learn. What does long term low gravity do to us, what do cosmic rays do to us, what unknown unknowns are there?

[@samr.england613]

That's what NASA intends to do, that is, use the moon as a learning and testing ground for eventual manned missions to Mars. Personally, I think manned missions to Mars are unnecessary, epecially to do science, as our robots and rovers are becoming ever more advanced. Besides, putting people on Mars will contaminate the planet with our microbiome, and that violates the Planetary Protection clause of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, which the US Senate ratified. Robots and rovers can be sterilized, humans cannot be.

[@nitacruise9993]

They brag about all these AI robots. But I guess they never thought about sending them to Mars and colonizing before humans get there. That would be a big help. After a long 9 months travel through space. They could already have shelters built for humans before they get there. To keep them protected from radiation.

[@CatsClaw44]

Exactly, all of these talks of AI robots and nanotechnology and then suddenly they don't exist or can't exist when talking about colonizing Mars.

[@davidmcfadden1763]

For a piece of land and an actual frontier, you would be amazed at how many volunteers would raise their hands. Obviously, a tiny percentage of mankind, however, but bear in mind people risk their lives every day for a lot less worthwhile endeavors. Great guest and terrific discussion!

[@b.g.5869]

You can't live on a planet with 1/3 the gravity of earth. Your body would break down after a while.

[@davidmcfadden1763]

@@b.g.5869 This is true of micro gravity or zero gravity, but we don't currently have a data set on 1/3 gravity and it's effects on the human body. Clearly the engineers will have to come up with a solution if it is a problem. It could be as simple as a weighted vest. We just don't have enough info to make the call at the moment.

[@b.g.5869]

@@davidmcfadden1763 A weighted vest definitely wouldn't be the solution. That would increase your weight on a scale but it wouldn't increase the amount of gravitational force your skeletomuscular and cardiovascular systems are subject to. You'd probably need to have something akin to O'Neil Cylinders on the surface (i.e. some means of replicating Earth gravitational conditions via centrifugal force), which is why most who study this seriously conclude Mars colonization would be a wasted effort and we'd be smarter to build O'Neil Cylinders to just send out into space.

[@davidmcfadden1763]

@@b.g.5869 Some great points there! Such an interesting subject!

[@solanumtinkr8280]

If you grow crops on Mars, then you have collonised Mars, even IF the colony later fails.

[@CarFreeSegnitz]

So what constitutes "growing crops on Mars"? We could send a seed in a soil ball in a glass enclosure on a Mars lander and coax the seed to sprout... crop? Or do we need to partially terraform Mars and send hardy plants to grow, say some lichen... crop?

[@solanumtinkr8280]

@@CarFreeSegnitz I think if they have a green house to grow food crops there, that would technically count.

[@topfuel29channel]

It wouldn't have to mean to grow a crop, but to have a foot hold, with some population, for a period of at least a decade. Re-supply is going to be key in going to Mars.

[@sterrre1]

Before Elon Musk founded SpaceX he actually tried to buy old Soviet missiles so that way he could launch his own greenhouse to Mars, take video of it and inspire humanity to go there. Then he realized how much beurocracy and politics were involved in spaceflight after the Russians raised their price 3 times on him and decided to go to Mars on his own by founding SpaceX.

[@WarriorsEnd]

@@sterrre1 "I'll build my own rocket! With blackjack and hookers!"

[@stevencoardvenice]

I guess you're going to have to have a debate between this guy and zubrin

[@EventHorizonShow]

That’d be interesting.

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@EventHorizonShow Make it happen! Lol

[@jeffvader811]

It wouldn't be a debate, it'd be a massacre!

[@EventHorizonShow]

@@off_Planet We try to follow these principles: blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/a-scientist-must-go-where-the-evidence-leads/

[@valdir7426]

I've red that there's a company that tried to mine the bottom of the ocean. they succeeded BUT it was not profitable and overall not worth it. All the talk about extraterrestrial mining is the same; if it was even possible it would cost much more ressources than you'd get out of it. Just to bring back ressources would be crazy.

[@ronaldsmith4153]

The International Space Station costs about $3 billion per year for NASA to operate, roughly a third of the human spaceflight budget, according to the agency's Office of the inspector general. As of May 2022, 258 individuals from 20 countries have visited the International Space Station. Feb 23, 2024. A Mars base would cost trillions.

[@solanumtinkr8280]

CRISPR cas9 is not all it is cracked up to be, there are other more promising variations.

[@DalCecilRuno]

Right on time! I'm working on a sci-fi short story in which one of the main characters lives on Mars. I know it's just fiction because as the title says, this might never happen, but hey, it's allowed in fiction. So this video is gonna be tons of help with my research. Did I mention I'm almost blind? These videos are way more accessible than having to go through lots of papers that I can barely read with a magnifier. Thank you Mr. Godier.

[@EventHorizonShow]

We're glad that you enjoy the show!

[@DalCecilRuno]

@@EventHorizonShow listening, and so far loving the show. My sci-fi projects deal with the consequences of genetic engineering and transhumanism. Your content is right up my alley. Your co-host is hitting so many great points. Awesome show!

[@ShionWinkler]

I find the Expanse, the books not the show, show this very well, where the Belter, who have lived multiple generations in the asteroid belt, are taller, thinner, and have low muscle mass, and they are unable to even going back to earth.

[@EventHorizonShow]

We love The Expanse. Show and the books.

[@turul9392]

Why is there music in your old videos? Extremely annoying!

[@quinn4091]

26:40 Whoa how can science fiction fail us tremendously in any way??? It is FICTION. Literature can't fail us or vindicate us nor it is supposed to... Its "job" is to inspire us. Please calm down with your dramatic terms and all that :p

[@reasonitician]

Anna is the real star of the show

[@A-N-N-A]

Oh, you.

[@The_Victorius_One]

Practical artificial gravity is required for the journey and the stay.

[@csehszlovakze]

We need a drive that can accelerate at 1G the whole time, Expanse style.

[@jonathangriffiths2499]

csehszlovakze if I remember correctly you would be travelling at a significant % of the SOL after a year

[@JamesISpalding]

@@jonathangriffiths2499 353 days to accelerate to speed of light at 1g. But then it would also take 353 days to come to a stop from the speed of light too. So plan your itinerary accordingly. :)

[@blogobre]

So acceleration and deceleration?

[@zlamanit]

We don't know what effect the Mars gravity will have on people. It may turn out that it's fine (or not). Currently we know that Earth's gravity is good for humans and that weightless is not. We don't have any data points in between.

[@SteveRCPilot]

We are living a simulation of a time in history when Human Technology creates AI.

[@adolfodef]

Add the word _"probably"_ and your sentence would be ok.

[@GooDogProductions]

I don't think we're even going to get there. I don't think we are strong enough to resist the physical and psychological toil of going there. And getting there is the easiest part.

[@LockSteady]

The lag-time will forever make virtual exploration impossible. Having to wait for return feedback makes the sensory component impossible to replicate, thus making the virtual part, utterly without merit. Even at the speed of gravity waves the return response would be many seconds late, instead of 20minutes late at EM wave transmission rates (as it is on Mars).

[@MtnTow]

Completely lost me at haptic feedback from mars. Seriously? I had higher expectations.

[@somewherenorthofstarbase7056]

George Dvorsky, join the ranks of Lord Kelvin who declared flight would be impossible, Einstein who stated that Nuclear bombs would be impossible, the Quantum physicists who thought transistors would be impossible. For a channel the embraces exciting scientific breakthroughs, it is really disappointing that you are giving this total closed-mindedness air. Sad.

[@AnonYmous-cf2ci]

Gizmodo? Yeah. It's not like they are totally discredited.

[@seymoronion8371]

Buncha nines though

[@mikeharrington5593]

What a relief that the background noise ceased at 20 mins, if only momentarily.

[@MarkReedman]

Going to mars and experiencing it virtually by robot would need a new form of instantaneous communications to avoid the lag to and from earth. It would require a new breakthrough in quantum communications ie spooky action at a distance in order to accomplish this. How long do you think will it take them to discover a way to do this?

[@21CCommunIT]

_Finally._ I was scanning the comments mostly seeking this comment... many of the complex considerations - the bioethics of genetic modification, for example - were well considered and discussed, IMHO. But the time lag aspect of virtual presence, as in discussing virtual fly-bys of Europa, went completely unconsidered. The further away, the greater the delay... and, thus, we would not have the near real-time interaction required for a true virtual presence experience.

[@adamselene9264]

Wouldn't the latency between Earth and Mars prevent you from controlling a waldo on Mars from Earth?

[@thomassgdf8270]

Yep. It's a shallow dive in the kiddies pool of sci-fi

[@drewmandan]

Sometimes it's hard to believe people could be so ignorant about basic physics, but they are. A lot of people just don't understand that radio waves take time to go between planets.

[@soverysleepy]

sry but the guy seems poorly educated

[@RonaldMcPaul]

The ancestor simulation in itself answers the Fermi paradox. "Let's see what happens if we may it look like no one else is out there, oh yeah well save some money on CPU power as well."

[@EventHorizonShow]

This is good.

[@andrasbiro3007]

Maybe, but there's a problem. If there obviously should be other advanced civilizations out there, but we can't find them, eventually we will start to suspect that there's something wrong with the universe and that could break the simulation. Also it doesn't mean the Fermi paradox proves that we are in a simulation. We still know way too little about the universe to be sure.

[@nostrum6410]

but then it wouldn't be a very accurate simulation and and you may as well go play assassins creed

[@makavelirizla]

super interesting and thought provoking podcast. love all your interviews and podcasts on here! keep up the good work!

[@davidtheiss7108]

After reading the title, am I the only one who thought that "Gizmodo's George Dvorsky" was some sort of terraforming/colonizing device?

[@DaveDangerous74]

I think space will belong to AI. The universe will colonise by Cylon style androids.

[@topfuel29channel]

I agree, but they're going to quantum A.I. Dildos. It's pretty much a perfect "Space Shape."

[@Bitchslapper316]

Hopefully they all look like Caprica 6

[@destrobatman5640]

if the government would just share thay would have a different conversation

[@MyChannel-vm6dw]

The content is always interesting however your intro music is too damn long seriously

[@PvE2PvP]

1st of all we will dig holes! 2ed transhumanism is still human... Less then a minute in and I cant stand your close mindedness you prolly think a black hole is a portal to another universe.

[@seymoronion8371]

So, what you're saying is that it's not the leftovers from the center of a chocolate doughnut?

[@michman2]

Aside from toxic soil, solar radiation, .36 G, 2.5 years in a tin can, stale food, 120* below zero temps, no hospitals, no fresh water.... it would be great there.

[@samr.england613]

Well said! I'll add: no liquid surface water, no trees or other plants, no grasshoppers or frogs or songbirds, no raccoons, etc., nothing but rocks and boulders, craters, some mountains, and utterly toxic Martian regolith. If my backyard was as toxic as Martian dirt, it would be classified as a Superfund site. No bs.