Why I DON'T Feed My Exotic Pets a RAW Diet

Trying something new. There is of course a whole lot more I should have said about this topic but I'm not very comfortable speaking. By the way I do feed various freeze-dried treats to my pets because they really love it and I can't get similar results with other products.
More resources that pertain to raw feeding:
pethelpful.com/dogs/Natural-A...
skewww.fda.gov/animal-veterinary...

[@TamanduaGirl]

If you feed an anteater dog or cat food they will die younger than they need to and painfully from spinal lesions. Most zoos feed them insectivorefare with other stuff added. This food however is also poorly suited to their dietary needs. Zoo tamandua still have an average lifespan of 9 years but they can easily live into their teens with a proper balanced diet. There is no easy premade way to do this. Pua made it to 12 and a half on a raw diet I designed for them based on their nutritional needs and nutrient make up of their wild consumed diet. Pua died due to her pancreas which was damaged and a life long issue due to an illness when she was younger. Aurora is now at an estimated 12.5 or more herself and still doing great(though fat from an endocrine system imbalance). I have found similar issue with fennecs. Fennecs eat a wild diet low in retinol and carbs. Cat and dog foods have way too much retinol for their needs. Too much retinol can cause spinal issue, liver and kidney issues among other things over time and that is what most fennecs die from at an average age, also of 9. But many feed more appropriate diets have lived into their teens, several I know of to 15. This doesn't mean all raw is okay for them either. Like domestic mice are crazy high in retinol so should be avoided. It's important to know what your species actually needs nutritionally for longevity and not just presume a similar domestic species food is good enough. You should never feed chicken food to your parrot, even though they are both birds. Similarly just because it's classed as a carnivore doesn't mean it should eat dog or cat food. Even feeding cat food to a dog is a bad thing for longevity.

[@genetsandjazz]

Well, this video is about raw vs. non-raw, and as far as I know there's no conclusive evidence about raw foods having the benefits that dog and cat owners claim and there is evidence of harm, even if the animal is okay it presents a risk for humans. As far as exotic nutrition, especially with animals like anteaters, there's been very little studies carried out on them and feeding them is guesswork. I'm not too worried about my sand cat, I think they're close enough to well-studied domestic cats in the same genus. It's more of a shot in the dark with my genet. He gets mostly cat food and will be 10 in March. How long our pets live is just anecdotal though, it doesn't really provide evidence the diet is working. We'll never know that much about most exotics and they'll all have nutritional issues to some degree. The only option is to work with a board-certified nutritionist, do wellness exams as they age and look at research when available. I can't make these determinations as a layperson what my pets need nutritionally...especially for longevity. Nature doesn't typically design animals for longevity, so looking at what they eat in the wild is also flawed.

[@TamanduaGirl]

@@genetsandjazz All diets are guess work, even suggested human diets(we are learning new info all the time) but it's guess work based on science. There is actually a good deal of research on anteater diets and nutrition, and how certain nutrients effect their bodies and actual recommendations for ranges for some nutrients, based on research from both in the wild and captivity. There's even a quarterly collection of research published for xenarthra. I actually found less research on fennecs diet. I presume because a canid of any variety is less exotic and enticing for research than anteaters but research still exists for them as well to a lesser extent. I'm willing to bet there's more research on Genet diets than you realize. I based my diet on this complied research. Numerous owners, rescues and even some large facilities have contacted me over the years for help. They all saw big improvements in health, appetite, fertility(in breeding animal's cases), and longevity when fed either my diet or one similar. This same anecdotal group of a fairly large sample of anteaters have also shown to be much less likely to have bleeding issues when fed K naturally via diet as mine is designed than when supplemented with K artificially. The point wasn't to tout my anteater diet though. It's that you can't assume just because one species healthy commercial diet is good for them that, that converts to that diet being good for all species. You said near the beginning of the video that since dog and cat kibble is good for them we can assume the same for other species. It's been proven beyond any reasonable scientific doubt that dog and cat kibble is very bad for anteaters because the over abundance of certain nutrients in them destroy theirs spine over time. We also know regular vitamin c in their diet can cause iron storage disease(not all dog kibble adds C but some do). Even with dogs and cats it's very unhealthy to feed them the wrong species kibble regularly. So if it's not healthy to feed dog kibble to a cat or cat kibble to a dog, it is far from safe to assume it is for more exotic species. To be fare it's also not safe to assume a raw diet designed for a dog or cat is the right one for an exotic either. I'm not trying to convince you to feed differently but felt I needed to provide a counter to the idea that if it's good for the dog it's good for your exotic because that isn't right and can be very detrimental in some species. The bottom line is that to feed a healthy diet research is required. Real research, digging through scientific papers and discussing with other keepers (to find out both what worked and what hasn't) and even zoos if they are open to it. Zoos were more willing to share info back when I first started looking into anteater diets than they are now but there are zoo keeper groups where info gets shared. The vast majority of zoos feed raw to their carnivores but with appropriate tweaks and supplementation for each species. But if an owner isn't willing or able to research and formulate the best diet they can and haven't found info from someone who has then sure maybe the lesser imbalance of a dog or cat kibble is better than getting it totally wrong and feeding only raw chicken wings or something. Of course each animal is an individual and my respond better to different things than others. Again my point is just to dissuade anyone who sees this from assuming dog and cat food is fine for whatever species they have without looking into what the species actually needs first.

[@genetsandjazz]

​@@TamanduaGirl Towards the beginning of the video, what I meant by "presumably the same benefits should exist" and "best way to feed your animal" I'm talking about non-raw diets (cooked+processed) and the benefits of that, i.e. avoiding harmful bacteria. Also I'm speaking very generally but if there is an evidence-based (WSAVA-like) kibble that exists for your species I'd go with that. The main point is that I see no evidence that my pets get benefit from keeping meat laden with bacteria when it doesn't have to be. Raw feeders say things, like I said in the video, that cooking and processing food is less healthy because it's unnatural. I do go on a slight tangent mentioning WSAVA later but that's in regards to dogs and cats, although if I'm going to be feeding cat food to a non-cat, I'm going with the food that at least has been tested to be biologically available to at least one species. As for feeding dog food to cats and vice versa, I would never do that because those species have very little in common. Dogs are omnivorous scavengers that eat, well, pretty much anything and cats are obligate carnivores that almost exclusively eat small animals. Genets, in general, have a wild diet closer to cats. It does surprise me to see nutrition research done on anteaters that nearly no one owns, while there's more genet and fennec owners. I use Google Scholar, and it comes right up, and there's almost nothing for genets. It's even hard to find diets for various species of genets, as they all eat different things. My genet is probably a Haussa genet, and there's nothing. The good news is that while anteaters are specialists, genets are more generalist and can 'probably' adapt to other diets with less frightening complications like you've listed for anteaters, at least for the first half of their life. Do you have training in nutrition? I'm all for looking through scientific papers but there are limitations. I'd be inclined not to tell people to do their own research without being very specific about what that means (that's the favorite phrase of people who promote pseudo-science, including the benefits of raw). For my information, one thing I'm wondering is that if conducting one's own nutritional research is accessible to laypeople why are zoos contacting you? Have you collaborated with a nutritionist?

[@johnomalley5712]

I'm not a nutritionist but I was a vet tech for years and I can tell you that wild animals getting kibble vs raw diet "It depends on the wild animal" if it's a wild cat or a wild dog/wolf. It's actually safer for the animals and for you. Diseases like gangrene, botulism and hefty food poison bacterias can get into the home environment and stay there. The bacterias that do not kill you are fertilizer for fungai and other deadly mold spores you otherwise wouldn't be exposed to. It also depends on the animals, some love raw meat, others hate it after being on cat food/dog food etc. As for other exotics I don't know much I can imagine that the opposite would be true regarding the raw diet simply because of the nature of these animals metabolism and original habitats.

[@ilkeracar6567]

What is the average weight of chacoan mara ? There are plenty of info about patagonian mara but I couldn't find anything about their smol cousins.

[@genetsandjazz]

There's some weights listed here, although I'm sure there's not a lot known at this point. animaldiversity.org/accounts/Dolichotis_salinicola/

[@ilkeracar6567]

@@genetsandjazz Thanks, how heavy are yours ?

[@genetsandjazz]

@@ilkeracar6567 Haven't weighed her in a while.

[@Cordyceps_Canine]

Ferrets are pets I definitely would feed raw (plus ferret kibble). It makes a huge difference smell, teeth and coat wise from what I've seen in real life. I wouldn't do it with dogs though. This whole percentage calculating makes me dizzy honestly. And I've heard too many stories of dogs getting ill because the diet wasn't balanced. So it's a no from me. 😅 In the end people should just see what works best for them and their pets.🤷‍♀️

[@mmmcloud2771]

There isn't a lot of evidence about the benefits of raw, but there is a lot of evidence about the dangers of kibble. Kibble actually gets recalled far more than raw food because of salmonella poisoning. Cats are obligate carnivores and therefore get less benefit from the grain and vegetable fillers that make up such a large part of pet food. Cats are more likely to suffer from diabetes and obesity when on a kibble diet and cats that eat dry don't get enough water since cats aren't really built to drink water very often since they get most of their moisture from their prey. It's even more concerning that you feed wild animals kibble instead of the food their bodies are made to digest. Your animals are not domesticated and it's extremely irresponsible to just hope that kibble is fine for them instead of feeding them their natural diet. I choose to feed my cat raw because it gives me control over what my animal eats, not because it "makes me feel good". I don't have to blindly trust whatever these huge pet food corporations say about how they make their food. One big reason why vets don't recommend raw diets is because most people don't know how to do it properly and it's easy to mess up. I've done my research though. My cat is happy and I'm happy knowing I'm not feeding my animal anything shady without my knowledge. If you don't want to put the effort into researching a raw diet for your wild animals, at least switch all of them to wet food. It actually has a proper moisture content and often has less carbohydrates. And for god's sake, stop spreading misinformation about raw food and the people that feed it.

[@genetsandjazz]

"but there is a lot of evidence about the dangers of kibble" WRONG. And there is plenty of evidence about the dangerous of raw. "Kibble actually gets recalled far more than raw food..." Wrong, wrong, wrong. "Cats are more likely to suffer from diabetes and obesity when on a kibble diet" Probably WRONG. Provide a source. If you really think you can just simply write something like that without verification, you are really confused. "One big reason why vets don't recommend raw diets is because most people don't know how to do it properly..." Yes, that is one reason, the other being there is no evidence of benefit and evidence of harm. Guaranteed that nearly all the people feeding imbalanced homemade diets think they've done their "research". You're not the first person to say that, more like the millionth. You cannot back up any of your claims with sources. I am prepared to do so if you actually care about facts.

[@mmmcloud2771]

Dangers of kibble from a vet news site (low moisture, risk of obesity) www.veterinarypracticenews.com/cats-and-food-september-2019/ This is from a site that advocates for raw food, but I’d HIGHLY encourage you to read it. It has several quotes from veterinarians and all sources listed at the bottom of the article feline-nutrition.org/health/species-inappropriate-the-dangers-of-dry-food This is from a raw diet advocate’s site, but the information is still accurate houseofpawsboutique.com/blogs/news/kibble-is-recalled-75-times-more-than-raw I suppose my statement is a bit misleading since more kibble is produced than raw food and therefore would have more recalls. More salmonella is found in raw food than kibble by the pound, but it’s very rare for us to get sick from properly prepared raw food (www.foodsafetynews.com/2019/09/survey-finds-infection-through-raw-pet-food-is-rare/) and bacteria like salmonella have a very hard time surviving in a cat’s stomach because of the strong acid that cats use to digest the whole bodies of prey. My point is that salmonella is a small risk whether you feed raw or kibble. When you feed raw food you typically have a general ratio for your ingredients. 70% muscle meat, 10% bone-in meat, 10% heart, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ (kidney, brain, spleen, etc.). Most common proteins are safe to feed as muscle meat including chicken, turkey, quail, rabbit, beef, and pork. Some beneficial supplementary foods to feed along with muscle meat to ensure your cat is getting all the required nutrients include green tripe (lining of the stomach in a ruminant animal), cooked blue lipped muscle, fish/fish oil, and beaten eggs. Bones are a bit more tricky. Cats are small predators and aren’t able to eat large and dense bones like the ones found in a cow or pig. Most chicken bones, fish bones, and some chicken bones are small enough for cats to chew. Bones should always be fed with meat attached and cooked bones should never be fed as they can splinter in the throat or stomach. Organs are extremely important in a cat’s diet, but heart is by far the most vital. Heart is a vital source of taurine, a substance that cats cannot produce on their own. Now all you have to do is calculate how much food to give your cat. The average cat is around 10 pounds and a cat will eat 2.5% of their body weight on average. That means the average cat will eat 4 oz of meat per day, 2 oz per meal. You also have to calculate the actual amount of meat and bone is present in the meaty bone that you’re feeding. I’ll use chicken necks as an example. One ounce of chicken neck has 0.75 oz of bone and 0.25 oz of meat. That means you actually need more than one oz of chicken neck to get one oz of bone content. Calculating the percentages in your meaty bone is very important to make sure you’re not giving your animal too much bone or too much meat. Too much bone can lead to constipation and too much meat can lead to loose stool. Still think I haven’t done my research?

[@mmmcloud2771]

@@genetsandjazz Now I'd like to ask where those many dangers of raw food are that are not present in kibble.

[@genetsandjazz]

​@@mmmcloud2771 Okay, so this time I want you to actually read the only valid source you have provided. I know you didn't read it. Why? I've read it before, and I've read it before because it is authored by a veterinarian/scientist who convinced me to stop feeding raw and listen to scientific research instead of blog writers, such as one of your links, written by someone with a degree in Fine Arts. They made an attempt to source their claims, but I fact checked one: "Cats evolved getting most of their fluid intake from the foods they ate. They don't drink a lot of water and don't have the thirst drive that dogs or humans have. As creatures that evolved in the desert, they naturally concentrate their urine. A cat getting only dry foods will drink water, but will have a hard time making up for the lack of moisture in the food, leading to even more concentrated urine. " I followed their source, and while I didn't read the entire thing, the source said: "These results suggest that differences in response to dehydration between dogs and cats, if they exist at all, are relatively small and probably not clinically relevant as a risk factor for lower urinary tract disease. It is also doubtful that cats reduce water intake in some unusual way when fed dry foods." Here's another interesting anecdote. I have a _sand cat_ , the only true desert cat in the world, and _she drinks water_ (she does receive wet food every day, she doesn't recognize dry kibble by itself as food anyway). I have desert species that never drink, and are never given water (springhaas, jerboa, kangaroo rat). When my sand cat runs out of water, she throws the bowl at the door seeming to ask for more. This surprised me, I thought the didn't drink at first. Your first source absolutely doesn't say anything about kibble having "dangers". Your 3rd source has zero references and raw companies have less _voluntary_ recalls because they have lower standards. _Voluntary_ recalls are a sign the company actually cares about their customers and won't allow even a remote chance that their product harms a pet. Take the company "Hare Today Gone Tomorrow". They recalled their product but then retracted it. www.dvm360.com/view/second-raw-pet-food-maker-refuses-to-recall-product Oh, and I used to be a regular customer of them (well before I became pro-kibble, 100% due to the author you linked's arguments). I purchased (disgusting) green tripe, heart meat, and liver. And ground mouse meat for my genet. So glad raw is not good for pets. I hated feeding it.

[@mmmcloud2771]

​ @Melissa S I did read the vet article, and I stand by my point. There have been studies that show that kibble causes chronic dehydration and higher risk of FIC and urolithiasis, there are studies that don't. Yes, there are other factors that may contribute to one or the other being the case, but the risk is still there. I would definitely consider that a danger. No offense, but your personal experience with your exotic pet means very little in this discussion. Since we’re talking about science and all that. No shade, I just want to address everything you said. I’m not really sure why you mentioned the thing about raw food companies having lower standards. The article you sent proved nothing and your claim seems unlikely to me. If you believe that 90% of kibble companies actually care about anything but money then I don’t know what to tell you. I’m sure a lot of raw food companies are like this too, but I don’t buy from them anyways. I used the third article in my reply even though I noticed it didn't have sources because it wasn’t a very important point and I thought it would be easy enough to fact check, but whatever. Here’s an article that makes the same point and has some evidence along with the article truthaboutpetfood.com/when-second-place-is/ It doesn’t provide an image or a link for every single figure in it, but it’s a bit unreasonable to expect that. It does have instructions on how to fact check the article though, so feel free. Asking for the second time for you to name some dangers of homemade raw food and why it’s “not good for pets” as you say. Specifying homemade because that’s what I advocate for and I know that a lot of raw food companies can be just as untrustworthy as kibble companies.