Why I Don't Like Helixes

[@Larry]

Could you have a steeper gradient if the trains only ever go downhill on it?

[@Iootman]

Did you somehow follow the same trail as me, where I went from mario 64 siivagunner video to "best train announcer" then to a darth vader sounding train, then for some reason clicked this? Because otherwise how did you even get here Larry

[@knobwobble]

I audibly chuckled at the sight of you commenting on the model train video I found through my recommended at 2 AM. You sneak your way into every comment section, Larry... And it's quite amusing.

[@TheBeansta]

Lootman same here

[@Ruiluth]

In my experience, the cars tend to bunch up and push on the engines and sometimes crumple into piles. Best keep downhills similar to uphills except in special circumstances.

[@cian.o]

Woah what are you doing here?

[@miniena7774]

Anyone else unsure of how they’ve landed here?

[@ieast007]

Nope, but I'm glad I did as it's an interesting video

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thank you for watching and commenting, Ian. I appreciate it. ...Roy

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

KZbin's algorithm put it there. ...Roy

[@miniena7774]

N-Scale Union Pacific Evanston Subdivision Wasn’t insulting you - glad I’ve landed here. Very intriguing!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I understand, Greg. I'm glad you landed here, too. Thanks for your comment and clarification. ...Roy

[@What_If_We_Tried]

Really appreciate your honest assessment of helixes, and making this video.

[@vicjames2743]

This is a serious hobby. Wow. This guy nails it and is passionate for sure to go to such lengths for his hobby. Great job sir.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Indeed, Vic. The hobby is both serious and fun. Thanks for your comment. ...Roy

[@Razzy1312]

I love the way model trains make this older gentleman's face light up. You can practically see his 12 year old self shining through.

[@travisjicorcoran5870]

I don't model railroad, nor will I ever - it's just not for me. That said, I love the craftsmanship of the hobby, and will occasionally watch a KZbin video, just to enjoy the great work that people do. An extra bonus is learning that this hobby, like so many others, has its own set of opinions and fights. The homebrew boat building community fights over bow thrusters, software people fight over indenting style and language choice...and railroaders have strong opinions on helixes. I love it!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I hear you, Travis. The hobby of model railroading definitely is not for everyone. Model railroaders obviously love it, and everyone else has little or no interest in it. I guess that's true of most hobbies. There are hundreds of thousands of model railroaders, and they tend to be passionate, even obsessive, about their chosen hobby. For model railroaders, the hobby is just plain fun. If you like, here's the link to a video I uploaded some time back called "Why Is Model Railroading the World's Greatest Hobby?": kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZDIno2mh7V2qNU. Thanks for watching and commenting. ...Roy

[@deadfreightwest5956]

Model railroading is sometimes called the "perfect" hobby. It combines every aspect of every other hobby: collection, history, painting, sculpting, strategy, electronics, organization, construction, etc.

[@SeanRPS]

one thing i would mention: there is many different standards such as oh and there is a lean to one type but different sizes wont work together

[@brenthopley874]

Hi from New Zealand. until moving cities last year, I was part of an active US HO modelling group operating ever two weeks across six (and occasionally a seventh) layouts six of which had helices. These layouts simply would not function without them so despite all the issues you have "correctly" identified, unless there is the space for gradients, the moral of the story is they are an essential necessity... I do enjoy your YT clips, thanks for taking the time to put them together.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Hi Brent! It's really good to hear from you. You are absolutely right: Helices are often a necessity, and that's why we have them. The trick, I guess, is to make sure they are built well and function without problems. It's a pleasure to share the hobby with you. ...Roy

[@ECH0FOXTROT]

Are these trains really small or are you really big?

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Actually, both.

[@davidhollenshead4892]

Yes, some of realize you actually have an O scale layout, which means you must be bwteen 20 and 24 feet tall, and your house must be huge....

[@squishybrain]

Fee fi fo fum, I've got some trains that must be run!

[@NoJusticeNoPeace]

I have never owned a model train. I have never had any interest in model trains. I have never watched a video about trains, models, or model trains. But somehow KZbin's magic algorithm decided your channel is just what I needed. So I just sat through a video about your passionate and burning hatred of helices. I can now add a checkmark to a mental list of "things what I done." Just thought you'd like to know.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I don't really understand KZbin's algorithm, how it works, or why it recommended my video to you. I do know that KZbin often recommends videos on topics that I'm not interested as well. I simply ignore KZbin's recommendation and move on to something that I am interested in. In any case, thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. ...Roy

[@boblesopp8692]

I have no idea why this was recommended, but i am glad it was.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I’m glad you liked the video. I try to upload a new one every Saturday morning. ...Roy

[@pansnemesis]

I'm not even mad the algorithm is wonky and this showed up in recommended.

[@aleksaynikolskiy3110]

This is so fucking booooring

[@larrydee8859]

Thanks so much for pointing out the issues, when utilizing a helex. (I've been strongly tempted to utilize a helex, but I think I'm going to live with two Separate levels, or use a regular long incline, with just one or two helex loops). Thank you so much for your feedback on this topic!

[@spongepuppet851]

It took me a moment to realize that this was about model trains (which Im rather clueless about) because I just came from about a dozen or so roller coaster videos and clicked on this because I couldnt imagine someone not liking the helix element on a coaster ;)

[@EAMR262]

Man, this was a weird recommendation, but I gotta say, I'm glad I stayed and watched it all, as it turned out to be quite the niche yet fascinating subject!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for watching. I'm glad you did. ...Roy

[@RadioForYahweh]

Enrique262 lol same here

[@bikerboy3k]

I didn't know this was a thing. Glad i stopped by, very interesting hobby.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I'm glad you stopped by, too, Travis. As they say, model railroading is the world's greatest hobby. ...Roy

[@riochcogan8913]

Thank you for your views on helixes. Back in the 80s I had a long, obscured tunnel section which had a small open section for track cleaning. I was a nightmare. Derailments and damage to consists was always a possibility. OUT IT WENT. Simplicity is best, don't stress.

[@onemercilessming1342]

"Uncouplings and derailments tend to occur on the hardest to reach places of the layout." Oh, how I WISH you had known my father back in the 1950s!!! Daddy bought OS model trains before the birth of his first two children, obviously expecting boys. He got daughters instead (and, for the third baby, he chose NOT to buy a model train to break the jinx, but got a daughter when she was born, too). Those two trains formed the basis of our Christmas tree display each year. Every single uncoupling/derailment occurred at the back corner behind the tree which was just about impossible to reach. I'm laughing now at the memory of his swearing and my mother--a bit more agile and less upset--coming into the lay-out covered living room to assist him in getting the derailed/uncoupled cars out of that corner and onto the long straightaway at the front of the display. Thanks for your vlog and for reviving a childhood memory. (By the way, I bough my son an HO model train for his childhood--but I waited until after he was born to buy it for him--no jinx).

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for sharing your memories. I really enjoyed reading about them. I know what you mean: Uncouplings and derailments always occur in the most inaccessible places on the layout. That seems to be a rule in model railroading. Sometimes I curse a lot, too. Of course, I always edit it out of the videos before uploading them. Ha! ...Roy

[@onemercilessming1342]

N-Scale UPES--Thank you for the kind words.

[@butlerjctsewirr5511]

I built two 1% grade connection tracks off the north end of the junction . Both are off the Butler subdivision main within the Butler junction limits to access the Rocky Run subdivision for either northbound or southbound moves to or from the 2nd level which work well and are nicely integrated into the layout . Just tried to keep it simple....

[@JuriRadov]

Why am I watching this video? I don't even own miniature trains

[@ibizenco]

Because miniature trains are cute.

[@syntaxerror8955]

Because it gave you a reason for making a KZbin miniature comment.

[@briangasser973]

I am always impressed with people who have the creativity and stamina to design and construct such a complicated layout. The best I could do was use a 4x8 sheet of plywood when I was a kid to design mine.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

A 4x8 sheet is a great place to start, Brian. Who knows where that will lead to? ...Roy

[@colemanadamson5943]

I like the helix because it does make the train disappear for a while. One knows not where it will emerge if one is a new viewer of the layout. Part of the fun is taken away on completely open layouts.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Coleman. A number of subscribers and viewers have said much the same thing that you said. One of the reasons they like helices is precisely because trains disappear from sight for while, adding to the mystery and excitement of model railroading. Once a train disappears from sight into a helix, it appears as though it's headed for towns off-layout and passing through them, and through time, before reaching its destination in the staging yard. Again, thanks for your comment. I appreciate it. ...Roy

[@donmartin9567]

When talking about Helixs, most people think of a "pure" Helix where there is a constant radius and grade. By changing the radius and gradient, you can do some interesting things. Think of a spiral and a mountain. By having a larger radius at the base of the mountain, you can have track that that, instead of going over the top of the base layer, tightens up a bit and is offset - this lessens the grade and lets you build a mountainside. Utilizing this and a "helix" that is more of an oval gives you a lot more options (although may not be prototypical for your area).

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Indeed, Don. In fact I mentioned variations of the spiral helix in a video I uploaded yesterday called "Your Comments about Helices." ...Roy

[@aliaslisabeth]

By the way, a train lift is a tough thing to build as the trains get longer. A 20-car HO (steam era) freight train is at least 10 feet long, and 20 cars is the approximate minimum to give that "mile-long freight train" impression we North American railroaders love. A 12 foot train-lift, with counterweights, is going to weigh a lot if you make it from aluminium! Incidentally, it is easy to put in physical gates attached to the bridge as it lifts and lowers so none of your trains take a fatal scale 600 foot plunge to the floor. I have never built either type, but apparently it is possible to just hinge one end, and rotate the bridge. However, that also requires well-planned vertical curve so the trains can negotiate the passage on and off the bridge. I recommend studying UK model techniques closely, because they model a prototype that historically ran relatively short trains, compared to North America, Europe, etc. That's why UK modelers can use fiddle yards, train lifts, all kinds of tricks to enjoy model railroading in their smaller homes. UK steam-era railroads also used a lot of tender locomotives so the steamers can be run in both directions without being turned. The Great Western Ry. even developed a fleet of steam-powered bi-directional passenger trains ("Autotrains")), where the "driver" could run the train from the front coach as the steam engine pushed the train from the "rear"; i.e., GWR did with steam power what we now call "push-pull" in today's diesel-powered trains. The steamer could also be run in the middle of the train with controls on both ends. So anyway, their prototype is model-genic, as the late John Armstrong (1920-2004) pointed out. * * * BTW, my theory about why a 10-15 foot freight train (8 car passenger train) looks "right" on a model railroad is that this is enough length for us to not be able to see the engine and last car at the same time. The experience of watching a train is seeing the engine, then watching all the cars go by, until the caboose, pusher engine, last car comes into view. Then we usually turn our heads and watch the tail end disappear. That 30 car "drag freight" looks great because we get to experience the joy of train-watching in model form. Another problem is that no matter how much space (and money) is available, model railroaders compress space to give the impression the train is going somewhere. It is one thing to see the locomotive pop out of Tunnel 4 while the caboose is crossing Bear Creek trestle. It is quite another when the head end power is threading the alpine splendor of Threadneedle Canyon while the caboose is still out in the Tabletop Desert. Having just said that, a 10 car O Scale train (or 4 car passenger train) looks too short on a model railroad, even though it is the length of a 20 car HO Scale train. I think it is because our brain counts up to 10 (or 4) too easily. I think that one of many reasons why pre-1960 modeling is popular is that a train of 20 boxcar red and black freight cars tends to lull the brain as it unconsciously counts cars, compared to a 15 car string of brightly-colored modern cars. Have you ever noticed how a model unit coal train or unit COFC/TOFC train seems longer than a train of unique cars, i.e., the local way-freight? Ironically, if you see a "full-scale" train on a club railroad--say 80 cars or more--it seems to go on forever and a day. Not only is that kind of boring to watch, but all kinds of real-world "train dynamics" issues appear like broken couplers, slack that runs in at the wrong time, or just the whole train tips itself over on a sharp curve. We want our trains to operate like the prototype, but that does not include trains that snap in two or pull themselves over while circling a minimum radius curve. No doubt the real railroads wish they could keep their trains 20-30 cars long and still be competitive. LOL Hope that helps you enjoy your model railroad.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comprehensive comment. I really appreciate it. I have seen commercially-available "elevators" for model railroads on the Internet, but I think I'll end up reducing the number of helices on my layout from two to one. We'll see. Thanks for suggesting a look-see at the techniques used by modelers in the UK. I have seen examples of very impressive layouts in the UK. The scenery work is especially convincing. I have seen layouts in the U.S. with trains that are 100 to 200 cars long, but of course, those are really big layouts. On my rather small layout, trains exceeding 25 cars just don't look right. ...Roy

[@aliaslisabeth]

"John Armstrong on Creative Layout Design" by John Armstrong (Kalambach Pub. 1978) , long out-of -print, but still available used, is where I learned about the idea of train lifts. He also has a section about British train modeling there. "Designing and Building Multi-Deck Model Railroads" by Tony Koester (Kalambach Pub. 2008) is probably a good reference for you before you do anything else. However, check Armstrong's book if Koester's book doesn't satisfy you. Good luck!

[@mikefisher2673]

Thank you for pointing out the issues with helixs as you set lift out mountain, maybe removable plexiglass windows to be able to reach in.

[@robrobason]

Just caught your channel for the first time this morning and I like it. I presume that you take the time to script your presentations because I don't observe the stammering, ums, and long pauses mid-sentence that drive me to distraction on other channels. So, if you do this unscripted, my hat's off to you for your natural talent. Anyway: I appreciate your work and am learning from you.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks, Rob. I really appreciate your very nice comment. Yes, my videos are scripted, at least to an extent. I don't want to waste people's time with a lot of stammering and painful pauses. It's a ton of fun to share the world's most amazing hobby with you. ...Roy

[@hkhjg1734]

when i was a kid my dad would take me to our towns model railroad club. I still remember all the great guys like yourself who made it all possible. thanks to all model railroad guys everywhere!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks so much for your comment. Model railroading teally is the world’s greatest hobby, whether we do it by ourselves or by interacting with others in a club. ...Roy

[@adamlepp3512]

I can't wait until I retire.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I know what your mean, Adam. Being retired is the best "job" I've ever had. ...Roy

[@syntaxerror8955]

So then don't wait until you retire!

[@blaine4754]

Why is this is my recommended

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

KZbin algorithm.

[@blaine4754]

Well, the video was actually interesting although I know nothing about this stuff. Thank you!

[@Morkvonork]

I suspect I was send here because I watch Keith Appleton but the algorythm should send me to machining videos :-)

[@KingMysion]

I was routed here by the algorithm too but I find your video strangely fascinating! I never knew about the strange world of model trains. Thanks for the video!

[@aaronmicalowe]

I got here because I watched a video about the Japanese bullet train. I'd got to that by watching a video about technology and that by a video about computers. This is what happens when you surf KZbin, you find out stuff you never knew about. It's always a joy to learn and if you have mental discipline you can always not click on the thumbnail or stop the video. Simplz

[@rbingraham]

It's up and working so frankly I would leave it alone. I also don't care for the helix model. But if I had to build one, I would hide it with some fabric curtain instead of a hard facia. That way when something goes wrong or to clean, you just put the curtain on a track off to one side and then you have access without crawling under or at least to some of it anyway.

[@MrCmon113]

You guys realize that the KZbin Recommendation Algorithm is more intelligent than you by several orders of magnitude? Just accept it's decisions and watch the video.

[@williamlazenby314]

I am pretty sure you do not understand what intelligence is or how artificial intelligence functions.

[@MsSupertost]

LET US ACCEPT OUR ROBOTIC OVERLORDS

[@craigcorson3036]

You mentioned the difficulty of cleaning the track in your helix. I suggest that you design and construct a special rail car for that purpose, and then patent and sell it and become rich and build yourself a BIGGER layout that needs no helix.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I use a CMX track cleaning car, Craig. I guess that will have to do. ...Roy

[@craigcorson3036]

Since I myself am not a model railroader, I was not aware that such a thing already existed. I guess you'll have to get rich some other way. Perhaps design an engine that continuously cleans the track.

[@davidhollenshead4892]

Roy, Years ago,when I was young, I made a HO scale track cleaning engine, which had a pad of scotch bright attached below the center of the engine. By adding weight, and using an engine which powered both trucks, this slowly would clean poor quality HO track without derailing, if given a few hours to clean the tack by doing dozens of passes...

[@Peter_S_]

KZbin just gave me your channel as a suggestion and I enjoyed your humor and your content. You have a nice layout. I used to run HO 35 years ago so I subscribed. Cheers!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thank you, Peter. I appreciate your comment. I don't really know how the KZbin algorithm works, but I do know that KZbin suggested this video to a lot of people. Thanks for watching. ...Roy

[@CVGdeltaflyer757]

I am actually building a helix due to the small amount of space I have and I actually WANT the train to be gone for some amount of time. I have a 3.5’ x 6’ layout and I am planning to add two helix’s to each side. This will allow me to run multiple trains on my small layout and have some disappear for some time allowing other to use the layout and still run and have many trains on the track at one time. Below the table where the helix connects I am going to add on a large yard to house different trains to dispatch and head up the helix to the layout.

[@quietside3734]

When the trains enter the helix, they are temporarily transported to a magical world, where trains are the most intelligent species. They go there to mate. Once their mating is complete, they return to your home at a speed that suits them.

[@calumbrubacher7352]

Absolute genius

[@quercus5398]

Remove fascia,install removable sliding doors,or flip up covering in wood or glass. You need access from outside for trouble shooting.

[@DylanTaylor]

I learned a lot about helixes from this. I honestly had no idea what they were before this vid

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Dylan, one of the nice things about model railroading is that there is always something new to learn. ...Roy

[@superbmediacontentcreator]

What a cool little video, this makes me miss the big HO system I had with my Father way, way, way back in the day.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks, my friend. I appreciate your comment. ...Roy

[@superbmediacontentcreator]

@@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569 You're very special Roy and we all appreciate your (well presented) take on things!

[@blind1337nedm]

you need to hire some kids to graffiti a couple of those rail cars . thats the one thing model railroads always seem to be missing

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I agree. Graffiti is very common on prototype railroads, and many modelers do put it on their rolling stock. I plan to add graffiti and weathering to my rolling stock. I haven't had a chance to do it yet, but it is on my To-Do List. ...Roy

[@deadfreightwest5956]

there are decals available.

[@deadfreightwest5956]

It may be why so many model RRs choose a time in the past when this sort of vandalism didn't exist.

[@seraphina985]

+Dead Frt West I doubt it was ever totally absent at any time in railway history after all humans have been satisfying their urge to leave markings in artefacts and on walls millennia before we figured out the whole farming thing let alone building railways. Of course back when the railway was pretty much the way to move people and goods would likely have been harder to get a long time without any onlookers to graffiti rolling stock and certainly the old fashioned tin of paint and a brush makes things considerably slower than modern spray paints which would make it even harder to create such large designs. Still I highly doubt that even with the added difficulty and the lower population of people to try, there was likely never a time with zero examples of graffiti occurring on railway property even way back in the 19th century it's just too much of a longstanding part of human nature to stick an "I was here message" on stuff. And there have always been people that suck at restraining their baser impulses especially after several fermented beverages.

[@pauljs75]

I think these days the attitude has changed a little though. As long as regulatory markings or particular company logos aren't obscured, or if there's nothing particularly obscene to the tag, then it's like "Hey! Free paint job." Companies get to spend a little less on corrosion control. Seems odd at first, but that's what I've heard about it. (They're actually more worried about liability due to trespass or possible theft or property damage in regards to cargo, than the tags on the rail cars.)

[@gfsrow]

Nice presentation! Thank you. Even though a helix might have the dilemmas you mentioned, yet it can also still be unavoidable for layouts with multiple operating levels and not enough room for gradual straight-line descents and ascents. I see no difficulty with leaving the helix open and visible: kids won't care that it might not be normal in real-life operations and adults will understand why it's being used on a layout. Plus helixes are indeed found in the real world - the Swiss have (at least) one that I'm aware of (although it's not a perfect circle), and who knows where else they might be found. So leave it open and maybe even dress it up with scenery, etc. (or not) - have fun with it! Either that or make sure the helix is accessible for cleaning, repairs, and derailments. You might even consider adding a third (and fourth?) operating level to your layout! Enjoy!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

George, thank you for your very nice comment and analysis of helicies. I want you to know how much I appreciate it. I also want you to know that it's a real pleasure to share the hobby with you. ...Roy

[@upsd402]

Great points. I am in the first stages of planning.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment. Planning a layout as you are now doing can take a lot of time, but it's also an exciting part of the hobby. You will be creating something that is uniquely yours. ...Roy

[@rwbimbie5854]

According to the southern transportation documentary Dukes Of Hazard, you just have the trains _jump_ to upper and lower decks... preferably while a horn toots Dixie

[@AndersonPrototypes]

Does that mean all the engines need a "01" painted on the side?

[@MikeDesertHunterHale]

What I loved is the portal at the top of Soldiers Summit, between Price and Spanish Fork, UT, I built a representation of that Portal using n-Gauge track etc. back in 1980, I gave it to my Son for Christmas. He didn't appreciate it and my work went by the wayside. I was a pretty fair modeler, but since he was never interested, it stopped. Keep it up.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Mike. Perhaps you will come back to the hobby someday. That would be great. ...Roy

[@1973Washu]

Make some cutouts in the helix fascia and cover them with curtains when you don't need to access the track. This way they are more accessible than they are when you have to crawl under the table, and they are still concealed when you don't need to see the unsightly helix (which should be most of the time). And the curtains can be as plain or as fancy as you want to blend in (or not blend in) with your scenery.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I agree: opening up the fascia would be the first logical step to take before doing anything totally drastic like ripping out the helix altogether. ...Roy

[@Rickster5176]

Excellent. All great points. My solution would be to have a hinged bridge that acts like a bascule bridge allowing access to the center of the layout without any "duck unders". Simple is good.

[@RonsTrainsNThings]

Great googley moogley. This video blew up! Congrats.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

It certainly did, Ron. What a big surprise it has been, and I'm very happy about that. ...Roy

[@artnc4139]

I liked the detail of the hopper car at the end of the tanker train. That shows a serious familiarity with railroad operations.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks, Fred. We normally refer to them as buffer cars. There's actually two of them. The one at the front of the train helps to protect the onboard crew in case the tank cars derail and explode. The one at the rear of the train is there in case the railroad decides to add a distributed power unit at the end of the train. ...Roy

[@TheCanterlonian]

i'd just pay the US military 5 trillion dollars to develop the stargate and then instantly teleport the train from the upper level to the lower level

[@WeightedFedora]

You can't connect two stargates on the same planet. It's like you don't even know wormhole physics.

[@TheCanterlonian]

oh shit i forgot about that!!!

[@jackass123455]

But you could get ancient style Atlantis teleporters

[@insylem]

Stargates are also one way. Also, the US didn't make them, the ancients did.

[@TheCanterlonian]

no, yeah, i actually know that, it was a joke.

[@mlkesimmons758]

Boy Roy! Sometimes railroads need to be built in the worst of places. I would open up the fascia. The spacers might be able to be replaced with ones with thinner profiles. On the viewed side I would install some hidden string lights behind very narrow fascia, flat scenery backdrops, and maybe some smile (scale mile) markers and station name or two.. Then just watch the trains roll. You would be able to clean at least half the track without going underneath. If you still really hate it enough build another one, then tear it out and start all over. Sometimes railroads need to be built in the worst of places. Mike

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your suggestions, Mike. I appreciate them. Opening the fascia certainly would make the trains visible. That alone would be a major improvement. And opening the fascia would also make at least half of the helix accessible in case of a derailment. As trains descend the helix, they go through a series of towns before reaching the staging tracks representing Cheyenne, Wyoming. Those towns could be labeled on the helix supports, just to make it more interesting. I haven't decided what I'll do yet, but I'm sure I will make some changes eventually. ...Roy

[@doubleutubefan5]

I like the bridge idea. Maybe even a draw bridge if it impedes foot traffic

[@bigpianoguy]

I have a ceiling train, 8 feet up the wall. Cameras and motion detectors were part of the design from day one as my guests get tired of only hearing the trains. Also, it's a different world up there & I want it to be shared.

[@davidhughes4448]

A well presented video and editorial. Further, your track, trains, and scenery look quite nice. I don't truly get your beef with helixes, however. 1) At the speed your trains are traveling I would imagine they would reach the staging level within 40 seconds. If that's too long for you we might conclude you're a little impatient! Helixes can make us feel as if we are train chasing if we use our imagination: out in the field we sometimes cannot access trackage and must push on to the next site where we can see our chase once again. In these instances sometimes we can hear the train (at distance) but still can't get close to it. Our model railroad helixes perform exactly the same duty. Sip your beverage of choice for 30 seconds. 2) Running trains often keeps track (yes, even helix trackage) quite clean. I haven't cleaned track in years. 3) If your track in your helix is bulletproof as you advise, you should be experiencing zero derailments. The only time I see the inside of any of my helixes is when I'm curious to study a spider or two. 4) Yes, cutting access windows in the fascia to view a helix can be an improvement, as you have done on your western helix. This is an opportunity to make a portion of one revolution a shadowbox scene of sorts: deepen the inside radius portion to make a deeper, fully scenicked scene. Ask me how I know! Use your imagination. 5) Throw out most "rules" about building a helix. I am an HO modeler. I have four helixes on my layout. Each utilizes 22" radius sectional track (easy laying within the confines of the helix superstructure - it's pre-curved, not unwieldy like flextrack), and my grade is 3.5%, thus 3.25" of elevation change per revolution. Therefore my footprint is a 4' circle. Most would tell you this is insanity. I will tell you trains operate flawlessly at any speed (even lightning fast, when required to stage trains) in either direction. Forget about how goofy your locos look on this radius, and that your long cars will overhang unrealistically - who's going to see it? The spiders, that's all. I'm not knocking your opinion, I'm merely offering a counter argument. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep railroading!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Good point, David. Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I have no real objection to helixes as long as they are trouble-free, but I start getting cranky when I have to duck under the layout to fix a derailment. ...Roy

[@davidhughes4448]

Well then we all need to tend to our helix track geometry so that we'll only be seeing spiders and no ducks.

[@recklessrailroad1798]

Thanks for all the great thoughts on Helix's! I am looking at building a room for my trains and would like to go from the table to above the doors for a boarder track. This video gave me some good things to think about!

[@SmartassX1]

I would put something like 2 hinged doors into the grey wall, so you can expose the trains for any visitors and keep them closed when you're alone and don't want to see the helix. And if you still like to build a bridge, why not that too? Just make it so that a train has the option to drive straight onto the bridge, or turn left into the helix tunnel. I really wouldn't want to waste the work that went into the helix. With the addition of a bridge, you can avoid using it (less maintenance needed?) and alternate between using it and using the bridge, in case of guests.

[@CornCountryRails]

Roy, I certainly agree with some of your comments and when I designed my layout I purposely put my helix in my staging area for the reason that I would be able to access it and not have to frame it in with fascia. I guess a helix is a modelers choice but overall I am happy with mine on my Corn Country Rails. -Tony

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Tony. It sounds like you made the right decision when you designed your layout. Easy access to all parts of a layout is so important. Well, I'm learning from my mistakes as I go, and it's never too late to make changes on a layout. ...Roy

[@colesrc1618]

I plan on having multiple custom helixes under my layout so I can have the train disappear for long periods of time. I don’t like the idea of having my train constantly being viewable on the layout and having it loop around every 60 seconds. I think making the trains disappear in the hidden helix is more prototypical since I have a small layout.

[@jerrysmith1929]

There was a helix in my first plan for the space I now have . Other potential problem areas were a bit of hidden track, narrow aisles, a short section of track passing through a scene twice, and locating a reversing section. I solved all of those possible issues by reducing the footprint of the layout. My solution came when I gave up the idea of cramming the space I have with the most layout possible. Luckily, I'm still able to achieve all of my goals with more simple plan. Now there will be no helix, no hidden track, no reversing section, but wider aisles. I think you have come up with the most reasonable solution for the space you have and for what you want to achieve with your layout. I'd leave the helix in place while reducing your irritation by employing suggestions made here by other subscribers. You haven't indicated derailment problems (an advantage of Kato Unitrack) and a track cleaning car(s) should further reduce the need to crawl under the helix.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Jerry. I think you've said it perfectly: many of the problems on our layouts are caused when we try to cram too much stuff, especially too much track, into our layouts and into the room space. We often sacrifice much-need aisle space when we do that. And we often run our trains back and forth through the same scene multiple times. It sounds like you've made some wise decisions that should help reduce or even eliminate problems you could have otherwise had. I guess we need to remember to keep it simple when we draw up our track plans. You're right about the advantages of Kato Unitrack. When a problem occurs in my helix, it usually seems to be caused by dirty track that can cause jerky or jumping movements in the trains or by the miss-match of Kato couplers on my diesels and Micro-Trains couplers on my freight cars. (I've got to replace those Kato couplers.) ...Roy

[@hntrains2]

This was actually funnier than I though it would be! As a helix builder, I can relate to some of those six reasons (mainly, nos. 4 and 5). Some of the other reasons (mainly, nos. 3 and 6) are actually the reasons why I like helices, whereas the remainder of the lot are no issues with me - not yet, anyway. A helix is a great challenge and it can occasion great moments of joy when it has been build and trains are finally running on it. P.S. But where are three of the trains going into the helix? Four went in, only one cam out!

[@newstart49]

Have a second identical train already in the helix toward the exit of the helix and run it when the first train finishes entering. Then stop the first train toward the exit, ready to go as the twin train enters the helix.

[@klbird]

The Helix is also a track eater. How many feet of flex track did you use on it?

[@Dumb-Comment]

2018 video done like 2000's love it!

[@gilliesiut2332]

Why is this in my recommended videos, and why am I watching it

[@gilliesiut2332]

Seriously I watched the whole thing keep the helix and open it up

[@anonlastbend7439]

Me too. Haven't touched a model train since I was kid. I would just make the covers on the helix removable so you can hide the tracks when running and open it up when you need access.

[@icenesiswayons9962]

I've been planning and have thought about this very thing. You were right about UN prototypical look of this arrangements. It looks too mechanical for a model which we know for aesthetically pleasing eyes. However I think that the amount of time that you've taken with your layout and the fact that the engineering is sound leads for a sort of mysterious time gap, like where did it go. It obviously works. It looks great and like I said has that mystique about it. Like my grandpa always chanted while I was trashing a working bicycle. " if it works don't mess with". I looks very good to me and I only hope that if I finally am able to start mine after 35 years of collecting all grades of train, track, models, scenics that it turns out as good as yours did! Good luck!

[@larynxaustrene3073]

One thing: Always have the track going up be on the outer side of the helix, there the gradient is smaller. Here in Switzerland even the real railroads do that. As they drive on the left side, most curves are going right. A almost helix in real life can be found here (46.4250745 8.9079617)

[@austins.3313]

Always loved this scale of model trains!

[@Nightowl_IT]

You can install a video camera inside the helix or even several to monitor the trains. If you use several, maybe cheap webcams and led strips?

[@AlohaMilton]

Roy, I have considered the issues you presented and come up with a solution for my multi level layout. I am using loops at the ends of long inclines against the back of different levels of my layout, this allows single loops at each end that can have landscape modeled. Though the ceiling is a bit low to the next loop for me, that all depends on the length of the yard level back wall and how much slope one can fit. So the basic idea is a 270 turn and running along the back of the layout in front or behind the scenery. These long gradients can have flat scenery behind the track and a short area of scenery in front, and one can see the trains progress. Reverses at each end, and with enough slope in between each end turn can be a modeled horseshoe layout area. Either a normal horseshoe or an over/under tehachapi style loop. The turns at the end drop the grade enough it can proceed under itself keeping it all flat along the back wall. So instead of a helix a narrow shelf layout inside the main layout. You can use the sections of a preexisting helix to build it, nice start since the curves are perfect you just need like 270 degrees of a turn. Most of the track is just straight all along the back of the yard, just 2-3 inches wide. If its 2% to drop 8 inches, it will be the same length of track and time you just will be able to play with it and model it instead of the helix issues of being so darn unrealistic and difficult. Some areas could be wider and more modeled, like 4-6 inches and a little station or something. That is what I plan on doing to have more stops for my passenger trains, since a single siding and platform and flat image of the station will fit nicely in a narrow space. In the process of building this style multi level layout, sawdust everywhere and tools and lumber spread about, and will have an update on it soon.

[@nathan1sixteen]

Probably controversial, but I actually like the look of helixes. Then again, I'm not necessarily a model railroader, more of a train enthusiast that likes model trains. I found plans for a small n-gauge track that has 2 prominant helixes incorporated to allow for more running room in a small space, and I absolutely love it!

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Nathan. Helices certainly have a place on our layouts, and that's why so many model railroaders use them. ...Roy

[@bunnymactavish2415]

I’m planning to build some small helixes into my small layout. I have very little space and I want to incorporate a helix inspired by the bernina express spiral element so I can add a viaduct bridge inspired by the Landwasser. This is very informative so Thankyou!

[@davidoickle1778]

I really like the Amtrak train. Very nice.

[@mr.rogers5628]

Seems like the same thing happens on my layout, I model in HO, and still use my childhood AHM diesels and some new Bachman and Athearn power also. Nick

[@gadgetdeez7069]

I'm not a train model enthusiast, but I love technical problems and making solutions for them.. First.. Derailments and simplicity. I'm not sure how your power distribution looks, but i'd assume you have multiple power supplies for different sections or runs of track? If this is the case, you can simply place an ammeter inline with the power supply for the helix. This will tell you several things.. It will tell you if the cars derailed (current drops to 0A), it can tell you if the trains crashed in the helix (current increases substantially as an engine tries motoring through the wreckage. And last.. It can possibly indicate a dirty track and even WHERE you have dirty track (Current draw is inconsistent and has a bunch of spikes from engines connecting and disconnecting from the track.) Furthermore.. Not a legitimate model car, but, it is possible that you can clean track by abrasive or chemical means using a car to do it for you within the helix. It doesn't have to be manual labor. ESPECIALLY because you have a motive force (The engine) and you have an electric track. For chemical cleaning, you can make a tank car an actual tank car where you put some cleaner in the tank which can feed a piece of felt, which is dragged along the track in front of the tank car and you can even add some drying/scrubbing pads to the rear of the car for a multiple pass cleaning. You also have an electrified track. this means you can fit a soda ash car with metal wheels and electric pads that you can connect to a drive motor. You can use this motor to drive a pair of buffing wheels that ride atop the tracks with minimal force, be sand paper, scotch brite, or even a pair of small buffing wheels. attach this car to the back of an engine and drag it through the helix. if it is setup properly, it would be a very low effort maintenance cleaning of the helix, or the rest of the track for that matter.. or, you just buy a track cleaning car for $40.. LOL

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for all of the information and suggestions you have provided. I really appreciate it. I’m afraid any kind of detection system is beyond my current abilities. That’s why I need to be able to actually see my trains running in the helix. As for track cleaning, I use a CMX track cleaning car with alcohol in it, pushed (or pulled) by a loco down the helix. ...Roy

[@aliaslisabeth]

The ammeter idea is easy if you are still using a DC power pack -- just get a throttle with a built-in meter, or find a dual-polarity ammeter and wire it in series between the throttle and the railroad. If you are using DCC, you should isolate the helix and connect the ammeter in series with the track power supply. If you want to see the train progress along the track--i.e., get a view that looks like a prototype dispatching center--set up a bunch of photo-detectors so they are blocked when a train is over them, and then fit indicating lights (LEDs, probably) on a board so you can tell if Extra 1313 needs a shove. Still the easiest system is to replace the fascia with transparent plastic, and use your Mark I eyeballs to see if the train is still moving.

[@mozismobile]

A couple of mirrors is probably an easier solution ... put a dome mirror under the roof and an angled mirror on a block on the floor. That way you can move it out of the way when you have to climb in there. The geeky solution would be a camera and screen - I suspect a video doorbell system would work and those tend to be cheap, all you need is a wide-angle camera and a small screen. Glance at the screen, if there's no movement you have a problem :)

[@aaronfutterer89]

I have never even considered watching a video on this topic because it has never occured to me to find it interesting. It is an enigma to me why it was in my recommended, although this im not sure why but i found this to be quite interesting and i found this to be a really good video

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for watching and commenting, Guns. The KZbin algorithm mystifies me, too. I have no idea why it would show up under your recommended videos. This has happened to a lot of people, and they're not very happy about it. They have told me so in no uncertain terms. I wish KZbin wouldn't do that. But I am glad you liked the video. ...Roy

[@justin_railfan]

I feel like the helix could be replaced with a long grade, which can add lots of scenery space along the tracks for hills, trees, backdrop buildings, etc.

[@morganhay859]

I’m planning a new layout I don’t wanna do a helix cause I think it’ll be a pain but I wanna do 3 levels of track and the room is only 13x13 so I’m gonna try

[@fredMplanenut]

Nice video, interesting and I understood the humour in suggesting that "the trains running the eastern helix take an incredible time". Thanks for showing your hobby.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Fred. I really appreciate it. Sharing the hobby is one of the best thingsabout model railroading. ...Roy

[@altermike3197]

Ugh, it's a little spooky that the trains just disappear like that, time slip stuff

[@BrickTsar]

You made me laugh with your humor on the disappearing trains. I was thinking of a spongebob meme. I would probably have to keep the helix. I’m wanting to do something similar with LEGO trains eventually. Would be nice to have the gradual incline and no helix but space can be an issue especially with a bigger scale

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for watching and commenting, Brick Tsar. I'm glad you enjoyed the video. ...Roy

[@billkraemer4710]

Put rare earth magnets on the fascia so it makes the track accessible. Never place track where it cannot be serviced.

[@stevedrake360]

You make a great point. Any suggestions on accessing track that is inside a tunnel?

[@pras12100]

I am just planning my first proper layout but I was considering check rails on any curves not "visible". I know that check rails would be a pain to retro-fit but a long piece of plastic carefully glued to the centre of the track would reduce the chances of derailment in the helix. It would have to allow the wheel flanges enough room on the curve though. I wonder whether z-gauge track running up the centre of n-gauge track might work as check rails. It would have the advantage that one could electrically connect the check rails to the running rails and possibly help any hesitant locomotive. It would need some experimentation. Just a couple of wild thoughts on what could help if you decide to keep the helix.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Patrick. I doubt that I could retro-fit anything into my helix, but I do have other options, such as opening up the fascia, making the mountain removable, and even eliminating the helix altogether. I'm not sure yet what I will end up doing. ...Roy

[@pieroluciano3272]

My advice... make access to the helix 100% all around by not having any permanently fixed fascia and instead use 'magnetically' mounted/removable panels where the fascia would be 👌

[@TheRoadTaken]

This is the though I had as well but with velcro though I do like the idea of magnets instead. Velcro would eventually catch the dust bunnies though.

[@jackm5341]

I've always been amazed with scale train sets like these but unfortunately never seem to have the time, space, or capital to get into it. This is the first video I've seen and I'm sure I'll subscribe

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks so much for watching and subscribing, Jack. I try to post a new video every Saturday morning. Model railroading really is the world’s greatest hobby. ...Roy

[@jawtheshark]

Why did youtube suggest this to me. Never mind, I'm hooked...

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

KZbin suggestions are a mystery to me, too, but I’m certainly glad you’re “hooked.” I try to upload a new video about model railroading every Saturday morning. ...Roy

[@srenchin]

The only way to avoid contrivances like helixes and duck unders is to build your layout in a space with enough square footage to accommodate the lengths of run with reasonable grades and curvature needed to get from one level to another. In other words, build your layout in a bigger room! I personally would recommend building a layout in a decommissioned Wal-Mart building if you can afford it. Sadly most of us can't afford to purchase a structure with all the space we may want for our layouts so helixes and duck unders are here to stay.

[@nathanielpillar8012]

Why I keep getting strange videos in my recommended.

[@syntaxerror8955]

You do that as a reminder to practice English, so that you will one day say "Why do I keep getting strange videos in my recommended?"

[@TheKurtsPlaceChannel]

Very interesting. Have a nice day now.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks, Kurt. You, too. ...Roy

[@CompanionProduction]

No idea how I got here...

[@Deebz270]

Oh and.... An interesting video btw. And I note, after my lenghty addressing of the helix issue and my solutions, that *Laurence Perkins* has pretty much the same idea. Which is nice to see. An elevator, or 'Engine Shed Lift' would solve a lot of grief, backache, head/knee injuries and clock watchingt....

[@juliusjames5577]

I’m just glad the trains finally made it. I was getting concerned.

[@SuperHawksworth]

I like the idea of an open fronted helix possibly with lighting and backscene to give a sense of space

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks, David. At the very least, I will have to open up the fascia. Of course, there are other options as well, such as making the mountain removable. ...Roy

[@papaben5427]

If trains disappear in the helix, maybe the tunel entrance is a portal to another dimension.

[@RealLimerickman]

Papaben Nah, they travel into the future.

[@yogabumm]

Papaben its the bernuea helix{ 🚂🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚂

[@yogabumm]

lol

[@cb-gz1vl]

I was thinking of using one of those motorized office tables that have various preset levels as an elevator from one layer to another. Just put a loop on it to hold a large train then raise and lower the whole section.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Sounds like a great idea! I'd love to try it. ...Roy

[@randysmitchell4810]

I hope in a former life you were a teacher? Your style - your delivery - I doubt there is a subject you could teach that I wouldn't get an 'A' in it.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thank you, Randy. That's very kind of you. ...Roy

[@dylaninthemovies]

You asked “What would you do if it was your layout?” I would consider making the side covering around the helix removable. That way the helix is hidden from view but the cover can be removed for easy access, at least to the front of the helix.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Michael. Nearly everyone who suggested that I keep the helix also suggested that I open up the fascia for access to the track and viewing the tracks. In truth, I haven't really decided yet what to do, but I'm sure it will be a while before I actually get around to doing anything about it. ...Roy

[@vizzydrink433]

Have you considered putting a FPV (first person view) camera system on your trains? You could watch from the inside of the trains and enjoy/monitor your trains.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

I do have a mini-cam, Vizzy, and I've run it around my layout on a flat car. But i've never been happy with the quality of videos it produces. Eventually, I will get a new, and hopefully better, one. ...Roy

[@billymcnutt116]

Hi Roy. I for one appreciate your video. I have started my own N scale collection years ago but have not been able to start any kind of layout. I like to listen to advise of model railroaders so that some day I may have at least a modest layout of my own. Thank you.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thank you for your very nice comment, Billy. I really appreciate it. I think a "modest" layout is a great place for any aspiring model railroader to start. Have you thought of doing a shelf-style layout or a modular-type layout to begin with? I think it's always a good idea to keep our layouts simple, no matter how much time we have in the hobby. I hope you will keep watching, because I have tons of ideas for more videos. ...Roy

[@CrazyBear65]

Why not utilize the helix as a visible part of the layout? Instead of having each level directly under the level above, step each one out so it rounds the mountain on the next ledge. It will still need to go thru a tunnel each level, but it only has to be long enough to clear the level above, then back out again on the next ledge. That's my suggestion. Space is always an issue. You need a large room, or you need to tunnel thru walls from room to room.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

A number of people have suggested that I replace the hidden helix with a visible spiral of some kind. I'm not sure yet what I will do, but I'd like to thank you for watching and offering a suggestion. ...Roy

[@jonathanmchugh1391]

I love your videos! I am a freelance HO scale modeler and my highest inventory of roadnames is CSX, behind that is UP, and third is Amtrak

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks so much for your comment, HappyWoffle. I really appreciate it. ...Roy

[@Euroflounder]

Wow. How did I find this? KZbin changed its algorithms I think. Wonderful. Since you asked, I'd probably go with the bridge.

[@gunther_hermann]

You and me both bud, wondering how I got here. lol

[@ChessiePAdiv]

I think I would add a door in the fascia along the front similar to the one you made on the side. I would also prefer not to have a helix on my railroad but it was a trade off for more space. I generally don't have any issues with mine so access has not been a problem and therefore was worth it for me. I wouldnt spend the time to redo it unless derailments are more than just a rare occurrence. Work on completing something else instead. Thanks Roy I always enjoy your videos Scott

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thanks for your comment, Scott. I appreciate it. Doors on the fascia would definitely improve access to the helix, and that continues to be an option. But with so many priorities on my layout, I'm sure it will be quite a while before I get around to doing anything about the helix. ...Roy

[@ChessiePAdiv]

I understand entirely, there are several things on my railroad that are perhaps not how I want them but probably won't rework them until I finish some other items. Thanks

[@MrAlex-ej8ov]

Informative

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Thank you. ...Roy

[@timcollier730]

I am fixing to build a n scale layout that operates almost like the Paducah & Louisville line in Kentucky. I have about 60ft of wall to build on, I was thinking about a helix to make a loop, so I dont have to run from one yard to the other yard back and forth. I am really stuck on what to do.

[@n-scaleunionpacificevansto6569]

Tim, when I was planning my layout in early 2014, I struggled long and hard with whether or not to include a helix in my track plan. I didn't really want a helix, but I also didn't want a duck-under. It didn't occur to me at the time that some sot of drop-down, lift-up, or lift-out bridge might work, along with an around-the-room type layout. At some point, I probably will rip out the hidden helix, so I encourage you to consider alternatives other than a helix if at all possible. ...Roy

[@timcollier730]

Thanks