Why I Hate The Demon List

[@AnfisaAlyssa]

The problem with ranking every single level is because there are over 110 million levels (it can only rank rated levels to prevent recent tab levels from appearing because a lot of levels are being uploaded to the servers in a day but still there are 4602 pages of rated levels)

[@themonodoesyoungerbrotherc7105]

the fact that i can get 1k views from uploading a short clip of someone hacking and this video cant even reach 50 views is crazy

[@NothingIsScary]

Im sure it will hit the algorithm eventually. And even if it doesnt thats alright. I make these out of passion

[@Flightkitten]

@@NothingIsScary Your videos, due to the sheer quality and length, deserve to be catapulted at the algorithm at Mach 7. Amazing videos!

[@HappyManOfficial]

@@NothingIsScary you are one of the most gd youtubers but it's sad how most of your videos don't even hit 1k views

[@carrit8501]

@@NothingIsScary yeah its touch like my channel has several very low effort videos with 20k+, you deserve more bro, keep it up

[@saobaomenace]

hes known now lets go

[@Periwinkleaccount]

It would be generally better if the demons list functioned more like the GDDP, where levels are sorted with difficulty tiers rather than trying to objectively and numerically place them. The GDDP also marks what makes the level hard, which would be very useful for the demons list by having filters for only seeing levels with certain things, like only seeing levels that are made hard by having difficult UFO gameplay, for example.

[@coolcodin]

I know i'm really late to this, but i totally agree with this. The demon list is meant to rank levels based on difficulty, not really to be a sort of competition. I recently beat Digital Descent, which i started for list points, and it really took a toll on my mental health, because i felt like if i didnt beat Digital soon, i would never get them. Luckily i beat it in time, but i know i could have enjoyed it a lot more if those stupid list points didnt exist

[@NothingIsScary]

Yeah. Thats what i mean. Like imagine if you were still grinding it now. Like. Its one level (probably limbo) away from falling off the list

[@coolcodin]

@@NothingIsScary even worse its already off the list. That salso something i hate about list points, you get them and if you don beat a list demon immediatly after, youre gonna lose them in a week most of the time

[@XD1999cable]

Men, I did not beat bloodbath and no one are pressure me to beat it so I taking my time, now passed 6 years XD, but now I have others priorities Btw if you wonder why I taking so long is because I trying it on 60 hz, if I play at 144 fps is so easy for me, I reached 70% in few attemps.

[@Mewtwo557]

I think you bring up a lot of valid points. I was hesitant on the idea of ranking EVERY extreme AND insane demon, but then you brought up the demon ladder which I might use for future purposes. The idea of list points and ranking the hardest levels that way has definitely become a bit outdated since Technical got overtaken on the stats viewer as the best player. I appreciate the fact that you brought up the idea of just beating these levels within those difficulty thresholds for the sake of improvement instead of beating "insert top number" for an arbitrary score, and using Bloodbath as the token example is icing on the cake as someone who has beaten Bloodbath and dislikes that they don't accept records for legacy demons. Though with that in mind, I'm curious to your thoughts on the GDDP.

[@NothingIsScary]

GDDP is a mixed bag for me. Short answer. I like it right now. Long answer. Its too new for me to know if i like it. On one hand it HAS helped me improve. On the other hand. levels get removed and added constantly. I had Bronze+ and then Red Haze got swapped with Scarlet Smog. They are very similar levels but Scarlet Smog has worse GP. This has made me not wanna get the tier back.

[@petrikhorr]

@@NothingIsScary i feel like a solution to that could be to make legacy levels count at substitutes for main ones. therefore, you don't have to beat the new level that just got swapped in every time one level changes to get your rank back.

[@petrikhorr]

update: gddp is dead, demon ladder will reign supreme

[@DarkMatterX101]

@@petrikhorr What's demon ladder?

[@purpleanchor]

Thank you so much for making this video. It's so inspiring and it's saving the community. Now I am more inspired than ever to reach my end goals.

[@unprepared6408]

I completely agree, and I'm also having a hard time processing Zodiac being at 49 now. Like can we stop shitting out unthemed joke levels or non rate worthy old impossibles please?

[@frist5287]

I found a hidden gem of a channel, that iceberg chart was phenomenal

[@TheCoolIllusion]

You’re super underrated, great video!

[@another_player8]

literally thanks to this guy i found iS and beat it in 27 attempts

[@comedyyyyyyyyyyyy]

i honestly agree with that, some of the best looking levels are gatekept by being extreme (nhelv, the apocalyptic trilogy, edge of destiny, etc.)

[@Flobthemob1]

The demons list was made for the levels, now levels are made for the demons list

[@kipTheInsomniac]

The thing that differentiates the Demon List from the Osu difficulty rating is that (I'm fairly certain) Osu determines a level's difficulty with an algorithm. It's why you see unrated songs like acid rain with stupidly high numbers. The demon list team has to manually review each level, and I'm sure they already put a lot of time into that, adding hundreds of more levels would be impossible to manage the way they do it now. There are some solutions I can think of off the top of my head: 1. Do as you said in the video and rank the levels instead by difficulty tiers like the gddp. The celeste community also kind of does this, but they do actually rank the top few levels. This would still be a lot of work (probably more than they already do considering the amount of even just extremes that release), because people would probably still complain to the list team about stuff lower on the list. 2. Just stop editing the difficulty of anything past the extended list (150), and have it keep its previous place. Not everything would be accurate by modern standards, but it would require no extra work, and still give players a starting point.

[@gameralexgeometrydash2654]

4:58 you and wulzy were both born on the excact same day

[@RainbowGuyOfficial]

truer words have never been spoken, king

[@Nylspider]

Hey i agree, an “all rated extreme and insane list” that doesn’t try to give arbitrary points and instead just exists to help players improve would be more useful to more people and would probably improve this community’s levels of toxicity. Seems like a great idea :3

[@jasmineelhilali9152]

Also the truth is that, honestly, if you're not comparing Bloodbath to Acheron, most of the top demons have little difference regarding difficulty. Imo if you are able to beat Acheron, Firework or Oblivion, you are still beating a #1 demon

[@CnekYT]

for the most part I agree but I'd like to correct a point the legacy list wasn't added in 2019 but in fact 2016, the list kept on extending the list, once in late 2017 (50 -> 100) and again in mid 2019 (100 -> 150), with Wolfstep falling off sometime in late 2017. The reason it shows it as 150 on the time machine is that it displays the time machine as 150 regardless of the amount of list levels for that date that were on the list. I'd say that's still a fairly good argument though as on the legacy list Wolfstep is like top 500 lol, meaning there is like x3 the amount of legacy list levels as the amount of list levels now, which is insane to think about as before 2019 it was usually no more than 60.

[@CnekYT]

like until 2019 the legacy list was AT MOST 30 levels at a time, usually even lower. Like I remember when there was only like 6 legacy list levels. Back then you could still use the legacy list as a guide. But due to how large the legacy list is now, anything below let's say even more recent levels like Hatred, is so far gone that it's missing a pretty large portion of levels and even in a lot of cases is hilariously inaccurate (Doop, Prismatic Haze, Falling Up, Galaxy Breaker, Spectral Tentation being hilariously underrated ---- Violently X, Fabricated Thoughts, Carcano, Grill Kill, aftermath being hilariously overrated)

[@scy7172]

This is the greatest GDDL advertisement known to man (Also use the spreadsheet or bot not the website rn cause website kinda screwed for now)

[@rasp_]

Why’s the website screwed?

[@xykleogd7180]

Never knew why they stopped at 150, there isnt really a reason. Rated levels as well. Some levels like stellar night and Natural disaster arent rated but are hard enough to be there. There is no reason not to include unrated extremes that have rate worthy deco.

[@Cam16751]

This is really late, but I wanted to comment from the perspective of a Demon List mod. I think in this video you are missing the entire point of what the Demon List is trying to accomplish, which is to rank the hardest levels in the game, and only that. Yeah it used to have insane demons, but keep in mind that was because the Demon list was created when there simply weren't many rated extreme demons at the time and as more Extreme Demons were rated all the insane demons were eventually pushed off. The Demon list is a site used to rank the top 150 hardest levels, not a tool to rank every insane and extreme in the game. You can use other tools like the GDDP and Demon latter to accomplish that. The Demon list is meant to be hard, not a list that ranks every possible level. And although it would be nice to constantly increase the number of levels on the demon list as levels are rated, I believe you fail to see the problems with doing that. As a team of 21 people currently at the time of writing this, we already get a lot of list records submitted to the list every single day. Sometimes we struggle keeping up with them because a lot of us have lives outside of the game and we are doing this work as volunteers. And that isn't even including the additional levels would have to be placed, placement adjustments, and player profile requests. Indefinitely increasing the number of levels on the Demon List would just stretch us thin. (That isn't to say I'm against a list extension in the future though). Obviously the solution to this would be to just hire more people, but there is another problem with this. It is hard to find trustworthy people to hire. We have to keep hack detection methods confidential in ordered to stay ahead of advanced hacking methods. Increasing the size of the team dramatically would increase the likelihood that our methods would be leaked. There is a lot more I disagree with in this video (As well I think is misinformed) but if I addressed all of it I would hit the character limit in this comment. I think it all mostly boils down to that the Demon list wasn't designed for the things you are complaining about in this video. It is meant to serve one specific purpose and nothing else (Ranking the top 150 levels). And the beautiful thing is that if you don't like it, you don't have to use it! I don't see what your complaining about in the video as a problem when you can use the other sites that I mentioned above to fulfill your needs. Also I don't understand why you feel you need to paint us in a bad light in this video. Nobody on the team has anything against anyone, we just have a passion for the game which is why we are doing volunteer work. It just makes you look like you are talking from your own personal bias rather than objectivity. By the way if you have any questions about the Demon list feel free to ask me. I see a lot of people in your comment sections jumping to conclusions about the Demon list when they don't have the full picture. I am open to any questions.

[@NothingIsScary]

What about getting rid of list points. Its a list. Even speedrun.com doesnt have a point system.

[@Cam16751]

@@NothingIsScary I don't see a problem with list points. The purpose of them is to reward people for beating the hardest levels and allow them to be competitive on a leaderboard. Some people like to participate in a competitive leaderboard, which is perfectly fine! I personally wouldn't want to beat levels solely for list points since I care more about the level I'm playing, but if someone is beating something just for list points I don't see a problem with that since they are playing the game how they want to play it, and its not up to me to decide how they play the game. Its just a matter of personal preference. And although it isn't a completely accurate measure of skill, the stats viewer is the most accurate way to see who the top players are. Yes you can argue that it isn't necessary to have list points on the site, but does it need be necessary? Some things are not necessary but are just nice to have. For a lot of people its just something that motivates them to beat the hardest levels in the game. And if you cant handle participating on a competitive leaderboard then just don't participate, nobody is forcing you to get list points and I don't see how list points harms anyone. Also speedrun.com is completely different from GD. In GD you complete levels, you don't speedrun them. And the list point equivalent on speedrun.com is just having a faster time than other people.

[@NothingIsScary]

they are both systems for submitting records

[@morshumcpherson1605]

What is your opinions on the all rated extreme demons list?

[@renzgmd]

you can check legacy levels placements in website's url tho

[@mayberiv]

Now, i will say that the gddp is just a better form of the demon list, it's like a mix of the lader and the demon list.

[@markvd1008]

5:40 Which was not too long after I first got into the game. 17:33 I logically find Stalemate a very high-tier Hard Demon instead since the experience was just as hard as Theory of Firepower, easier than Iridescent (Hardest Hard Demon for me so far) and Windy Landscape. But harder than like TOE II V2. 18:40 Yep. That's actually my current hardest (That also finally beat my highest attempt of 7K count by hundreds after Deadlocked back in 2019) and I find it harder than Windy Landscape even if the dual-to-ship transition can be buggy chokeable. The 30% wave is where it really shows because I got consistent at it after it hurt my hand a few times from all that precision struggle, which showed actual physical improvement in my skill. I can tell if the level is physically hard, my brain being silly, or a part is just annoying to play like intro of Theory of Firepower. Even sometimes taking into consideration how long it takes me to beat with my current skillset even when taking breaks on occasion. (Who knows how hard will TOE IV compare to Supersonic when I try to go for it later this month.)

[@mark_the_g]

Very underrated channel honestly

[@Flightkitten]

This video is really true. With the recent release of Poocubed pushing another level off, and losing a lot of people list points, what's even the real motivation to use the demonlist anymore?

[@waveiscursed]

"being good at the game isnt all its cracked up to be" - spaceuk

[@bikemerchant3280]

what a smart sounding fella this talented spaceuk guy is :Kappa:

[@Periwinkleaccount]

- Guy whose hardest is Kenos

[@waveiscursed]

i found a old comment

[@InverseOfficial]

Glad I found this video and I agree. I think the demon list is inaccurate in general and should either rank all extreme demons or none at all. I would argue bloodbath to bloodlust is a bigger difference than stereo madness to bloodbath, so only listing some of the extremes makes little sense because it's such a broad spectrum.

[@gliiitched]

There were very few times in this game where someone can say a level is definitively top 1, and those days are long gone. Cataclysm and Bloodbath are eight years old. Sonic Wave was verified almost seven years ago. Those levels were just on a whole new level of extreme when they were released.

[@starcluster2593]

i expected this to have like 100k views

[@Chimpss]

I do agree but I think the demon list wasn’t supposed to be used to know what next level you will beat I think it’s literally just a list to show what’s the hardest level but I do agree on the list points it’s kinda dumb

[@MetriRico]

7:45 you can still do that just use the time machine....like youve been doing

[@lslikk419]

i am also trying to complete freedom dive (at 25%) because the gameplay is really fun and the decoration is awesome!

[@alchemist6306]

Yep, I knew something felt off as soon as I saw that the list mods kept on moving the top 10 demons around. The arbitrary changes goes to show how subjective the list demon difficulties are. One player might be good at wave but suck at memory and vice versa, so I do agree that the tier system would be way better. Seeing the demons list evolve over time seems to trivialize a player's completion of extremes such as Bloodbath and CC. Bloodbath has been my hardest since Oct 2016 (I don't grind the game anymore) and it feels a little demeaning when it's not on the main list anymore cuz some people might think it's not really an achievement. But as long as you appreciate your own achievements, that's enough. However, I think the demons list was always meant to appeal to the top players only. That's why the demons list is the way it is right now. Still kinda dumb to see the ranking system since the placements are pretty arbitrary with the constant switcheroos.

[@HyperComet369]

No fucking way delta interface was still on the list when acheron was placed. This shit just makes me even more mad that the shitass save system in this game just didn’t allow me to save and load my progress to play on pc. I definitely would have beaten an extreme by 2020.

[@NothingIsScary]

Just remember that delta interface falling off the list does NOT make beating delta interface any less impressive!

[@markvd1008]

17:22 Well then, now it has been lowered to 15.

[@rockywebb7]

Yeah i fully agree

[@Periwinkleaccount]

Another thing that bothers me about it is the name. A long time ago when I played on mobile, for a short amount of time, I thought that pointercrate was a website for hosting lists and rankings, just because of how unrelated the name is to what it’s actually for. Apparently, the reason that it’s named that is because the creator of it wanted to have things other than the demon list on it, which makes no sense, because, in the many years that it has existed for, it has had nothing other than the demon list on it. I think that pointercrate should just be remade into what I thought that it was, and have the demon list be only one of the lists hosted on it.

[@alchemist6306]

That's a really good point. I legit thought the same exact thing that Pointercrate was a site for multiple lists but it's literally just the demon list which is dumb.

[@BestShortsEver316]

I have something to say: Originally, the list was made for levels. Now, levels are made for the list. I'm making a level that, whenever I become really good at the game, I will try to beat. It is probably around like top 60 or 50 so far, but I will not expect it to be on the demon list, even though I want it to get featured. If it does get on the demonlist, I will contact the people behind the demonlist saying I don't want my level on the list. I also hate the fact that you are one of the few people who notice this problem. I hope word spreads around this video and pointercrate is reworked, but it might be too late for that so they might have to delete the list entirely. And the fact that right now, there are so many top 1s being verified like Flamewall really strengthens my point of levels now being made for the list instead of the list being made for levels. I will make a video saying why I don't like the demonlist and it will have everything you're saying and I'll have the link to this video in the description so people know who to thank. I just want the demonlist to die because every "UPCOMING TOP 1" video just has a very Slaughterhouse like beginning and have a 4x speed wave and 5 second straight fly with basically every click in the level being a frame perfect with phonk music in the background. Not even Tidal Wave is good, like you said.

[@purpleanchor]

How is this still so underrated

[@SuperstarStudioGD]

*Honestly, the demon list should not exist*

[@Bliger29]

Ok so what you said about extending the list is correct, but that would be impossible. 472# POSITION should be taken into account (at the moment I write the comment here) and it would be TOO much work for so few people. The solution would be to put the levels in order of exit from the list, without however adding or changing the position of the levels.

[@Ghold]

My current hardest is shiver by spkale (easy demon) and i still agree with you

[@SkewerKing]

Who the hell at the Demon Ladder thinks that Forsaken Neon and Deadly Clubstep are the same tier of difficulty?

[@NothingIsScary]

They are

[@SwitchingAccount.]

The fact i get 2k veiws from a random mr incredible becoming uncanny video And you cant get 600 just from this masterpiece

[@Insantgd]

I beat Hemi after as my second medium demon (after B) and was so confused as to why is was so difficult. Be wise looking at the ratings they are both medium demon so it shouldn’t have been that hard. B took me 3 days and Hemi took me 2 weeks for comparison. But if you were to go onto the gd ladder website they are separated by a few ranks. This is really what people should use and I had not heard of this website before this video. Thanks for showing me this website! Also I’m still trying to beat your top ten and Astronaut 13 is impossible to learn.

[@LookAtThisHumongousStick]

Personally I disagree strongly with the claim that the number should repeatedly and arbitrarily be increased. I think that the idea of numerically ranking levels by their difficulty and straight up saying one level is harder than another should be entirely eradicated. The stats viewer should be ranked by the most demonlist levels completed. The idea of "oh this is harder than this" is dumb and toxic, plus with this change there is almost no "falling off the list" cuz every extreme should be on the list, I do agree that the amount of levels should be extended but only to the amount of every extreme in the game without the use specific placements. Peoples conflicting opinions won't change anything and won't cause any ridiculous arguments. The only real downside to my idea is that list points become even more useless, we have Trusta's GDDP to give a player suggestions for what level to go for

[@neevee_gd]

hemi medium

[@Robinnn_nope]

I think the demonlist is fair and good cuz its keeping the game alive thats atleast how i see it in my eyes. The only problem i have with the demonlist is their placements being stupid and inaccurate but everyone does so it doesnt matter

[@xBZZZZyt]

me who suck at stereo madness: hmm yes interesting

[@even6978]

cool video but please make your points more brief, it took 10 minutes for a point that could have taken 2-3

[@petrikhorr]

gd ladder actual gigachad

[@_kb2110_]

i have a feeling this guy would get on with or clash really badly with stormfly

[@AnfisaAlyssa]

The nightmare and hemi are not the same difficulty the nightmare is an easy demon while hemi is a medium demon

[@IsntPhoenix]

Don't change the demons list, make a new list for it

[@themonodoesyoungerbrotherc7105]

15:40 "long enough" legit 25 minute vid lol