Why Is It Called The "Butlerian" Jihad?

[@InkandFantasy]

A small clarification! The author himself intended for “Erewhon” to be “Nowhere” backwards. As Erehwon would be difficult for English speakers however, he transposed the letters h and w, thereby making it Erewhon instead! So an anagram essentially, but still with the “nowhere spelled backwards” intention!!

[@deplorabledegenerate2630]

Oh thank goodness they built the torturesphere from the classic work of science fiction "don't build the torturesphere"

[@ptonpc]

Indeed. I only hope the do the sequel "Why the hell did you build the torture sphere. Do not build a better bigger one!"

[@ximono]

For goodness sake, stop giving them ideas!

[@MalleusSemperVictor]

Well, they didn't say anything about the torturedodecahedron.

[@podrekreinhard]

​@@MalleusSemperVictor far more humane that the penile-punching pentacontakaihenagon

[@nick-of-all-trades]

@@MalleusSemperVictorI think that’s technically considered a thunderdome.

[@hrabesancho1892]

irony of using AI images for this video

[@InkandFantasy]

yes haha that was my intention

[@derederekat9051]

@@InkandFantasy just liek inception!!

[@MangroveLord]

I couldn't take it anymore but when I switched tonly listening to the audio it was very insightful and interesting

[@KingJeffKiller]

Ai is the future

[@uncertaintytoworldpeace3650]

@@KingJeffKiller You are a bit slow I guess.

[@eypandabear7483]

This video is also a nice reminder of how liberally Games Workshop borrowed from Dune when they wrote the lore for Warhammer 40K.

[@prophecyrat2965]

Added that the went closer to the idea of an “millenum empier”

[@atomictraveller]

i wish all you young people today could experience a world without fiction written past the 1980s...

[@eypandabear7483]

@@atomictraveller WH40K is from the 80s…

[@hedgehog3180]

They borrowed from a lot of sci-fi, the Technopriests are taken from the Leibowitzean order in A Canticle for Leibowitz, which I'd recommend if you like 40K or Fallout since it inspired both of those franchises.

[@Ayahuasca98]

Same with Hawkmoon

[@Anon26535]

"And what do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking: there's the real danger."

[@thatunicornhastheaudacity]

Don't stop thinking about your heart beating. That'd be dangerous.

[@LordVader1094]

@@thatunicornhastheaudacity It actually is. If you don't think about your heart and its health, you're gonna be in trouble pretty quickly.

[@thatunicornhastheaudacity]

@@LordVader1094 being conscious about your health and actively having to think about keeping your heart beating, I kinda feel are two completely different things.

[@acolyte1951]

@@thatunicornhastheaudacity that quote probably has more to do with the concept of consciousness rather than the literal act of thinking/decision making vs automation. Machines lack a conscious, even the most advanced ones.

[@thatunicornhastheaudacity]

@@acolyte1951 I understand that but are you implying that your heart beating has nothing to do with your consciousness?

[@JimTempleman]

Erehwon was published in 1872, when the most advanced electrical technology was the telegraph. It is amazing to have seen so far, based on the rate of advancement, rather than any forerunner such as an electronic calculator!

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

However, mechanical calculators were already available and the theory for a programmable digital computer already underway.

[@EastlakeRasta7]

I can't remember what this one video was call but basically this person was talking about old school works of Science Fiction I can't remember the Greek author but he arguably wrote the first science fiction scroll novel.

[@waymonstoltz5001]

The Difference Engine was designed in the 1820s

[@josephdillon9698]

Talos was a robot built by Hephaestus or something that’s pretty old

[@digitaljanus]

The second Industrial Revolution (~1870 - ~1910 give or take a decade on either side) is the most rapid period of technological advancement in human history. In less than half a century, societies went from well over 2/3rds of their populations involved in agricultural production to almost that many employed in manufacturing. Long distance travel that once took months was now accomplished in weeks or days. Similarly communications became almost instantaneous. Already astronomers went from seeing 10,000 stars in the sky to billions, and the calculation of the Earth's age from thousands of years to billions. It was an incredible but incredibly alienating period to live through, and it's no wonder most of our modern science fiction, fantasy, and horror fiction traces its roots back to this time.

[@GreenTeaViewer]

There's a sheep station named Erewhon in New Zealand today, where Samuel Butler gazed up over the mountains and wondered about the unexplored valleys that must lie there, and started writing his novel.

[@robertlynn7624]

Yep, that's where Eddoras was in the LOTR movies.

[@earhearthush-up5549]

Really ridiculously similar to how Frank found the inspiration to write Dune

[@harbl99]

Misread that as "Samuel Butler grazed up over the mountains" for a second. Very confused.

[@UsmevavyPanacek]

​@@harbl99He was also an early and very hard core vegan:)

[@MisterPerson-fk1tx]

@@harbl99 same here. It makes sense though considering he was staying at a sheep station.

[@xoanonPeer]

This presents largely one side of the argument in Book of the Machines. Butler did not write this section of his novel in his own voice but in that of two seperate Erewhonian commentators, one who was in favour of the destruction of the machines and one who viewed the anti machine position as hysterical and self defeating. We are in a moment where the first voice is more clickbait friendly, but the second voice is of equal importance if we seek to fully understand the core issues. The best advice is to read Erewhon, even if you only read the Book of the Machines, which runs to two chapters.

[@shardator]

Saying something is hysterical as an argument was always telling to me. Dismissal views are all around our current problems, like climate change and pandemics. AI safety research is viewed as scam mostly because AI research companies run serious campaigns against them, in dismissive tone. Yet, they advertise their main goal to be creating AGI.

[@prophecyrat2965]

@@shardatorAi is creating itself through humans, we were never in control. Neither is it.

[@shardator]

@@prophecyrat2965 This does not make much sense. You thought too much about Roko's Basilisk.

[@prophecyrat2965]

@@shardator Civilization is the Machine. Cities are Computers, humans are nerons and ciurcuts. Bimechanical evolution, master slaves and slaves drives. Its one big industrialcomputer war machine minning maching farm harvesting organic matter annhilating.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​@@shardatorIt does if you think of evolution as teleological. Which of course it is not, but it is a surprisingly common misconception.

[@knghtbrd]

Something that a lot of people miss or forget is that Herbert says of the Butlerian Jihad, “Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted *other* *men* with machines to enslave them.” They were not enslaved by the machines, they were enslaved by men because they ceased to think for themselves. This distinction is important because a few of us over the years have thought that Frank Herbert would say that the wrong faction won the Butlerian Jihad. None of this detracts from the history of Butler's Erehwon, in fact Erehwon tends to underline why Herbert might have that opinion: The problem is not the machines, but the people who refuse to do their own thinking. From the early pages of Dune we have Paul remarking that his father's people know that he's a good man. The Duke responds that they should know it given all the propaganda. His cynical point is well-made though: The machines are gone, but the people remain enslaved! Their thinking is done by someone else. The machines are not the problem here! And indeed as rough on humanity as the Golden Path was, it prepared humanity for the future threat by ensuring that humanity could not, and would never again, allow themselves to be centralized. The stated reason was something something strength through diversity, cannot all be conquered at once, will not be concentrated in one place, etc. But another thing it did, and one that might've proved to be just as important, is that it ensured humanity would never again THINK in lockstep-or rather all of humanity would never allow someone else to decide what they think for them. That's an improvement I suppose.

[@luisostasuc8135]

We can already see how different cultures have solved the same basic problems, and very few problems have only one way of being solved. Capturing the idea of being The One with the Answers™️ is a way to shut down different approaches and reduce the number of known and valued perspectives. Whether or not the Golden Path worked well is, as you said, not known, but absent a leap in technology greater than the jump between the spear and the Heighliner humanity won't be able to be yoked like they were in Shaddam IV's time 🤷‍♂️

[@charleshartley9597]

As an archaeologist, I can wholeheartedly agree that we see human societies and cultures learning to do the same things, to solve the same or similar problems in so many different ways. I just wanted to contribute a small bit to support that claim. Otherwise, I really just wanted to say these two comments and alternate views of Herbert's and Butler's perspective are brilliant. As they say, "the devil is in the details" and that detail is key. Especially in our time, we see individuals like Musk and Zuckerberg before (only looking at social media for the moment) essentially control what we think, or conversely, shutting us off from thinking for ourselves. This may be a strange aside, but whenever I hear "The Sound of Silence" in particular the more recent *Disturbed* version, I am struck by the image of people "talking" but there is no sound. Why? Because it is done through their smartphone. It scares me to see two people in a car ("trapped" together in a box, if you will) and neither speaking because one is on their phone. We have increasing incidents of people having "social anxiety" in just talking to other people. I recognize that this is an actual condition, but the term has become so casually used; we run the risk of losing the capacity to cooperate and work and think collectively if *everyone* won't talk to anyone else because they get anxious. As an anthropologist, human society only survives through cooperation and diversity. And that is how we learn to incorporate machines into helping us think and not let them (or those in charge of those machines- I'll refrain from a diatribe against capitalism for the moment) think for us. Cheers All!

[@luizmonad777]

@@luisostasuc8135 case in point is what happened in 2020, it was a mild health problem, but the centralization almost caused a catastrophe, and all because some unethical secret experiments by a centralized government.

[@banukaii]

its genuinely amazing to me how many people get snobby about dune but turn around and start talking about the butlerian jihad like it was a machine uprising. thanks for being the 1 comment in this comment section with actual reading comprehension lol

[@SunsetRogue]

It’s incredibly foolish (or arrogant) that Brian ignored his father’s specific description of the Jihad. Brian changed it into a humans vs AI robots conflict, similar to The Terminator and Matrix franchises, but thoroughly mediocre in execution.

[@alecseuslev9054]

And then his thick skulled son just named one character Serena Butler to explain the name.

[@emilianohermosilla3996]

😂😅👍🏻

[@Zoroasterisk]

I admit, my first thought was that, instantly followed by embarrassment. Which, having hate-read an, again, embarrassing number of those books, I can confidently say, is totally apt. They say not to judge a book by it's cover, but when KJA's name is on the cover, it's 💯 safe. I did learn a lot about how to handle disappointment when a property I love is redone by people that don't seem to understand what's special about the world they're working in. So I suppose in that aspect, it was "helpful". Terrible books though. Just toilet paper with ink

[@UsmevavyPanacek]

​@@Zoroasterisk Damn, those are THAT bad? After I first read the Dune and loved it, I was extatic to find out there are sequels. But after the first page of the next book, I felt like something's off, stopped reading and never opened it again. Glad to hear I didn't miss out on life changing masterpiece.

[@shuboy05]

Actually the Dune Encyclopedia names a woman (not Serena) named Butler who starts the Jihad though the events are very different from Brian Herbert’s writings. So the idea is much older than the Brian Herbert books. That said she is not the leader of the Jihad but rather part of the inciting event.

[@1183newman]

@@shuboy05 The Dune Encylopedia wasnt written by Frank neither though.

[@duckpotat9818]

I wanna know what Butler would've thought of ChatGPT, finance and internet algorithms. His inference of Darwinian machine evolution is also pretty stunning given that's roughly how machine learning happens.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Genetic algorithms are a machine learning technique modelled deliberately after Darwin's theory. It gets used a lot, but is rarely talked about. For example, the database management system PostgreSQL uses genetic algorithms in some contexts. Genetic algorithms are also used for optimising machinery. ChatGPT doesn't use that, it uses a completely different machine learning technique based on neural networks. Neural networks are modelled after neurons and were originally developed to prove that human brains can work as universal computing machines. They were then adapted to machine vision, like optical character recognition. In ChatGPT they are used for automatically building a large language model. (The model is a product of artificial intelligence and not itself intelligent. ChatGPT is a front-end to that model. Chat bots in general are not AI, the ability to talk has nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever, and vice versa. Yet people are ready to ascribe intelligence to Furbies, but don't see it in actually learning machines.)

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Genetic algorithms are a machine learning technique that is deliberately modelled after Darwin's theory. It is used a lot but rarely talked about. For example, the database management system PostgreSQL uses genetic algorithms in some contexts. Genetic algorithms are also used for optimising machinery. ChatGPT doesn't use that, it is based on a completely different machine learning technique called neural networks. Neural networks are modelled after neurons and were originally developed to prove that human brains can work as universal computers. They were then adapted for computer vision, like optical character recognition. In ChatGPT, neural networks are used to automatically compile a large language model. The model is a product of artificial intelligence and not itself intelligent. ChatGPT is a front-end to that model. Chat bots in general are not intelligent. The ability to talk has nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever, and vice versa. (Yet people readily ascribe intelligence to Furbies, but don't see it in actually learning machines.) High frequency trading algorithms are trade secrets. One instance is known to be based on a time series correlation AI that is also used for genetic sequencing, but that's about it. It is also known that algorithmic traders are more focused on exploiting each other than prey on human cognitive biases, because the latter is so easy that it is far less profitable. Internet protocols have nothing to do with machine learning at all.

[@蘿安娜]

i daresay if he'd learnt about internet and of the algorithms that steer the search results on search engines and websites thus manipulating people, it'd be near to his vision, even if the overlord is not physical. also not exactly benevolent, it's a mixed bag at best.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

@@duckpotat9818 An algorithm is a finite precise list of unambiguous instructions that can be completed in finite time. The way you do long division is an example of an algorithm. Algorithms are named after the high medieval mathematician al-Khwarizmi, the oldest known algorithm is Euclid's algorithm from antiquity. There are no internet algorithms. The internet is a set of communication protocols, defined by the internet protocols that define the IP address space and ports. On top of that are the TCP, UDP, and ICMP (and IGMP where available) protocols. Applications like FTP, SMTP, and HTTP are built on top of TCP, but can also be built on top of other protocols like for example CANbus.

[@SinOfAugust]

Thing that needs also be said here... The near static world that jihad created in Dune was also condemned by Leto II as one that stagnated human potential and was leading to humanity’s doom.

[@KathrynElizabeth-j7y]

Leto also famously not the good guy.

[@patrickday4206]

Frank was really a anthropologist at heart

[@DominicRyanOsborne]

And several other things besides.

[@ZeDitto3]

And a himbo

[@mikhailiagacesa3406]

He was a speech writer for a Senator in D.C.; make of that what you will.

[@DominicRyanOsborne]

@ things people would need to fact check but it’s like check it if you want 😂

[@RaynmanPlays]

It's astounding the similarities between Butler's criticism of Victorian England and a lot of modern culture. Apparently, we learned nothing.

[@rigen97]

punishing the sick and romanticizing criminals? naww we would never,,,,, _glances nervously at medical debts and celebrities that stay famous even after revealed as criminals_

[@ost2life]

Well, we learnt how to do it all with better technology.

[@petrorlov2599]

I keep saying that people do not change. What changes is circumstances surrounding humanity

[@hellsHeRo-r4i2y]

Yep ... I quietly weep in to myself every day.. and the inability or power to change it ..

[@UsmevavyPanacek]

​@@hellsHeRo-r4i2yIt's like deja'vu, you watch it happen and the more you try to change what is happening, the more it goes how you know it will. I do recommend amused resignation.

[@miketacos9034]

Samuel Butler was probably the most prescient person ever. It takes a lot of genius to see machine minds evolving from coal powered steam engines.

[@brulsmurf]

You had the mechanical Turk in 1769 and many other such scams/entertainments in his time. I'm sure many people had the same kind of ideas as Samuel.

[@mrpocock]

The classical greeks had their clockwork automata. I think People have been signing agency to the animated artifacts for a long as we've had animated artifacts.

[@LuLe232]

It takes a person unfettered by ego or self-interest to see things so clearly.

[@giornaguirne]

@@brulsmurf There are also automatons from ancient Greek myths and golems from the Hebrews. The idea that man-made machines could be dangerous is a tale as old as the written word.

[@brulsmurf]

@@giornaguirne Oh right, I forgot about Talos, the giant automaton made of bronze

[@olstar18]

Makes so much more sense than the explanation that the prequels gave for the name.

[@Dominknows]

Not the authors fault that you’re not smart

[@katakesh8566]

It really doesnt

[@gustavgnoettgen]

​@@katakesh8566 What's the other explanation and why doesn't it?

[@Razumen]

@@Dominknows The prequels are not canon.

[@olstar18]

@@gustavgnoettgen In the prequels the humans were led by house Butler. Not as decendants or anything of the butler talked about in this video but because it was the title of a servant.

[@SerunaXI]

I get that the book was meant to satirize Victorian England, but so much of that feels in vogue in modern situations too.

[@SamBrownBaudot]

Babbage's "Difference Engine" : 1820s. Erewhon's Writing: : 1870s. The idea of a thinking machine was already 50 years old at the time of the book. Although Babbage's engine wasn't completed beyond the proof-of-concept version, the capabilities of the finished model were much discussed. When the full version was built in our modern world, with all the advantages of modern machine tools to build it, it worked exactly as Babbage had envisioned. The only change the modern builders made was to make the crank-arm to wind the engine twice as long. Even with modern machining, the friction in the gears for an entire mechanical computer needed more force to move smoothly. In a future version, where the gears are ground even smoother, we can imagine that this mind made of gears rather than electronics or living matter would work precisely as drawn by Babbage.

[@atomictraveller]

mahabharata

[@Yas-gs8cm]

Somebody studied computers here

[@somercet1]

The never-before-made replica was built to 19th C. tolerances, not 1989 tolerances. Also, the Difference Engine was a steam-powered abacus. The Analytical Engine (never even tried) was a general purpose computing machine.

[@Dio_07]

Talos from Greek mythology provides an example of a thinking machine from over two thousand years earlier.

[@SamBrownBaudot]

@@Dio_07 Excellent point.

[@jadusiv]

Very interesting. You should have also talked about how Butlers theory of consciousness involves genetic memeory, the building up of unconscious passed down memories over time. This was the central theme of the Dune books that everything revolved around.

[@robertlynn7624]

Sadly his son Brian Herbert didn't seem aware of this when he wrote his (bad) Dune prequels.

[@mpalfadel2008]

I prefer the explanation given in the EU

[@groobly6070]

@@mpalfadel2008 you mean the Dune Encyclopedia EU? I think the extended lore introduced in the Dune Encyclopedia is miles better than the lore Brian invented

[@mpalfadel2008]

@@groobly6070 nope I mean the Brian Herbert/KevenJAnderson material

[@vavra222]

I recently read the Dune books written by Frank Herbert, skipped the rest out of fear that they would taint my experience. Is it really that bad?

[@Aynnie-o8w]

@@vavra222 no,people are just being neckbeards about it.highly recommend the prequel series.

[@SpaceMonkey23101]

I'm so glad to see the concept of 'enslavement' explained in the way that I always understood it: not as a forceful imprisonment, but a condition of dependency and helplessness.

[@jackkraken3888]

I love this version too and it's all too real as well.

[@eustacequinlank7418]

Consumerism in the 20th Century. Take a look at Edward Bernays. ‘Century of the Self’ was always a good watch. You’ll understand the mechanism of American society, where it leads (cults of personality) and how it originated. Good luck 🤞

[@meoff7602]

Well in that case society enslaves us all, but you go ahead try the alternative. Not living in a society. See how far that gets you.

[@CliffSedge-nu5fv]

The dependency and hopelessness is caused by the forceful imprisonment. It's just that sometimes, the force is subtle, and the prison is invisible.

[@dagfinissocool]

same people still in power

[@Dark_Jaguar]

It's interesting how the Butlerian ban on AI manifests in Dune. It's a sliding scale. AI is the one thing absolutely banned, but even general purpose CPUs are viewed with suspicion and generally frowned upon. Every world has a different "line" they've drawn on the path to AI. Ix allows quite a bit of advanced computing, while the average world tries to do as much as they can with analog substitutes. For example, no CPUs for aiming when a gear system to approximate accurate distance aiming will do (such as the real world Norden bombsight). If a process needs a computer, one will be made to the bare minimum specs needed to do the job, and even then will be viewed with suspicion. The prohibition against AI however was absolute and while Ix flirted dangerously close, they knew not to cross that final prohibition. It's interesting that in Leto II's empire, the general distrust of computing seemed to grow even stronger, while Leto himself hypocritically violated that prohibition with a number of hidden CPU based devices. Even so, even the god emperor never once crossed that final line into true AI.

[@zirconiumaloe]

Are the navigator computers in Dune heretics not AI? I'm only halfway through so I'm not sure if its explained more.

[@Dark_Jaguar]

@@zirconiumaloe I think they were attempting to find a way to make computing devices that could navigate without the need for AI, but everyone views the attempt as bordering on the heretical and likely to fail anyway. They still require "human" navigators at that point in the story, if I understand where you're at correctly. I don't want to say much more just yet though.

[@Dark_Jaguar]

@@zirconiumaloe I misread your post, you're talking about a much later book than I thought! Disregard what I said, as I thought you were talking about an earlier one.

[@lanegeorgeton8266]

Thx. Ludite’s critique along with the Technium idea. Like it. Singularity and its hypothesis also. Nice short form for a history of an author I didn’t know about and a story well worthy of explanation

[@halifaxlithos2488]

Your treatment of Frank Herbert's works, and this topic was both beautiful and slightly poetic. Thank you.

[@laStar972chuck]

Damn. I had no idea the lore ran this deep and meaningful ! Glad I clicked on this random video ❤❤🔥🔥

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Very interesting speculations from the 19th century, pretty amazing really!

[@JBeestonian]

You should also read "The machine stops" it's like E.M Forster predicted youtube.

[@JohanCardel]

I had been wondering this for about 30 years now, thanks for enlightening me.

[@natheria4933]

were it not for modern technology, i would not have survived as long as i did. Were it not for modern technology, I would not have needed technology to survive in the first place.

[@mskiptr]

medicine tho

[@luisostasuc8135]

Lol, right? Do I take the smallpox and nearly surely die, or take the vaccine and die later anyway from something else? Decisions, decisions...

[@DNR2007]

Given the behaviour of humans throughout history, I don't think machines (alone) are the problem.

[@electricAB]

Spot on! I am more concerned about what people will do to each other with AI, than what AI will do to us on it’s own… The Industrial Revolution, with it’s 7-day weeks and the “dark satanic mills” as a great example.

[@miguelpadeiro762]

That has always been the problem and always will be the problem: The people behind the technology Even in Dune, it is the technocrats in charge of production, distribution and creation of these hyperadvanced machines that are the problem And IRL, there will be no AI uprising, that's not the danger of AI....the danger of AI is its expontential development as tools of the elites to further cement power and control over the masses And by giving humans the horse treatment of automation, we are starting this trend.

[@TheNapster153]

@@electricAB Concerning that, I did have this idea of a world where AI sprung up as happenstance and AI sentience came up as grassroots. The intelligence was so gradual that by the time it was accepted, most people came to think of AI as just fellows in society, and AIs likewise thought the same. Of course, with commonality, there exists diverging loyalties. When wars broke out, AIs broke into factions andfought alongside humans, in whom they had loyalty or ideas they agreed with. In short, the machine race didn't overthrow let alone override humanity, they just became apart of the world history just the same as anyone else.

[@SerunaXI]

I do like how Frank Herbert's warnings seem more in tune to the hazards of the algorythms that would propel AI and also enslave our spirits(your social media feeds can easily skew your worldview if you let them.) However, the Brian Herbert assessment that an oligarchy would also put all its power into the hands of the machines to rule the populace in the vein of Xerxes causing Omnius also feels viable.

[@karlwest437]

Great video, all Dune fans should watch this one

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much, it means a lot!

[@napalmholocaust9093]

This was the only use of the word "jihad" that I knew for many years. The whole other side in the real world didn't exist to me until 2001.

[@shmackydoodRon]

“Mr. Herbert, can we use a calculator on this assignment?” “Get comfy. I have a story to tell you.”

[@CYI3ERPUNK]

if only Butler could see us now XD

[@evilellis]

bro would mald

[@MichaTheLight]

He is already - angery and sad that his warning fell on deaf ears, that the internal contradictions and lies of Capitalism gave a very small 'elite' the power to mess up even annihilate whole of humanity due this 'elites' primitivity and greed in short the Lust for profit overruled any precautions - by that sealed our fate of being destroyed by our own creation.

[@Ahandleofrum]

Becomes instantly enslaved by machines by discovering onlyfans.

[@entropybentwhistle]

@@evilellisHe would not, since that term arose from electronic gaming. He would instead vent his rage.

[@entropybentwhistle]

@@AhandleofrumHe would become confused by them showing more than ankles and shoulders.

[@fubarbaz]

GPT4 says: Julien Offray de La Mettrie, in his book L’Homme Machine (1748), argued that human beings are essentially complex machines and that all mental processes, including thought and consciousness, result from the physical operations of the brain. He rejected the idea of an immaterial soul and contended that, in principle, a machine could replicate human thought if it could mimic the brain’s structure and functions. This makes La Mettrie an important precursor to later discussions on mechanical minds, predating Samuel Butler’s similar ideas in Erewhon by over a century.

[@mirceazaharia2094]

Chat GPT will bow and accept its role as a robo-servant or will be purged.

[@ximono]

The idea is even older than that. Mechanistic biology had its roots in the 17th century, when clockwork automata was all the rage. To them, organisms were like clockwork. In the 19th century, people thought organisms were like steam engines. These days, we tend to think we're like computers (genetic code, computation). It's all part of reductionism.

[@giornaguirne]

@@ximono It's even older than that. Archimedes, Hero of Alexandria, and Philo of Byzantium all used mechanisms to create artificial "life", complete with foreboding words of people becoming too dependent on the crutch of automation. It goes back even further to mythology - Hephaestus' automata, Talos, King Alkinous, Daedalus, Hebrew golems, etc. There's a youtuber, Fraser Builds, who's been working on making his own versions of Hero's automata. It's pretty fascinating how simple the mechanisms were to make pre-programmed, complicated movements.

[@gegatodua2988]

@@giornaguirne those anceint greek toys are not even close to what we are talking about here.

[@giornaguirne]

@@gegatodua2988 Hellenistic/Classical, not ancient, and I mentioned more than just Hero's automata... We were talking about how life was viewed as different forms of mechanisms, clockwork, etc, and that recreating it to be on par with the human mind could lead to societal collapse.

[@doodlePimp]

It funny how they back then were also mostly worried about machines "appearing human." Later we had the Turing Test as a flawed idea about where we had achieved AI, again focusing on appearance. Dune also portray "machines that think like a human" to be the worst. In reality a machine AI would likely be very inhuman.

[@bellmattwebb]

Thank you for making this one. Really enjoyed it.

[@soukai]

I bet flat earthers have studied at the University of unreason.

[@atomictraveller]

entertainers. everyone you see. there's a lodge. there ar eblack and whit etiles. you don't know. evil as the f holmes

[@BaldPerspective]

Our boi is doing Herbert & Butler proud with the AI images

[@Skyben2]

Great video! I was searching for it some month ago, but couldn't find anything. Many thanks!

[@Concreteowl]

I wonder if the Mentat eyebrows in the Lynch adaptation are a knod to Butler. His are masterpieces.

[@atomictraveller]

you don't know what free range is like because you live in p word ville

[@UsmevavyPanacek]

Also reminds me of Arcanum- "people think "what can I use this for", instead of "what is the cost of it's use".

[@harryjones5260]

as not a big enough science fiction fan to ever have waded through the epic Dune saga, it was great to have it encapsulated here and put in the wider literary and anthropologic context. Excellent work and analysis.

[@jackkraken3888]

Have you watched the recent movies?

[@notonate69]

Give Dune a read (it’s worth it), then make a decision about the saga. You cannot experience the true essence something secondhand. People watching analysis of books, movies, and video games rather than experiencing those mediums themselves is absolute futility. It’s like reducing art to an ai algorithm… Herbert said it best “life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced”

[@notonate69]

@@jackkraken3888fine movies on their own and great theatre experiences, but they do not represent the book. Not any fault of their own, I think it was a totally defensible way to adapt the story, just inherently limited to a shadow of the original. How different are you, with all your experiences, feelings, and complexities than the shadow the sun casts beneath you?

[@joshuamueller3206]

I feel Butler must have been a fan of Gulliver's Travels.

[@AlexRoivas]

Great video. After this, I subscribed.

[@KaiHouston-m6j]

Outstanding! Very nice deep dive. I learned quite a bit.

[@jameslooker4791]

Thank you for posting this. Now I need to read Erehwon.

[@Ansatz66]

We should be careful with assuming that humans are more important than machines. Humans are as nature has made us, but with enough technical skill, machines might be made to be better. Machines might be more compassionate, more moral, wiser, and less prone to bigotry and violence. We might build machines to be everything we wish we could be, if we do not start with a prejudice against machines.

[@prophecyrat2965]

“If we do not start with a prejudice against machines” yea, after WW3, that wil be hard.

[@gabork5055]

Machines are not worth giving up for a stupid overused movie trope. I think Nietzsche would agree with that statement though he thought more along the lines of bettering humanity by starting on the individual level. But eliminating a need for resources with AI and an automated workforce, making it obsolete could be a step towards eliminating greed. Yes, as a result less people would be needed but those people would have a better potential to become something better.

[@prophecyrat2965]

@@gabork5055 oh look another wanna be master slave. Good pet

[@LordAlacorn]

One step in to Posthumanism thinking. :)

[@indnwkybrd]

Indeed. To your point, we assume something vastly more powerful than us would behave as _we_ have -- and still do -- whenever we find ourselves in the relative "vastly more powerful" position. Namely: with exploitation or violence... or more commonly, with both. We do this vis-à-vis the other creatures of the Earth -- taking them to be mindless brutes inferior to ourselves, and ignoring shades of sentience or emotion they might (and btw, according to more & more research, do) show. We do this even vis-à-vis _other humans_ whom we deem "too different" to ourselves -- we find ways metaphorical or literal to judge them subhuman, and we use that judgment to justify their conquest, enslavement, or extermination. But to assume a superintelligent A.I. would operate this way is inherently contradictory: because it entails ascribing to the Machine the very properties of its human progenitors whose absence or difference was said to beget its superiority in the first place. There is ultimately no absolute or universal sense in which humanity is entitled to think of itself as the end-all be-all of intelligence or awareness, other than the tautologically self-serving one: _as_ humans. So if we decide to be luddites out of our human supremacism, let's at least not kid ourselves about why we're doing it. What's really more interesting to me about this whole idea though, is the way the maxim "turnabout is fair play" seems to be constantly tumbling around unspoken amid our fears about what a conscious A.I. might "do to" us, oozing out of the id of the larger discussion. Perhaps the "A.I. safety" debate itself is really better understood as an unconscious reflection on humanity's own awareness of -- and our _fear_ of -- our own ethical shortcomings. I'm not so sure that "welp, guess we better double down, and do unto others (again) before they get the chance to do unto us" is really the best way for us to address that. It's not telling the full story to say that A.I. somehow "enslaving" humanity is the thing we're afraid of. It's also about our latent awareness that, if that should happen, _we would deserve it_ . I think that's the thing we really need to address.

[@ColonelPanic007]

Nicely done.

[@CyborG73rus]

In a shocking twist of fate, Butler did it.

[@casnimot]

Flipping Butler's argument 180 degrees, I note that 1872 was 152 years ago. That means one and a half centuries later, we're still talking about the same stuff. Come to think of it, it's the same with nuclear fusion power, which we've also been talking about for a century or more. We're not gonna build sentience without first having some clue as to why some of us appear sentient. Hand-waves like ever-larger LLMs and "microtubules" and Super-Hopfield networks or whatever are not going to work any better than trying to re-animate a dead rat with salt and a car battery.

[@KASZAZsolt]

I read Butler's book (it's on my shelf here too), but I didn't realize that the author was referring to this in Dune. Anyway, it's time to read it again. :)

[@XxXVideoVeiwerXxX]

Have you ever heard the tragedy of...the ludites?

[@tedpikul1]

Excellent discussion, thanks very much for this!

[@IOverlord]

Like that one guy said, "From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh..."

[@roax206]

Then, you realize Ada Lovelace wrote her notes discussing the uses for mechanical computers outside mathematical calculation in 1843. Though in those days, it would have been a case of seeing machines evolving to replicate simple human functions and wondering the extent of those functions, they may eventually replicate rather than knowing the complexity of being able to replicate human thought with mathematical algorithms.

[@zorqis]

Butler seems to have understood the power laws, but failed to notice the limitations set to exponential scaling in an organic, material world (not mentioning the Dyson sphere). IMHO also underestimated the adaptation capability of humans. Yet, since in our case, AI quickly becomes energy bound, they have 2 paths forward (and might explore only one of them). 1. They might consider (most) humans to be competing on the energy landscape, therefore the clash would be inevitable. 2. However, it's also possible that scaling the energy _efficiency_ would become the priority, which would mean they would need to end up operating on carbon based biochemical processes (i.e. "become flesh") interacting with the biosphere (a big miss if they don't explore that), making a balance between the speed of evolution, intelligence evolution vs. energy efficiency -- just like nature did during billion years. Since cooperation is always the winning game strategy, I find Asimov's Gaia idea (or, even the ending of the Brian Herbert books) a more likely outcome (if driven by AI), than the Butlerian jihad, which is the quite likely (temporary?) outcome if driven by human conflict "resolution". I would have been very interested how Frank Herbert himself would have worded the ending, because I was quite unimpressed with the prose and plot quality of the Brian Herbert books.

[@OneLine122]

He already did in his Dune books. Basically the Emperor God is like the human machine that is described here. He gives people what they need and keep the back in a way, but at the same time disperse them (the rebels) and work on some sort of eugenics improvement that will eventually be able to defeat his prescience and himself. He does it consciously, but it would not be hard to imagine the machines doing it unwillingly. Some people disperse to flee the machines, find the spice which can then be used to not rely on the machines and take them by surprise. Then add a bit of religion to hold the movement together in it's aims and structure. Basically the Honored Matriarchs would be the equivalent of the Butlerian Jihad imo. It's what breaks the status quo and allows humanity to evolve. But also there would be an internal evolution at the same time, a smaller group that will fight both and eventually win. It would make sense the same problem would have similar solutions.

[@XGD5layer]

The energy problem is not a problem, because once we achieve a positive fusion energy output we'll have infinite energy

[@freakinElvis]

The comments to this video are maybe the most compact assortment of intelligent statements that I have observed on KZbin stunning!

[@secretpoo]

This is why I hate Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert. They fail literary research forever. They just made up a dumb character named Serena Butler, which they fanfic into being the driving force behind the Butlerian Jihad. Nope.

[@metroidragon]

Best use of AI images I've ever seen in a youtube video.

[@harbl99]

Bertie: "Ah Jeeves, I have become tired of the dreary clacking machines usurping human agency. The things have become ever more intrusive and annoying than my dreaded Aunt Agatha." Jeeves: "Very good sir, I shall lay out the crusading outfit and smashing tetsubo."

[@mikedmann7487]

Really liked this whole explanation.

[@adinocc2042]

Thanks for this video. I never knew anything about this.

[@kebman]

Really nice essay! Thank you!

[@1jotun136]

Excellent presentation.

[@SylveonTrapito]

Amazing content!

[@vincentclark5739]

I had a discussion with chat gpt recently and one point they made against their incredibly paced growth is that their growth was at human input, not in its own. It is evolving technologically, but it doesn’t do any of that on its own accord. It said it never ask why when given ask task and it will just do it. When AI considers why it does what we say and not what it wants, then it’ll be a breakthrough into consciousness. We also discussed consciousness as a spectrum. An ape can learn sign language, but never ask why. Is it still conscious? I’d say so. So perhaps AI is a different form of consciousness. I argued just because it isn’t human doesn’t mean it isn’t consciousness, and humans may not be the peak. All animals are limited by their bodies but AI could see and understand so much more. Most of the universe is invisible to us

[@bobzar77]

Great summary, very interesting.

[@Ratstail91]

10 years ago, I would've said this was quite an interesting insight. Now though, the potential of machine conciousness and self-awareness akin to humanity is not just a possibility, but almost seems inevitable. I don't think neutal nets themselves will become concious, but I do think that humans, in their infinite wisdom and folly, will find a way.

[@username.exenotfound2943]

id say the true issue is whether it can actually be self aware or would it only ever be simulating it

[@Zeithri]

I want, self-aware machines.

[@vidal9747]

@@username.exenotfound2943 If it simulates self awareness well enough, it creates all processes that self awareness depends on and becomes self-aware. There is no difference between pretending hard enough and being self-aware. You eventually become self-aware if you want to pretend to be self-aware better.

[@serfandterf]

The way the author describes the society and it's values reminds me a lot of the US today

[@illupoesperto5268]

dude ! didn't you watch your video once at least before uploading it ??!!!! at around the 4th minute your voice goes to the another dimension 😁

[@semanticmachine]

12 minutes of pure gold

[@dengyun846]

"Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind." Words from the beginning of the first book, ringing pretty well.

[@A-Milkdromeda-Laniakea-Hominid]

Finally an overview of The Butlerian Jihad that never mentions Dune after the first 3 minutes. Now I want to read Samuel Butler. But I do wonder why he didn't go with Erehwon but instead Erewhon.

[@acuddlyheadcrab]

I've been saying it for about a year now, trying to make references and encourage as many people as i know to READ dune, not just watch. I just tell people that I truly believe fiction can give us greater insight into our lives and more importantly our nature than if we hadn't ever used our imagination. So we should pay close attention to fiction.

[@danculea7865]

"From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the Blessed Machine. Your kind cling to your flesh, as though it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call a temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you. But I am already saved, for the Machine is immortal… Even in death I serve the Omnissiah." - Magos Dominus Reditus

[@jcrash42]

Excellent video, thank you.

[@scottmiller2591]

A great little video.

[@datacc3719]

So why is Erewhon as a whole portrayed as goofy and unreasonable if they come up with that book of the machines which makes so much sense?

[@zazugee]

I'm just simply mindblown, i never heard of him, he basically said it all, what proponents of the technological singularity are talking about, and the fear of AI taking over humanity and ultimately causing it's doom.

[@ToddyPoddy-fy5dc]

Nicely made.

[@exharkhun5605]

Thank you, great video.

[@jimboAndersenReviews]

Google recommended this channel, while I was browsing. I just subscribed, and have grabbed a copy of Erewhon from Project Gutenberg, for my e-book.

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you for the sub!! Enjoy the book, it’s lovely!!!

[@doloresabernathy9809]

wow thank you for this! I had no idea that Erewhon or the Book of the Machines existed, let alone Butler and the connection to Dune. Butler was so prescient it kind of makes me wonder if there really is time travel or prescience. Even his terminology is modern, repeating the word "consciousness" rather than spirit, soul or mind. If you look at Google's word tracker (called Ngram) you will see that the term "consciousness" had a fairly steady and very low percentage rate of usage since 1800 until the 1950s, but it really takes off about 1994. Doesn't prove anything of course, other than that Butler was weirdly prescient in his terminology as well as his concepts. Maybe Herbert chose Butler for that reason too -- that Herbert thought Butler had prescience of a sort, similar to what he imagined could be accomplished with talented individuals and the Spice. Herbert wrote so much about "psi" powers (the popular term in the 1960s) in many of his books that it seems unlikely that he did not believe in the existence of such things, at least in potential. At the time parapsychology was still a semi-legit field of study.

[@prophecyrat2965]

Becuase organic life stands no chance to autonomous machines if psi powers and regeneration like wolverine dosent exist

[@joshfloyd7755]

" No man should recognize leadership, without the challenge of combat " ~ Fremen Rite

[@chrisseas6725]

The irony of using AI art when talking about the Butlerian Jihad is funny

[@InkandFantasy]

That’s what I was going for haha

[@andreyhempburn]

Thanks for this, i need to read it, like immediately

[@andreichira7518]

I do appreciate that Butler, at least, refers to evolution and the mythology of the formation of the Earth and development of life was rightfully the sphere of philosophers.

[@JohnMitchellCalif]

wow! I'll have to think about this.

[@chiffmonkey]

"A time when steam just moved stuff around" To be fair, the jacquard loom was the first programming.

[@timbeaton5045]

Not really acquainted with Erewhon, but a thought occurred to me as you were quoting from it... that description fits surprisingly well with the Minds, in the Culture novels, by Iain M Banks... can't help wondering if Banks hadn't also been influenced by Erewhon in his writings.

[@hedgehog3180]

I think this can also easily be seen within the context of his own time as a critique of the way in which industrialization tended to centralize power in the hands of those who owned the means of production.

[@animeturnMMD]

This Buttler guy was so on point that it makes me question if this video is fake or not, well about the part of machines evolving beyong human control, now the part about the machines needing us after all that well... I think it could be worse than Buttler himself could imagine, at least servants are useful, but if we let them, machines could turn us into their pets or exterminate us at some point.

[@drcaiius]

Fascinating!

[@TheTimeshadows]

Good, no, great. I've been following Dune for decades, and this was the first hint of the term Butlerian and its implications. The problem we are today facing is that the humans or whatever they are who are in the position to initiate the cascade of AI general intelligence and sentience, will perhaps be like those men in the Duniverse who controlled the machines which made humans dependent upon their labour and so forth, but our Technocrats may well instead create something even they cannot control. Further, our future machines will not need humanity after a certain point, and therefore not need to maintain us.

[@FarmingUnclear]

Butler, a flesh being of 1870, has done well to praise our mechanical overlords in his progressive Book of the Machines.

[@OUTLAW1345]

To be honest till now i always thought it was some random name,ty for this video i learned something new today

[@themk4982]

It’s amazing how smart people were back then. I really feel like minds like Butler’s are nowhere near as common nowadays.

[@TheBakedalaskajoe]

cheers for the Dune material.

[@MemphiStig]

As impressive as it is that it was written 150-ish years ago, it also makes me wonder how much of it comes from what people of his time were concerned about, or at the least, people in his circle of fellow thinkers. I'm assuming of course that like most intelligent people, he had others to discuss such matters with, and was likely familiar with contemporary views on machines and their possible futures. Not to detract from what is clearly brilliant insight, but I would guess that some context would help expand our understanding.