Why is it important to separate grounds and neutrals in a sub-panel? - The House Whisperer Show

Jack discusses the importance of separate grounds on neutrals in a sub-panel.

[@bigdaddy7670]

The removal of the bonding screw or bond bar is a need to know for us DIYers. Very valuable information that you do not hear anywhere else on the net. Excellent video.

[@spencerwyche2552]

Damn Jack,take your time.That green screw is not a grounding screw,its a bonding screw.

[@glennalan]

Another great video jack! Very helpful and informative! Keep the videos coming! Thank you

[@thehousewhisperershow]

Thanks! Will do!

[@ShermanT.Potter]

I'm just a farmer doing my own electrical. But IIRC, NEC 2014? and back allowed bonding the ground and neutral in the subpanel. Does it work? Sure, my old farrowing house is done that way because they didn't run a ground wire to the building, but I installed a grounding wire to devices in the building, and grounded the metal conduit to it as well. If a hot wire touches a metal outlet box or conduit, I need a low resistance path to the transformer to trip the breaker. So, the power would go from the metal outlet box, to a grounding screw to a ground wire, or through the metal conduit to another grounding screw, through the ground wires, to the bonding of the neutral/ground bars in the subpanel into the neutral, back to the main panel neutral, and trip the breaker. Not ideal, but it works. Can a ground rod installed at a subpanel not bonded to neutral do the same thing? DO NOT count on it at all, but if your circuit is close to rated load, it can. Example, I have 4 livestock waterers elecric heating elements connected to the same 20 amp breaker. Each element pulls 250 watts, 2 elements per waterer, 8 elements total, 2000 watts. That's IF all the thermostats are on at the same time, again, do not count on it. I had an element break on one of the waterers, sending power to the metal waterer body. I didn't bond the waterer to neutral, since you don't want anything more than about 1/2 volt measured from the waterer to a point on the ground a couple ft or so away, or the animals will feel it. And I didn't run a ground wire to service each waterer because I was young and stupid. So, each waterer has a ground rod, installed within the tile riser underneath each waterer, and the waterers connect to the ground rod. So, the little amount that can flow through the soil itself via a ground rod back to the main panel ground rod, in turn back to the transformer (can't remember what a shorted 120 volt circuit can feed through a ground rod, I think its a few amps) tripped the breaker. Again, DO NOT trust a ground rod to do this! Even though it worked, it probably took a while to trip if the soil could only take a few amps, making the waterer unsafe for a longer period of time than if a grounding wire was run with the hot and neutral and could be used. If the soil is dry, or the distance is too far, or the circuit isn't close to the rated load, it won't work! DO NOT ATTEMPT!

[@Ariel45305]

Question? What about if you use a 13,000 watt generator to power a tiny shed? If i put a panel in a shed to be run only by a generator and not a main source of power, Do i bond the panel neutral to ground or is it ok to have them separated.. I would like to put a 50 amp panel but to be powered by generator only when im working in shed.. My question would be if the panel would be bonded since its my source of power to shed. Let me know if possible and thank you.

[@threeleggedman]

I had a pre-inspection and the inspector called out the main panel which was in a sliding-door closet. He recommend it be relocated, which would be a huge job. NJ house built in 1970. Will I get called out when getting C of O, and when a buyer's inspector comes?

[@morusso2831]

A lot of things have changed over the years! 🙁

[@spencerwyche2552]

Im an electrician in Maryland,and Im pretty sure ,your not allowed to have a panel,or sub panel in a closet.It has to be in a accessible area,am I right Jack?

[@ke6gwf]

Is a panel allowed to be inside a room with a door that closes? Then if the room is only 6 inches deep, it's still legal and accessible lol

[@morusso2831]

Back in the day…. Things were different! My guess is if it was ok when built, grandfathered …. But just an opinion.

[@paulbruneau7379]

Where was the answer to why it is important? I heard something about electricity flowing downhill and that's about it.

[@tommywatterson5276]

There was no answer. That's because nobody can scientifically explain why. The only answer is it's best to ground all neutrals and all grounds and equipment grounds...TO GROUND. Together or separate. Ground rod each box location if you want.

[@paulbruneau7379]

@@tommywatterson5276 I think you’re right

[@surferdude642]

​@@tommywatterson5276Actually he sorta did at about 2:55 when he said that the ground would be "energized" meaning current on the ground and causing parallel paths aka objectionable current. Google "objectionable current" for details.

[@lrayvick]

Nobody wants to answer my question about bonding the neutral and ground in a subpanel: We have a house in California built in 1956 with no grounds. A 40 amp house subpanel connects to a subpanel at our shed with two #8 hots and a #8 neutral. The shed subpanel feeds a 30 amp and a 15 amp circuit off different hots. The shed subpanel has grounding to a ground rod with #8. Would it be a good idea to bond the shed subpanel neutral and ground?

[@morusso2831]

Good question / senerio!

[@tommywatterson5276]

IDK why ..the neutrals and grounds ALL go to ground. In the older panels it didn't matter to run grounds and neutrals in the same ground bars. As matter of fact, in the panel boxes the ground and neutral bar were physically connected across to each other by a bar in the panel anyway. You couldn't separate them. I think it's a matter of the code just trying to rearrange things around to come up with a new rule. I do see newer panels now forcing you to separate the grounds and neutrals with the neutral white being connected to a neutral bar attached via the breaker now. Both black and white wires screw to the new breakers.

[@morusso2831]

Yes, very confusing when you are dealing with older panels…. Before all the code changes. Younger generations automatically say….. it’s WRONG…. BUT BACK IN THE DAY it was OK!

[@jstevens501]

just wondering what area allows services feeders to be installed without conduit? yours looks like SER cable. Cal. has to have feeders in rigid. just curious.

[@shaystern2453]

unions can't be everywhere

[@JustinSpakable]

Some counties dont require SER to be in conduit. And SER cables jacket is beefy enough to be fine without conduit. Its more of an extra form of protection

[@rickpearce4653]

Why aren’t those exterior cables NOT in a conduit ?

[@ke6gwf]

Because some places allow SER cable in the open.

[@ke6gwf]

Please use the right terms... It's a "bus bar", not a "Neutral Bar" lol Neutral bus bar or grounding bus bar please and thank you!

[@blakejones1546]

I guess all I’ve seen are sub panels

[@SteveStowell]

Grounds and neutrals have to be separated in both panels. You never stated why a sub panel is not bonded! I would not want you to inspect a home for me. Cant imagine your view on 10 amp breakers

[@TheYamahog12]

I’m not an electrician. I have consistently read that the neutral and ground busses are to be bonded in the main panel but separated in a sub. I’ve seen nothing that says they aren’t to be bonded in the main panel.

[@surferdude642]

Actually he did mention why starting at about 2:55 when he said that the ground wires would become "energized". What this means is that the ground and neutral must only be bonded at the main panel or in this case, the first means of disconnect, in order to prevent parallel paths of current on the neutral and ground. Being energized means there is current on ground wire when there should never be current there except for the brief moment before the breaker trips due to high current if a ground fault occurs. When current travels on ground when there is no ground fault it's also known as "objectionable current" which is a shock hazard.

[@SteveStowell]

@@surferdude642 but they have to be separated although yes bonded. Read the code

[@surferdude642]

​@@SteveStowellBonded only at the entry point and separated everywhere else, including sub panels and downstream receptacles.

[@thunderstorm6616]

Leave jack alone

[@johnmurphy9688]

Weird video. Your all over the place. Sorry. No thanks. Im out