Why Joanna of Castile Wasn't Really Insane - PART 2 | Joanna of Castile | Philip The Fair

Joanna of Castile has gone down in history as 'the Mad'. known for her apparent bouts of mental instability, and therefore unable to rule in her own right as Queen of Castile of Leon. But is that actually the truth? Or, was the politically unqualified and naïve Joanna a victim of a controlling husband, and two men who wanted her kingdom for themselves? This video looks at the evidence uncovered in recent years for Joanna's story, and dives into what the truth might really be...
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Sources and related books:
Sister Queens: Katherine of Aragon and Juana Queen of Castile by Julia Fox - amzn.to/3A6BX9W
Juana the Mad: Sovereignty and Dynasty in Renaissance Europe by Bethany Aram - amzn.to/3A6BXXu
Juana I: Legitimacy and Conflict in Sixteenth-Century Castile by Gillian B. Fleming - amzn.to/3L2tOty
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[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thanks for watching! 😊 So what are your thoughts on Joanna's apparent madness? And what about her later decisions involving her children?

[@leeannproctor2966]

I wonder if her love for her husband was grossly exaggerated.

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

Surprised as ugly as Ferdinand was that didn't cause him trouble in keeping the throne.

[@Laramaria2]

After so much abuse and betrayal, becoming paranoid was expected... Also, it's worth noticing that all the people spreading tales of her "madness" were the ones that would benefit from her being away from her power... Poor woman...

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're absolutely right, the main 'spreaders' of the rumours of Joanna's madness seem to mostly have been courtiers are servants in Ferdinand's employ. And I agree, her paranoia was almost certainly a result of her incarceration, as there is no evidence of it before that point.

[@OfficeSpace2909]

I personally think that in light of the excessive abuse that she endured both from her family and those who were supposed to be at service to her as their queen. It should not come as a surprise to anyone that she would eventually lose some of her mental faculties in regards to those aforementioned factors. I find it reprehensibly tragic that a woman, who was supposed to inherit and rule a kingdom by her own legal right, would be denied such a position by the avariciously driven men of her time and age. Thank you for concluding this very interesting topic about an, often, overlooked and under appreciated monarch. ❤

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're absolutely right - I personally think it was amazing how coherent she remained in later years, despite her paranoia, and it shows what incredible mental strength she must have actually had. And she certainly should have been given the opportunity to rule in her own right. I actually don't believe she would have been a very effective ruler, as she was politically inexperienced, easily manipulated, and not forceful enough, but none of those things prevented male rulers with the same qualities from holding the throne. A kinder father would have acted as a true co-regent, perhaps even shouldering the bulk of the decisions, without locking Joanna away.

[@OfficeSpace2909]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Oh definitely, I second your opinion on having a far more kinder father acting as a co-regent and mentor to Joanna in light of her inexperience when it came to governing such a realm as Castile. A million thanks to you for all your efforts and research when doing this video. Cheers!🥂

[@lv67890]

I grew up with stories of “Juana La Loca,” carrying her husband’s decomposing corpse around everywhere. Wow. I had no idea this was misogynistic propaganda.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's really sad, isn't it? I mean, you kind of expect ALL women in history to have some misogyny attached to them, but it was really shocking to learn of the real extent of the propaganda that was used against poor Juana.

[@user-fg9xz4bz3b]

Can't help but wonder how much her insanity stories were real and not slanderous.

[@bluehairandaxes8489]

wow, Ferdinand managed to hit an *epic* level of dirtbag behavior towards poor Joanna. Philip was an absolute bellend, but the fact that Ferdinand apparently knew that Joanna's jailer was beating her and didn't have an issue with it is dreadful.

[@selecttravelvacations7472]

He and Isabella used to beat her too. Even string the kids up by their hands and beating their feet til they were bloody. They were evil, even for their time.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It is shocking - somewhat more so in an odd way, than Charles and Philip's behaviour, as Ferdinand was a man who had raised Joanna. The lengths that were taken to keep her hidden away and submissive were horrific.

[@melenatorr]

@@selecttravelvacations7472 More than likely they did not, and this is addressed in the first part of this presentation. There is no contemporary gossip about this happening: it comes from a 1520 letter from Denia to Charles, as a way of justifying their behavior. As noted in the first part of this presentation, not only would it have been cruel to torture Juana, it would have been dynastically stupid: a royal female body was a valuable commodity, build for bearing heirs. To damage it would be wasteful. And there is a legend that when Isabel was informed that beating (an adult) Juana was a way to "cure" her, Isabel retorted that you don't treat royalty that way.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Actually, there's no evidence for the story of Isabella torturing their children except for one letter to Ferdinand - from Mosen Ferrer, the man who wanted to justify his own treatment of Joanna, funnily enough. I address this in Part 1, but basically there's no evidence of it beyond this one letter, and harming their children, even if Isabella hated them (and again, the evidence is to the contrary), would have been stupid as it would have risked there being no heirs to the thrones they would marry into. There's been a lot of accepted history around Joanna that wasn't really challenged until the mid-twentieth century, and even then slowly until recent years. It's a little bit like the myth that Marie Antoinette said "Let them eat cake!" when in fact, someone else said it when she was still a little girl living in Austria.

[@melenatorr]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople So true ... I'll add another person who's been mis-read and is slowly coming into her own: Anne Bronte, youngest of the Bronte sisters. Charlotte, in her memoirs and confidences to Mrs. Gaskell, flattened Anne's character, and under-rated Anne's writing. For generations, people have just followed that path, designating Anne as weak, pallid, relatively untalented and dull. No, no, no and no. Looking at her through more impartial lenses shows her to be spirited, sensitive, honest, hardworking, supportive and courageous.

[@melenatorr]

Thank you so much for this: it's the first online presentation on Juana I've listened to that looks at Juana as a coherent person failing against the forces against her. I do wonder how voluntary her final decisions in 1520/21 actually were, but I do agree that family was very important to her ... certainly more important than she was to them.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you for giving me the nudge a few videos ago by mentioning her name! I've wanted to do her story for some time, but needed a push as it's a hard one. As you say, by the 1520s it's hard to pick out what Juana really decided for herself. On a personal level, I had a lovely relative who allowed her children to take money from her in her old age, treat her like nothing, never come and see her unless they wanted something...she forgave everything they did or said because she had some guilt related to issues from when she and they were much younger. While it's a big leap, and only conjecture, Juana's actions reminded me of that somewhat - maybe of the guilt of not seeing her son since he was six, of not fighting more to free herself or escape, who knows what went through her mind in the long hours trapped inside two rooms? And so her one constant perhaps became family, that she could control their destiny by handing her crown to her own son. While I'm sure I'll get some people coming on and commenting that presenting Juana in this light is wrong, after looking at all the research (both old and new), she definitely came across to me as a naive young woman manipulated, mistreated and cast to one side, but definitely not as insane. I also think the lack of any power base for Juana is often overlooked - having support, especially in a royal position, was integral to holding your own regal authority. Elizabeth I of England is a good example of someone who grasped that fact fairly early on, even before her reign, and so always maintained that trustworthy group around herself.

[@melenatorr]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Agreed: and looking ahead a couple of centuries, Catherine the Great was another woman fortunate and canny enough to create and build on a firm foundation ... and fortunate that many people of influence feared and hated her husband's policies and outlook. Juana started and finished with too many cards stacked against her.

[@joelas87]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople the best biography about Juana i have ever seen; very documented with everything; facts and sources and not one sided; truly the best; this should be teaching material for history classes in the English speaking world; and get this; believe it or not everything about Juana in Spanish is pure and utter trash; i treasure this rendition dear; and this material should be dubbed to Spanish; so too can Spain learn whats historical accurate; everything in Spanish about her is pure garbage; we should be ashamed of ourselves in Spain for not making justice to Queen Juana like you have done so; this is not an exaggeration when i tell you i have not seen anything in Spanish or English for that matter; as detailed about this historical character; i would have seen it or come across somehow because i’m obsessed with this character; No source; new or old in our language is worthy of mention here; yours is simply brilliant; its a delight for us who love history; the quality and research process you devote to make some justice to the injustices and centuries long smear and propaganda; we appreciate all of your hard work lady and one thing i notice you always try to make a very balanced judgment about everyone; not just preconceived notions; i have watched all her documentaries in my native Spanish; books; movies; series; novels; and nothing relevant or worthy other than the already known propaganda; and you would think they would have master pieces like yours about Juana in Spanish; nope! not at all; quite the contrary; thats why i can absolutely tell you; your work is the most complete and historical accurate thus far; superb work🎉❤👏👏

[@leeannproctor2966]

Her father was an equal to henry viii as a dirtbag father.

[@EmilyGloeggler7984]

Henry VIII was also an adulterous reckless pig, but his brother in law and nephew are arguably worse.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

The phrase 'the best of a bad bunch' has never been so apt, definitely!

[@user-le4yd3dy2n]

Ferdinand of Aragon was a most horrible man. Juana should have ruled properly like her mother, Isabella of Castile.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Definitely! I think (given the way she played off both sides during the rebellion, despite being held where she was) Juana would have made a great queen. And to be honest, I wonder if that was part of her husband's and father's fears about her ruling, in regards to how she would have dampened their own power?

[@joelas87]

the best biography about Juana i have ever seen; very documented with everything; facts and sources and not one sided; truly the best; this should be teaching material for history classes in the English speaking world; and get this; believe it or not everything about Juana in Spanish is pure and utter trash; i treasure this rendition dear; and this material should be dubbed to Spanish; so too can Spain learn whats historical accurate; everything in Spanish about her is pure garbage; we should be ashamed of ourselves in Spain for not making justice to Queen Juana like you have done so; this is not an exaggeration when i tell you i have not seen anything in Spanish or English for that matter; as detailed about this historical character; i would have seen it or come across somehow because i’m obsessed with this character; No source; new or old in our language is worthy of mention here; yours is simply brilliant; its a delight for us who love history; the quality and research process you devote to make some justice to the injustices and centuries long smear and propaganda; we appreciate all of your hard work lady and one thing i notice you always try to make a very balanced judgment about everyone; not just preconceived notions; i have watched all her documentaries in my native Spanish; books; movies; series; novels; and nothing relevant or worthy other than the already known propaganda; and you would think they would have master pieces like yours about Juana in Spanish; nope! not at all; quite the contrary; thats why i can absolutely tell you; your work is the most complete and historical accurate thus far; superb work🎉❤👏👏

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you so much! I'm very humbled by how much you enjoyed the video. 😊 The books I have put in my description are the places to go to for more recent evidence on Juana, done by two ladies who have devoted themselves to years of research, but I'm not sure if they've been translated into Spanish. If they have, they are a fantastic resource for Juana's true life! And you're right in that I do try my best where I can to make a balanced judgement about people (not always possible, I know!), as people in everyday life always have good and bad in them, no-one is one-sided. There's always a reason for every decision made, and I think history is the finding of those reasons and presenting them with as little bias as possible. Thank you again for your lovely words - knowing my audience enjoys my videos is my main reason for creating even more content for you all.

[@joelas87]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople another one i really loved and also the best when it comes to not being bias; or echo the propaganda wad Mary I the unfairly called “bloody” you nailed that one

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@joelas87 Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed that one too! A lot of people took from that video (and the 'Elizabeth I was cruel' one) to mean I favoured Mary I over Elizabeth, when actually, I like them both for some things, and also intensely dislike other things they did. I definitely admire them both for being in the positions they were, though.

[@beth7935]

I'm surprised! I thought in her native country she'd either be admired, or at least seen sympathetically, & remembered more accurately. People do have huge misconceptions about their own history, but it seems odd that you've looked really hard for information on her, but you haven't found anything good in Spanish. I've seen 1 or 2 other videos in English that at least questioned her "madness", but I agree, this one is especially good, with all the details & contemporary sources.

[@beth7935]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople It _should_ be obvious that you're just addressing the way history already massively favours Good Queen Bess over Bloody Mary, by taking an unbiased look at the actual evidence of what they did & didn't do, but sadly some people can't- or won't- look beyond a wildly oversimplified "goodie vs. baddie" narrative... Like the ridiculous Ricardian propaganda against Margaret Beaufort & Henry VII, the example that annoys me the most.

[@xeronix9774]

poor joanna, she suffered too much and had such a sad life. she protected her family and her abusers at her own expense. they never even gave her a chance.

[@savagedarksider2147]

If her brother, John, had lived; this would never have matter.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

That's very true - or indeed, if her elder sister had lived, or even little Prince Manuel. Having said that, Joanna still would have been in a controlling relationship with her husband until he died...

[@savagedarksider2147]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople True, but he wouldn't have had as much power.

[@joelas87]

i can relate to the part about being scared to be a member of society in the outside world once again; i was able to survive thanks to the other person living at the property with me who was a family member and would provide for food and other things which the showering for me became unnecessary at some point; but i ate some days; some days i didn’t; went through a 6 year long depression that i only stayed locked in a house and would hide from friends and family who would come check on me to make sure i was ok; it does happen where you no longer feel confident enough to be around people and socialize its the mere thought of having to do so that makes it such a terrifying concept despite having learned how to interact when we are growing up as children with family and friends and at schools or otherwise; its like you feel you have lost all those skills and feel defeated; lucky for me i have a much happier ending still a struggle but one day at a time but it does make its mark on a person no question about it

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I'm sorry you had to go through that, but well done for coming out the other side of it. 💐 You're right in that mental health is so important, and little things can make such a big difference, such as being able to go outside and just talk to people. Every day you keep going is a success though! 😊

[@martagaines7272]

Bravo. An excellently portrayal of a highly abused woman with power. Control and abuse at it's worst. Very typical to point the finger at someone's sanity so as to take control. Thank you for this new light to viewing this Queen.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm pleased you enjoyed it! 😊

[@lfgifu296]

Goodness knows I hate Ferdinand! And Charles V too, ngl, but Ferdinand hits me the hardest…

[@melenatorr]

I include Philip in the mix, too.

[@lfgifu296]

@@melenatorrsurely! He was human garbage, but I talk here about Charles and Ferdinand because they’re family- Phillip was too, but it’s different, he was a husband from an arranged marriage, it wasn’t certain that he would be good to her, but her father and son- it’s a much stronger connection…

[@di3486]

Ferdinand was a formidable ruler.

[@lfgifu296]

@@di3486 Doesn’t mean he was a good person. I hate him as a person, he could still be a strong leader, which he was, but he did terrible things

[@melenatorr]

@@di3486 That he was, one of the canniest and most intelligent strategists of his time and of many others. And he seemed to have loved his children prior to their lives as adults. The monstrosity is his decision to sacrifice his position as father to his ambition and his efforts to corral Habsburg power in Castile. In "Castles and the Crown" Townsend Miller reports that when Fernando and Juana finally met after Philip's death, Fernando "astoundingly, burst into tears, perhaps at the change in her, perhaps at the thought of what he was about to do to her." Miller comments that the only other time Fernando was known to shed tears was when he had to basically push his grandson Fernando aside in favor of giving pretty much everything to little Fernando's brother, Charles. "Then the boy (little Fernando) will have very little," he's reported to have said.

[@lorifintel9784]

Wow, i never knew her true story obly that of her and her husbands coffin. Thank you

[@user-gc3zx3gx5v]

Denia was bad but Charles did not care about his mother but then Charles did not know or loved his mother for if he loved her, he would allow her to rule as she should have.

[@altinaykor364]

After knowing the entire details of this story, I kinda no longer feel sorry for the tragedies which Juana's children went through. Don't get me wrong! Ferdinand, Mary, Isabella and Catherine didn't do anything wrong and ironic how they were much more successful in their lives, even though Mary without a choice was dragged into her brother's stupid decisions and judged wrongly because of him. Ferdinand also became the successful branch of the family line for the next centuries. Charles and Eleanor on the other hand, Eleanor was handed to a husband who more or less, was as awful as her father Philip. and her daughter grow to dislike her. Charles who did all of these terrible things in order to keep his mother's throne to himself, abdicated a bit later, after she died😑in my head cannon, he did it because he was guilt-ridden, I mean, why fight and do all sorts of terrible things to the one who gave birth to you, only to gave it all up once she's dead and no longer a threat and pain in your eyes? Especially since there's a legend that says he had started to hallucinate in his final days and Juana was included in one of his illusions. well, I don't feel sorry for him honestly, just wish he can receive mercy for his immortal soul which he believed in. Philip II did very similar things to his son and maybe his suffering wasn't as long as Juana's but enough was enough, espeically for them to be too broken by the end of 16th century, losing their lands in the New World, Netherlands, no longer being the most powerful force in Europe. once of the examples in historical events that makes me believe in Karma

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

The thing you said about Charles feeling guilt-ridden was something that I thought about as well. When I was researching Juana, it became clear what he had participated in obviously weighed more heavily on him as the years went by, and abdicating was perhaps the only way he could help relieve himself of the guilt?

[@altinaykor364]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople I don't believe he started feeling guilt during his reign! maybe he started feeling bad and understand his mother a bit when his wife Isabella died! it's said that he took her portrait everywhere with him (people might have found it as sign of sadness and grief, love, what ever is it, but for me it's personally really weird and creepy) maybe he kinda understood Juana's pain at the time of Philip's death, but it was already too late to take a move on her and try to bond with her, since she had grown paranoid, distrust of everyone and Charles would've been the last person she wanted to see, which made him fear for her immortal soul as you point out in the video! after she died, he didn't abdicate to relief, it was more of a self-punishment, because he worked too hard and did so many terrible things for that crown and giving it up is like saying everything he did is worthless and nothing is worse than making your own efforts worthless! maybe he finally came to believe that what he fought for wasn't worth it. especially since abdicating didn't exactly helped him to be in peace. I mentioned his hallucinations in his last days.

[@georgiaholmes5199]

She never stood a chance to rule greatly yet alone at all

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

The cards really were stacked against her from the start! As I researched her more, I kept thinking 'it can't get any worse for her', but it was awful just how her experiences did exactly that.

[@user-gc3zx3gx5v]

At least, Charles treated his sister, Catalina well.

[@patriciaramsey5294]

👍💯

[@pinomiraglia8256]

💫💫💫💫💫

[@connorbradley3422]

Her and Britney Spears would have gotten along

[@di3486]

She was definitely coocoo, particularly after Philip died.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's true that later on Joanna definitely had depression, and likely paranoid, but that's hardly surprising considering how she was shut away. There certainly isn't any hard evidence to prove she had mental instability directly after Philip's death. There is, however, a lot of historical writing accepting the position of her madness, which itself was spread on what appears to be little more than manipulation, rumours, and clever spin by her husband and father.

[@di3486]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople and mental illness was prevalent in her family line.

[@anthonywarren9885]

She wasn't mad but she was stupid.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I mean, it's very simple to say that, but the truth could be more complicated than that. Women (and men, although it's to a lesser extent) in controlling relationships today are often turned against their family and better judgement by their partner or spouse, even when logic dictates otherwise. And as for going along with her father's wishes, she wasn't strong enough with no support to fight against him, and sadly, Joanna had no one in her corner for a variety of reasons. There were elements that today we wouldn't understand, such as in Queen Isabella's will when she stated that both Joanna and Philip should obey Ferdinand as their father, that will have been taken much more seriously than we now would. Years of being beaten and treated as she was meant that when some form of salvation came (in the form of the Comuneros), she could no longer trust anyone. Not to mention, her paranoia may not have been baseless - knowing her reputation, they may well have later decided to lock her away when she wasn't useful anymore; after all, she had already been shut away for decades by that point. Joanna made what were stupid decisions, but from a limited range of choices while she was backed against the wall. Her only focus was her family, and that's where she made the decision to protect their legacy.

[@kitkat2263]

She wasn't stupid. She was a victim of her circumstance and habitually victimized by the men in her life.

[@ShirleeKnott]

"Here's a comment is to help keep the algorithm monster fed.👑 It feeds on comments, replies and likes to both. Feed it and watch the channel grow!

[@rickheady2298]

Imprisoned by her power hungry father

[@veronicajade20]

Joanna was pretty dumb for not supporting those rebels. 😒

[@craigramage5022]

Thank you for sharing. Juana 15th.greatgrandauther Maureen Ramage