Why Karl Marx was a genius | Steve Keen and Lex Fridman

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Steve Keen: Marxism, C...
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GUEST BIO:
Steve Keen is a heterodox economist and author.
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[@sewersideproductions2606]

If Marx is soo smart, how come he’s dead?

[@JaspHov]

Hmmmm you could be onto something 🤔

[@sozzled3053]

your logic is sound and unwavering. Marx is dumb dumb.

[@theo4387]

Socialism and communism has fallen to 0% after this brilliant observation

[@thetruthoutside8423]

He is not dead, although he is not with us but he is all around us, if you pay attention, and as Richard Fayman said " knowledge is very costly you need to pay attention ".

[@zettelkastendev3760]

death goes where there is socialism. Life is where capitalism shines. If only old people would understand this more

[@1MinuteFlipDoc]

Economics is generally regarded as a social science, although some critics of the field argue that economics falls short of the definition of a science for a number of reasons, including a lack of testable hypotheses, lack of consensus, and inherent political overtones.

[@robinpage2730]

Evolutionary Economics helps put it on a more solid scientific foundation. We need a study of Evolutionary Political Economy.

[@juanmilano224]

science is not about consensus. Testing Hypothesis in social sciences(everything beyond hardware psychology) is done through watching history developing. You cant predict humans with a 100% certainty, its probabilistic. search this term "Methodological Dualism", theres an interesting rabbit hole for you, bro. Best wishes.

[@shabbaranks7968]

Lol stop

[@joechiari]

Absolutely correct!

[@robertprice9052]

You just wanted to post something but messed it up with this ridiculous retort.

[@audiofunkdialect]

I wish people they were interested in economics which we all should be would look more into general economic theory and listen to people from all different sides. Lex is the man.

[@Nobodynewduh]

If all of your theories put into practice turn into garbage then your ideas can’t be that great

[@maxsmith8196]

@Down with Corporate Amerika when was libertarianism tried? Maybe early USA but that wasn’t really a catastrophe either, but it probably wasn’t preferable. I agree that libertarianism probably doesnt work for a society, but i would love to know more about real life examples.

[@grimjim8463]

This guy just said there was no social hierarchy in cro-magnon days lol

[@ledernierutopiste]

The social hierarchy was different, it didn't depend on what you possess but on your ability to adapt and thrive inside the culture and human relationship of your tribe (a bit like high school, there was the cool kids and the weirdos). It's so different that saying that social hierarchy didn't exist is actually accurate.

[@Ak-yw9kf]

@@ledernierutopiste what? It was very much dependant on your class and specialisation. Hunter/gatherer/healer/shaman. Inherited position of chief. In most cases hunters were above in the class hierarchy. The son of the chieftain still had access to best food. It's just that number classes were less, so it appeared to have less inequality.

[@DanielOrtaM]

How is that relevant to anything else he said?

[@grimjim8463]

@@DanielOrtaM it literally underpins his whole argument

[@daniellemons23]

He added "as we know today." Which makes sense. He then explained that there are still social titles and differences.

[@noelsplectrum9]

He was smart enough to tap money from his friends and never pay them back.

[@erisgh0sted961]

Sounds like ...every politician ever.

[@nietzschefriend]

It's hilarious that conservatives get so pressed about Engels wanting to help support his friend lmao

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

Ayn Rand was hooked on methamphetamines and was collecting welfare when she died.

[@drrydog]

i think the point being made, was that Marx wasn't even capable of making money to feed his family, when the average man could. And he was the one to whine the most about it.@@nietzschefriend

[@nietzschefriend]

@@drrydog Marx was disabled with chronic health issues and busy with political organization. Stay mad that communists like Engels actually have empathy for their friends

[@LevelofClarity]

This is interesting to hear this explained this way.

[@KnivesOfTheRound]

Breath of fresh air to hear a intelligible understanding of Marx rather than the usual contrarian ranting akin to sports rivalries.

[@jonnybyrne989]

Well he was responsible for starving a couple of his kids to death.... But I'm sure he was a nice guy 🙄

[@ZiggyZoggy]

@@jonnybyrne989 every major thinker in history is responsible for starving a few kids by that rationale. Same is true of Nietzsche, Plato and so many other who were interpreted and then resulted in deaths. Communism can be blamed on Marx more than Nazism on Nietzsche or the Crusades on Christ, but let’s not go pinning all ideological deaths on the originator of the idea. Dangerous grounds.

[@sandollor]

@@jonnybyrne989 Categorically false. Look up the infant mortality rates in mid 19th century London and the diseases that befell him and his family. If you have an issue with his ideas then take the time to engage them, but this ad hominem doesn't lend any credence to your position.

[@jonnybyrne989]

@@sandollor he cheated on his wife an had a bunch of s.t.d's he came from a rich family an felt patronizingly guilty for it... I find it hilarious all socialist an communist thinkers are people who come from wealth telling poor people how to live.... His ideas were tryed over an over again in the 20 century which resulted in mass genocide... But I'm sure there are people still out there believing that communism hasn't been tryed the way they see it.... Also why wasn't there more people trying to escape to east Germany back in the day, as opposed to the other way around.... 🤔

[@bikingabunch]

Yeah no lol

[@Showmetheevidence-]

I do not claim in any way to be as smart as Steve Keen… but I was lucky enough to have 1/2 lecturers who told me “question everything” - and 1 in particular who said “question everything, especially what the university and the textbooks tell you. If you can test it or find e evidence for it, fine. But if not look for the truth on your own”.

[@henry1727]

hes an ideological communist also hes horrible at explaining utility because he doest even understand the definition

[@chanson8508]

Such an interesting convo 👌🏾

[@afgor1088]

i find it hard to believe this guy actually studied marx, the amount of basic errors any junior scholar of marx would never make is astounding. for example marx never said machinery didn't add value to a production process, that's complete nonsense

[@ovariantrolley2327]

Hes obviously enthusiastic and has read a lot but he also seems scatter brained. He goes all over the place and cant really explain one thing simply and clearly Id guess hes like a popular writer on economics or something?

[@miker2157]

Maybe he just didn't explain it correctly, but it seems like Keen has no understanding of Marginal Utility. He has mentioned nothing about ordinal preference but has talked about magnitudes of "utility". There is no cardinal magnitude of utility. Man can only choose one use over another. Value on the margins means when a unit of a good is lost, it's value becomes the next subjective use value of the good. Meaning a good's value is only the utility of the good at it's next lowest subjective value. Marx made this mistake in the 1st page of Das Kapital.

[@robfromvan]

Diminishing marginal utility just means you would be willing to pay less for the the next unit of the same good, regardless of what they are charging for it. This is because you get your fill of it and you are less interested in the next unit of it than the last.

[@bballchart8398]

This didn’t really explain why Marx was a genius as the title suggests.

[@gbennett58]

Because he wasn't.

[@deedsofdecapitation7477]

@@gbennett58 Pretty much this.

[@jordanroberts7931]

Ya I didn't even hit play. I came here to see all the bootlicker comments about Marxism.

[@browserboy1984]

@@jordanroberts7931 lol the irony has reached Marxist levels of stupid right here!

[@TheUnholyPosole]

@@jordanroberts7931 Karl Marx is the Che Guevara of the modern age.

[@bantix9902]

Das Kapital has a subtitle: "critique of the political economy". It's a critique of the field of economics as it was established and practiced during Marx time. Marx DOES NOT subscribe to the 'labor theory of value', it's Smith and Ricardo, whom Marx cites, who are proponents of that theory. Anyone saying Marx wants you to believe in labor theory of value has never studied Marx and can be dismissed on the topic of Marx immediately.

[@blackphillip564]

Marxists Dialectics is about class struggle. Not about the tense of a worker who has to work for a living clashing with his desire to eat ice cream on the beach.

[@ransomhefley1936]

It’s both! For Marx, the worker’s societal obligation to produce surplus value for the capitalist is in contrast with his other human drives. That detail helps explain why there is conflict between the two classes.

[@fastsavannah7684]

Actually, class struggle (today) is about the clash between the nature of exploitation (subject to subject) and the fact that, in order for a system to exploit everyone (not just workers) it needs individuals to truly identify with that nature. In our time, that is “the free subject” (weather he eats an ice cream or his boss’s, that’s free choice for ya).

[@GerardoHernandez-xt9hs]

thats class struggle too , the continuos existencial struggle of being both a human who needs time and money to enjoy life and a commodity of labor who needs to be exploited to the very last drop.

[@GodsCosmicBollock]

The problem I always have with listening to economists talk is the subjectivity and vagueness about every term they use.

[@Jackaroo.]

Because no one understands economics.

[@starman4840]

That’s what happens when you get people who know what they’re trying to say but are never asked to elaborate. That’s the game of commentators

[@thechosenoneforyou]

Streamer Destiny actually had a debate with a previous Lex guest Richard Wolfe, where the fundamental disagreement was on how Destiny didn’t believe Wolfe had a coherent definition for socialism

[@DrumsBah]

Go try read a graduate microeconomics textbook. Mainstream economics is very rigorous in its definitons; to the point of using set theory and real analysis as its building blocks. There's nothing vague about it. A common criticism is in fact the exact opposite.

[@quentinz6291]

because economics especially the marcoeconomics is all about (subjective) worldview

[@thetruthoutside8423]

Yes it applies to machines but machines doesn't creat the value and if what you said is true American corporate didn't move the production to China and also if you have machines all over the place and replace the labor of human they will not sale anything because the purchasing power would be impacted or it would cease to be. Marx was fully aware of the role of machines in capital processes and as far as I know he didn't make a mistake.

[@javibertolo1968]

Machines might have a bigger impact then before but there is still plenty of people needed in manifacture. Besides there is a huge % of population in service jobs: Cleaning, entertainment, banks, analytics, waiters... That have wages and still need to buy what factories produce

[@TheGiantMidget]

I think thats kinda the whole point of communism is that we no longer need money

[@dempsey2023]

Steve is a fan of the show

[@jonathanrabbitt]

One aspect that didn't seem to get traction is *why* people trade their productivity. What is the cost base of an hour of labor? Why does the taxation authorities think it is zero? If it is truly zero, what is the basis for overtime loadings after a certain time worked in a day? At some point, a worker no longer wants to exchange his time for wages, at any price, implying that the cost base exceeds the wage offered. In my commentary, cost base is somewhat analogous to Steve's background.

[@seanreynoldscs]

A redbox is able to convert 1 persons 8 hour labor into the operation of 100+ blockbuster stores running 24/7 365. Technology amplifies a persons utility. If we had a Value Added Tax then 1 Redbox would be paying as much tax as 1 Blockbuster, where as today they are paying 100 times less taxes due to the reduction in labor costs. One observation is that our government runs off of the tax on labor, but the GDP per unit of labor cost is amplifying with the technology curve. Technology allows unskilled labor to provide more and more value and a minimum wage can be more easily justified. Just some thoughts.

[@atianfirebolt8125]

Netflix spent close to $12 billion in content in 2020 while the most expensive subscription cost only $20. How much would it cost to rent every DVD in blockbuster? That's another thing to think about.

[@seanreynoldscs]

@@atianfirebolt8125 I completely agree. In capitalism nobody is taking your money or your labor, we give it freely. There is a reason that after the stimulus checks were cut apple and amazon got rich. They didn't hack into everyone's bank accounts and withdraw the money, people value apple and amazon products more than the money they had, so they exchanged it. Netflix adds value to the user, and they are able to distribute that value more efficiently than blockbuster ever could. That efficiency allows them to charge less, add more value and ultimately also make a ton of money in the process. Where capitalism falls short is in cronyism and anti-competitive behavior. This can also be found in the oligarchs of marxism. Another way to read this is humans are selfish and greedy. We need to make sure we encourage options and choices so that we can minimize the greed any human can exploit.

[@seanreynoldscs]

There is a lot of money to be made by innovating and creating new efficiency. Just look at the example with Netflix. That’s what we want to flourish. It’s the consolidation of companies and the purchasing of competitors that we want to avoid because that decreases a company’s likelihood of innovation. Why innovate if you can just buy anyone who comes along and threatens your market dominance.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

@@seanreynoldscs "There is a lot of money to be made by innovating and creating new efficiency." assuming there remains enough of a workforce to keep money circulating to purchase your innovation / automation? or do you believe the extremely wealthy 3% will keep the larger population afloat for their entertainment and produce a false economy?

[@Lambert7785]

arggh - reminds me of the 60's when you had all these brilliant minds communicating with each other, and the human beings listening to them trying to translate what they were saying into something that made sense to the non-mental aspects of human life - it's like we are regressing to a previous time... (imv) :)

[@amraceway]

No, not at all. You are wrong.

[@Lambert7785]

@@amraceway well, there you have it :)

[@redsix5165]

The only reason Marx is smart is that he convinced Engels to carry him financially most of his adult life

[@deanthechamp5669]

Can anyone tell me who wrote this line in one of his poems Thus Heaven I've forfeited, I know it full well.My soul, once true to God, Is chosen for Hell.

[@GhostOnTheHalfShell]

Rolls eyes over naïveté on traditional society exchange. LOL I like Keen, but he could really do with a course in anthropologies,

[@donatehilltop]

Imma try to get on this show in like 3 yrs

[@ForOrAgainstUs]

It's good to have goals. 👍

[@tmuxor]

If you won the genetic lottery of being Jewish you have a higher chance, going by his past guests.

[@miker2157]

Please read Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk's "Karl Marx and the Close of His System"

[@ConnectFork]

Imagine all the productive things you could do with your time instead of studying Marxist theory.

[@spencerbixby7819]

Studying Marxist theory or otherwise is quite productive, really.

[@tmuxor]

Studying it with a critical mind is not a waste of time.

[@TheUnholyPosole]

@Roberto Vidal Garcia People have been studying that dude for many decades, Marxism doesn't lead to liberation, it leads to economic collapse...which is why it's being pushed. The wealthy want to destroy everything so they can buy it up.

[@eruiluvatar236]

Studying anarcho-communist theory , right?

[@Farencio]

but studying Platoo, Aristotle, Séneca, Plotinus, Philo of Alexandria, pseudo Dionisio of Areopagita, Saint Augustine, Saint Thomas, Descartes, Hume, John Stuart Mill, John Locke, Berkeley, Leibniz, Wolf, Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Schopenhauer, Hegel, Nietzsche, Russel, Whitehead, Frégé, Husserl, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Quine, Foucault, Derrida, Deleuze, Lévinas, Marcuse, Adorno, etc etc etc isn't useful? even to understand the history of thought that are part of the actual common sense and we usually don't examine? knowing more o developing a good understanding of logic, politics, metaphysics, ontology, theology, ethics, history? Perhaps the mentioned could contradict your understanding of the world, but isn't a reason to cry or feeling that you're wasting your time because a couple of dead dude hurt your feelings.

[@user-pw3dt7hd7s]

When I talk to someone smarter and brilliant I make the same faces lex makes

[@hermanmelville3871]

He did the same thing when he first spoke to Danaher. Lex has an ego, and he doesn’t like when it’s challenged.

[@fractalnomics]

This guy is not brilliant. This is woo and he uses words to pad it.

[@silentstorm718]

Steve Keen, just like many post-Keynesians, use roundabout speech and flowery language to make it seem like they're smart. When you parse through what they're saying, you realize it's mostly nonsense.

[@reasonerenlightened2456]

Steve Keen is confused about Marx.

[@____blank____]

Nope. Because this guest is incapable of advancing our understanding of how the economic society works. Check out Milton Friedman and see the real world unfold with crystal clear explanations.

[@peterplotts1238]

None of these people ever talk about Marx's vision for the nuclear family. To Marx's credit, a vision his own family life contradicted utterly.

[@jazztheglass6139]

His family life was chaotic disaster. He couldn't afford to support them. He was a brothel creeper. Two of his daughters committed suicide. He had a illegitimate child with his unpaid housekeeper who he blamed Engels for fathering

[@jazztheglass6139]

@@carloandreaguilar5916 As a adult he ponced off his family, then her family, then Engels. Despite the money his daughter received, two of his daughters committed suicide. His illegitimate son was shunned and ignored. He was a frequent brothel customer in the times when 13 and 14 year old girls were bought to service patrons Engels had 2 factories, did he do any thing to improve the life of the workforce ? The pair of them were frauds and a curse to their families And virulent racists, forget to mention that

[@jazztheglass6139]

@@carloandreaguilar5916 He got his start in 1843. He treated the people closest to him appallingly. He was a pseudo intellectual, narcissistic fraud . His best mate, and co conspirator Engels did nothing to improve the lives of his workforce, some of whom were children working in his factories. He revered by the far left as a prophet and a patriarch. His ideology killed 100,000,000 people in a century. Enslaved, tortured and starved another half billion. Every country, in every society it's failed with catastrophic results His ideas are for fools, frauds, and failures

[@peterplotts1238]

@@jazztheglass6139 I'm probably the last person anyone would consider a defender of Karl Marx, but, He loved his children and Jenny Marx, his wife. He was emotionally shattered by the deaths of the four Marx children who didn't survive to adulthood. It's important to remember the humanity of these persons regardless of the harm their ideas have done.

[@DanielOrtaM]

@@jazztheglass6139 Are you trying to make a straw man ffrom Marx? xD

[@Matheusreisl]

I was an economics major and I know for a fact that most students that want to study more marxism after graduation do so just because you dont need to use math and statistics..

[@iancuninghame9163]

Ah so just like regular economics then

[@72marshflower15]

Save that math and stats are what proves the difference between hypothesis and theory..

[@sandollor]

So, you're telling us you went to university, and you form sentences like that?

[@Knightfall21]

if that were true, an equal amount of students would study Austrian economics. since that's not true, i sense that there's an idealogically component to their choice.

[@matthewevans3718]

Your telling me people take on extracurricular studying and pick to study something they don’t care about so it’s easier? Yeah I started a diet so I could eat burgers everyday, started working out just because I wanted to cheat reps too. I also bred my dog so I could give the puppies to the pound

[@jamesgraham4242]

14:30 What mistake? It can't apply equally to machinery. Who produces, operates and maintains the machinery? Labour. Marx is saying, in exchange the natural properties and qualities and the humanity of labour is extinguished in exchange. It has to do with their different conceptions of property. Marx sees specifically human properties....the booj sees exclusive private property rights in terms of their possession, ownership and control of the means of production. These relations are not "subjective." They're based on the power and control of the ruling class. That's a objective material fact. It's got nothing to do with individual ideas about price and value. That is powerless. The power of the ruling class is collective. They have the law and the armed forces to back them up.

[@kronus4915]

And what maintains the worker? Land, because workers have to eat. Now look we’re back to physiocratic economics….

[@jamesgraham4242]

@@kronus4915The "means of production" include land, labour and capital. In the development of industrial factory production for the mass market ALL of the factors of production have to be coordinated. The subsistence needs of labour have to be met or there's no workforce to employ. Land is everything that's on, under and over the land. Agriculture, forestry and fisheries were all industrialised into the bargain.

[@rajeevpurohit23]

Just a random observation: I wonder if most of YT commenters are so anti-socialism/Marx/capitalism that I can barely find a comment saying "Great discussion" "had some good points from the other side, even if i don't agree". The same comments that are super common in other Lex's videos. I hope that is not the case and YT comments are just mostly by people with certain views and like to hear only what they like

[@christopherkelly577]

Prodigy of mobb deep had an album entitled the Hegelian Dialectic...the cover was full of cool and somewhat ominous imagery and symbolism and he was very lyrical about the illuminati.

[@blackphillip564]

Prodigy also called it The Book of Revelation so he was all over the place. Typical semi illiterate conspiracy theorists nut

[@elirivera3880]

There's a war going on outside no man is safe from

[@End_oftherainbow]

I love your videos my dude I follow u on rumble too

[@CarelessOcelot]

Karl Marx, the greatest WMD the West has ever deployed against the East.

[@Captain_Kel]

That would actually be 2 bombs dropped on Japan, Agent Orange deployed in Vietnam, the drone strikes in the middle east, and many other acts of horror the west has inflicted on black and brown countries over the past 150 years. Capitalism is responsible for millions of deaths in the middle east alone in just the past 2 decades.

[@lastraven7205]

It's a mind virus that needs to be eradicated at all costs

[@iancuninghame9163]

?

[@_schonwald]

🙄

[@peterplotts1238]

And itself.

[@Seal-hs5il]

He pronounced Fichte wrong. In German you need to pronounce the "e" at the end., just like the "e" in Porsche.

[@jessebrittain4331]

Brilliant.

[@votpavel]

the problem is he got markss idea but he cant simplify it enough for us mortals.Teaching any subject and keeping it simple or entertaining is something rarely teachers can do,when you learn to teach or explain on oversimplified interesting level-you gonna be a badass

[@reasonerenlightened2456]

Steve Keen is confused about Marx.

[@aaronblain6377]

Look up Marx's 3 Laws of Motion in 30 Minutes Michael Roberts.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

Richard Wolff breaks it up and ignore those who have a finger in the Capitalist Pie

[@superheaton]

In Chinese history, it was very well known Marxism/Communism does not work for many certain industries, leading to starvation and lack of resources everywhere. It just didn't make sense to have a factory working 2 to 3 days of the week, producing just enough for consumption, in a fair distributed way, where people are paid nearly the same, so people abused powers and costs, ... many millions died, so in actuality, a lot of Chinese people in China dislike Communism. Today, administratively, China is like regional totalitarian, while their economy is pure capitalism mixed with socialism and "Chinese characteristics". "Chinese characteristics" simply means where state sponsored markets according to president XI's 5 year plans outlined. Any deeper subjects, is limited to my own personal lack of knowledge. For more, can try reading "China and the West" (2019) by H. R. McMaster, Michael Pillsbury, Kishore Mahbubani, Huiyao Wang. In my opinion, the biggest catalyst I believe the difference in western countries, is a 5 year plan or a 10 year plan, where all political parties can agree to uphold, instead of trashing the previous administration's plans when a new government gets elected. I also don't think it requires 5 years or 2 years for transgender pronouns. There are many other problems need to be fixed, such as more efficient logistics, faster transport high speed cargo trains, state to state energy utility transfer through batteries on edges of states interconnection, faster government services for people, distributed kiosks around cities where you can get birth certificates lost in one day, or tax papers in one day rather than 2 weeks, MRI machine is used a few times a week, while patients are waiting months for a scan, missing the golden window opportunity of diagnosis for screening, (similar to a factory only operating 2 days of the week versus busy all the weeks, then a maintenance period), better handling and severe punishments for corruptions (for example; offshore laundering, wall street stock manipulations, government spending reviews with transparency), sponsor and give full support to olympic athletes that are spending their everyday life to put their country's name on the board, etc.

[@LeonardoGPN]

China is definetly more socialist than the US is capitalist, most of the founding for research is made by the government, you have an enourmous military and constant interference in the economy. You are wrong in your definitions but I appreaciate that you took the time to discuss this in a serious optic.

[@RePzBoYz101]

God damn transvestites

[@LeonardoGPN]

@Danny Knapp there is no capitalist country in the world, you have widely diffused capitalist concepts and the same with socialism.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

@@LeonardoGPN if not capitalist then what are we living under?

[@alectronicmail]

Steve Keen is great, he’s giving it to you straight 👏

[@GodsCosmicBollock]

Is he?

[@spockks]

Lex is a smart people Rogan! 😊

[@yourdecentralizedreminder5623]

In India lots of people died of bad nicotine but our India government is highest share holders of India biggest tabacco company ITC. so they ban vaping not even other political group don't talk about it. Imagine how many individuals will save money

[@savantofillusions]

Is selfishness just desperation? No. Vice versa? Maybe.

[@genshishio9316]

Deep is indeed good.

[@davidgordon1981]

Marx is a must read for me now. Thanks.

[@dlobom]

Why is Lex cutting his own bangs?

[@TheUnholyPosole]

... inflation

[@hongkongchina2048]

Lex is SO slow once it comes to Economics theory. So do most physicists and biologists (most scientists)…. I find it fascinating…..

[@Kevin-Schmevin]

Background is all the lovemaking we do as humans... - Karl Marx

[@reasonerenlightened2456]

Steve Keen is confused about Marx.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

@@reasonerenlightened2456 confused about Marx but your not?

[@reasonerenlightened2456]

​@@GeorgeSorrow Marx was wrong about "Value". Marx had no solutions. I have the solution. it is called ' The system of optimal self-sustaining distribution of Wealth and the Power among the citizens and the Nations'.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

@@reasonerenlightened2456Please enlighten me?

[@reasonerenlightened2456]

@@GeorgeSorrow 1) The secret the Wealthy hide from the world is that The market is a free access problem and if you do not want the inevitable 'tragedy of the commons' scenarios on the market and the monopolies it consequently creates then you better ask for laws that set constraints to ensure tragedy of the commons does not happen. The market is a free access problem! 2) 3) etc. any more questions?

[@noahschmartz2354]

Surely if Steve was so smart he wouldnt leave Lex (and most of us) looking so perplexed all the time? As Einstein said : If you cant explain it to a four year old child , then you probably dont understand it yourself.

[@mikeydoes]

I'm not seeing why Marx is a genius. People like Lao Tzu are geniuses. Marx isn't a very smart man.

[@rabbitsforyang8273]

it's quite simple, if you treat people like they are disposable objects they will get pissed and start a revolution Lex has a hard time understanding that since he has yet to disassociate true entrepreneurship from crony capitalism

[@fuckamericanidiot]

@@rabbitsforyang8273 "if you treat people like they are disposable objects they will get pissed and start a revolution" - so people aren't currently being treated like disposable objects? What revolution?

[@mikeydoes]

@@rabbitsforyang8273 Marxism, and Marxist are the ones that want revolution.

[@rabbitsforyang8273]

@@fuckamericanidiot sure, but people are all intentionally divided and distracted, only works for a while though, which is why they are intent on starting a new Cold War and justify martial law

[@JSp8]

Shoutout kmart for their $2 back scratchers

[@bantix9902]

5:03 What? Has he not read critique of the Gotha programme?

[@KM-gy7fc]

Can we all agree that the Hagelian Dialectic is a rhetorical device for the purpose legitimising baseless claims.

[@t.m.mcwalto6075]

the most amazing thing I learned from this is the past tense form of leapfrog being "leptfrog". Blew my mind.

[@jakeflo8477]

"deep is good" - that's what she said!!!!!!!!

[@Dan.50]

From my understanding, Marxism applies to the workplace. So labor unions and cooperatives are what he was talking about. The problem I see is that there is less and less work to be done so it's not going to be applicable in the future.

[@spencerbixby7819]

I'm a union tradesman. There’s tons of work in the trades, everyone is short handed. Very lucrative and honest work. I've been trying to get young people on board with labor unions in the trades for 10 years. All of that work is never going away, and if it does we have much bigger problems... Workplace transformation (in certain applicable sectors, robotics for example) will only create more room for technicians.

[@srs6461]

I’m pretty sure this is where UBI comes from.

[@stvwds61]

The preferred outcome of productivity improvements is an increase of leisure time. What it has become is more profit for the company, executive pay increases and, shareholder return. The other side of the coin being stagnate wages, reduction of the middle class, reduced higher wage jobs in manufacturing, transition to a service based labor market resulting in less leisure(personal) time due to the necessity to work multiple jobs to survive.

[@zk9kz]

The first book of the capital is about production (including workplace), second book is about the circulation process of money. And the third book is on macro economy.

[@DanielOrtaM]

You couldn't be more wrong about Marx's philosphy.

[@dg-ov4cf]

anyone know what he means by "back when universities were democratic"?

[@GeorgeSorrow]

democratic when anyone could get access to university regardless of wealth

[@kevinclites7641]

To a certain extent, Steve thinks for himself. He is able to criticize abstract contradictions in what Marx believed. Yet he (and others) fail to challenge the major premises upon which communism is built.

[@mchlnhs]

accepting some of Marx' critique of capitalism doesn't make you a communist

[@kevinclites7641]

@@mchlnhs I agree.

[@ClarkPotter]

Because communism, with human solidarity and dignity as its base principle, is surely worse than capitalism, with selfishness, exploitation, and no regard of negative externalities as its core, must be opposed at all costs, lest we create a world that's good for everyone.

[@Hawaii567]

@@mchlnhs too many people are black and white thinkers. No depth at all to their thoughts it’s either this way or that way. That’s why I like listening to people like keen. Can explain the pros and cons of ideologies as unbiased as it’s possible for humans to be unbiased I suppose

[@Dontworryaboutanything]

@@ClarkPotter solidarity and dignity? Haha you mean misery and suffering Unicorns and lucky charms

[@kokwahtan8577]

Interesting !!

[@zacw812]

Lex you grew up in the USSR why is this even a question lol

[@matthewhrmich5350]

Because Marx's wide array of academic contributions and the political system of the USSR are not the same thing.

[@cfnaround1585]

He was such a genius, he knew how to completely use people and take them for everything g they had and do nothing in return

[@DanielOrtaM]

Is that actually true? Or just what you've been told?

[@cfnaround1585]

@@DanielOrtaM just read the story of his life. He lived off everyone else.

[@bradbell4022]

School - "from Greek skholē "spare time, leisure, rest, ease; idleness; that in which leisure is employed; learned discussion;""

[@davethomas543]

The blissful ignorance in this comment section is something really special

[@xDooksx]

That’s a stretch.

[@skuranimusic]

Love lex but his lack of basic economics is quite obvious here. The speaker goes on to discuss marginal utility and standard micro econ principles in order to discuss Marx and Lex clearly has a hard time grasping it. Labor in itself is treated as a commodity in basic economics and that is exactly what Marx is rebutting or rechallenging. If we can’t understand how labor is treated as a commodity we cannot understand marx.

[@hh-wh4qi]

labor is a commodity… what marx is saying is abstract and hard to understand in practice

[@peterehvert502]

Okay?

[@MarjanKjurinov]

This argument is missing the point completely. Before even discussing what "creates value", the basic problem is that communism relies on centralized power, which never works in terms of benefits for the wider population in a society, increasing quality of life, alleviating poverty, and such.

[@Xpistos510]

I'll give credit for at least arguing with ideas instead of the lazy ad hominems that other anti-Marxists lob. The problem with your rebuttal is that it's somewhat of a straw man. Marxism (at least, it's counterproposal to capitalism) isn't centralized control - at least not necessarily. It's about socialized (or democratic ownership) of the means of production. It's more about a democratic and egalitarian "bottom-up" economy than a top-down one. Centralized control, such as with the Soviet and eastern Socialist models, are but one alternative to capitalism, even though it's an awful and inhuman one. But centralization itself isn't what Marxism is per se. Centralization has more to do with statism consistent with a fascist philosophy. To say that leftism is "just centralization" is a Libertarian-right strawman of Marxism which completely disregards libertarian-leftism and anarcho-leftism. The end goal of socialism (communism) is supposed to be a moneyless, stateless, and agrarian society where workers own the machines and engage in somewhat of a barter system. It's more akin to anarchism than fascism. The social democrats and anarcho-communists have been trying to make this point for decades.

[@art-ificialblon-die7013]

He’s not talking about communism, but fundamental ideas of marx which he developed years after he wrote the communist manifesto. Dude was 30 when he wrote the manifesti, whereas das kapital came nearly two decades after that.

[@Ak-yw9kf]

@Red Genuinely curious. How that can be achieved without massive redistribution of wealth and coercive control after. Even if let's say everyone awaken "class consciousness" at the same time and decide to equally redistribute everything in a village such that 100 people have 100 gold coins and 100 acres of land. How would the socialised ownership work? Through voting? If 20 people want to grow corn and rest want to grow wheat. Do the 20 have to go with what rest want? Also how is the division of labour achieved in this context. If someone doesn't want to work but play flute all day, should the rest share in the fruits of the labour?

[@Captain_Kel]

Centralized power is the reason why China has the most impressive infrastructure in the entire world. America's lack expert planning is why most of the country lacks fundamentally necessary amenities such as transportation.

[@ConnectFork]

@@Xpistos510 “The social democrats and anarcho-communists have been trying to make this point for decades” …while simultaneously fighting for, and abusing as much power and control as they can muster. Lol

[@MengerMania]

Steve Keen, like Marx, has the ability to obfuscate simple concepts like utility and marginal utility. Utility exists entirely in the minds of the actors. A "chair" has utility as a place to sit, a doorstop, a decoration, etc. Each additional chair has (marginally) less utility than the previous chair at a point in time.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

Doesn't that apply with Money

[@MengerMania]

@@GeorgeSorrow Yes.

[@Zkullz69]

The biggest mooch in the universe.

[@nosecret3003]

Lex, you are lucky, there is an english translation of the three books “Das Kapital”. Read them, with colleagues at best, from the beginning to the end, and you will understand the method of the investigation of the economy as well as the laws of the system of the capitalist economy. There is no shortcut because the capitalist economic system is a complex system where every piece has its special function and is interconnected in a special way with the whole system. Marx mention this in the preface of the first volume.

[@cagribaba4464]

I find a hard time distinguishing Marxists from religious fanatics. No matter how many real world proves you give them about why his uthopia did not/can not work, Marxists will have their Holy Book(of mostly word salad) from a prophet who sucked money from other people(current day megachurch owners would be jealous of Marx).

[@aaronblain6377]

No royal road to science, folks. Maybe one should be suspicious of economic "theories" that are extremely simple -- especially if they happen to also be very bad at describing the world or predicting outcomes (like repeated economic crashes).

[@FerdarPleaseSubscribe]

@@aaronblain6377 Capital is far from simple

[@liamhackett513]

There is only one thing worse than being exploited in capitalism - not being exploited. Marx.

[@valdencorr2861]

This guy just made an argument for tribal societies NOT having a hierarchy? And he's a University professor? God help us all...

[@elmikatv]

How is that so that caveman didn’t have hierarchies?

[@x2mars]

I can’t make heads or tails of what he’s saying. I want to know how Marx would determine the price of a haircut.

[@GeorgeSorrow]

Referring to your comment "communism relies on centralized power" you only think this way because you believe the likes of CCP represent communism but if you read what actually is "communism" you would understand it is a set of principles that are nothing more than theory having never been enacted so communism hasn't ever been tested. The theory relies on an mutual sense of awareness to the extent whereby for example one of the many principle being "money" is worthless because there is no need to take possession, now we might not be able to conceive this idea but if you were to go back in time a few hundred years and try to describe the modern world, most couldn't envisage and would call you a crazy. Also you say centralized power doesn't work but what is our representative democracy if not centralized and controlled for the disproportionate benefit of a small minority while the majority are exploited, this is where socialism or more accurately put "direct democracy" is used starting in workplace, local community then moving to central government. Remember the small wealthy elites like their power and will use every means possible to miss inform and keep it!

[@georgeshealy5068]

Never would you find the level of intellectual curiosity, honesty, and integrity displayed here in the sophistry of Jordan Peterson and his colleagues regarding Marx and Marxism. I hope this clip finds more people and changes the dialogue.

[@MrZomBie775]

It seems like most of Marx's detractors view him as somehow being partially responsible for the horrors committed by some of the regimes throughout history who were inspired by his work. But very few think the same of Nietzsche who's theory of the Ubermench heavily influenced the tenants of Nazism.

[@georgeshealy5068]

@@MrZomBie775 sure. And I think for Marx that discussion is worth having. But critical engagement is productive and nuanced, trying to overcome the contradictions of thinkers/writers, not for dumbing down the discourse so daily wire will write you a cheque and Ben Shapiro will invite onto his pod. It’s pseudo intellectualism at best 😂

[@stevesop3324]

Blah blah blah, what a waste of time! Presenter is stoned. Guest is on another planet

[@seanreynoldscs]

Observation... in an established business such as Pepsi, there is very little that the CEO does and Marx seems to be more on point. However there is value to the risk of entrepreneurs and there is a value to the RND of ideas that outpaces the value of manufacturing labor of the final goods. What Marx falls short on how much value an individual can add to the creation of a product. As an engineer I used to believe engineers provided all of the value and I begrudged how much sales and marketing made. However as I've matured I've realized if a sales person can generate enough work for an entire engineering department then that sales person should make a lot of money because they are single-handedly provided so much value to all of those engineers... likewise if it takes 100 sales members to provided the work for the engineering department then they should each make much much less. The wage of an individual should be representative of the value they add, and capitalism is the best mechanism for that distribution. I believe that a great career finds itself a the intersection of: What the world needs, What you enjoy and What you are good at. If you maximize those you will have a high paying and satisfying job in a capitalistic economy.

[@seanreynoldscs]

@@Joe-sg9ll Sorry, didn't mean to minimize the value to leadership. The goal was to show that the further you get from risk (pepsi is well established and their market share changes very little) and ideas ( pepsi clear is a once in 20 year idea that ultimately was canceled and added little extra value) ; the further you get from that the less value the leadership generates and ultimately the workers add MOST if not all of the value in that industry.

[@seanreynoldscs]

@@Joe-sg9ll Also, my goal was to see and understand Marx' perspective and apply it in a modern example where I can agree with it so that I could highlight the difference between that and other industries so that I could show what Marx may have missed.

[@GBuaccc]

Hegelian Dialect, that’s that Prodigy album series he made before he passed away.

[@michaelcharlesthearchangel]

Hegel was the real genius, Marx attempted to assimilate Hegelian concepts under the platform of labor & narrative control. Hegel was more interested in the intuitive meaning of utopian paradigms and how government structures- language structures, by dialectic, provide proof for arguments that lead to civil development and change toward a human utopia-- the flowering and fruiting of human civilization(s) and human conscience.

[@neue01]

If Marx was such a genius then why did he struggle to understand value? If labor determines value then a painting by Jackson pollock should be far less valuable than an Aaron bushnell.

[@Brewmaster757]

Sounds like you're the one struggling to understand what he said

[@neue01]

@@Brewmaster757 Not at all. When we put malcontents on a pedestal we run into trouble.

[@NosyFella]

Artists exist outside of the economic relations Marx is describing. They do not operate within a capitalist mode of production. The high price tag on a Pollock is not determined by the cost of the materials or the labour time but by its perceived qualitative value to the culture. To pick that as an example to debunk Marx doesn't make sense, I mean, what percentage of the economy does "art" account for?

[@juanmilano224]

Ok would like to have the monopoly of selling ice cubes in antartica or of selling wine in a society of non-drinkers? Explain value as based on labor now, genius.

[@NosyFella]

@@juanmilano224 obviously no capitalist firm would establish a monopoly of ice in Antarctica because ice is so abundant there. What would be the point? Doesn't require any labour to produce it. Anyone can just scoop ice off the ground so it has no economic value.

[@itkojecockot]

the problem with economic ideologies is, that it's not enough to create a good economic system that works as it's designed to work...... it's also about how "bullet-proof" it is to human corruption, because corruption will always eventually happen in EVERY system...... and history showed us, that corruption in communist/socialist system has FAR MORE severe consequences for average citizen, than capitalism ever had...... it's like building a car...... a good car is the one which not only drives great, but also is relatively safe when you crash it....... and that's obviously NOT the case of Marx's economic ideology

[@Papa1P3RCY]

Watching this will hurt your brain.

[@CatalinFertu]

"All germans look the same to me" lol

[@Galland_]

funnily enough, all russians look exactly like him..

[@brownpatriot9390]

Did someone steal this guest's lips?

[@jamesbyerly766]

Whens the "why Marx was a dumbass" episode?

[@ryanogden5635]

The entire 20th century was an episode of that.

[@withnail-and-i]

He already had the bad thinker Yaron Brook for that. One can disagree with Marx's project, but those who say he was dumb don't even have a fraction of the guy's erudition, think of Jordan Peterson who had only read the communist manifesto as a teenager.

[@ryanogden5635]

@@withnail-and-i "Sophisticated thinker" is not an antonym for "dumbass". People have very sophisticated dumb thoughts all the time.

[@melissabakker2085]

@@withnail-and-i Bakunin predicted that Marx’s refusal to condemn violence for political reasons would lead to a lot of death. He was right. You choose whether its demonic or moronic

[@rlrogues3268]

@and Refering to the counter points on Marxism as "bad thinker" reveals your bias and refusal to consider both sides.

[@christoforos4126]

Almost none of those ideas were generated by Marx. A lot came from Engels but were otherwise generated by ghost writers and ghost philosophers from an international intelligentsia. Marx was a puppet for people like the Phillips family and the House of Windsor. As much as I appreciate any and all discussions, especially facilitated by Lex, this is a dumbing conversation. Marx wasn't much different than your average politician or Hollywood celebrity. He is a deification for the mass, long term dialectic confrontation. I should point out that my intentions for commenting this here is not solely to be critical but to merely add to the conversation because we're talking about a human being who is long gone, and none of us should place 100 percent judgement on someone who has passed that long ago. We all must share our knowledge. So I appreciate this video. But I must stress that Karl Marx is a nonsensical character in an economic military project for human domestication.

[@larryjenson4328]

Marx, worlds greatest economist dies broke.. He’s living proof people dislike success, for a guy with ideas, he under estimated the value of ideas, to the progress of implementing them outside in the real world. Where there is trade offs to all situations. This speaker didn’t do a great job explaining marginal analysis, which to be fair is not easy. But if he’s that educated you could do better than that. Food and water are extremely important to the life of humans, when a society is successful at trade, an surplus creating through the division of labor, food and water is cheaper than a luxury good like jewelry. If that same society has a drastic change due to an outside forces. Which effect the idea of a need over a want, the the price of the food goes way up. The margins are the cost of something at that time a place compared to the past and future. I’m not that smart but unlike Marx, atleast my stupidity won’t kill 100 million people in under a century🤷‍♂️

[@ivanpenkov]

You can easily tell that someone knows what they are talking about when they can explain it well even to a kid. In this case you can tell the person who was explaining was clueless :)

[@nuclearnadal9385]

I must be misunderstanding you. Surely you are not calling this brilliant man clueless.

[@Brewmaster757]

Maybe you're not as smart as a kid

[@theprinceofcrows8691]

Dunning Kruger effect is a real deal monster! It turns ego based superheroes into mere mortals in just seconds. If everything could be so easily explained we wouldn't need books, libraries, educational institutions etc. Good luck little buddy.

[@ivanpenkov]

@@nuclearnadal9385 "clueless" was an exaggeration. The man could be brilliant but he does not appears to understand this topic very well because he was unable to explain it well. Maybe the topic is too complicated but in most cases the simplest explanation is the correct one.

[@_schonwald]

@@ivanpenkov maybe you should stick to your “how to change a lightbulb” vids that you’ve uploaded 🤷‍♂️

[@Cbroods84]

algorithm

[@NosyFella]

I'm sure this will go over well with Lex's reactionary audience

[@waleednoor6590]

Amazing how he cultivated such an audience in the first place...perhaps inviting libertarian grifters regularly had something to do with it...but credit to Lex for presenting his audience a different perspective...

[@corbinhirschhorn9064]

I'm just realizing now what the Lex crowd is all about, and I'm disappointed.

[@JG-zs8tr]

6:59 To even establish a context in which to lay out Marx's ideas, he has to make wildly inept and subjective statements about "tribal culture". Marxism and related modern-day "critical" theories rely on complete fantasy to explain human history and behavior. Perhaps Marx had some interesting ideas. But I've never heard anyone, not even his most ardent followers, claim his ideas have predictive or explanatory power in real-world economies or relationships.

[@mcashnv]

@Down with Corporate Amerika Please tell us what specific evidence you have that our working class is more exploited than any other advanced nation?

[@TheDemoraI]

@Down with Corporate Amerika Your claims are all based on selfishness, and none of these are caused by capitalism. The reason most Americans can't take a month long vacation is because they are fiscally irresponsible, and I don't think it should be obligatory to pay for someone else's vacation when they aren't producing value during that time. Healthcare and education have been decimated by government meddling. Administrative staff have increased exponentially alongside increased public spending in both of these fields. In order to end capitalism then you would have to use government coercion and force to restrict private employment. This would result in mass incarceration, and lower quality of life for everyone but those with legislative power.

[@TheDemoraI]

@@henryrollins9177 So, would you say that your quality of life is greater in Argentina than the average American?

[@TheCommonS3Nse]

Check out the economic theories of Anwar Shaikh. He took an engineering approach to economics, starting from the observed data and working back to see which economic models best predicted the real world data. He ended up at a foundation of Marx, Smith and Ricardo. Many of their original insights still predict our economy better than any modern economic theories.

[@09gosha]

Hmm, I guess that's why he was munching on other dude's leftovers for half his life, eh?

[@shake6321]

I am into Austrian econ (decentralized econ) but i still have a lot of respect for Steve Keen since he makes some very valid points regarding the fact that humans cannot consume if they run out of materials. I also respect marx as a philosopher who makes you "think" but Marx is very wrong about a lot of things. Even in this discussion they never addressed the fact that people "work" for others because it is more productive than working for yourself. in essence, the capitalist makes better use of the commodity that is labor than the individual can do for themselves.

[@mikeyfreeman5776]

Marx praises capitalism for the rapid production and growth that it’s capable of so in that sense I guess it uses labor more efficiently but at the cost of ethics.

[@drsan7754]

@@mikeyfreeman5776 at the cost of ethics.

[@jurrasicgrant2307]

Marx never said people should work for themselves but rather he talked about democratising the workspace, decisions regarding what to produce, how to produce and how much to produce should be taken democratically not just by the ones who own the means of production. He historically analysed the accumulation of large sums of capital and why it was unethical and filled with inherent contradictions. Marx was not god, he was wrong about things but so was Einstein. Marxism is not a stagnant tradition where everything written by Marx is the holy gospel but rather a continuous tradition. Best critiques of Marx are Marxists themselves.

[@shake6321]

@@mikeyfreeman5776 what ethical issues? what is wrong about people choosing to work for others if it is more efficient than working for themselves?

[@shake6321]

@@jurrasicgrant2307 democratically owning a firm is very inefficient. moreover, it makes no sense for someone to start a firm and then hand over shares to their employees. why would capital take all the risk AND then lose all the reward by giving away equity to workers who take zero risk?

[@tomedward8652]

Jeez, glad this guy wasn’t my teacher at Uni. Very bad at explaining what is essentially VERY simple theories.

[@karlikuris]

Bunch of BS

[@deedsofdecapitation7477]

"Gibs me dat for free" ~ Karl Marx. A true visionary.

[@Artfulscience1]

Coming from Soviet Russia and having recently visited the wasteland that Ukraine has become, doesn’t it kind of hurt to listen to this? Lex?

[@yahqappu74]

With objective materialism for his work Marx is the greatest fool...

[@bantix9902]

I don't believe he read all of Marx works, if he did, just every 10th page or so

[@rjw4102]

but why male models?