Why LISA the Joyful is a Joyless Experience Worth Playing

[@Nomadthejester]

Babe wake up new rubric vid

[@mipywomp]

Actually, the reason buddy is turning into a mutant is because during the events of painful shes already taken Joy.

[@larubric]

I had an inkling this was the case but I think it's also terribly disjointed. Something that is meant to be the pivotal moment for the character originates from one small line in a separate game? Really lame. Could have had a similar scene like Brad being force-fed Joy.

[@ekSil0]

@@larubric In Marty's house, she comments on how the little blue pills taste and that they make you feel good. It could imply that she has tried them before, but that is the only time as far as I'm aware.

[@angelb9592]

@@larubric you only need to take Joy once to transform, the probabilities may increase or decrease depending on the person, but for example, Olan the archer took joy once (offered by Brad on a campfire) and then abandons the gang, you can find him on top of the first bar turned into a Joy mutant. Same goes with Buddy and Brad, even if you dont make them take it, story wise they did, Brad was hooked to it before deciding to stop and Buddy took them at least once because she knew how it tastes and how make you feel

[@aidencalhoun4893]

​@@angelb9592Plus, it also didn't help when Buzzo forced Brad to have joy.

[@yungmuney5903]

​@@larubric Wdym? Shit like that is RAMPANT in Lisa, it makes you pay good attention.

[@outlier9099]

To try to atleast justify why joyful is such a mixed experience, heres what i can remember from wiki perusals and Twitter scrolls. (Dont take my word for it, do your research) 1) the game was a kickstarter stretch goal that Dingaling has gone on to state he didnt want to do nor expected to do. It promised to answer all the questions about the series and who buddy is while also telling a compelling story about her; a big ask for a single developer. 2) During Joyful's development, Dingaling lost his father, who he loved dearly. Its why he briefly changed his developer name to LovesBradGames: Brad was the name of his father. 3) Austin has stated he hates writing for Buddy, so a whole game soley focused on her would be... frustrating. Austin was making something he was obligated to do, for a character he has trouble writing for, all while mourning the loss of his father. To say the very least, no wonder it turned out the way it did. Just look at Painful's steam page compared to Joyful's: "A life ruining experience" to "Buddy can dash, use timed attacks!" However, if Joyful left a general sour taste in your mouth, might i suggest the fangames? Probs got asked this already, but there are some genuinely quality stuff.

[@aqualitymeme9476]

@Goatpuke Bruh.

[@FormerlyAdGuy]

@GoatpukeSeriously? You really expect a grieving man who just lost his father to hit a fucking homer just because it's convenient to your viewpoint on how creative media is made?

[@skeletonbuyingpealts7134]

LISA: The Undone is kino

[@izurukamukura9095]

I've been playing through LISA: The Hopeful, and I have to say I've REALLY been moving the game. The main characters are such a likeable group of friends, and I look forward to seeing them grow throughout the game.

[@babyjail2816]

So, here's the thing about Buddy's mutation. The original explanation was actually a shining example of gameplay serving as the narrative reason. In the initial run of the game, Buddy did not have access to "Mend" at all. There was no hidden easy mode, jerky was scarce, and fights were intentionally balanced around joy consumption. It was simply a requirement to survive and maintain enough damage output to pass these battles. There was no such thing as a joyless run, and to abstain meant you simply couldn't progress. This is why Buddy mutates. The difficulty of the game without joy as your primary method to progress difficult battles prompted an outpouring of negativity from Steam users and the hidden Easy Mode was patched in, along with Larry Tintz' gag and the "Mend" skill. His resentful dialogue is a direct response to everyone ranting about how impossible the game was to beat, and he directly taunts the player for not wanting to take Joy in this dialogue.

[@larubric]

This is interesting. Still, this quintessentially comes down to trying to revolve a game like LISA around one-party fights. I think if you had access to a full squad of Buddy and 3 of Randos soldiers or something similar, that could have retained some semblance of coordinated play whilst not having to facilitate a massive roster like in Painful. I genuinely believe so many of Joyful's problems originate from this small change, both narratively and mechanically, across the original and remaster. Also, again, Painful made joy something difficult to initially refuse but ultimately something you could progress without. Joyful virtually forcing you to take it in the original is marginally better for involving the player - at least they themselves are opting to take it, making the mutation moment more significant - but seems kind of lame by comparison. Where's the choice when one option is that you just can't play the game?

[@SwaggyG_2102]

One of my favorite aspects of Lisa the Joyful is how HARD some of the songs are. Mouth Wide Open and 666 Triple Chop Deluxe are some of my favorite Lisa songs. (He's My Dad drove me to actual tears...)

[@luigisupermariobrothers]

i think the reason buddy randomly becomes a joy mutant is because in painful, when you see marty asking buddy about why she has joy, she says "someone gave them to me... they don't taste good. but they make you feel good..." so she probably took joy at some point in painful. you also see her with 3 joy pills on the ground at the end of painful and the start of joyful

[@larubric]

I had an inkling this was the case but I think it's also terribly disjointed. Something that is meant to be the pivotal moment for the character originates from one small line in a separate game? Really lame. Could have had a similar scene like Brad being force-fed Joy

[@luigisupermariobrothers]

@@larubric honestly agree, joyful as a whole felt so disjointed and, kind of rushed in my opinion sadly. so many places it could have gone that would have been so much better. it feels like any time austin touches joyful his storytelling talent is just nullified. painful and it's DE additions were amazing but joyful was just kind of okay, even with DE. funny enough, the only parts i really liked were the parts where brad was involved, like the epilogue for the DE ending and the "fight" with brad near the end.

[@csrjjsmp]

@@larubricher being forced to take joy would contradict the theme of the game which is that the “lessons” of painful were wrong. That aspect of the game only really works when the player chooses to use the Joy, which the game forces you to do through difficulty

[@fatherofthepigeons2854]

Although I love joyful, one of my mayor complaints is that buddy went from this innocent little girl who needs protecting to this insane badass who takes down warlords and groups of people all by herself. I really think a short timeskip should have happened to establish that buddy has now drastically changed living in this world alone now, and maybe also age her up a little as well to make it more believable that she is as strong as she is.

[@csrjjsmp]

She wasnt an innocent girl who needs protecting, that was how Brad thought of her and he was wrong. Buddy said as much in Painful but since the game is form Brads perspective most people just assume she was naive and wrong until Joyful proves she wasn’t

[@skeletonbuyingpealts7134]

Didn't Buddy kill that guy in Brads house, the one with the rusty knife in him

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@skeletonbuyingpealts7134 yeah its implied but not outright stated that a lot of the dead men you find on the way were killed by buddy

[@LotusGramarye]

I appreciate this video. Ive played Joyful thrice. Twice when it first came out, to ensure i got any/all possible endings, and once just recently finished for mt wife, and i loved it each time. But i am also a rabid goblin whose brain is stimulated when timing go good. And the sheer mindless droning on of the combat combined with the blaring eventually droning music has always to me felt like an emulation of what Buddy is going through. Is it still bad and simplified design compared to painful? Yes. Does it still work for the most part? Yes. Also toy absolutely needed the Joy with the original release of Joyful. No longer the case but with the orignal release you needed it to possibly stand a chance. And being forced to chokeslam joy like Buddy would have had to felt pointed.

[@gonzaloibarra9007]

Painful was one of the best things I experienced in the medium, It did so many thing rights that It's one of the few games that my words are only of praise, to me is probably what I consider a perfect videogame and what it should be aspired with the medium. Joyful might have left lukewarm feelings in me, It has few brilliant moments, but they don't feel enough to justify the experience. I enjoyed it the first time I played it, and I probably beated it like 2 times, and painful like 5 without counting the people I forced to play the game and watched their playthrough. I have a soft spot, for parent-child relationships, and Brad made me remember of my parents. it put a new perspective in ton of stuff not only about the medium, but also for my life. Joyful to me feels necessary, but it's a game that didn't have an identity at all, neither worth outside of it's links to a brilliant game. But definitive edition kind of turned things around for me. Not only made painful better, and once again broke me. but it inserted a motif that wasn't around outside of the first game (which I don't like that much) which is the mother motif, and breaking the cycle of generational trauma and violence. They're common in disfunctional families, but it's also common not knowing better because of what people grow accustomed. The mother motif, represents to me breaking this cycle, leaving everything behind and seeking for solace and growth. New ending in joyful, being so focused on this motif, and being like the first game (typical yume nikki shit that you have to do absurdly specific stuff to get certain special items to reach a revelation, good ol' rpg maker roots) with this big puzzle and also gave one of the few good fights in the game. I don't want to spoil that much mainly because it would take me so much time, I can talk for hours about this game. To me joyful in actuality is kind of poetic, I don't feel like it's a hollow game anymore, the structure of a great game is there, but it embraces the flaws of the first game, and it's flaws too. And i'm contempt, because there's a better ending for buddy and the trilogy as a whole. new stuff to me gives joyful an identity, a meaning outside of being just the continuation of painful and brad buddy relationship, it's about a ruined family, and it shows that it's up to us to break this generational trauma and cycle. It's a flawed game with good ideas, those that stick with people and encourage them for something better. To me the dad fight, new stuff, new ending in joyful. Finally felt that Austin said everything he wanted, as flawed as it was. I cannot help to feel profound respect, empathy for him. It left a good taste, it was a shame that you didn't talk about the new stuff, to me it was the most meaningful part of joyful, maybe because Austin did it without forcing himself but who knows, he also messed up a bunch of stuff with it, such a weird case. Good video, Loved both it was nice to see a good video that left me thinking stuff outside of hbomberguy's one and my own opinions about it. If you did the new stuff in joyful and you have time I'd really like to hear your thoughts!

[@larubric]

Hey Gonzalo! I appreciate the time taken to write this comment, thank you for your insight. I do think the new editions take some form of focus on the ‘mother’, ironically the name of the game that inspired LISA, and how the father is brutal and punishing whilst the mother is nurturing and sensitive. It actually may even be a subtle exploration of gender roles in regards to parenting and how Brad is trying to embody stereotypically feminine characteristics to be a good dad, especially with the dialogue on him trying on his mother’s makeup and dresses. It’s a very intriguing thing to look at and, honestly, is a miraculously refreshing perspective for a game made during an era where transphobic humour was even more rampant than now. I didn’t peer at the extra stuff in Joyful because, well, it wasn’t good enough to warrant going back. Playing back through Painful a second time on stream was extremely fun even when I already knew what was happening because the fundamental game structure - the party compositions and roster management - made it really fun mechanically and acted as the gateway to engage with the story. I’d really recommend watching the Painful essay if you haven’t, I fully explore how great this is - especially the extra bits added and how much I love them. But because Joyful is fundamentally centred around a single party member, the combat is inherently not that fun or interesting as the predecessor and that’s really gonna hamper my will to continue with a story that’s already not that great in comparison to Painful. I love video games as narrative media but, ultimately, the game aspect matters a lot and in Joyful it just wasn’t that joyful lol. Again thank you for taking the time to comment and I do hope you check out the Painful video essay!

[@gonzaloibarra9007]

​@@larubric It's a completely valid perspective and I do agree totally with you, Joyful is not fun outside of one battle (the one with all the warlords and being carried by the dad fight) (neither is fun doing the yume nikki stuff) even so, I do feel that the new stuff is essential to joyful's identity and rounded up what it's purpose even considering with the glaring flaws it carried and the way it was delivered. Obviously this comes from the perspective of someone who has a big bias towards the game, not joyful but I do think my biases make me tolerate joyful a lot more only because its existence is linked with painful and connected to it. Thank you for answering, didn't expect that (youtube sent me a notification). I do recommend rather than playing just watching for the pieces extra of dialogue, it will not be worth it doing it just for that, i couldn't find anybody to talk about it to compare it outside of my own biases towards it.

[@blondieanon]

Halfway through the video, Mend wasn't initially part of Buddy's moveset when Joyful first released. That must've been an update addition. Originally, you'd have so few healing items that you would inevitably have to start taking Joy by the handful to keep her alive. It also fit thematically because she's popping these things like skittles and slaughtering men that she has no right standing up to. It fits very well with the ending of even her becoming a joy mutant because her entire goal-her fixation-is to be the best and rule. And she can.

[@larubric]

I find the change for the definitive edition so bizarre. I've heard many people say Joyful was ridiculously difficult and that because a lot of people reasonably assumed you could beat the game without Joy, Dingaling had to leave signs telling them to take it. Thematically it works and it then accounts for the agency of the player to then make their addiction to the substance the crux of Buddy's choice at the end. I do still have reservations considering the fundamentals of the game - there is very little fun to be had in a game where it's just a back-and-forth of boring punches with none of the exciting party composition choices or the comboing of attacks like Brad. Ultimately it's the fact you have no other party members that led to the introduction of Mend and gave rise to this gameplay loop of spamming it until the enemy misses and you can swing back. That being said, it sounds like the original would have - at the very least - been more satisfying in providing a challenge rather than the ludonarrative dissonance of a cake walk. Thank you for the comment!

[@blondieanon]

To play devil's advocate, I'd be willing to say that it being boring or monotonous is also on purpose to an extent. Brad's journey through Olathe was full of dipshittery and complete bumbling around into danger, fun and friends. Buddy is so single-minded and joyless that nothing in life exists outside of wanting to be the best. But that could be copium too. I'm stained with the experience of the first Drakengard and that is also incredibly monotonous with weapon grinding and killing thousands upon thousands of people. I really wonder if there's a way you can download an older copy of the game. I think I got a copy of it emailed to me way back when the game first came out via Kickstarter. Buddy has maybe three or four stab skills, Flash, and then nothing but what few food and drinks you can obtain. And a shit ton of drugs. Made me think of Hit Girl from the second Kick Ass movie when she gets stabbed with that adrenaline pen.

[@Mint.Coffee]

Hello again, hoho! Small corrections >If you do not kill the bartender and instead exclusively interact with him whilst wearing a mask, you never run out of shops. He continues selling stuff and buying them. A real criticism here is that you have no way to generate money, since all encounters are finite, and the items he sells are mostly garbage in comparison to Mend anyway. >Although Buddy does not take joy during gameplay, she still mutates because she took joy during The Painful, confirmed as she tells Marty "they taste funny" when he asks her what the pills are. A good criticism here is that it doesnt matter whether you take it or not before the definitive version, both endings would still play the exact same way. The definitive version remedies this by adding the flower ending. >Buzzo did not have the vaccine, that was Yado. The man that made joy. Makes sense hed have made a cure for himself... A more solid criticism is that holy hell that's stupid and dumb, removing the consequences of the players actions pre-flower ending. >the pacifist fight prompt is mostly a way to show the player how violent Buddy grew up to be, having to constantly hold herself from killing people, added by the fact she has dialogue where she just doesnt comprehend what pacifism even is. The real criticism is that it's already well established how insane she is, and that holy hell that prompt is annoying. At least they make it easy to grind for the items for the flower ending. Still a good video dont get me wrong, the joyful is a MASSIVE step down from The Painful, I just thought I'd correct a couple things, since I'm the rare person that likes Joyful. A step down from near perfection is still pretty alright!

[@larubric]

Thanks for the notes! I understood what the Pacifist fight was conveying but, again, it's so different from how the player is feeling/what the player is motivated to do at that moment that it's a really bad scene (not to mention extremely heavy handed). Also the fact Buddy's potential mutation - something that's meant to be a pivotal character moment for her - relies on a short line from another separate game is pretty bad.

[@SlugOnTub]

​@@larubric joyful is not about the player, i felt disconected from buddy a big while, it did not stump my enjoyment of the game, as i saw this wasn't a story you were meant to relate to, it's a proof of concept that: being raised by shitty people makes you also shitty, it's not what the player would do. it's what buddy would do, there's an obvious disconnect also: joyful is meant to be played by people who played painful, so much so it's not a diferent game, it's a dlc. and even thought it's a short line, it was impactful, at least for me, who did a joyless run, on my first go round. seeing buddy talk about takign joy was surprising, and stuck with me, i even wondered if that's why joyful has that name

[@hmdv.]

The game may be unfun, but the ending genuinely directly led to a better relationship with my father and I will cherish it dearly =)

[@EttieSakura]

Waiting on your OFF video! 🥺

[@semaj35]

no, i didn't expect to see you so soon but it makes me very very happy

[@GeaForce]

They could have turned the warlords into playable characters. Heck, what if every time you defeat one of them you get the choice to kill him (and get his warlord skill) or force him to join your party. This could lead to two different paths: a stronger warrior who can fend off only by herself. Or some badass leader who rallies the Warlords to get revenge on Yado

[@zainy_inc154]

Great vid man. I kinda hope we still get some more Lisa content in some shape or form

[@izurukamukura9095]

I think what really annoyed *me* the most about Joyful (aside from Buddy being an unlikeable main character) is that there weren't any collectable party members. The beginning was at least a little interesting since we had Rando, but come on, halfway through the game and we lose him with nobody else to recruit? It seriously pisses me off because Tooley SCREAMS optional party member, but instead he just kills himself after buddy calls him useless to her (in typical Buddy Is Unlikeable fashion). Like, what if there was a segment at the start of the game where we travel with Buzzo for a while, or after you collect the joy mask one of his guys tags along? There's a good bit of potential that just isn't used. Also, what Buddy did to Rando was absolutely vile. I already hated her as a character, but that scene only made me want to stop playing Joyful altogether.

[@thekingbirdop1533]

I know I'm a year late to this video, but I recently got done with Lisa the Undone, a fanmade that reimagines Joyful and its honestly wonderful. There are a million Lisa fangames with varying quality but this one feels very special, and I wanted to recommend it. It's got great music, unique gameplay mechanics and it actually made me care for buddy. I don't want to sound like an add, but I just wanted to recommend this to someone cause no one I know has even heard of Lisa. Undone is a gem. Anyways, good luck

[@rainyjay8156]

just found your channel and your vids are wonderful. Really good commentary and explaining . Looking forward to more. Thank you:)

[@generalfletch7043]

Just found your channel and I gotta say I like it! Glad I found you :)

[@PIMKAMINA2]

theres some positives here but its bery telling when the best praise you can give a game is 'it made me appreciate the other one more'

[@flaco3462]

lol exactly

[@thekateykat]

aktually, nern's sp healing move gives more sp then it uses and his heal usually heals more then the damage you take late game. the moment you have nern in the late game, nothing's a threat. I'd know, I played on painful difficulty on my first playthrough with no prier knowledge.

[@RevenantNeverDies]

infinite mags glitch

[@kyaksachan502]

I'm always get surprised how many people didn't exploit Nern + Tutorial guy. They make you team practically unstoppable and when it came to sacrificing character, I'd switched my main teammate with the less used ones. I feel like the final part of the game where the cheese could not be found became the most difficult experience for me.

[@Cranes_Friendly_Fire]

Fighting Rando at the end of Painful was harder than fighting Satan just because of the broken Nern + Birdie + Terry party. Even on pain mode.

[@Im_Tessa]

erm, if you want joy just take the drug?!?!? 👩👈

[@Glassandcandy]

After diligently playing this, darkwood and pathologic i think I’ve found the genre I like the most in games is “games that treat you like a piece of garbage”

[@csrjjsmp]

It really does seem like men who enpathize heavily with Brad struggle to relate to Buddy since doing that means understanding and internalizing how wrong Brad was. Actually in the painful video mr rubric appeared to understand that Brad thought the world was worse than it actually was due to his trauma, and intellectually understands some of the ways buddy is right, but apparently that wasn’t enough to make the leap. Probably you had to already be feeling this way in painful. At least we can all agree that the music is still incredible

[@larubric]

I've been reading this comment over and over and I still don't quite understand. Do you mean that Buddy being a girl hampered my sympathy for her while Brad being a man made him more sympathetic? Genuinely intrigued, didn't catch this.

[@csrjjsmp]

@@larubric It probably doesn’t help but it’s just one factor. Whether you play through the game yourself vs watching someone else do it might also affect the degree to which you empathize with Brad, for instance. Not that it’s a bad thing to do so. Brad is the protagonist, you’re supposed to empathize with him. It’s just that his viewpoint is so directly contradictory to buddy’s that moving on to joyful is a sharp turn and the more momentum you have the harder it is to steer.

[@panos21sonic]

14:20 god I did that fight with buddy alone and goddamn it mustve taken around 20 minutes. Absolute hell.

[@megamike15]

i can never tell if me feeling numb to the combat by the end of joyful is more a reaction to the stoy or the gameplay.

[@BunchONanners]

It really hurts me to see this, because I agree with so much but I also love Joyful unconditionally. The Rando and Brad hallucination fights, the Buzzo dream sequences, Buzzo's death, the ending. I felt like Joyful was the perfect end to everything in LISA, at least conceptually. Joyful has such clearly strong roots- such a beautifully rich thematic story- but it's a fucking mess that leaves so much half done or underbaked. Joyful is a complete mess but I just can't help but love it.

[@EquinFrost]

Joyful shouldve been about rando taking up buddy and dealing with her constant rash decisions, being forced to help her do such dark things because he couldn’t stop her without being pushed away

[@safetyboots]

There's the context of Joyful being a stretch goal of Painful's Kickstarter. My guess is that Dingaling didn't have the same time and/or motivation to tell Buddy's story, that Painful was a finished work that didn't need a continuation, which led to all the flaws in Joyful. Furthermore, in the original Joyful Buddy only had stab skills and had to heavily rely on limited items and joy. You can even find graffiti through the game urging you to use joy. People complained about the difficulty and the support skills were added, then Buddy got warlord skills in the Definitive Edition. In the original Joyful you had to use joy or get softlocked and start again. That 12 year old, as you put it, was on a joy induced rush, quickly becoming the biggest monster around and massacring everything on her path, not unlike her father. Unfortunately, making the game less frustrating made the story dissonant with the gameplay. And yet, even without much of what makes Painful such an amazing game, even with the late changes that made it work worse, I love Joyful and I can't see Painful and the First without it. Joyful has just enough wonderful moments that I keep coming back to it whenever I come back to Painful.

[@safetyboots]

Anyway, about the prompt you get for approaching the pacifists villagers, they're not for you, they're about Buddy. She's already suffering from joy and has to consciously hold herself back from murdering innocent and pacifist people. It might not be the most elegant way to do it, but it's just a window to Buddy's psyche, not something about the player like Spec Ops: The Line. Also, while the Definitive Edition goes further away from the original Joyful with the joyless ending, I really enjoyed Lisa getting some justice and that last messed up and sweet moment between Buddy and Brad.

[@larubric]

@@safetyboots Thank you very much for the in-depth comment. I did have a section talking about how there was an inherent disadvantage going in because it didn't have the time nor narrative resources to be Painful 2.0. Even though it was never meant to be, the fact it follows after Painful really set itself up for a major downgrade. Thank you for pointing out the stuff about the original joyful, genuinely had no clue about the difficulty and it's evident that the plot point about the joy mutation would have worked much better with just how much joy Buddy was taking. However, the stuff with the Pacifist Village is laughably bad. Sure we're not Buddy and she does stuff that pertains to her appropriate character - the same way Brad ends up killing his father whether you want him to or not - but the difference is that you could understand why Brad was doing what he did because YOU, the player, saw first-hand how terrible a person Marty was. With Buddy, however, YOU don't connect at all with why's she is doing what she is doing. It's not a problem because it's not more involving of the player but, instead, it's a problem because Buddy is so irreparably unlikeable and right out the gate you differ from her motivations so much that you can't possibly empathise with her struggle. Joyful's failings ultimately made me value the trilogy - especially Painful - more. But it's still a bad game with a not-so-great narrative. There was just no way Dingaling could have made this good without making it Painful 2.0.

[@safetyboots]

@@larubric Thanks for the response and thanks for this and Painful's video. Anyway, I disagree with not being able to connect at all with Buddy, because I did. I'll save you the details, but I understand not being able to show "weakness", having a father who's absuive while thinking he's doing what was best for his child, and how much that can mess someone up. Seeing Marty with Buddy doesn't carry the same sheer horror if you don't have the context of what he did to Lisa in the first game. Likewise, I think that the very start of Joyful sets up the pace for what's to come. We see what Brad did to Buddy. Buddy wasn't allowed to hug Brad, to call him dad, to talk with her uncles, to go out, to have a life, to make any choices. She was raised to be a ruthless killing machine and nothing else. She has no concept of pacifism or mercy, she just sees the pacifists as weak men (and that all men, even those close to her, just want to control and use her) and I don't think that some few words from Dusty are able to undo all that Brad did to Buddy. Ultimately, I don't think that the characters and story in Joyful are the problem. It's just that choosing to kill or not a random NPC with no lines carries nowhere near the same weight as confronting your and your dead sister's abuser. Like you said, Joyful was at an inherent disadvantage. Painful is easily the best one in the trilogy, but I believe that the other two, despite their flaws, strengthen what Painful did. I wish Joyful had the same care and effort put into it as Painful, but I'd rather have what we have, flaws and all, than not have it at all.

[@larubric]

@@safetyboots I think agree to disagree would be the best course of action, yeah. I knew what it was going in, lowered my expectations, and still felt very unmoved. Buddy's character made sense but it didn't work as an aspect of an interactive game and ultimately didn't make the considerations for how a player might not align with what she's doing, a stark contrast to how even in Brad's darkest moments you at least understood why he would do something horrible. Thanks for the in-depth opinion and support on the video, hope to see you on the next one!

[@aoib890]

Joyful has to be a very mixed experience for me, after watching multiple explanations of the ending and reading a lot of reddit posts, I understand why Austin/Bradlovesgames didn't do joyful as well as painful. Painful will always be my favourite, Joyful is just a neat addon. - Not very fun to play, though. I sort of wish we had more of the fun characters survive. No extra party members made sense plotwise, most men would just join the party to try things with Buddy, but unfortunately the lack of party members makes the fighting extremely boring, as you mentioned. While the story wrapped up a lot of loose ends, it was just not my favourite. But, if i bought definitive edition, I'd still play through it. Maybe with some mods to make the fighting more fun, though.

[@Cesar-le5nx]

Would love to see you review some of the fan games

[@sarafontanini7051]

it should be noted that (as since been explained to you that buddy DID take joy in painful we just only get a single line of dialogue saying that and we never see it in the game outright) a lot of Buddy's darker impluses are implied to be the result of Joy taking hold of her. Hence why we get the flash of intestines (a signifier of Joy Mutation happening) when Buddy says she wants to take over Olathe. Between the events of Painful and what';s revealed to be a brutal upbringing by Brad (to explain why she's able to kill so many of the men hunting her in painful) AND the Joy Mutation, her violent tendencies and sense of cruelty are growing in the game's story and her inability to see the wrong in it is enhanced. (this could explain why she's subtly differently characterised in Painful compared to Joyful, a side effect of the Joy affecting her mind) It is stated somewhere (i forget where) that taking Joy even ONCE is enough for it take effect. You only become a mutant when you either give up, die or some other factor i am not sure about. its should also be noted that Joyful was made with the intention that you, yknow, use Joy, compared to Painful where msot people didn't want to for one reason or another. As Buddy doesn't have the same history as Brad has nor any knowledge to understand how bad taking Joy actually is.

[@MMSOctoMiner]

Good vod, but at 12:05 " [Buzzo] is implied to be physically weaker than a 12 year old who has picked up a sword for the first time in her life." irked me. I don't know if this is ever outright said, but it's implied in Brad's house, in Buzzo's dialogue after you cut off the nipple, and in the opening cutscene that Buddy was trained by Brad since at least before Painful.

[@larubric]

'Trained' is a stretch. She was likely taught to not have the moral inhibition to kill someone if she needed to, if she was alone and had to defend herself, but she did not receive anything close to the years of training Brad went through with his grandfather. Buzzo, similarly, trained under his teachings and mechanically is implied to be stronger and more formidable in every way than Brad. That's why when you try to fight him, you immediately lose. So there's ludonarrative dissonance in how a young girl that has trained far less than Brad is suddenly more proficient in lethal combat than the guy who always managed to beat him every single time. Potentially the explanation is that Buddy is dosing on so much joy throughout the game that she's in a constant blood frenzy could work but, considering you can get through the remaster without taking any, it's hard to see that being the case. TLDR: Buddy did not get nearly the same amount of training as Brad or Buzzo got, which is why her being physically more powerful than Buzzo is jarring.

[@RevenantNeverDies]

buzzo also became extremely addicted to joy which weakened him in the long run and it literally consumed him@@larubric

[@faptimoolactos7423]

Please play hopeful or pointless scholar of the wilbur sin at some point. I promise they are both worth it.

[@thetoysmoveontheirown]

Now do the superboss and witness the worst ending known to man

[@bonkboyderp8052]

you shoud try lisa the hopefull even tho a fan game a lot of the stuff you said about this game gone

[@my_name_is_J_777]

you are totally missing out if you've never experienced lisa the pointless specifically the infinity unfolds version unironically my favorite rpg ever

[@panos21sonic]

I also didnt take any joy in my playthrough and that buddy took joy when captive at any point where we werent playing as her, either in painful or in the beginning of joyful. At the same time I was expecting me not taking any joy would affect the game knowing how painful had a joyless and route (and how on the definitive edition olan just up and leaves you if you rest after taking too much joy as brad) and thus i was dissapointed.

[@EKTE64]

Make a video on Lisa: The Undone please! It's a fan remaster of the joyful

[@return4887]

its not a finished game so i dont really know if its worth to have a video on

[@BarioIDL]

if buddy was more likeable, rando wouldn't leave, and she can team up with the bees and green ranger

[@sarafontanini7051]

something you seemed to have misunderstood was what yado was doing. Everything happened NOT because Yado was experimenting on a drug for the military. He USED the military as means to fund his sick desires. He had no interest in using the drug for military purposes. He desired Olathe not as a lab experiment but as a KINGDOM. He wanted to feel like a GOD and hence caused the Flash to happen (somehow, we still don't know the details on THAT) because he wanted to create a chaotic haven of despair for him to watch upon from above, filled with Joy Mutants he could control as slaves while killing the rest with their power. The reason he abandoned Buddy in Olathe was to spark a war over her as he wanted to use everyone's desperation for women to create a war that would lead to most everyone dying and he could then use the joy mutants to kill the rest. basically Yado was a weird lunatic who wanted to rule a wasteland of monsters and had no interests in running an 'experiment' beyond how said experiments could help him with his insane goal.

[@EgeBoyOnYouTube]

The fact that you don't even mention the Brad hallucination is the worst sin any reviewer of any game has ever committed.

[@larubric]

:(

[@EgeBoyOnYouTube]

Also Buzzo has a good amount of character development and flashbacks in the game from what I remember but they're hidden away in secret areas, that's problably why he feels so hamfisted in to the finale if you haven't explored around. I personally love his character and the side plot about him coming to terms with how Lisa treated her and how he wasn't fair to Brad. Though I do agree him coming in the finale acting like you're supposed to know all of that makes you question why it's so out of the beaten path in the first place, that's odd.

[@bred7833]

ok but what did you think of the binky scene

[@larubric]

We don't talk about the binky scene.

[@safetyboots]

That scene was hilarious and what Buzzo deserved.

[@SenorFluffy]

“I AM SILLY” -Actual line

[@JoaoVictor-rg5ix]

Well. Just one thing left to say: #justiceforbrad

[@fourtyfir]

reccomended

[@BarioIDL]

if you think about it, lisa the joyful is TLOU2 but good: -your father can make vaccine to save the world -you gotta travel across the land to kill a bunch of people, why not -your surrogate father "died" at the start of the game -a bunch of flashbacks 2 people asked for -your companion left you because you are batsht insane

[@marupan_desu]

Ok but 0/10 no character is named lisa in this game

[@lithiumXtear]

Doesn't Buddy take Joy at the end of Painful when shes found with Morty? She makes a comment that it doesn't taste good. Also while I agree that the combat sucked in Joyful, I look at it like that horrible Morty Mound fight at the end of Painful. It was a VERY long and dragging fight, but its meant to symbolize how Brand and Lisas struggles with Morty were long and dragging. In Joyful, its more of a hack/slash and heal fighting because Buddy is inexperienced but her goal was to kill all the leaders, and rule the land alone, hence fighting alone for most of the game. Also Buddy was kicking Sweethearts ass but Buzzo ended it because he didn't want her to kill her own mother.

[@larubric]

Hey Litihum, thanks for the comment. I've said it to other people who've pointed out the same thing; Brad's moment with Joy was a narrative climax that managed to prevent player autonomy from affecting the story in a way that was meaningful, well done, and not blatant. Joyful's iteration of this moment is an off-hand moment of dialogue between Marty and Buddy in a separate game. Doesn't work the same. Also the fight against Mountain Marty is mechanically a challenge for everything the game has thrown at you so far. Resource management, permadeath, and effective party composition are key to success. It is metaphorically meaningful, yes - I talk about it at length during the PAINFUL essay - but it's not at the cost of the enjoyment the game brings. That aspect of mixing and matching characters to experiment and optimise your approach to foes makes the combat of Painful really fun and worth paying attention to, not to mention makes it so repeat playthroughs are possible. Joyful's combat comes down to repeatedly mashing specific buttons that make up 1/3 of your available kit in an endless game of punches that is, comparatively, extremely boring and uninteresting. The third one is news to me, I don't know the extent of Sweetheart's relationship to Buddy and Yado. I also find this stuff gets a tad convoluted, again, as I explained in this video. I don't care about the details of this experiment cos we never bought into the Flash purely on the merit of it being an apocalyptic setting but because it was a mirror of Brad's upbringing. A world pretty much without women, equally as violent, surrounded by equally depressed and distraught friends. A world where the life of a girl that meant a lot to him was, yet again, at stake. Thank you again for the engagement, I hope I'll get to see you on my more recent uploads!

[@somethinginventive153]

the only thing good that came out of joyful is 666 killchop deluxe and maaaaybe lore

[@boopbeep2310]

lisa the disapointful :^(

[@berbstuf850]

the reason that buddy is becoming a joy mutant is because she takes joy in the events of lisa the painful. thats why it seems like its coming out of left field.

[@flaco3462]

a miserable experience not worth playing in the slightest

[@yesyes2736]

Some of this is just kinda wrong

[@larubric]

please tell me what i got wrong, i genuinely would want to know

[@yesyes2736]

​@@larubric Well obviously this stuff is right in many ways, but the game originally didnt even have mend, and you actually had to use joy. Also, on the topic of "She just used joy because plot" that was also basically the case for brad, the force-feeding thing was just to expedite it, I suppose. So both games use the sort of off-screen and dare I say joyful actually did it better with balancing joy into the game. This also explains why mutants dont 1shot you, since your not really human. As for the whole "Lisa is alone" gameplay issue, while I do definitely agree joyfuls combat is way worse than painfuls, the fact that shes alone also serves a very important narrative perspective, this whole dlc game is, for one, to expand on the world of lisa the painful, but also to show the kind of situation buddy's in, what shes been through, how she treats others destructively and ends up alone, turned bitter through all her conflicts and this game is supposed to be her sort of full-circle character arc, where she comes to realize brad loved her, and shes able to mature past being a childish ass. Thats the reason they put the dr in so suddenly as her father, it was to circle back to buddy and brads relationship, and allowed buddy to understand and grow from it. On the note of Buzzo seeming useless against the big joy monster and that we were "Kicking its ass" we literally cant kill it until Buzzo does it for us, so I dont really get that. This game isnt meant to be about the whole lab stuff and experiments by the doctor, its about buddy's growth, and while it is way flawed and in many way inferior to painless, calling it only relevant because of the existence of painless seems a bit too far. As you said, the joy pills represent giving into your sorrows and how they transform you, the vaccine represents something different, its an escape, a chance indirectly given(Imo brad) to offer her a way out, that was the whole point of painful, and buddy choosing the vaccine symbolizes her putting away her monsters and moving on with her life. I feel like this dlc gets way more flak then n should've just because the story is so different, and saying this game is nothing without painful to predate it honestly kills me because of how they arent the same thing, buddy and brad are different, and thats the point. Honestly this was a great video but I feel like you sort of missed the point, if only slightly. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my very short and uninformative comment.

[@larubric]

@@yesyes2736 Hey Yes, thanks for the eloquent follow up. I can't say I particularly agree with anything said but I understand the different perspective. I do think, with all respect, I did address these points in the video but I'm happy to run it back. Ludonarrative dissonance does a lot of overtime here and that's ultimately why so much of Joyful becomes hard to engage with. You're right, Painful does have a forcefeeding segment to override the player's choice to abstain in a believable way, but it also has before that an entire game that gives you the option to use it and increasingly rely on it or not use it and endure withdrawal's negative effects throughout the entire game. In terms of how it materialises for the player, it is far more interesting a gameplay decision than Joyful where - even though originally it was hard to win without it - it takes away any opportunity for meaningful input on part of the player. And considering Joyful is even more linear than Painful, the fact it didn't remedy this glaring plothole that doesn't account for the possibility a player hasn't taken Joy with the same easy thing Painful did is also quite confusing. The fight against Sweetie (I think that's its name) and Buzzo hopping in felt wonky because, in terms of play, it is not a hard fight at all. When you fought a joy mutant in Painful, they weren't scary just cos the game told you they were; they had the potential to instantly kill anyone of your party or instantly KO Brad meaning the player had a tangible reason to fear them. It's not enough for a game to just tell you something is X Y or Z, it has to materialise in a way that the player experiences e.g. the way the game plays. So when you get to Sweetie and the game has established so far they're a force of nature that butchers and kills so many armed thugs, the fact it's hardly a worry in the gameplay contradicts that and - by extension - the fact someone like Buzzo who is meant to be more powerful than us gets ultimately killed by it implies he is weaker than someone as amateur as Buddy. Sure, you can't kill Sweetie because the game physically won't let you, but considering you can completely outspeed its damage through heals and deliver similarly lethal strikes, it doesn't exactly create the illusion of desperate survival you're being told is happening here. This is how it comes off, at least, in the definitive edition of the game. The vaccine appearing can be interpreted as a similiar metaphor as Joy but Joy worked because it was believably contextualised within the world and how the game played. It's a drug that lets you pursue vapid, meaningless and ultimately temporary happiness that neglects on truly meaningful growth and ends up with you becoming a monster that is just a violent distortion of who you once were. It works well as a metaphor. The vaccine, this miracle cure that is introduced at a very important part of the story without any prior indication, almost feels like an attempt to write yourself out of a corner. 'How can Buddy possibly redeem herself within the story from a position Brad wasn't able to escape at all? Oh, right, there's a vaccine somewhere she can use'. Do you see how the significance of Joy and the addiction to it gets undermined when the solution was a magic drug somewhere that has far less meaningful presence in the game and world? Finally, the whole thing about Joyful only really mattering or meaning anything because of Painful I think is a fair comment that most people will agree with. Ask anyone about one of the most meaningful moments in the game and, I guarantee, people will say the moment with Brad towards the end. People came into Joyful off the tail-end of Brad's story and, understandably, weren't gripped by the contrived story of Buddy who - while sympathetic in some ways - lacks relatable or intriguing motivations presented in an engaging way. Because they weren't engrossed in the narrative of a game that was far more heavy-handed in its staging - especially the section in the Pacifist village where you're randomly being broached the opportunity to kill people - of course they would then find the parts related to the far better first game more meaningful. I am one of those people, and I think it aligns with how Buddy would be nothing without Brad who ultimately saved her from the world that wanted to hurt her. This just partially comes down to the fact Joyful wasn't as good, really, which I think we can both agree on but also how narratively Joyful itself has Brad save her through the lucid dream where she realises how much he loved her and appearing at the cliff just before the final choice. Happy to see a different perspective on the game and, while I again can't say I agree, I genuinely appreciate the explanation as to why. Also glad you thought the video to be 'great', means a lot.

[@yesyes2736]

@@larubric guess we'll agree to disagree, since this argument could go in circles, thanks for the response, though.

[@ЛеонидЗурнаджи]

Lisa the Undone is better tho.