Why Men Think about the Roman Empire (A Theory)

[@tribunateSPQR]

95% of our viewers are male - why do you believe there is such a gender imbalance in the study of Roman history?

[@deathmagneto-soy]

Wimmin be shoppin innit :)

[@gregoryfilin8040]

History is quite a boring subject to actually study, and less than 1% of men even attempt it. So it's already a man's world when it comes to history. I also find more women than men just get bored by the idea of thinking of Rome.

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@deathmagneto-soy I imagine this is what keeps them from wanting to read plutarch

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@gregoryfilin8040 Yes, it’s a niche subject and those of us who study it can forget that. This is why I think the fact that military history makes up such a big component of Roman history buffs skews it so heavily male. On topics like art, literature and language it’s more balanced

[@timothyblazer1749]

"Thinking about" isn't the same as "study" it.. What the actual question should be is why do so many NOT think about it, given there are reminders everywhere in the West. in language, the design of government buildings and even the names of some months?

[@NiceViking100]

"Men did not love Rome because she was great. She was great because they had loved her." - G. K. Chesterton

[@antonifortis1084]

Boys think of the Empire, Men think of the Republic

[@tribunateSPQR]

100%. Could not have said it better myself

[@M-J-qn8td]

So true!

[@Jpturlax01]

typical American liberal amarite?... oh, we were talking about rome, are we? My bad, I thought you were talking about the modern aristocratic oligarchy :'/ @@jonoc3729

[@joecreek6038]

God was born in the empire not the republic

[@Jpturlax01]

@@joecreek6038 and so was Nero and Caligula, not exactly the healthiest place that it spawns 3 genocidal freaks back to back

[@ishouldhavetried]

Im a girl. I like history. I think of the Roman Empire often because they're tied to the rest of history. Think of American architecture? Roman. Think of the Vikings? Roman. Silk road? Roman. They're like a historical Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon

[@tribunateSPQR]

Very true, so much of subsequent history has either been heavily influenced by them or done in conscious emulation

[@Gaphalor]

I don't see the Vikings-Roman connection somehow.

[@walter1383]

@@Gaphalor Three that I can think of. Certain Vikings wound up as the elite Varangian guard of the Byzantine Empire (the surviving medieval eastern half). Alternatively, the Goths which often fought against and alongside the late Roman empire where originally from Gotland, part of the same ethnic stock as the later Vikings. Lastly the empire abandoned their holdings in Britannia, leaving the remaining Romano-British to contend with the invasions of Germanic tribes of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes from what is now modern Denmark, which would be echoed by their relatives the Vikings invading the Isles three hundred years later.

[@Gaphalor]

@@walter1383 Yea but that not enough to call Vikings similar to romans or heavily influenced by Romans like this comment suggests. The Viking Civilisation and Culture really has nearly nothing to do with Roman civilisation. The only thing I can think of is that maybe their gods have come from similar ancestors but that's purely speculative on my part.

[@n.d.m.515]

Except all Rome leads to Greece.

[@Maphisto86]

I am glad to see a nuanced take on not just the historical facts or conjectures, but also how we imagine historical periods in relation to ourselves.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! That's one of the things we always try to do with our content, relay the facts but also provide at least a little analysis that contextualizes them

[@tobiasglendenning7966]

I went to university to study history and while I found there to actually be more women studying history than men (55:45) there was a massive disparity in the kinds of history being studied. Political history was still dominated by men, but women tended to be more interested in social history. Political history in Europe is dominated by Rome and its legacy, but socially, while Rome had a large impact, it's not as comparatively necessary to think back to Rome. Now on top of this if we expand the subjects we're talking about to history enthusiasts in general, most history enthusiasts are men. The meme spaces, the historical strategy games, and their communities, the public historical discourse is mostly men discussing political history which isn't as appealing to women. As to why political history appeals to men and social history to women, I leave that for another conversation. As to why I think of Rome often? I mostly study ancient history mostly in Europe so it's not that much of a stretch to think about why I think of Rome often.

[@spicydaddy2526]

Most men imagine themselves as Senators but I, realistically, imagine myself as a slave leading a rebellion like Spartacus, only more bravely and successfully of course

[@tribunateSPQR]

Hell yes comrade. We’ve got a series on Spartacus and the slave uprisings in the work so stay tuned

[@semikolondev]

I think most people imagine themselves in an Army or manual workers

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@Transilvanian90 that's why we need to make sure he would win

[@spicydaddy2526]

alright so a couple conversations with Real Life women later, I've mostly got points covered in the video, which are all part of the whole answer: 1) Rome is peak patriarchy. If you ask a RETVRN guy it's a the perfect chauvinist meritocracy. Obviously, as the video covers, it's way more likely you'd be a commoner than the son of senator, and that doesn't even get into the wars aspect (more on that below). After all of this, and even among slaves, men had more power than women, so it's rough to imagine being a woman even more than an average man, and there's wayyy less room for the delusion power fantasies. This flows right into 2) Roman history being documented by men means it's even more about just men than actual Roman life, and is even less relatable to women. My partner pointed out that the harshest barrier to her interest is that Rome is the most like modern America as far as ancient states are concerned, and she doesn't need to see the same wars and politics and money schemes that we suffer under daily glorified as historic deeds of great men, or even presented as complex but significant points of history. She points out that history is so big and so long, and Rome is a favorite playground for dudes because it is simply the most Dudes Rock point in recorded history. 3) War is, in my experience, more attractive to the attention of men than women. I could only speculate on the reasons for this, which are broader than the scope of this question, but I think also deeply related. Part is that dudes love contests of power. I don't think it's as simple as men preferring to pay attention to men and women to women; I can name more female athletes than my partner, but that is because I am more interested in contests of physical and mental performance than she is. So it makes sense that dudes like Rome because so much of Roman history is war history. Which brings me to: 4) The impact of fact that it's easier to imagine yourself *anywhere at all* as a man cannot be measured but should maybe get more attention, as it still skews modern history interests. Take Caesar's campaigns and World War 2, two significant parts of world history, not just because of the events themselves, but the repercussions. They are both documented firsthand by expert orators and writers (Caesar and Churchill) who are unquestionably biased but also fascinating. They're also guys, leading guys, focused on the opinions, needs, and plans of other guys. To me, nothing is more exciting than when Churchill is describing the macroscopic conflict between empire-states in anthropomorphic terms that hearken back to ancient warfare. I can't fully explain why that appeals to me, so I can't fully explain why it doesn't appeal to people who aren't me. But it's sweet.

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@spicydaddy2526 excellent, thoughtful response

[@bonecanoe86]

Her: I bet he's thinking about other girls. Him: If only I could have been there on the Ides of March, I could have warned Caesar...

[@tribunateSPQR]

I have literally spent so much time thinking about this

[@jensphiliphohmann1876]

About 10:05 Romulus Augustulus was only the last emperor of the western Roman empire. The last actual Roman emperor was Constantine XI Palaiologos who fell in 1453.

[@CorrieV]

I came in feeling defensive but this is a great video! Very thoughtful and great discussion :)

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! Really Glad you enjoyed it

[@Bawhoppen]

To me it's most simple as this: Rome is an excellent story. From every aspect of it at every point in history: -The founding of the city, Romulus and Remus, and the great fratricide (though this one actually probably is just a story) -The founding of the Republic, Tarquin the proud, the rape of Lucretia, and overthrowing the monarchy, -The Latin League, the wars in Italy, the overthrowal of the more powerful Etruscans, and later the Pyrrhic war -The Punic Wars the intensity of fighting in the 1st, the ultimate struggle for survival in the 2nd against Hannibal, where despite utterly catastrophic losses in battle, the Romans resisted for over a decade and eventually won, with the 3rd being a telling about the vengeance. -The conflict of the orders, conservative vs reformists, the Gracchi brothers, the conflicts between Marius, Cinna, and Sulla. -The Servile Wars, Spartacus overcoming the huge odds, but still being defeated, with the ending setting the stage between the rivalry between Crassus & Pompey. -The first triumvirate and the politics preceding the end of the Republic, huge characters like Cicero, Julius Caesar's conquests, but then his civil war against his former ally and eventual victory... but then his poetic assassination by Brutus. -The post-Caesarian politics, Cicero's attempt to save the Republic, but eventual proscription, the 2nd triumvirate, Cleopatra, and eventual victory of Octavian into Augustus. -The mad emperors, Caligula, Nero, early imperial politics, and foundation of the empire. -The Roman peace, the Five Good Emperors, and the end of the golden age with Commodus. -The Crisis of the Third Century, showing the utter tenaciousness of the civilization, but also the huge change in societal character that occurred. -The Christian persecutions, but then the inevitable triumph of the Christian underdogs conversion, and then persecutions against pagans, with critically interesting characters like Diocletian, Constantine, and Julian. -The resilience of the Late Empire, with individuals showing their dedication to something higher than themselves, trying to save their civilization. -And the eventual Fall of the West, wrapping the political reality of Romulus founding Rome and it ending with a Romulus... With the decaying ruins of the Empire even being seen then as a melancholic sign of a former golden era... but at the same time the civilization in many ways continues in the culture, religious, and legal traditions of the West. -And yet despite the West falling, the East continues with its own stories of just as equally thrilling narrative stakes. -The revival and reembrace of these things during the Renaissance. Each of these as a story rivals anything that Hollywood could even dream to come up with, with so much greater detail, richness, and more powerful themes than you can imagine. And all of them seamlessly flow into one another for each and every point. And then to think... it's all actually true. It's real history. It's truly mind-blowing. I cannot even do justice for the beauty of it as a story. “Rome was a poem pressed into service as a city.” - Anatole Broyard

[@WhisperXK]

Why are people just now realizing men like roman history

[@liamimbriolo6066]

There once was a Dream... A Dream called Rome.

[@tribunateSPQR]

...and there still is

[@unknowninfinium4353]

You could only whisper it.

[@y11971alex]

May I point out that there was no observable gender imbalance in my classics department when I was at university. 😅

[@tribunateSPQR]

As it should be! Everyone should feel welcome in the classics

[@Xebelan]

Yeah, my latin classes were also split fairly evenly.

[@n.d.m.515]

Except once outside of university it doesn't matter who takes what classes. Men still think about Rome much more than women on a daily basis.

[@Mr.Ambrose_Dyer_Armitage_Esq.]

May I point out that men are dropping out of universities on an increasing basis with 60% or more of diplomas in some areas going to women? Of course things are going to be balanced, men increasingly don't want to waste their time and money on institutions that seek to emasculate them while decrying them as the oppressive bigots of history all the while promoting females over them to meet diversity quotas. I'm surprised the MAJORITY of our classics department ISN'T female.

[@WorthlessWinner]

"Rome is the first point history becomes intelligible" The Greeks look on in dismay o_o

[@tribunateSPQR]

Fair criticism! My point is entirely subjective as to me the Romans are more symbolic of the transition from ancient to modern but I can totally understand why someone else would choose the Greeks

[@laisphinto6372]

When you are so Roman you dismiss the greek AS little more than houseslaves

[@Debbie338]

I’m a woman and I think about the Romans every day. I love ancient history and I am astounded at the things they did, both good and bad. Their military, their feats of engineering, and their willingness to adapt things from other cultures; the ability of their society to survive a thousand years of a Republic and an Empire in spite of the fact that they were killing each other almost as much as they killed external enemies. Maybe most of your viewers are male, but there are plenty of women interested in Ancient Greek and Roman history. Your statements about the fact that most of us would have been born lower-class is so on point. Men who dream about being Roman are like the people who think they’ve lived as someone famous in the past. They always seem to have been someone important, but never just a regular person. You have a lot of insight into the human psyche.

[@catherineehlers8115]

Here's another woman who loves Roman history.

[@laisphinto6372]

I think women didnt Had IT that Bad in ancient Rome OK i mean the noble women because they were respected for ancient Standards especially mothers, politics highly depend since Most of the women do the behind the Scene stuff political marriages. To the slander from Senators of imperial wives IT could be compared to the slander of Roman emperors, Lots of nagging,No bite

[@Debbie338]

@@laisphinto6372 Except for the small detail that Roman Patriarchs could kill their wives with impunity, for whatever slight that was perceived or real, sure.

[@a.wenger3964]

I'm a male, but I can't say I've ever really fantasized about living under the Roman Empire. Life there was kinda nasty, brutish, and short. ln a word: barbaric, but, at the same time, it was a period rich in art, culture, literature, politics, etc. I always found this juxtaposition to be fascinating. Additionally, the corruption and fragility of institutions during the late republic is an exellent lesson in our own time for how governments can devolve into tyranny. In terms of military history, the exploits of both Hanibal and Ceasar against the Romans themselves were always more interesting to me than stories of Roman conquests over other cultures.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Because we compress 1000 years of history into one single idea of "Rome" - there will always be this tension in the juxtaposition of civilization and savagery. This just makes an undeniably fascinating society even more intriguing in my opinion

[@rostdreadnorramus4936]

Greece is the modern continuation of the Roman state which never ceased to exist on account of the Ottomans never conquering the Mani Peninsula, the home of the Maniots, a people that later merged with the Greek state after it gained it's independence. Yes the Roman Empire is gone, and yes the state is no longer the juggernaut it once was in the Classical era, and at different points in the Medieval era, but still it endures to this day. Btw I highly recommend reading about the Maniots, because they're a very cool people with an incredible history, besides the fact that they were Rome's continuation. Roma Aeterna 🇬🇷

[@EnlightenedScarWolf]

Italians and Greeks One people

[@apollonphoebus7549]

The Byzantium fans delusion sees no end Italy is Roman state not greece

[@rostdreadnorramus4936]

@@apollonphoebus7549 Litterly go look it up.

[@BrennenRaimer]

Well put! this is such a good video!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you!

[@TobyTubeS]

Another great vid - well thought out and excellently argued

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

better than anything on TikTok for sure

[@tribunateSPQR]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@soumyajitsingha9614]

As a 17 year old guy I am more fond of and think about Ancient Greece and the empire of Emperor Alexander The Great

[@tribunateSPQR]

I can’t blame you, Ancient Greek history is equally fascinating

[@kyleanuar9090]

When I was your age I was obsessed with ancient Greek and Egyptian even wanted to be an Egyptologist but later in life ancient Roman getting more interesting.

[@soumyajitsingha9614]

@@kyleanuar9090 Well I see, but I hope I'd be able to stick to Ancient Greece

Such a great analysis of the social complexity in ancient times and how modern male chauvinism idealizes Rome. I really love the social focus of your videos. Thank you.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you very much, really glad to hear the positive feedback and that you appreciate our slightly different take on the Roman world.

[@enocescalona]

I mainly love their aesthetic, so am glad you guys talk about them. I hope you have the chance to speak about the lost roman legions. As i would want to see what info you can bring. I am going to base something fictional off them.

[@tribunateSPQR]

This is a great idea! While we haven’t done much on military history just yet, we will turn our attention to the legions soon

[@sugar_walls]

excellent video as usual. always like when hints of your marxism shine through

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! But I really thought we were being subtle this time - President Xi has asked us to tone it down

[@sugar_walls]

@@tribunateSPQR lmao you were. just hints. xi gives you any guff i'll mediate

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@sugar_walls thanks, but he's usually pretty chill

[@sugar_walls]

@@tribunateSPQR hell yeah 🫡

[@kelownatechkid]

Haha! Surprised and amused to see this topic covered. Personally my interest kind of spread from my reading of Vaclav Smil, who is an expert on energy from the University of Manitoba. Reading his work on energy and civilization led me to be more interested in history.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Fascinating, That’s a very unique entry point

[@shawnredmond8402]

"why do men think of ancient Roman". ...because it is currently in vogue amongst young western reactionaries and people tend to do whatever their compatriots are doing.

[@tribunateSPQR]

unfortunately I think this is true for a small subset of the new generation of people interested in Rome

[@Magplar]

this is a brilliant video. a sub well earned. can't wait to watch the rest of your stuff

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! Please let us know what you think of our other content!

[@catnhat1117]

Oh I can't resist! Rome per se may have "fallen", but think about the many ways it lives on! I'm a woman and have been a fan of Rome and the Latin language since 8th grade. Sure this was a patriarchal society, and featured some brutality and cruelty repugnant to modern sensibilities, but how can one not be in awe of Roman accomplishments in government and engineering, and appreciate the elegance of their whole aesthetic? Personally, it's not difficult for me to identify with the human qualities of historical figures who "don't look like me". And when I consider that my ancestors who arrived in the USA over the past 4 centuries came from Italy, France, Germany, Spain, and the British Isles -- all places that were ruled by or interacted with Rome -- it's not a stretch to imagine that they had predecessors in every level of Roman society, from privilege to bondage. Glad to have this & other KZbin channels that cover ancient Rome, as well as the increasing number of Latin language channels.

[@bigbo1764]

Well, as a male, I think about Rome on a daily basis because if I didn’t I’d probably fail out of my classics major

[@y11971alex]

The way I concern myself with history is this: would my views about this history change if I were not the person I am? If so, then my views are subjective. A reasonable historian is one who has no nationality or gender.

[@spookyshark632]

"Because it's there" is a good way to put it. Basically everything in the western world connects back to Rome in some way. It's hard not to think about Rome every now and then.

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

I did not expect to learn this much from a video on a tiktok trend

[@tribunateSPQR]

Glad you found it useful!

[@dinarosita1607]

I may be late but here is what I can say. First I was one of the few girls obsessed with Ceasar and Brutus because of Shakphere's plays. I found it very poetic that he was betrayed by Brutus that time when I was a kid. Now I am a grown woman who still looks at Roman history because of the new things discovered. I was very confused when this trend of how women asking their boyfriends about Rome arose. I am a woman who is very interested in Roman armor and the military more than Roman social life. However, I am still interested in trade empires throughout history as well. I found it very cringe when online women were making the female equivalent of the Roman Empire because for me it's still the Roman Empire and it's still the military. I feel like women who are obsessed with current consumerist products like makeup have a higher voice than women who are interested in history. My grandma told me the history of Alexander the Great more than our family history. However, my mother was the opposite because she was more into current consumerist objects. For men, it's different because all the consumerist objects still have Rome as a marketing in watches or tech or even mafia media. Most of us women in tech and history have our voices overshadowed by men and celebrities or influencer women who are obsessed with beauty consumerist products. Even if women like me are interested in the Roman Empire are not even asked by these women. I still live in a rigidly patriarchal society in my country. Rome being patriarchal is nothing new to me.

[@pol1656]

Excellent video

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you!!

[@kriswright5112]

The English speakers here should imagine themselves less like Caesar and more like Odoacer

[@tribunateSPQR]

Caesar on the British "They are the most ignorant people I have ever conquered"

[@kriswright5112]

@@tribunateSPQR 500 years later, the romans were the most civilized people the germans ever conquered :)

[@StanGB]

very interesting take on this - elevating a tiktok trend into actual historical discourse

[@tribunateSPQR]

It was trending for a reason, and we wanted to shed light on what we think is the reason why

[@datboi7160]

I saw a theory from a girl in a comment section saying men think about the roman empire because the majority of men are reincarnations of men from rome

[@whydama]

Men like companionship. As marriage collapses in the modern world with more divorces, men would like the military of Rome. Modern wars create PTSD. But in ancient era wars created less PTSD. And soldiers were honored. I imagine myself as a Legionaire. See the beginning of Rome TV series. How the legions fight.

[@TheBrickMasterB]

Interestingly, I'm more of an oblong rome enjoyer. i never cared much about it in my youth, preferring bronze age civilizations and their mythical/obscure status, and even preferring to hear about the Greeks more. But what hooked me was the sheer longevity and ingenuity that's woven into Roman life, and those of its successors, like Venice. The way they were able to shape their environments to suit them, creating massive super highways of water, developing new strategies and organizational structures, their stable governing patterns that could've easily been expanded if they'd just let it be, and their love of philosophy and dialogue just felt compelling. Especially when you've got al ot of neglect-related issues and spent much of your upbringing homeless. Now I'm working on a novel with an elven society based on Rome. Even going so far as to take some alternative history-style flavorings to how it's written. I'm eager to get it done.

[@ldamoff]

I am confused as to why the Roman acceptance of neckbeards as a valid fasion choice never entered into this discussion. The joke is right there guys. C'mon!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Hahaha excellent point and a glaring omission on our part. Let it be said that anyone who disagrees with us looks exactly like Emperor Nero

[@nunyabiznes33]

Neckbeard is but a way to a glorious curly Marcus Aurelius beard, I suppose.

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@nunyabiznes33 In terms of neckbeards, Nero walked so that Marcus Aurelius could run

[@hansvonmannschaft9062]

At Lawschool, one of the first subjects was Roman Law, as it extends well into today's institutions. More than a few books included, needless to say, Roman History as well. The interesting bit is that women were indeed not only mentioned, but along the Roman family, were considered the social treasure to guard, and the main responsibles for Rome's ability to constantly have available hands for any endeavor. And to replenish its ranks so fast and successfully. Wish I could remember authors and titles, would've made this post a bit more helpful I guess. Now, why do men happen to be more interested than women in studying Rome? Welp, obviously, because due to the focus on famous men, we _"tend"_ to forget who made them to begin with! 🙂

[@singam7436]

Ironically, as someone who thinks about Ancient India (a nebulous concept if there ever was one) more than Ancient Rome, the reason i think about it so much is precisely because it's still here in crucial ways (the institutions of Ancient India still surround me even though I'm in the diaspora). Notably, the golden age of India was when my religion started to take its modern form (though it only became constructed during the Islamic and colo0nial period), and thanks to the magic of diglossia, by adopting a more educated dialect of my native language, i would be able to communicate with people from around the 10th century (though unfortunately not much earlier).

[@shawnredmond8402]

I don't think about the Roman Empire. I think of the last days of the Russian Empire and the first days of the Revolution.

[@heinoustentacles5719]

Rome has been in vogue since the renaissance.

[@shawnredmond8402]

@@heinoustentacles5719 ofcourse. But you can probably understand the difference between the 19th century Latin student's interest in Rome and the redpill Andrew Tate guy's interest in Rome.

[@RibbyCribby]

great video

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! Appreciate the positive feedback!

[@VincentJohnValentine]

For me, it was always in the background until I was 24. I was writing a short story and figured the back drop of Rome would be perfect for everything you described. Rome is almost the original sci-fi in that way. The near perfect well known, but impossible to fully know backdrop. I started from the beginning to find the right era of Rome. Regardless of the level of fiction inherent to the Kingdom, the idea that a city founded for and composed of all the outcasts and their first decree was mass human trafficking and rape was such a "0 to 100 only to slam the emergency brake" that I was hooked. Who the hell were these people that they intentionally made this their mythos? I'm still researching almost five years later - from light weekend research then to Latina Lingua and college courses now. My biggest thing: It's important to recall the horrid, from the practice of crucifixion all the way to Cato and the damned filibuster, and applaud the fascinating longevity in equal measure. To exemplify the boldness of C. Julius Caesar but temper yourself as to not exonerate certain travesties.

[@emanuelgaluk7844]

I don't know why people assume that a man who finds Rome interesting imagine themselve in that time. I just like to study it because the society that I live have the Roman civilization as its foundation. If your country are in or originates from western Europe (and a large part of eastern Europe too) you are descendant of that barbarian people that settled in the empire and absorved it's customs, religion, traditions and language becoming the european that we know today after some centuries. In that sense, we all are kind off romans

[@bruceroberts8614]

I've always thought of the Roman empire since I was a child, most of the reasons you pointed to in your video as well as some personal ones, I felt that I was Roman in spirit. As a martial artist I thought of Rome, my interest in philosophy, virtue(manliness) would conjure Rome, I was a U.S Marine, a former astrologer(Aries dominant)/pagan magician who invoked "Mars"! Now as a Christian, here I am still with Rome on my mind! There were times when I have engaged in extreme hedonism and excess, sex parties, drugs and just all out lewd and lascivious behavior, around the time the series Spartacus was on me and friends would jokingly role play as gladiators, speaking in the manner they did on the show, usually other guys would join in on the 'Spartacus speak", sigh fun time!

[@tribunateSPQR]

This is all excellent proof that those interested in Rome really have a wealth of material to choose from

[@kevinmcqueenie7420]

Thanks for raising this point. I wonder if this holds true across historical societies in general. Are men more interested in history overall? Does anyone have any insight into this?

[@Makaneek5060]

Sassanid Persia offers condolences to colleagues of all defeated Emperors, but informs them that there is a minimum suggested amount to donate for their reimbursement.

[@xxora6568]

As a Roman enjoyer myself I think its due to the propagandising surrounding rome that creates this ideal male that we feel is lacking in todays society and that we feel was abundant in Rome. Even though its just an ideal and probably false

[@mikkicarr5717]

I'm a woman who likes Rome! For me, my interest started with mythology and paganism, and then I became interested in how paganism collapsed (Julian best emperor!) and then it kinda spread out from there.

[@christopherviggiano9367]

I actually can trace my family history back to Ancient Rome and even to ancient Etruscan society through my sur name. If I was one of my ancestors I would in fact be a senator- and a supporter of Julius Caesar. However I think I remember reading that this ancestor was killed for his money by Augustus

[@CBrace527]

I'm not knowledgeable on this at all but I would love to know if men in Asia and Africa think about their past empires in the same way we think about Rome. Maybe you're right and the disappearance of Rome is key to maintaining fascination

[@perfectallycromulent]

it varies wildly from culture to culture and person to person. for example, there are hindu right-wingers in india who fantasize about the lost hindu empires of southeast asia and converting those lands back from whatever religions replaced hinduism (islam, christianity, buddhism, depending on where). on the other hand, the official doctrine of the communist chinese govt is that china never ever conquered anyone, unlike all the other evil empires. instead, non-chinese people were just so impressed by the superior chinese culture, they said "please assimilate us" with no need for violence (which is of course in contrast to the records of the past, where people were very vocal and proud about who they conquered and how they did it).

[@cryxibus]

The meme moved people in a remarkably silly way. Why isn't one of the follow-up questions, "What other empires do you think about?" or "What other history do you enjoy?"

[@gracchus7782]

Or even thinking to ask women the same question!

[@Insectoid_]

I’m gutted Domina was cancelled The sets alone made it worth watching

[@razy3227]

I've always been interested in Roman history. I think when I was a kid I loved the shiny armor, and troops, and dramatic speeches. Roman history to me seemed more like a dramatic epic play. Which I think that can be really appealing to young boys who like that whole 'history thing'. Like those boys into WW2 or medieval history. Then with age it's starts being about serious things like politics, military history, or religion. Which as you said you can really take anything from Roman History and believe whatever your 'thing' is about it. And those things in general are vary masculinized things. I think our culture makes the study of history, politics, and other things like that to be 'masculine'. Like if a woman is into these things it makes her seem more masculine unless it is through a more feminine hobby like sowing, or art. That's sorta the cultural pressure but also because generally it's like the two things women tend not to be into. Stories mostly centering around men doing military things. So the real complexity and lasting impact of Roman history is lost on most. Because also I guess Like most people don't know much about history but they will like it's 'aesthetics'. So Roman aesthetics don't really click for women who don't like stories mostly centering around men doing military things. But the reason why I'm still into Roman history now is more to do with those deeper questions about history. Like questions about current culture and philosophy. It's interesting to see a really ancient version of your culture acting completely differently than you do. Like the differences and similarities are so interesting. I'm also a pagan, so there's that, lmao.

[@andychap6283]

Found this one really interesting

[@tribunateSPQR]

Glad to hear that!

[@shironerisilk]

As a woman who always had an unexplainable attraction to Rome I've always been acutely aware of how Rome manages to be one of the least positive ancient/pre-modern societies when it comes to it's treatment of their women, both culturally and historically. You get more (powerful) women painted in a (somewhat) favorable light in the Ottoman Empire and Ancient China than in the Roman Empire. However, is not like any pre-modern society was ideal either, so for a woman who likes history, preferring a society over the other is basically a game of picking your poison, unlike for men (and women can fantasize about being sheltered aristocrats as much as men as well, vide the whole genre of historical romance, but that's a whole other conversation). I think my particular obsession comes from one point mentioned in the video, of how close Roman life feels to our own, a very palpable history. It's mythical yet contemporary, and I feel I manage to approach it in a holistic way not necessarily tied to my gender all the time - appreciating it just as a human being. The aesthetics are also so deeply ingrained into our own sensibilities that it's impossible not to like them. And finally, I come from a Latin culture, so I think the sense of familiriarity is even more unavoidable when your mother tongue was literally called the last flower of Latium. (Honorable mention of historians like Mary Beard as well, she definitely kept me from feeling weird about thinking about Rome this much even if Rome probably wouldn't like me very much IRL).

[@ChechiDLR]

As a woman, I find rome interesting. Maybe cuz I dont think in terms of feminist or patriarchal mindsets. I'm intrigued by their advancements, drama and decisions that both helped them prosper and fall. And the similarly to todays society can't be denied. I think most men also see that parallel and and often look to Rome to see where they failed so that they can possibly stop from making the same mistakes Rome made leading to their downfall. I've seen Rome be referenced all the time by men when they find a social or political shift that looks to bring a Western civilization collapse. They dont want to save Rome as some people keep stating, they want to save their own society. Rome is the last and most similar society (in terms of events) to us.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks for this interesting perspective - I totally agree that in some ways the disappearance of Rome has made it more relevant to the modern mind as it reminds everyone just what a precarious thing an empire really is

[@ryanrobinson5019]

I think there are some leaps here trying to connect male interest in Rome to daydreaming of what life would've been for them in the Roman upper class. I certainly don't think about Rome like that. To me, it's just interesting history.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

The point made at 9:29 is weird. There are still Italians living today and their genetics are almost identical to classical Rome.

[@gregoryfilin8040]

Italians are not Romans. There are at least 1500 years of kingdoms, values, and cultural differences between them. Mongols have had little change in 1000 years.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Yes, great point! What we were going for was that even though modern Italians are descendants of the Romans, the family lines are now unknown so we don’t know who is a Claudian or a Fabian any longer

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

@@tribunateSPQR I understand.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

@@gregoryfilin8040 For me they will always be Romans.

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@Ζήνων-ζ1ι our bad for not being more precise in the video

[@Emanonerewhon]

Brilliant video.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you!

[@M-J-qn8td]

Wow, I didn't know so many men were like me!!!!! But to answer your question: why Turks are dreaming of the Ottoman Empire? Why Arabs are still dreaming about the conquests in the centuries following the death of Muhammad? Why Western men of latin cultures (like Spaniards, French, Italians etc...) dream of the the time Latins were at their Zenith (while now.....)? Romans were so witty! Also, the law and politics are legacies of Roman laws and politics, both from the Republic and the Empire. My all time favorite "Political drama serie" was "I Claudius" (starring Derek Jacobi). And I always loved Peplums in general! When I first visited Rome back in 2002, I felt the rocks and the ruins were all telling me "Welcome back"!

[@tribunateSPQR]

I love "I, Claudius" as well. Fantastic drama even if the history is a bit suspect

[@ScapularSaves]

You are missing the Roman Empire per the Eastern Half within your analysis. There were some successor states as well. Constantinople (New Rome) lasted as the Roman Republic-Empire State until 1453 A.D.

[@spokenme08]

I’m a history nerd so I am often thinking of the Roman Empire though it is more the social-political history.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Then you’ve come to the right channel, our focus is on Roman society and culture- not its military

[@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723]

For Europe, ROME, represents civilization, structure, order, light and stability, progress is made for he whole not the few, For many Americans, they see the world in 2 sides the ancient Greek City states and the Roman Republic, they forget about the fall, the past wars, etc,

[@remimk]

Lets be honest. It's the outfits. Same as the Spartans. They just got cool outfits

[@jamesconnolly5164]

Why would modern Mongols have expertise that means they can contradict you? They don't necessarily know more about Ghengis Khan than anyone else. In fact, when he's venerated in Mongolia it's mostly for uniting the Mongol tribes. They don't talk about his atrocities and don't want to be reminded. He's like what Columbus was in the West 60 years ago.

[@MewxPro]

Fascinating video and thank you for your take on this subject, but I'll have to say one thing. Constantine XI was the last Roman Emperor.

[@tribunateSPQR]

We should definitely have specified "Western", this just shows how we need to do a video on the many competing claimants to the title of "Last Roman Emperor"

[@MewxPro]

@@tribunateSPQR I'd love to see that

[@jeffreyoliver4370]

Late to the game here but two comments: the notion that there was no legitimate heir to Rome; and than rome is unique in history in its qbility to inspire the following generations over the centuries. While it is true there is no modern legitimate heir to Rome, there were certainly legitimate heirs in late antiquity. Famously the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire was just the Roman Empire to its rulers and subjects. Even when that state no longer existed, the sultan claimed the title of Caesar of Rome. The descendants of the Byzantines called themselves 'Roman' until the birth of modern nationalism created the notion of the modern Hellene and the rebirth of Greece as a nation state. The Greek word 'Romaios' meaning Roman referred to the Greek-speaking Christian Roman Empire for at least as long as the word referred to the ancient city and its Latin-speaking population. I also noticed that Han China was casually dismissed, but in fact this empire arguably has the better claim to longevity and stronger impact, especially within its cultural sphere. Han China is the foundation for every native Chinese dynasty that followed, up to and including the modern PRC. Han China also provided the model state and society for its neighbors in Korea, Japan, and Vietnam. The Roman Catholic Church inherited the civil and legal structure of thevlate empire as well. Catholic moral law gas clear antecedents in Roman law, as in the concern to conduct a morally justified war (albeit with a veneer of Judeo- Christian theological justification to strengthen its argument). Even the Holy Roman Empire (pace Voltaire) embodied much of the Roman Empire. One simple proof is that there were no other emperors in medieval Europe aside from the Holy Roman Emperor: all others were kings, princes, grand dukes,etc. Only the end of the HRE at the hands Napoleon and the others who followed him saw them declare themselves emperors and empresses. We can argue about the Russian state (generally an Asian power in earlier centuries and apart from Europe proper) and certainly the emperor in Constantinople objected to this use of the title.

[@DestinyLabMusic]

Why the Roman Empire? I think many men think about all ancient civilizations in history not just Roman. Why do people think this is funny? I don’t get the joke.

[@tribunateSPQR]

I think you're right, men seem on the whole more interested in the ancient past but Rome's centrality in that story (especially in the West) means it is a bit overrepresented in study and analysis

[@marcelob.678]

A youtuber that focuses on rome that isnt a far right nut romanticizing the mythical past? Im actually shocked im very glad I found this channel.

[@AndDiracisHisProphet]

There are quite some more. Historia Civilis, The Historian's Craft and of course Told in Stone come to my mind.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you, really glad that you find our content useful! You're right though, it's a real shame how many conflate an appreciate for the past with uncritical respect for the societies of the time.

[@tribunateSPQR]

All great channels, it's an honor to be lumped in with them

[@AndDiracisHisProphet]

@@tribunateSPQRWell, it was meant as "not right wing nutters" not as a comment about the quality...being a physicist I am not really qualified to argue about that. But I really liked all your videos i have watched :)

[@jonsigwanz7993]

If I was born in Roman times I would've been a barbarian who had to fight against them.

[@starcapture3040]

the reason why i'm interested in rome is because the many archeological ruins rome left in my country yet I always felt it was far from me so I felt the need to understand it even as if on shallow level and it was Mary Beard a Female professor who is specialised in the subject that made rome history door opened for me and in its turn it opened for me the rabbit hole I felt studying about ancient rome was studying really old history but then I dig deeper and deeper from greece to Egypt than mesopotamia and I found how old things can get and how Fascinating and cool it is as subject to study and read about even as not specialist. but what make rome different that it is not super old to the point almost nothing survived. we still can see its legacy more clearly so it need less imaginative minds which make it easier to connect to but yet Rome was hijacked by Right-Wingers and Eurocentric for their delusional reasons. but I never thought about it in female or male way. but after thinking I believe females have an obsession ancient egypts.

[@nunyabiznes33]

Yeah, women seem to be obsessed with Egypt. I believe it's coz of the damn cats! 🔺🐈

[@WorthlessWinner]

I wonder if "men think about rome" is true in East asia, or has it's own version there ("men think about the han empire?")

[@tribunateSPQR]

I think it's mostly a western phenomenon - I know that in Korea they are still fascinated by the history of the Silla period

[@friedrichaugustiii3114]

@WorthlessWinner @tribunateSPQR The whole philosophical system of Confucianism was founded by some boys fantacizing about the Kingdom of Zhou and thinking "That's literally me!" :D

[@meowcatmeowkitty]

I (nb) find Roman things interesting because Belisarius is attractive. What else do you people need? (hj) More seriously, I'd like to say I have some high-minded reason like relevance to the modern world but honestly? Video games I love reference Rome and Rome-adjacent things. It makes me curious about the real history behind those- if for nothing else than to have a better chance at understanding the video game's story. You get a massive crush on the Pontifex Maximus of a fantasy Roman Empire (he's so loyal and honorable and affable and well-spoken and clever *squeal*) and you want to know every single thing about him, including things that aren't in the text. And then it turns out a real guy had that slew of traits (at least allegedly) and well. You're utterly hopeless then and suddenly you're staying up until 3 am cultivating a... Complicated parasocial relationship with Procopius. I'm... Not under the impression my answer will be very representative of greater trends :p

[@jakegarvin7634]

What do you mean there aren't any Italians?

[@sirarthurfiggis]

The video I watched very clearly argued that spaghetti does not exist

[@CrypticCustodian]

Bitcoiners love to think about the Roman empire

[@tribunateSPQR]

Both know a lot about currencies going bust

[@ackvendor]

So in a way, thinking about Roman Empire is guys’ way of being on copium?

[@tribunateSPQR]

For some, yes

[@chadvogel3594]

If you consider the Byzantine empire Roman there were actually three female rulers.

[@MrMarkOlson]

I find ancient Rome fascinating because it was the height of civilization in Europe before it fell into the backward Middle Ages.

[@reokobalta8839]

I want to be a legionari serving Ceasar.

[@jurassica369]

Came in a bit nervous about what I might be able to infer about this channel's broader taker on gender and women from this, but I'm relieved to have enjoyed it. Love this channel, thanks for all your work!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Glad you enjoyed it! Both of our wives were consulted on this script and fortunately they kept us from saying anything too stupid

[@jurassica369]

I think you touched on the reasons I had trepidation to begin with, which was nice to see. I've never thought too deeply about gender disparity in classics research/interest. My grade school experience was dominated by young girls like myself as leaders of Latin club and such, but that did start to shift in college towards male-dominated classrooms. Now I find myself really only ever talking about it with men. You've given me something to ponder 🤔@@tribunateSPQR

[@AndDiracisHisProphet]

@@tribunateSPQRok, now I am curious. What stupid DID you want to say?

[@soumyajitsingha9614]

Romans didnt dissapear they evolved into Italians

[@matthewct8167]

I’d be just a Pleb

[@tribunateSPQR]

You and me both -but knowing this is half the battle

[@Kuudere-Kun]

Fulvia is a Roman Woman who's presentation in the Ancient Sources doesn't fit either side of that Madonna-Whore Complex you alluded to. She's easy to overlook but she's treated as a supporting character in the stories of Men (or people assigned male at birth) form Clodius to Mark Antony, but we know then to reframe the story with her as the lead character without really needing to invent much. I disagree with the assessment that Rome ceases to exist, that no modern states can claim to direct descend form Rome. I have a Blog post all about how Rome simply involved into the State of modern Western Europe. I find ti particularly silly how you referred to literal Biological descendants of Mongolians as proof they still exist in the modern world a way Rome does not. Do you think the people living in Italy during Roman Times were just completely Genocided by the Ostrogoths and Lombards? No they were not and I have personally documented how many famous Ancient Romans are direct ancestors of Charlemagne who had descendants still alive today. More importantly then that countless people still speak Rome's language, it simply involved into new languages the same way English did.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

materialisteschatology.blogspot.com/2024/03/rome-didnt-end-it-simply-changed.html

[@onceamusician5408]

I think we men identify with Emperors etc for a more vain reason than what you suggest. we men WORSHIP POWER I know I certainly do, and even though i made it clear on another vid of yours that i am convinced Christian my view of God Almighty is very much like Iovi Pater or a celestial Roman Emperor Also, for your consideration,. we men are given to patrolling borders. As women usually stay in the house we men are out patrolling the borders and history is patrolling the borders of TIME as for myself i no longer admire Rome. The Bible views it as the beast with the iron teeth that devours everything - the 4th beast of the prophet Daniel's vision and as my thinking moves more and more in line with the bible yet still Rome , that iron beast, still fascinates

[@cristhianramirez6939]

Its not that deep bro, men like Rome because men like history more than women. Women like other things, ITS OK

[@nicolasclermont893]

It is based.

[@sirarthurfiggis]

NON BELLVM SED CLASSIS FEMINAE AMIRITE

[@phillg2222]

Será que eu não sou homem então?

[@Ptolemarch]

Você é DEVO! (Por favor, perdoe meu português do Google Translate.)

[@greenghoul157]

I prefer ancient Egypt, it was nicer to women and their gods were original not stolen and the Sumerians because iltam zumra rashupti ilatim

[@tudormarginean4776]

Nah, I only care about generals and tbeir legions

[@gobgaming2725]

The peak of masculinity is knowledge of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire.

[@fabiorosario3501]

Well Rome still exists... its the EU.

[@liviubajan6804]

I have to disagree with the senator idea. Men think about roman empire because of the thing we owe them. Men live in a world of thing, women live in a world of people. The world we live in is molded from the world of Rome. Concrete, obviously, heated floors, senate, roads and I can speak for days. History was horrible, but a little bit less for roman citizens. And don't forget Romans brought roads and technology in different parts of the world, tho, their influence was massive.

[@DiomedesDioscuro]

Give us a break. I couldn't stand t it any longer, there's my 👎

[@MatthewChenault]

The reason for the strong inclination of males to admire Rome compared to women comes down to how men and women think. Men tend to view the world more as them entering into a competition that they have to prove themselves in. This is why men often like to admire great historical figures - such as Julius Caesar, Marcus Tullius Cicero, and so on - and absorb the world around them. Women tend focus more on themselves and how they can best exploit the world around them with as little effort as possible. Hence their focus on fashion and current social trends. Imagine, if you will, a man and a woman went to the horse races. The man and woman would think of two, distinct ways. The man attending the horse race - and watching the races - would wish to become the rider winning the race. The woman attending the same race would wish to be treated like the steeds on parade. She would wish to be lauded over by the crowds and admired for her complexion and good, physical qualities. This same mentality applies to most subjects. Women - more often than not - don’t care about understanding these societies over their desire to be admired for their personal qualities. Men - more often than not - care about understanding these societies because - in understanding them - he could have a greater edge over his rivals and come to learn the secret of how one becomes great. This, of course, is a general trend. There are exceptions on both sides, with some women being intrigued with these topics while some men only care about themselves. This doesn’t mean that women are “dumb” or that they’rr purely “selfish,” but that it’s a common trend for women to focus more on themselves and care less about these topics. It is why some women get upset when men say they think about the Roman Empire all the time; they would rather you think about them over something they think is “silly” or “unimportant.”

[@thejosiebuchananchannel5671]

UNSUBSCRIBED

[@David-8x1x8]

Boring and misleading opinion piece. Unsubscribing.