Why Caesar Committed Genocide (and Why He was Proud of It)

[@tribunateSPQR]

What criteria can we use to judge the morality of actions from the ancient past? Can we even judge them at all?

[@faramund9865]

From the context of their time. Simply ask, how did other peoples around them act and think.

[@rexbanner7256]

Why even try? Don't ask questions you don't want the answers to, or already know the answer to.

[@EPICFAILKING1]

No, we cannot. Modern concepts and values do not apply to history under ANY circumstances. It's that simple.

[@ozymandiasultor9480]

No. Our moral norms, values, and worldviews are so different that we can't apply those to people and their actions and deeds, people who lived more than 2,000 years ago.

[@jedediahmyers7495]

By the dissenting voices within their own society is a big start. Tacitus was my introduction to Rome and is the primary reason I have a very negative view of the Empire ("They make a desolation and call it peace." - Tacitus). This works for many cultures. The victims of the Assyrian Empire. The rather impressive self-awareness of the Greeks on their culture's history of naked will to power ("The weak suffer what they must" - Thucydides). The relative tolerance and benevolence of the Persian Empire ("And in any locality where survivors may now be living, the people are to provide them with silver and gold, with goods and livestock" - Ezra quoting Cyrus the Great). The invention of human dignity is not a modern invention. It is reflected in many writers in antiquity, back even to the bronze age ("To bring about the law of righteousness in the land so that the strong may not harm the weak." - The Code of Hammurabi). It may have waxed and waned or been ignored, but believing in the inherent value of human life is not something we made up in the 18th century. It's an old idea, and I firmly believe we can judge people by that standard.

[@benitoharrycollmann132]

It's an unfortunate truth that many peoples, tribes, and nations have been condemned to the abyss of history for the simple fact of lack of writing. The Gauls and Germans had no means with which to record their struggle against the Romans. The victors aren't the ones who write the history books, the scribes do the writing for them. Another awesome video, Tribunate. Keep em coming!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Gallic religion and culture was organized around druidic learning that was all based on oral tradition - Caesar coopted or killed these druids and much of its history was lost in the process.

[@mueezadam8438]

Moreover it’s suspicious that the Romans claim they allowed Gauls, Germans, Britons, etc into the city and yet there is a suspicious lack of writing in any of the aforementioned regions that wasn’t indigenous like the Norse Runes- implying that, unlike Iberia, (which quickly picked up writing from the Phoenicians) the Romans were not so keen on sharing the gifts of knowledge like other actually great empires such as the Mycenaeans, Visigoths, etc. did with their neighbours. We are to believe that the Rhine which was integral to virtually every religion, government, and society in Germania was devoid of temples and the like, when it seems more likely that these structures were cleared to keep the empire’s garrison safe from attack. Which in and of itself is a self-fulfilling prophecy “we’re going to take taxes and land from you and give them to bolster to soldiers so that we are safe from all the raiders” I don’t think the European frontier was filled with an inordinate amount of warrior cultures, I think that’s pretty much the only society which could even exist in such stifling conditions

[@dabityrenc7829]

​@@mueezadam8438While Roman expansion was certainly much more cruent and less two-sided than, say, Greek colonisation, I think that some points need to be nuanced. Germanic Runes almost certainly come from an Italic script, with many favouring Latin itself as the probable source. This is a similar situation with Iberian script, which is actually more removed from the source, as while it borrows symbols from Phoenician and Greek, it is neither an abjad (like Phoenician) nor a true alphabet (like Greek), but a semi-syllabary. As for Gaulish, it had kong been written using Greek characters and it continued being written in Latin script for the centuries to come, up to the IVth century CE, apparently.

[@xhagast]

The final judgement was written. By the Germanic tribes that destroyed the empire and the spent a millennium squatting on the ruins. Rome was IT and the barbarians, Germans, Goths, Huns, even Asterix' Gauls, were nothing. Just because they were all generic wandering hordes unable to build ANYTHING. Rome GAVE.

[@MatthewChenault]

You can admire Caesar’s military genius, but still believe Caesar did many things we would consider cruel and detestable. That is not contradictory, but necessary.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Fully agree. The willingness of too many to place actions from the past beyond the scope of our judgement is ultimately harmful to the historian’s efforts

[@legowifey4773]

why is it ?

[@thomasdaywalt7735]

He's is a military genius but at the same time a pragmatist And his morality is usually ambiguous

[@evanthesquirrel]

He treated his soldiers like men, which was huge for the time. To consider anybody at all but one's self. Compare that to Crassus's selfishness at scale.

[@identifiesas65.wheresmyche95]

​​​@@thomasdaywalt7735causing and letting children starve to death en masse for personal gain is fairly universally accepted as being in poor taste, and it seems difficult to try and justify it or interpret it as anything but poor taste.

[@ldamoff]

You brush up against the point but it seems worth mentioning, if only because it can be so difficult for modern observers to think in these terms. But Caesar is an unreliable narrator on these matters, not because we can expect him to downplay or justify his brutality, but because he is likely to have exaggerated it. No doubt the questions regarding how we engage in the moral aspects of the ancient past still stand, but it adds a level of complexity to our assessment as well. Caesar may or may not been as effective at committing genocide as he claimed, but that he would seek to portray himself as such is itself noteworthy.

[@tribunateSPQR]

You're right, we should have included a few lines about the disputed nature of Caesar's numbers in the commentaries. The figures from his commentaries are almost certainly exaggerated, but we sought to take him at his word here and since there aren't any agreed upon numbers for these specific incidents thought it best to use the sources. Ultimately the exact numbers mattered less to us than conveying the horror of mass death and using the war as a pretext for talking about how best to judge actions from the past.

[@maxsonthonax1020]

​@@tribunateSPQR It's probably a subject worth examining itself: on what points would Caesar be motivated to exaggerate & which to downplay, based on Roman norms.

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

​@@maxsonthonax1020AFAIK it didn't change much. He'd exaggerate combatants and omit non-combatants. Didn't he face a riot in Rome for marching kids as prisoners of war?

[@AniTube-ds8uz]

@@DrVictorVasconcelosI think what you are referring too is one of Ceaser’s Triumph’s, specifically the North African-Triumph, he had the King of Numedia (now a kid since his dad committed suicide after the North African battle led by Scipio and Cato) march in his Triumph, and the Romans seeing how Caesar was celebrating the death of Romans and the death of Cato already weren’t fans of this specific Triumph since it was a civil war and many Roman’s’ families would’ve been on the opposing side aka dead, especially since Caesar’s own soldiers went against his orders and massacred the defeated unarmed Roman soldiers once they’ve already surrendered. Shit was a mess. But yeah it was the kid-King of Numidia. Also I think he was going to kill/sacrifice the kid like he did the Vercingetorix.

[@bakters]

" *he is likely to have exaggerated it* " Exactly. But that tells us, that what he has done was not immoral.

[@ramondulvur]

There's a song by Jacek Kaczmarski, which in translation goes something like this: The heavy step of the legions thunders over Europe The end of the republic is inevitable The Gallic hills rot in mixed blood And Julius Caesar writes his diaries ... Let us, Caesar, when we conquer the whole world Rape, rob, satisfy all desires Soldiers' simple requests have been the same for years And Julius Caesar does not forbid fun in silence ... The new order civilizes the conquered nations Crosses grow along the roads from the Rhine to the Nile The whole world resounds with complaints, screams and tears And Julius Caesar practices conciseness of style

[@rasklaat2]

He hadn't written his memoirs out of vanity. It was PR move to justify the Gaul campaign to Romans. And he probably didn't write it all by himself, either. He had scribes for this. Also, the Roman Republic was doomed anyway. Caesar, a war criminal as he was, was a genius. He would reform Rome and made it great if he wasn't assassinated.

[@xhagast]

Other people's were Before the Gauls drowned them in blood The Romans wrote of the Gauls The Huns will drown the Romans History will drown them and forget Rape, rob and satisfy all desires Soldiers' simple requests have been the same for years What have the Romans ever done for us? The aqueduct? And the sanitation. And the roads The whole world resounds with complaints, screams and tears While we enjoy what Rome built for all of us And Julius Caesar dies at the hands of friends and those he spared And the world drowns in blood again and again It doesn't rhyme but it is true. What have the Romans ever done for us? It is safe to walk the streets at night. They were the only ones who could keep order in a place like THAT.

[@idk_6385]

I love the point about how trivializing the suffering of the Gauls with "it was a different time" ignores the fact that many people had a problem with Caesars actions at that very time. I doubt a mother wailed any less at the death of her child to a foreign hand than they do today

[@joriankell1983]

"current year" fallacy. It happens with people who don't understand that morality is objective and is not predicated on the date

[@Geo-Global-oz5kl]

@@joriankell1983 Copium doesn't win arguments, sorry.

[@colejames423]

@@joriankell1983 how can you possibly make the statement/argument that "morality is objective?"

[@joriankell1983]

@colejames423 easily.

[@colejames423]

@@joriankell1983 not as easily as someone with 3 brain cells can debunk it

[@mra4521]

In terms of raw violence, it seems Octavian dei Augusti truly was his great grand uncle’s son.

[@tribunateSPQR]

His guiding principle was that Caesar was too lenient towards enemies. No surprise he ended up with so much blood on his hands

[@nebojsag.5871]

@@tribunateSPQR Caesar *was* obscenely lenient to his *Roman* enemies. Not so much anyone else.

[@MisterJang0]

The farther away a historical event is from our time, the more people tend to think it was meant to happen.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Well said - we tend to view things that happened before our time as not just inevitable but necessary. The farther back the event, the stronger this impulse is.

[@FPSIreland2]

Just like the Gaelic Aristocracy in Ireland. Most Irish people view its collapse as inevitable, while really it was just sheer blind luck that England won at Kinsale.

[@matthewct8167]

This is what it means to truly love, Roman civilization and history in general. To actively inquire on the human condition of these eras and events. In his greatest triumphs, and deepest moments.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you for your kind words. We're passionate about Rome and all history - celebrating the achievements but also not shying away from aspects that no one should emulate. Only a comprehensive analysis of history allows us to actually learn from the past.

[@kets4443]

It's what it truly means to have an interest in history

[@Ashurbanipal7446]

Well if you lack the belief that all people are in possession of one equal human nature or believe that the commons are culpable for the sins of their authorities, its not too difficult to imagine yourself doing such a thing.

[@gaddielzelaznog9434]

Great story telling and editing, keep up the great work! You good sir just gained a new fan/sub :)

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you so much! We're very appreciative of your support!

[@andreamarino6010]

In Italy we obviosly take great pride of our roman ancestors (for example even metro stops are named after roman empereors). If you don't study history by yourself, Italian school never mention massacres (for the exception of Carthage and Jerusalem), Caesar is seen as another national hero. An important what if should be, if Gauls were pacified without a genocide, which in the biggest numbers reach as far as 1 million, how it would impact Roman defense with so more recruits avalaible

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks for this comment. In America we are also presented with sanitized version of our national heroes

[@andreamarino6010]

@@tribunateSPQR yeah but in the US the link is also very political. Every normal american would start to ask questions on why the US dropped more tons of bomb on Laos, neutral country, than nazi germany, or why they still have a blockade on Cuba. Roman action even though can be still be "heard" (we got France now, thanks Caesar), can be de sanitized and shown as what they were. I think the main problem is also sources, nothing remains of a gallic prespective of the gallic wars

[@Musicvidsetc]

@@tribunateSPQR Bullshit. No, we are not. For decades now American education has emphasized rather than downplayed the failings of the great men who made us into a great country. Do you really think anyone doesn't know that Washington and Jefferson were slave owners? You know whose heroes are sanitized? The Left's - whether they are American or not. For example, how many people know that the FDR administration refuse asylum to an entire boat load of Jews trying to escape Nazi Germany who eventually were all murdered. And that wasn't 200 years ago.

[@RibbyCribby]

god damn this was a brutal one. great video, i had never learned much about rome's actual military conquests

[@tribunateSPQR]

I know this one was particularly joyful, but we felt it was important to show this darker side of Rome, especially as the "why men think about Rome" people insist on presenting a sanitized version of Roman history. Glad that you found it informative

[@jaskrip]

​@@tribunateSPQR This kind of content is a breath of fresh air. Harsh truth presented in a way that makes you analyze the character of Caesar. An incredibly interesting historical figure but also a man capable of some of the most hideous atrocities imaginable. Lots of people interested in Roman history downplay the brutality of the Romans. Hell, many are straight up ignorant about just how far they could take things. On the polar opposite, I have seen certain people describe Rome as an "empire of psychopaths" which to me is just plain silly, not to mention a massive misunderstanding of what antisocial personality disorder actually is.

[@antlerbraum2881]

This is a very well articulated video, glad I found this channel!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! Very glad the almighty algorithm showed us to you

[@sugar_walls]

i could have fixed him

[@thevisitor1012]

The stacy Cleopatra: "I can make him worse"

[@ghostyghost8318]

LOL

[@kevinmcqueenie7420]

I always feel sorrow that due to a lack of literacy and also the means of recording and preserving writing being either rare or inaccessible, we have lost the voices of most "ordinary people" throughout history. The "Great Man" only goes so far in telling us of the time they lived in, especially as these people were largely from an elite group that had a vastly different life to the general populace. Caesar is fascinating, but I want to know more about life as most of us would have experienced it had we lived back then. It is frustrating we have so little of that, to me.

[@tribunateSPQR]

It really is a shame how few surviving sources there are for the non-elite. Our most recent video takes this on directly and looks at Roman graves which do offer the best primary source on the lives of the ancient romans kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGq6aZVsp6Z5hJYsi=sxZrP2HoygrzjcjY

[@SeanHH1986]

well this was certainly a hell of a video

[@tribunateSPQR]

Out of all the videos we have done so far this was the toughest one to write and record. Thank you for sticking with it despite the grim subject matter

[@josephthomasjr.6551]

"What millions died that Caesar might be great"--Thomas Campbell (1777 to 1844). So much HORROR conveyed in so few words!

[@WorthlessWinner]

The only reason the Gauls didn't like what Caesar did is that he did it to them. If they were doing it to some other tribe, they'd see it as good. They presumably saw it as good when they invaded Rome in the time of Marius and before that, just as the Romans (for all their praise of their own conquests) saw it as evil when the Celts invaded them back then. "The standards of the day" do seem to have been a general thing, but they were relative; "what helps my tribe is good, what hurts my tribe is bad."

[@tribunateSPQR]

Yes, we didn't want to argue that the Gauls were more moral than Caesar, they likely would have committed many of these same atrocities either against other tribe or Rome itself had they been able. However, I don't feel like this excuses Caesar's actions

[@WorthlessWinner]

@@tribunateSPQR true. But what determined which groups did evil to which other groups seems to have mostly been based on who had the power to do it, not on a moral difference. Some exceptions exist of course - not ancient, but I recently read about the Moriori refusing to fight the Maori, which was a genuine difference in values leading one side to be the victim - but usually it's just power that determines who is victim and who is oppressor =/

[@faramund9865]

Agreed.

[@purshottamadevadhikar5035]

​@tribunateSPQR I feel like it excuses them somewhat. The Romans were still paranoid about invasions from the Gauls. And Caesar may very well have been thinking "If I do this to these people, they can't do it to my people".

[@celsus7979]

Securing the empire's future and Caesar's personal ambition aligned perfectly. The threat of another barbarian invasion of the empire was real. After 75 years of relative peace and total military dominance we've forgotten how unpredictable and dangerous life was back then. It was to conquer or eventually to be conquered. Ariovistus was the immediate threat. Letting him dominate Gaul carried the risk of a powerful new empire just across the Alps. In the aftermath of that war it would be unwise to leave a power vacuum for another pretender to take advantage of. Caesar welcomed a chance to make history and prestige, just like the Gaul leaders did. Be it the British, Gaul or German tribes, they all longed for a chance at fame and fortune. To pacify a culture like that you needed to be brutal so they won't dare continue. Hirishima and Nagasaki come to mind. Caesar was ambitious, oppertunistic and ruthless but not sadistic, vengeful or filled with bloodlust. After all he turned out to be one of the few leaders of the classical world who showed mercy on a large scale when the threat seemed over. It cost him his life.

[@rakaman27]

You can tell Vercingetorix didn't understand who he was dealing with when he kicked people out of Alecia and expected Caesar to take them in.

[@jedediahmyers7495]

This is a very good video. There is a lot of interesting aspects of Rome. But I find that people who love Rome as if it is a fandom tend to write off Roman cruelty as being characteristic of their time and place without much investigation of other cultures and their practices. Empire is, by nature, violence. And Roman, even in the context of it's era, was extraordinary in it's naked brutality, to the disgust of many of it's own citizens. Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium .... ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant. "To rape, to slaughter, to plunder, these things they call "imperium".... They make a desolation, and call it peace." - Tacitus, placing a speech against the Empire in the mouth of a British Chieftain There are no heroes and villains in history. There are traits we can admire, but we cannot forget that Rome was not aspirational (though they have things that can be aspired to).

[@waltonsmith7210]

Its amazing that those people want to erase the humanity and forget the eloquence of Roman critics of the Roman Empire.

[@tribunateSPQR]

People who do this will make blanket statements like "everyone thought this way" but intentionally exclude everyone who disagreed from their definition of "everyone"

[@tribunateSPQR]

Well said, we alluded to the Tacitus quote but couldn't find a good spot for it this one. Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@jedediahmyers7495]

@@tribunateSPQR I hope you one day get to cover Tacitus' work more on the channel. A portrait of a historian as much as the events he covered.

[@AniTube-ds8uz]

@@tribunateSPQR I’ve never understood the notion that millions of people around the world somehow collectively agreed that slavery, rape, and plunder were acceptable. Yes, these practices were part of the time, and no doubt many people supported them or were indifferent, but there were also those who opposed them-and we have evidence of that. So, when people throw out blanket statements like ‘it was part of the times’ to demonstrate their supposed understanding of history, I think it actually reveals the opposite. It shows an unwillingness to challenge their beliefs, a reliance on oversimplified assumptions about things they don’t fully understand, and a refusal to put in the effort to deeply examine what happened and why. Honestly, it just seems lazy and misguided to me.

[@galaxyn3214]

Researching this stuff is what made the atheist historian Tom Holland become convinced that the rise of Christian morality in the empire was far more of a ethical paradigm shift than he initially realized.

[@tribunateSPQR]

I think this tracks to a certain extent, Caesar was in many ways the “best” that a man could be according to the values and norms of his time. But it’s clear that he still falls woefully short of what we would consider a model for emulation

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

Lol bc Christians never caused genocides. Didn’t know that about Holland.. always figured he was Christian.

[@jimmyalfonda3536]

As if the Christians didn't commit similar atrocities against jews, Muslims, and even other Christians who were religious the wrong way. Secularism made Europe (somewhat) less barbaric. Christianity just changed the form of barbarity.

[@noelyanes2455]

“Woe to the conquered”- Brennus, King of the Sennone Gauls.

[@faramund9865]

While I do grief what happened, I think it's important to recognize that Gauls would applaud this too simply if it was their leader eho destroyed the Latin enemy.

[@tribunateSPQR]

We fully agree, but don't believe it is an adequate rationale for Caesar's actions and the intentional targeting of noncombatants

[@therealestg9]

@@tribunateSPQR The Gauls terrorized and sacked Rome 300 years prior to this event. I think the Roman people did not forget past wrongs very easily.

[@дахкил]

@@therealestg9 thats like USA invading Great Britain today for their past wars.

[@illerac84]

@@therealestg9 Woe to the vanquished indeed.

[@AniTube-ds8uz]

@@therealestg9 That may be true for the past, but what matters now is how we view history through a “moral lens”. It’s not just about who committed acts like genocide or enslavement, but about recognizing that these actions, in themselves, are reprehensible and shouldn’t be dismissed or praised. As mentioned in the video, it’s crucial to try and understand the human element in these events. Yes, Caesar committed horrific acts that caused immense suffering, but we also need to consider the historical context to better grasp what happened. Many focus solely on the latter, ignoring the former, and in doing so, I believe they miss the full picture.

[@StanGB]

Another great video, well thought out

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks!

[@kanhaibhatt913]

The strong do what they like. Strength is all. Historical law supercedes moral law at every turn.

[@Tinil0]

Thanks for this video. Often times people can be so entranced by stories of the past and places like Rome and people like Julius Caesar that they can forget to contextualize them with the fact that the millions of unnamed, unmentioned people were still people, all who had their own lives, all of whom are just as valuable as the figures we lionize. It's unfortunate but a LOT of people try to use Rome and Caesar as exemplars without acknowledging the fucked up stuff that happened in the name of providing for the elite. Although it does end up kinda funny to see conservatives try to justify modern policy off of their ignorant ideas of Rome and especially of Caesar who was about as anti-conservative as one could get at the time.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Well said - our previous content has been very pro-Caesar as by and large we feel that his domestic reform agenda was far superior to the one offered by Cato and his reactionary clique but when Caesar was operating outside of Rome he still adopted traditional Roman imperialist attitudes. He was sophisticated enough to advocate for greater rights within his community but was a product of his time in thinking that anyone outside of Rome wasn't quite fully human in the same way a citizen was

[@Tinil0]

@@tribunateSPQR I guess my biggest unanswered question about Caesar would be what his personal motivations were regarding his domestic agenda. Did he ACTUALLY care about the plebians and want to make life better for them? Or was it, from the start, a naked political move that his brilliant strategic mind knew would be the best way to attain power. We know he was absolutely laser-focused on attaining power from very early on in life, and by sorta going all in on representing the Populares causes (Except when he needed to make compromises with his opponents) it absolutely worked in vaulting him to heights only last seen with the Gracchi...But we also see how that ended for the Gracchi brothers, so I don't know if it would appeal to him as the "perfect" strategy, much more a risky strategy that could easily get him killed, especially with so many powerful Optimates like Cicero, Cato the Younger, Pompey later on, etc (Is there some good place to get a list of roman senators from any given time, like the late republic? I'm not well versed enough to just remember all the major figures, and theoretically there are lists of most of them, right?). Obviously I don't think there can be any answer since he was a master at propoganda and I doubt we could ever take anything he said or wrote at face value just due to the fact it was all for his pursuit of power. But he almost definitely had SOME personal views, whatever they may be, even if he didn't share them and was willing to compromise them. I'd love to think that deep down he actually did care for some of the lower classes (He obviously saw slaves like most Romans did, as more or less subhuman, but you can't win them all I guess) and part of his desire for power is just the basic knowledge that you can't affect change without power. IIRC the Julii got hard hit by the Sulla proscriptions so it would make some sense if he felt a life long drive to limit the power of the more conservative senatorial class...but it's just impossible to say, huh? Sorry for throwing all this at you in a comment haha

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@Tinil0Happy to lend my 2 cents to this: I believe Caesar was actually a fairly conventional politician at the start of his career, though inclined toward popular causes he was no radical and his moves that ran counter to constitutional precedent were carried out in reaction to his opponents also flouting constitutional norms. Read Robert Morstein-Marx’s excellent “Julius Caesar and the Roman people” for a thorough defense of this view. As for the ideas that shaped him - here we must rely more on conjecture. Arthur Kahn’s “the education of Julius Caesar” is my favorite biography of the man and it goes into great detail looking at the religious and philosophical influences that would have shaped Caesar’s worldview

[@letsdothis9063]

WTF are you going on about? You did get one thing correct. Julius Caesar is no conservative. I can't imagine any conservatives that would identify with him, or Use him to justify policies????

[@jasonhelfrick4020]

@@Tinil0 I can tell ur a woke millennial just by ur point of view. What a shame

[@timlist1178]

I think modern opinions of the past are so skewed by the modern concept of “peace” which is an idea that’s barely 100 years old. Before then I think everyone across every culture understood it was conquer or be conquered.

[@tribunateSPQR]

In the words of Hobbes "The war of all against all"

[@DreamersOfReality]

No? Not all peoples thought that way.

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

Fair

[@laisphinto6372]

Also its bullshit WE dont have Peace today WE Had wars in the Balkans all the time, africa IS filled with wars, the middle east AS well.

[@joriankell1983]

The word "peace" was first recorded in English use sometime before 1160 AD. It comes from a few different root words, most notably the Latin word "Pax", so your comment makes no sense at all. The concept has existed for centuries, not just one. If you're smoking something, pass that shit, it sounds potent.

[@hugodesrosiers-plaisance3156]

As always, your material is masterfully articulated, your points are clear, and the whole piece is very thought provoking in the best possible way. ••• The main point I'm taking away: "What he did was acceptable in his time" Acceptable to WHOM? Thank you for your work. Cheers, friend. ✌️

[@waltonsmith7210]

It sucks because Caesar was generally on the more populist side of things and his opponents in Rome were generally worse.

[@tribunateSPQR]

We’re firmly in Caesar’s camp when it comes to domestic Roman politics, but it is disappointing how he (and every other Roman) viewed foreigners as unworthy of an basic human dignity

[@lastrationalist7890]

You'll find out that many so-called "populists" (even ones that lean towards the left) are like this throughout history. It's an unfortunate fact but for most of history, helping out the "people" meant only helping out other people who were same nationality as you. Anyone considered an "outsider" was to be treated with utter suspicion at best and with genocidial intent (and action) at worse. An aspect of human history that most people just refuse to believe because of how cruel it is.

[@lastrationalist7890]

@@tribunateSPQR The same could be said about US president Andrew Jackson. His campaign and promises as president was that he wanted to breakup the big banking institutions at the time because now much they were preying on the average citizen and forcing them into deep debt. He was also a strong defender of democratic values by supporting more checks and balances in the government. But everyone should know how he treated Native American tribes (Trail of Tears, anyone?). It's an unfortunate fact that many self-proclaimed "populists" were also some of the worst towards anyone they considered an "outsider."

[@paullowman9131]

@@tribunateSPQR I agree with this sentiment, but the Gauls, Germans and others were every bit as savage; doesn't make genocide right, but it kind of puts things in perspective.

[@MrMirville]

He was a Democrat so to speak, continuing the social reformist impetus introduced by the Gracchi, while his contenders were Republicans so to speak for whom fortunes and divine favours were synonymous. But his genius, albeit a perverted and cruel one, was to see that he could not win the game by himself in Rome but that in the Rhone valley, which was already the theatre of a perpetual inter-tribal war he could be the victor and become emperor imposing his model of governance. As he put it, better be the first among the villagers of Gaul than only the second in Rome. He didn't feel guilty for all that blood shed because the blood was about to flow on any way as it had always done in rivers. He managed to emerge from that bloodshed as a winner of bodies and souls alike. It can be said that the first beta version of the Roman Empire was founded in Gaul by surfing the camp in best position to win once for all to end the game, provided they had a good leader and training. He made half the Rhone valley Gauls into legionaries to kill the other half. The other half were also compromised with the Romans as well, but of the other side.

[@wimokaharawira8443]

This should be fundamentally how history is used. Identifying what we did wrong to guide future decisions.

[@xornxenophon3652]

Well, whether something is "right" or "wrong" depends a lot on perspective and your goals. Today, we claim to have high moral standards but have no real problem with letting people starve or die from diseases that could be easily cured as long as they are not part of our nation. It could well be that men in 200 years will see this as a barbaric and amoral behaviour.

[@wimokaharawira8443]

@@xornxenophon3652 Well said, I guess my prospective is a lower socioeconomic one. Having the ability to understand opposing viewpoints should be the basis of a modern society

[@xornxenophon3652]

@@wimokaharawira8443 I am not sure whether people are lacking in understanding. They mostly just want to be right, even if they are not. A devout christian will possibly feel provoked by the very existence of atheists and gay people, while some those may have no tolerance for nationalists or people who do not care about climate-change.

[@simoneroach6354]

@@xornxenophon3652this is a bit unfair when considering that most of those govts don’t actually seem to care about their own people. The west raise money themselves so they can get innoculations, contraception, disease prevention and medicines and also water wells whilst their lazy governments do nothing.

[@joriankell1983]

​@@xornxenophon3652morality is objective.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

A great reminder 😢

[@Magplar]

another BRILLIANT video from you guys! this is the roman content that youtube so desperately needed!

[@tribunateSPQR]

thanks so much! We feel that though the Romans are fascinating - its necessary to adopt a critical stance since so much pop history (esp. on KZbin) will leave people thinking they were unequivocally the good guys

[@K55365]

'A little bit of genocide never hurt nobody' - Julius Ceasar

[@David0Izzy]

As someone with a huge interest in human history due it's richness and nuances, I'm really happy I found your channel. You manage to cover these topics from all points of view and convey them in a way that's easy to follow along. That's rare to find and after watching a few of your videos, I can confidently say you are my favorite historian. I hope the best for your channel so that your thoughts reach more people One thing I was curious about while watching this video, how could Caesar have stated that the Gallic Wars started in 58 BCE if it was still before the time of Christ?

[@jamestown8398]

The Gauls did not approve of being conquered, enslaved, or slaughtered. But the reason they disapproved was because that was happening to them, not because they considered those acts inherently wrong. The Gauls were just fine committing those acts against others. In the film * Aguirre, the Wrath of God* , there is one scene where an enslaved Incan reveals to one of the Spaniards, before the fall of the Incan Empire, he himself was a nobleman and a slaver. He reflected that he became a victim of the wrong he previously inflicted on others.

[@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl]

What ceaser did in gaul went beyond the normal even by gaul standards, wiping out entire tribes wasn't normal to the gauls who usually forced other tribes to pay tribute or displaced them at most

[@Rafael_Mena_Ill]

The point falls flat when you realize that Aguirre is a movie and that the Inca did not in fact take slaves. All nations, kingdoms and empires are capable of great evil, but even in their evil there are degrees.

[@-1-285]

how is this channel not 1 Million subscribers, i just discovered it and I love it

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! Support like this means a ton so maybe we will get there in a decade or so

[@Merikat07]

This is video has some of the best insights into the human condition that I have ever heard

[@RomaInvicta202]

I only found your channel today and I'm already a big fan. The entire history of humanity is filled with scenes similar to the ones you described. Quite similar things are still happening until today in some regions of the world. Are they bad? Of course. Is there a point in any moral judgement of people like Ceasar or Gengis Khan? I don't think so, it won't change anything at all. As horrific as destroyin Native Americans' nations was, we have no way of punishing the offenders Personally I believe that our moral development which is what actually makes us civilized (not shinny machines) doesn't keep up with our technological progress and while it's of course lamentable there's very little we can do about it. All important conflicts post WW" were based on lies on the side of the attackers: Vietnam War, USSR's Afghanistan War, 2nd Iraq War, conflict in Palestine, the current war in Ukraine - besides few soldiers none of the REAL perpetrators was ever punished in any way. They're honored and acclaimed, make tours and give lectures to students. All this while we're busy pretending we're good people. No, I cannot condemn Julius Ceasar if we're still not any better

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks for the detailed reply - very glad you're enjoying the channel! I fully agree that "we" speaking broadly aren't any better which undercuts our society's ability to fully indict the Romans but I also feel that as someone who takes issue with these things you can condemn both the ancient and modern practices that fall short of universal ideals. We are products of our society yes, but we can also stand apart from them and work to reform them.

[@Kurdtzdopelgangr]

I'll admit to feeling a bit worried at first when I first heard you describing lots of Caesar's actions leading up to the civil war in a sympathetic light. In the leadup, I think he demonstrated quite often that he wasn't all that concerned with diffusing tensions with the conservatives, and in fact he seemed to revel in his own accomplishments and sense of grandeur in his messages to the senate. This is just my opinion, but my reading of the man is that he didn't feel all that conflicted when the civil war started. He tried peace, but he also wasn't overly concerned about the collateral damage a civil war would cause. He usually put himself first. This is all to say that I'm very glad to see you describe what Caesar did in Gaul as a genocide, because I've seen many historians hesitate to do so. When I see Julius Caesar I see a brilliant but stereotypically vain Roman aristocrat who was very clearly not a firm supporter of Rome's popular government.

[@saberpat7]

A fantastic and thought provoking video!

[@jaskrip]

Do you plan on making a video on the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and the later campaigns in Germania? I used to hate Arminius and see him as a traitor but when you read more thoroughly, I can't truly blame the guy tbh

[@tribunateSPQR]

That's a great idea! We have tried to steer clear of military history as there are so many bigger channels that handle those topics (and often quite well). But we could certainly do one on the social and economic backdrop of Roman expansion into Germany and why Arminius would have been driven to betray the Romans. I agree with you that he made the correct decision in light of the brutality of Roman imperialism

[@jaskrip]

@@tribunateSPQR ​ Agreed, Roman military history is well documented by many youtubers. While it's certainly fascinating and easily what Rome is most known for, I personally find the social, political and economic side of Roman history a lot more interesting.

[@samuelkohi4415]

He was a trqitpr TO ROME, but he was A HERO to his people.

[@charliebates9098]

Love your work you have a brilliant way of looking at history

[@Robofussin23]

Great video so far, but I hate to disappoint.. the “dedication” at the end of Rambo III is false, apparently. Was listening to a podcast and they said they were surprised but it was photoshopped later on lol I was devastated, it’s one of the best end credits.

[@tribunateSPQR]

...I'm questioning everything right now

[@Robofussin23]

@@tribunateSPQR I was in the exact mental state lol

[@gi1dor]

Ramo III has the dedication, it says "This film is dedicated to the gallant people of Afghanistan" (just checked it). So to be honest doesn't look very different from the photoshopped one in the context of the movie, when they, well, show a fight of people, who call themselves as "mujahideen".

[@truthhertz10]

Very good video, just one thing at the end it's not killing/enslaving me for economic prosperity to my region. It's killing/enslaving me for economic prosperity to my regions elites and colonizers while I and my descendants are forced to serve them as basically slaves. Subscribed.

[@cristianespinal9917]

Ironic that the Romans attribute to their Gallic conqueror, Brennus, the famous line, "vae victis". Caesar sure knew how to bring woe to the vanquished.

[@pbohearn]

Upon his victorious entering to Rome, following his crushing victory, an old sage walked up to him and said, “well you’ve got all the gall don’t you?”

[@GrimCreeper27]

I’m impressed this is extremely well said/worded

[@Warmaker01]

Your wrapup to the video is wonderful. Nobody would agree to those terms.

[@BESTINTHEWORLD0007]

What he did in Gaul was extreme, even back at the day

[@edankriss141]

What matters is that you separate the dispassionate analysis of events with your value judgements, rather than mixing them as though your judgements should be considered equally with the historic record.

[@sliefox9453]

If you’ve read/listened to Caesar’s own thoughts/words you really get the sense that he was not a war monger but a man trying to make a name for himself by conquering and subduing. In his diary he tries to be “fair” and explain the situation as best as possible. You have to understand also that the Gallic people are very proud and strong people. They will not surrender as easy like other nations. So when you have an enemy that won’t surrender you have to beat them down hard they don’t get up. It’s sad but it’s also warfare

[@mahalallel2012]

I'm pretty sure when the Vandals/Barbarians invaded Rome, they were motivated by the memory of their ancestors that suffered. Note: They put an end to the 'gladiator games' that was basically wholesale human sacrifice of non-Romans, dressed up as an entertainment/sport for the public.

[@tribunateSPQR]

I've actually been considering a video on how Rome's self-professed hatred of human sacrifice was all really just PR branding since they had such an affinity for judicial murder

[@samuelkohi4415]

Last gladiatotial games were held in 404 AD amd Vandals conquered Rome in 455 AD. They did not conquer Rome because of their ancestors. They did it to amass wealth for themselves as well as they kidnapped the Roman empress who was to be married to Vandal prince Huneric.

[@nobblkpraetorian5623]

Weren't gladiatorial games outlawed as a result of Rome turning to Christianity?

[@samuelkohi4415]

@@nobblkpraetorian5623 no.

[@allank8497]

the arguments about how it was justified in order to bring the imperial culture and material comfort are still made todya to justify imperialism. its actually very disheartening

[@charleshulsey3103]

That horse wearing a tiger skin looks cool AF.

[@cliffhoelzer6895]

Cruelty, as policy, was inflicted on part by Rome, to reduce rebellion, taking modern judgement aside. Rome calculated such harsh actions would reduce widespread rebellion in the future. It did seem to work with Spartacus and the Gauls. Not morally justified but correct in Rome's view to maintain Empire.

[@samuelkohi4415]

It did not work with Spain, Britain and Germany

[@soumyajitsingha9614]

Stop bringing out the Southern US slavery as something justifiable because at that time people were so disgusted by the injustices that people like John Brown who first hand experienced the brutal treatment of slaves

[@tribunateSPQR]

Our point is that US slavery is unjustifiable under any circumstances- as was Roman slavery. We’re big fans of John Brown here

[@laisphinto6372]

One thing to remind yourself is that the other option to slavery in ancient wars was genocide that's why civilizations tended to enslave and barbarians tended to slaughter the captives since they had no use for mass amounts of slaves

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

@@laisphinto6372why didn’t barbarians have use for money from selling slaves?

[@joriankell1983]

​@@tribunateSPQRBut it was a different time, you can't judge it by modern standards! Be consistent, dude.

[@ChrisBarber-b2r]

Lol, including the writings of Cicero, Cato, and Pompey, the most prolific writer about the life of Julius Caesar is Julius Caesar.

[@jassynewaz9849]

What a great video

[@bakters]

I disagree with this moral analysis. If you asked a Gaul mother what is going to happen in case they lose, she would have given you the correct answer, most likely. If you asked a Helvetian mother what is going to happen in case they managed to defeat the Romans, she would've likely also given you the correct answer. "We are going to capture all of them and sell them into slavery, then subjugate some other tribe and take away all their food." Basically, if what Caesar did was acceptable to *Gaul morals* , he did not commit any war crimes. And it was acceptable. The siege of Alyssia kinda proves it.

[@JP345etc]

On the other hand, none of these genocidal strategies were particular to Caesar. The same had happened to the Etruscans, Samnites, Carthaginians, and the same would happen to the Corinthians, etc. etc.

[@veila0924]

Neither the Etruscans nor the Samnites underwent genocide actually.

[@jonsigwanz7993]

Thank you so much I'm writing a report on how the Gallic War was a genocide for my class and I found your video both educational and very interesting.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Dakotastx]

This is a complicated one for me. Caesar may have been extreme even at the time but frankly ancient wars were just more brutal in many respects. No international laws and very few mutual understandings meant the bigger savage usually won out in the end

[@Genets210]

I've always thought that if Caesar had been an honourable man he would've given Vercingetorix, a worthy general and a heroic freedom fighter, an honourable death. But he wasn't. He was a petty narcissist who's ego would only be sated by giving Vercingetorix years of impoverished confinement and a brutal and humiliating death in front of thousands. To be clear this is not close to the worst of Caesar's crimes, but I think it says a lot about him.

[@dragonlotion1789]

No need to moralize for the viewers, bring us the facts and let us come to our own judgements. I came to hear facts about Caesar not moral interpretation. That’s said I’ve appreciated the videos you’ve produced thus far.

[@0MVR_0]

Caesar was acutely aware of the ills he unleashed on the world, both as a question of whether Romans would ever suffer the fate of his victims and on the notion that his independent instigation of belligerence was contrastive to the intentions of the senate.

[@djionmustard5921]

I saw someone talking about Megalopolis on tiktok (of course its on tiktok) say "For more historical context Julius Caesar was actually really based because he restributed land and wealth" Sure man and Hitler was actually really based because he was anti smoking and made life better and easier for the average German. I completely understand people approving of some of Julius Caesar's Political Acts like laws but hearing someone refer to him as "Based" really my blood boil. The man wrote an entire book bragging about all the Gallic Tribes he wiped from the face of existence how does one refer to such a man as "Based"

[@MrWolfstar8]

The lesson of war is the strong take what they will from the weak. Best not to be weak.

[@SpaceMarine500]

The Arab caliphates would go on to do the exact same thing in the Middle East, especially in terms of the cultural genocide.

[@samblackstone3400]

The caliphs proved so successful at eliminating minority populations that to question the ethnic demographic history in a near eastern region is now seen as offensive.

[@wudafek8561]

There were no genocides by the Arabs. I think you mean the Turks.

[@veila0924]

The Arabs did not commit genocide mate. They did inflict pain and misery of course, but no genocide a la the Romans took place. It took many centuries of Arabization for the peoples of North Africa and the Levant to become majority Arab, and even despite more than a millennia there still remains tons of non-Arabized Copts, Assyrians, Amazighs, etc. I don't even understand why'd you bring up the Caliphates other than perhaps a tad of Islamophobia.

[@SpaceMarine500]

@@veila0924 This is the worst low IQ stance possible. 'Islamophobia' is not real and you have no business using this against me who's an atheist in Muslim-majority Bangladesh. I know better than you what this faith is all about. The Caliphates were theocratic empires that deserve every bit of criticism possible in every way, shape, and form. Pretending otherwise makes you a hypocritical hack. Those Copts, Assyrians, and Amazighs you speak of have been ground to minorities over CENTURIES of Arab cultural supremacy enforced by a brutal belief system. It is cultural genocide. Don't embarrass yourself.

[@SpaceMarine500]

@@veila0924 You are nothing but a hypocritical hack lmao. 'Islamophobia' is not real. Get over it. The Caliphates were theocratic empires run by Arab supremacy that presided over the slow elimination of cultures in the Middle East.

[@MrJMB122]

So, from my perspective, I look at the context of the time and place in history along with their religious and philosophical moral systems. Then we can at least get into the framework of how they're thinking and how they moralize their actions. Manju I am not a moral relevanist Because you do see a string of universal, especially in the ancient period around certain actions.

[@hollywoodpotato5289]

His haircut remains timeless and stylish.

[@Orianna_Bumssen321]

What makes the situation more horrowing is Caesar using pinning the Sennones' sack of rome to all Gauls. Gauls are a not a unified people, whatever the Sennones did to the Romans, aint got nothing to other tribes, cuz some didnt create beef with rome personally. That would be like getting nuked by North Korea and in retalion nuke South Korea too, because they happen Korean as well. Despite South Korea ain't really doing anything and it was North Korea who hit first.

[@CantusTropus]

It's simple: our modern Western morality is based on Christianity. Even if you aren't a Christian yourself, if you live in the Western World, then there's a 99% chance that your morals are heavily inspired by it. A pagan man would be unlikely to have a moral problem with killing large numbers of foreigners - after all, they're not his people, and it might even be a good way to earn glory and wealth. We've become so used to Christian morality that we forget that ideas like "care for others, even if they're not part of your tribe" are in fact very radical, and are not shared by the majority of the world. Certainly they were not shared by pre-Christian Europeans, who saw no particular problem with, say, owning slaves or killing foreigners.

[@veila0924]

These values are not even shared by Christians mate, what are you saying? Christians have committed countless genocides and enslaved millions.

[@brentmoore262]

"The desire for greater riches as well as keeping their hands won out"

[@charliebrown4799]

@0:11 If firefighters fight fires And crime fighters fight crime What do freedom fighters fight?

[@Vito-yp5wh]

The use of BCE and CE is a sign of historical dishonesty.

[@EvanHBogle]

How?

[@michaelmitlow772]

​@@EvanHBogle Because we are all in and living under the calendar of Christ. Atheists and non-christians try to dilute the calender but they can't escape it.

[@Vito-yp5wh]

@EvanHBogle For several reasons: I) Misleading, II) Unnecessary, III) Tampers against chronology, III) invites other unnecessary dating systems, IV) AD has worked fine, III) Detracts from the reforms already done to the AD system, V) BCE and CE improves nothing.

[@bkohatl]

Celts invaded Rome in 390 BC under Brennus killing 100,000's. Celts supported the Samnites and Etruscans against Rome which killed 100,000's. Some Celts supported Hannibal's invasion of Italy which killed almost 1,000,000, probably. Some Celts supported the Cimbrian of the Cimbric War (113-101 BC) which was fought between the Roman Republic and the Germanic and Celtic tribes of the Cimbri and the Teutons, Ambrones and Tigurini, killing 100,000's more. Julius Caesar simply put an end to Celtic/Gallic invasions of Rome. Unlike Evangelical Puritan English General Oliver Cromwell who invaded Irish Catholic Ireland and exterminated 1/3 of the population, 1,000,000 Irish Catholic farmers and shepherds, wives and children, Cromwell committed pure genocide out of pure racism. He turned the reamaining 2,000,000 Irish Catholics into slaves with no human or civil rights, giving their land to English and Scottish absentee landlords and settlers.

[@johncarroll772]

You are so accurate with your numbers 😉

[@jeffreybrannen9465]

Well done. Helpful information and advice about a “valueless approach” to history. Pronunciation point: CAValry is horse-mounted troops. CALvary is where Jesus was crucified. 🙂

[@larryenticer7695]

Generic moralizing about the atrocities of an ancient war feels like the most useless way to fill a video. When I call a man of History "Great", I am making no moral judgement, I use the term as a way to express scale, not virtue. The Ancient world was a cruel competition, but I choose to celebrate the winners for their admirable qualities, not signal my virtue by condemning their atrocities.

[@mueezadam8438]

Many empires are embarrassingly inefficient. They siphon wealth and surpress local culture that it’s not impressive that their culture and cities are the most popular.

[@wouefn]

Up to the postwar, genocides were considered a good thing, because it brought peace to the genocider's people. That's why Julius Caesar's alleged genocide of the Gauls (most historians think he exaggerated the numbers) boosted his popularity so much in Rome (the very fact that he may have fabricated the numbers upwards already demonstrates genocides were seen as a positive thing among the Roman populus). The very concept of genocide; and of genocide as a bad thing is essentially a post-WWII invention/cultural change/innovation.

[@WorthlessWinner]

I think you're oversimplifying things. Thucydides seems to depict the depopulation of whole towns as an evil thing, centuries before Julius was born. People like Darwin criticized what they saw as genocides in the 19th century. Our current views are massively shaped by WW2 but weren't created out of nothing by it.

[@tribunateSPQR]

That was definitely something we considered in making the video -- that in various historical sources from all across the world, numbers like "one million" often get used as a substitute for saying "a lot." Definitely something we might revisit in its own video. Thanks for watching! - Titus

[@DreamersOfReality]

Definitely a sweeping broad generalizarion that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[@samuelkohi4415]

It did NOT bring peace to the Gauls. It brought peace TO ROME AND CAESAR HIMSELF. The Gauls were vonstantly revolting following the conquest until the 5th century AD. Gaul was NOT a peaceful province at all. Also, a lot of Gauls left to Britain, Ireland and Central Europe to escape Rome.

[@zenomtfr]

​@@DreamersOfRealityExplain then

[@stephengavin2208]

To think Sulla could have prevented all of this. Heck the pirates that captured ceaser really could have altered history as well.

[@erichstocker8358]

The long moralizing at the beginning is not history. The Gauls were as brutal as the Romans and maybe at times more so. Modern people destroying the planet has no call to moralize whether the Romans were "moral" in conquering their world. Each state does what it needs or wants for its existence. The USA is just like Rome in wanting economic dominance in the world. However, the parameters in which we can operate are just more reduced than during the 2 and 1st century BC.

[@Tar-Earendil]

Nice pseudo intellectual bigotry you burbed out here. Cringe-worthy 🥴👍 But i had a good laugh as well.

[@シルバケビン]

I understand what he did, he wanted to leave his mark in history He once stood in front of a statue of alexander the great and cryed , because he was with the same age as Alexander and didn't conquered nothing. You knew his time was running out because of his age and his epilepsy ( without any medication can be lethal) War is about the brutality of man, it doesn't not matter what you trying to do to make look " civilized" it will be something really ugly in the past, present and future. Your loss is my gain, after the 1,000,00 gauls are dead it means there was alot land free which ceasar gifted all his retaried veterans along a very lange some of money, now they can live the rest of there lifes with there familys and be self sustaining. With 1,000,00 gauls dead, 1,000,00 sold into slavery and the other 1,000,00 left alone meant only one thing gaul could be safely anex , because now it was too weak to revolt.

[@シルバケビン]

Do you know something? More than 2000 years after his death people still put flowers where his body was cremeded Back in Rome.

[@smal750]

extremely exagerated numbers

[@シルバケビン]

@@smal750 that's what I heard, I'm not a historian but I think Cesar himself said that so take it a grain of salt

[@Mulambdaline1]

You bring up great moral and philosophical questions! As a fan and lover of all things Roman, this was a hard video to watch.

[@thesenate5913]

Caesar was a general above all, and most great generals of the past have made horrendous or callous acts upon countless people may it be soldiers or civilians. If you like Caesar as a historical figure, don’t exclude his dark acts and motivations, and this applies to every great historical figure out there.

[@WorthlessWinner]

It really annoys me that Julius Caesar did such evil stuff in Gaul, because he seems like one of the less evil people in the ancient world! I want at least one guy from the past I can root for! He was probably less evil than most of the Gauls he killed but that doesn't say much =/

[@tribunateSPQR]

I really feel that he was about as "good" of a person as it was possible to be at that time - however committing genocide is a pretty big dealbreaker for us

[@sirarthurfiggis]

It is, though it's not without its savage merits, and they are; where it gets really complicated is at the individual level @@pandakicker1

[@tribunateSPQR]

I can't find a flaw in that argument. -Titus@@pandakicker1

[@mrscanners.8888]

Spartacus was a breath of fresh air from the ancient world, Escaped from a Gladiator school, freed lots of slaves , only killed solider's roman solider's who were sent to kill them or imprison them again

[@gi1dor]

@@mrscanners.8888 Slave rebellions were always extremely violent, and everyone from the population was affected, Did they ever have slaves or not.

[@RandomPerson28337]

And these are the ancient men to look up to?

[@sameerthakur720]

Caesar was kind and forgiving to his enemies in Rome. That is what mattered to him and to all Romans. They did not care about the Gauls or other "barbarians".

[@minotaur818]

I mean... have you ever known someone who comitted genocide and regrets it?

[@thomasroewer5673]

Gaius Julius Caesar has to be seen as populistic tyrant, and his rise resembles that of Napoleon Bonaparte a lot. And both were the forerunners of the likes of Mussolini, Stalin, and Hitler.

[@S.D.323]

Honestly Brutus and Cassius shouldn't have been put in the lowest circle of Hell by Dante the man they killed was no saint

Ceasar was a great man for Romans. He was a cruel man for those that were not Romans. Such was his way.

[@Dabshanks]

The Gauls did sack Rome before I believe more than once . The Romans did not take a loss to lightly

[@samuelkohi4415]

Just once in 387 BC

[@Dabshanks]

@@samuelkohi4415 and the Gauls did fight against Rome with Hannibal. So believe the Gauls had it coming

[@Tar-Earendil]

What an ignorant thing to say! 🤦​@@Dabshanks

[@dennisbrown5313]

yet the Gaul's spared all the civilians and didn't even enslave them. A vast difference, no?

[@samuelkohi4415]

@@dennisbrown5313 Gauls were RAIDING not conquering. There were some slaves they took obviously, but the Romans did not write about it.

[@joeydelrio]

ceaser was a brutal killer in Gaul against people he didnt even know, but in the civil wars ceasar was exceptionally forgiving and compassionate to his backstabbing enemies who were corrupt as hell. statements like this is when you have to call BS. and it doesnt help that rome had a long history of inserting political propaganda into their history.

[@deathdome2572]

Caesar was a hero, even if the same thing happened today many would support him

[@Cagliostro81]

Of course, I mean, who wouldn’t follow the Divine Jvlivs?

[@rw3899]

Ofcourse you'd think of him as a hero! All the surviving sources think so! No one would dare to question the external circumstances of the sources!

[@KhalerJex]

the descriptions match those of today in gaza.

[@tribunateSPQR]

The horrors men commit to build empires on the backs of the oppress have changed very little in 2000 years.

[@Ahaaaaaaaa-i2p]

@@tribunateSPQRur stupid if your comparing the two

[@sj-uc9ke]

Where are the reparations for the Germanic tribes? Where are the museums? Why isn’t it part of every curriculum?

[@TheLurker1647]

What did Brennus say when he threw his sword upon the scales when he sacked Rome? "Vae Victus"

[@mueezadam8438]

And then he left. Meanwhile Rome was out there salting the earth of their enemies

[@dennisbrown5313]

Yet he spared all the Romans civilians and didn't even enslave them - the horror.

[@Trumpulator]

I wish to be Emporer Diocletian. Make it so.

[@frankbarron1907]

British Imperialism? What about Ottoman Imperialism? Or Chinese Imperialism? Japanese Imperialism? Mali? Songhai? Persian? Aztec? Inca? On and on… Westerners didn’t invent imperialism. Why do we discuss these issues as if the West is somehow to blame for it?