Why Most Players (myself included) Have Trouble Beating NOITA

[@TheStone190]

I found myself revisiting noita after 2 years when I played about 30h. By my 150th hour I am able to have 5h long runs, expecting myself to rage when I'd eventually die. Died to my own stupidity backtracking near acid trap with electricity perk. But instead of rage or sadness, I just felt at peace. I had a great time.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Mina may die, but Those moments live forever!

[@coyallen5310]

Amazing video. 10/10 I finally got past the metal base (didn't notice they took 0.1x damage on projectile attacks until I checked the wiki) . As a new player I would also recommend that new players take a sec after each death and think of what SITUATION made them die and not the ACTION. "fighting next to explosives is dangerous" vs "the enemy missed me and hit the explosive". Doing that makes it easier to remember/notice when the situation might happen again (at least for me).

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Great advice!! Yea disarming explosives is a big one! And damage types. Thanks for your suppprt

[@DrEidolon]

This guy has a lot of the bad habits he talks about

[@slayereli13]

if you like the thrill of discovering your own cheese dont look up anything until you get 1 win

[@slayereli13]

also bind your kick key to a mouse button so you can reflexively kick things when you need to

[@sethb3090]

Listen, I know I overextend in the coal pits and snowy depths, you don't have to tell me that

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Okay. I won’t. I promise!

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

In all seriousness Coal Pits you can stay as long as you want! Lost of gold. Lots of chances for wands and hearts! Easy enemies. Snowy Depths however…. I will never intentionally stay in that biome longer than I need to. On long runs I get OP just to destroy that entire biome for revenge on all the scars it gave me! At lease Base and Jungle got stuff I want!

[@sethb3090]

@@calmlittlebuddy3721 honestly my normal issue is getting in trouble in Fungal Cavern, not Depths or even its temple side area. I'll frequently cross the lava at the start to drop down to Snowy Depths and try to steal a relatively good wand early. I can do Depths fine as long as I don't overstay my welcome looking for everything.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

@@sethb3090 not me. I get Ukko’d or trapped by 2 Executives lmao. Even in this video I drop in and they’re on me!

[@sethb3090]

@@calmlittlebuddy3721 skill issue lmao (okay but seriously, I usually clear to the holy mountain exit with starting wands and whatever I pick up during my thieving raid, so it's easier later).

[@oneoranota]

Learning from outside sources is fine, but it's not mandatory. I enjoy playing Noita. I enjoy losing an otherwise great run because I was tempted by that "free" leggy perk.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Right. This is more for the people who are struggling and don’t enjoy it. I do state in the video, losing in NOITA and playing sub optimally is part of the joys of it. But continuing to die in Snowy Depths run after run with the notion that eventually you will get good enough to skill your way past it and on to the boss without either an extreme amount of suffering and failure or doing a few hours of research/video watching on how to get through all this easier for many players is joyless. I’ve tried telling folks to “just enjoy the game” and not worry so much. They said “But what if I just want to win ONE TIME or at least get close?!?!” This is for folks who asked me that.

[@0bashie]

don't see why the people in the comments are so mad, this is a wiki game and that's all there is to it, some games you just can't beat without the wiki OR spending thousands of hours trying to understand it alone

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

It was more about my tone. I had to cut an intro where I was half mockingly saying NOITA is a perfect game. The recent commenter was VERY nice and informed. The earlier ones were more offended by my tone initially I think. But I appreciate your support!!

[@Malkovith2]

I hope this doesn't across as arrogant. I was able to beat the game as a lone wolf. I didn't expect the game to be something that it isn't. I took it as it was, but I took it slowly and carefully. That's the key. Of course I have gotten so much better by watching other players, but the main path is totally doable alone, if you have the right mindset.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Yep. And I do say that in the video. Some folks can. But with less than 10% of all players in steam getting the achievement for killing Kolmi, most players can’t just skill up and win. The “you” I am speaking to is me and players like me. The most common thing I hear is “I’ve got over 100 hours and I usually don’t even make it to the base and have never made it past it. “ And like you said, watching other players helps tremendously and counts as doing research. If you managed to win multiple times without watching anyone or looking stuff up you’d be a great resource for others. You could make a video showing the things you figured out. Players like me need all the help we can get!

[@fxshlein]

I'll preface this by saying that I haven't invested that much time into Noita, so I can only take what you said about the progress at face value. But I think the idea of having to look up knowledge outside the game before being able to beat it is a sign of bad game design. I think generally a game should teach players everything they need to beat it. You'll maybe have the odd spot where people get stuck and have to look up something, but it sounds like you really miss _a lot_ of stuff here. I can't imagine the Developers simply glossed over this, and I'm sure that, given enough time, you can probably also figure Noita out by yourself. But the pace at which this is possible is really important, and as you said yourself, you tried this for a long time, and finally "gave up". Personally, I really enjoy the game, and I don't mind slowly figuring out stuff myself and eventually beating it. But I can imagine that, if I really wanted to beat the game now, this would be a really frustrating experience. A casual player wants to play a game because they want to play a game, not because they want to watch twitch, browse a forum, or chat on discord. And this only works if you can learn everything you need to know while playing, at a pace that doesn't feel like you're not progressing. (Also, I think to the regular/beginner player this feels like a flaw of the game, but you are really excited about it, and present it as a feature. I 100% get what you mean, and this is exactly the experience some people want, but this might also play into the seemingly "elitist" tone other commenters mentioned.)

[@fxshlein]

Nice video tho! Truly one of these classic "650 view videos randomly suggested on the start page" that have way better quality than you expect lol

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Unfortunately, much of the game including some of the most amazing places, fights and quests have taken an e tire community to figure out and there’s still many more secrets we haven’t solved. Generally I agree with you. BUT in this case looking things up doesn’t feel that bad when you do some of the awesome things you can do. The story of the gave us about alchemy which is esoteric and requires its students to pass down secrets to the new generation of aspiring alchemists to continue the process. And by look stuff up, I mean learn in any way including watching live streams and videos. Could spend a year or two learning the game on your own and some people do. But many more just quit without giving it a try using a little help. It’s still super frigging cool to do some of the quests even fully spoiled because of how powerful you’ll feel. This video is more for the folks who want to beat the boss, can’t and are wondering why they consistently fail in trying, assuming just playing it enough will get them over the hump

[@fxshlein]

​@@calmlittlebuddy3721 Yeah, I mean, I totally get the appeal. After all, back in the day, you also had to look up Minecraft crafting recipes, for example. I only got into Noita because I saw a friend play it, and I mainly needed something to do while waiting for my code to compile. So I mainly play in intervals of 10 minutes before I tab out and do something else for a while - probably not the most efficient way to play and learn the game 😄 But for that reason, looking cool and being fun to jump around in was the only requirement I had of the game going in; I didn't even know of all the amazing stuff there is beyond that. I never even had the intention of playing to beat the boss, and I fully went into it with the idea of it being more of a sandbox to just play around and explore in. So I don't mind just slowly discovering new stuff.

[@Trainlizardfan2002]

That's fair, but personally I love looking stuff up and using the knowledge I've gained to aid me. Noita just really scratches that itch, reminding me of games like Terraria. You can call it bad game design if you want, and you might honestly be right, but this is a kind of game that I dont see very often, and I'll treasure it for what it is.

[@fxshlein]

@@Trainlizardfan2002 Yeah totally agree, this is exactly the experience some players are looking for. But for others this could be frustrating. And don't get me wrong, I also really enjoy the game lol.

[@andresarokhanian6065]

Hey man. Don’t give up. I’ve died 1200 times and beat the game 7 times. I’m actually kind of proud with that. Whether or not that is sad, I don’t know and don’t care. I’m not a bitch who gives up.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Thanks! I’m actually fine now w the game. I win about 60% of my runs and have done sun quest etc. but it took a LONG time to get the right idea which was to learn from the players who could do all the crazy stuff. No sense in getting upset over dying in this game! It happen!

[@MrFelixFB]

nah they'll figure it out eventually

[@MrFelixFB]

i'll learn how to use divide by's eventually

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Only 10% of people who bought the game on steam killed Kolmi and he’s like the tutorial. In my stream, DunkOrSlam’s and LetsSuffer’s stream there’s a constant flow of people who can’t get past Hiisi Base or Jungle. Learning from the community gets results.

[@blue3094]

the issue isn't the pride of the players because those same players have no issue opening 100s of wiki pages for games such as terraria or binding of isaac. I genuinely love this game and have sunk hundreds of hours into it but I must say that this game has many design flaws, for example even though this is a game that is considered a commiunity game it doesn't feel like it was designed with that in mind at all, it feels like the developers made a game with bad communication and passing issues that is just being supported by the existence of a wiki and a community. this is me speaking as a game developer here but if you ask me when a game has the issue that many many people just can't get the hang of it, not learn it or master it just to get the hang of it and realize what the game is asking of them and in what mindset they must be, that is an issue of the developer for having poor communication not the player.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

And the developers of Noita completely understand that. There are many parts of the code that are extremely buggy, flawed and broken. Some of which they admit may be so past fixing that they won’t touch them. But those aspects aren’t what’s causing average players (like me initially, less so now) to fail. It’s that there isn’t much in the game to explain or hint at what’s causing the difficulty spikes or how to avoid or eliminate the spikes. Isaac, you get an item, there’s a little hint, off you go and wow, it does something! Noita, you grab a perk that says it narrows spread on wands and now you get injured from a healing spell. For over 100 hours I never knew about parallel worlds, or that there was fungal shifting, or Greek letter spells, or shops in the sky and in hell, that freeze would allow you to one shot some bosses w melee, that chainsaw could make a wand into a machine gun… Sure, I’d look up something I knew to look up but with noita many times you don’t even KNOW what to look up without impeding yourself in the community. Just curious if you’ve ever watch a stream w DunkOrSlam. Watching his stream has ‘flipped the switch’ for hundreds maybe thousands of players. It’s like oh!!! I get this game now! Even I, the below average gamer, can beat it and do the secret quests! And the secretive part is intentional by the devs as it is a game about being a budding alchemist. You need to learn from those who came before you OR spend literally thousands of hours experimenting only to find out you could have asked the guy next door and saved a lot of pain. And the community is really a bunch of wonderfully nice folks. I’m definitely not the poster child for it which is why I point Fury, LetsSuffer and Dunk. At 200 hours in I quit and said what you say. Bad game design. Arrogant devs. At 300 hours I changed my mind. Flawed code, buggy stuff aside, the overall design is pretty cool once it clicks. If it clicks at all. Some people hate it even more once they see that, yeah, this is by design. The devs gate the content by forcing you to become an obsessed experimenter or a copy cat. I have a similar beef w games like Jump King. 35 possible inputs per jump at 60 frames per second? To me it’s bad game design. But to folks who live for pixel perfect platforming, it’s a masterpiece. So yea, I get what you’re saying. But the video isn’t to convince people who dislike the design of the games merit. It’s more like the message I needed to hear when I was struggling to get to Jungle 230 hours in. Thanks for your comment. Always good to have discussions about stuff like this.

[@blue3094]

@@calmlittlebuddy3721 I 100% agree with all of your points and honestly I would recommend this video to anyone who wants to start the game. I just think that Noita is a case of a game created by the developers with not much design behind it. because some of the technical things in this game are just AMAZING, like the fact that the world itself exists with no loading is enough to make me go "WOOOOOOW". but unfortunately from a design point of view the game is quite... flawed as you pointed out too. it just hurts to see something that has so much potential fall victim to a few mistake, the biggest of which devs confusing the concept of an open game with natural discovery and learning with the concept of leaving the player in a dark warehouse and breaking their legs. and obviously no hard feelings towards the devs this is still a really good game but unfortunately it isn't one that I can really recommend to anyone because it's so hard to play a game that doesn't want to be played.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

@@blue3094 although I disagree about the level to which NOITA succeeds as a game, I think you nailed it with “a game that doesn’t want to be played”!!!! I loled so hard people at work stared at me! It’s one that I do recommend but with 2 caveats. Get it on sale because many folks play it just long enough to get past the 2 hour return window before seeing it’s definitely not for them, and 2 it is not for everyone so people should definitely do their due diligence before buying lol. For me it was worth it. It was like buying 3 games. A platformer I enjoyed for 20 hours and quit. A roguelites I enjoyed for 200 hours then quit in anger. And a sandbox physics simulator I fell in love with once I beat the main boss and didn’t care what happened next as long as it was new and “fun” including some really ridiculously heartbreaking deaths/corrupted files. But that’s a very subjective experience and in no way going to be what most people get from it. Only 10% beat Kolmi. Only 50% get past Snowy Depths. Not because they can’t play games. Because the game like you said is actively built to not be played organically even with hundreds of hours.

[@RossPfeiffer]

I was about to say, if this dude don't mention dunk or slam i'm turning off the video.

[@dutchthenightmonkey3457]

dunk or slam watchers vs fury forge enjoyers (yk the meme lol) (this is obviously a joke I love and watch both)

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

Dunk is my hero

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

@@dutchthenightmonkey3457 It’s like chocolate and peanut butter. Or right Twix left Twix. I think I write this hungry.

[@chrismanuel9768]

I can't watch this. A minute in and it's dripping with... I don't know. Egotism? Elitism? First impressions are important, and this doesn't leave a good impression.

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

It’s over the top. 100%. lol. I think I may have done too much of an exaggerated tone! lol. Honestly I thought it was obvious when I died 2 min in I was being cheeky. I mean I die twice and never beat the boss. I point to the other streamers and creators not myself as the experts. I admit it never got past jungle 200 hours in.

[@journeytorainbownights]

git gud chud

[@Stdvwr]

so much elitism it's impossible to watch

[@calmlittlebuddy3721]

How so? I I’m not claiming anyone is elite. Quite the opposite. You can’t be “elite” at NOITA without community help! I even show me dying twice and not winning! lol. If anything the game is the elite. EDIT: I rewatched the intro. Yea, I lay it on thick but it’s tongue in cheek. And I do mention it took me 250 hours to beat the game due to the very mistakes I point out which is WAY off of “elite” play.

[@jeremiahschwartz1930]

I agree with you, i had to stop half way through because it felt like he was telling me how stupid i was for playing the game without his help, and then proceeds to take forever to even tell me anything of value. Very condescending tone overall too.

[@Stdvwr]

@@calmlittlebuddy3721 Ok, maybe elitism is not the correct term, but rather than seeing yourself as elite you see the game that way. Some actual bits of advice you give are surrounded by false statements about how the game is not like any other. You are talking only about the main path, but you describe it like something that can't be approached by a regular player without outside help, which is far from the truth. The main path is absolutely about gaining enough skill to eventually beat it. The secrets and the broader world are outside of the main path and are offtopic. One actionable advice you give to a player is to watch streamers and read the wiki before playing, how is that not elitism? But I'm telling you, no one has beaten the game just by knowing it all. Noita IS a platformer roguelike, it is not a turn based strategy, and the mechanical skill is all that is required to beat it. There are secrets and side quests along the way, yes, but they are all optional. Wand tinkering helps, and it to master it you absolutely need external help, but the wands you just find on your way are good enough to beat the boss, and any player can improve them by tinkering. I'm not saying Noita is not unique, but initially it can be approached like any platformer. Only after the player beats the boss, with or without KZbin, after 100 hours or 1000, the obscure stuff starts to play role.

[@Stdvwr]

​@@calmlittlebuddy3721 Rather than seeing yourself as elite you see the game that way. Some basic bits of advice you give are surrounded by false statements about how the game is not like any other. You are talking only about the main path, but you describe it like something that can't be approached by a regular player without outside help, which is far from the truth. The main path is absolutely about gaining enough skill to eventually beat it. The secrets and the broader world are outside of the main path and are off topic. One actionable advice you give to a player is to watch streamers and read the wiki before playing, how is that not elitism? But no one has beaten the game just by knowing it all. Noita IS a platformer roguelike, it is not a turn based strategy, and the mechanical skill is all that is required to beat it. There are secrets and side quests along the way, yes, but they are all optional. Wand tinkering helps, and it to truly master it you absolutely need external help, but the wands you just find on your way are good enough to beat the boss, and any player can improve them by tinkering. I'm not saying Noita is not unique, but don't make something out if it that it is not. Initially it can be approached like any platformer. Only after the player beats the boss, with or without KZbin, after 100 hours or 1000, the obscure stuff starts to play role.

[@Stdvwr]

Rather than seeing yourself as elite you see the game that way. Some basic bits of advice you give are surrounded by false statements about how the game is not like any other. You are talking only about the main path, but you describe it like something that can't be approached by a regular player without outside help, which is far from the truth. The main path is absolutely about gaining enough skill to eventually beat it. The secrets and the broader world are outside of the main path and are off topic. One actionable advice you give to a player is to watch streamers and read the wiki before playing, how is that not elitism? But no one has beaten the game just by knowing it all. Noita IS a platformer roguelike, it is not a turn based strategy, and the mechanical skill is all that is required to beat it. There are secrets and side quests along the way, yes, but they are all optional. Wand tinkering helps, and it to truly master it you absolutely need external help, but the wands you just find on your way are good enough to beat the boss, and any player can improve them by tinkering. I'm not saying Noita is not unique, but don't make something out if it that it is not. Initially it can be approached like any platformer. Only after the player beats the boss, with or without KZbin, after 100 hours or 1000, the obscure stuff starts to play role.