Why New Bands are Doomed w/Mike Doughty - Music/Nerd

[@eXiLe824]

This kid is full of that early-2010s Internet Optimism that was just totally destroyed over the past miserable decade. 10 years later, Mike was right on the money. As a creative pursuit, it's easier than ever to make music, but harder than ever to make a living from it. "The internet allows you to do new things from far away that you couldn't do before...and not get paid for it."

[@emerickscott]

I've spoken to Mike at shows and online for almost 10 years. He definitely is a smart guy, and while doom and gloom a lot of the time, he knows what he's talking about.

[@banny998]

Dan makes a valid point, but unfortunately, as an aspiring musician, I have to agree with Mike. It's gonna be tough for people like me to make a living off of music alone.

[@MrPittsSox]

Mike nails it! This guy just refuses to hear.

[@QuipHop]

What an awesome interview!! Thanks to BOTH of you for participating...

[@maalbe987]

There's a difference between feeling that you have to hit the top of the charts & make millions and just making enough money to get by while still pursuing music full-time.

[@peterbrophy3478]

Mike Doughty is a cool dude

[@witzerdog]

Record companies can't take risks anymore now that they can't sell CD's, records or tapes at a huge mark up in order to fund A&R. Now they have to "manufacture" stars through reality TV, engineered boy bands, and the like. Plus... once they get these starry eyed kids launched, they OWN them. A friend of mine was a record rep for one of the early "American Idol" winners. He said these kid barely see a dime of that first album.

[@mikefalzone]

I think there needs to be a conversation on how social media is an incredible help to touring. It's not one or the other, it's about working them both together in the smartest way possible.

[@CinemaDaveMedia]

Mike is so right on this topic! Wow, great discussion.

[@dabhob333]

Would be interesting to see a follow up interview with these two on this same subject.

[@Jah044445]

I'd recommend both of you (though there's a good chance Dan has seen it) to watch a documentary called PRESS PAUSE PLAY, it's about artists of the many disciplines (music, writing, filmmaking, etc.) and having success in this digital age. I think both Dan and Mike make great points. As a former "aspiring musician" (I've taken to pursuing other interests, keeping music as a hobby), but also someone coming up in the "digital age", this has been a topic of great interest to me.

[@Jah044445]

Yeah, I was surprised Dan wasn't more assertive about being able to make a living independently through online content, as I'm under the impression he is (well, used to be) living proof of that. And it's a very good documentary, it's up on Vimeo to watch for free, and Netflix has it too.

[@dogdelirium]

Deacon tours quite a bit. It is theoretically possible that some formula involving better Spotify payments and whatnot will rescue independent artists...but it just hasn't happened yet. And to quote Mike: "Why hasn't it happened yet!?! We're like 12 years into this thing!"

[@basschica]

I hadn't heard of that, but now I want to check it out. As a fan of Meghan and Mike I can appreciate both sides of the argument, but it sounds like that movie would be fantastic for Mike. I wish Dan could've pointed out some of the business points of Google monetization, which obviously pays since people vlog for a living & same goes for the KZbin "artists" for music. Hitting the road w/0 fan base = major debt IMHO. Bad idea. Drama in the making! I'll definitely check out this movie soon, thx!

[@LucidEyes17]

It's a bleak picture but damned if Doughty isn't right. It won't stop me from trying though.

[@ThePatMoran]

I wouldn't care about money at all if I didn't want to become a full time musician. But, because it's such a big necessity for the goals I want to achieve, I have to worry about the business side of things. Mike is right in this video, the industry has changed tremendously & the way it is now, people like me have such a smaller chance of making it. It's pretty sad since there's so many musicians that exist now, but it's business unfortunately.

[@LukeLAMMan]

have you heard of bandcamp? The website has a lot of name your price albums. sometimes over a certain amount but it's way you can support an emerging band you like

[@WXVA9]

Mike is right, but the problem is that you can't un-ring the bell. People just aren't going to go back to buying $15 records anymore. There needs to be some new business model to support artists so that they can make a living, and Spotify surely isn't it.

[@StumpGrinder12]

I think one of the things to note though is that Mike DOES know how music works. I don't think either of them owned each other, I just think they both had two opposite but respectable viewpoints.

[@YngwiesDaughter13]

Agreed. You're smart. Thank you for existing. *hug*

[@Zanetaisfriendly]

Have you herd about Alex Day? "Alex Day is the biggest UK solo artist on KZbin with an audience of over half a million people. His 2011 winter single Forever Yours sold a hundred thousand copies worldwide in one week without any record label support or major radio airplay, landing on the UK Official Chart at #4 on Christmas Day."

[@racso452]

Geez, you don't need to be Radiohead or Nirvana to "make it" as a musician. Dave Chappelle said something I think could resonate with any artist. It's summed up like this: "If I can make a teachers salary as a comedian, I'd rather be a comedian." You don't need to be huge, but if you can live off of what youtube will pay you, then I'd say you've made it! Becoming succesful in the 90's has narrowed this guys view. The host had a great example of success in the new age of music.

[@Svendtunes]

The problem is that you need to gross $100,000 per year as a SOLO artist to promote, travel, produce good music, ect, and to finally take home the same as a $40,000 a year job. If you're a band, add another $60,000 per member. How many shows is that?

[@googoopanda]

Alex Day and wheezywaiter both had to promote their personalities on KZbin before they could promote their music. Less so for people like Julia Nunes and Meghan Tonjes, but they were also largely promoted by people who promote their personalities on KZbin. They are also very niche markets. I'm not trying to diminish their accomplishments, it's great that they are making a living as musicians, and it's a shame Mike Doughty hasn't heard of their trajectory. But it's a far cry from Radiohead.

[@thoril.pegason]

I feel like Dan Brown's Driftless Pony Club example as a 'band made popular through KZbin' is not strong because they got popular incidentally through Weezywaiter's success as a vlogger, not a musician.

[@Jah044445]

Well, he was holding up for a good long while, but I got the impression from Dan that he took the Fuse job, because the fact that he was using his personal KZbin as his "job" made his videos less fun, more stressful, and consequently the content was suffering. But besides Dan, there are a number of others who make ends meet just from being on here, e.g. jon4lakers with his tech content, and sxephil. In fact, Phil has a great video called "Get a REAL JOB Defranco" that addresses this.

[@StinaMurph]

Also nervous Dan is adorable

[@JustinYates]

I think you are right. Bands now a days have a much harder hurtle to jump than bands did in the 90's. I think it's do able for a musician to make a living, but there is much they have to fight against now.

[@johnh351]

I think the opposite, bands have it easy with social media. Christ, back in the 90's bands had to travel and play out just to be heard and maybe sell their albums at the shows. I bought tons of albums back in the late 80's early 90's. I was also in bands and it was a nightmare most of the time. Today artists can collaborate online, in my day we posted notes on music shop walls. Recording music has become so damn easy with computers. No long searches for musicians. Share ideas online. Record very high quality at home. With social media, you don't need to print flyers. The main thing is practicing and getting out to play live. Sell your album at shows. If you're good you might get a deal. So many people have been found on youtube and signed acts. Will people download your music for free? Absolutely, but if your album is great people will want the hardcopy.

[@JustinYates]

You are right, social media (in theory) does make it essentially easier to reach more people at less cost compared to a mid 90's platform we have seen.....but then again the internet is OVER SATURATED with a new band every ten minutes. Since ANYONE can make little bits of music with their phone...you see all kinds of "musicians" on sites like soundcloud,etc. Unfortunately social networking sites DONT work how they should. FB is a joke, Soundcloud has no audience other than other musicians and listeners who CHOOSE to find you...you can't find them, and sites like reverbnation and IOTM are a scam. I also come from a generation who did put posters in music shops. Recording has become easier...but once again..it all comes down to WHO is behind the console. Just because its easier or cheeper doesn't mean content is better. Still to this day I print flyers, many people do. I just saw NEW posters in downtown chicago for new music coming out next month. KZbin fame is a whole other topic, its a platform...but not a solution. "Will people download your music for free? Absolutely, but if your album is great people will want the hardcopy." - I highly agree. Sorry working, but I wanted to address these point asap.

[@demonslayervirgil600]

i believe it is to a point that you have to scream louder than everyone else who is shouting. Learn a little about marketing and advertising to push yourself as far as possible. Place ads on Facebook with your music or your image to get your name known and attract the audience that listen to your type of music. It may be hard, especially in the beginning, but if you love making music and find enjoyment of the work like advertising yourself and going out and playing then I believe you can go far in this day and age, maybe further than past musicians

[@Svendtunes]

What do you guys who disagree with Mike consider making a living? Can you eventually own a house, get married and afford to raise kids, have health insurance, pay taxes, ect? When you're 20 and willing to live in your van, you can possibly live off next to nothing and hope you don't have some kind of financial emergency, but you need to consistantly be able to gross $100,000 per year as a solo artist to run the biz end of things and have a real life that your fans can relate to.

[@Jeshikun]

Alex Day, DeStorm, Charlie McDonnel, Lauren Fairweather, Songstowearpantsto, the list goes on and on of successful youtube musicians

[@CloudVaris]

This. Was a really weird video to randomly stumble into. I'm a big fan of both Dan Brown and Mike Doughty, but I found this from a completely unrelated search for some other band's covers.

[@gamehawk24]

What was the source? Where did it go?

[@DayRollers]

Check out (the dayrollers) and their songs - feelin and mothers eyes

[@gamehawk24]

Internet fame and moderate pay just doesn't insensitivise young up and coming artists to commit.

[@justinmackay8175]

look at odd future. those kids have millions of views, can tour anywhere and sell out, and do pop up merch shops and make tons of money from it. strickly from youtube and releasing free music. now they can charge for their albums. the times they are a changin'

[@StinaMurph]

Mike Doughty makes a good point and is clearly a really bright guy but seems to be like a difficult person to have a fair discussion with. Really great on both sides though

[@PickThe6Strings]

different fuse logo please!

[@chrismcdermott7766]

artists should not be putting in all their time on self promotion and business. Their job is to make great music and continue to get better. It was the job of record companies to do that and develop new artists which we all benefitted from. Now everybody is scrambling and "non-artist start up business types" are trying to tell artists that the world is their oyster. yet it's the software people who seem to own it all. not the artist. The great classic albums came out of record companies paying a band's deficit while they developed until they were ready. Now the greatest new artists are so busy working at starbucks and trying to keep up with promotion, blog pages, facebook, booking, management etc.. that nobody is developing in this way anymore.

[@mastodon1314]

i gotta agree with Mike on this one

[@chriskoskela9170]

EXACTLY!!

[@PilotObi]

As a independent hip-hop artist I can see both view points here. Yes building a following is much easier than it used to be, but I highly doubt that itunes youtube or even show bookers like AftonLive LLC are paying any artist enough money to actually live off their craft. I personally feel like the music industry is really cut throat now. You're either filthy rich and rolling in doe or working two and three jobs just to make it to a show to perform for free. Tight Debate though!

[@ChinaPrincessDoll]

If I was a talented musician I'd only do music for the art of making music I wouldn't care about getting paid or whatever you know? yep

[@apollohermano8501]

hindsight is 2022

[@VitruvianSasquatch]

...Why did all the people before me not like this?!?

[@LoveIsLikeWoe]

ok there's truth to both sides. YES youtube/the internet is a great way to build up an audience, but it's hard these days anyone will pay special attention to up and coming bands. i mean, that's not always true, but to get people's attention these days you have to be ridiculously talented, whereas "back then" you didn't really have to have super spectacular talent. i dunno, just my thoughts.

[@mikefalzone]

Ed Sheeran

[@SwagSurf2012]

Shooting down other musicians and being a general skeptic is like half of making music, duh.

[@campbelltron]

mike's point is also VERY specific and VERY nuanced.

[@Awgez24]

Thats not Adam Savage

[@Danguitarboy96]

I don't care if the industry is dying! I'm ganna try my fucking best to get my band further to the top as possible because that's how good we are and how dedicated am to get us there. I'm not as good as anything else as i am at music so I'm ganna try my all to do it. (PERIOD! ;) SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT! Go see my bands KZbin channel at 'AvariceOfficial' ;) cheers.

[@thoril.pegason]

A lot of these people did not achieve success through music. Also NONE of these people are selling that much music.

[@gavinc.morrison1147]

wait pogobat?

[@codymercer4977]

Fuck that.. Make it or starve.

[@Dayglodaydreams]

Wheezy Waiter! He's a goofball.

[@LukeSebStaniland]

I grew up as a fan of doughty but I find his outlook outright negative

[@Cyworldabcd]

online is mixed with great music and shitty music

[@debramather2477]

Cranky?? U seem really nervous here. Why so nervous Mike?

[@BewareTheLilyOfTheValley]

I agree. Use the internet to help gain that fanbase and then it's likely you'll be signed to a label that will then provide the money for the initial tour. Hate to use him as an example but Justin Bieber was found on KZbin...and look at him now. I wouldn't condemn using KZbin as a starting tool. The internet is convenient, I can view that person from the comfort of my home and if I like them, *then* I'll go to one of their concerts. And you can become a YT partner for money too.

[@robdavidson1876]

Hahahahahah ...

[@TheJohnSanderson]

Louis CK...

[@ZacharyAaron]

Dan completely owned Mike on this one, sorry to say. I can see Mike is coming from an experienced, yet VERY biased viewpoint, and is unwilling to accept new ideas, or even listen to what Dan is saying for that matter. at least Dan was trying to explain his view instead of just saying "THIS IS HOW MUSIC WORKS." :3

[@ChinaPrincessDoll]

ya but I would do it just because I love music you know? I wouldn't mind I'd get a REAL job though and do Music because I love it!

[@MAUL0r1]

this guy is definitely stuck in the past.. if his example had taken a lot more time to market online, they'd be more liked.. not to mention that it still has to do with whether the artist is worthy... ad agencies and sony are not the judge of talent.

[@ChinaPrincessDoll]

People I mean Money isn't EVERYTHING!!!!! =P

[@thegoonsquadTBZ]

thumbs up if u stopped watching this as soon as you realized that guy wasnt adam from mythbusters

[@Loud0glbc]

This dude is and was wrong

[@clungeest]

So Dizzy Rascal, who performed at the Olympics, isn't doing well then? He's screwed? Thank God you sought the opinion of Soul Coughing. Cause we all remember how game changing they were right?

[@tinyskier6250]

i'm gonna download his whole discography and not listen to it ... now how's that for lost sales .. tons of new bands around making money or they wouldn't be around .. he's one of those who thinks every time someone hears a note that he wrote, he should get paid, whether it's his song or not, just like those other creeps .. metallica

[@RobCartwright]

Join a band, then say that again.