Why not send the ring to Valinor?

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[@mvsh]

I'm so early Valinor still can be accessed by a regular ship!

[@Big_Tex]

And the world is still flat, so you can see Valinor if you stand on a beer can.

[@sw-gs]

@@Big_Tex Remember Dwarf =/= beer can, even though they look like one.

[@mayalackman7581]

Good one.

[@azataylor1]

You better keep numenor in sight

[@theradgegadgie6352]

​@Big_Tex Except according to Tolkien it was always round.

[@infidel1993]

"The closer we are to danger, the further we'll be from harm. It's the last thing he'll expect."

[@gatsbygoodwood2575]

*Taps nose* ;)

[@DuplexWeevil337]

Peak Hobbit moment:

[@luckisadumpstat2578]

Honestly out of all lines and moments in the movies that's the one I remember the most clearly. I love it and took it to heart. Been awhile since I read the books so idr if that line is even there.

[@FruitMonger360]

Hmm. That doesn't make sense to me. But then, you are very small. Perhaps you're right.

[@realkarfixer8208]

I'm pretty sure that's a movie line, not a Tolkien line. But it's a good one, anyway.

[@user-wg4wq6ss5b]

"You can't sum up the Silmarillion in one sentence." Robert: "The whole sorry business of Feanor and his sons."

[@Nevyn515]

The Lord of the Rings trilogy can be summed up in the one sentence too: “5 guys go for a walk.”

[@DraconimLt]

@@Nevyn515 5? The Istari?

[@v1e1r1g1e1]

@@Nevyn515 9

[@pedrovargas2181]

Not really. Númenor has little to do with Fëanor and his boys, and only marginally with his grandboy.

[@user-wg4wq6ss5b]

@pedrovargas2181 While your statement is accurate, Pedro my pompous pal, I feel compelled to point out that the original comment was something known as 'an attempt at humour', more commonly referred to as a 'joke', and that you shouldn't take it nearly as seriously. ✌🏻

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

It's really cool how Tolkien explores the various options of what to do with the ring through the council of Elrond. That is the mark of a great author

[@OctagonalSquare]

And I’m glad that it wasn’t in the movie. As much as I’d like to see it, them discussing for hours about the various bad ideas would have gotten old

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

yes i love that too, all of the questions of "why didnt they just" he already thought of, and explained why they wouldn't work

[@MorningNapalm]

Yes, every great author should explore options through the council of Elrond.

[@ShortMan_123]

He was pre-empting annoying future KZbin commenters haha (not you, obvs :D)

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

@@ShortMan_123 😂😂😂

[@patrickmitchell9068]

Valinor: Hey I know this our fault but like, can you solve it on your own

[@computernoise2209]

Boomer Valar vs. Millennial Humanity

[@plebisMaximus]

Their fault that their kind is causing trouble in middle-earth, but that's just soooo not their problem lmao. There's feasting to do and rotting fruit to throw at Feanor's spirit in the Halls of Mandos.

[@randomd286]

It is literally Valinor's fault he is a maiar who, after the fall of melkor, was confronted in middle earth, instead of being captured or anything was just advised to come back for punishment and then they just did nothing lol. It is even stated that it would be impossible for any mortal man to destroy the ring. Gollum slipping with it in his hand into the volcano was literally the only way they could have accomplished its destruction. The majority of the help they did send turned to evil and made things worse.🤣

[@forsakenquery]

Exactly

[@pumellhorne]

​@@randomd286I think there's a bit in the Silmarillion where the Valar realise that every time they help out they reshape Middle-Earth, sinking lands, raising mountains, etc, bc they're so powerful. They decided to trust in the plan Eru Iluvatar came up with and let things play out. A lot of things needed to happen to get Gollum where he had to be to destroy the ring and Gandalf didn't believe it was by chance

[@SuperCory1973]

I take a less paternalistic view of the Valar stepping back and a more practical one. When the Valar intervene, it's usually catastrophic. The War of Wrath is just the last of a series of battles that caused absolute devastation. So, I think the switch to using the Istari is an example of the Valar deciding to use "soft power" as opposed to direct power. Better to influence events than to become directly involved and cause mass suffering. One of the interesting things about the Valar is, they make lots of mistakes and, in many ways, are child-like in how they make decisions. They don't understand the Children of Eru well at all, they don't understand the fears and desires that motivate the Elves and Men, and have to learn through trial and error. Manwe fundamentally misunderstands Melkor, can't conceive of his evil. Tossing Melkor into the Void was arguably cruel and unusual punishment that probably only made Melkor more evil and perhaps broke his mind. Freeing him afterward and allowing him to run about unsupervised is the definition of mindboggling. Calling the Elves to Valinor in the first place was likely a terrible mistake. Creating Numenor, not having a presence there, and then setting an arbitrary restriction on where Men could sail was a questionable series of decisions. Take all that into account and I think the Valar perhaps came to understand that they were not well suited to being good stewards of the world and they needed a different approach. Because they lack the fundamental good-judgement to understand the world. Perhaps because they're just so different from other beings. The Maiar, by contrast, seem to be more flexible, adaptable and able to learn than the Valar are. This probably gets at something in the core of what Iluvatar created these two sets of beings as. The Valar, in many ways, are hopelessly distant and alien, which maybe gave them the ability to physically create the world, but left them unsuited to govern it. While the Maiar are able to, and sometimes do, live in the world as something almost indistinguishable from an Elf or a human being. They're able to understand and move between the divine world and the physical world in a way that most of the Valar, other than perhaps Melkor and Ulmo, are simply not able to do.

[@jhtrq1465]

Melkor wasn't tossed into the Void as its first punishement, he was chained in the Halls of Mandos. The Void banishement was the last and definitive sentence after the war of wrath.

[@rmsgrey]

The big difference between Valar and Maiar is one of scale, not of kind. Maiar are more able to interact with the Children of Iluvatar because they don't have to work so hard at not accidentally vaporising entire cities, but there's nothing to indicate a sharp division between Valar and Maiar - there's a range from the most powerful Valar (Manwe, Ulmo, Tulkas - though Melko was more powerful than any) to the least of the Maiar, but the greatest of the Maiar were comparable to the least of the Valar. We don't really know enough about the Ainur to generalise - we can point to specific examples who successfully passed for something like humans, if eccentric ones - at least as successfully as Tom Bombadil did - but the stories are about and by Elves, and later Hobbits, with the Ainur appearing mostly as incidental supporting roles.

[@SuperCory1973]

Ah! Good point. I had misunderstood that. @@jhtrq1465

[@Pfhorrest]

I'd like to hear some alternate history idea where the Valar didn't make all of those mistakes but instead handled each canonical misstep in a better way. This reminds me very much of some comments I've made on Robert's earlier videos about the nature of Melkor, and how to me the best theodicy for Middle Earth, though Tolkien himself as a Catholic would of course never approve of it, is that God qua Illuvatar is not perfect, yet, and so neither is his creation, and the whole history of Arda from the First Music on to the Second after Dagor Dagorath is a process of him "doing Shadow Work" in the Jungian sense, integrating the conflicting parts of himself together into a better and altogether more functional person. And that Shadow of Illuvatar was, of course, none other than Melkor himself. It's said in the Ainundale that all of the Ainur are projections of various facets of Illuvatar himself, and my take is that Melkor is a projection of Illuvatar's "auteur" characteristics, the drive to create and especially to exercise creative control. The first sin Tolkien ever mentions Melkor ever committing, before even the First Music, was Melkor venturing out into the Void, feeling sad at its emptiness, and then seeking out the Flame Imperishable to go create within the Void, which Illuvatar would not stand for because NOBODY else gets to use the Flame. Then during the First Music, Melkor's crime is basically showboating, trying to steal the spotlight and be the star. But that "none other before me" is a characteristic of Illuvatar himself, and I think that Melkor is just a projection of that into another being, who of course was then guaranteed to clash with the original who shares those characteristics. It's said that after Dagor Dagorath, not only Ainur but Elves and Men will also join in the Second Music, and the Flame Imperishable will be shared with all to recreate a new Arda Healed, which sounds to me very much like Illuvatar finally correcting his own original sin of having to be the sole auteur of his creation and not share creative control with anyone. I've suggested in those earlier comments that had Illuvatar been a perfect god already at the start, he would have just let Melkor take the Flame into the Void and create the world there, and then sent the other Ainur in after him to assist in "Melkor's" project, improving on its imperfections, collaborating together but letting him take point and set direction, and then all work together to realize his vision in the best way possible, that whole process just being the realization and perfection of Illuvatar's own vision, since they are all projections of himself, Melkor included. I feel like you could take that starting point and your critique of the Valar's actions in turn and sketch out what that better timeline would look like if instead of fighting then running and hiding from Melkor as they do, the Valar and below them the Maiar, and then later Elves and Men too, all worked within "Melkor's" world to make it, and him, and Illuvatar himself of which they are all parts, better.

[@SuperCory1973]

That's the traditional view, but reading the work it seems to me that there are differences in how the Maiar and Valar interact with the world that point to important differences between them. I don't know of an example of the Valar accidentally vaporizing a city, however. They seem to interact with Elves and Men without harming them several times in the Simarillion. Orome, for instance, discovers the Elves and isn't said to have accidentally harmed them. @@rmsgrey

[@Yamaazaka]

Me: *brings the one ring to valinor* Manwé: "bruh"

[@Chociewitka]

Aule: Give me that thing. Interesting. I will make some scientifical experiments with it before I destroy it... (Aule would not have been affected by the work of one of his pupils)

[@hangebza6625]

​@@Chociewitka I now imagine Aule going on for a tantrum how shoddy this thing was made and how much Sauron neglected his skills over the millenia.

[@yinyangthang]

😂

[@yochaiwyss3843]

​@@hangebza6625"the curvature is .2 degrees off. I swear to Eru my dwarves could have done something better"

[@Alpostpone]

@@yochaiwyss3843 "Compared to Feanor, this guy is a n00b."

[@jamesgravil9162]

"They really did cover a lot of ground at that meeting [the Council of Elrond]" So much so that the chapter is 15,000 words and would probably be an hour long if adapted accurately for the screen.

[@vexile1239]

Ain't that the truth

[@bsmith3506]

Shhh don't give them ideas. They're already scraping the bottom if the barrel for LOTR films 🤣

[@moritamikamikara3879]

@@bsmith3506 Nononono I want a 1 hour long council of Elrond! I'm very happy with that!

[@BrooklynRedLeg]

It still required the subtle intervention of Eru, though that final curse Frodo leveled on Gollum REALLY did the trick.

[@pumellhorne]

Not always that subtle. Everyone turning up at the council of Elrond at the same time despite no one being invited and no one organising it was a dead giveaway 😂

[@istari0]

The curse worked so well because Gollum had broken the oath he swore to Frodo back in the Emyn Muil.

[@dr.kinderman5290]

Wait, what curse?

[@DragonoidBerserker1]

@@dr.kinderman5290 "Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

[@Dadecorban]

Not so subtle....Gandalf had to be reincarnated as a more power version of himself. It was always outside our capacity to complete this task, or so close to the knife as to make no matter. The plot happened because Eru wanted it to happen that way, so the Valar did it that way, so the people of Middle Earth did it that way, because Tolkien wanted to it to happen that way. All this talk about "this was our task and the Valar are now exercising a laseiz faire foreign policy is just short of the mark"

[@lukasmeier9245]

I mean Sauron was actually kinda right when saying that the Valar had abandoned Middle-earth, as they would have left both Humans and Dwarfes to Melkor.

[@akiramasashi9317]

That's the genius of Sauron. He doesn't so much lie as tell half-truths with carefully hidden details or missing critical context to get his way.

[@firefalcon124epic]

​@@akiramasashi9317lmao Sauron is like a modern politician

[@akiramasashi9317]

@@firefalcon124epic I bet Tolkien and the Unabomber would've gotten along famously.

[@holysecret2]

@@akiramasashi9317 Maybe! Until he started harming innocents, that is.

[@Alejojojo6]

@@akiramasashi9317 He is the lord of Lies and the Deceiver for a reason haha

[@syriuszb8611]

"it's like parents letting the children deal with own problems" except that the problem was drunken uncle with grabby hands.

[@captainweekend5276]

The line about the Nazgul's steeds basically seems to suggest that if they did try to take the one ring to Valinor that the Nazgul would give chase upon their fell beasts, and would likely seize the ring at sea before it could be delivered.

[@bbgun061]

Possibly. Sauron also controlled the Corsairs of Umbar, whose fleets were raiding the coasts of Gondor. They might have been watching the Grey Havens, and would no doubt attack any ship sailing from there with the Ring.

[@dragonkingofthestars]

Insert WW2 carrier warfare here.

[@iraz82]

Please don’t give Amazon any ideas. We know how they respect the lore. 🥴

[@Chupacabraification]

Didn't Legolas shoot down one of those with a single arrow?

[@melissablackwood]

@@Chupacabraification Still only counts as one.

[@LENZ5369]

Sauron (and Morgoth) was neither man or elf, they were Maia and Valar . Expecting humans and elves to clean up Valinor's mess is ridiculous.

[@brodok4252]

Yeah, but the s**t rolls downhill, as they say.

[@lyh3815]

well it would appear that it was Eru`s plan, he himself said that there isn`t anything in the universe not his by design, so in a sense, melkor was supposed to be ~bad~

[@lorbbrol9976]

yeh, and they did it. With hobbits and a small DnD party. All the better tale for it.

[@Slechy_Lesh]

It's trickle-down economics

[@katiikN]

The Valar are the true villains of Tolkien's stories and no one will convince me otherwise

[@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr]

I wish you would just put the artist credits on screen with each piece so they can be looked up. i really liked some so i had to take a screenshot and reverse image search it and then find the right link. the artists deserve to be known.

[@AztecCroc]

There are credits at the end.

[@johnathanrichardson]

@@AztecCroc i think what he means is give credit to the artist while the image is on the screen, as opposed to everyone at the end. say i wanted to look up the artist who made the image at 4:24 how do i know which of the many artists listed at the end created that image? putting the credits in the corner of the screen would make it very easy to find the artist

[@nickcunningham6344]

I mean he does include them at the end. Maybe not as convenient as including them with the images, but the information is there and accessible.

[@Salted_Fysh]

The Valar: issues of middle earth should be taken care of by those of middle earth. The responsibility for their own fate is our gift to them. Also the Valar: hey, remember that Sauron guy we failed to take responsibility for and let run around freely, bringing untold suffering for thousands of years?

[@plebisMaximus]

It's fine, they sent Saruman to take care of it. I'm sure he'll remain loyal and true to his mission.

[@thewoofalo631]

Oh no people are making the same mistake they make in real life also in Tolkiens work.

[@gaynzz6841]

sounds like christianity

[@Jimbo-zn6oz]

Simple thoughts from a simple mind.

[@rofald]

2:52 My thought on Elrond saying that "they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it" didn't necessarily mean that the Ring would be refused entry into Valinor, but that it might have been physically impossible for it to be brought there. When Eru changed the shape of the world toward the end of the Second Age and established the Straight Way, it seems to me that the intention was to make Valinor inaccessible not only to humans, but also to the corrupting influence of Arda Marred and so give the elves a place where they could live free of the corruption that caused them to fade in Middle-Earth. To that end I think any ship carrying an artifact as evil as the Ring would simply not be able to traverse the Straight Way and would just continue on the Bent Seas until it reached the new mortal lands raised in the West of Middle-Earth after the Second Age.

[@12classics39]

Totally agree!

[@shitholeworld]

Doesn't it depend on the ring-bearer though?

[@hunttari]

Considering what carnage Fëanor and the silmarils caused earlier, i don't think the valar wanted another "catalyst" to tempt some elves or a maia into doing something similar.

[@mairepres]

The Valar must have been quite fed up with mighty jewels

[@plebisMaximus]

The carnage caused by them refusing to let him go fetch his gems or the carnage caused by them refusing to ever help the elven host that rode to war against their kindred?

[@randomd286]

@@plebisMaximus No the carnage: of them not wanting to deal with man/ give them guidance. So when tricked by Sauron to sail towards their island out of ignorance, absolutely no threat to them, they delete their civilization from existence. The only one to survive being the one who tricked them into it.

[@FH-cn3mg]

​​​@@randomd286 The Valar did not delete humanity. The Silmarillion makes it quite clear that Manwe gave up his governance of Arda and asked Eru Illuvatar to take control. Eru topples the mountains and sent Numenor into oblivion. The Valar did not do anything. Also, Eru nor Manwe, nor any of them killed Earendil when he showed up and asked the Valar to intervene in Beleriand. They did take up their armies and defeated Morgoth in the end. Blaming the Valar for the Elves' stupidity and evil is not the way.

[@randomd286]

@@FH-cn3mg Yes my comment, concerning the fall of numenor, was pointed at the illogical actions of Eru. Though the valar could have addressed the whole situation very easily. They sent one of the valar and separated part of a continent to use as an elven taxi. It seems like they were more than capable of directly communicating/ stopping sauron from manipulating them into worship of melkor. Maybe a "come to Jesus" moment would have been appropriate. Eru wiping out all the innocent men, women and children (regardless of if they even knew what the king was going to do) but not taking care of Sauron is a mystery. The only conclusion you can really draw is that Sauron was still needed to drive the story forward. All those of the race of men who suffered for centuries under the dark lord, who they were incapable of beating prior to the coming of the chosen one, could have been saved if not for the sake of the story (i'm referring to in universe).

[@rocketraccoon1976]

Just put Glorfindel on a Great Eagle and fly at high altitude all the way to Valinor. Then give it to Tulkas, who can tell Sauron through some sort of vision or dream, "Yo, you want your ring? Come and get it."

[@willowarkan2263]

through the ring into the sun, The maiar that pulls it around still comes down every day, she might be hot enough to melt it.

[@pumellhorne]

Do you want a giant eagle Dark Lord? Because that's how you get a giant eagle Dark Lord

[@EarthsGeomancer]

Wasn't Voldemort from Valinor? It would have been a bad idea to send it there.

[@jondonnelly4831]

I for one welcome our dark eagle lords. ​@@pumellhorne

[@billebrooks]

@@pumellhorne If Gandalf and Galadriel cannot be trusted with the One Ring, then neither can Glorfindel.

[@windfiend]

A few topics for videos: - who and what is Goldberry - the story of Huan - a video about each Vala Thank you for your content

[@BwillsAlwight]

How nice of them to let us deal with it ourselved. It's not like Sauron was one of their maiar or anything :3

[@woodysmith2681]

Good video. The Valar were cruel also because "it is time for men to take responsibility [for one of OUR corrupted and his power that is beyond that of men]" is not "men accepting responsibility for MAN's mistake."

[@TheCorpsehatch]

Best Lord of the Rings lore channel on KZbin.

[@halikarnak1862]

Can I get a 'true'

[@thegamechanger7352]

@@halikarnak1862 true

[@GravesRWFiA]

I could see the valar pulling back for man's issues, Sauron was a problem caused by the valar, they had failed to stop him, one of their own number, from running roughshod.

[@dandiehm8414]

The Valar were believers in freedom, Manwe Especially. Sauron was not a "Valr" problem. They were not in charge of ridding the world of evil. They could not do that. They left Sauron in Middle Earth, as well as at least one Balrog, lots and lots of Orcs, and they even left Dragons. They were not willing to change the earth to keep men safe, as the threat of larger destruction was greater.

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer.2984]

My thoughts as well. Sauron was not from Middle Earth. He was a fallen Valar. The Valar should be cleaning up their own mess.

[@OceanHedgehog]

They'd also intervened to defeat Morgoth and imprison him. When the Host of the Valar arrived on Middle Earth, it waged a 40 year war against Morgoth that devastated the land, and the Valar did not want a repeat of that event. Sending the Istari to guide the Free Peoples to defend themselves was the less destructive route than directly facing Sauron as they had against Morgoth.

[@nexeye1]

​@@OceanHedgehog Yeah, but the istari were almost completely incompetant. If not for Gandalf, the whole concept would've failed and Sauron would've won.

[@AZSgamepro]

I’d love a video going in depth on the council of Elrond, who was there, what was said, why did they make the decisions they made

[@HuntingTarg]

Maybe you should read the first book - it's 'source material'; "everything you seek may be found there."

[@Jagonath]

@@HuntingTarg Well, quite. But you could say that about any video on LOTR.

[@datadavis]

@@Jagonath its shit

[@EbonMagician34]

I would be curious to explore more about what the nature of Morgoth’s banishment really is. What exactly is he doing out there, beyond the Walls of Night? Is he communing with the dark things living out there? Is he building power and biding his time? Is he just struggling to even get back to Arda in the first place? Is his banishment also flight from the Valar? I feel like this topic could be quite fun to dig into. Good topic this time, as well, of course. I always appreciate your work!

[@methamphetamineaddict5217]

I believe when the valar banished him, they "hewd" his legs and bound him in chains in permanent captivity. Pretty much made him a cripple then put him in a straightjacket

[@clobberelladoesntreadcomme9920]

@@methamphetamineaddict5217 It's a metaphor for him being trapped in an eternal, changeless, non-corporeal dimension. He's in Hell basically.

[@marvalice3455]

There's no power to build out there, it's just nothing you

[@ahmetakgun5358]

​@@methamphetamineaddict5217after mutilating him, the valar bound him in chains, dragged him all over the place. One does not leave Arda with a physical body. So, Morgoth was executed before his banishment...

[@moritamikamikara3879]

@@methamphetamineaddict5217 Hewed means chopped

[@Boomska316]

I'd like to see you go into the Fall of Boromir and the differences between the book and movie versions of that event.

[@maxwibert]

Bit of a lost opportunity in this video. The whole first point could have been summarized by "The closer we are to danger, the farther we are from harm."

[@ryanmcwilliams8784]

That doesn’t make sense to me. But then again. The ring is very small. South it is!

[@MrMia1994]

"Sauron knew that Valinor was real, he was from there"... I had always assumed that Sauron had never been to Valinor, that he had broken with the Valar during the time of the Lamps, and was in Middle Earth during the time of the trees. That is there always more to learn!

[@anubisgod23]

All of the Mair are from valinor

[@MrMia1994]

@@anubisgod23 The Balrogs were in Valinor?

[@plebisMaximus]

They all stepped into Arda together and the point of entry was Valinor. Sauron was actually an apprentice under Aule for a while there, before going with Morgoth.

[@MrMia1994]

@@plebisMaximus I'm always happy to learn! My assumption was that Valinor became "Valinor" following the war of the lamps when the Valar moved west. Such a rich text.

[@Krisliet]

Apparently they partially lose their memories when they go to Middle Earth... It figures, since in the third age Middle Earth is basically another "realm" of existence to them.

[@JPNixon-hu2jd]

Fantastic video - thank you. I have always, with greatest respect for the man himself, disagreed on the point of the Valar not taking the one ring. Going to Middle Earth and effecting change, I completely understand the Valar's reluctance. But not allowing back an entity, self mutilated as he was, like Sauron or his ring sounds retconned (which again I would understand to make a great story work). Sauron was not of Middle Earth, so unless the plan from the beginning was to let Sauron or humanity have Middle Earth, disallowing the peoples of Middle Earth to return Sauron (and/or the ring which is fundamentally a part of Sauron) seems less a coming of age for mankind and more of a failure to acknowledge the last remnant of a mess they failed to fully clean up. In any event, the story is fantastic, so little argument beyond this comment. Again, thank you for the video. Great work as always!

[@jaelwyn]

In fairness, that pretty much puts them in line with almost every human parent in history...

[@HuntingTarg]

The Valar are an indistinct part of the _LOTR_ epic proper; they are as distant and out-of-focus as the Misty Mountains would be from Rivendell. And Sauron, being formerly one of them, was no more fit for their company or their charge than his ring was; for his ring held within it everything that made Sauron abhorrent to them to begin with. So naturally they could not simply 'take him back' for Middle Earth's sake. And neither could they fell him by their own hands, or they would become as he was, ruled by might and power, not by virtue. I would guess that their aim was for him to meet his own end in Middle Earth, keeping both their hands and their wills untainted by his corruption. If Sauron was ended by other Valar, then they became judges of their peers, and their whole exalted existence was in peril. However, if he met his own end in another land by the wills of lesser creatures, then his corruption would be evidently foolish and craven, and Valinor would remain the untainted home of the wise and the blessed.

[@komninosm]

@@HuntingTarg Sauron was Maia not Valar. They did punish their own. They crippled Morgoth and bound him in chains in the Halls of Mandos and then disposed him in the dark void.

[@shitholeworld]

@@HuntingTarg Virtue doesn't stand back and let others do its dirty work fella, just cowards do that. Cowards who enjoy watching Reality TV shows in middle earth, obviously.

[@LHSNottingham]

Eru and the Valar are the kinds of friends that make you prefer your enemies. The Valar left Sauron behind after the war of wrath because ??? and then when he (completely predictably) corrupted the Numenoreans the Valar were like "we tried sending some clouds that looked like eagles but now we're out of ideas". So big daddy Eru steps in and naturally solves the problem by killing his own deceived "children" while leaving Sauron alive with a debuff so he couldn't shape shift. Thanks, "dad"

[@aWILDsomethingCAME]

If i hold a gun to your head and tell you to love me, is that true love? The valar are not going to force someone into choosing good, otherwise whats the point?

[@LHSNottingham]

​@@aWILDsomethingCAME ...where did I say anything like the Valar should force elves/men to love them? I'm talking about the Valar and Eru allowing their peers/offspring to run completely amok in middle earth. the valar literally let sauron walk away after the war of wrath, that's on them. Eru killed those that Sauron deceived, as well as the faithful who remained on the island, while letting Sauron walk away with a loss of one skill.

[@Alex626_]

@@LHSNottingham Instead of just killing the Sauron. Yes, Eru had a screwed logic. What do you expect, he's a Tolkien's version of the evil jewish god named Yahweh.

[@LHSNottingham]

@@Alex626_ ... which was the whole point of my initial comment. With friends like Eru/the Valar/the Christian god - who needs enemies.

[@891Henry]

You sound like a Sauron apologist.

[@lrobertiii]

Wow! Thanks for answering my question on your last video "Why not throw the Ring into the sea?". Thank you and brillant video Robert.

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

lol, I asked the exact same question back then. funny how two minds can work the same way

[@itap8880]

Why do I sense something... artificial?

[@lrobertiii]

@@itap8880 Sorry? Artifical?

[@lrobertiii]

@itap8880 Sorry if my English isn't great. English is not my first language.

[@itap8880]

@@lrobertiii idk, the comment sounded a bit sus to me

[@madambutterfly1997]

Canonically Aüle was the only other being in all of Arda who could destroy the one ring.

[@akiramasashi9317]

I'm sure any of the Valar could've done it. Even some of the Maiar like Eonwe might've been able to do it.

[@tolkienism3806]

​@@akiramasashi9317 its definitely a possibility since the valar are canonicaly stronger than sauron. But aule is definitely the best option since he is the craftsman valar nd also taught sauron the skill to make the one ring.

[@Wild_Danimal]

So like, why didn’t Aüle (or whoever else) just destroy it? This question simply shivers my Timbers

[@Fabio-zc7bs]

​@@Wild_DanimalI think the ring is basically a test for the races living in middle earth. Destroying the ring is the proof that Humans, Dwarves, Hobbits and other races can live by themselves and do what's right. The valar could have just invaded middle earth and killed Sauron by themselves. Tulkas used to melt Melkor, he is pretty able to defeat Sauron in combat. But I think Eru wanted his creatures to become independent. Much like when you are a father and want your child to be independent. You help them a little but you also let them go through a hard time to learn up to the point the child doesn't need the father anymore.

[@akiramasashi9317]

@@tolkienism3806 True, he could've smashed it with ease and it would be poetic justice in a way, but he wouldn't. Even if he wanted to, he wasn't allowed to.

[@baarbacoa]

So the Valar are just a community of preppers, living in a gated upscale community?

[@bjarkefromsejer394]

Much appreciated, Robert.. I do enjoy how much you listen to your community.. ❤ Good health, and keep up the good work..💪

[@stealth_meister4939]

Your videos are great to listen to as I drive to school since it's 1.5 hours away. Love them!

[@mrs.c1755]

Thank you so much! Your answer was far more in depth than I thought possible, and I loved it! I would say that it might only be cruel of the Valar to leave it to humans if they also removed all help. Since the eagles, Gandalf, etc., remained to aid the peoples of middle earth until the evil beyond their capabilities to counter were removed, it was, as you said, their time to sort of finish growing up. Lovely, lovely video!

[@daniharling3632]

"The whole sorry business of Feanor" is hilarious

[@superslayerguy]

In Deep Geek been on a streak with bangers lately, thank you so much Robert

[@adambeers3702]

It would be cool to see a video about how Tolkien made virtually everything talk. Dragons, animals, trees, orcs. It would be interesting to hear your perspective Robert!

[@Jeff-cn9up]

Because Tolkien wanted to write a story about hobbits walking to Mordor.

[@Alpostpone]

And it took three thick books to do it, because one does not simply walk into Mordor.

[@craigoclock]

Yep. Divine intervention and magical solutions make the story feel cheaper and less heroic, so use them sparingly.

[@markpukey8]

@@Alpostpone OK, that might be the BEST doubling down on a joke I've ever seen! You sir, win win the internet for today!

[@ZeroKitsune]

I also get the sense that Eru was helping the people of Middle Earth more than anyone realized, and that the test was always meant to be about resisting temptation and not physical might. I have no evidence for it, but it seems fitting to me that Eru had always planned to help them destroy the ring, IF they could stay determined to actually do it and not use it for themselves.

[@Madame702]

Just remember during the Second age the Last Alliance of Elves and Men defeated Sauron with his Ring of Power in his own territory. So it wasn't like Valar really need to come and help the Elves and Men like they did in War of Wrath during the First Age.

[@MaaZeus]

​​@@Madame702 That was still in a time when elves were truly a force to be reckoned with AND humanity was still at its golden age, mostly united and strong. But during the age of LOTR the elves were mostly gone and, as Elrond said, humans were weak, scattered and leaderless. Even dwarves had issues of their own. This was in many ways the low point of all races of the middle earth. But yes, I agree with Kitsune. As long as there was one willing to do the right thing, resist the temptation and take the ring away somewhere to be destroyed then he would subtly guide their path so that it can be eventually done no matter how hard and hopeless the road may seem. This is pretty much what Gandalf was hinting at too when he told Frodo that he was meant to get the ring. Frodos journey should have been impossible, 0.00000000something chance of succeeding. But succeed it did because Eru was in the background, nudging and poking to keep the ball rolling.

[@Madame702]

@@MaaZeus No you have it backwards. The Elves are in their golden age during the 1st age. Humans are just starting out. The human golden age is in 4th age when all the Elves leave Middle Earth and settle in Aman.

[@MaaZeus]

@@Madame702 Yeah I formed the sentence wrong. But the point is the same, Elves kicked ass and humanity was strong too, all allied under strong leadership back then. All 3 major races were shadows of their former selves during the LOTR. Elves were leaving in troves, humans were divided and dwarfs rooted deeply into their holes minding their own business. A direct war with Mordor was no longer an option and if it weren't for the success of Frodo and Sam, Mordor would have steamrolled over west.

[@Madame702]

@@MaaZeus You have to be careful during the First Age it is mostly Elves that fighting not just any Elves it high Elves or Noldorin Elves under King Feanor. But after the "War of Wrath" and the destruction of Beleriand most of the Noldorin Elves where either killed or returned to the Blessed Lands.

[@jeffcordova9633]

This is one of those questions I asked when I watched the series this past weekend for the 3rd time lol Thanks for the video Robert!!

[@jasN86]

GREAT video! Thanks for the share!

[@maggs131]

I hope wherever we go when we die, Tolkien can see how his universe is still being loved and enjoyed. ❤

[@retsaMinnavoiG]

Unfortunately we just turn to dust.

[@I_am_nobody999]

@@retsaMinnavoiG Tolkein didn't think so. He was a faithful Catholic.

[@sulljoh1]

I think you covered this topic quite well 👌

[@SlugcatDahlia]

I always thought that the ring, if in the air, would become much more visible to Sauron's otherworldy gaze, just like putting a cell tower is going to give you much more reception because it's high up than if those transmitters and receivers were just on the ground. The higher up in the air it is, the more things will be able to see it. This is why Saurumon just knows where the Fellowship are on the mountains over Moria. The ring's transmission is so bright that up on the mountain, everything attuned to it would be able to see it from up there. The nature of the Earth itself helps to drown out the magic radiating from the right in a sea of noise. This is why they cannot take Eagles, as well as the Witch King on his flying mount would be able to see it and intercept it.

[@p-ar1755]

Great video once again! I would love to have a video from you explaining the music of the Ainur and how it impacts events in Middle-Earth.

[@Mandolatron]

The ring was basically a congealed Sauron spirit. He wasn't welcome there. So why would they want him hanging out in ring form?

[@tiffles3890]

Who said they'd need to allow it? If one the Valar, specifically Aule, cannot destroy the Ring, then it's time to stop calling them Valar and just call them "grossly overrated Ainur".

[@scottclark5336]

Had just watched the throw the ring into the sea earlier this evening and had the same thought about valinor

[@ThommyofThenn]

I'm so glad i'm watching so much of your stuff before finally tackling the Extended Editions of the films.

[@monsierlemaire8282]

Love these videos! Both the information and the production quality are first rate.

[@madambutterfly1997]

It makes sense that the Valar would and could use the one ring and not be corrupted by it in ANY capacity.

[@vtmarik]

Could have kicked it through the door of night... and then Melkor would have gotten it... and ooooh that would've been bad. Yeah, destroyed was the best option.

[@borusa32]

If Melkor can be consumed by evil then other Valar conceivably could.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@borusa32 Sure, but it's pretty likely Aule could destroy the Ring if they were worried about that.

[@istari0]

@@borusa32 Melkor chose to be evil. If none of the other Valar fell prey to Melkor's influence, I see no reason why any of them would fall prey to the One Ring, which was much less powerful.

[@kripos2201]

Could you do a video on the history of Gundabad next perhaps? Please and thank you.

[@robertthebarry]

I love your videos, I especially like the way you don't drag them out to 30 minutes! I think some KZbinrs feel they work for the BBC.

[@mage1439]

What you have to say here meshes so well with the incredible art you've found.

[@ConsolasEight]

Okay. Why not just say "Hell with it!" and give the Ring to Sauron? Couple of years rulling the world - people in the desert saying it's too hot, people at the poles complaining it's too cold, people in the middle complaining it's always raining, countersigning coloured forms, attending meetings, wearing a tie - and he'll realise he's no longer a Dark Lord but a Manager. "Oh my god -- I'm a MANAGER!" He'll be BEGGING the people of middle earth to overthrow him so he can go back to the fun stuff of raising his army, searching for the ring, designing dark fortresses like it's Minecraft... On the other hand, let me suggest again maybe a delve into the world of the Chronicles of Prydain? :)

[@hitchalon]

lol this happened to Shredder in one of the Ninja Turtles episodes 😂 But Sauron/Mairon is not just evil. He is a control freak and adores absolute order. This is why he switched side to Melkor in the beginning. He is like Lord Business in lego movie. He would destroy anything that is against his order. He controls minds of his servants. And his purpose being disclosed by mouth of sauron at the black gate. He has a piece of land with borders in his mind. What he wants is just absolute order.

[@plebisMaximus]

@@hitchalon Yea, but at the cost of bureaucracy? He may be a control freak, but he's not masochistic. The moment he's confronted with the reality of rulership, having to deal with taxation and agricultural land disputes, he'll beg the Valar to take him in.

[@hitchalon]

@@plebisMaximus I won’t argue, it is a possibility. Maybe after some time he would start looking for a nice sea side for retirement and leave the things to wraiths and mouth of sauron :)

[@rofflestomp684]

Also, it was bound to Middle Earth and the very foundations of Barad-dûr. Could it even go the straight way to Valinor?

[@TheNicolocomd]

Like always a very beautiful explanation!

[@Lord_Malkior]

Great video. Thank you so very much, Robert. Cheers~ ❤️

[@TheGRAclan]

I like the theory around the Valar wanting humanity to take charge of their world and genuinely believe thats what Tolkien intended however I see one massive flaw in this. Sauron is a Maiar...hes literally one of Erus fuckups. To go back to the parent analogy. Its like the parent burning the dinner and making the kids clean up and cook again from scratch.

[@shakeNbake91586]

Not mentioned in the video, but another important point about *why* the Valar had been 'stepping back' is that, well, every time they've gotten involved has brought massive destruction and in many ways only made things worse. The War of Wrath utterly, apocalyptically, destroyed the entire western region of Middle Earth. Their mere existence in the world and that of the Undying Lands was at least partly a cause of the corruption and downfall of Numenor, it served as a temptation and almost a taunt....immortality is real, it exists, you can see it from your homeland. I think the fact that they sent the wizards is admission on their part that Sauron is one of theirs, and it's at least partly their fault he still exists to cause all this misery for humankind, as they failed repeatedly to deal with him like they finally dealt with Morgoth at the end of the 1st Age. But they won't, and maybe can't, take direct action this time.

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

Tbf the last time the Valar directly helped fight a war on Middle-Earth, they sunk a massive chunk of Middle-Earth itself. Dunno if the place would survive another of their interventions..

[@NxNWhiskey]

Wow! This was the best explanation of why The Ring couldn't go West that I've ever heard. Finally makes sense to me! Thank you!

[@dwightkiefer8099]

Wow! I was just asking myself this very question yesterday when I rewatched the one about dropping it in the sea... Thank you for, presumably inadvertently, servicing my curiosity.

[@michaelholmes2520]

Great video, as always. My question/suggestion for another video is: what is the cannon of Isildur getting the ring? My impression from reading the book long ago was that they beat Sauron in battle, struck him down, and then cut the ring from what they assumed was his corpse, or at least, him lying there defeated. The movie makes it seem like it was more of a lucky slice, and that cutting the ring from his hand was the *cause* of the victory that day, not the result. So what really happened?

[@akiramasashi9317]

In the books Elendil and Gil-Galad killed Sauron and Sauron killed them. Sauron *was* dead but would return shortly enough with the Ring. Isildur cutting it off then and there was what prevented Sauron from rising again almost immediately.

[@Menulo]

It always feels kinda odd that "Men have to deal with it themself" since Sauron is not Human himself, he's an Old evil from way before Men. How is it their fault, or their responsibility? Unless you see it as a sort of exam, like slowly taking of the training wheels, since they did still get a lot of help.

[@erkindanger]

Similar to why Gandalf didn't march into the Shire and depose Saruman (a fellow Maia and in no way a problem caused by the hobbits) himself at the end of ROTK, even though he could have done so easily by that point: Gandalf's mandate was not to oppose power with power, not to command or compel; but instead to inspire, instruct, guide, counsel, and let the Free Peoples make their own choices and do the work themselves, whatever the outcome - as would be necessary going forward when "magical" middle-earth eventually became our own mundane earth.

[@tonyhinrichs1869]

I LOVE your channel brother!! I’m subscribed to ALOT of Tolkien lore channels and the way you describe middle earth coupled with your fantastic accent ( I’m American 🇺🇸) is both awe inspiring and detailed!! Thank you!!

[@codehaunta9878]

Great video as always!

[@chriswilliamsCKG]

I had this thought earlier today. It's funny how these coincidences happen. I'm just at the point in the fellowship where Aragorn reveals his identity to Boromir in the council of Elrond. I've never gotten all the way through the books, so the book lore is very new.

[@plebisMaximus]

You've started on quite the ride. The books only keep getting better, you got a lot to look forward to.

[@HuntingTarg]

Finish the books before watching any more Tolkien or Middle Earth videos. You will be so much the richer for it.

[@Ralph_Roberts]

Maybe you could do a video on how the ring effects different beings. How would shelob or Treebeard react to it if they just stumbled upon it?

[@MusoStuu]

I am new to your channel. I find your videos exciting, provoking, calming, and relaxing, and of course, very nerdy, which I love! Thank you so much for making them; they are clearly well crafted and lovingly made. We, your community, appreciate what you do ❤

[@DanielHochstrasser]

Elrond: The western road seems easiest, therefore it must be shunned. Pippin: The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm.

[@taWay21]

Why didn't Glorfindel help at the battle of Pelenor Fields, or the Siege of the Black Gate? Could you do a what if scenario where Maglor, who is said to still be roaming the shores singing sad songs by the War of the Ring, returns to help the heroes in their quest to destroy Sauron?

[@rmsgrey]

There were multiple assaults on Rivendell and Erebor that kept the northern forces of the Elves occupied while Sauron's main thrust was directed at Gondor.

[@JohnPeacekeeper]

@@rmsgrey This. Legolas even mentions this in both the book and the movie, that war is going on up North. And it was, in fact, vitally important that Erebor did not fall, because if they fell, then there was nothing stopping Sauron's Northern forces to come South and overwhelm Gondor There were several reasons Gandalf needed Erebor reclaimed. A big reason was to deny Sauron a dragon ally, but another was to ensure that Erebor's key position was held by allies of free peoples.

[@renferal5290]

Perfect timing. Your voice is so soothing to listen to. Now this is a very good video

[@E3ECO]

I've been wondering if it's actually his voice or if he uses one of those artificial voices like so many other youtubers do.

[@expred]

@@E3ECO Worries of the modern age, huh 😁 I do not think it is AI voice. I've been listening to his voice for a while and I don't see signs of it being AI, even though I've been involved and interested about AI stuff for some time too so not completely unfamiliar with that either. Just doesn't seem AI. But in the end doesn't matter, if his content is good and I find the voice soothing , I do not care if it is artificial or not. 😃

[@evergreengoddess13]

Love your videos as always. A couple ideas for topics to cover - who or what do we know about the elves that stayed in valinor when most of the noldor went back to middle earth. And - why wasn’t Sauron aware of Bilbo when he would put on the ring, but only Frodo? And why did the Valar call the elves west when they awoke? Why didn’t they have them awake in Valinor if that’s where they wanted them? Thanks again for the phenomenal content!!

[@totalradicalsurrender7773]

Great artwork!

[@jgal-km1ds]

If Gollum had survived, would he have been able to take one of the ships to Valinor, since he too was a ring-bearer?

[@lyh3815]

maybe not since he had already been corrupted, Frodo and Bilbo going to the undying lands prevented further corruption, specially in frodo`s case with the nazgul wound, for Gollum, there was nothing to prevent anymore

[@BrooklynRedLeg]

Likely not since his mind was so broken. Plus, he likely couldn't even get on one of the hallowed ships of the Elves as it was...

[@Bruced82]

Why would he even want to go, the ring destroyed might make him go fully insane, too far gone.

[@loooongneck]

I’m pretty sure if gollum survived the ring’s destruction his mind would be irreparably shattered by the separation from it. Assuming his several century old body didn’t just give out the second the ring’s power was gone

[@jgal-km1ds]

But Gollum wasn't fully corrupted. Remember that Smeagol also warred with Gollum in The Two Towers, so there was still some part of Smeagol who wanted to help Frodo, insomuch as serving the master of the ring. It wasn't until Frodo's 'betrayal' of Smeagol to Faramir that Gollum becomes the dominate personality, but there isn't indication (my recollection) that Smeagol was completely gone.

[@TexasTimeLord]

The Ring could only be destroyed in the fire from which it was forged. Even if the Ring was in Valinor, Sauron would remain alive and conquer Middle Earth anyway.

[@asmith1022]

I'm guessing Aule could've figured out another way to destroy it.

[@midgetydeath]

Valar: "We can't get involved! Look what happened when we curbstomped Melkor in Beleriand. The place sank! We don't even know how that's possible since it's basically an underwater mountain, but somehow it happened." Me: "Fair point. But Sauron is a maia. You can squish him with literally a thought. Probably even from Valinor." Valar: "Uh, well, eh, hey look, a squirrel!" And that is how squirrels were made.

[@danielratcliffe3672]

Love the channel Robert ❤

[@allfields]

I check in on these videos every now and then. Glad to see you love to upload regularly.

[@corrinflakes9659]

Valinor: “we refuse to take it.” Fellowship: “we’re not asking you to take it, we’re asking about if your waste services for cursed artifacts are open right now.”

[@subhasish-m]

I'd love to see some info on the history of Rohan, how it formed between the two great kingdoms of Men, and why they were known for their horses.

[@maierwoodworks]

Read the section “Cirion and Eorl” in unfinished tales and you’ll get exactly what you’re looking for. Very touching story that won’t disappoint

[@theun4giv3n]

Thank you for your videos.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Pretty sure Sauron never ended up in Valinor. From my reading of the Silmarillion, he was one of Melkor's chief spies back when the Valar lived on Almaren, and aided him in bringing down the 2 Lamps. It makes no mention of him ever travelling to Valinor with the Valar, but it does say that he was Melkor's lieutenant in Angband prior to, and after, the War for the sake of the Elves.....when Melkor was captured by the Valar and Utumno was unroofed. All this tells me that Sauron remained behind with Melkor when the Valar fled to Valinor.

[@OSUforlife]

The council was very busy

[@danielkorladis7869]

I think you're basically correct. Sauron surely would have known that the council would consider the option and have spies and various agents on the path west from Rivendell and he also had control of the Corsairs of Umbar at the time so could have even taken the ring back at sea. Additionally the council had no way of knowing whether the Valar even actually could destroy the ring. They could take it all the way to Valinor only for the Valar to go "yeah, this has to be thrown into the fires of Mount Doom to destroy it." While the Valar may have refused it due to wanting the peoples of Middle Earth to deal with the problem themselves, I think to some degree they too may have feared its evil influence. After all, they knew that any one of them could potentially fall. Morgoth had originally been Valar. The most powerful (good) beings we encounter in LOTR, Gandalf, Galadrial, Elrond, all refuse to even touch the ring out of fear of being corrupted by it. Unrelated but I think you'd really enjoy The Malazan Book of the Fallen.

[@boredfangerrude8759]

As much as it sucks that the Valinor abandoned Middle Earth, it's pretty cool that they saw mortals as capable instead of children who needs to be controlled. Most higher beings in real mythology and fiction have the opposite perspective.

[@darrenyorston]

Great video!

[@andilenxele3729]

Whats the significance of the colour coding the istari/wizard's go by? Why is Gandalf the white seemingly more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and even Saruman the "multicolored" (former White)?

[@stoner36s]

I already know the answer but I do delight in the sound of your voice. Soothing.

[@TrainerCTZ]

One of the hardest workers on KZbin. Hats-off sir.

[@antonellamR2D2]

That's erywell researched, as usual

[@hurrayboy1995]

Hell yeah!

[@Thkaal]

Valinor: Yeah, we're going to allow one of us to screw things up over there. Elves: And we'll help him. Everyone else: Um, are you going to clean up your mess? Valinor: What mess? Elves: Fine, but we'll only help you understand the mess.

[@gravmath]

Nicely done and correctly capturing the underlying Catholic viewpoint that Tolkien espoused. That said, the Valar did 'help' during the Third Age, most notably the wind from the West on the morning of the Battle of the Pellanor Fields. But this help was in hidden form and, perhaps, Tolkien thought of it as a kind of actual grace.

[@VAPYD]

I love these! They always end with "but Mt. Doom was the only way, Illuvatar be praised!" lol

[@QuantumHistorian]

For the same reason as in the last video about chucking it in the sea... It's not enough to prevent Sauron from getting the ring, it has to be actively destroyed for the "free people of middle earth" to win

[@Big_Tex]

… because the slacker Valar are sitting in their butts doing nothing while one of their rogue subordinates is out wrecking the world.

[@plebisMaximus]

Some things never change.

[@jenniferwood144]

Well done

[@bluediamonddirector]

I was hoping you would cover this