Why Oberyn DEFEATS Jaime Lannister | Game of Thrones

[@jeremy1860]

"Who would win in a fight between" is one of those questions we all obsess over as kids, but the truth is that it's just as much fun to think about now that we're older 😊

[@shifterverse]

It sure is Jeremy! Your presence is most welcome as always! Liam

[@BigPurp9]

Funnily enough just yesterday I was wondering where Ragnar Lothbrok from Vikings would rank in the GoT world

[@li6mfilms]

@@BigPurp9very low

[@TheFandomeClips]

Thanks for the continued support Jeremy! - Thom

[@damonlillard3097]

Ok..... Jaime is a "master" with one weapon.... Oberyn is crazy efficient with a ton of weapons.... And Jaime wins that "weapons" portion of the list? Cap. It doesn't even make sense.

[@tacticalmanatee]

Oberyn also probably has a stamina advantage. He'd have to for the kind of group activities we see him enjoying.

[@shifterverse]

😂 now that is certainly true! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@jimclaus1576]

What people don’t mention is in his fight against The Mountain… in all actuality Oberyn lost before that poisonous stab. Remember… Mountain sliced Oberyn’s spear in three pieces and the squire had to toss him a new one. In a real fight, one on one in a field… The Mountain woulda sliced him in half eventually. I REALLY think Jaime has got this. Wouldn’t be easy! But prime Jaime eventually slices him down.

[@lenomagno]

“Woulda slice him in half eventually” such a great argument lmao

[@CufflinksAndChuckles]

Another aspect to this is that Oberyn hates Lannisters so much that he’s probably planned a duel against Jaime in advanced. I don’t know if they’ve ever been in the same places at the same times before GoT, but he’s probably had spies report back on Jamie’s fighting ability. Oberyn probably knows which arm (haha) Jamie favours. He probably knows what habits he has. I’m willing to relent that Jamie is a better swordsman than Oberyn is an overall warrior. But Oberyn might just be the ultimate Jamie killer. Even if he didn’t have a day to plan in advanced, he’d know enough about Jamie that he can immediately act on the knowledge and planning he’s already had.

[@robertopics]

The spear is most likely to Trump the sword.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Not most likely. It will. Having sparred vs spears a lot, a swordsman has to be several notches better than a spearman to beat them out of armor.

[@tianlandahl4590]

oberyn doesnt hate the lannisters he isnt fucked in the head like many other people in westeros he hates the killers of his sister that should be obvious if you paid any kind of attention

[@jimclaus1576]

@robertopics The Mountain sliced his spear into pieces. Oberyn had to be tossed a new one. If it was a fight in battle… he wouldn’t have had that option. Mountain would’ve finished him. Pretty sure a prime Lannister could manage doing the same.

[@lenomagno]

@@jimclaus1576if it was a fight in battle you really think he wouldn’t consider that and idk maybe carry an extra weapon? He already knew that was a possibility and thats why he only carried one spear and nothing else, Jaime has no chance

[@kylecharles4333]

In terms of future Vs that aren't fights I would like to see Spymaster Vs Spymaster with Little finger Vs Varys since they have a heated rivalry and a change from brawn to brains.

[@shifterverse]

Absolutely fantastic suggestion Kyle! Definitely noted! Our whose better whose worse comes in pairs. This time its whose better (fighter) Jaime vs Oberyn and whose worse (Villain) ramsey vs Gregor! But I honestly love that suggestion for the next whose better!

[@warlordofbritannia]

Oooo, that’s an intriguing twist on the idea

[@cdcdrr]

It may be too early to say, but I think Larys Strong could be an interesting addition to the spy versus spy game. He certainly has the creep factor of Littlefinger, and his fireflies could be his signature underlings similar to Varys' little birds. But with how nihilistic he is, it's hard to say if there's anything he won't do. Unlike Littlefinger, whose fixation with Catelyn and Sansa, and his personal fantasy of being some heroic trickster in the mold of Lann the Clever leads him to have some blind spots. While Varys clearly abhors mages and all who are taken in by prophecy and sorcery, like Stannis, closing off certain avenues of information gathering and alliances.

[@shifterverse]

@@cdcdrr some pretty good points there Cdcdrr 👌 I certainly won't plagiarise them and pass them off as my own when i write the script for this one ;) Liam

[@kylecharles4333]

ooh a triple threat match does sound fun @@cdcdrr

[@thisguy8106]

How much of a beast was Barristan?.. he went into a castle by himself and rescued the King in that castle. 😆 that's insane when you think about it.

[@shifterverse]

Hes the god dam MAN thats for sure! 😂 Hes bloody brilliant as an old man, prime young Baristan sounds borderline underdefeatable. His nick name Barristan the Badass is well deserved! Thanks for watching gamingwiththisguy! Liam

[@thisguy8106]

@@shifterverse it's the medieval fantasy version of Mission Impossible level stuff by going in alone and rescuing a King. It's incredible!😆

[@shifterverse]

@@thisguy8106 Whats even more astounding is that the Lannisters know about that and STILL kick him from the kings guard. He's an assassins worst nightmare 😂 "This wall around the keep isn't to protect the king from you, it's to protect you from me" -Barristan the Bold.........probably. 😂

[@thisguy8106]

@@shifterverse to be fair.. had Tywin or Jamie been in Kings Landing when Cersei made that stupid decision, it wouldn't have happened. The first thing Tywin complains to Tywin about is Barristan being kicked out the King's Guard.

[@Noir0rioN]

he was... an Artist. A painter... Who only used red.

[@juliusmunemo8754]

We don't get this in the show but in the books when Oberyn stabs Gregor into the ground the tip of his spear buries into the cement and the mountain can't get up. The burst head happens on top of the mountain facing the sky because he's still fucking nailed to the STONE ground of the outer wall tiny detail but thats thats some fucking wild strength, there's a lotta gregor to push through even before you hit the rock beneath him

[@shifterverse]

No doubt Julius, the viper isn't one to underestimate. We've got to remember that thrust was for Elia, it probably had every last ounce of Oberyns will, anger and righteous fury behind it. I'm surprised it didn't split the earth in two 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam

[@desmondgentle1474]

In the book, Oberyn's spear is nine feet long. It is stated after he pins the Mountain down that four feet of spear jutted from his belly. That means that FIVE feet of spear is lodged in the ground through the Mountain.

[@shifterverse]

@@desmondgentle1474 9 ft? My memory of the books must be fading 😅 lve been saying its 8ft on all our vids. 5ft of pentration into the ground thats almost super human lol

[@Jaggaraz218]

Either the spear is magic or GRR Martin is an idiot when it comes to armour and weapons. A spear would never pierce plate both front and back (Unless it hit an unarmoured spot, which should not exist, it's been years since I read the book) it would've been extremely unlikely to even pierce the front plate.

[@Jaggaraz218]

​@@shifterverseAnd super woody wood shaft as well. And a diamond spearhead against valyrian rubber armour and floor

[@bateenuchiha8566]

You forgot to mention that jaime considered baristen, the hound, and the mountain as his rivals, while oberyn was just toying with the mountain! So it's fair to say that obyren wins

[@shifterverse]

That's a fantastic point! It's definitely a close one. I'd say without any preparation this is one of the closest match ups in the GOT verse, basically 50/50 (assuming it's not sword vs sword, Jaime will take that shit 10/10) Thanks for watching! Liam

[@bloodangel19]

Also no matter what i don't think Jamie could ever beat the moutain. Gregor has a reach as big as Lannister's whole body. He couldn't get close enough to land his blow. Oberyn had almost a meter of range on Gregor.

[@drunkintn]

Yet, Oberyn got his skull crushed in.

[@maxb8749]

Ur literally making that up. Ur referring to the show only line where he says "there are 3 men in the kingdom that might stand a chance against me." and people guess that its Clegane bros and Barristan. First of all that's a show only line so its non canon and second of all he says "might stand a chance against me" not "that rival me".

[@bateenuchiha8566]

@@maxb8749 I'm not sure if it was in this channel or another channel that they talked about who these 3 might be and they were the 3 that i mentioned, and about it being just "a show thing" well in the book oberyn embarrassed the mountain even more, the mountain couldn't even touch him until the end! And Mr.Genius "might have a chance beating me" means they could rival him🤦🏻‍♂️ you can't have the chance to win against someone if you can't rival him. Nonetheless Oberyn kills jaime

[@X525Crossfire]

Jaime learned how to fight; Oberyn learned how to kill.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Definitely true, though I don't think Jaime slacks in the killing department 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam

[@fox2569]

@@TheFandomeClipsYou’re giving him too much credit, Jaime also learned how to kill lol

[@theherbitonican1857]

Jamie would unequivocally kill Oberyn. It’s basically objective if you have read the books. If you wanted to make it specifically left handed jamie then, at least there is a fight to be had. However, if Illyn Payne had trained him already then it’s still a wrap for oberyn.

[@wildyoda2931]

@@theherbitonican1857uh not too sure about that bro lol in a sword fight Jamie wins but if obyren has his spear I don’t think Jamie will stand a chance in that distance

[@theherbitonican1857]

@@wildyoda2931 Jamie would mall oberyn with his bare hands regardless of what weapon oberyn is using. Jamie is the best warrior, not just swordsman. Jamie is a dawg that no one is willing to fuck with in the books. The show did not do justice with the depth of how lethal Jamie really was. Even the first comment on this thread is ludicrous. Jamie isn’t just a fighter he is all together going to kill anyone in his way in any means or capacity.

[@WQuantrill]

Oberyn is the type of guy to enlist in the French Foreign Legion for the stories lol

[@TheFandomeClips]

So true or to go bear wrestling just for the shits and giggles 😂

[@errtuownsyou]

Generalists tend to perform well against specialists, spears tend to perform well against swords. The Viper has this one in the bag 9 times out of 10.

[@shifterverse]

Very true regarding generalists vs specialists and Spear vs Sword. The Spear is known as the king of weapons for a reason, a sword is a side arm, a fantastic backup weapon and great in civilian environments and when indoors in cramped spaces, but not often carried to battle on its own (unless its a whopping great big greatsword) Thanks for watching! Liam

[@Divinemakyr]

Jaime has armour.

[@errtuownsyou]

@@Divinemakyr Sometimes, sure. Lots of the fights we see Jaime in, he is fighting unarmored. Oberyn can have armor too in that case. Not that it's terribly important, Oberyn has already demonstrated how effective he can be against an armored opponent. Bronn knows what I'm talking about.

[@Divinemakyr]

@@errtuownsyou Talking more books less show, using more real logic rather than ASOIAF logic. Jaime has armour more in the books, and Oberyn beating the Mountain is grossly unrealistic.

[@JohnCena-um5uo]

What makes you think Jaime would choose to fight with a sword against the spear

[@garlantyrell8030]

Margaery Tyrell vs Cersei Lannister -not fighting. You know what I mean

[@shifterverse]

I think I know what you mean (who loves Tomman more right?) suggestion noted 😂 Liam

[@natedaniels3655]

Is... is this a "sex" thing?

[@garlantyrell8030]

@@natedaniels3655 not really. In general, not really much of a fight between these two, although….hmm 🤔

[@ekon.murry.5143]

Margaery Tyrell anyday...😂😂

[@donalny]

embroidery?

[@Rockstago]

I'm glad it was pointed out that when Jamie had a duel with Brienne he was not at his best- being a captive for a year, lacking nutrition, sanitary conditions & unable to move or get any kind exercise- Jamie would have been far less capable than he normally would have been. Not to mention having his hands chained- this encounter REALLY wouldn't have reflected his abilities.

[@shifterverse]

Aye Rockstago! We put it in there to show just how dam high his endurance is. We wanted to give both warriors their fair due and be as even handed as we could. Brienne is a potential top 10 warrior in westeros and she could just about hold Jaime off in an absolutely dismal state of health. At full strength Jaime is something to fear. I know we went with Oberyn as the winner, but it was not intended as a dig on Jaime, he's an absolute beast. Oberyn was the only guy with a few feats (to help us make a case) and a reputation of legendary status that we thought could reasonably challenge him. The only other guys we could have put on the table were Arthur Dayne and Selmy, but because all 3 fight in the same way we couldn't come to any conclusion other than "Dayne wins because of Dawn, otherwise any could take it on a day that favours them" 😂 which would have made for a very short, boring video lol. Still we're going to try it one day I'm sure. Thanks for watching Rockstago! Liam

[@Rockstago]

@@shifterverse I hope in my message I didn't make you think I disagreed. Not AT ALL! I totally agreed with your conclusion & more so, the reasons you gave to arrive at those conclusions. I have always had the position that Jamie was at a HUGE disadvantage when trying to escape from Brienne, I just never heard anybody else take that into consideration. I always hated that in the show, we never saw Jamie display his talents. The closest we saw was when he swiftly took out Ned Stark's household guard in the capitol but, because of honor, wasn't able to fight Ned directly. Even though subtle, I felt that Jamie's story, his journey throughout his life was the best path of redemption. When it was revealed how unfairly he was judged, even from the fair-minded Ned Stark when he told Brienne what he did at King's Landing- for me that was a heroic & tragic story arc of Jamie Lannister.

[@shifterverse]

@@Rockstago not at all mate, and yeah, I hear all the time "Jaimes not that good he got beat by Brienne" and "Brienne must be the best fighter ever she beat Jaime and the hound" And all I can think is, yeah she beats them both, but both are starving and fatigued. One is chained and suffering muscle atrophy and the other wounded and potentially suffering sepsis. Brienne is so badass, one of the best in the game, but ain't no way she'd beat ethier of them at something resembling full strength. Both are the deadliest swordsmen in the land.

[@johnhickman8391]

Oberon was ready to fight Jamie when he came to Kingslanding. Oberons knowledge and experience wins out here.

[@shifterverse]

Absolutely John! Its the prep that will kill Jaime. If they're both dropped in cold I think its a far more in line with a 50/50 shot for each. If its swords Jaime will win 10/10, anything else I'd go with Oberyn. Talent + Experience often trumps talent alone! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@tianlandahl4590]

and jamie would have killed him with both hands

[@perfectmarnon]

From what we know, Jaime is a better swordsman than oberyn is a warrior. That being said Oberyn with a spear vs Jamie with sword Oberyn wins hands down. Just by sheer advantage of the spear. Having an extra 2-3 feet of reach is nearly insurmountable, unless the swordsman is miles better, but that's not the case here

[@shifterverse]

Someone knows their HEMA and also understands why the spear was considered a primary weapon and the sword a side arm! Thanks for tuning in Marnon! Liam

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

In a realistic setting, you would generally be correct. However, this is a fantasy series. And George himself said Jaime (in the timeline of ASOIAF) would be his first pick to defend him in a Trial by Combat. Creator's word goes, so this already means Jaime wins by default. But let's be a bit more nuanced than that and review this more in depth. Spears might be a better general primary when all else is equal, but I've seen guys with literal daggers beat spearmen in HEMA due to simply knowing how to deal with spears and having a skill/experience advantage. Nick, one of the instructors from the Academy of Historical Fencing, has done it more than once for example. I as a hobbyist fencer with a ton of experience in other martial arts (Judo, BJJ, Kickboxing) am also fantastic at it because closing the gap IS my natural habitat as opposed to people favoring a spear or polearm who have no prior martial arts experience. A spear doesn't equal a guaranteed win. They can be bypassed. There's videos of it happening even in competition. With full plate armor, it is absolutely possible. All you need is to deflect a single thrust. Once you lunge past the speartip, you are clear of danger and are outright advantaged with a smaller weapon. This is why the Japanese created Iajitsu, the drawing slash. It's why their sheathes were upside down. Because that stuff happened all the time, and the drawing slash was created specifically to immediately drop the spear and get rid of the close quarters threat that had just bypassed your spear. And Jigoro Kano then created Judo to counter the drawing slash by using the momentum of those slashes into tossing the opponent. It was pure combat evolution, and the spear was only the peak (lol) of the chain. It's where it began, not where it ended. And since Oberyn is no Samurai with a few years of Judo, and has no katana, wakizashi and tanto at the ready, he'd be in hot water when his spear gets bypassed. I'd bet on Jaime despite the weapons favoring Oberyn. Why? Because all else is not equal. Jaime is bigger, better, more experienced against spears than Oberyn is against longswords, and has full plate armor. Anything short of a massive hit to an unarmored part of Jaime's body would do quite literally nothing for Oberyn. And any hit that fails would be countered immediately, especially since Jaime has a reach/height advantage and is actually extremely fast and agile, unlike The Mountain. Remember those four times Oberyn got his spear stuck on The Mountain's plate armor? He'd be dead if that happened against Jaime. Also, Jaime is almost as good with spears, lances, maces and axes as he is with a sword. Barristan said it in the books, and he said it himself to Cercei in the show too. Who said Jaime HAD to pick a sword? Why not both a spear and a sword?

[@shifterverse]

@@TheStraightestWhitest Hey dude I remember you from the mountain vid! Your insight is definitely appreciated! I agree that spear doesn't guarantee a win, but having also done HEMA my experience leaves me with a far less favourable opinion about getting past that point. I've seen tournament winning highly skilled swordsman struggle against even low level spearman. Its not impossible for a sudden charge past the point to work, but I don't think its nearly as easy or reliable as your making it sound 😂 the spear often takes it at least twice as many times as the swordsman. A shield helps but even then that point moves so dam quick from foot to head that even a kite shield sometimes can't keep you covered properly, especially if the spearman knows what they are doing and is nimble with the point. I need to go back and read the books, my memory of Jaime is Sword sword sword and just very good with other weapons. Word from Baristan should not be discounted and if Jaime is that good, combined with your arguments, I might have to rethink my decision on this vid in some regards. Touching on the authors word. The authors word is important, but this is the same guy who said Jaime would beat Aragon from LOTR which is an extremely controversial take to alot of people. Jaime and Oberyn are both his characters so fairs fair, a little more weight behind his words but with that Aragon statement It might be fair to say he is a little biased and quite protective over his favourites and isn't been objective? An author can say something about their characters, but it doesn't make it true. He stated outright that Arya Stark is a Pyschopath, and anyone with any psychological knowledge (im University level educated but not a professional in the field) can tell you that she is in no way even close to possessing enough of the traits to be deemed one. GRRM may have intended for her to be a Pyschopath, but her actions and feelings and capacity for empathy in the story prove otherwise. My point being, that once a good writer (and GRRM is a dam good writer) breathes life into a character, they become an entity unto themselves. He breathed life into both Jaime and Oberyn as these legendary warriors, both are renowned and both have arguments to be made why they would beat the other. Both have great feats to back up their skills, both have black smudges (well red smudges for Oberyn) that throw their untouchable status outside the window. The author knows the characters better than anyone else and has the strongest idea of what they might do or how something might play out, but until that characters actions are committed to the pages of the official story, the authors thoughts are just opinions that can be deemed subjective, at least in my opinion. Until its on the pages anything can happen, all anyone can do (including the author) is guess. Which to me is a good thing because it leads to fun conversations and debates like this with your good self instead of an echo chamber of "I'm right" "Yeah I know" 😂

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

@@shifterverse All fair points. Until it happens, we can't know. And I think George meant the Arya statement more in the traditional sense of a psychopath rather than the psychological evaluation of one. She definitely has the traits. The downright curiosity without ANY empathy in her first kills for example. Psychopaths don't have empathy for anyone which definitely isn't the case for Arya, but sane people can't just feel nothing when they stab a begging dude or slice their throat and outright seem curious like Hannibal Lecter as to what they're going through. I think she's somewhere in between. Not a total psychopath, but definitely a screw loose. As for George's bias, it's definitely there. The Aragorn/Jaime point is a great example. It's ridiculous. However as you pointed out, the reason his word there holds no weight isn't just his bias. It's the fact that it's not his authority to decide who'd win since he doesn't own both characters. So while it does show he can be biased, the reason it devalues his word isn't because of the bias, but because of lack of authority on the subject. This however is all his to say. So if he's biased to Jaime which may well be the case, it simply results in Jaime being stronger. Plus, I don't think it's just bias. He says Samwell Tarly is his own self insert basically. The chubby stepfather with a heart of gold but with no martial prowess or great feats to speak of. So bias isn't very much in the equation when it comes to his own characters among themselves I think. Martin mostly just lacks historical/martial knowledge on the subject. That's pretty clear from the way he describes Barristan's fight with Belwas for example. However, this is still his series, so his word still goes even if it would contradict what would happen in a realistic replication of that same scenario. And it's the pairing of Martin's word + the deduction of any reasonable way a swordsman can beat a spearman however unlikely that makes me draw my conclusion. It comes down predominantly to armor. If I had to pick no armor + spear or full plate + longsword, I'm picking the latter. And that's despite me preferring the agile fighting style over the stocky tanky one when it comes to Judo and kickboxing. I'm lean and fast paced. I move around very quickly. But plate armor is just so damn strong. As I pointed out, it took Oberyn four attempts at Gregor's armor before he found an opening, one of which broke his spear, the other of which got him knocked down. And Gregor isn't a tenth as skilled or fight aware as Jaime. What if Oberyn doesn't have a second spear tossed in by a nearby squire? What if he gets knocked down against Jaime who unlike The Mountain isn't slow and unathletic (not for his size, but the man is 8ft)? Too many variables of risk for me to pick Oberyn over Jaime.

[@randomhank]

This is the Way

[@jameshedrick4490]

I think it's important to consider a situation outside a trial by combat where both fighters have time to prepare and know what they'll be facing. While Oberyn is more adaptable and changes his weapons, armor, and style for the opponent, it would be an entirely different thing if he and Jaime came face to face randomly without time to prep and study for the fight. Oberyn wins because of his knowledge of his enemy. Take that away and he is still deadly, but can't play to true mastery of a single weapon.

[@shifterverse]

This is a great point James ill make a note of it for future vids! I know a lot of people like the idea of characters been dropped in cold with no knowledge of who they are facing, and perhaps we will do a "with prep" and "In cold" in our next fighter based video. But I also think the mind is an often overlooked aspect thats pretty important to what determines a great warrior in an overall all sense. You see it with the greatest boxers and UFC fighters all the time, half the battle is who can get into the others head and who paid attention and adjusted their style to who they are fighting. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts! Liam

[@jameshedrick4490]

@@shifterverse Of course the warrior's mind also has to play and indeed adapt very quickly in a cold fight. I'll call it cunning vs warrior instinct, cunning to plan for a fight in the long term, pure warrior instinct to adapt and fight in the moment with no time to plan.

[@andrewbuchanan415]

They meet randomly in an alley and Oberyn just sticks a dagger in Jamie's back...

[@jameshedrick4490]

@@andrewbuchanan415 They meet on randomly on the battlefield unprepared to face each other and armed with their standard equipment. Jaime's mastery of the sword and superior strength, speed, and fitness, as well as his ability in one to one knightly duels means he wins when Oberyn can't employ any sort of tricks or treachery.

[@tylerherrod3454]

​@jameshedrick4490 you mean like fighting overseas in a mercenary company along with gladiatorial fights in the colluseum? Oberyn has every ounce of warrior instinct as he does cunning. The only people Jamie thinks stand a chance are the Cleganes and Selmey. His arrogance leads him to believe no one can beat him other than Barringston the Bold, Arthur freaking Dayne or people 3 times his size. Oberyn has Jaimie VASTLY outmatched in a battlefield situation. Oberyn forged 6 links in a maesters chain ffs, the guy is supremely intelligent to boot. And I don't want to hear about the fight at the whispering woods, Robb was trying to capture Jamie so he would have that bargaining chip for his sisters, it's alot easier to kill someone when they're not trying to kill you, and the same goes for Brienne.

[@Sorrus-B4lyfe]

= Yes. Because Jaime has never left Westeros… a world where everyone has long swords. Shields exists, spears exists, axes exists… but seemingly everyone has LongSwords. Oberyn has been all over the world and has experience against diversed opponents. He also coats his spear in poison… all he needs is one small cut.

[@shifterverse]

That's Jaime's big problem in our opinion. Oberyn can afford a superficial wound and fight on. Jaime can't afford to get caught once, if he is, all Oberyn has to do is bide his time and keep Jaime at bay while the poison does it's magic. People think that Oberyns poison takes days to kick in, which isn't true. He purposefully altered the Manticore venom to make it slow and painful for Gregor. Manticore venom kills fast, like very fast. Oberyn just needs one nick then about 30-60 seconds of holding Jaime off and Jaime is done for. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@AstroSully]

@@shifterverseAt that point might as wel bring in Dragons into the conversation if we’re gonna ise poison 😂

[@shifterverse]

@@AstroSully last time I checked Jaime didn't have access to a dragon like Oberyn has access to poisons 😂 would be quite the game changer if he did

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Absolutely delusional, Jaime wears full plate and is a small and agile target, good luck using a spear to poison him, what's going to happen is that he's going to block the spear, close the distance, and then grab it and stab him,

[@facundomedina9762]

Oberyn's description reminds me of the “Batman with prep time” scenarios

[@jameshedrick4490]

One thing that can be said for having one weapon specialization is that you can travel around all day with that weapon and gear and be prepared to go into action. The majority of fights that occur both in the real world and fantasy happen randomly when people are not prepared for it. You usually don't have time to plan to counter your opponent and select your specific weapon and armor. If you have to go into battle or travel a long journey best to carry what you are most skilled with and therefore be as prepared as you can for any situation.

[@-_-5470]

Interesting discussion, thanks! It might also be interesting to look at other characters (similar to Oberyn) about who we do not have lots of information except that they are respected to be really outstanding warriors, like Victarion Greyjoy, Garlan Tyrell, the Greatjon, Bronze John Royce or Areo Hotah

[@shifterverse]

Your welcome! Glad you found it interesting! We will keep your suggestions in mind for future "whose the better fighter" match ups! Our next vid in this series is whose worse (as a villain) Ramsey Bolton or Gregor Clegaine! Thanks for stopping by! Liam

[@warlordofbritannia]

@@shifterverse It’s gotta be Ramsay-the Mountain is more a tool of Tywin’s than an actual antagonist…unless you mean who’s a worse villain in a qualitative sense rather than moral 😂

[@shifterverse]

@@warlordofbritannia we're going for whose the most fucked up and twisted as our qualifier, basically who would be the one you'd want to contend with the least if you were one of their helpless victims, we'll cover things like their pyschology, how they abuse their respectable attributes and so forth, were not quite done with the script and ill not spoil it but Ramsey gets quite a few of the edges 😂

[@warlordofbritannia]

@@shifterverse Oh boi, sounds horrible Can’t wait lol

[@maxb8749]

Victarion is overrated imo not even top 3 in the Iron Islands. I can't believe people put him on their top 10

[@athatcher9367]

Without any prep time I think Jaime wins the battle here 7/10 times… but of those 7 times 6.5 times he dies later from the poisoning… However, should Oberyn use a poison that will act very very fast, I think he wins 8/10 times, because I definitely see him getting in the first hit in most of these fights, just not lethal hits without the poison. If they have time to prep against one another I imagine Oberyn wins almost every time because he would spend all of that time preparing to counter Jaime specifically whereas Jaime might not train much or at all to beat Oberyn.

[@thelateescapist8266]

I actually think a morning star or spiked flail would be a better weapon to counter Jamie, than a spear. A swordsman of Jaimie's skill and agility would probably have an easy time getting inside the reach of a pole arm, at which point the weapons length becomes a liability. Even Gregor managed this at one point in his duel with Oberyn. Where as bludgeoning and piercing are the most effective ways to nullify the defenses of plate armor, and a mace or flail is still an agile enough weapon to counter a longsword in close combat.

[@shifterverse]

Thats a pretty dam good suggestion! A flail certainly messes with the longswords defensive viability, nullify the sword and maybe get in close and wrestle woth daggers, or maybe get a good clonk on the head to knock Jaimeslights out 😂, though I do believe in the books Jaime also pairs a shield with his sword (could be misremembering though) I also agree a good swordsman CAN get past a spear, but it is extremely hard even for a master. Only anecdotal evidence but back when I did a bit of HEMA I watched a reasonably skilled spearman keep a bonefied tournament winning swordmaster at bay with little effort. The spearman was also told to strike as if the swordsman was armoured to make it somewhat manageable for the swordsman and he had no difficulty getting to the unarmoured spots (armpits, neck, face, even the back of the knees) whatsoever. Out of roughly 30 rounds the swordsman closed and won maybe 2-3 times. The lesson was the importance of reach 😂 When the skill difference is small like it is with Oberyn and Jaime I'd bet on the guy with the reach advantage every time. Not to shit on Jaime though, make it sword vs sword and he's going 10/10 on The Viper! Thanks for watching and for sharing your suggestions! Liam

[@dukedase7]

Fair but I think you're wrong. I think the best weapon would be a 12 guage shotgun loaded with slugs. Reason being it gives you an event greater range advantage, and the slugs would penetrate plate armor pretty easily. If Jaime isn't down in the first shot, a 2nd or 3rd would surely finish him. Especially since he'd likely be on his ass at that point. I'm not sure why OP thinks melee weapons would be used by Oberyn when he could just bring a shotgun.

[@thelateescapist8266]

@@dukedase7 🤣 You speak of utter knavery!

[@shifterverse]

@@dukedase7 Brilliant 😂 But why opt for such a small firearm when Oberyn could rock up in a tank? That way he has the range advantage and he's armoured head to toe?

[@dukedase7]

I don't believe cavalry is allowed in the duel. It must be on foot.

[@debater452]

The true question is if Jaime can beat a cult of Cthulhu

[@shifterverse]

Well TWOG certainly thinks so 😂 along with Aragon and Hermione Granger 😂 Thanks for watching Debater! Liam

[@DKMediaStarWars]

​@@shifterverseCthulhu = Euron Greyjoy the Kraken Hermione = Red Priestess of Asshai Aragorn = Maybe Jon or the young Griff? Maybe Jaime can beat one of them😂

[@Mvenven]

y’all forget that Jaime fought in the war of five kings and killed many Northmen of repute in Battle. So sure, Oberyn might have a bit more experience but it’s not Jamie hasn’t proven himself in Battle

[@shifterverse]

We certainly did! And we fully admit fault 😂 though in our defense, besides mopping the floor with a Frey force it was minor skirmishes that could fall under our mention of "minor scuffs" and it still doesn't put him on the same level experience wise Its reminded me to triple check our scripts in future 😂 thanks for watching Mvenven! Liam

[@maxb8749]

Yea Catelyn Stark thinks Jaime is an expierenced battle commander as well as a fierce warrior so I think he was a general in the Grey Joy Rebellion or something. Which makes sense because it's quite common for Kingsguard to be commanding armies.

[@als3022]

If I remember right Jaimie fought for the first time as a boy during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, then he fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion, he missed Robert's Rebellion and just killed the king. BUt he has plenty of war experience before the War of the Five Kings

[@Noir0rioN]

GODS he was STRONG then!!

[@ucnguyenanh9414]

​@@als3022Agaisnt the kingwoods brotherhood, not the Ninepenny Kings, ninepenny was Tywin's.

[@BigBumms]

Oberyn just wins.. It is rather hard to compare them. Jaime is one of the best warriors in Westeros ..certainly not as strong as Ser Arthur Dayne or Prime Robert Baratheon, but strong nontheless. Oberyn on the other hand, is a master-trained duelist. He excels in 1 versus 1 situations, where Jaime is more useful on the battlefield itself. So.. who is the greater warrior? Jaime. Who would win a fight in a regular 1 versus 1 scenario? Oberyn. I liked the video! Edit: Furthermore, it is important to note that this discussion is not just a topic of skill or experience, it is also a huge difference in weapon choice, considering that Oberyn laces his weapons with highly effective poison which would result in his immediate victory. I respect Jaime's ability to fight, but Oberyn has to be lucky once, Jaime has to be lucky all the time throughout the duel.

[@shifterverse]

Thanks Cembrunert! Good points made! I think there's also the fact that so long as Oberyn nicks Jaime once he'll always have killed his opponent. So its etheir Oberyn wins or double death. We'll try to keep them coming! Thanks for watching! Liam

[@dtczyk8976]

I think you have it flipped, oberyn fought in battles, Jamie fought in tourneys

[@BigBumms]

⁠@@dtczyk8976I get what you point but I am talking about the way they were trained from a young age. As mentioned in the video, both have received royal-like training in the arts of combat. Tywin focused on a soldier-type training for his son, as stated and seen throughout the events of this lovely series. Oberyn enjoyed the training of a duelist rather than a warrior, yet has experience regardless.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

@@dtczyk8976 Jaime also fought in battles.

[@Franckenstein2]

He’s far better than prime Robert wtf

[@Lunacorva]

On the point of their weaponry. "A Jack of All Trades but a Master of None is often quite better than a Master of One."

[@danadams05]

Oberyn, Both skilled but… There’s a reason pikes/spears were used more than swords in medieval warfare. Someone skilled with a pole arm could keep a swordsman at distance IMHO.

[@TheFandomeClips]

Spears are known as the king of weapons for a reason. A half decent spearman can often overcome a very skilled swordsman, make the spearman skilled and the odds only get worse for that sword. We love Jaime and we think he's got the skill edge but with Oberyn been up there on the skill front also combined with the reach advantage, and piling on the poison, we just think its highly unfavourable for The Kingslayer. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@diomed4570]

yep and the reasons is: spear 10 times cheaper and requires 10 times less training time to be useful in a hand of average man, spears also great in mass battles with combat formations. But in the 1v1 I honestly think sword has mass advantage.

[@kaievoke]

you're saying this like jaime cant use a spear lmao, have you read the books?

[@kaievoke]

@@TheFandomeClips any reason we're acting like jaime has never picked up a spear?

[@seanysalami]

Anyone who says power scaling and hypothetical fights between characters is pointless are lying or just boring lol. I loved this!

[@shifterverse]

And we loved that you loved it Seanysalami! As long as no one gets butthurt and views it as some kind of serious political debate with serious real life implications, we think discussions like this are fun! Its entertaining to say "I think so and so would win here's why" and for someone to politely come back with "I disagree, here's why" It makes for fun debate. Thanks for watching! Liam (I am part of the channel, just responding from a different channel of mine)

[@seanysalami]

@@shifterverse exactly it's all in good fun

[@KingSlayer_.]

As a Jamie fan boy, let me poliety correct you on a few things you got wrong in the video😂 1.) Just because Oberyn has more experience than Jamie does doesn't mean he has more knowledge. Jamie knows his way around fighting just as much, if not more, than Oberyn does. 2.) Jamie mentioned he knows that Oberyn poisons his spear and say what you want about how cunning he is, he's not going to take a fight like that against Oberyn. He'll demand that he fights one even ground without any dishonerable tactics being used. 3.) Having a spear against someone with a sword might seem like an advantage, but only against someone like the mountain where he's too slow to get close and can be kept at reach using the spear. The same tactics won't work against someone like Jamie, who is stronger and just as fast. 4.) Oberyn was able to beat the mountain because he was able to exploit clear and obvious weakness like his lack of speed. Jamie doesn't have any obvious weaknesses like that. It'd be much harder to decide just what to do against a fighter like Jamie and what gear and weapons to pick. They dont know each other personally and haven't seen each other fight. I think that this is easily the biggest problem Oberyn would face. 5.) Spears don't go well against swords. All Jamie has to do is close the gap, and the fight would be over. He's stronger and more skilled. You might argue Oberyn could pull a dirk or a dagger once that happens, but Jamie would be ready for it, considering he did the same thing against Jort Cassel. For these reasons, you wouldn't want to bet against Jamie in a fight like this. Dont get me wrong. Oberyn could certainly beat Jamie, but depending on the circumstances, I think the King Slayer takes this one 7 times out of 10.

[@shifterverse]

Wow a reasonably made argument, spoken as though from the King Slayers mouth itself 😂 Some good points, although I have a few rebuttals if you'll allow it Kingslayer (I know its you behind that keyboard Jaime 😉 I'm surprised you can type with only one hand) -The knowledge thing is an extremely fair point (which is why Jaime got that edge) your life is basically training, sister love, bodyguard duty and tournaments. But there is something to be said about training vs real world experience. Its why sometimes (and I stress sometimes) a professional fighter might get knocked out in a street fight (he's not expecting the kick to the crotch or the glass bottle to his face) -your severely underestimating the difficulty of closing the gap with sword against a spear. Even a journey man spear practioner can often keep a bonefied sword master at bay with little difficulty. In the hands of a expert its even worse. There's a reason the spear is considered a primary weapon and the sword is seen as a side arm. Agility and strength can only do so much against such a reach disadvantage, even more so when you opponent is comparably agile and fast. -You don't get to demand anything Ser! In a real historical judicial duel, absolutely, equality of equipment (and sometimes even skill and training) were often the rules. In westeros though we've seen enough trials to see its basically "take and use what you want" kind of deal 😂 you may not like it Ser and you may think it isn't fair, but this is Westeros! Westeros isn't fair! Thanks for watching Kingslayer! Liam

[@KingSlayer_.]

@@shifterverse Thank you for the reply. Jamie Lannister is one of the best swordsmen to ever exist, as stated by the author himself. If anyone could get the gap closed, it'd be him. He'd know that's what he'd need to do in order to secure a kill. Also, as for your last point that Westeros isn't fair, that may be true. But it's just as I said Jamie wouldn't accept a fight against any kind of a poisoned weapon. That's something he finds contemptible. I stand by my original estimate that in a trial by combat cenario without any poison or other cheap tricks, Jamie wins 7 times out of 10.

[@alanrickett2537]

Sorry you are wrong on the spear v sword multiple fights in HEMA have shown sword v spear goes to spear.

[@kaievoke]

@@alanrickett2537 na sorry

[@didncozosksma4466]

No, you’re wrong, because I said so. So I won this heated debate.

[@NiraSader]

Oberyn is the kind of guy who pull out the weird pocket pick meta counter that leaves the audience scratching their heads until he actually gets away with it.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

In a realistic setting, you guys would generally be correct. However, this is a fantasy series. And George himself said Jaime (in the timeline of ASOIAF) would be his first pick to defend him in a Trial by Combat. I also believe Oberyn wasn't even in the top 3. I only remember Jaime being first and Brienne being third. Creator's word goes, so this already means Jaime wins by default. But let's be a bit more nuanced than that and review this more in depth the way you did. Spears might be a better general primary when all else is equal, but I've seen guys with literal daggers and bucklers beat spearmen in HEMA due to simply knowing how to deal with spears and having a skill/experience advantage. Nick, one of the instructors from the Academy of Historical Fencing, has done it more than once for example. Once in a weapon rotation where they rolled a dice and took a weapon based on what they rolled. The better fighter tended to win no matter the weapon. I as a hobbyist fencer with a ton of experience in other martial arts (Judo, BJJ, Kickboxing) am also fantastic at bypassing spears because closing the gap IS my natural habitat as opposed to people favoring a spear or polearm who have no prior martial arts experience. Rotational movement KILLS against spears. They will be forced to adjust to your directional shifts which gives massive openings to close the gap and grab it past the tip. So a spear doesn't equal a guaranteed win. They can be bypassed. There's videos of it happening even in competition. With full plate armor, it is absolutely possible. All you need is to deflect a single thrust. Once you lunge past the speartip, you are clear of danger and are outright advantaged with a smaller weapon. This is why the Japanese created Iajitsu, the drawing slash. It's why their sheathes were upside down. Because that stuff happened all the time, and the drawing slash was created specifically to immediately drop the spear and get rid of the close quarters threat that had just bypassed your spear. And Jigoro Kano then created Judo to counter the drawing slash by using the momentum of those slashes into tossing the opponent. It was pure combat evolution, and the spear was only the peak (lol) of the chain. It's where it began, not where it ended. And since Oberyn is no Samurai with a few years of Judo, and has no katana, wakizashi and tanto at the ready, he'd be in hot water when his spear gets bypassed. I'd bet on Jaime despite the weapons favoring Oberyn. Why? Because all else is not equal. Jaime is bigger, better overall, more experienced against spears than Oberyn is against longswords, and has full plate armor. Anything short of a massive hit to an unarmored part of Jaime's body would do quite literally nothing for Oberyn. And any hit that fails would be countered immediately, especially since Jaime has a reach/height advantage and is actually extremely fast and agile, unlike The Mountain. Remember those four times Oberyn got his spear stuck on The Mountain's plate armor? In one of those cases, he got knocked down. In another, he spear got cut in half. He'd be dead if that happened against Jaime, and it happened four times before he managed to land a hit of his own. So even poison isn't a free win. Historically, most duels (even unarmored ones) were won with the victor left unharmed. Also, Jaime is almost as good with spears, lances, maces and axes as he is with a sword. Barristan said it in the books, and Jaime said it himself to Cercei in the show too. Who said Jaime HAD to pick a sword? Why not both a spear and a sword? My verdict: In unarmored combat, Oberyn has the better chance since he can nick Jaime and poison him, after which all he has to do is play for time. But in combat where each gets to choose their own setup (yes, even poison included), Jaime wins handily. Reasoning? Because I do not think Oberyn will get a chance to even scratch Jaime. Jaime will rush him. He will defend his armpits and neck and force a sloppy offense out of Oberyn because a spearman has to immediately try and create distance when pressed, and Jaime is literally a top 3 greatest duelist out of any of Martin's characters meaning he will assuredly counter that attempt at creating distance since he knows that is exactly what Oberyn will have to do considering he has been training with and against spearmen and lance wielders since he was 5 years old. Once it gets to longsword range or a grappling exchange, Oberyn is dead meat already. No armor, no shield, and his agility was only barely enough to rely on against The Mountain meaning it won't be halfway good enough to evade Jaime. I think this is a hard fight, but one that ends in under ten seconds realistically. Worst case scenario, Jaime does get nicked and succumbs to venom after slicing Oberyn into mincemeat. But Oberyn gets diced. Spears counter swords somewhat, but plate armor countered everything hard. It changed the game a lot more than spears did. Just my reasoning. Always love your videos and would love to see some more of these hypotheticals with The Hound. Maybe a healthy Hound that isn't starving and slowed by infection against Brienne with equal gear? I always thought The Hound would win under equal circumstances, at least in the show he would. Not sure about the books.

[@shifterverse]

Dam dude I think I thought I'd replied to this comment but I think I've replied to one of your replies to someone else 😂😂😂 any way pal, honestly amazing reasoning and insights. Along with a few other comments its made me and Thom consider defining things like "with prep" "without prep" "armour/unarmoured" "weapon parity/chosen arms" to make it a bit more interesting. Your arguments have also made me want to adjust and reevaluate our conclusion in a lot of ways (though I still think there's the case for Oberyn 😂) I've disputed a couple of things regarding the authors word and things in that reply to your reply if you can find it 😂 purely my opinion though! Thanks for watching man and taking the time to type out these essays we honestly enjoy reading them and hearing the arguments. When people come in and say "I respectfully disagree, but here's why and I'm also going to do it without belittling or insulting you" it honestly makes my day! Thanks for watching dude! Liam

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Spear worship is just the natrual state after people learned that most people used spears in war, ignoring the major benefits of the weapon on the battlefield pretending formations of men wearing light armor is the same as plate because they can't be bothered to think

[@goreaalex3413]

8:15 forgot abou the war of the 5 kings. Jaime comanded a lanister army and fought some minor skirmishes before his capture

[@shifterverse]

Your absolutely right! I only picked up on it after Thom had finished the video, my bad on that one! He decimated a frey force if I remember correctly. I don't think it changes anything regarding the experience difference but a firm reminder for me to triple check my scripts 😂 thanks for watching! Liam

[@drtao8325]

could you please do: The Hound vs Jamie Lannister. Also consider doing Duos? Like the Hound + Mountain V.S Jamie + Oberyn? Or like Barristan + Jamie V.S Ser Criston + Arthur Dayne

[@shifterverse]

We're looking into the hound in a future vid! We're making a list if suggestions so we'll add these to the list! Our next is "whose worse? Ramsey Bolton vs Gregor Clegaine" for whose the most twisted villain. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@alejandronunez5110]

Oberyn is my pick,even if he died(which i doubt if he actually gets his head in the game)the poison would finish his dirty job.

[@shifterverse]

That was factored into our thinking Alejandro! If Oberyn nicks Jaimes skin once, there is nothing Jaime can do to escape death. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@alejandronunez5110]

@@shifterverse you're welcome man,your vids are top of the line and the wait for them its more than Worth it.

[@shifterverse]

@@alejandronunez5110 thanks so much! Our first go at ramping up momentum this month so hopefully have another vid for you soon! Liam

[@idunbeezasmart1]

Actually, if they both die, it probably proves Jaime to be the better warrior. For both to die, Oberyn either has to die first or succumb to injuries suffered from Jamie's blade, while Jamie will die from poisoning, either directly or from being in a weakened enough state for Oberyn to get a killing blow. In either case, for both to die, the result is the same, Jamie outright kills Oberyn, but poison kills Jamie, not Oberyn.

[@tylerwill5688]

Spears are said to be the most powerful medieval weapon and therefor Oberyn wins

[@shifterverse]

They were the primary weapon and the sword a side arm for a reason! Thanks for stopping by Tyler! Liam

[@KingSlayer_.]

You got that wrong. They are the most powerful for infantry and armies battle-wise. Not for 1v1 to the death cenarios. I think if Oberyn were to use his spear and Jamie got close enough, he'd be able to get a few good hits in, and the fight would be over. Don't get me wrong, though, Oberyn would certainly have a shot. The big thing is if it was a trial by battle, Tywin would certainly not let Oberyn poison his spear. He's more cunning than Oberyn is, and he knows the kinds of tactics he'd use.

[@AstroSully]

Not it’s the most risky one weapon. It breaks incredibly easily.

[@asongforthemostbeautifulwo6476]

Funny cause that’s pretty much the opposite of what Tyrion thinks in the books. He questions Oberyn about the use of a spear against a foe wearing plate armor and the narration rumbles on why the spear is a poor choice on a 1v1

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Spears are dogshit dualing weapons, and even worse against plate, it's legitimately a pothole that the viper could peirce any part Gregor's armor with a spear

[@IshtheStomach]

Great take. One more touch of nuance which favors Oberyn... considering his choice of poison. When he faced Gregor Clegane, he specifically used a slow acting version of the manticore venom because he wanted him to suffer and to live long enough to confess. So, loadout specific. If he just wants to kill Jamie and has no ulterior motives, I have no doubt he would choose a much faster acting poison.

[@simonmoody8400]

I think it would be interesting to see/speculate on what Oberyn's loadout and tactics would be against Bron. While the Viper would, in the end, have the upper hand, I think his usual advantage in picking the best counter to an enemy would be weaker than usual against the very standard loadout, but unconvetional tactics Bron brings. Bron does also gain some advantages over Jamie as an opponent, in experience and cool headedness specially (though loses ground in age and top quality equipment possibly).

[@paragon1172000]

I mean was there really an argument here. Oberyn beats most in a one on one. He's not the best but there is only a handful on Planetos that can beat him.

[@shifterverse]

True Paragon, but Jaime is no slouch either, he can beat Hermione Granger, Aragon and a cult of Cthulu according to GRRM. Thanks for tuning in! Liam

[@paragon1172000]

@@shifterverse I do not agree with Aragorn. GRRM is dead wrong on that one. He's over 80 years old and fights beings well beyond normal human limits in a world full of men who do similar. He regular keeps up with elves who in the first age were even able to fight Valar who are themselves demigods. Jaimie is not that skilled or strong enough.

[@shifterverse]

@@paragon1172000 I completely agree, it's why we didn't take GRRMs word TOO seriously regarding this. He's of the opinion like most people with a braincell that the one who wins the fight in fiction is the one who the writer chooses to win. It's doesn't stop it been any less fun for people like us to speculate and argue about though, but ultimately anyone can beat anyone in a fictional setting if the writer sets it up correctly. But if your taking things fairly and considering all factors, it's incredibly difficult to make the argument for Jaime vs Aragon if your going by what we've seen and know of them both, and it makes me trust his opinion about Jaime a little bit less 😂

[@duncankelcey9281]

As the old sayings go: " youth and exuberance is no match for old age and treachery" and "fear the old man in a profession where most die young"

[@TyNguyen-t6y]

knicking him with the poison laced spear already gives Oberyn a win because Jaime dies eventually and faster as he expels more energy during the fight and the poison pumps through his body. Also, spears on record are more practical weapons as far as distancing, leverage and handling, ease, and versatility.

[@BertrumArthur]

Oberyn is more like Batman. And he wins because… He’s Batman!

[@shifterverse]

Brilliant! 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam

[@Rahim.ali80]

You missed when Jamie killed Jory Cassell with a sick counter move with a knife to the eye while holding a sword I believe with his left hand could be mistaken nonetheless still was an incredible counter that should have been included in the adaptability round

[@gabrielecalabrese2906]

the scene was in the video, more than once I think so it was considered and it's not really adaptability, short blades were a relatively common choice as siderarm in duels with swords.

[@GodKillerKRAT0S]

Two really skilled, agile fighters. Manticore venom is no joke, a single scratch can be fatal

[@shifterverse]

I wish most would have this veiw Katos. Both are top tier in their own right, and if it came to swords Jaime would mince Oberyn, but Westeros and fairness aren't often put together, no way Oberyn let's it come to swords 😂 thanks for watching! Liam

[@ContactsNfilters]

What out for zombie Jaime 🧟‍♂️

[@JubbyBoi]

Amazing video ❤❤❤❤ keep em coming!

[@shifterverse]

Thanks Jubby! We intend to! Liam (The narrator)

[@wallywest9257]

Considering GRRM named Jamie (two handed) as one of the people he'd choose to be his champion, out of all the people in the seven realms, says a lot. This video is extremely biased towards Oberyn, and I think Jamie would actually destroy him 9/10. Jamie is considered in the 'golden three' when it comes to skill (with Dayne & Barristan) so if you're saying Oberyn beats Jamie you're basically saying he beats Dayne & Barristan also and is the greatest fighter in all the realms, which is rubbish. Oberyn literally had to plan his revenge against the Mountain for years, dedicate his fighting style to take him down, cheat with poison, and he still lost. And when it comes to experience Jamie has FAR more, in fact Oberyn has very little feats, despite what your videos says, he had a 1v1 when he was young and won by poisoning his opponent, and it's said he's travelled with the 'second sons' but it doesn't mention any fighting and is unknown if he actually did fight. Not much is actually known about him. Jamie fought the Kingswood Brotherhood when he was 15 including a 1v1 against the Smiling Knight (basically the Mountain of his day) He killed men in Roberts Rebellion when defending the King, he fought in The Greyjoy Rebellion, he fought in the battle of Whispering Wood, and he's won countless tournaments. So when it comes to experience Jamie has him easily beat for actual feats. Jamie is more skilful than Oberyn, he's more experienced, he's more of a specialist when it comes to fighting, and he's probably just as quick. Oberyn is a hard counter against the Mountain because he's so slow, but he wont be able to dance around Jamie like that. And again, if you really think Oberyn beast Jamie then by that logic he also beats Dayne & Barristan. He'd be the greatest fighter who ever lived apparently, killed by the Mountain. Your logic.

[@clarencegutsy7309]

Exactly this. Jaime would pretty much do to him what he did to Jory and knife him in the eye once he got close.

[@LordBloodraven]

I would have also considered what their pre-game preparations would be like. Oberyn and Jaime aren't reckless and will likely spend day before a duel making sure they're well fed, hydrated and rested. However, if Oberyn knew a duel was coming and wasn't trying to extract a confession like he was with the Mountain, it wouldn't be out of the range of possibility that he would have Jaime's food and water poisoned to ensure his opponent was partially infirmed during the duel.

[@shifterverse]

I wish we'd mentioned that in our vid now, I'm not sure if Oberyn would dishonour Jaime the same way he did the Mountain woth something like that, but the fact he employs poison alone makes me think he's capable of it! Alot of people have took issue with us allowing the fighters to have prep, nice to see someone come along and say "you didn't address prep enough!" Thanks for watching Bloodraven

[@professorsassafras]

There are real times when tyrion seems almost friendly with the starks and he seems to hold a grudge against his father and sister. I wonder, could tyrion be persuaded to join team stark?

[@marks.9448]

jaime might be the best "inferior side arm you use if your polearm is broken" fighter in westeros but oberyn is using a spear which is a way superior weapon

[@mazisigmond7508]

A Spear definitely has an advantage over a Sword.

[@christianberrios8944]

I’m glad I’ve found this video. I’m an avid defender of Oberyn and how he made quick work of the mountain. I think he’s just much more of a warrior than Jaime and has proven himself far more whereas Jaime is just legendary through stories. Jaime hasn’t actually done much. I do think Jaime is the best and most skilled swordsman behind Dayne but that’ll only get him so far. Oberyn is an actual warrior with real experience and knows far more about killing and not being killed.

[@EumenesOCardia]

That "meta" backronym is wild. "Meta-" is an English prefix from Greek meaning "beyond". The "metagame" is "the game beyond the game", it's all of the outside factors that influence the game. A technique or strategy is "meta" if it aligns with the zeitgeist surrounding the game. It's basically a popularity contest. "Meta" absolutely does not stand for "most effective technique available", it's just short for metagame.

[@Dav624]

People tend to forget and often ignore the fact that a sword is a pretty bad weapon to use it is no wonder why medieval battles were not fought with swords but spears,axes,maces and combinations of three of them in one like halberds with a spear tip axehead and mace hammer on the sides that was the best most effective weapon for combat on melee not only was the sword nowhere near the best medieval weaponry but it was highly difficult to maintain not break on battle and to stab through armour is impossible with a long sword or one that jaime carries and uses mostly the reason being because the sword is a thin long version of a dagger making it very fragile and swords can chip and dent by just hitting bone let alone armour the show tends to forget this and make swords look like the main weapon of war at the time but the truth is incredibly different the halberd spears and maces were not only easier to mass produce but they were much easier to maintain and lasted much longer than a sword as well a spear could be sharpened over and over and still be as good as new but a sword can only be sharpened very little before becoming too brittle to use for anything a axe is too bulky and can cut regardless of its sharpness due to the huge weight behind it and the mace needs the least amount of maintenance because its essential just blunt trauma weapon with no Sharpened edges although some has spikes and points to make it more deadly but generally a hammer could be called a mace and u could damage and crack ribs through armour with a hammer u could stab through armour with a steel tipped spear u could also cut through armour with an axe all these three weaponry were easier to mass produce than the sword much more useful and longer lasting than the sword and overall more effective for combat and could be modified to have more reach than the sword u could modify a axehead to have a huge spearshaft as a handle and now u have already outperformed the sword by having more reach due to the long stick u attached to it the same u can do with steel spear bodkin tip (most durable design for spears out of metal and best armour piercer) u could remove the tip off of a spearshaft that has broke and attach a new long stick to it temporarily or long term for use and that makes it much more recyclable than the sword wich is essentially not recyclable and only gets shittier with use with that said the sword is lighter than a maxe or an axe offering more speed and agility but u can get the same agility with a spear and in the show they make spears look weak being broken from the sword but in reality u would need to have the strength of the mountain to cut through a spearshaft most wooden shafts can be reinforced with ropes or oils and wax to make them much tougher and longer lasting and no sword would be able to chop through it some polearms had even steel plating around the wooden shaft protecting the shaft from cutting weapons like swords daggers axes from breaking the shaft and an axe can withstand a hit into steel plates but a sword cant if you hit a sword into a steel plate u will either chip or dent the edge wich would make ur sword useless to use for future slashing and stabbing

[@XHammer-fs5pf]

Daemon Targaryen Vs Bronn would be interesting. Both are highly skilled swordsmen and combat pragmatists that like to taunt opponents. They both have decades of live combat experience and are among the most seasoned fighters in the cast . Otherwise they Daemon is taller, stronger and has more armor ( even at his barest armored he still wears a breastplate) and has a valaryian steel sword. Bronn is faster, more agile, carries a dagger with him at all times to have a backup weapon if his sword or other weapon breaks or to dual wield and wears little armor. Bronn displays a wider weapon proficiency with sword,knife,spear, Lance,archery and even his barehands. Daemon mainly fights with a sword but is also capable with the Lance and dagger. ( I’m counting books and shows together) I think it would be a fun match.

[@shifterverse]

We'll add it to the list for future vids Xhammer (assuming this series takes off that is) Thanks for watching! Liam

[@michaelmaddox2536]

Brown would take it.

[@Ilyas-ty6cy]

Bronn would not risked it. He a survivalist, not an adrenaline junkie person. Because Bronn love himself more than his honor.

[@ronaldmccomb8301]

Oberon dying in both mediums was as much a gut punch as Ned and Robb’s deaths.

[@zaimhassan6490]

that's exactly what I'm saying. I would never have expected a character of his caliber would be killed off like that and so soon.

[@spiritofarkham1235]

Oberyn has the reach advantage of a spear. and a sword is unlikely to cut through the shaft.

[@simonbelmont65]

They should have never killed Oberyn off. Qyburn could have still brought the mountain back, but how awesome would it have been to see Oberyn fighting white walkers.

[@TheFandomeClips]

How sad would it have been to see his character ruined by D&D…

[@simonbelmont65]

⁠@@TheFandomeClipswell D&D did ruin, Jaime Lannister, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, Daenerys Targaryen and more in season 8. Oberyn was killed off very stupidly, he just should have won against the mountain.

[@Carvetorix]

Personally, I’m a big Oberyn fan. But when it comes down to a duel I have to give it to Jamie, he’s going to be able to close the distance on a spear and if Oberyn had a sword then he’s outclassed.

[@Vikt0rian]

Assuming that Oberyn doesn't tailor his weapon, skill set and armour accordingly. What would his weapon of choice be against Jaime? I do not know, I am not a master fighter that brought the mountain low because she outsmarted him. But I would definitely not put it past him to use actual armour against Jaime to make that gap closing significantly less of a threat versus an opponent he can't abuse the same way as he could the mountain.

[@aneisleeper5515]

Two short swords style would do it, I think. Closer to the opponent

[@WarTheory]

Oberyn all day… The spear is the game changer …. Not even counting the poison he’ll definitely put on all his blades he just has to Nick Jamie to kill him

[@shifterverse]

Thats the issue Jaime has, getting out of the fight untouched is going to be nearly impossible for him so the result is ethier Oberyn wins or double death. Very few instances where Jaime takes the W without dying afterwards 😂 thanks for watching war theroy! Liam

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

I don't think Oberyn would use spear against Jaime. Spear has advantage against sword in a duel, but plate armor would allow Jaime to close the gap and turn the tables. I think Oberyn would go for a pollaxe. It would also give him reach advantage over Jaime, but would allow him to maim his opponent without needing to hit the small gaps in the armor.

[@melvinmbuthia883]

Please do a Jamie vs Robbert Baratheon next

[@alanrickett2537]

Both at their peak Jamie's is dead in the first minute. Drunk robert will lose, but may kill Jamie as well if lucky

[@andrew-hf9fl]

If memory serves, George has gone on record saying Jamie is the most dangerous warrior in westeros. Barristan selmy calls him the best natural swordsman he'd ever seen. Oberyn is a super dangerous man, beyond a doubt, but his advantage was much greater against the mountain than it would be against Jamie. The mountain is big and slow, whereas Jamie is super fast. Even Brienne, when she fights him after being in a prison cell, and has his hands chained together, thinks 'no man in westeros could stand against him at his full strength'. It'd still be a legendary fight, but I'd put odds on Jamie personally, but barely

[@maxb8749]

idk man I highly disagree with this, just because of how much GRRM himself hypes up Jaime. He wrote a bunch of death battles with Jaime and other fictional characters and he picked Jaime when he was asked who he would choose if he was under trial by combat. An in universe reason why I think Jaime would win is because after 8 months of imprisonment AND having his hands shackled, he was still able to go toe to toe with Brienne. To put this in perspective Jaime is at best at 50% strength here and he is fighting Brienne of Tarth on equal footing. Brienne of Tarth is a giant of a woman who won a melee of 116 knights and she is struggling against a frail, fatigued shackled man who is smaller than her. I just feel like guys like Jaime, Barristan and Arthur Dayne are miles above all the other top tier fighters.

[@shifterverse]

More than fine with us pal! Wouldn't be fun if it was a one-sided debate and you've politely explained your reasons why well Max. The issue we have with GRRMs word is that he also said Jaime would beat Aragon in a fight, which when you look at what both characters are capable of is an extremely controversial stance to take. Its a prime human vs a man bordering on superhuman with 60+ years of experience over his opponent while still maintaining youthful vigor. For us that takes some of the infallibility out of his opinions 😂 and hints that he may be a touch biased and protective of his favoured characters. If its a fight on even ground (both using the same weapon) and its swords, we fully acknowledge that Jaime would beat Oberyn dam near every time. We did have a small segment talking about that in the vid, but Thom (channels owner, editor and producer)cut it for pacing reasons. Problem is for us to argue for Jaime is if Oberyn knows who he's fighting he'll go out of his way to make sure the sword is unfavourable vs his weapon choice. Skill can only compensate an equipment and reach disadvantage so much, especially if the guy with those advantages is also extremely skilled. Oberyn is also in that top tier. This is a guy whose fought for multiple years in all manner of settings and lived to tell the tale. He's also something of a prodigy and shouldn't be underestimated. This was the pilot episode and after reading through the comments we've decided in future warrior match ups we'll cover "with prep" "in cold" "equipment equality" and "fighters pick their weapons" situations so characters get their fair due! As its obvious Jaime can take it in some of those categories. Thanks for watching Max! Liam

[@maxb8749]

@@shifterverse I'm not too familiar with LOTR so please correct me if this is a crazy statement but I think it is possible Jaime can beat Aragorn. Some people are just naturally gifted. Deontay Wilder with like 18 months of boxing training won a bronze medal in the Olympics. The guys he beat had no exaggeration over 100x experience more than him but that didn't matter because he's just naturally gifted like that, he's a prodigy. Just learned that George Foreman won Olympic gold with 10 months of training, holy shit... I do agree that the GRRM reasoning was wonky so thats why I wanted to back it up with what Brienne said cuz shes an in universe character but also a extremely reliable source.

[@nathantaylor4812]

I think this ends one of two way's, Oberyn is such a skilled warrior I think he would be able to cut Jamie and the blade poisoning him so even if Jamie does kill Oberyn jamie also loses anyway. Other one is Oberyn killing jamie without dying just my opinion.

[@shifterverse]

We agree Nathan. Oberyn can afford to take a light wound and still have a shot at pulling through. Jaime can't afford to get caught even ONCE. There's only two common outcomes, Jaime might pull it off one time in a hundred and get through untouched, but most of the time, either Oberyn wins or they both die 😂 The skill gap isn't big enough in our opinion for Jaime to dance around the viper without sustaining at least one wound. Their both top tier though, we have every respect for Jaime and think he's the man, if things were totally level and FAIR and he got to pick the weapon choice (swords) we think he'd trash the viper. But this is Westeros and when we look at the rules of their judicial duels, its clearly anything but fair and Oberyn would make sure of that 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam

[@cadefoster6626]

100% agree, the person who is better prepared out of more or less equal opponents will usually win.

[@georgeprchal3924]

Oberyn: Ha! You've fallen for one of the classic blunders: the first being, never get involved in a land war in Essos; the second being, never go up against a Dornishman when death is on the line! Jaime: Fortunately I've spent several years building up an immunity to iocaine powder. Oberyn: Well shit!

[@shifterverse]

😂 Oberyn vs Westley that would be such a great battle of witty banter, let alone the fighting itself! Thanks for watching that comment made me chuckle! Liam

[@ishan8491]

The biggest problem with this is GRRM already said Jaime is the best at the time. When asked about who would be his champion if he was faced in a life or death situation, GRRM chose Jaime, meaning in a 1v1 fight, Jaime beats Oberyn, as Oberyn was also a pick.

[@shifterverse]

GRRM also said Jaime could defeat Aragon from LOTR in a duel, despite extremely overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The word of God is very valuable, but its not infallible or beyond scrutiny. Spear/Polearm vs a longsword is an unbelievably unfavourable match up for the guy with the sword. A quick google of some HEMA bouts with that set up would set GRRM straight and maybe convince him that his fictional trial by combats should be historically accurate and have equipment equality 😂 thanks for tuning in Ishan! Liam

[@greatestoldone7658]

@@shifterverse The difference is Oberyn and Jaime are both HIS characters. The Aragorn thing comes down to him not properly understanding the source material, but on his own works he is the ultimate authority, and his opinion on Jaime winning that fight isn't inconsistent with anything else he has said or written.

[@shifterverse]

@@greatestoldone7658 I agree wholeheartedly that his words should carry a lot of weight. But I don't think they are beyond scrutiny. GRRM is clearly a very well versed history buff, but from what we read he doesn't seem to have the strongest understanding of historical combat. Hence why in his trials by combat the fighters are picking their load outs when in reality equipment equality (and sometimes training and experience) was often a set rule. Spear vs longsword is very unfavourable for the swordfighter, like extremely unfavourable to the point a half decent spearman can keep a sword master at bay I've watched it in person at a HEMA club, they did around 30 rounds for fun and the swordmaster only got through 2-3 times. The point of a spear can strike the head, then the feet blindingly fast with minimal movement, much much faster than a sword can. The constant pokes, jabs and distance between thrusts often fluster and frustrate the swordsman who isn't even in range to threaten his opponent back. We live and we learn though, in future vids, me and Thom will look into "with and without prep" and "with chosen equipment and equal equipment" to make it a bit more fair (though westeros isn't a fair place 😂)

[@alaaaxpruski6559]

"Who ever the writers want to win"

[@shifterverse]

So dam true alaaax! Doesn't make it any less fun to talk about though 😂 thanks for stopping by! Liam

[@stubannati]

We need a series just about Oberyn and his life. His time in the show and books was way too short

[@jasonjordan8376]

Better skilled, stronger, still in his prime, I’d bet on Jamie. Oberyn’s big advantage in fighting the Mountain was his speed and agility. That’s not going to be the case with Jamie. And he might not even chose the spear for that reason. And spear doesn’t beat sword every time. As we all saw, Oberyns spears got broken. I think the circumstances of the fight would matter as well. Is it a duel like it was with the Mountain, where Oberyn is prepared? Is it a random encounter? Does Jamie have sword and shield on him? This fight is basically a Jack-of-all-trades vs a master who is one of the greatest of all time. I’d bet on the master who is stringer and in his prime, who is equally fast, if I had to.

[@shifterverse]

Some fair points in there and I completely respect your opinion! However I do have few points of debate A spear doesn't beat a sword every time, but even when you pit a half decent spearman against a master swordsman the spear wins at minimum twice more than the sword, its just far too big a disadvantage in reach. Put a top tier spearman against a master swordsman and the odds are absolutely abysmal for the swordsman. I've seen it with my eyes at my local hema club and if you search matches here on YT you'll see roughly the same. Even untrained spearman can often beat decently trained swordsmen. It is no where near as easy as it looks to sudden charge past the point. Greater strength means nothing if you can't get close enough to wrestle and while its true the mountain broke oberyns spear shaft, the mountain is a freak of nature who hit it with a 6ft greatsword. Its an absolute myth you can cut through the shaft of a spear with a longsword if your a skilled swordsman, Jaime could potentially stamp on it to break the shaft, but against someone as agile as Oberyn he likely won't get that chance (a good spearman can also use situations like that to throw their opponents off balance or in rare cases pull their opponent of their feet if their spear shaft is sturdy enough) . Agility (Which Jaime also has in spades along side Oberyn) is far more important than physical strength when you've both got melee weapons Regarding Jaime been in his physical prime that is true and we did give him the edge for that, but Oberyn is only just outside his prime, there isn't a big difference, Jaimes edge there is slight at best. Their BOTH incredibly fast and agile and while Jaime has more skill, Oberyn is still up in his league. Oberyn didn't really beat the Mountain because he was faster. He beat the mountain because he structured his tool kit and game plan to counter all of the mountains advantages. The main killer was Oberyns reach advantage, he could poke the Mountain without the mountain been able to retaliate at the same distance, forcing the mountain to move around more to try and close the gap and their armour choices meant Greg would tire out far quicker. The plan was let the Mountain tire himself out then get him when he's exhausted. The show makes the fight look quite flashy, but in the book its a far more catious affair with Oberyn keeping healthy distance for most of it. Our goal with this vid wasn't to crap on Jaime, he's legendary. Our point was that to beat him you need someone in the same league of legendary whose also going to stack the deck against our favourite kingslayer. Make it a contest of swords or even weapon parity in General, we wouldn't be half as favourable to Oberyn. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts dude! Liam

[@gabrielecalabrese2906]

spear does beat sword the vast majority of the time, in real life at least, cutting one is not really possible unless it's staged.

[@Force-Multiplier]

Oberyn is overhyped because his only real showing was a fight for wich he prepared for throughout most of his life for Oberyn killing the mountain was his lifelong goal wich wich he prepared for over a decade for The Mountain Who Rides Oberyn was just another little lord he thought he would just squash no diff (for wich he paid for) meanwhile a teenager Jaime didn't got straight up killed and did so impressively well against The Smiling Knight (someone referred to as "The Mountain of his Time") that he impressed both Arthur Dayne (who's best known feat was defeating said Smiling Knight) and Barristan Selmy who are the renowned best of the best alongside Jaime of the recent ASOIAF era so if a *teenager* Jaime was able to do decent *in the first fight of his life* against a Mountain sized fighter without prep time like Oberyn a seasoned and actually trained Jaime would have owned The Mountain *without needing to prepare to kill that spesificic person for a decade like you know who* this isn't even a question Jaime would definitely own Oberyn

[@shifterverse]

There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence whatsoever that Oberyn had been planning that fight for a decade. He likely didn't even plan to fight the Mountain at all at first, likely just poison him (as its strongly hinted he did with Tywin) Oberyn wanted revenge, and for the Mountain to suffer as much as possible, a fight is a far too quick and easy way out for Gregor, hence why Oberyn purposefully dragged it out and toyed with the Mountain for as long as he could and why he'd altered the Venom he'd coated his spear with to slow its effects and stall death out as long as possible. Oberyn didn't want to fight Gregor he clearly wanted to torture him, but had to make do with the situation presented to him. The trial was merely a convenient means of getting access to Gregor (who was most definitely purposefully been kept away from the capital) and the chance of publicly humiliating and disgracing of Tywin was the added cherry on top Think about this logically. Oberyn turns up in kings landing. He's then relying on the king getting poisoned at the wedding, Tyrion been blamed, Tyrion actually been found guilty in his Trial, Tyrion then demanding trial combat, Cersei picking Gregor as her champion, then no one standing for Tyrion (even though his brother is known to be one of the best swordsmen around and his handicap isn't widely known yet) so he could step in. You really think he had all that planned out? Nah Oberyn seized an opportunity by taking the fight. The fight itself wasn't some decades planned out thing. It doesn't fit in line with his objectives (Gregor and Tywin suffering for as long as possible) I'd advise watching some spear vs sword videos. It is unreal how big an advantage the spear has over the sword. So much so inexperienced spearmen can hold off and beat highly trained swordsmen, let alone putting it in the hands of someone whose legitimately skilled with it. Jaime is more skilled, we even stated so in the video, but Oberyn is in that same league with the reach advantage of his weapon more than compensating for the difference. Plus the biggest factor and that is one nick of Jaimes skin and he's got less than 30 seconds to live. The poison used on Gregor was altered, Manticore venom normally kills instantaneously.

[@Force-Multiplier]

hahahahaha nice cope it was his life's goal and he said so himself bUt tHeRe wAs nO eViDeNce heck he specialized in a long ranged weapon wich was perfect for the types of fighter the mountain is what else do people want a map? edit and the last point is even worse by that metric anyone would get killed by a spear user wich isn't the case we're talking the best in current Westeros not a regular fighter or a sword/spear playing aficionado with the title of master wich is all you will get nowadays in those videos in ancient times a title wasn't worth a damm all that mattered was victory

[@shellyhoward7777]

I agree with you 100%!!!! Jaime can really only use one weapon however if their isn’t one available he’s screwed!! Oberyn is cerebral and that is what makes a great warrior!

[@shifterverse]

Thanks Shelly! Skill is great but skill combined with intelligence is greater! Thanks for tuning in! Liam

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

This is so untrue. Barristan in the books and Jaime in the show both said that Jaime is about as good with maces, lances and spears as he is with a sword. He has been trained equally with each. He favors the sword, that's all. But he can use anything. The main reason he's known for the sword is because Kingsguard do not get outfitted with a polearm. The sword is a royal/burgher weapon. It's easy to carry. You still have your hands free. It's also less intimidating since a polearm makes you look like you're actively at war, which is unnerving to the general populace. A sword just chills in its sheath and can outright add to your appearance.

[@shellyhoward7777]

@@TheStraightestWhitest my point which you seemed to have missed is that Oberyn is a cerebral warrior he finds your weakness and capitalizes on it. Jaime’s vanity is his biggest weakness and Oberyn would have used that against him. I’m sure that Jaime was equally as good with all the weapons and I know Tywin has one of the best master of arms in Casterly Rock that gold could buy. However Oberyn’s greatest weapon is his mind and Jaime is known as the stupidest Lannister.

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

@@shellyhoward7777 IQ and fight IQ are different things. Jaime isn't stupid or vain in battle.

[@shellyhoward7777]

@@TheStraightestWhitest I was speaking of fight IQ. I know that with both hands Jaime is considered one of the greatest swordsmen alive. However Oberyn is the deadliest warriors alive and he proved it fighting the mountain if it weren’t for his need to get a confession out of him he would still be alive. I don’t think Jaime would have beaten the mountain .

[@greatestoldone7658]

I was impressed early on in the video with how even handed you were being, though some of the categories seemed arbitrary for this matchup. The conclusion though was disappointing, as I don't think your reasoning for Oberyn being the "anti-meta" was very compelling. You also mentioned word of god, and I'm pretty sure if you take into account what GRRM has said about Jaime across various interviews then the result should have been clear, I don't really think there is any contradictions from him on that front either.

[@shifterverse]

The problem we have with GRRMs word is that he really doesn't care for "who would wins" which is totally fine, each to their own and I agree with him getting too obsessed with them beyond a bit of fun can ruin a story. Hes on record as saying Jaime Lannister would beat Aragon from LOTR which even a surface glance at the characters capabilities would tell you is an extremely controversial stance to take. One is a peak human male, the other is bordering on superhuman with a good 60 odd years of experience on his opponent while still retaining the physicality of a much younger person. Statements like that throw into question how much stock should be taken in his words as serious statements and what should be taken as him just answering his favourite characters for fun. The truth is the winner is whoever the writer wants to win in that moment. Jaime lost to to Brienne because of circumstances, Gregor lost to Oberyn because of circumstances. Oberyn was splatted because of the circumstances. When skilled fighters clash its often a matter of luck and whose got the equipment/skillset advantage. We're just of the opinion that Oberyn will always set himself up in a way that gives him those advantages, whereas Jaime will rely on what he's best at and nothing else. Bit like pitting the worlds best boxer against one of the worlds great UFC fighters. If the boxer keeps the fight an upper body striking match yeah hes going to destroy his opponent, but there's just no way in hell that the UFC fighter isn't going to throw kicks and take the fight to the ground as soon as he can. Thats why we think Oberyn will win. The video is not intended to disrespect Jaime, we outright said he's the best at what he does, problem is he's facing someone in this match up who's going to look at that and say "neat, now how do I fuck up his game plan?" Thanks for sharing your thoughts great stone one, I enjoy responding to well made arguments! Makes a change from "Jaime wins, no argument needed" 😂 Liam

[@elagrion]

Just rewatched Oberyn vs Mountain fight scene. Jamie was really impressed by Oberyn. He had this awe look "whaaat? who is this guy".

[@wumbojet]

For those who know, Jamie is like Sasaki Kojiro, while Oberyn is like Miyamoto Musashi. Musashi wins every time.

[@nemotone9297]

Oberyn is the best one vs one in that show. He should have never be killed.

[@jermdogg1185]

This would actually be a great fight...

[@KikoTheLumberjack]

"Longsword is a bad option in close quarters." And it's far from the best option as a whole, all polearms have tremendous advantage over swords, in reach, but more importantly in handling and leverage due to the wider grip, an average polearm wielder in a good suit of armour is a serious threat to even the best swordsman.

[@ashleyrodd8729]

Although the Sandsnake Oberon trained to be a warrior uses a spear and the Dornish army is generally referred to in the number of spears they can bring to a fight so it DOES seem to be a Dornish preferred weapon...

[@eaglewinnings8003]

For all intents and purposes Oberyn beat The Mounrtain in one on one combat. Ironically, his drive for revenge likely cost the Dornishman the win (his life and his lover having PTSD for the 10:07 rest of her limited days). Had Oberyn used a different poison that would’ve been faster acting, something like cyanide of that day which immediately incapacitates a man to that point of foaming at the mouth and death in seconds. Oberyn wanted to use a poison that would keep him alive long enough to confess while still suffering to the fullest. But I don’t think he took into account The Mountain’s size but also his resilience. There’s stories about vets and forest rangers tranquillizing lions of the same size with the same anesthesia and one is knocked out immediately for an hour while the other is completely fine. Anyways I think Oberyn figured expected the Mountain to be much less coherent and alert than he was and it cost him literally everything.

[@x.kasiouris5503]

Jamie almost cut down Rob in the battle of whispering wood, he literally cut down a bunch of nobles and others of robs bodyguards outnumbered in the middle of a losing battle

[@warlordofbritannia]

Better warrior? Oberyn But who would win in a fight between the two? Jaime I’m thinking Oberyn’s wide range of abilities, combat and not, makes him a more impressive combatant. Jaime, especially before he lost his fightin’ hand, is a one-trick pony (albeit one of the best one-trick ponies in Westerosi history). It’s not much a clear advantage-if you had them fight a thousand times, Jaime would probably win 500 of them, Oberyn 450, and they wind up despawning each other in the other 50 😂

[@shifterverse]

The Warlord is HERE, good to see you my friend! Some pretty good arguments here, our issue is Jaime getting out of the fights he wins untouched. One cut and its double death even if he wins 😂 im glad you see it as a close run 50/50 type of deal. Both fighters are amazing. Thanks for tuning in as always! Liam

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

I think the victor depends on the context. A private duel with swords)(that is, self defense sidearms) like Jaime had against Ned? Jaime is superior swordsman and wins. Judicial duel like Oberyn had against Mountain? Oberyn wins, because he can choose equipment that seriously hinders Jaime's weapon of choice. Swords can't cut through plate armor, and Oberyn can get himself a pollaxe to gain reach advantage and ability to wound his opponent even if they wear plate. Let's say Jaime is 40% better fighter. That difference in gear would make bigger difference than that.

[@warlordofbritannia]

@@shifterverse Would Oberyn use poisoned spears in this situation, however? I got the impression that he saves that for particularly personal enemies-Jaime, though he be the Kingslayer, had naught to do with Ellaria Martel’s gRape, murder, or killing of her children

[@warlordofbritannia]

@@PiiskaJesusFreak Jaime’s experience against spearmen narrows the gap considerably, which is what turns this hypothetical into an almost 50/50 situation…let’s say Oberyn with spears has a ten percent better chance of winning than Jaime in those combats.

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

@@warlordofbritannia I don't think Oberyn would choose spear against Jaime. But if he did, he would lose. Plate armor and shield pretty much negate the advantages spear has over a sword. Like sure, you've got more reach, but good luck hitting the gaps in the armor before the other guy closes in. He could pull that off against mountain, but it ain't happening if the foe is as quick as he. That's why I think he'd go for a pollaxe against Jaime. Because you can't just tank it even in plate armor like you could tank sword or spear. So Jaime actually has to parry or evade every blow to avoid career ending injury.

[@JPWagnerIshwa]

I think George R.R. Martin himself would have a very different opinion on this, as he himself has said Jamie is one of the top 3 fighters not just of his era but of all time. He is even stronger in the books than he was ever shown in the show. And a spear might have reach but really is NOT all that impressive a weapon as it is very easily deflected and cut. In the show, we saw Euron kill Oberyn's oldest (and most skilled) daughter while he was UNARMED, he basically took her spear from her bitch slapped her with it and stabbed her with the remains he broke over her...now, she was no Oberyn to be sure, but she was his most skilled offspring, and Euron treated her like she was nothing. Jamie killed Euron AFTER he lost his hand...which only suggests how quickly he would have decimated him is he still had his good hand. When you consider the gap there that wide...not sure how people see this going Oberyn's way. And for practicality reasons, whether Jamie is in Kingsguard Armor or Lannister Armor, there are basically no openings for the spear except his head, which of course he will be focused on protecting. We've never seen Oberyn even wear real armor... Yes, Oberyn was a sure-win for the Mountain, but a two-handed Jamie in armor is another story completely.

[@JaxonHaxon]

I think in the show, you're right, but in the books I don't think so. Jaime is a **mythical** level of sword fighter, GRRM says that Jaime would beat Aragorn, like this shit is grounded but Jaime is supposed to be practically a wizard with a sword. Show Jaime gets that talk but not that level of show, but Oberyn gets that mythic status in the show. Even using the other hand Jaime is a beast, like Jaime with the wrong hand vs Oberyn is a close fight. That said, Oberyn still lands a cut and Jaime is poisoned and dies afterwards and becomes Ser Robert Strong after Qyburn heals him in this alt-verse.

[@brigo1744]

I’m convinced many believe Oberyn only knows how to fight with a spear! From what we know of his past, not only is he incredibly intelligent, but also an excellent duelist with a sword! He did not get the name red viper for poisoning spears. His first poisoned duel was with a sword! Not only that, but he also fought with the second sons, in the fighting pits, and even defeated various difficult opponents in 1 v 1 tournaments! His age and travels also rank him as more experienced than Jaime Lannister as well. I think even with a sword, Oberyn defeats Jaime Edit: I mean other commenters not the channel

[@maxb8749]

Oberyn beating Jaime with a sword is the most delusional/misinformed takes I've ever seen. Oberyn beats Jaime with spear and poison. For sure Oberyn beats Jaime with just spear. Probably not but maybe Oberyn beats Jaime with just sword. No chance at all

[@crimson1199]

since when did a regular sword, not a large sword like the claymore, become the meta for medieval combat? Documentaries and weapons experts made it pretty clear polearms are the primary weapons and swords are more like a pistol.

[@Dark_Angel-dc8lz]

Jamie did not almost kill Braine in the books she gives him credit but in the show she didn’t even sweat

[@shifterverse]

Brienne did more than give him credit in the book. She acknowledged that had Jaime not been starved, chained and fatigued noone could have stood against him. Pretty sure in the book it takes pretty much everything Brienne has just to keep him at bay and she's one of the best fighters around. Show fights more in Briennes favour that much is true, but unlike show Oberyn and book Oberyn, show Jaime and Book Jaime may as well be two different characters in some regards. Thanks for watching dark angel! Liam

[@DKMediaStarWars]

​@@shifterverseTrue

[@maxb8749]

"Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight!" What do you mean she didn't even break a sweat?

[@Sora744]

Oberyn would definitely win

[@hazzboi1048]

I just can’t see Jamie losing here. The difference between a very good all round fighter and a once in a generation talent is so small but that difference in a life or death duel is leagues. But I do see Jamie dying soon after from a poisonous cut so basically a draw with obbie going out first

[@jasonhosea9331]

Dont forget oberon had to replace his broken spear if that wasnt an option and if jamies speed caused him to stomp break it before hes cut

[@travismcnasty4239]

If Oberyn thinks it's fair to poison his weapons, I think it's fair for his opponent's weapon to be a crossbow.

[@veljkovasiljevic]

Jamie was a kings guard for over 15 years , was knighted by Arthur Dayne

[@TheFandomeClips]

And did what exactly? 👀😂 Least Selmy had a few names on his resume. Closest Jaime got was hacking down a bunch of people at the Whispering Wood. Issue with Jaime is he has the skills but not the resume IMO 😅 - Thom

[@veljkovasiljevic]

@@TheFandomeClips what names does oberyn have tho?

[@veljkovasiljevic]

@@TheFandomeClips problem with a lot of characters. Arthur,jamie, oberyn, Daemon blackfyre. They have one or two big fights and rest is reputation and factions. Yes they are part of *insert a faction* but what they did and who they fought is unknown. Arthur is considered the greatest with only 2 fights under him. In both there was like a Boss And minions (Eddard and Smiling Knight).

[@greenwave819]

it was really impressive how exteme Jaime's character arc was. being able to take us from hating him for trying to kill a child to rooting for him in later seasons. Still Oberyn is prolly the coolest character of the show and I do agree he would defeat Jaime.

[@koreancowboy42]

Easiest way to win against Jamie is easily how Oberyn has already defeated Gregor Clegane if it wasnt for Qyburn treating the poison. Oberyn literally uses the spear coated in poison and also we all saw how effective he was against the mountain especially when the mountain literally big and strong and fast that he's somewhat able to keep up with Oberyn. Oberyn is freaking damn good aswell, he spent his time in the fighting pits meeting all kinds of killers and fighters. Compared to the tournament jousting and knights that fight with honor, thats very different compared to the fighting pits where PEOPLE KILL EACH OTHER.

[@AkodoGarou]

Love both of these characters, and their stories, sadly Oberyn's smashed short, are just top notch! Would love to have a Oberyn short story of his life before, instead of second-hand oft mentioned.

[@shifterverse]

Us too AkodoGarou. In both the books and the show his time is incredibly short but man, one of the most memorable and interesting characters of the bunch, and it's not like there isn't stiff competition on the well written character front. Thanks for watching! Liam

[@Spirosbotos]

Oberyn showed he was the best fighter easily but he also showed his biggest flaw in that his over confidence fed his anger, you can see the excitement in Jamie’s face when he realizes the legends of the red viper where true, he didn’t just beat the mountain but he embarrassed him

[@dumbage]

they always said in the show that jamie was a legend but to be he didn’t really do any crazy fights, gotta give it to martell

[@maxb8749]

Ever thought about making a top 10 fighters list or maybe a tier list

[@drtao8325]

I think he has one for GOT

[@shifterverse]

Ask and you shall receive Max! I'll put it on the list! We have 3 vids where we delve into top 5s who could and couldn't beat the Mountain if they are of interest? Pretty good for benchmarking characters! In the mean time, Alt shiftx (Basically THE MAN here on YT when it comes to all things thrones) has a pretty cool top 10 list of warriors!

[@maxb8749]

@@shifterverse I watched his list and it was kind of bad ngl. I can go in depth why its really bad but my main 2 gripes were that Oberyn wasn't on the list and that Victarion is on the list. Dagmer literally tells us who is the 3 strongest warriors from the Iron Islands are and Vic isnt on the list. Also Vic isnt sure he can defeat Harras Harlaw so thats 3 guys who for sure should be ahead of Vic and 1 guy who could be ahead.

[@maxb8749]

​@@shifterverse I made a top 3 fighters from each realm list a while back, if u want I can share that and u can just pick the 10 best from those guys if u want.

[@shifterverse]

@@maxb8749 We'll be launching a discord sever soon buddy! come and share them with us there if that's ok! (Also I'm not ignoring your other comments regarding Oberyn vs Jaime, I'll get round to them when i have a chance)

[@jer2689]

The real question is if Jaime could beat Oberyn without getting cut because you know The Viper is bringing in poison

[@brettreiselt5968]

The saying is "you can't eat your cake and have it too."

[@TheFandomeClips]

Not where I'm from its not (Yorkshire) 😂 Liam

[@carlcramer9269]

"Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time."

[@StewH08]

Oberyn all day long.🥰

[@The_Custos]

Oberyn is flashy, burns too much energy needlessly, gets parried and dies, but Jaime dies of poison.

[@beeno3487]

I cant agree with the take that a 35 year old is simply better than a 40 year old. 40 is a magic number for a fighter. It depends on the person of course but I think a few more years is an advantage, and you unlock old man strength.