Why pedestrian signals count down for nothing

[@cal920c]

This is one of the best explanations of this I've seen! Actually better than the City of Toronto's actual explanation video, without the technicalities of what I was taught by the Durham Region technician!

[@cjgeist]

I think an alternative to this system which might be more common in the US (I personally have never seen pedestrian signals do what is shown in the video) is to have the signals remain on "don't walk" when the timer finishes, but if a pedestrian presses the button to cross, they can immediately switch back to "walk". I believe an advantage to this system is that the light can be switched to yellow as soon as cross traffic arrives (in uncoordinated mode) rather than having to count down the pedestrian signal again.

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Yes in uncoordinated mode that setup works really well - the signals can respond really quickly to pedestrian calls in any direction at any moment. I think the reason that Toronto doesn't use that setup is because so few of the signals actually run in uncoordinated mode, so they never think about it much. Some neighbouring cities do have some signals set up that way.

[@Xpired_PCP]

It should be noted, at least in the city of Ottawa. The uncoordinated intersections check twice to see a vehicle is there. It will check once triggered and the countdown hits zero, then will switch to yellow then red for the opposite side traffic if a car is there. Once it turns red it will then check again to see if there is still a car there. If not, it will revert the opposite side traffic light back to green

[@NewBuildmini]

My suggested solution to the right turns on red falsely calling the side phase, is to delay the actuation by about 5 or so seconds, so that only vehicles that stop and stay will request the side phase.

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

At intersections where the pedestrian signals default to Don't Walk, that's exactly how it's set up! Where the Pedestrian signals default to Walk, I guess they just consider the pedestrian countdown to be a delay in itself

[@Trafficlightsiosandmore]

I searched up why did that on KZbin because I saw the pedestrian sign at the intersection of Monroe Street and Nobili Avenue do this so I’ve wondered why I’m thankfully I found this.

[@CharlieND]

Nice! I was wondering about this. This doesn't happen here in British Columbia but I've seen it happen at Yonge-Dundas streets when the north-south crosswalks count down they turn back on again. The reason for this happening was because of the diagonal crossings.

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Yes, Yonge & Dundas is a slightly different situation. When the east-west pedestrian signals count down to zero, the vehicle signal actually does turn yellow and then red while the pedestrian signal stays in "Don't Walk". Toronto convention is to show 'Don't Walk' during the yellow light since that's the most dangerous time in the cycle as cars complete their turns. Then the next phase is the scramble, so the pedestrian light goes back to Walk after the end of the all-red. But at Yonge & Dundas there is actually no need to do this given that no turns are permitted in any direction. I've pointed this out and hopefully it will eventually get an exception to the rule, to let the Walk stay on between consecutive pedestrian phases. That the north-south crossings count down during the scramble is supposedly due to the old signal controller used at that intersection.

[@kelv3157]

Maybe the reason why for the countdown for Dundas is for the drivers? As an unexpected red aspect may cause an accident, so the countdown is to help prepare drivers to slow down and stop (most drivers refer to the ped signal's countdown to tell when the light is going to change)

[@ZakWolf]

I saw that at an intersection in Boston MA.

[@KarolaTea]

Huh interesting! Never really thought about that, but it makes sense!

[@SeanB88]

The feature is called "Walk Rest Modifier"

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Yes that's right.

[@MatthewHoHiWorld]

Awesome work! Make more of these!

[@AmtrakProductions]

In America what happens is the light just goes to a hand and stays that way until you click the button

[@AmtrakProductions]

In Cambridge, MA, when the Ped countdown gets to 3 the signals turn yellow. I think other cities should follow that policy as well (flashing don’t walk on yellow)

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

They should at least do that here when the next phase has a leading pedestrian interval (4s Walk with no green). Otherwise pedestrians get 10 seconds of Solid Don't Walk before the next vehicle movement gets a green, which is way longer than necessary and will contribute to people ignoring the pedestrian signals.

[@AmtrakProductions]

@@OntarioTrafficMan When the next phase is an LPI, I say start the yellow when the countdown is at 5. Do a nice LPI overlap.

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

@@AmtrakProductions Toronto policy is that there needs to be at least 4 s of Don't Walk before a conflicting movement can begin. Toronto policy is also that LPIs are 4 seconds. So basically they should do Flashing Don't Walk through yellow and all-red, then it works out perfectly. The yellow would begin when the counter is at 6, and the red would begin when the counter is at 3 (speed limit 50 km/h).

[@SEBBARU]

In addition to your excellent explanation: Since pedestrians are not to start crossing once the countdown started, I thought it was to clear the intersection of pedestrians so that cars can make a left turn unimpeded

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Well... yes and no. Yes the countdowns are timed such that all pedestrians are out of the intersection before the start of yellow, so that the cars waiting to turn left can exit the intersection without being stuck waiting at the crosswalk unimpeded. This is actually primarily for the safety of pedestrians, since there is a disproportionately high risk of left-turning drivers failing to yield to pedestrians during the yellow, as they know they have only a short period of time to clear the intersection. But that's not really relevant for the "false" countdowns I'm talking about here, since the light never actually changes to yellow. So it would theoretically be fine to end the countdown at any point and switch back to Walk (although signals never actually do that since it would look very strange).

[@thomastam]

Very interesting!

[@greensprite6067]

Is this filmed in Canada?

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Yes, it's filmed in Toronto

[@THEPLANETEARTH]

i used these to know if i can run the light in time

[@wpgtransitfan0333]

I’ve seen that before in Winnipeg

[@AllieThePrettyGator]

also the countdown helps drivers know when the light turns yellow

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

No. The lights are for pedestrians, and drivers should not look at them to guess when the light will change to yellow. Doing so can cause drivers to falsely anticipate a light, since the pedestrian lights do not necessarily correspond with the vehicle lights. The duration of the yellow light itself is sufficiently long for drivers to determine whether they should brake, or if they should continue through the intersection at a constant speed.

[@NewBuildmini]

@@OntarioTrafficMan Here in Russia, countdowns are both possible for road traffic signals (usually in the yellow section), and for pedestrian signals too. My local intersection used to have a traffic countdown, but in an upgrade they moved the countdown to the pedestrian signals instead. Pretty inconvenient, but since the phasing is set up so that right-turning cars always conflict with pedestrians (it's split-phased), you can look at that pedestrian countdown to know when you're about to go. Traffic countdowns here are common because the traffic lights here still run on fixed timing.

[@Gentrol]

Awesome video! I think more pedestrians should see this. I love the explanations you gave too! I think of this video a lot while referencing signals and sequences to people. Also side question, is that at Sammon and Donlands? The intersection looks somewhat familiar (even though the signals have since been upgraded).

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

Thanks! Yes, it is Donlands at Sammon! Nicely spotted!

[@Gentrol]

@@OntarioTrafficMan That's pretty cool, thank you! I'd love to see more of your videos like this, if you have more planned. This one is great!

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

@@Gentrol I'm honoured! I do have two more traffic signal videos in progress: one on the unique red clearance times used in the Netherlands, and another on transit signal priority. But I'm very busy with other things at the moment and won't have time to work on them until the end of the year

[@Gentrol]

@@OntarioTrafficMan I'm glad you feel that way! Also that sounds very exciting!

[@JMANWiSS]

Very informative!

[@RealRedWolf]

this happens endlessly in Hawaii!

[@RealRedWolf]

but it goes back to the person WHEN there's someone ON the side street wanting to get off, so its totally screwed up and i'll get a video of it