Why Pokémon Remakes are TERRIBLE in 2024

Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver to Pokemon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl. The modern Pokemon games like Scarlet and Violet have caused even more of a bad reputation for the new Pokemon Games so where did it all go wrong?
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#pokemon #pokémon #pokemonscarlet #pokemonviolet #pokemondiamond #pokemonpearl #pokemonbrilliantdiamond #pokemonshiningpearl #gen4 #gen4remake #gen5 #heartgoldsoulsilver #heartgold #soulsilver

[@TKDPandaa]

Which is your favorite remake? Let me know! SUBSCRIBE!

[@e94youtube]

ORAS & HGSS. BDSP on the other hand did nothing right except for the HP bar fix and the removal of HMs, the story of BDSP remains to be the worst thanks to the existence of a decade old Platinum & there aren't any move tutors either. What a shame

[@TKDPandaa]

@@e94youtubeFor reals. It baffles me how BDSP even came out. I love the old charm of the games

[@LuigiTheMetal64]

ORAS, but even then, I still enjoy Emerald. I would play the HGSS Japanese version as my possible second favorite remake.

[@Garde_Mystik]

O R A S

[@TKDPandaa]

@@LuigiTheMetal64WE LOVE ORASSS ❤

[@minislayer3241]

I think remakes should be the relic of the past. Legends proved us that expanding on familiar regions is much more exciting, than just remaking the same game with the game design from 90s, with the original games being ported to be available on new systems

[@TKDPandaa]

yeaaa the remakes should add a little bit to the older games. which was your favorite??

[@minislayer3241]

​@@TKDPandaaI pretty much enjoyed all of them, I just feel like, when you have a home-console, tile-based world looks sort of awkward. So it makes sense to rewamp the whole region for its cities and nature to look much more realistic. But if you've done so much work creating a new world from the ground up, what's the point of retelling the same story, if there's much more new stories, characters and Pokemon to be discovered

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

Platinum is better than Legends though, Legends is just catching pokemon stimulator with an empty barren land to "explore"

[@jamesmatt8397]

ever since the 3ds era, the pokemon games just started to fall off, not in like the worst way. I mean the games were fun and stuff, however with all the bugs and glitches that really wasn't a problem until the switch games came out, so i guess that can be like part of the reason.

[@TKDPandaa]

yeaaa i agree, part of the charm of pokémon games started to fall out. i miss the old vibe of it. what was your favorite remake james?

[@jamesmatt8397]

@@TKDPandaa definitely heart gold and soul silver, as much as i hated the level system in that game, the pokemon availability and the huge postgame they offer is amazing and it still is my favorite remake. Plus the fact that the pokemons you have in those games you could use in battle revolution on the wii is part of the reason why i still play that game.

[@TKDPandaa]

@@jamesmatt8397YOOOO i forgot about the wii stuff. that’s actually so cool. W opinion james

[@theicingcreeper]

I agree with you James how performance issues and glitches have recently impacted the communities view on the latest Pokemon Games, Hopefully eventually they'll be fixed one day

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

bugs and glitches weren't a problem until switch games came out? bro is straight up lying lmao, BDSP's bugs are literally the same bugs from originally DP

[@joopvanhedel1372]

There are platinum locations in Code of the Games. Either ILCA didn't get enough time or the game freak chose to make Faithful remakes. A new studio has been created called pokemon works in the same building as ILCA which is a kind of second game freak so hopefully this won't happen again

[@TKDPandaa]

hopefully, so i’m guessing you didn’t enjoy BDSP??

[@joopvanhedel1372]

@@TKDPandaa I didn't think it was a good game. But what I'm trying to say is that it wasn't ILCA's fault that BDSP was so mediocre. They will probably make all future remakes so I hope they get more time

[@vianabdullah2837]

Legends Arceus is honestly better than if we just got a remake of Platinum but with Dyanamax. The best parts of past remakes were always the new content they added like the redesigned Mauville City and Delta Episode.

[@TKDPandaa]

I agree like the past remakes i loved the delta episode and just seeing all the redesigns but i do have to say legends arceus was rlly fun. Which was your favorite remake?

[@vianabdullah2837]

​@@TKDPandaa ORAS has the most added content but it's hard to be considered the definitive version of Heonn since there's no battle frontier. Even then, everything it added still eclipses all of the new stuff in FRLG. HGSS is probably the one that's most consistently great though.

[@TKDPandaa]

@@vianabdullah2837LOL they gave us a tiny battle frontier in ORAS. Are you gonna get legends ZA??

[@vianabdullah2837]

@@TKDPandaa Probably, Kalos always needed a second look.

[@ryanfoss3894]

In my opinion, the problem with BDSP is that it didn't have to exist, and they chose to really change nothing. FRLG, ORAS, and HGSS needed installs because the original copies made it difficult to move pokemon forward when the true national dex still existed. They were mostly well received because they were functional upgrades of classics. Both in terms of mechanics and minor content additions. Lets Go were remakes, but they had a completely different agenda and were designed for younger children. My coworker was talking about how that was when he got back into the series playing with his son. BDSP, were fine by themselves. But comparing them to platinum, platinum still remains the quintessential was to experience Sinnoh. The hardware is mostly accessible and we've reached the point where many of the pokemon from that generation were available in another way. I hypothesize this leaves a soulless taste for a lot of older players.

[@Walshy8113]

My favourite remakes are HGSS and I have enjoyed all the remakes (BDSP not as much as the rest though). My biggest issue with the Switch era games is Gamefreak being so quick to patch out item duplication glitches (which BDSP had) but not fixing other issues with the games.

[@PK_HH]

As fan of gen 8, BDSP was shit

[@TKDPandaa]

😭😭

[@goldam1986]

The Battle Frontier being removed was however one of the biggest features I loved about the games. But I understand why it was removed. It just wasn't poplar enough. But I feel the exact opposite about it. I want a pok'emon game, that has a play feature that forces all monsters at the same level throughout the duration of the battle. Like Lv.50 all. And have more than 1 style of battling. Wouldn't it be cool if they had a Mega Evolution battle facility available. Setting things up so that you can only bring 1 monster into a battle. But it has to be capable of Mega evolving. Or maybe it could even be a 3 VS. 3. But only 1 monster can battle per match at a time and do a 2 out of 3 battle.

[@theicingcreeper]

Pokemon FR/LG, Pokemon HG/SS Ik are phenomenal remakes, and I really enjoyed them! HG/SS being my favorite of the bunch. I never got to play ORAS, But I heard many good thinks about it except some say it was changed too much. For Lets Go, Its controversial but not too bad, but BDSP Has mainly bad opinions on the game, mainly because many things seemed to be the same from the Originals and also not based on Platinum. Hopefully Pokemon can make comeback with some amazing remakes to bring back hope into the game fan base, and also fix a lot of the performance issues. Really great video and enjoyed it Mark!😄

[@Brianycus]

I don't have to remember it because I was there man... Besides that, I think they lost the love for what a remake is supposed to be. Modernizing an older game with the mechanics of the newer ones. BDSP needed to be more like an updated ORAS at best and something much better than SwSh, which ironically Legends Arceus ended up being. I like BDSP, but it missed the mark on how great it could've been that it would bring more people forward.

[@king_of_rats_Monfernep]

2:10 dark & Steel Almost didn't touch Fire Red and Leaf Green ,and also they do not receive evolution from Johto before beating the game, EVEN FROM HAPPINESS! Therefore, in addition to improving the graphics and reworking the battles, they only added post-game, abilities and shines

[@TKDPandaa]

ahhh interesting to know, are you gonna get pokémon legends ZA??

[@king_of_rats_Monfernep]

@@TKDPandaa no,i am moneyless child,who playing Pokémon Heart Gold and Platinum on Emulator

[@LuigiTheMetal64]

I would rather have Pokémon remakes be like Let's Go in terms of graphics, and ORAS, Emerald, Platinum, and SwSh in terms of gameplay.

[@TKDPandaa]

i see your point, i love the let’s go art style so unique. are you gonna get legends ZA?

[@LuigiTheMetal64]

@@TKDPandaa Maybe when the character designs and graphics are like in Generation 6. Legends: Arceus seemed to copy the Generation 4 art style.

[@TheReZisTLust]

The let's go part was awful lol not having pokebattles felt terrible.

[@LuigiTheMetal64]

@@TheReZisTLust I said "Let's Go in terms of graphics," not "by gameplay."

[@blue94rose]

Johto is just a really beautiful region, I like HGSS because I get to experience the Pokemon World come alive in real life japan. The Pokemon themselves are very simple, it was a great idea introducing Pokemon that didn't make the game easy by having them in your team. In newer games, you can get monsters like Lucario, zoruark, salamence, metagross, tyranitar , gardevoir SOOO early in the game, but in johto, you have good Pokemon too but you don't get crazy Pokemon like them everywhere you go. Your traditional stronghold Pokemon like Scizor and steelix are locked until post-game but you can get their evolution items by playing a fun mini game, and eevee is generally hard to train since there's not a lot of High level Pokemon to train against. Sure you can get dragonite and tyranitar early this time, but you're not even getting them to level 40 before the elite four. The level curve in this game is advantageous to this game because I enjoy using Pokemon like ariados and furret, they are really strong in their home games.. Tl:Dr -- johto is a really marketable and quaint region, that's why it's so close to everyone's heart

[@TKDPandaa]

i agree with you! we love johto

[@djdrizzy9139]

BDSP is defiantly over hated, but as much as I like BDSP (I'm a massive Sinnoh fan), I understand the disappointment. It failed to live up to the hype previous remakes established, likely due to Legends Arceus functioning as the traditional remake of Sinnoh. I do appreciate the new additions such as the GU, new fights agains Dawn/Lucas and new battle tower opponents (such as Team Galactic!!), and new rematches. Sinnoh deserved better.

[@TKDPandaa]

yes i agree the hate is insane LOL but yes they were a let down for a lot of fans

[@HMMadsen]

I remember reading somewhere that when GameFreak decided to do remakes, they themselves originally only wanted to make FRLG and HGSS because of the lack of compatability with the original Gen 1 and 2 games, but then in 2012 they decided to make ORAS because so many fans wanted Gen 3 remakes at the time. It may explain why there's this gap between the first to remakes and the three last, as FRLG and HGSS were done because of an interest to make them, whereas ORAS and BDSP where done because of obligation (idk wtf to make of LGPE though). And that may also be why ORAS and LGPE felt so different to their original counterparts and why BDSP was done by ILCA rather than GameFreak. Given that they didn't want to remake more than the first two generations, being obligated to remake older generations every 5 years or so may be creatively boring. So they spiced it up for ORAS and LGPE a bit, but when they realised that these remakes broke the worldbuilding they decided to hand over BDSP to ILCA and then do all the new creative things for Sinnoh in a prequel game like PLA

[@TKDPandaa]

be apart of the community discord: discord.gg/F4wmhPESUK

[@Valihir]

HGSS is my favorite pokemon game (my second favorite is USUM) But i do feel that ORAS were pokemon multiplayer at its peak and i feel like oras had to add those 6 features and it wouldnt have flowed well if mega evolution was just added with no in game explanation

[@TKDPandaa]

ORAS was an amazing time for us pokémon fans

[@Mr.U34Gaming]

I hope you upload more long pokemon videos

[@TKDPandaa]

that’s the plan ;)

[@BrickUnit]

The charm is gone, basically once the 2d games were over

[@geobro9919]

I actually think BDSP is better then diamond and pearl but theres no reason to play BDSP because of platinum.

[@goldam1986]

Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee I always thought they were pointless. I mean they already remade Kanto once before. There was no reason to do it again. Then I found out a reasonable explanation. It seems the games were made to convince other players to play Pok'emon GO. It didn't work on me. As for Brillant Diamond & Shining Pearl. What a missed opportunity, and wasted potential. The only thing good about it. Is the Underground. You're better off just being a treasure hunter in that game. Just go underground, dig for treasure, and don't come back up. I like (Pok'emon HG/SS Versions) the most. But I have only played (Pok'emon Fire Red/Leaf Green/Heart Gold/Soul Silver/Omega Ruby) (Alpha Sapphire) seems okay too. The other 4 I'm staying away from completely.

[@Doink73]

havent played bdsp, heard it was trash from some friends who have played it. im just hoping legends ZA does well

[@TKDPandaa]

BDSP is alright, that’s just what i can say about them. Me too can’t wait for ZA. Which were your favorite remakes

[@Doink73]

@@TKDPandaa only played scarlet and a little bit of legends arceus but omega ruby and alpha sapphire looked good

[@X3nophiliac]

My favorite remakes are HGSS but i giver an honorable mention to ORAS. I loved a lot of the mechanics in ORAS and the multiplayer UI was peak. Also Im a sucker for the redesigns(well maybe not the sweater designs of team magma lol Tabitha) as well as MEGA EVOLUTIONS. so great!

[@TKDPandaa]

Love this opinion! As much as i love HGSS i equally love ORAS. The designs were so fun and mechanics. Are you gonna get Legends ZA??

[@tylercrawford3483]

Shit I remember when the new games where good too but we haven't had one since gen 5

[@TKDPandaa]

it’s all based on opinions but i agree good games aren’t easy to get, are you gonna get legends ZA?

[@tylercrawford3483]

@TKDPandaa yes solely based on the fact tried something new and it worked. I really feel pokemon needs 2-3 per game

[@MareepCoffee]

HGSS was one of my first games to play and love that Pokémon could follow you. Yet ORAS was fun too however I had more connection with HGSS with my first starter being Chikortia was hard mode already but I had completed most of the game but Red's battle I could never finish.

[@TKDPandaa]

HGSS were the staple of how remakes should be made. I’m glad you loved those games. They were super fun. ORAS was fun too. Are you excited for legends ZA

[@tylerensminger]

Heart Gold and Soul Silver i liked a lot. The Sevii islands? I don't like it as much as this person did.

[@TKDPandaa]

the sevii islands added the complexity we see in the remakes

[@stumpify1]

THE GOAT IS BACKKK

[@GLADIATORDRAVEN]

Pokémon Pokémon!

[@TKDPandaa]

yessirrr

[@TKDPandaa]

GYXO THE GOAT

[@WetSandwich98]

0:32 the "kidding" sounds like "gay" i can't unhear it and i wanna die

[@IsleofPigsStudios]

I haven’t played FRLG or HGSS so I have no opinion on them. HGSS looks to be the better one though. Of the ones I’ve played, ORAS wins by a mile. I hate BDSP with a passion. I know people wanted harder Pokémon Games, but I feel like making the League’s teams competitive or giving Maylene’s Lucario Drain Punch was a mistake. I had never struggled with the third gym before or since. If you want a Harder Pokémon Game, then B2W2 did it best with having a Challenge mode. Having multiple difficulty settings would help make Pokémon Games harder while also letting casual players enjoy a more casual experience. Let’s Go is fun, but ORAS is amazing in my opinion

[@TKDPandaa]

I agree with you I like ORAS is extremely fun. Newer pokémon games need a difficulty scale for people like you or other people who really want a challenge in the games. Do you think you’ll ever play FRLG or HGSS

[@IsleofPigsStudios]

@@TKDPandaa HGSS is more likely, since I have a 2DS. But man, second hand Pokémon games can be expensive

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

nah difficulty in BDSP was justified, you are just bad at Pokemon

[@IsleofPigsStudios]

@@theamazingspooderman2697 Nah, BDSP just sucks. The difficulty was 100% unjustified. They should have added difficulty settings, BDSP is on Hard Mode which is terrible for newcomers.

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

​@@IsleofPigsStudios why was the difficulty bad? give any explanation my explanation to why it was good is because the Elite Four are the strongest trainers so ofc they will feel way more difficult than other trainers, that's literally a basic part of Boss Battles

[@swagkirby3449]

1:37 Is that from a rom hack? Those are their Johto Pokedex numbers

[@TKDPandaa]

it was from some picture i got online, i just wanted to show that you could have johto and kanto pokémon

[@Vulpix28]

I respect your opinion but in my opinion BDSP aren't so bad, they fix some Diamond and Pearl Problem like: the fact where they're slow, the fire Pokemon, the pokemon who follow you (ok, this is broken because Grotle can't follow me, he's too slow) and mutch more. I liked the chibi art style, i don't get why people hates this.

[@X3nophiliac]

its because it was a lazy buggy mess, with no added content that you didn't have to pay extra for

[@TKDPandaa]

i respect your opinion, it wasn’t so terrible but i think more of disappointment for people

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

​@@X3nophiliac same with HGSS and ORAS, they were mostly the same

[@Vulpix28]

@@TKDPandaa People expects too mutch for the remakes, every remakes are't a 3rd version remake (except HGSS), remakes are updates version for old games with new content like the 7 island in RFLG, the battle tower in HGSS, the mega evolution in ORAS and the Ramanas Park for the BDSP.

[@mightza3781]

Only issue is that the handheld Pokemon games were always cheaper than console games (which was what made RBY so accessible to kids; released at the end of the Gameboy's life and half the price of full console games); BDSP are essentially remasters of DS games charged console price. They sold the better than the 3DS remakes for no other reason than the Switch having a bigger install base. BDSP were a quick cash grab; considering the work ILCA did on One Piece Odyssey, it was not lack of talent, but a lack of will from Game Freak. It sets a bad precedent which signals to Game Freak that they only need to do the bare minimum for remakes by outsourcing, while they can pour the extra resources into a spin-off for the region and sell double the games at full console price.

[@Narrative_Ink]

Lol this guy says that Gamefreak had a cohesive narrative and timeline.

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

yeah right? that's a lie through and through

[@TKDPandaa]

they HAD one not anymore, i said it changed ever since gen 6

[@Narrative_Ink]

@@TKDPandaa they literally said that Gen 3 was a reboot for the series. The first two games had mention of America and China. They didn't have a plan from the beginning for any sort of continuity or story. Then years later when it became necessary it was done in a bad way. It's okay to admit that Pokemon has bad stories and continuity.

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

​@@Narrative_Ink also starting Gen 3, we never got to go back to previous regions, which we got in Gen 2 games

[@MAT1ASZTRAP]

Kanto = FRLG LGPE Johto = HGSS Hoenn = ORAS Sinnoh = BDSP Unova = ???? Kalos = LZA

[@TKDPandaa]

legends ZA isn’t a remake so technically next is unova so only time will tell. are you hoping we get a unova remake??

[@MAT1ASZTRAP]

Will Unova and Kalos Get a Remake

[@MAT1ASZTRAP]

But Kalos is a Remake because legends arceus is also a sinnoh remake

[@TKDPandaa]

@@MAT1ASZTRAPi think it’s like a prequel remake

[@TKDPandaa]

@@MAT1ASZTRAPi hope soooo

[@SMBZYT]

How does this video have 188 views??? This video should have way more imo. Great video otherwise.

[@TKDPandaa]

haha thank you very much! my goal is deliver the best pokémon content out here, and thank you for supporting :)

[@giganticmoon]

favorite remakes are oras and hgss oras is just better than hgss gameplay and level curve wise but hgss has more soul put into it and wii functionality

[@TKDPandaa]

i agree with you, both are amazing i love them both. are you gonna get pokémon legends ZA

[@giganticmoon]

@@TKDPandaa HELL YEAH

[@ChicagoPatriot123]

Pokemon in general, the franchise that I am alive of because of, and I'm thankful for is getting worse and it's making me hurt. Ever since Gen 7 it's been on decline. From Gen 1 to 6 or 7 ish was the gold era. Being alive then is like u were in paradise just kyz pokemon enlightened me no matter what.

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

it's been on decline since Gen 2, the story kept getting worse and worse then got good at Gen 5 then again started going down (though Gen 7 was better than Gen 6 and Gen 8) and finally got somewhat ok in Gen 9 it's the same game since Gen 1, that's the major problem

[@NolanWayne-h9n]

Bdsp were a perfect remake. Stuck to the script unlike other remakes. You’re wrong about Hgss being a better remake.

[@TKDPandaa]

to each its own opinion, i was stating the opinions of the vast majority of the pome on community, i even did a poll to back this up

[@NolanWayne-h9n]

@@TKDPandaa that’s fair I wasn’t paying attention just had it in the background

[@Billbobs678]

​@user-bl1ej5ft4d bdsp weren't good because they stuck to the script too much. There's no point to getting them if you have diamond or pearl. And platinum is strictly superior anyway

[@NolanWayne-h9n]

@@Billbobs678 and that’s why I liked them. I suppose they were more of a mixed remaster/remake really

[@Billbobs678]

@user-bl1ej5ft4d yeah but just play DPPT at that point. There's no reason to get these games

[@axel15forever]

Genuinely I really like HGSS, it has access to most of my favorite Pokémon of all time, I love everything about it! I really hope that Z-A does good 🤞 the marketing looks fantastic and I’m excited for the return of arguably the best mechanic ever!

[@TKDPandaa]

Me too! HGSS were super fun! I really hope legends ZA is good, i just want more info on them 😭 what did you think of ORAS??

[@axel15forever]

@@TKDPandaa that’s one that I haven’t gotten around to playing, but I did get to watch my friends play it, and I did play og RS, and adding lore and megas was just cherries and icing atop the cake of one of the best non remake games

[@TKDPandaa]

@@axel15foreverYOO you should definitely play it! that would be super cool. But yes they were super fun. I loved those games so much

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

but Terastalization is mot returning in Legends ZA

[@phillipsesate1364]

You forgot to mention Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon

[@TKDPandaa]

true but i’m not counting those rlly, they gave us wormholes there wasnt too much to talk about. were those your favorite games??

[@IsleofPigsStudios]

USUM aren’t remakes

[@phillipsesate1364]

@@TKDPandaa Sun and Moon are my favorites only because Ive completed the dex in both and I thought Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were good because of the wormholes plus the whole Ultra Necrozma boss which was hard to beat. Plus they added some new Ultra beasts and Marshadow was an exclusive event for the ultra games.

[@TKDPandaa]

@@phillipsesate1364 that’s true they added on to ultra sun and moon but i think they were more of a marketing thing for pokémon to buy more time

[@Hedgie3]

I want to learn more about LZA by watching any upcoming new trailers before I make my decision about if I will get that game or not. I totally skipped BDSP because of the problems that I heard about those remakes. My biggest complaint is that in chibi forms the human characters look too wierd and motionless. They only look normal during battles and contests, and it's truly disappointing that they don't look like that the rest of the time and especially during any cutscenes. The chibi forms were fine only in the original games because of the technical limitations that the DS has, the Switch is a stronger console not totally a hand-held one. I have been liking Violet. I understand that I got that one after Game Freak had made a few downloadable bug patches for it, so because of that it doen't seem as bad as it did on release day. I do understand that some annoying problems still haven't been fixed though.

[@TKDPandaa]

i agree with you, the chibis weren’t my preferred style even though i grew up with bdsp so they were alright with me. violet was alright to me as well and i just think the modern state of pokémon is iffy. but yes i agree let’s see legends za first before jumping on our opinions lol

[@SumiitOfficial]

forgot how cute this guy was

[@TKDPandaa]

ARCHIEEEEEEEEEEE, that’s all you 🤭

[@randomedgygamer2191]

For me its 1)Oras. Seriously, this is peak! albeit a bit easy. 2)HGSS- Stellar for their times. 3)FRLG- They are ok, they are solid. 4) BDSP-an absolute travesty and discgrace. Thank Arceus....Arceus got its game so that it counts as a pre-make if you will for this game is TE-RRi-Ble.

[@TKDPandaa]

LOL i agree with the opinion, do you think your gonna get legends ZA??

[@umbreon13132]

I WAS HERE

[@TKDPandaa]

YESSS

[@kubaignistry2910]

the fandom had delusional expectations reaching to the Himalayas and even higher..... BDSP is a good rimjek

[@TKDPandaa]

LOL i agree we delusional, nevertheless the remakes were alright to me but i respect your opinion. are you gonna get legends ZA??

[@JRR31]

Go ahead and flame me, but I really don't think bdsp deserve all the hate it gets....I liked it, and I love hgss, and believe it or not the consensus among some is that they were the worst remake

[@TKDPandaa]

i agree with your opinion, it’s not so terrible but nevertheless i think it was disappointing for people

[@theamazingspooderman2697]

HGSS is one of the most overrated games, literally did not fix any major problems of Gen 2, play Crystal Legacy instead, much better than that piece of garbage

[@yobobby9]

They fixed everything but level curve and stuck to the OG wild ecounters

[@TKDPandaa]

yes i have to agree with this

[@TKDPandaa]

i mean to each its own but i rather have a polished game versus an unpolished version

[@Gardetrace]

There are hot takes, and there's just being plain wrong. This is the latter.