Why Pure Rogues Struggle In Combat and One Build To Try in Baldur's Gate 3

[@wootenblatz]

Thank you for taking the time to write up a script for this video and reading it coherently. If you're not using a script, accept my thanks for doing exceptional work all the same. I'm so tired of BG3 build videos by creators who just wing the whole thing. They ramble a lot, make mistakes during the build process and generally go on monologues that aren't useful. Also, I appreciate the combat sequence showing how you would play the build. Not all build videos have that, and I feel it is a requirement to establish that the idea works like the creator suggests it should.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Thanks! The first half was scripted, and the second half was practised before recording. I happy you appreciate the latter section of the video, sometimes I do wonder if it makes videos too long. Thank you for letting me know your thoughts.

[@FelipeArthurferpa]

what a good comment, I agree

[@coldwetn0se172]

I've always been a fiend for rogues, in rpg's. One of the great benefits to having a rogue in Act 1, is *because* they are so front loaded. Having a rogue MC or companion in the party that almost always hits during those early levels, makes Act 1 encounters go much smoother. While I generally multi-class Astarion, I have had him as a pure thief Rogue for an entire play through. Having him never roll less than a 10 while cleaning out (stealing...) the Counting House, the docks, and all the unattended basements is a nice little boon. ;) Thanks for the content!

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

You make a good point about the fact that they are front loaded means they're strong earlier in the game. Reliable talent is great, it's just a shame it comes so late in the game.

[@clarkside4493]

I will say, on an Arcane Trickster in Baldur's Gate 3, dropping _Sleep_ on a foe just for me to go up and off-hand attack him is fantastic.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Those automatic crits are great!

[@johnnycool4549]

I always keep Astarion partly rogue so he can pickpocket and lockpick easily. My favorite build for him was 4 thief rogue/5 gloomstalker ranger/ and 3 champion fighter. It gave him action surge, extra attack, lower crits, better armor and weapons, and hunters mark spell. Went from my weakest to my strongest companion, especially with those arrows that attack multiple enemies.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Getting expertise at level 1 is really good, and rogues can work very well for multiclasses.

[@nicky640]

When I get Withers I'm level 3, sp Astarion gets to be a Bard and therefore keep his nice expertise, but in a good class...

[@TheEstafista]

My first ever playtrough was Rogue. Pure rogue. And it was fun in Act 1. In Act 2 I started having problems and having to reload quite a bit. Act 3 was the place where I stopped. My rogue just kept getting pomeled over and over again. And it wasn't fun. My advice would be to avoid rogue for first playtrough. If you don't multiclass (I didin't, mainly because I didin't knew how to) it becomes so booring after a while. You attack, move away, hide, end your turn. That's pretty much most of the rogues turns. I still haven't finished that playtrough just because I missed to many side quests and my rogue is just so weak. On the other hand for my second playtrough I'm playing as sorc. And it's just so amazing compared to rogue! Ofc now I know what I'm doing to begin with so that plays a big part on the fun factor, but still it is way more fun then rogue IMO.

[@ericroll]

I love your final comment, "If you find a class fun, that should be the primary reason you play it." My feelings exactly! I've watched many BG3 videos where they focus solely on combat/damage. I love playing Rogues mostly for the Role-Playing aspect. I've played Rogues as a Deep Gnome, and a Lightfoot Halfling--not because they could deal out the most damage, but because it was a better Role-Playing fit in my mind. Thanks for continuing your exploration of BG3. I love your videos!

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Well said. I mean, there's nothing wrong with finding high damage builds fun either, but I wish to spread the idea that nobody should feel bad for liking a "weaker" class, or that we should look down on people who aren't using the strongest possible builds. Thanks for the comment.

[@DemonOfMyMind]

When I started 5e Rogue was a pretty big disappointment for me. Coming from MMOs and other RPGs I expected them to attack a lot but they just don't. Worse still, Duel wielding, the build you'd expect them to excel at they don't even get a fighting style. BG3 I think makes thief more fun but doesn't change my opinion.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I think it would be fine to give them access to two-weapon fighting, duelling or archery fighting styles, especially considering how strong swords bards are in the game.

[@dittmar104]

Sounds like a fighter really or monk.

[@johnyoungerman1857]

Thx for the video. I think Rogues are fine, did my first playthrough with Astarian being single class and though not often used he did alright when needed. Currently I am doing a run and have a 4/1 Rogue Monk build. Just started it a short while ago, enjoying it quite abit. Peace

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Yeah, as I said they can be used, we can still easily finish the game with one, and they make for a really good multiclass choice.

[@Yesmercy96]

Great presentation thank you very much! I've started a dark urge playthrough as a tavern brawler monk and now i'm in rivington and level 11. I was a little tired from punching people and now this thief build looks really fun and I have all the items for it. I guess I shoud try it out! Thanks again.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Thanks! Tired of kicking ass eh? I'm happy to have inspired you, perhaps you'll find some different items to use with the build I showed.

[@Lavamites25]

This is super interesting! I've seen no build using the weapon master feat, and only a couple using polearm master, so thanks for showing off a build with it!

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

It's the first time I've seriously used weapon master because I would often suggest just taking 1 level in fighter for proficiency in all weapons. However that was off the table when being limited to pure rogues!

[@delidendron]

This is a very interesting build for rogues! I recently made a full thief rogue just for fun and have been enjoying the crit gear and getting like 60-70 damage a hit with a bow, but it is nice to see there is a martial build out there. I might have to give it a try! Also, I almost ALWAYS have a rogue/ranger that uses the speedy lightfeet, it's so much fun.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Getting those sneak attack crits really do feel good! The temptation to multiclass a rogue is very high indeed.

[@servine1212]

Ive been rocking a thief/bard rogue on my astarion. He has a 50% chance to crit everyturn, and the bard levels give him dual wielding, and some nice spells that I can use to debuff enemies or get free advantage. Bard and rogue heavilly compliment eachothee aswell as Astarion is the CEO of stealing and lying. In combat, I can use mobile flourish to close distance on enemies or I can use bladeward to give myself a pseudo rage and allow him to "Tank" in melee if he cant hit and run like I normally have him do. Definitely a fun solid build that is made better by the weapons (Bard 3 swords/rogue rest).

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

"CEO of stealing and lying"...haha I love that description! Swords bards are so strong, especially when wearing just a few particular items! But you're right that rogues and bards can compliment each other, especially for the ultimate skill monkey.

[@MrActeus]

I have beaten honor mode with a multi class off 1 level rogue, 5 levels fighter and the last 6 level rogue again. I took the archery fighting style from fighter, sharpshooter at level 5 and on level 8 I had 4 attacks, each with sharpshooter, one sneak attack per round and the battle master manouvers with double one hand crossbows. In act 2 there is a ring which gives you a smoke screen with a bonus action and with the anti blindness ring you had like three attacks with adv per round. It was insanly strong and I never really struggled in my honor mode play through

[@caglartirkaz1]

Thanks a lot for the video. I think giving the rogues extra attack would solve a bunch of issues. Sneak attack then becomes very valuable especially with things that grant vulnerability to certain damage types. For instance my favourite build using rogues takes advantage of shadow blade and the resonance stone that has a psychic damage vulnerability aura. Sneak attack deals the same damage type as weapon and one can deal some nasty damage using that setup.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

That sounds like a great build!

[@user-wv8yk3xu4h]

For a pure rogue, i like Assassin, dual wielding my main finesse weapon with the club of hill giant strength, use the Titanstring bow with Sharpshooter and my bonus action for hiding. Fits the classic rogue archetype well, and can be effective in melee as well with the right weapon.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Good idea with the club of hill giant strength with the titanstring bow. I'm sure it was very effective.

[@exxon101]

We were doing our second playthrough (both on Tactician). However, Wyll had died in our first playthrough (pushed the wrong button on the Mizora-tank), and so had Ravengard, so there was no-one alive to hand us the Legend of Ansur book. We also never got Counsellor Florick to spawn. This is a long-winded way of me saying we not only didn't reach Ansur on the first playthrough, but, in fact, had no idea he existed. We walked into his boss chamber. Our sticky-fingered Wizard looted the dragon. All hell broke loose. The Wizard got kicked in the head. The Barbarian jumped into combat in a rage and instantly fell prone. The Paladin missed both of her attacks. At the end of one turn... one single turn... we were down to almost half HP. And our Rogue fucking *clutched it.* Astarion sat in the back, loading his bow with Arrows of Dragonslaying, using Bonus Action Hide behind the cover, popping his head out, and delivering shot after withering shot. 70 damage crit. 80 damage crit. 85 damage crit. The guy was unstoppable. Nothing missed. Everything crit. Ansur's armored hide and flat reduction of 4 damage could do nothing against the massive nukes that Astarion was pounding out turn after turn. Sure, he was using dragonslayer arrows. But-and I certainly didn't *keep perfect track* here-I have no doubt that Astarion, at level 12, did 350-400 damage to a level 17 monster who had 600 HP. By himself. Over the course of maybe 5 turns. While the other three members of the team-and they were doing their best here-utterly shit themselves. Nothing connected. Our Wizard, who has an addiction to getting targets Wet by throwing water bottles at them, was caught dead in his tracks against a dragon that *cannot get wet.* Almost all of his spells were AoE, and his concentration broke repeatedly because up to that point we'd been doing a great job of frontlining for him (enter the massive dragon who flies on top of the wizard repeatedly). And what was the tradeoff for all that damage? What hoops did we have to jump through for 1 of our 4 characters to deal 2/3rds of the boss' HP by himself? We had to keep Karlach or Minthara in melee range of the dragon so that Astarion had advantage against it (plus maybe a 500 gold in dragon-arrows). That's it. That's all. The guy was a fucking hero that fight. In just a general day-to-day sense? Every pack of 6 enemies that showed up, Astarion would instantly crit one for its entire HP bar as he entered the fight. The Assassin subclass would refresh his action, and he'd usually get a strong shot off on the second. Before any enemies could even act, he already cut down a third of them. It was completely unfair.

[@ZohMyFkinGod]

Nice build, I think it's the first time I saw a video one it. One thing that could be nice to try is starting with 2 levels of paladin and then go arcane trickster. You'll get martial weapon proficiency so you don't need the first feat. But now you have smites so you trade 1d6 on your sneaks for 2d8 that you can use when you crit. And with level 2 spellslots it becomes 3d8. With an additional 1d8 on undead and fiends. So you kinda scale your sneak damage as well as your smites when you level up. And you can use the mage hand legerdemain from arcane trickster to use the justice sword and cast shield of faith with the mage hand that you leave at camp so it doesn't die and destroy the sword. It will keep the concentration and give you +2 AC the day. So Arcane trickster not only gives us spellslots for our smite, it gives us the AC a shield would give us. I think it's worth the bonus action we lose with thief. Especially if we were gonne use it on the polearm master bonus attack that does almost no damage. I know it's not pure rogue in the end, but that 2 paladin levels dip give you alot. You do lose reliable talent which is crazy good. That's the only big tradeoff we're doing with that multiclass. But since this is bg3 and you get inspirations, your expertise should already be enough. In 5e, reliable talent is much more impactful since you can't reload and you can't reroll with inspirations. But in 5e you can also level up higher than 12 so you'd get it anyway with this build. You would need to beg your dm for a finesse polearm however xD

[@b1ackm4gic]

I went through the game recently as a deep gnome duel wielding melee Theif / totem barbarian / War Cleric (1), it went very well lol. Unkillable skill monkey face, amazing at all saves, good reliable damage with 3+ advantage attacks + sneak attack ... with feat, I had OH sword of screams rapier most of game. Once you get to Act 3 and get the Piercing vulnerability aura + legendary daggers and some of the other Crit support it really takes off and gets silly lol

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Haha, I love your description "Unkillable skill monkey face! I like the sound of your build and shows off the power of rogue multiclasses.

[@joet.7835]

Astarion basically carried me through most of the game on tactician. Throw Greater Invisibility on him and you can out-stealth check or outrun some of the hardest bosses in the game. I managed to kill Sarevok and one of his servants without engaging in combat and was still able to use the Echo's shop afterward. Risky Ring is also really useful to guarantee a sneak attack even without hiding.

[@yohanes2034]

Pure rogue not getting fighting styles (dual wielding and archery) is a mistake. Sure their gimmick is sneak attack so I can understand with not getting extra attack.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I agree that a fighting style choice would be good, and it's not like it would make them overpowered all of a sudden. It would also give us a bit more customisation for our rogue characters.

[@arabtrooper3929]

Durge rouge with the invisibility cloak is actually overpowered, with thief (awaken buff) and all illithid parasites, he becomes absolutely insane.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I feel like I need to point out that any character who has a brain full of parasites is a powerhouse! I had a durge character who took one level in every class, but by the end of the game he was still kicking ass because of the illithid powers. Not to the extent of your durge rogue though!

[@Roonayy]

Arcane trickster can get very high AC in the early game because of mage armor and the bracers of defence. Get rid of the leather armor and build like a wizard or sorcerer.

[@jakeparkinson8929]

Pure rogues are devastating, no class under level 5 can one turn Ragzlin, Minthara, Flind or Ethel. Great weapon master rogues (assassin) hits extremely hard, it has made a number of early boss fights literal easy piss. I will say now, solo gwm assassin is definitely possible in honour mode. Just do the following: 1.) Infernal robe from having wyll in party (but not in use) 2.) Death Stalker Mantle from being dark urge. 3.) Phalar Aluve since its a dex-based longsword that makes sneak attack and great weapon master work together on a rogue. 4.) Temp reclass to warlock to unlock shovel as a ritual spell 5.) Use shovel to surprise enemies so you activate assassins alacrity/initiative for 3 crits in a row 6.) Be Duergar for invis cantrip + free enlarge 7.) Great weapon master feat for flat out 10 increase to damage + extra attack on crit or kill 8.) Whispering promise for bless (healing with potion does not break stealth.) 9.) Use the mage armor scroll at the Tower in the underdark to boost ac from 16 to 19 as to not be flimsy as a rogue (pure) 10.) at level 8 get medium armor proficiency feat for the yuan ti scale mail to have dex increase from 17 to 18 and minimum ac of 19 freeing up your glove-slot. 11.) Rogues get 4 feats, one at every four levels and one at level 10, the final feat or level ten feat should be a glaive weapon proficiency for dancing breeze, its a dex based glaive that should work with both sneak attack and great weapon master as phalar aluve did. Its pretty much a direct upgrade. Final verdict: If rogues can't hit more than once like a fighter, then focus on burst damage targeting problematic enemies first. Currently near act two's end as a solo combat encounter assassin (melee only) with no party buffs like longstrider/warding bond/etc. The amount of damage a rogue can do can outpace a barbarian, their lower hitpoints and lack of martial weapons and armors do make them a glass canon.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Thanks for the write up, I know it's not necessarily a quick thing to do. Using Shovel to get surprise is strong almost no matter the class, but I can appreciate that it works with assassins the best. I like the gwm rogue, which is why I put it in the video, so I really like the build you described.

[@mineflameblade8788]

If Rogue had soul knife, Swashbuckler, anything other than arcane trickster in the game. It would honestly be a lot better off for it. There are mods that add those classes in but in all honesty. If you really want to be a good rogue. Gloomrogue is the way to go. Its my default build for Astarion and whenever I decide to have him in the party. He kicks a LOT of ass.

[@alexsamurai1230]

This build would love 1 level of War Cleric

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

A war cleric dip is almost always a good idea for any melee character!

[@warmagicks]

i booted up my astarion tactician run where he's a pure rogue thief... this was after two and half runs of running him as a gloomstalker assassin in honour mode. i don't think i can even play pure rogue again! 😭

[@zackzebedi561]

I think the game generally suffers from a lack of items that give abilities per encounter. It would make many things way better such as the paralyze amulet.

[@vladimirtchuiev2218]

You glazed over this in the video, but it is worth emphasizing. IMO, Arcane Trickesters are the best pure rogues. Why? They can get very tanky with Shield spell and a Shield, they have a lot of utility in terms of ritual spells, freeing your full casters from needing to cast longstrider and such, and their CC ability with scrolls after level 9 can't be understated. With a AoE disables as Confusion, Sleet-Storm, and with a boss-targeting Hold Monster, they can trivialize many combat scenarios without having to dish out a lot of damage themselves, and with their CC they can guarantee crit-strikes. Shame that they don't get sneak-attack spells like in Pathfinder though...

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

You make good points, and I like the level 9 ability a lot. In one of the early patches sneak attack was working with spells, but apparently it was a bug and it got removed :(

[@lostsoulman]

They are thematically great. Lower end of the power curve

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Yep! You know what you're getting from the name of the class.

[@TheSolidSnakeOil]

I cheese the crap out of Act 3. I use the Drakethroat Glaive to buff everyone's weapon at Raphael's boudoir. I currently doing my first honor mode run, so I'm going to avoid it this time around.

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I would actually do it the other way round on my first honour mode run and use all the cheese to make sure I finish! However I commend you for actually sticking to the idea of honour.

[@smarmypapsmears634]

Sneak attack is 1 per turn, I just tried it myself

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I mean, I showed in the video that Lae'zel got to use sneak attack as a reaction, but then on her turn she couldn't use it after attacking. bg3.wiki/wiki/Sneak_Attack_(Melee): To back me up, apart from the video evidence, it recharges at the end of the rogue's turn. As in once it's used, it cannot be used again until after the rogue finishes their next turn.

[@smarmypapsmears634]

@@CasualVeteranGamer maybe unintended bug?

[@blazingazong]

Thief kinda gets extra attack at level 3

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I understand where you're coming from but it's not quite the same though because it's limited to one handed light weapons and doesn't have the ability score added to the damage roll. If you are dual wielding hand crossbows with sharpshooter then it works much more like an extra attack since the bonus action attacks then actually do considerable damage.

[@ecbrown6151]

Difficult to not take 3 Ranger for Gloomstalker/Assassin

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

Isn't it just! They work so well together!

[@moonman6359]

They should be getting the most bonus feats of any class. They don’t. Sad!

[@CasualVeteranGamer]

I think it's sad that their extra bonus feat comes at level 10, which feels so late. It would be good for them to get a bit more in the mid levels I feel.

[@BOBBOBBOBBOBBOBBOB69]

Thief Monk is pretty good.