Why Supports AREN'T Organized by Healing - Main & Flex Support Explained

[@FermentedGrapes]

Now i can blame my supports more accurately. Thank you!

[@FootballDailyBen]

lol love this.

[@waterrr6332]

Lmao, actually better than just saying "Heal". Rather shit on my Lucio for not speeding in

[@niyo919]

Got any grapes?

[@Bluemansonic]

Waddle Waddle

[@josivantorres2218]

Are you a dps or tank player?

[@bink97]

Dark lord caught a stray for no reason 😭

[@BeefFondler5000]

I can name 22 reasons

[@possiblypigeon]

@@BeefFondler5000 lived 23 times

[@GeniusI2_3]

@@possiblypigeonpouring honey on my goat

[@taurenplay]

everyone is caughting strays in this vid, my man is on a WAR, every min is a punch on the chin of non-pros 🤣

[@olivesoup7638]

1:57 pge catching too many strays

[@okokokok1457]

Collateral damage

[@temmlygaming5509]

Just like he caught those deaths

[@PSYDET]

Didn’t bro die 22 times?

[@Mythqil]

​@@PSYDETpossibly

[@senor135]

gotta work on his cover usage

[@vividdaydream1516]

For anyone confused about what the "mainheal/offheal" vs "main support/flex support": *"Main support/Flex support"* is a way of classifying players, not heroes. A "main support" refers to a player who _mains_ specific support heroes. A "flex support" is someone who _flexes_ to whatever support the team needs at the moment. *"Main healer/Off healer"* are support sub-roles from early OW1. Main healers were called that bc they had very heal-focused playstyles that _mainly_ focused on healing & helping their teammates. Off-healers got their name due to healing being an _off-hand_ side activity for them, designed to supplement a damage-focused playstyle.

[@cyberfish6507]

Thank you for driving home the point that these DO NOT MATTER for almost 100% of people. That's the one thing I knew about MS vs FS prior to this video, because every single person I've talked to or heard try to explain them has had differing or outright conflicting definitions.

[@Coach_Ocie]

I will say, it is useful to know even just for people who watch and enjoy my videos casually, and for people watching professional play casually. Having an understanding of FS and MS is very helpful and can provide context in terms of hero choice and the players' hero pools.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

​@Coach_Ocie How the comps work is beneficial, but why it works is another question. Being popular or historical has little to no merit. As it leads to "tradition" rather than actual strategy. In essence, there's a reason why Tank and DPS have different categories of positioning much like Support. The more positions a character can take or if a character can hold down one positions extremely well. That is the why.

[@Hjalteetwtefugkcl]

@@absolstoryoffiction6615not one point was made. That was actually just yap

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

@Hjalteetwtefugkcl This flex healing comp is purely all yap. Don't talk when this Clip even knows that it means nothing beyond what tournament players choose (not the 99% majority of players). It's all yap. A lot of "how" but none of the "why". To the point of holding tradition back in OV1 too for older Supports.

[@yaxxydesu5776]

Knowing Juno is played as a main support made me fall on my knees praying in a Walmart, thank god for this gift 🙏🏽🙏🏽

[@TR-ju5re]

Why does this matter? Unless you're a pro player?

[@yaxxydesu5776]

​@@TR-ju5re Because i want to ?

[@Lúci-o-ohs]

​@@TR-ju5reit does actually matter below pro, diamond and above realistically

[@TR-ju5re]

@@Lúci-o-ohs Care to elaborate? I'm genuinely curious ngl

[@TR-ju5re]

@@yaxxydesu5776 could you not play her if she was a flex support? I don't understand? If she doesn't get the "label" of main support she is off limits somehow?

[@alyysaa]

i did know most of the information about MS and FS but the extra historical context was v helpful

[@BlondeMcGuinn]

Hey Coach! Fantastic video. I commented on a short of yours about this topic because I didn’t understand the main/flex terminology. I now understand it because of your explanation. I appreciate you. Edit: 11:25 I’m glad you address this. Even after learning about the terminology, I still didn’t understand why Bap/Zen aren’t considered main supports. Edit 2: 14:55 Lol this is why I was initially so confused by the terminology in your short because I’d heard the same names before but used differently. This video is immensely valuable. Thanks again!

[@romeroamsrome]

man u showing ur voice progression in every video really motivates me to take my own voice training more seriously good progress GOAT

[@midknight1339]

Ikr I watched a video of hers from 3 months ago and wow she's made so much progress in so little time

[@theSato]

oh.. is this person trying to have a more feminine/masculine voice? just kinda sounded like a normal boy to me honestly, but good on them for working on changing traits into ones they'd like to have, it's more than some people do!

[@selearth3123]

@@theSato Ocie uses she/her so my guess is she's trying to feminise it!

[@haasithgarapati8261]

I know from your previous videos that MS and FS were made to classify META patterns in pro play, but I’ve always wondered WHY certain heroes fell into those category. My personal definition of MS and FS which helps me a lot in intermediary ranks such as diamond and masters is that MS heroes are stabilizers while FS heroes are burst value heroes. This definition doesn’t perfectly fit the accepted definition of MS and FS but I find it to be helpful for choosing backline compositions. I feel that heroes like Brig, Lucio, Mercy, and LW are stabilizers because they have very consistent healing that doesn’t rely on aiming, which means that even in stressful situations, the MS will still output consistent value since they don’t have to worry about aiming. It’s like how if a mercy is getting juggled by a Winston, she can still heal reliably with her staff; an Ana meanwhile is almost completely locked out from providing value to her team if she is being juggled since her camera will probably being flying everywhere and aiming will be tough. The key word is ‘consistent healing’, not necessarily ‘high healing’. An Ana can certainly have a higher potential to heal her other support if they are being dived, but she would be less consistent than a Brig or mercy. In low-intermediate ranks, I find that double FS comps are very bad and often even worse than double MS comps because of how volatile and unstable the back line is. An Ana Zen comp can output insane value in a team fight, but they are very easily cut off from the fight imo. If that Ana was played with a Brig or Mercy on the other hand, the Ana can have peace of mind knowing that someone can ‘consistently’ have her back. Technically zen’s healing orb is consistent, but it’s so low in value that it does nothing to effectively defend a fellow FS unless they combine it with other abilities. By my definition, characters like Illari and Moira have elements of MS since they have some CDs with consistent value, but they still fall into flex support because that consistent value can be easily cut off (destroying pylon, forcing team away from Moira orb, cutting off Moira healing stream, etc).

[@2-question-marks]

couldn't you rename your definitions to "Stabilizer" and "Burst" though and avoid having one name for two concepts

[@Coach_Ocie]

I think it's a bit easier just to learn that Ana+Brig is good with Dive and Bap+Lucio is good with brawl. I feel that any attempt to create new definitions just overcomplicates the issue.

[@haasithgarapati8261]

@@Coach_Ocie Fair enough lol

[@sneakyrocks]

if you want to actually create "definitions" a simple way to think of it is flex support focuses more on micro plays (mechanical plays) and main support focuses more on macro plays (team play). all the flex supports have damage dealing as core parts of their gameplay, you need good raw mechanics to play flex support well, while the main supports are built to function by assisting their team (peel from lucio brig lw, speed from lucio, damage boost from mercy). obviously there's still a lot of micro play in main supports, like dealing lucio damage and everything about brig, but it's less of a priority compared to flex support.

[@BlazeD_7]

​@@sneakyrocksSo that would make Juno a main support. Her hyper ring is used to win team fights on a macro level, same with her torpedoes. See but here's the problem, Juno can't stabilize well if her aim is in juperdy

[@seanjohnston565]

My real takeaway here was the different backline formations, what their roles are, and when and where they are effective or not. It made it even more interesting to hear this in the context of the history of support roles in an ultra competitive environment. Very nicely done. This was both extremely practical and engaging, plus there are very few sources that explain these concepts with such execution. You had points to deliver. You got the job done effectively, straight to the point, and with an interesting backstory. 100% subbed now. On that note, I have not viewed your channel prior to this content, but an updated video of a similar nature, describing dps and tank synergies would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time and investment, and keep up the good work, sir.

[@Its-SKLR]

Great video, very informative, while i'm not skilled enough for the MS vs FS to be useful (i'm a mid plat to low diamond Support) my friends continuously say Main Support and Flex Support based off healing, so i'm glad i did my research to actually gain the knowledge instead of just taking what some streamer said (Flats) and using it in the incorrect way like they do.

[@blacktimhoward4322]

Oh man I've been wanting someone to explain this for the longest. I know you said LW was unredeemable on a recent stream, but I'd like to see a greater focus on making mercy/LW viable rather than adding new main supports.

[@Coach_Ocie]

Mercy and LW are problematic because their core issues lie in their kits. That means that you'd pretty much have to scrap their core playstyle and commit to a full rework. I kind of doubt that will ever happen, especially because the devs don't like scrapping the (gameplay) identity of a hero.

[@Mongoliantiger]

​@@Coach_OcieFull rework could also make them require more skill which in return you could give them more powerful kits. Currently their no aim autolock mechanics dosent deserve to be strong. Mercys dmg boost is already problematic as it is

[@Coach_Ocie]

Oh yeah for sure, that was what I meant. The problem is the fans of LW and Mercy (especially Mercy) that would go primal over even small changes (much less large ones) made to their hero's kit.

[@blacktimhoward4322]

@@Coach_Ocie I continue to be astonished by your response rate and I wish you unbound success as a creator

[@KingAssRipper69]

They need to just remove weaver and mercy from ranked and keep them in quick play.

[@heliotropei]

I don’t play Overwatch anymore (haven’t touched it in like a year) but love watching your videos (and other coaches who make content on YT), it’s just interesting hearing explanations for why or when something works from healer classifications like in this video to your play analyses. Thanks for the educational and entertaining content Ocie!

[@tohamas8973]

Thank you for putting my thoughts and frustration(from others being confidentiality incorrect) into words ❤

[@vinci.o7]

Great video as usual Ocie! Just wanted to add a few notes since I saw some confusion in the comments. There are general tendancies with main and flex supports (which I like to follow). In general, main supports have automatic healing (Juno and Zen are likely exceptions). Think of Lucio aura, Brigitte inspire, Mercy beam and Lifeweaver heals. All of them have very simple mechanical requirement (in healing and damage). An argument can be made for Illari as her pylon is automatic healing however her secondary healing is aim intensive. Regardless, Juno, Illari and Zen are standouts since both the Main or Flex support plays them, it really depends on the team composition. Think of FDGod playing Zen when the FS plays Ana, or more recently, the team FNATIC in OWCS Korea having their FS player (Izayaki) on Juno when Leejaegon (the MS player) played Brigitte. Coming back to established main supports, due to their mechanical ease, main supports have historically been the ones who address macro plays and calls (ex: Ult tracking, communicating positions of enemies etc) Since their attention is not as occupied as other roles in the team, they typically are the ones addressing the macro of the team.

[@vinci.o7]

However, as the game modernizes along with its professional scene, this historical aspect of main supports have been toned down to a tendency. For example, Lucio is a very mechanical support to play (I'm saying this as a Lucio main and main support player). However, his basic mechanical requirement is easy to grasp. The meta of MS + FS may have unintentionally or intentionally added the benefit of having at least one player who's attention is free enough to focus on the macro play.

[@Wortatne]

The pge callout lmao

[@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong]

That match was so bad for him, I think I'll start calling people who perform so badly that the team had to carry super hard "Pulling a PGE"

[@shnitzel9052]

yeah but he's goated so

[@soundbuster1]

poor pge

[@Coach_Ocie]

Don't worry he gets redemption video soon

[@benpar223]

@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong but that Dorado game tho

[@dimitri371]

Also in early OW1 (pre-role lock) flex support could play Sombra/Soldier/Roadhog in niche scenario single support compositions which is part of where the terms come from

[@TrollDude3]

Ocie did mention that flex supports also flexed roles

[@tomcrawley3343]

In OW1 we had main tanks and off tanks, which largely felt intuitive but had similar reasoning to the main/flex support. Meta compositions generally had Rein, Winston, and Orisa paired with one one of Zarya, Dva, Roadhog - there was some discourse around Sigma and Ball, though iirc Ball was more often considered a main tank than Sigma largely because Sigma was used in Double Shield comps with Orisa and because Ball had strong engage. Double off tank compositions were sometimes played, such as a brief Dva Hog meta, and sometimes Hog and Ball torture, though I don't ever recall a double main tank meta happening outside of a very rare Winston Ball comp. The big difference compared to support main/flex is that the roles actually had a meaning in-game for tanks and wasnt just down to pro player hero pools. Main tanks were generally your main form of engage and held the very front of the frontline, while the off tank supported that engage or peeled your backline. Ball's ability to set up engages is why he was generally considered main tank I think.

[@petergildea3049]

Ocie's voice is so soothing... she has such a pretty voice T-T

[@wondergrounded]

Thank you for your videos. Despite there being a number of videos explaining the game, somehow I understand the game more when I'm listening to your content.

[@Switch_X_Back3884]

Your absolutely right. I watch a former overwatch pro coach. And he had a vid on this. Main and Flex support. And that really only pertains to pro play. But it's still something that if you understand can help you.

[@Arle3597]

THANK YOU FOR THIS 1:02 - 1:15 I swear sometimes I see people get way too focused on these definitions (me included) in casual or low rank games and that kind of mentality applies more or less only to high level play, so while it’s very cool to understand these definitions, they shouldn’t define the way you do or don’t play (unless you play Mercy Weaver, then I’m coming to your house and unplugging your monitor) Ps: The voice improvement is crazy, KEEP GOING QUEEN

[@broomlord8557]

Amazing to see the growth of your channel! Also i enjoyed this video way too much for the soul reason it feels like you played a ladder game and someone said something stupid so you made this video right after the game ended. Which is exactly what I'd do

[@martinverbeek5214]

I knew about the concept from skrims back in the day but from my time in the ranked ladder I realized that these terms were very easy to mix up. Love the clarification in the video and I hope people learn that it isn't just healing output being considered but more the general viability throughout overwatch.

[@sticktostick6669]

Thank for your great content! Im hoping you will continue to make content for each idividual supports heroes

[@flock8903]

Imma start this off with, great video. As an OW1 Player who watched the Pro-Scene and partly kept up with it (Los Angeles Gladiators fan), I learnt Main vs Flex before Main and Off, but I kept to the Main vs Flex one cause the pros know what they're talking about. I always follow the idea of Main n Flex myself, and I also follow the idea of Hitscan n Flex now as a DPS main, but when I play Support, still keep to Main n Flex. Heck, I followed Main n Off tank when I was playing OW1 (Was a Hog main, but I loved playing Reinhardt as well). I'm also a Brig main who loves playing Ana, and a Junk main who loves playing Sojourn. So I can always switch to Main or Flex at will. I don't touch Tank cause it's atrocious to play rn, and I play for fun, not to lose my hair from pulling it out lol.

[@tylercrabb-nicholson7960]

Love the videos man, really the only thing fueling me to improve at the game

[@gren6834]

very peak video BRIG ZEN PEAK

[@Coach_Ocie]

Brig Zen is, in fact, peak OW

[@Drew-fn6rq]

For real. 6v6 brig zen please (zen lover)

[@synvolatris8679]

I miss zen comps ana zen and brig zen was so much fun to play

[@TheBoodercg]

Still feel as though Brig and Lucio share that Main support utility in low elo. They both carry that healer utility while bringing something entirely unique to the table. Lucio speed gets heroes out of fights and helps with ults, and heroes that need to brawl. Brig is the brawler that never was. She can be played backline and deny flanks and dive completely and singlehandedly, there isn’t a dps or tank in the game that can accomplish what Brig (or Lucio) in context of fights, even in healing output, not many support heroes can heal through bubbles/shields and both Brig and Lucio can, and both of their ults are momentum changing unlike Lifeweaver or Mercy, whos ult just “sustain” or “maintain”

[@Coach_Ocie]

MS and FS are not roles based upon utility.

[@ZenoTheVampire]

Finally have a cohesive video to send to fledgling supports when they ask me about this

[@brian21282]

Lucio is a main support because the other 2 options were Mercy and Zen, which were the 2 that flexed, e.g. pharmercy. When Ana was added, speed was still good and in a way she was a hybrid of Mercy pocket/Zen damage. Now is where confusion happens IMO. Moira, Bap, and Brig were also AOE healers who were experimented as main support. Mercy being single target is now argued as a flex support, which she has been at times, again mainly to pocket a specific dps. Moira lack of utility makes her poor replacement for speed. Brig works as MS because if you give up speed her defensiveness and ability to protect work in the meta, but originally in GOATS she was a flex because stacking AOE and speed for brawl. Teams experimented with bap as an anchor MS in a similar fashion when two shields bunker was a thing. Arguably, Bap was never going to overtake Brig in this role, especially in 5v5. Plus they stack! Kiriko and illiari seem natural FS given overlap with Ana, Bap, and Zen. Lifeweaver conceptually could work as a push pull MS, to offset lucio push and brig stand firm. Juno is second most interesting character because has speed to compete with Lucio and not super great with Lucio, Brig...or Mercy? Over time, Mercy has been most interesting since she has been both and really fits neither. She may be a FS that doesnt work with any MS and that may be LW issue too. MY ACTUAL POINT: Many people think main support means AOE healer because Lucio and Brig are the only core meaningful Main Supports for OW esports. So, Moira and Bap sometimes get lumped in. MS is seen as less mechanical (mostly given how bad Lucios were 8 years ago), so that means Lucio, Brig, Mercy, LW, and moira get lumped in. With Moira you have an argument for Kiri as MS funny enough, which we have also seen. In the end, the MS/FS roles are a category of heroes to master for competitive play to cover most metas. Ocie said all this, but I wanted to touch on the AOE (MS) v. Single target (FS) confusion in a historical context. Whew!

[@theSato]

this really needs more line breaks/spacing, so it isn't just one wall of "TL, DR" text lol

[@brian21282]

@@theSato Nah, rant more fun than saying MS is whatever character your Lucio player plays.

[@Xeonz1000]

Truly learned so much from your amazing content. Please keep the hardwork❤

[@amandajas6287]

Incredibly informative! Thank you so much!

[@Bugabogodofwargaming]

thank you for this video as a support main im always always wanting to learn more im still learning the mechanics of ow2 competitive n was asked in high bronze to be a flex support i had no idea what it meant n asked my tank to be specific n he said i should know if im in comp. well i always thought flex support meant being flexible as a support main now i have a better understanding of it. Ocie your videos have been really helpful n they're very educational thank you for bringing videos such as these for the casual overwatch playerbase

[@NoBotOW]

Actual NEED this video just addressed. Well made.

[@LeandroCosta-yu2tp]

Fantastic video! Really well explained. Looking forward for the June video

[@Dospe]

Great video, it has bugged me that Illari is a "flex support" even though there's probably no main support she should ever be paired with, but I'm glad you acknowledged that lots of main support players have learned her too. 16:34 - I will say that you might be underestimating the value of comfort picks for your "average ladder player" (keeping in mind the average is around plat). The lower in rank you go, players are going to have smaller and smaller hero pools. The issue is that some players themselves aren't even aware how big of an impact difference they have on their main vs the supports they've barely touched. If my support line is running Lúcio + Mercy and I'm a brawl tank, I'd love to have a good Bap player instead of that Mercy. But if I ask for Bap, I run the risk of an inconfident support who doesn't even know his healing arc swapping to him. So asking for a "main healer" is much safer, allowing them to think of their hero pool and pick from any of like 7 options that would all be much much better than Lúcio + Mercy. All this to say that I agree that it's annoying that we have these slightly different terms that mean wildly different things, but they do have their reason for existing in the lower half of the ladder.

[@Coach_Ocie]

On the lower half of the ladder, you usually don't need to ask people to switch. The level of play is pretty easy to advance out of, and hero choices matter less. You can always ask for Bap OR Moira as well.

[@racheldickinson6029]

Brig Zen hasn't been retired yet; before Juno dropped in owcs korea on maps with secure defensive highgrounds like dorado, teams such as Poker Face would play Ball Brig Zen and were winning maps with the comp. Without the existence of a second tank to absorb damage the lack of burst healing in the comp has made it weaker in comparison to Overwatch 1 but the resurgence of Ball has shown that it can be viable. I reckon that if Juno gets nerfed and Zen gets a 25 hp buff again (and Ball sees no changes), Brig Zen would have the possibility of becoming a staple backline once more.

[@amitaisaiger8784]

Great video - the only thing I would point out is that from watching pro OW it seems like teams with only one flex support are almost always having their main support play illari in bap illari comps and putting their flex support on bap. I don't actually think I've ever seen any team do it the other way around. It's possible I missed some matches where that happened, but certainly in recent competitions like OWC and recent OWCS it seems much more common to put the main support on illari than bap. That isn't to say I think illari is a main support - just that right now it seems more common for teams to have their main support play her than to make their main support play bap.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

Bap and Illari deal a lot of damage with the easiest high burst healing / sustained healing. It's one of the few comps where you can throw a Widow in and everyone DPS Focus Fire while the Widow picks off important targets. Leave the healing pod near Widow or within her grapple hook range. It's mainly a Brawl heavy comp.

[@AmazedIsLive]

Since the terms "flex/main support" are only used in pro play to define what heroes pro players use. I don't really see the issue of people (people on ladder) creating their own form of the "flex/main role". I don't understand why someone has to be WRONG here, I think in ladder most people agree on the fact that. Flex supports are supports that give utility, and main supports are supports that are generally for heals. It's nice for players on ladder to have an easy way to say "we need more heals" or "we need some util to counter X", even though you are completely right about the origins and the meaning of the terms. I don't really agree that players on ladder that use these terms aswell are wrong. They just use them for some other meaning, it's like saying someone speaking a different language is wrong. (if that makes sense) Still really enjoyed your video, I also played tank role in low tier pro play. But never really fully understood the flex/main support roles, only knew which ones where which.

[@mightymak1416]

I really like this kind of stuff, different from what you used to do but are all fantastic videos! I would love to see a video like this on dps as well!

[@chunksfunks960]

thanks for these videos man. fueling my overwatch special interest

[@Valroirr]

Thanks for breaking it down Ocie I did know about this beforehand but like not to that extent nor as in depth I just knew it wasn't something a gold scrub like myself would be anywhere near. When I play Winston tho yeah having an ana is so nice and ranked ladder is not pro play. Thanks for the info and I'm looking forward to the Juno video since those matches were super interesting to watch

[@1SSJA]

I knew which heroes belonged to which titles but I never knew why until today. Cheers coach

[@esmepipkin6087]

Lotta really interesting information in this video. Great work!!!

[@luciots134]

i wish overwatch anonymous on twt had posted when i submitted THIS EXACT PHRASE (1:05) a week ago, it wouldve been cool to predict one of your vids

[@Pititisch]

Thanks for the video. Loved the Terran OST❤

[@Coach_Ocie]

Brood War is the best ^_^

[@wondergrounded]

Nice choice of background music :)

[@LordTutTut]

Randomly found this video, havent played overwatch in months nor at anywhere near pro levels, but it was very interesting nonetheless. Thank you for the write up :)

[@Lasszone]

4:07 if u put lucio picture here it would made the vid better

[@Ryan-kn1qk]

Real

[@raa9756]

great vid, used to scrim a lot n shit and you got me back into memory lane

[@XSkimmilkmanX]

Thanks for your input Uncle

[@valllllleeeeeeerrrrriiiee]

i love your voice so much its so soothing

[@Owl_19]

Honestly the heroes only played in double flex (illari mostly) are so weird, they almost feel like a third category of support at this point, even with their own dedicated players that a lot of teams are subbing in (eg. cal, majed). compositionally they're like main supports, as they are only played alongside flex supports, but hero pool wise it's almost always a fs player playing them. makes my brain hurt a little lolol. Anyway, great video! Hopefully a lot less misinfo/misconceptions will be floating around. Surely.

[@advikdeshmukh805]

One thing I’d disagree with is that main healer and off healer are useless in ranked play. You mentioned asking people for a specific character but very often, people have varying skill levels for different main healers. Asking a person who mains bap/lucio/brig to swap Ana could be very bad in a comp game if they only play bap as their primary healing character. That’s why I think categorizing main and off healers are important, it gives people options within a defined pool to choose from that they may be good at.

[@Falllll]

At higher levels of ranked, you would more or less simply be expected to actually be able to play the hero in question at a competent enough level to enable the comp. Or, failing that, one of the several heroes that would work in that comp. Or just find a way to make things work. At lower ranked levels, you can simply ask for one of several heroes. Or, as someone I once played with said, "can we get a more...burst heal-y support here?" But also, you can get away with very much not optimal comps in ranked.

[@advikdeshmukh805]

@@Falllll I was T500 last season and tbh, nobody ever asked me to play anyone with more heals. I think I'm the exception because I can't play anyone that falls under the "main healer" category at anything above a low masters level other than kiri.

[@Falllll]

@@advikdeshmukh805 That would probably be partially because "more heals" is more of a lower ranked ask.

[@advikdeshmukh805]

@@Falllll true. I played a couple games on my friends account as support and people kept asking for heals because they don’t know what natural cover is 😅

[@thomasbrodie-sangsteredits5971]

Ocie videos always amazing!

[@Khy_r]

idk why im watching this ive known this since its inception LOL. still great vid and i like ur channel so i keep supporting u girl

[@dirgegraves5403]

Call me crazy but did I hear OG SC music? Sir you got a sub.

[@Nickelback8469]

I believe Brig/Zen could be relevant again if we ever had a hard Ball meta, and Lucio/Zen was being toyed with at the beginning of the S9 changes. It's a shame they haven't come back full swing yet

[@mage0534]

I remember getting into ow and being fed the different terminologies of main support, flex support, off healer, main healer, I've even heard flex healer once. But I did eventually learn what flex and main supports were through a... passionate friend of mine.

[@LexyGoyette]

yes, but in the end, the reason why the role of zen and Iliarie is debated is because of healing outputs. you have to admit that generally speaking, main supports will have less healing output, than flex supports. that's why using one of each works so well. if we look at meta paterns, there will more often be a main healer with an off healer than a main support with a flex support. that's because zen and Iliarie are not in the correct role. but we can't change that. like you said, the choice of putting your flex support on zen was made way too many years ago to be changed. what I'm trying to say is that even tho the roles are based on meta patterns, they could have also been based on healing outputs and the difference would not be very significant.

[@xveluna7681]

The thing is that no one cares about what pros play. The only care about what is possible on ladder and what reflects higher level play. Main / Flex needs to stop being taught. Main / off tanks stuck around because it actually makes sense for ladder play. How players really divide themselves and actually react to support picks is based upon more of a main / off support mentality. The main support is main heals because that's what supports do the most of any other stat. They HEAL people. Its what makes them unique over every other character in the game. Off support provides the off duty things. Most people see lucio, zen, mercy, and brig as the off support. With the main support being ana, moira, kiriko, baptiste, Illari, etc. When you combine two main supports together you still have one providing the bulk of healing focus and the other providing more of the other utility / dps. This is how most people think. Healing primary, effects/dmg secondary.

[@Coach_Ocie]

Did I not state that these terms were created by professional players FOR professional players? These terms are taught to players competing professionally, and taught to those playing in amateur organized tournaments. No, these terms won't stop being taught, because they are incredibly useful for the actual target audience.

[@Coach_Ocie]

I stated these terms aren't used for ladder or with the average player in mind. I felt like I covered that pretty extensively. When it comes to streamers making things up and spreading misinformation, that comes from them hearing the terms and then not understanding their origins. There aren't several ways to interpret these roles, maybe outside of seeing Illari or Zen as an MS rather than FS. If a steamer says Lucio is a Flex Support, they're just wrong because they don't have the information available to them. Most people who know these terms watch or play professional/organized OW.

[@Coach_Ocie]

I didn't tell people to stop using it because it's "for pro players". I made the statement I did about Main Healer and Off Healer because the terms themselves aren't useful and are actively unhelpful. There are good reasons as to why the frequency of such terms decrease as rank increases on ladder. They are present all throughout the ladder, but higher level players will almost always have a focus on the individual heroes as healing output is not what's important. Healing output does not define if a Support is strong or weak in a situation, that's what I am trying to communicate.

[@Nitro__Crate]

It pains me that not every single overwatch player will see this video.

[@sxympathy966]

1:43 Your TikTok comment section ESPECIALLY needs to hear this xD

[@zaky842]

Great video! Cool to learn some background on pro OW and terminology. Is Lucio so prevalent because of his speedboost primarily? Or is it more his mobility? I can imagine at the margins of skill having a slight speed boost over the other team must be hugely impactful. Also excited for the Juno video, curious to see if your opinion has changed on her now that she's been in play a little longer.

[@Dvot007]

This is the easiest explanation of ms/fs I’ve ever seen no joke

[@jbzeus6100]

Damn, my dumb ass has been playing lucio for years and i always thought that due to his low healing out put he was an off-healer/flex support lmfao

[@hillwoop9101]

Are you gonna make a video analyzing the DVA + Juno + Ana comp? Also, judging from this comp, would Juno be considered a main support? However I’ve seen some Juno Brig comps, so Juno would be a flex supp and Juno Ana is a double flex comp? or could Juno be the first hybrid supp between main and flex

[@DjNaste]

Juno/Ana would be considered a double flex support comp, similar to how Bap/Zen would be considered double flex support.

[@cruzerro3451]

It kinda reminds me of how when 2tanks was a thing there was a main tank and an off tank

[@YASLEY]

Very educational thank you

[@lunatic19900]

really good video :3

[@pjwf]

I feel like I watched this entire video and only heard Moira name when you listed them off in the beginning

[@lngaming8008]

Would u ever do a video breaking down a good Brigette player?

[@Coach_Ocie]

Yes, I will likely get to doing a Brig breakdown in the future.

[@miningenjoyer42]

My goat uploaded

[@g_vost]

thats kinda funny, i ended up with an essentially main support hero pool due to meta happenstance (brig/LW/kiri/mercy). i tried playing as ana from ow1 s4 (i was silver lol) til moth meta, rode the meta on mercy and brig (up to diamond, also lol), then just stayed as a brig main after role lock where i kinda let my rank float at mid masters til today. maybe id still be an ana player if i didnt ride the meta, but then again i really enjoy playing her, LW, and esp brig. like as much as i wanna call the main/flex support dichotomy arbitrary, i cant argue with the fact that i seem to really enjoy main support synergy without really forcing myself into it

[@sageX735]

watched this during a 12 min q time ty

[@cnaizhen]

Good video. The categorization of "main" and "flex" support is simply a reflection of poor hero balancing. In any other game with decent heroes/skills balancing, you will not have such a long lucio/brit dominance that you categorize heroes based on frequency of use.

[@Erwin0550]

yayyyyy ocie uploaded

[@-aku2805]

i always knew which supports were main and which were flex but i thought it was just based on the skillsets required for each support type main supports are less aim-intensive and their healing is usually easy and consistent to apply flex supports require more aim in general but they have more options for dealing damage than main supports i had no idea it was based on proplay

[@rileyhayes2497]

Great video. Used to play tier 3 overwatch back in the day and this falls completely in line with what I learned as a MS player. Still trying to figure out if Juno is a MS or a FS though. Thoughts?

[@thenewmissinglink8501]

Man i really want to see juno be some sort of lucio alternative in pro play. Seeing brig and lucio all the time makes me sick 😭😭😭.but i do understand why they are played.

[@vilocus5986]

just watch owcs korea, they play Juno a ton, and by the top teams as well.

[@catboykay]

everytime you pronounce her name as “ILL-ari” an angel loses their wings

[@will-tani]

So my available comps are Luciother, Brigother, and Bruciless?

[@Vuden13]

The best top level video

[@b4bywizard]

You will leave my Dark Lord alone!

[@frodo1488]

2:09 yo PLEASE give me a dreamkazper warning before putting that clip on

[@Coach_Ocie]

Honestly I have no idea who he is and had to look him up to figure why people were commenting about him. This period of OWL was far before my time.

[@bigbirdbirdbird]

new ocie video im frothing at the mouth

[@Lexa14]

as a mainsupport player i still refuse to play bap lmao

[@Lasszone]

u have to flex sometimes

[@bink97]

refusing to play Bap and wanting to rank up is crazy lol. he’s so good

[@robertbenato845]

Why refuse to play bap? He's so strong and to be honest probably always will be

[@kaheim1599]

@@robertbenato845wants to play mercy Moira probably

[@Champe19]

Skill issue

[@rxy3699]

Can you explain why Life Weaver is considered a Main Support? Is it because his playstyle is similar to Mercy, so thats the kind of player you would want playing him?

[@Coach_Ocie]

LW is an MS that is usually played alongside Illari or Baptiste and is used in slow Sig compositions to bail someone out. We've also seen LW used to petal a pharah into the sky and enable her on Circuit royale. He has only been used in super niche situations as a suprise strat, and he has always been played by the MS player. Two notable examples being Rakattack and Ch0rong.

[@rxy3699]

@Coach_Ocie ahhh okay. I've seen the LW + Pharah combo, but couldn't remember the other support he was played with. But it makes sense he's played with Illari or Bap on circuit. Guess I'm still trying to fully understand the man vs flex difference but this helped clear it up! Thanks! ^-^

[@cornolio_]

awesome sauce video yet again

[@strwberylmnade]

hi! great video :D this is something i've been wondering about for a while, doesn't it make more sense to have your main support play zen/illari and flex support on bap? most comp swaps you would make on double flex maps would be to swap the zen for a lucio (swapping backlines on a pokey map for a sig on wheels or a brawlier ram) or to swap the zen for brig if your backline is getting dove too much, so doesn't it just give more flexibility for fs to stay on bap the whole time?

[@senor135]

thoughts on double main support? i believe SSG / London have played lucio+bap, no?

[@Coach_Ocie]

Baptiste is a Flex Support

[@senor135]

@@Coach_Ocie oh yea lol, my bad. brain fart i guess.

[@janbazuine6636]

I believe the only time we have seen double main is goats (during goats these classifications dont really exist because 3 supports) and joats where junkerqueens self heal can make brig lucio work

[@tymunster]

Shoulda brought up Gangnamjin as a player you know is a flex support that'd be really funny

[@NotGedas]

Keeping it a buck i think asking broadly for a fat healing sup to be paired with a low healing sup is effective in ranked because it’s quick and unspecific it accounts for hero pool variation more than asking a random player for a particular optimal support, Supports one trick a lot so if you got a hero inside a broader group that can more or less fill a need for higher healing or utility match to match, personally id like you to play that one. I’d say most ppl that go for “off healer” “main healer” just wanna get that dynamic sorted quickly even if they are aware organized play prioritize categorization based on effective play time and practice although i think it should be completely fine for different terminology to sprout on the ranked environment to account for their differences

[@advikdeshmukh805]

Not Ocie making yet another video to explain to people the difference between main and flex supports 💀

[@Vergilcore]

Main supports: Ana, Kiriko, Baptiste Sub Supports: Lucio, Zenyatta, Lifeweaver Mercy: Mercy

[@TrollDude3]

As casual who knows nothing about pro play, based on what I have experienced in game, main supports are annoying to kill, and flex supports are annoying to kill when they have CDs. Also, main supports generally make killing flex supports more annoying.

[@Al-hb6uj]

PGE on eich is generational.

[@mrbubbles8690]

Main supports (IMO) objectives and playstyles help boost and enable their team, without really doing too much offensive value, mercy weaver brig and lucio. Mains upports really just focus on supporting the team through various boosts, like speed heals or damage boost, which is why Juno would be main support, also fitting in to why juno is played with a flex support in korea rn. Flex supports can be way more offensive and DEBUFF the enemy, while main supports focus on BUFFING their team, and enabling. Healing is a non factor with what the supports are classified as. Moira is hard to place, but is just a flex support because you would always play her with lucio, a main support

[@TR-ju5re]

Didnt he just state the hero kits and characteristics do not classify main vs flex?

[@_nahwhat]

Under that definition, Kiriko is a main support. But she isn't.

[@thechknnuggetgod1709]

Great vid