Why Tanking in the NBA is a Poor Man's Strategy

Debating whether tanking in the NBA is actually a viable strategy or doomed from the start (*editing credit: Alon Ginz)
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[@samueldeblaw9677]

you got the formula wrong. tanking, drafting well and good player developement is the cheapest way to get a star. teams that tank are after a star player. any championship run must start with star players. they see it as the foundational piece to building. a lot of teams who tank are able to get star players so it does to some degree work. the fact that they are incompotent at finishing the team building part has no bearing on the fact that the strategy works,

[@nomercyinc6783]

the league isnt a cheap owners sport. cheap owners dont deserve team ownership. look at the angels with mike trout. shit franchises wont ever get improved by the players. bad admin will never improve

[@Logistics_Sandar]

No sir … Your highest draft pick isn’t guaranteed to be a star player … There are so many draft bust in the NBA it’s ridiculous… Kwame brown … Anthony bennet … I’m sure there’s more … I can’t remember of the top of my head… Sure there are some legitimate draft picks who were drafted high … But guys like Luke and Jokic were drafted low .. very low … Check your facts…

[@web_khun5430]

@@Logistics_Sandar luka went 3 moron

[@pgiivanlennardesguerra8300]

@@Logistics_Sandar luka is drafted 3rd by the atlanta hawks, tanking or sucking for a year give you better odds to draft on higher pick. Thats why teams who have great front office tank on the right time to get a chance to get their guy. Like this next season you can see teams that will tank for cooper flag. The one who made the video mistakes tanking to incompetence, the teams that he stated are incompetent enough not to build around on the talent they get.

[@Jean0987654321]

Unless you're the Spurs

[@warwolf88]

their problem now is getting players good enough to sorround wemby

[@BrandonWhatTheF]

​@@warwolf88hopefully they don't waste his youth. The Spurs really got a chance at another dynasty fr

[@logicGatekeeper]

or the Thunder

[@theroyalmediator2658]

​@logicGatekeeper That's what I was going to say. OKC built their team through the draft too. And didn't Memphis do the same? Weren't they the #2 seed in the West before Ja's suspension and following injury?

[@MrE_]

Or the mavs

[@HARTTG]

Idk about y’all but the Mavs tanking last month of the season and draft D.Lively was REALLY BIG

[@JamesL0717]

Yep. That tanking worked wonders for the Mavs. No shot they go to the finals without Lively.

[@kylewilliams8028]

I don't think they intentionally tanked. They tried to make the playoffs, and just failed. Luckily for them, it just worked out for them.

[@mr.kwamid-86_43]

@@kylewilliams8028 🤨

[@NikoStark1]

@@kylewilliams8028they literally intentionally tanked because their pick would not be theirs if they won more games. They paid a fee of $750k for it too

[@JamesL0717]

@kylewilliams8028 Not sure if this is some kinda joke that's going over my head, but no, Dallas definitely tanked the last two games. Luka only played 13 minutes and 0 minutes in the last two games. Kyrie played neither. NBA actually fined Dallas for the tanking.

[@Arponare]

Detroit isn't tanking. They're just that bad.

[@ScuffTuff]

It’s sad cause they actually have some really good talent, they just don’t know how to build the team around them. Cade has the potential to be a top 5-10 player someday. Duren could be the next Dwight Howard which would be crazy since it’s been so long since we had a generational rim protector like that. Thompson is also an elite defender with dpoy potential. They just need to figure out how to help these guys improve and build out a roster around them. They need better floor spacing and anyone who can make a meaningful impact on offence other than just Cade.

[@user-sn1ib2sd4m]

​@ScuffTuff they just need a couple good vets to get em winning and give em confidence. Monty needs to do a better job coaching em. I like theire young guys. All the ones you named 😂 they got alot of potential

[@TheRoseBoy11]

Tanking is the definition of "high risk, high reward". For every Spurs/Thunder there's at least 5 other Pistons rebuilding failures.

[@balthorpayne]

And all of those teams sit around like broke people with lottery tickets saying "See??? That person won so we can too."

[@NikoStark1]

@@balthorpayneand what about the mid teams lol? They keep being mid and not going anywhere. Look at the Bulls mid stars lol. What did they do? Nothing. Is your goal to win a championship or try to get to the playoffs when you know you can’t even win 2 games lol. Great plan

[@balthorpayne]

@@NikoStark1 Mid teams stay mid due to FO. The Bulls are not completely terrible, but they rely on an offense that lacks shooters (our best shooters were all injured...Zo, Zach, and PWill) as well as a midrange savant who slows the game down in Demar. Add in Vooch being expected to defend in a way he isn't good at and we suffered on both ends. These problems are not difficult to solve, AKME just doesn't want to trade people for whatever reason. The Bulls are an example of mid by design not by chance. A lot of bad teams don't have the talent we have and we are a few smart trades away from being playoff bound every season. From there, the team needs to either get lucky in a draft or wait for some star to be on the trade block like Haliburton was. That scenario is more realistic than hoping we draft our way out of our bad decisions.

[@NikoStark1]

@@balthorpayne Mid teams stay mid. That’s the only thing that matters. Ain’t no way KD is coming to a mid team, or any other star player! And you’re not winning without the star player. So the only way to get a star player is to draft a star player, and the highest chance to draft a star player is to draft top 5! This is simple math. It’s not complicated. Bulls are terrible. And not terrible from a wins/losses standpoint, they are terrible considering the future! They will not win a chip in next 10 years. And what is the point of playing? It’s to win. So what are we talking about here?

[@rapgodreloaded9259]

@@balthorpayne I feel bad for real Bulls fans. Your team has to be lucky by acquiring a star or draft well. They have a better chance to be playoff bound.

[@zenkresnik]

Tanking itself isn't the problem. It's the over reliance on the top pick saving the franchise. Tanking is supposed to be putting yourself in a position where you're not good enough to be competitive because you're choosing to spend your time developing projects instead while finding pieces that fit in the draft.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Exactly, a lot of people fail to see that

[@michaelahurt]

10 players account for 82% of championships in the past 45 years Teams "over rely" on finding a guy to save the franchise because that's how it works 80% of the time. Now I'm not saying you draft Okafor when you have Embiid, but reaching for fit over clearly better prospects is equally as stupid. Especially when we don't know 1) how the league is going to change 2) what skills a player will add 3) how a missing piece you acquire later (including coaching) will suddenly make everything fit That last one happens _all_ the time. And it's why NBA GM's don't force picks based on short term needs. Plus you can always trade a good player

[@zenkresnik]

@@michaelahurt ...so from the word "fit" you think I mean draft the fit based on position. "Best fit" is subjective and situational. The best "fit" for your team is what you think your team needs. If you think someone will be a superstar and that's what you need, go for it. Not every team that drafted a superstar knew that the player they picked would turn into one and there are plenty of teams that had a superstar in the making already and intentionally tried to draft the perfect co-star(s) for them. Over relying on one person to save them means they're making bad decisions to find a superstar. Then *IF* they finally show up the team *starts* building, and waste years of that superstar career trying to find pieces instead of developing something worthwhile as they tanked.

[@Cognonaught]

The pistons are bad because they're bad, and they're bad without hope for the future because of the draft lottery. This is a nothing burger of a video. You could easily say "the NBA implemented a draft lottery so tanking is bad now" and your entire point is complete. The question is, are the Pistons actually tanking, or have they just been the worst team in the league and the league steps on the back of their head with a lottery system. Detroit isn't a sought after place to live, there are no incentives for any players to come and play in detroit. If anything, these small market teams are a case study in why the lottery is bad for the league.They should heavily fine and dissuade deliberate tanking, fine teams for resting players too much on either end if the product (any particular game of basketball) is the concern. If the Pistons had Paolo Banchero or Wemby, are they this bad? Or should the salary cap be removed, perhaps? Like, what incentive could the Pistons give a multimillionaire to come and play for them in FA other than more money than the next guy? Cap inherently favors warmer places, places with better tax codes, etc. Tanking is the "poor man's strategy" but why is there a "poor man" in a game full of billionaire owners if NOT because of the lottery?

[@azralia4265]

76ers: Trust the Process! The Process: Ben Simmons

[@DetroitSportsFanSince2002]

Trust me I hate when my team tanks too 😔

[@warwolf88]

I would rather they play their ass off and lose then half ass it the whole season

[@theroyalmediator2658]

@@warwolf88 You think the PLAYERS aren't trying to win? I don't think the Pistons PLAYERS wanted that record losing streak.

[@fastbreakreport]

Has tanking in the NBA actually worked? yes look at OKC and the Spurs right now. the 02-03 Heat wouldn't have gotten D.Wade if they didn't and it was enough to get them a championship 3 years later. The whole point of tanking is to add young talent at a price you can afford because most NBA teams are not in big markets like LA, Miami, or NY. So if they're bad....they basically have to tank. The point on tanking is that if you want to tank, you better be good at drafting.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Any you better hope to get lucky

[@listo393]

Raptors, Bucks, and Nuggets would like a word lol

[@michaelahurt]

​@@And.One.Hoops1but you need luck either way. The only question is do you want 1/36 odds or 1/268 Only 20% of #1 picks are MVP's. Only 4% of 2-5 picks (from 1980 to 2018) are MVP's But outside the top 5 that drops to 0.37%

[@John-qm7hj]

Dont spit facts or else hes gonna PMS all over you like he did to this long comment thread in here, hes gonna size you up in real life too​@michaelahurt

[@burekevan]

I think the sixers did irreparable damage to embiid the way they handled his first couple years - maybe it was part of his personality anyway and they brought out the worst but i feel like letting him sit and not really caring if they won or lost warped his perspective of success

[@nomercyinc6783]

embiid hurt himself and the team didnt cause those injuries. its embiids fault it took him 3 years to get through a season

[@user-sn1ib2sd4m]

That's why he crumbles everytime the playoffs come around, he's allergic 😂

[@michaelahurt]

Agree. The culture in the building certainly wasn't a healthy one from what I've heard But Embiid also has had some specific holes in his game regardless of the injuries and overall attitude

[@pgiivanlennardesguerra8300]

@@michaelahurt embiid is not a guy who accepts the blame when his team fails, he will try to point it on other direction.

[@michaelahurt]

@@pgiivanlennardesguerra8300 Agree. But he could have had every intangible, he still couldn't pass well enough to punish double teams until this season

[@standardyeepz]

when you’re a small market team you don’t have much choice.. what are they gonna do? sign free agents? nobody wants to go to detroit. they have to draft well

[@John-qm7hj]

Exactly, even if they had the money to pay for a superstar, superstars want to go to a big city like LA or Miami or they want to go to a contender like the bucks, too bad some people are dense and don't have that kind of understanding

[@ScroopyHoopers]

Unless you’re San Antonio, Houston, OKC, Orlando, etc…

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Have any of them won yet? That remains to be seen

[@boozeman4749]

​@@And.One.Hoops1didn't the Spurs tank for T.D?

[@And.One.Hoops1]

No, David Robinson was out for the season with an injury and were riddled with injuries throughout the season. Just happened to be a year in which a generational talent was coming into the draft and they got the #1 pick

[@boozeman4749]

@@And.One.Hoops1 I don't know I'm a Spurs fan and I've seen a lot of old Spurs fans say that we tanked for Duncan but you might be right though I wasn't around back then.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

The conspiracy theory is Robinson wasn’t actually injured, but that’s all hogwash. I’m sure the Spurs started focusing more on losing when they saw they didn’t have a chance without Robinson, but they didn’t create some fake injury to Robinson because they knew Duncan was about to enter the draft. Their best players just got injured at the best possible time

[@alanrussette2819]

I genuinely don't believe the Pistons were trying to tank this year. I think they were just bad. When you look at the losing streak, you could see them busting their tails to win.

[@michaelahurt]

Yeah, they 100% did not tank this year. In 21-23 absolutely but this past year was just a bad combination of horrendous coaching, terrible injuries, and an ill-conceived and thin roster

[@bryanzazaian4747]

Pistons fan here. We aren’t tanking. We weren’t in years past either. We are just genuinely THAT bad.

[@michaelahurt]

Tf are you talking about? We intentionally lost for 3 straight seasons. We benched Cade Cunningham in 23 to get Victor 2020 and 2024 weren't intentional though. Just a ton of injuries and no depth in 24 But Detroit is a perfect example that it's all random. - The Bad Boys were built by tanking, getting Isiah Thomas. - The Going to Work team was built from the middle via free agency. (Also the least replicable title team that will ever exist.) - The post G2W teams under Dumars and SVG unsuccessfully tried to build from the middle - The tanking approach in the 2020s is still TBD. Albeit not going great

[@bryanzazaian4747]

@@michaelahurt bro I’ll always love my Pistons but we are objectively the most poorly ran organization in all of pro sports. Since the “rebuild” began in 2020 we’ve accumulated a win percentage of 0.303. Our combined win total over the past 3 years (54) was eclipsed by 4 teams in this season alone (Celtics, Thunder, Nuggets, Timberwolves). We haven’t won a playoff game in 16 years and have amassed ONE winning season during this span (44-38 in 2016). If you wanna say we tanked the year Cade got injured, fine. But teams around the league lose key players all the time and still rarely field THIS embarrassing of a product year in and year out. The ineptitude through which we’ve suffered over the past 5 seasons is practically unheard of. This franchise will forever flounder in mediocrity until Gores sells the team or the league forces him out (which unfortunately will likely never happen).

[@tdhharris]

It is hard to use the Lakers as an example of not tanking when they have the ability to throw away all their draft picks in trades because free agnates walk out of small market teams leaving them with nothing to play in big markets.

[@will-sully]

Exactly. Teams like the Lakers/Knicks/Heat will never need to rely on the draft as they'll always be free agent destinations. For small market teams often the draft is the ONLY viable way to make the roster better or grab that future superstar.

[@chrisschaeffer9661]

Yeah Rich teams like the Lakers Strategy is have Sterns Refs Rig Titles for You like Kobe and Shaq did in 2000 and 2002. Cause Hollywood will always attracted the Divas. Looking Good is Most Important.

[@jakeogroton]

I think a great way to dissuade tanking would be that the bottom 2 teams in each conference are barred from getting top 5 draft picks through the lottery this would make the bottom 3-4 teams in each conference compete with each other for the best lottery chances instead of what team can lose the best, this would also help keep good teams from scalping high draft picks from desperate bad teams via trade by adding more uncertainty into what the draft numbers will be.

[@supraptoutomo1638]

NBA should implement a promotion-degradation system. Once it's implemented, no team wants to lose. We can debate about the details later but IMO, promotion-degradation system is the best system to be implemented to fix this so-called tanking strategy.

[@aisosaobano7038]

The issue with this is how the league is structured. If the g league was an actual respectable 2nd division then it would work but unfortunately it isn’t. This makes it feel like the only way to penalizing teams for tanking is taking away the draft picks after x amount of years (preferably 2). Along with giving a huge financial fine to the owners of said teams. Unfortunately that will most likely never happen anytime soon.

[@Joshua_23]

@@aisosaobano7038 it also doesn't work with a country as big as USA, Canada and Australia. lower leagues whether it be basketball, rugby or soccer in Europe have less money but getting transport to another corner of the country isn't an issue in let's say England, but it will be if you're going from LA to NYC, Toronto to Vancouver, Melbourne to Perth etc, not enough funds to go around. and as you said the 2nd tier isn't respectable since bball has a smaller population then a more popular sport like soccer

[@bball3048mm]

you mean like euro soccer? If so I agree.

[@melatonin12]

The best g league team is miles below the worst nba team

[@mr.sagittarius_king161]

Tanking is bad strategy if you got a poor front office or organization if you know your draft picks and you have a competent front office and staff in the organization, there’s nothing wrong with it to me. We gotta stop with this narrative that turn it down means you’re gonna stink for 16 years like the Sacramento Kings did, there’s too many examples of doing it the right way and sometimes yeah you got a tank look at the Dallas Mavericks. They tanked the 2023 season and Derek lively and he’s been an impact player on their run to the finals put more context into this the Chicago Bulls keep trying to compete now and they’re only getting into the play in tournament. Their ceiling is a first round exit may be the Chicago Bulls need to employ tanking to get a blue chip prospect that could change the direction of the franchise, I can make a legitimate argument that the Detroit Pistons as much as they stink currently if they nail their free agents this summer and make the right trades they could be something of a player or a playoff team and in my opinion, they are ahead of the Chicago Bulls because they have a franchise guy in Cade Cunningham who do the Bulls have as their franchise guy I’m just saying

[@pikafan7863]

Tanking is only as good as your ability to scout talent

[@TheHamburglarHelpster]

Tanking isn't bad every team has to rebuild at some point

[@abdesselemelhassouni281]

I feel that, for many franchises, tanking is not a strategy, it’s a letter to Santa ( i wish a generational player). During the tanking process, you need to establish a system not let young players fight each other to see who will get an extension.

[@aaronpeters6209]

Just depends on when/who you tank for. If you don't have all-nba 1st/2nd player, Then tanking for a potentially generational talent makes sense. Spurs will likely end up happy their choice to suck in 2022/23 season. Wouldn't fault tankothon teams for Lebron, AD, Zion either. But - to your point - poorly managed teams who don't scout will have trouble getting anywhere. One example you didn't bring up.was Atlanta selecting Doncic at #3, only to give him away to Dallas. Huge franchise altering decision. However, perhaps they would have just wasted away Doncic's talent. Long story short, there's argument to be made. Tanking isn't necessarily a bad strategy, It's just the "best option" for poorly managed teams. Especially smaller market ones, who will have trouble attracting big free agents.

[@balthorpayne]

A perpetual tank like buying lottery tickets and letting the $20 you win every now and then justify your strategy just because you know someone who won $2000. Meanwhile you could have spent more time upgrading your career rather than spending time and money on tickets hoping for luck.

[@rini214]

At the end of the day, there are multiple strategies to building a team. Tanking is a viable strategy. Like it or not. That said, it's extremely damaging to the franchise, players, coaches etc when it fails and it's hard to reverse course.

[@mrvxg4820]

Tanking only works if there is a generational talent available that year, which is rare. Making trades is the move(s) that turns teams into champions.

[@QuiteStorm2.0]

It’s a necessary method to put your franchise in a better position

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Not when history shows that it rarely works especially with flattened lottery odds

[@pgiivanlennardesguerra8300]

@@And.One.Hoops1 then what is your plan to get better if you are a small market team? hope for a free agent? you really need to tank and get your odds better to draft for a good player even if its a late lottery as long as you have a chance to draft higher.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

You have to improve your scouting to really hit on your picks REGARDLESS of where they land, make smart, calculated trades, and focus on player development. Just hoping to get lucky year after year is not a strategy

[@listo393]

Raptors, bucks and Nuggets all didn’t and won titles while others are tanking year after year and getting nowhere

[@michaelahurt]

​@@And.One.Hoops1 Except there's no such thing as "improving your scouting" The guys who drafted Jokic, Draymond, Giannis will tell you they had no clue those guys would be that good. It was just luck. You say develop them. Those same GM's will tell you they didn't do anything. The players (Steph, Jokic, Giannis) set and created the culture and developed themselves Now you _DO_ need smart trades but that's _after_ you get the guy. But the superstar is never the missing piece.

[@SpeedHomeAttack]

As of recently it looks like tanking only works for good teams having an off year. Pelicans tanked once and got Zion Warriors had 1 bad season and got the 2nd pick Spurs intentionally got bad and landed Wemby Then there’s this year where the Hawks were able to claim the 1st pick

[@mohamedabdourahman9845]

I think there should be a rule that if you’ve not made the play in tournament for more than six consecutive seasons then you have to forfeit your 1st round pick as you have not shown yourself to be competent on building a team

[@michaelahurt]

So your solution is to try to make the team move to another city? That's f**king stupid

[@mohamedabdourahman9845]

@@michaelahurt huh??? I said forfeit a first round pick.

[@michaelahurt]

@@mohamedabdourahman9845 if you take away a bad team's hope -- aka their first round pick -- you might as well just move the team because the fans will stop caring And if it results in teams signing bad contracts to try to compete then the fans will really stop caring The draft and the _chance_ of hope is the only thing 30% of the league's fans have

[@snipersLock]

Why tank when you can develop your whole team. Play everyone and increase their value.

[@liferealgood]

From a Knicks fan that had the worst record in the Zion draft trust me tanking is stupid. Especially when the league controls the ping pong balls. However, the tanking to get Luka I have to look at that take. That doesn’t sound right at all. I think that was the year KP tore his ACL and he was voted an allstar. They just suffered after the injury. They didn’t go into the season with 14 wins in mind.

[@dominiclee5786]

Getting the first pick or a top 5 pick don’t mean anything if you don’t draft wisely. But then again you can’t tell whether the one you drafted will become a franchise player or a mediocre player or a bust.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Exactly, it’s a crapshoot

[@ArmyLT09]

It honestly depends on who’s in the draft. Years like Wemby, Zion, Wiggins, AD, Oden/Durant, Lebron, and Yao in the last 20 years were reasonable “tank” seasons. Any chance you have to get a potential generational talent, you need to put the best percentages in your favor to acquire them. Now most of these generational talents lived up to the hype but very rarely such as Wiggins don’t. When the Bulls won the number 1 pick and took Rose they ended up winning the East, won MVP, and made them easily a top 2-3 in the East until he got hurt. There was no generational talent when the Sixers got the number 1 pick all those times. So it definitely depends on if there’s a generational talent. Bulls should’ve tanked for Wemby that year, I don’t think it’s even debatable. In addition when you draft a generational talent you also make your team a much more attractive destination for superstars

[@seanvezele3104]

The Rockets are a perfect example that tanking works. It also helped the mavericks less season. Tanking is only a bad strategy is you have no strategy or are a bad franchise. Drafts between 2012-2017 were also filled with busts in the top 10, in the modern landscape tanking is great.

[@madxD144]

Tank to get young core, then get a good free agent to jump start the process

[@And.One.Hoops1]

How often has that worked?

[@sodalangstson9438]

​@And.One.Hoops1 Timberwolves king dallas Knicks houston are all examples of team that were at bottom in last few year and trade free agency has helped them get in playoff may not have led not them championship but put them in on the path to compete

[@mr.z9309]

@@And.One.Hoops1mavericks, golden state, heat, 🤣 bro… you really just asked that

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Were any of those teams really tanking? They hit on some picks and built the team from there. They weren’t intentionally trying to be bad in the hopes to get a top pick

[@mr.z9309]

@@And.One.Hoops1 mark cuban himself said that Dallas tanked for Luka… Bro, you need to do some research

[@paulusclaudiusmaximus4912]

You tank.. you got number 1 pick.. then its a bust. Thats generally what happened to Philly.

[@darryldennis3487]

The NBA hates the Pistons… they gave them mercy with #1 pick in 2021 but I can’t remember the last time they got a top 3 pick

[@spectartacus]

So, luck plays a big part in team building?

[@michaelahurt]

Well it's only 99% of team building so probably not worth mentioning If you're a well run organization you'll just draft multiple time MVP's at 7 or 15 or 41 because you're so much smarter than everyone else. (But not too much smarter so that you still make mistakes like drafting Emmanuel Mudiay, trading Donovan Mitchell for Trey Lyles, drafting Epke Udoh and James Wiseman, and drafting Jabari Parker and Thon Maker. Only sometimes you have perfect scouting but other times it's really bad.)

[@NikoStark1]

Imagine this video IF Mavs win a championship. We all know the majority of the reason for the chip would be Luka and Kyrie. But I’m not even talking about Luka being the 3rd overall pick. Nah, I’m talking about Dereck Lively, who the Mavs famously TANKED last few games to keep the pick. And were basically charged $750k (if I remember correctly) for tanking on purpose. Now we get to the present, where the only game Mavs lost to the Wolves (ANOTHER team that was lead by #1 pick) was the game where Dereck didn’t play. And if they do win the chip, there is a high probability that that wouldn’t happen if they didn’t tank and get Dereck Lively as a pick. But in either case of who wins the chip, the main player on the team will be the top 3 pick and the main reason that team won the championship. Also, Michael Porter Junior was gonna be undisputed number 1 pick before the issues with his back. Speak the truth!

[@mksee66]

it doesn't work? look at the spurs, traded murray and white to tank for wemby. thunder traded PG, westbrook then tanked to get chet, jalen williams. tanking doesn't guarantee success but it works if the team is good at drafting.

[@juiceman8108]

There is a reason why the teams they win chapionships do, they have a well run organization and there are only a few of these each decade

[@michaelahurt]

Mmm sure that and top 15 players in NBA history Exactly how many well run organizations have won titles without a top 15 all-time player? Like two?

[@davyunwashington3613]

Tanking is good unless done correctly

[@MindAndMyth]

It works just fine aslong as you have excellent scouts and development systems. Grabbing a superstar isnt enough, you also need to get the 2nd guy, need to get those roleplayers, need to get the rotation players. Most orgs have had a superstar, but can they build a team?

[@theroyalmediator2658]

EXACTLY. Especially for smaller-market teams where it's hard to attract free agents, it's VITAL to get them in the draft and then put good/great pieces around them. And while this CAN be done through trades/free agency, it's IDEALLY done through the draft because those will be the cheapest players. With the new luxury tax rules, it's harder and harder to add multiple high-level players through free agency, so scouting and drafting well becomes SUPER important.

[@cachemilli8062]

Moral of the story: maintain winning culture at all times

[@NikoStark1]

And never win 😂

[@cachemilli8062]

@@NikoStark1 Not sure what you mean. Even when you dont win if you have that culture of always going for the W you will eventually get lottery luck either way

[@NikoStark1]

@@cachemilli8062 no you’re not. Your way could take a hundred years

[@cachemilli8062]

@@NikoStark1 could take 100 either way

[@NikoStark1]

@@cachemilli8062 no it couldn’t. Probably of either case is majorly on lower teams.

[@TheKing60210]

As a Wolves fan. It just depends on the culture

[@soulreaper1461]

Background songs you choose are unbearable. I endured as I could but the one that starts at 08:00 is simply impossible, I had to stop the video.

[@601JohnnyRingo]

What’s the use of tanking when you’re not guaranteed a high pick like the nfl

[@michaelahurt]

That you essentially need an MVP to win a title; 20% of #1 picks become MVP's; and for 25 teams the only way to get an MVP is to draft him. The odds are bad either way but 1/36 is better than 1/268

[@OH_MY_DOGGG]

It looks like 1 in 10 years where you really should tank.

[@chrisschaeffer9661]

Fix the Free Agency going to LA because of Hollywood. Commissioners stop there Refs from RIGGING TITLES. FOR LA

[@BallinVlogs]

Detroit Pistons Got A Solid Team

[@nomercyinc6783]

the pistons season was one of the most embarrassing things ive ever seen. losing 29 games straight is fuckin terrible

[@will-sully]

As a Pistons fan I'm certainly not going to disagree. But it still wasn't tanking though.

[@luniz4209]

Piston's aren't tanking though, they're just incompetent. They've acquired players via trade and free agency and they all sucked (except for Fontecchio)

[@will-sully]

Yep. Poor roster construction (too many bigs, zero shooting), gambles that haven't paid off (Wiseman, Bagley) and bad draft picks (Hayes over Haliburton). Not all bad teams are tanking, some are just doing a bad job of trying to be good.

[@michaelahurt]

They tanked for three seasons.

[@will-sully]

@michaelahurt They reset by trading Drummond and Reggie, and getting rid of Blake and DRose's contracts. It's been a rebuild since then fielding largely young players who haven't yet panned out. Tanking is deliberately trying to lose, Pistons have been trying to win but just doing a bad job of it.

[@michaelahurt]

@@will-sully Isn't "reset" just another word for tanking? If you go into the season with zero top 50 players you are tanking. If you give the ball to a 20 year old you know damn well you are going to lose a ton of games. In 23-24 there was a reason to think Cade could flirt with being an All-Star but if signing a 26 year old with a career scoring average of 9 PPG to be your #1 option is tanking then nothing is

[@luniz4209]

@@michaelahurt Tanking is losing games on purpose, period. There's no artificial "rules" like number of top 50 players. Pistons are never going to have multiple top 50 players anyway.

[@yodon6867]

Some of these NBA teams need to get rid of these analytic loving general managers. Realize what is the team really stands for like the Detroit Pistons stand for defense why you going to get a guy who shoot threes my brother play your history was defense and tough players San Antonio Spurs they keep on taking they not going nowhere with Wendy Atlanta Falcons get rid of Trae Young. The Sacramento Queens realize they going to Vegas

[@ThePenitentSquirrel]

Due to Randomization of Pick selection and the incredibly weak talent pools (outside of the top 3 picks in the NBA is usually terrible), tanking in the NBA is the nuclear option where you end up losing more than winning. Unless you the Spurs and are fortunate to really suck at the absolute best times. I wonder though, why can the NFL draft produce up to 10 quality starters in the most high impact sport in the world and yet basketball you get 1 or maybe 2.

[@burekevan]

football rosters are almost 4 times as large as NBA ones there just are more players in general - the talent is proportionally probably less in the NFL since it is almost impossible for 1 player to swing the fortunes of a team

[@ThePenitentSquirrel]

@@burekevan I think it comes down to the nature of the production of an athlete rather the simple arithmetic of X is more than Y. Basketball, and especially American Basketball, prioritizes the individual resulting in the vast majority of players coming into the league without the necessary adaptive role knowledge and therefore lacking the ability (and IQ) to contribute in any functional way (don't try and tell me you haven't seen how bad the majority of players are at inbound passing). In sports like Football or Hockey, your taught to prioritize the team and functional as kog in the overall performances which typically results in more specialized skills and overall higher IQ. Every kid coming into the league thinks their MJ (or whoever) when in reality they could be closer Steve Kerr (for ex.), every piece of their training went towards fueling this illusion (and reinforced by positive performance in weak amateur play), and this is what results in soo many terrible flops and misfires in the NBA draft and why on average you maybe get 2-3 guys and why most will be out of the league in 3 years.

[@JalDubber]

The tanking teams just don’t know how to scout, if i was the pistons i would’ve traded down for two top 8-18 picks

[@michaelahurt]

Sometimes. Like Sacramento and Clippers for a long time missed on just about every pick. But Detroit has drafted better the last 3 years than any three stretch in 30 years (93-96). Unfortunately you can only pick who is there. Ivey and Ausar will both be good and Cade will be an All-NBA player. All of them were the correct pick. Plus Duren. But you can't win if your four of your five best players go into the season with a combined three years of NBA experience.

[@classicslayer456]

Tanking was never an issue until the sixers bragged about it and ruined it for everyone else afterwards. It doesnt even work most of the time anyway.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Yep, exactly

[@will-sully]

Really lazy to focus so much on Detroit in this video. There's a big difference between simply being a poor/inexperienced team, and deliberately trying to lose 'as a strategy' to improve draft position. Pistons want to (and are trying to be) competitive, it just hasn't come together (yet) with the young core, plus there have been some ill-considered roster construction decisions and bad draft choices (Hayes over Haliburton). Still more optimistic of our future than I would be as a Bulls fan though ;)

[@michaelahurt]

They did tank for three years before 23-24 But they are symptomatic of a poorly run organization. I mean the GM didn't want to draft Killian Hayes but they drafted him; the GM didn't want to hire the coach -- and the coach didn't even want to coach -- but they hired Monty over both their objections; and then the coach was starting a player (Killian) the GM wanted to cut ... Just no leadership, no structure, too many voices, too many competing visions

[@will-sully]

@michaelahurt I don't think we're going to agree on the definition of tanking, but I'll certainly agree that Tom Gores and the leadership structure is the root of all the problems in Detroit.

[@harrislaurent429]

LAC made the Thunder and the BKLYN Nets made the Celtics 😭

[@AstralScourge]

spurs got wemby.....dallas got lively.....its worked for several teams lol this is goofy stuff

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Yes Lively is the reason for the Mavs being in the finals. Wemby is one of the few instances where it worked, but a big amount of luck is invoked when they had a 14% chance of getting him.

[@antihero8603]

Nice.

[@johndebono1870]

Do people use the Celtics as an example of successful tanking? If anything, the Celtics outsourced their tanking to the Nets.

[@And.One.Hoops1]

The Celtics never really tanked except for in the 13-14 season and they got Marcus Smart out of it

[@johndebono1870]

@@And.One.Hoops1 I know the Celtics were bad that season, but I think there is a difference between restarting and tanking. The fact it took one season before they traded for IT and immediately returned to being a playoff team suggests that there was never an intention to lose a bunch of games until Boston lucked into a superstar.

[@listo393]

Tanking is based on the faulty logic that higher draft picks = better team in the future. There's a reason guys like LeBron and Wemby are called "generational". I don't know the exact number, but it's at least greater than 50% of lottery picks don't even make it to a 2nd contract with the team that picked them. Realistically, the most notable form of tanking (Sixers) led to 1 elite player and a bunch of 2nd round eliminations. Meanwhile a team like the raptors (no players in rotation were lottery picks) and bucks (Brook was the only lottery pick) have titles to their name. What pro tankers don't recognize is that instituting a losing culture really weighs on your drafted players who've been playing to win their whole career. What pro tankers also don't realize is that what is just as important, if not more so, is culture and player development. You don't need 1st-top 5 overall picks to make a winner.

[@seanvezele3104]

What anti tankers are missing is that the purpose of tanking isnt always to draft a generational player, its also to draft an asset that can aid in the teams growth later. When a team tanks properly they take on players with bad contracts that could be attractive in the future while they develop their young talent, then trade them once a real winning culture is established. Its hard to establish a winning culture when the team has no means of winning, look at this years Pistons

[@listo393]

It's hard to establishing a winning culture when you have no means of winning...because you're tanking and throwing entire seasons in the toilet. The Pistons have been in the top half of the lottery for the last 5 years and the rebuild is going NOWHERE, and with Cooper Flagg and Cameron Boozer coming up in the 2 drafts after the coming one, will likely continue to go nowhere because of the lazy way of thinking that you can just bank off of talent rather than a synthesis of talent, coaching, scouting, and player development. Teams that have won titles were ones who maintained a strong culture, built with a competent organization all around, not ones that wasted entire seasons for players they MIGHT get and MIGHT work out. Also even the trading contracts model I'm not even sold on. The Thunder traded the Bertans contract along with Tre Mann, drafts picks, and cash for Hayward and that was a complete flop. The Blazers gave the best point of attack defender in the league to a contender in exchange for them to get off of 2 constantly injured guys that will do nothing for the blazers either as players or trade bait and a pick that won't convey for 5 years.

[@mr.kwamid-86_43]

YES!!! TANKING IS GOOD!!! TRY IT :^)

[@andrewkelly1337]

The idea of "NBA purgatory" is as annoying as it is popular. 2019 Raptors show it's easier to make a good team great than to make a bad team great

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Exactly

[@michaelahurt]

Yes so easy to trade for an MVP candidate. Teams are just giving those guys away. There were absolutely no extenuating circumstances in that case that made it a complete anomaly in NBA history. No superstar who hadn't played in a year refusing to re-sign with anyone who traded for him. No game winning jumpshot that hit the rim 18 times. No back up point guards shooting 57% on threes. No ACL or Achilles injuries to the best team. Just a blueprint that any team could execute. Build a solid roster then wait for a top 3 player to have a season ending injury he blames on his current team so he demands a trade, but he won't re-sign with any who trades for him, so all that means you can get him at 25% his actual value and not actually trade anything of value, then you just win a title with 10% odds because other better teams got injured and then after he leaves and you go back to purgatory I really don't know why more teams don't pursue that strategy. It's so much more reliable than just trying to draft an MVP with the #1 pick.

[@davidalba9]

I love how he never mentioned the spurs haha

[@NikoStark1]

Or wolves, or Mavs, or Magic… and if I recall correctly Tatum was #3 pick. He’s delusional

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Has it worked for the Spurs yet? That remains to be seen

[@jaycee11145]

He is delusional, he only thinks of the bad examples and never the teams that got their superstar and won a chip because of it​@NikoStark1

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Name the teams that truly tanked and won a championship. I’ll wait

[@NikoStark1]

@@And.One.Hoops1 just wait a week, I’ll tell you. Also, Jordan Bulls? D Wade’s Heat before LeBron Joined. Kyrie in Cleveland. (Don’t try to even insinuate they win if LeBron didn’t have Kyrie)! I named you 3. Now don’t try to move the goal post and hit me with “but but but” You asked for 1 I gave you 3! Now sit and wait. Wait I forgot about the Spurs. Also, ALSO! Aren’t you the one that keeps saying you rather be in the middle than tanking right???? So don’t contradict yourself guy! If we talking spades than let’s talk spades! We shouldn’t mention championships. We should talk which team is not better by tanking. Is Philadelphia not better now? Is Magic not better now? Is Cleveland not better now? They are all better than Bulls and they all tanked. That’s the actual point! They all above mid and Bulls still mid! Tanking doesn’t have to bring championships, it brings better basketball in the long run!

[@rapgodreloaded9259]

The Pistons weren't tanking they're just a bad team with very little talent.

[@princessdeliabautista7498]

Congratulations champion talaga great fun from Philippines country 🇵🇭🇵🇭🇵🇭❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@mr.z9309]

This Man already admitted to tanking actually working, he deleted the message but me and someone else have on record 😂 if yall want to know how smart this boy is, read the comments. He’s getting exposed

[@And.One.Hoops1]

Nobody deleted anything, stop crying

[@John-qm7hj]

Tanking does work, just because some teams get effed over from lottery luck doesn't mean it's a failure. That's how teams that are not LA Miami are gonna get good

[@mr.z9309]

@@John-qm7hj i told bro the Mavericks tanked to get luka and he didnt even that Mark Cuban himself said they tanked. Lol the Mavs are in the finals, cause they tanked to get their superstar 😂

[@John-qm7hj]

@@mr.z9309 they did tank for luka and fleeced the hawks to get him over Trae trash. After dirk retired, no superstar is going to Dallas willingly. And it's dumb to rebuild around someone who is mid unless your dreams are just fill seats Draft for 90perc of nba teams are the only way to truly be contenders

[@mr.z9309]

@@John-qm7hj yeah, homie doesnt know hes talking about tbh😂

[@momohirai064]

The Process failed.

[@raz_van__]

trust the process™️😅😂

[@user-um1zb5vl7t]

word

[@despy9600]

WOW TANKING DOESNT ALWAYS WORK? YOU HAVE TO DO OTHER THINGS? WOW NO WAI SO INSIGHTFULL

[@And.One.Hoops1]

You’re welcome!

[@warwolf88]

im against tanking it robs the fans

[@joeybernal1729]

I have in my life seen my team tank 3 separate times and its so far worked every single time. So this is all untrue. *laughs in Spurs fan*

[@And.One.Hoops1]

3 times huh? Can you name those 3 times?

[@joeybernal1729]

@@And.One.Hoops1 If you don't know are you even qualified to have this channel?

[@And.One.Hoops1]

It was a rhetorical question my guy. The Spurs have not tanked 3 times. If you say they tanked to get Tim Duncan then we’re done with this conversation

[@joeybernal1729]

@@And.One.Hoops1 It was more of a strategic tank. They didn't make any additions to the team that year except for old Dominique Wilkins, and the Robinson injury pretty much made them stop and think about Duncan immediately. Also, Pop made himself the head coach that same year and started instilling the system he would use for Duncan/Robinson combo, and seeing what role players would be useful. The other main point i make is: youre never going to convince a San Antonio fan that going after the number 1 pick is a bad strategy, no matter the cost.

[@HeyYouSA]

Tanking is bad for the sport

[@nnj1991]

Tell that to the Mavs

[@HeyYouSA]

@@nnj1991 Ok you have their contact info?

[@Jose-st3fq]

The nba rewards losing

[@And.One.Hoops1]

No they don’t, it’s why they keep flattening the lottery odds to disincentivize teams from tanking

[@Jose-st3fq]

@@And.One.Hoops1 remind me how the odds work for the worst 3 teams in the league? They should just change it back to every team that didn’t make the playoffs has the exact same odds

[@mydogsnameislucy768]

Funny this got uploaded today. I was just thinking how my rockets low key tanked better than a lot of teams. It was bleak there in the middle of it for a bit but we’re looking good faster than most expected. 😎

[@madeliakandmonroe2032]

I mean yes and no I would say tanking and even being unlucky in the lottery is better than being mid like the bulls are and have been doing, being mid in the nba results in more mid until those mid players decline and then you get diminishing returns in the long run. Beyond all though if your front office sucks you’re screwed regardless of getting lucky or being mid. If you’re mid with a good front office you can spin decent picks without needing to tank, if you tank and have a good front office even if you get unlucky you’re probably eventually be ok but it is more risky….. so in short terms ya you right you’ll have to build through the draft regardless but a #1 isn’t always a guarantee towards a good rebuild

[@Kyle22oifer]

Great video! God bless! Jesus Christ is King and saves and is the way! Psalms 62 - "Truly my soul finds rest in God; my salvation comes from him. Truly he is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken." Jeremiah 29:11 - "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

[@dalton7726]

Tanking doesn’t work. Flopping doesn’t work. Team hopping doesn’t work. Load management doesn’t work. Can’t cheat the game. God is always watching.